Stupid Canadian Politics... [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Syn7

03-05-2011, 12:51 AM

The Canadians here will be interested in this story. For you Americans, you can get a lil bit of insight into some frivolous and retarded Canadian politics. It's only fair, since I've been posting all this crap about retarded American politics. :D

Tories re brand 'Harper Government' in place of government of Canada

..OTTAWA - It's official: Stephen Harper rules.

And lest anyone forgets, a directive went out to public servants late last year that "Government of Canada" in federal communications should be replaced by the words "Harper Government."

Public servants from four different line departments told The Canadian Press the instruction came from "the Centre" — meaning the Prime Minister's Office and the Privy Council Office that serves the prime minister.

None would speak on the record for fear of retribution. It's a well-grounded concern given the treatment of a senior government scientist who was fired in 2006 after rebelling against a directive to use "Canada's New Government" in government communications.

Andrew Okulitch was subsequently reinstated after his story went public, and the Conservatives finally retired the "Canada's New Government" handle after 21 months in office.

The "Harper Government" moniker rose to prominence in 2009, when its use was noted in light of a controversy over Conservative MPs posing with giant, mock government cheques bearing the party logo and MPs' signatures. The mock cheques were consigned to the dust bin, and the "Harper Government" handle went into partial hibernation.

Since December, the "Harper Government" has returned with a vengeance, sprouting like mushrooms across departmental communications.

Dimitri Soudas, Harper's spokesman, said in an email that the style is "a long-standing practice that accurately reflects the government's leadership, regardless of who was the prime minister."

Soudas pointed to a number of previous government releases, such as "Budget 2004, announced today by the Paul Martin government," and one heralding economic progress "during the Chretien government's time in office."

Scores of recent news releases — from the Canada Revenue Agency to Fisheries and Oceans, Finance, International Trade, Health Canada and Industry Canada — are all headlined by "Harper Government" actions.

Even the Treasury Board Secretariat is using the term.

Treasury Board is the federal department charged with policing government communications policy, including the Federal Identity Program — which to a layman's eyes appears to forbid such off-handed personalization in government titles.

Among other things, the policy states that "the criteria for creating an applied title include that it must: incorporate the word Canada or appear with the words Government of Canada...."

Treasury Board spokesman Robert Bousquet said by email "the use of the expression 'Harper Government' is not prohibited by either the Treasury Board’s Federal Identity Program Policy nor the Communications Policy of the Government of Canada."

Added Bousquet in a brief phone interview: "In fact it's factual, in that it is the government of the day."

Indeed, journalists routinely use the "Harper government" to describe Conservative government actions. But the moniker's employment by the government itself is raising hackles among more than just some straight-laced civil servants.

"It is one thing for journalists or even the public to use the more partisan 'Harper government,' but it is another thing for the state to equate the Government of Canada with the leader of the governing party," said Jonathon Rose, a specialist in political communications at Queen's University.

He notes such language is expressly forbidden under an Ontario law that prohibits partisanship in government messaging.

"The effect of this subtle framing just before an election is to equate government with Harper," said Rose. "It creates a perception of a natural affinity between one party's leader and the act of governing."

The Harper-centric messaging prompted Rose to recall French King Louis XIV and his 17th century divine right of kings: "L'Etat, c'est moi," quipped the political scientist. "The state is me."

But Mel Cappe, a former clerk of the Privy Council, finds nothing amusing in the development.

"It is not the Harper Government," Cappe said in an interview, tersely enunciating each word. "It is the Government of Canada.

"It's my government and it's your government."

Cappe said the usage brings to mind Harper's own quip of last summer on the Arctic tundra: "I make the rules," Harper told journalists after he disembarked from an all-terrain vehicle.

"What this shows is the hubris of this government's approach," said Cappe, president of the Institute for Research in Public Policy in Montreal.

"We are governed by laws. Not by men. This is trying to change that."

Peter Aucoin, an expert in public administration at Dalhousie University, also said the "Harper Government" branding exercise should be belled for public consideration.

"It's the executive abusing the powers of government for purely partisan reasons. Period," said Aucoin.

Leslie Seidle, another former Privy Council official who now works with Cappe's IRPP, had a far more sanguine view, calling the moniker "simply a creative use of language."

"I can understand that some people might find it unusual, but quite honestly I don't think there's a lot of 'there' there," said Seidle.

Cappe agrees with Seidle that the issue is "totally inside baseball."

"It matters to maybe 600 people in Canada," said Cappe, before exhorting The Canadian Press to take the issue public.

