Regulation of Martial Arts Schools

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Something I thought of the other day while talking Kung Fu with some friends and training partners. Imagine if the federal government instituted a commision to oversee martial arts schools and gyms to insure they were teaching correctly. Basically an instructor would have to meet a set criteria and apply for a license from this commision to be able to teach.

The commision would preferably be made up of instructors from various disciplines of martial arts, and would have to be voted on and such.

I believe these would be the advantages:

1. Proof of lineage or training, perhaps through a test, in order to be certified to teach.

2. A distinction would have to be made between combat and performance schools, in other words, if you claim to teach combat training, prove that you can. If you are teaching only a performance art (Wushu or such) it must be advertised as such.

3. Hopefully would weed out some of the Bullshido schools that teach crap and brain wash students.

Disadvantages:

1. Just like everything else with the government, it would be more about making money than regulation and looking out for the common man.

2. A commision voted on can still be tainted, and who's to say the couldn't black ball an actual good instructor for personal reasons.

3. To much like socialism, we should be able to regulate our own, not have the government do everything, it simply is one more thing that eliminates freedom.

I know this will never happen, but if it did, what do you think would be the advantages and disadvantages of this?

[ginosifu]

I had this same thought some 20 years ago. However, They tried this in China back in the early 1900's and it has turned into todays Wushu. The masters of the early 1900's put together the Jing Wu system. A standardized set of forms, regulations etc. The Jing Wu era was run by Kung Fu teachers. Todays Wushu is run by the Government. It is not what it was back then, but todays China is pretty standardized and well run.

This same set of early 1900's Jing Wu people that migrated here just can't get it together. Big Egos and stubbornness will not let anyone put a standard system together. A lot systems came thru this Jing Wu era: Northern Shaolin, Eagle Claw, Mi Tsung Lohan, Praying Mantis. Even some of the Southern systems adhere to the Jing Wu sets. To make a long story short, there is too much freedom of expression in each of the systems and no one would stick to any one set of rules. If a Government takes over the martial arts it will push many kung fu peeps into teaching out of there garages and parks. Just because they will never kowtow to a government set of rules.

ginosifu

[SPJ]

1. wu shu

is standardized.

which is not good.

2. you place all the known people in each style in a research committe.

research, compilation, history, techniques---


these are good

3. civilian groups are more important then government sponsored programs.

chin woo, kuo shu international federation, local chapter, country chapter

they hold regular san shou for amateurs, college folks with various cups

these are good

4. regulate the schools or commission teachers

not good.

----

the windmill turns and turns

:eek:

[David Jamieson]

nope.

it will lead to a big pile of ****genized crap.

I like the weird and whacky variety of martial arts available including the existence of all the frauds etc etc.

It makes finding a real teacher that much more satisfying.

Besides, government regulation will lead to crap. It always does for the simple reason that governance is not always the answer. Sometimes it's about integrity and with martial arts, I believe that's exactly what it's about.

People without integrity aren't hard to find out even after only a couple of meetings, quite often in one. :)

[lkfmdc]

Based upon my experiences with the ny state athletic commission and also knowing WHO is behind a similar movement in NJ, I would state that we should all pray/sacrifice goats to make sure we are NEVER regulated.....

[hskwarrior]

If martial arts in the United States had to be regulated i'd just resort to how they did it in China back in the day and just go underground with it.

REGULATE THIS!!!!!

[sean_stonehart]

If martial arts in the United States had to be regulated i'd just resort to how they did it in China back in the day and just go underground with it.

REGULATE THIS!!!!!

Gotta agree with that.

[SPJ]

the windmill turns and turns

:eek:

it is like the wind. the wind/trend is coming and going. it could gear toward central control one day and gear toward civilian group another day.