"But my sense is it's this subtle erosion of our understanding of the institutions of government that leads to a lack of credibility and respect on the part of the public.

"And that's why it is important. That's why it counts."
...

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/tories-rebrand-govt-canada-harper-govt-expert-says-20110303-125237-072.html

Typical arrogance from the Harper Government. This @sshole is notorious for canning anyone who vocalizes any sort of opposition to Tory policy. Man, I can't wait for this guy to go. Blue would love him though. ;) :o

It's going to take like 15 years to reverse all the damage this cat is doing to Canada. The worst part is that he is a lapdog to the Globalists. He's all about the North American Union. Unfortunately he's a VERY smart man. I wish I could say he's stupid like G.W. Bush is. Unfortunately for Canada, he's a member of Mensa and apparently has a VERY high I.Q.. Actually the VERY worst part of all this is the other choices for PM. Like who? Jack Layton or that poseur Iggy? Or maybe we could go with a Bloc or a Green(provided they can ever hold a federal seat) PM, lol. :rolleyes:

Xiao3 Meng4

03-05-2011, 01:56 AM

‎"Harper government" to monitor social media/facebook groups (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IsmICH1YK0)

I wonder... if it's the 'Harper Government' does that mean it is not bound by Canadian Law?

Syn7

03-05-2011, 02:15 AM

this can be our canadian thread... lol... all in one...

i dunno bout the law part... but how much money are they gonna spend to change every sign, letterhead, etc etc....??? just so harper can ego trip and assert his dominance... he's such an autocrat, he's a sh1tty PM... he's only still in there cause he has no real opposition... we can thank all the gods that he doesnt have a majority government... thank you thank you thank you...

anyways, so once he is replaced by another tory for leadership of the party or loses an election, so what? we have to pay to put all the signage and letterhead back to the way it's supposed to be???

i'd like to see the actual numbers here....!!!

for a conservative, he isnt very fiscally responsible... he's like republicans... tax cuts for the rich and cut everything else that doesnt affect rich people in a negative way... who cares about the lowly citizen who make less than 1mill a year, they arent the ones who buy his election anyways... he needs to please his masters, his donors, not his constituents...

remember a few weeks ago when he and peter mckay went at it over the painting of the airplane he flies around in??? its a multi-purpose jet... its used to move the PM around, but its also a military jet in active service in other capacities as well... so its the same color as the rest of the military jets, dull dark grey... harper is whining that he wants it to be red and white like our colours... but then the jet wont be available for military missions and we'll have to replace it somehow... so a new paint job would cost exactly 1 other jet and whatever the cost to actually paint it is... stupid little man... it was all a play to do two things... #1 get that jet assigned to him and him only... #2 fly around in more style and make a better impression to other nation leaders... he wants to look like a canadian air force 1... and thats just not gonna happen... canadians just dont waste money like that... sh1t, we even use transport choppers to do water rescue and they dont even have floaters, lol... scary stuff... a recipe for disaster... alas, we have ordered some new rescue choppers for the near future... no more water duty for the land birds...

Hardwork108

03-05-2011, 08:33 AM

Surveillance Society. It is happening all over the place. Watch out!

It is rumored that Al Quaeda is recruiting more alcohol drinking, strip club frequenting Islamic fanatics to this time attack Canada. The Canadian government, out of the kindness of her heart, is going to keep an eye on all Canadians through the internet and in other ways.

Furthermore, official US Intelligence sources say that government agencies should specially keep an eye out for a new breed of middle class Islamic terrorists who are involved in the porno movie business, hence Islamic porno stars have been put in all national terrorist lists and are subject to questioning when going through national and international ports...........

David Jamieson

03-07-2011, 06:44 AM

This is a long standing tradition actually.

The Trudeau Government was branded as such, but Government of Canada is all you'll ever see on a tax return or federal document of import. For propaganda and blurbs and campaign junk mail, "The PM Government" has almost always been the norm.

The Martin Government, The Chretien Government, the Mulroney Government and all the rest.

there are far more important reasons to throw this guy out of power than this thing. This is a distraction and fairly meaningless.

The in/out scandal is pretty big right now. the Torie are being completely absurd trying to turn criminal charges into a "disagreement". lol.

sanjuro_ronin

03-07-2011, 06:47 AM

I don't have an issue with that, it reminds us WHO is in government, LOL !

Brule

03-07-2011, 06:55 AM

Well, i'd rather have Harper than the other options.