I believe in laisez faire or let it be/go/do--

if you have kuo shu federation, all government schools and civilian schools may send students to compete, and may the best win.

if you own a civilan school, you sign up to the kuo shu fed as a local chapter, paying a nominal fee to be a member, you may send your students to compete, be it tao lu forms or san shou

so that not only government/city wushu team or school may compete

every one may participate

--

usually civilian schools or private schools are better than public institutions

oops, becoming political

---

:D

[TenTigers]

John Graden and NAPMA are really pushing for Gov't regulation.
On one hand, I would like to see mandatory backround checks to eliminate the kid touchers.
One the other hand, you just know that the guys that have the largest organizations will have the authority. This means TKD, Kempo, and McDojo owners will be making decisions.
Seriously, how can you put everyone in the same mold? Wing Chun has three forms, Northern Mantis and styles like Choy Li Fut may have over a hundred. Some styles have just one, and some have none.

[Lucas]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XwzlxgfiVW0/SabLJb3Wm6I/AAAAAAAAABI/BASwtx8QIWg/s400/Mc_Hammer_-_U_Can%27t_Touch_This.jpg

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Based upon my experiences with the ny state athletic commission and also knowing WHO is behind a similar movement in NJ, I would state that we should all pray/sacrifice goats to make sure we are NEVER regulated.....

We have a battle going on in West Virginia right now to get MMA legalized, unfortunately the current athletic commision are old thinking, mafia influenced idiots who do not want MMA legal because the Toughman contests are huge here and they don't want something else dipping into their cookie jar. So it goes to show what happens when you have idiots with too much power and authority.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Many combat sports have been regulated for ages: Boxing, Wrestling, Judo, fencing, kendo come to mind.

I don't think it will work outside of specific MA, I mean, a group to regulate ALL MA in terms of competition is one thing, but style certification is not really feasible.
A group that regulates teaching credentials with back ground checks and such would be a good step though.
Making sure teachers are safe ( criminal record check), have the basic courses liek first-aid and such, things like that.

[Almost A Ghost]

1. Proof of lineage or training, perhaps through a test, in order to be certified to teach.

The problem is that the people who are general interested in giving grace to people outside of their org/style are the biggest ego driven schmucks on the planet.

Hell, go look at the karate organizations out there awarding rank and titles to each other's instructors in what can only be described as a circle-jerk. Do you really want that happening in any government sanctioned capacity?


Hopefully would weed out some of the Bullshido schools that teach crap and brain wash students.

Even though those schools get under my skin, they do act as a crap-magnet for the karate-hippies.

[Drake]

How would we pay for that?

[sanjuro_ronin]

How would we pay for that?

How do boxing, wrestling and judo gyms do it now?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

How would we pay for that?

I think some of you are misunderstanding me. I am not for this, just a hypothetical of would it be good or bad and would it work. Paying for it would have to be figured out, probably with dues to the organization just like anything else, but again, this is all hypothetical.

[Northwind]

I agree that for most of TMA it's not a good idea. But also..."proof of lineage"? You know most lineages get blurry the further back you go unfortunately.

[bawang]

the chinese government should allow bareknuckle lei tai. then kung fu will regulate itself.

jingwu and wushu was wrong. it regulated forms. it regulated poses. chinese martial arts need to regulate and standarize fighting ability

[ginosifu]

the chinese government should allow bareknuckle lei tai. then kung fu will regulate itself.

jingwu and wushu was wrong. it regulated forms. it regulated poses. chinese martial arts need to regulate and standarize fighting ability

I like your thinking.

ginosifu

[ginosifu]

To allow Government to have control over rules and regulations is not a good idea. However, I think think we could benefit from a Kung Fu entity that would regulate tournaments / schools / backround checks etc etc.

Looking how we politely argue over everything here, how can kung fu in America ever get regulated? We are the peeps that would be under it's regulation right? We can't even agree do disagree about even the most simple topics here on the forums.

If there would ever be a governing body for CMA it should be us. Who would be interested being part of a Kung Fu organization? They have tried over the years to create Kung Fu organizations, but none have ever really emerged with any coherency. How can we pool together something that our elders could not do for the past 40 years?

ginosifu

[Lucas]

anyone thinking about lumping all martial arts into the same category and trying to form a set of regulations that can be applied to all schools knows absolutely nothing about martial arts.....

with that said, who would listen to someone like that?