David Jamieson

03-07-2011, 08:38 AM

Harper is disrespectful of Canadians and of the notion of democracy.
I'd rather not have him.

I would prefer a coalition government at this point with no party having power over the others.

I would like to see all these people work together for us as a Nation...for a change instead of working for themselves as a party trying to cement power.

Harper is ridiculous on so many levels, as are the other guys. I don't think any of them deserves to have a majority or to have anything else but a coalition government.

Syn7

03-11-2011, 12:58 PM

there are far more important reasons to throw this guy out of power than this thing. This is a distraction and fairly meaningless.

hence the title of the thread... not serious canadian politics... i'd talk about the serious stuff but it would be a convo between only 3 or 4 of us...

like how harper wants to paint his plane... except its not his plane and having a bright red jet doing military missions seems a bit, uuuummmmm, STUPID...:)

Lucas

03-11-2011, 01:21 PM

this is all i know about canada, so i think canada is freaking awesome!

http://www.reefersmoke.com/assets_c/2009/10/trailer-park-boys-thumb-288x216-359.jpg

Xiao3 Meng4

04-25-2011, 04:04 PM

Type in Your Postal Code to see which candidate has a chance of defeating the local Conservative.

http://www.projectdemocracy.ca/

David Jamieson

04-26-2011, 06:52 AM

this is all i know about canada, so i think canada is freaking awesome!

http://www.reefersmoke.com/assets_c/2009/10/trailer-park-boys-thumb-288x216-359.jpg

That's just Halifax dude.
A smallish province on our east coast.

x50 for Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver

And yes, many of us emulate those goons in TPB...
unfortunately, but funny as hell.

Syn7

05-01-2011, 07:39 PM

David Jamieson

05-02-2011, 05:12 AM

i think i'd be insulted if i was classifed along with the trailer park boys...

halifax is like a lil universe of its own... they have their own customs and language... different rules altogether...

and you thought the irish had broken english, just try to understand a dude who can trace his roots to halifax for generations... you'll be saying "what?" alot...

Haligonians are Scots By.
The Newfs are the Irish. Dubliners.
Halifax is Scots (Nove Scotia=New Scotland in Latin)
Drink more whisky and you'll better understand them fer sure eh! :)

Xiao3 Meng4

05-02-2011, 04:04 PM

Voters in ridings across Canada are being warned not to trust calls telling them to go to different polling stations, according to Elections Canada.

Elections Canada has had reports from several ridings from voters in Ontario, Manitoba and British Columbia who claim to have been given false information that directed them to the wrong place to vote.

The campaign of Frank Valeriote, the Liberal candidate in Guelph, issued a statement on Monday saying it has received calls from citizens claiming they received calls from Elections Canada or the riding's Conservative candidate saying the polling station has changed.

The campaign has complained to Elections Canada and the Guelph police.

"This is clearly illegal and has not being conducted or sanctioned by Frank Valeriote or anyone in his campaign," said the statement from the Valeriote campaign.

Ben Grossman said he voted in Guelph at 9:30 a.m. on Monday and when he arrived at his home 30 minutes later, there was a voice mail message from a blocked number telling him the polling station had moved across the city. He said he reported the call to Elections Canada.

Elections Canada is reporting that it has received more than 100 complaints from Kitchener-Waterloo and the Guelph areas. Another dozen complaints were fielded in the Ottawa area.

Kathy Mahoney received a call in the Ottawa area that claimed to be from Elections Canada.

"[The call said] due to higher than normal voter turnout, they were changing our poll station. Then it got maybe a little staticy or garbley. You couldn't hear where the polling station was. And then it left a 1-800 number to call if you had any questions," said Mahoney, who is married to Richard Mahoney, a Liberal candidate in recent elections.

Mahoney tried calling the 1-800 number but there was no response. She said her phone's caller identification feature said the number carried a 450 number, which is from suburban Montreal.

The fictitious phone calls are also plaguing voters on the West Coast.

Elections Canada has received complaints from voters in British Columbia over calls offering false information.

Susan Friend, an Elections Canada official, said the agency never calls voters directly to warn them that polling stations have moved.

"Elections Canada would like to warn voters to disregard any phone calls you have where you are being told to go to a different polling station," Friend said.

he Canada Elections Act says it is prohibited to "wilfully prevent or endeavour to prevent an elector from voting at an election." If a person is guilty of contravening the act, they could face a fine or jail time.

Names cross off voting lists
A different type of voting problem was experienced by several Montreal voters.

When Robin Warren showed up to vote on Monday, she said her name had been crossed off the voter list.

She had to sign an affidavit swearing she had not voted already.

While Warren was at the polling station, she said another woman who lives in the same apartment complex had an identical problem.

"On my way back home after we dealt with all this I ran into another group of ladies outside and all their names were crossed off the list, and they had to go through the same thing of signing affidavits. There's something not right here. There's too many people in one building," Warren said.

Warren said she called Elections Canada to complain but she said the elections agency called the situation an irregularity.

Earlier concerns over prank calls
A spokesman for Liberal Anita Neville, who's running for re-election in Winnipeg-South Centre, said they started getting calls from voters on Saturday asking whether their polling stations had changed.

Some reports have said voters are getting phone calls telling them their polling station has changed, but Francine Bastien, an Elections Canada official, wouldn't say precisely how people are getting the false information.

"We just want to make sure that both the media and the voters know that there have not been any changes in the voting [locations] ... and that the documents they receive from Elections Canada [and] the Elections Canada website is the accurate information they should trust in order to vote tomorrow," Bastien said.

"I don't know the details exactly but I understand they were getting information to the effect that they should vote in different locations, sometimes being referred to locations that were an hour away from their residence."

Bastien said she can't yet address whether the election agency will investigate the false information.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadavotes2011/story/2011/05/02/cv-election-polling-pranks-411.html

They **** well better....

David Jamieson

05-02-2011, 05:31 PM

Done. My votes in! Woot and it was packed!

Xiao3 Meng4

05-02-2011, 09:21 PM

Well, at least the Bloc's been reduced and Elizabeth May's in parliament.

I hope she puts her floor time to good use.

David Jamieson

05-03-2011, 05:19 AM

That is my attitude as well.

It is good the bloc is gone. Good riddance. Completely irrelevant to the greater part of Canada and pretty much useless in a governmental way to all of us as a country. So yay!

The NDP is a better opposition to the PCs than the Liberals ever would be.

The Liberals got a well deserved smack for failing to gel on the leader issue. Ignatieff was unfortunately appointed and not elected. That always never sat well with me. Dion was unintelligible. I wonder about the party itself at times they do such hubristic things. So, humility may cure them of some of that.

We are simply gonna have to chomp it when it comes to L&O and Military money being spent over and above education and health care. That sucks, but that's what we voted in. So, we move forward. :)

sanjuro_ronin

05-03-2011, 05:51 AM

Brule

05-03-2011, 06:06 AM

David Jamieson

05-03-2011, 06:22 AM

The stupidity of the liberals arrogance in causing an election that no one wanted and that was destined to bite them on the ass, has caused them to get beaten like a red headed step child.
And deservingly so.
The increase in the NDP vote shows that disilusionment of the BQ and Liberal voters.
While I am not a fan of majority governments, it was inevitable under the circumstances of the opposition forcing this stupid election.
We will see what Harper does with a majority.
The sooner they get rid of Ignatiff and his ilk from the liberals, the better.
Next up" Mcguinty and his HST liberals !
Won't be too soon for me !

I'm with you on the provincial thing. Although, McGuinty did do a lot for education in the province. Full day Kindergarten for instance, increase in daycare subsidies and on the flip side, the double cohort that happened in the beginning of his term when they eliminated grade 13. However, he has been just a major d*ck on most other things and is virtually useless as a business and energy negotiator. Also, he's lax in his ability to ensure adequate delivery of health care.

But our Choices are Horvath and Houdak...both of whom are a lot less appealing than even McGuinty. Crikey!!!! Ontario is a cluster hump for sure. lol I should move back to the peg where a dollar is a dollar, a spade is a spade and a good cigar is a darn fine cigar.

Ontario is the topsy turvy world of the specialized agenda, left wing media bias and general chaos and nonsense. What a goofy province. lol

BJJ-Blue

05-03-2011, 08:39 AM

David Jamieson

05-03-2011, 09:50 AM

Yeah, I read the liberals won the fewest seats in their history and that the conservatives are now the majority Party. Looks like you guys' election was alot like our 2010 midterm elections. Things will only get better up there.

Yep, the Liberals got waxed hard and it was entirely because of arrogance and having the wrong guy at the helm twice in a row.

The Conservative retained power they had and shored it up further with a majority.

Things weren't that bad up here fyi. We had a bumpy 2009, but 2010 sees as us pretty strong. We would be better off if the US could get their economic situation in hand seeing as we are so closely linked in that respect.