[mooyingmantis]

I agree that for most of TMA it's not a good idea. But also..."proof of lineage"? You know most lineages get blurry the further back you go unfortunately.

"Blurry"? How about non-existent? Try to seriously document any style (Chinese, Japanese, Korean or Okinawan) before 1850. "Traditional" Chinese Martial Arts go back maybe about 150 years. Before that it is mostly the stories of illiterate, self-promoting men. Today, TCMA is mostly in the hands of self-promoting men.

I wouldn't care to be a part of their politics. Been there, done that, learned from it!

[wenshu]

Imagine if the federal government instituted a commision to oversee martial arts schools and gyms to insure they were teaching correctly.

They already do
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_LZZ116SJC7Q/TXF2EyjZU-I/AAAAAAAABaY/46G-HD3X-qc/s640/nsor.JPG

[bawang]

"Blurry"? How about non-existent? Try to seriously document any style (Chinese, Japanese, Korean or Okinawan) before 1850. "Traditional" Chinese Martial Arts go back maybe about 150 years. Before that it is mostly the stories of illiterate, self-promoting men. Today, TCMA is mostly in the hands of self-promoting men.

I wouldn't care to be a part of their politics. Been there, done that, learned from it!

reliable traditional pole weapons go back 1000 years; reliable long range boxing records go back over 500 years; reliable short range boxing go back 300 years.


anyone thinking about lumping all martial arts into the same category and trying to form a set of regulations that can be applied to all schools knows absolutely nothing about martial arts.....

with that said, who would listen to someone like that?
northern martial arts are very uniform. its literally the same sh1t over and over again.

southern kung fu looks diverse but when they fight its all the same. thats vain and meaningless.

[Northwind]

reliable traditional pole weapons go back 1000 years; reliable long range boxing records go back over 500 years; reliable short range boxing go back 300 years.

"boxing" and verifiable historically-accurate lineage trees are two very different things.



northern martial arts are very uniform. its literally the same sh1t over and over again.

southern kung fu looks diverse but when they fight its all the same. thats vain and meaningless.

Wrong

[bawang]

ur moms wrong

[Northwind]

She sure is, but happily yours is sexy yum yum

[bawang]

yeah lineage cant be traced, but postures , concepts and techniques can in northern boxing. thats all that matters.

new lineages today are a problem because they have a tendency to make sh1t up. where in the past it was from faction politics.

in the past legitimacy and fame was decided by fighting. in today its by advertising. chinese martial arts need to regulate and purge itself

[mooyingmantis]

yeah lineage cant be traced, but postures , concepts and techniques can in northern boxing.

Agreed!


new lineages today are a problem because they have a tendency to make sh1t up. where in the past it was from faction politics.

If martial arts history tells us anything, it is that EVERYONE has had a tendency to make sh1t up. Yet, that is not a bad thing. Stagnancy causes death. New ideas promote growth and longevity.


in the past legitimacy and fame was decided by fighting. in today its by advertising. chinese martial arts need to regulate and purge itself

So, should we bring back death matches?

[ginosifu]

So, should we bring back death matches?

I am all for Death Matches on a Lei Tai ! My first match I will challenge Bawang.


ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

the chinese government should allow bareknuckle lei tai. then kung fu will regulate itself.

One year the Kung Fu tournament in Taiwan didnot allow head shot, people criticized the tournament didnot look real. Next year the head shot was allowed (bareknuckle - no gloves), more than 10 guys were sent to hospital. The most funny thing in that tournament was when there were a tie between 3rd and 4th place, both fighters gave up because they both thought the 3rd place would not be worthwhile to take the risk to be sent to hospital. That was some good old days.