All in all, the political landscape is pretty healthy. I think most Canadians with the exception of the really far left whining contingent are ok with the results of last nights election.

We might have a few reservations about Harper, but Layton will certainly speak up and show up more for work than Ignatieff ever did.

The ironic part is that Michael Ignatieff would likely be of better use to American politics where he can go back to now. lol

sanjuro_ronin

05-03-2011, 10:25 AM

I'm with you on the provincial thing. Although, McGuinty did do a lot for education in the province. Full day Kindergarten for instance, increase in daycare subsidies and on the flip side, the double cohort that happened in the beginning of his term when they eliminated grade 13. However, he has been just a major d*ck on most other things and is virtually useless as a business and energy negotiator. Also, he's lax in his ability to ensure adequate delivery of health care.

But our Choices are Horvath and Houdak...both of whom are a lot less appealing than even McGuinty. Crikey!!!! Ontario is a cluster hump for sure. lol I should move back to the peg where a dollar is a dollar, a spade is a spade and a good cigar is a darn fine cigar.

Ontario is the topsy turvy world of the specialized agenda, left wing media bias and general chaos and nonsense. What a goofy province. lol

Can't argue there.
One hopes someone semi-decent will emerge, LOL !

As for Harper, from what he has promised, so far so good...*cross fingers*..

Xiao3 Meng4

05-19-2011, 06:05 AM

David, I agree the world is getting better.... but I do not like the NDP. They are arrogant and full of themselves.

I went to see my local MP about a disadvantaged woman who was being mistreated in the healthcare system. It was an impromptu visit, so I was wearing street clothes - Jeans and a Hoodie. They seemed irritated to even have to let me in, and when I explained the problem/situation, they quickly said "ok, we'll have someone check into it. Have a nice day." Only they didn't get ANY of the contact info for either me or the woman in question. I had to beg for them to take the info down, which they did, making sure that I knew exactly how much I was bothering them.

I walked out, disgusted. It made me very sad to realize that the NDP is not all that interested in addressing some of the more immediate issues that face many Canadians, such as the lack of family physicians, the incompetence and corruption of clinics and pharmacies, and the schizophrenic ER situation - the woman in question went to the ER, was admitted by the triage nurse, and promptly verbally abused by the attending physician, who felt that her case was not emergent enough, and what the hell was she doing in the ER wasting his time.

So, I've personally seen two of the most "socially oriented" groups in Canada completely sh*t on the little guy... one by verbally abusing a person in distress, and the other by acting arrogantly and dismissively towards people that actually voted for them.

And don't get me started on red tape and bureaucracy... want a part time job slinging food? Impossible without getting your "food serving license." Want to be a janitor? You'll need WHMIS and first aid. Want to start a business? Good luck staying up to date with all the hoops you need to jump through... and yes, they're always adding more; I've yet to see hoops get removed.

Xiao3 Meng4

05-19-2011, 06:19 AM

CRA employees scare the f*ck out of me. They have access to all of our info, can modify our info, and although there are official safeguards in place to prevent the infringement of your rights, they are technically not well enforced.

Consider this scenario:

Your crazy ex girlfriend's new Fiancée dies. The fiancée's mother works at CRA. Your ex persuades the mother to look up your address and personal info so she can track you down. The mother complies without batting an eye. Suddenly, you get a call out of the blue from your ex, wanting to rekindle the relationship.

Forgetting that she's crazy, you explore your possibilities. Things go south quick and you remember that she's insane. You break off contact once again.

Over the next year, you begin to notice weird things: you're not getting your tax returns, your address is mysteriously changed, and you suddenly owe back-taxes that you did not owe before.

This scenario is, unfortunately, what happened to me.

They say that Federal corruption used to hover around 3%. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that that number has gone up in recent years, especially considering the quality of "service" I've been getting at government offices of late.

That, combined with the realization that some random person you don't even know can be persuaded to illegally access your personal info, is very disconcerting to me.

David Jamieson

05-19-2011, 06:30 AM

Xiao3 Meng4

05-19-2011, 06:35 AM

Brother, if you can prove that and have evidence to support the claim, I would trot on down to the local constabulary immediately and let em know because that is not cool by any measure at all. :eek:

Yes I've filed a complaint. If things don't move like they should, I'm going to the Ombudsman.