[GeneChing]

Would a Proposed Virginia Law Outlaw Martial Arts and Firearms Training? (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/virginia-martial-arts-firearms-law/)
An amendment to a law that was already on the books makes no mention of key points raised on junk-news sites.
BETHANIA PALMA
PUBLISHED 29 NOVEMBER 2019

https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/2019/11/GettyImages-1023895578-e1575068979782.jpg?resize=865,452&quality=65
Image via Getty Images/Stock photo

Claim
A proposed Virginia law would outlaw martial arts and firearms instruction.

https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/2018/03/rating-false.png
Rating
False

Origin
In late November 2019, the Alex Jones conspiracy trolling site Infowars posted an article originally published by junk news site Natural News that falsely reported the state of Virginia will consider legislation outlawing martial arts and firearms instruction.

Under the headline, “PROPOSED VIRGINIA LAW WOULD OUTLAW KRAV MAGA, BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU, KICKBOXING, TAI CHI, FIREARMS INSTRUCTION AND SELF-DEFENSE TRAINING,” the story reads:


The law would instantly transform all martial arts instructors into criminal felons. This includes instructors who teach kickboxing, BJJ, Krav Maga, boxing and even Capoeira.

It would also criminalize all firearms training classes, including concealed carry classes.

It would even criminalize a father teaching his own son how to use a hunting rifle.

None of this is true, and oddly enough, the story in question includes not only a link to the bill but copy-and-pasted bill language, so readers can see for themselves that the proposed legislation does not say what Natural News claimed it said.

Virginia, like nearly all other U.S. states, already had a law on the books restricting unlawful private military-type activity. The current Virginia law renders it a felony if a person:


1. Teaches or demonstrates to any other person the use, application, or making of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that such training will be employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder; or

2. Assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, intending to employ such training for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder.

Senate Bill 64 would amend the current law by also making it illegal to, “[Assemble] with one or more persons with the intent of intimidating any person or group of persons by drilling, parading, or marching with any firearm, any explosive or incendiary device, or any components or combination thereof.” The amendment makes no mention of martial arts or firearms classes.

As the Georgetown Law Institute for Constitutional Law and Protection noted, Charlottesville, Virginia, in 2017 was the site of deadly violence resulting from a white supremacist rally at which:


Several white nationalist groups arrived outfitted in helmets and matching uniforms and deployed shields, batons, clubs, and flagpoles as weapons in skirmishes with counter-protestors that the instigating groups coordinated under centralized command structures. Meanwhile, private militia groups—many dressed in camouflage fatigues, tactical vests, helmets, and combat boots, and most bearing assault rifles—stood guard as self-designated protectors of the protestors and counter protestors. The heavily armed presence and coordinated paramilitary activities of all of these groups not only increased the prevalence of violence at the rally, but also made it more dangerous for state and local law enforcement to maintain public safety. Moreover, the attire and behavior of some of the self professed militia led to confusion as to who was authorized to lawfully keep the peace.

Although Natural News chalked this amendment up to the fact that voters in November 2019 handed Virginia’s state government over to a Democratic majority for the first time in a generation, that characterization is misleading.

The bill’s sponsor, Louise Lucas, is a Democrat, but Lucas is not part of the new Democratic legislative majority; she assumed her Virginia Senate seat in 1992. Furthermore, as we earlier noted, almost all states in the U.S., with both Democratic and Republican leadership, have some type of law outlawing certain paramilitary activities or at least restricting unauthorized private militias. Virginia’s law predates its new Democratic state majority.

Finally, the laws don’t make it illegal for martial arts or shooting-range instructors to teach students disciplines like “krav maga, Brazilian jiu jitsu, kickboxing, tai chi” or “firearms instruction.” The laws restrict people from various military-like activities that result in violence and civil disorder. The amendment to the Virginia law, specifically, prohibits marching with weapons or explosives for the purpose of intimidation. We therefore rate this claim “False.”

For once, I saw the snopes refutation before the fake news. :)

[SteveLau]

Iron_Eagle_76,

Good idea.

The advantages are better training provided, better image of school, less searching cost for school to train.
The disadvantages are difficult registration process, having support of the system.

If things do not go well (which it will likely be), then there will be less number of schools in the city that the government carries out such regulation.




Peace

KC
Hong Kong