Also, I LOLed at the current theme of the revenge thread... my ex was a redhead too. :o

BJJ-Blue

05-19-2011, 06:55 AM

I went to see my local MP about a disadvantaged woman who was being mistreated in the healthcare system. ...when I explained the problem/situation, they quickly said "ok, we'll have someone check into it. Have a nice day." Only they didn't get ANY of the contact info for either me or the woman in question. I had to beg for them to take the info down, which they did, making sure that I knew exactly how much I was bothering them.

You're lying. We all know socialized medicine is the best healthcare system in the world. That sort of stuff only happens when greedy private insurance companies want to save money by denying claims so their CEOs can get paid millions per year.

Yes I've filed a complaint. If things don't move like they should, I'm going to the Ombudsman.

If they move as quickly as our Government run program, the Veterans Administraion (VA), good luck. My dad is still waiting on a claim he filed 7 years ago to get approved by the VA.

Xiao3 Meng4

05-19-2011, 07:17 AM

You're lying. We all know socialized medicine is the best healthcare system in the world. That sort of stuff only happens when greedy private insurance companies want to save money by denying claims so their CEOs can get paid millions per year.

Fascetiousness aside, I'm well aware that there are many problems concerning Canadian health-care... only it's not as clear-cut as "socialized/private" IMO.

I come from a Northern Ontario mining city of 250,000. It's 5 hours away from Toronto. Not that far, but a haul nonetheless.

Canada's public health care system allows doctors to choose where they would like to work. Guess what: almost NO ONE wants to work up north.

Of course, the private health care system allows this choice too, and guess what: almost NO ONE wants to work up north.

Private health-care exists in Canada in the form of dentistry, some walk-in clinics, and pharmacists. Again, not many people in these professions want to live in isolated communities.

There is so little Western Medicine in some parts of Northern Canada these days that Blue Collar workers who would usually steer clear of alternative medicine (called "Hippy Medicine" by some) are making regular appointments with naturopaths and acupuncturists.

This situation is part of what prompted me to study Chinese medicine.

This, coupled with my earlier posts, means I'm in complete agreement with anyone who says that Canada's health care system is broken; however I see the break to be less related to the public/private debate and more related to the adequate distribution of health care, no matter what financial model is being used.

If they move as quickly as our Government run program, the Veterans Administraion (VA), good luck. My dad is still waiting on a claim he filed 7 years ago to get approved by the VA.

here, we have a fast-tracking complaint system (this is Canada, after all... king of complaining) that is run by an official called the Ombudsman. The ombudsman is basically a rights advocate who investigates complaints that have been ignored/left unresolved by government offices. They're generally applied in government complaints, but a "Hybrid Ombudsman" (that's the real title) deals with complaints relating to the private sector as well - usually sectors that are somehow tied to government funding though, such as universities or private schools.

Do you guys have anything like an ombudsman?

Drake

05-19-2011, 07:31 AM

You're lying. We all know socialized medicine is the best healthcare system in the world. That sort of stuff only happens when greedy private insurance companies want to save money by denying claims so their CEOs can get paid millions per year.

If they move as quickly as our Government run program, the Veterans Administraion (VA), good luck. My dad is still waiting on a claim he filed 7 years ago to get approved by the VA.

Your dad should have taken his complaint to higher ups.... about six years ago. Never had a problem with the VA.

BJJ-Blue

05-19-2011, 08:01 AM

Your dad should have taken his complaint to higher ups.... about six years ago. Never had a problem with the VA.

He's repeatedly tried to get Lloyd Doggett's office to help out. That hasn't helped much. I told my parents to try Ron Paul's office, or either of our 2 Senators. My mom said there is a Congressman in San Anotonio who is very helpful to veterans having issues with the VA, he even helps vets in other districts. She just can't remember who he is, so she is looking into that.

When you say higher ups, to who are you referring? Also, are you a disabled vet?

Any help would be appreciated.

David Jamieson

05-19-2011, 09:05 AM

This, coupled with my earlier posts, means I'm in complete agreement with anyone who says that Canada's health care system is broken; however I see the break to be less related to the public/private debate and more related to the adequate distribution of health care, no matter what financial model is being used.

^This is very true.

It has SFA to do with socialized system and everything to do with people don't want to face hardship, especially not doctors, lawyers etc.

Any professional is hard to get into isolated communities. It's not difficult to get hard workers and everyone else, just the over educated types with degrees tend to shun a little physical hardship.

then, there are those who shoulder it well, but in short, it is about distribution of the resources more so than anything else. the money ain't really an issue, we pay plenty for our system in taxes and for the most part, it's pretty good and probably a lot better than what you lot down south are stuck with.

People got to sell their houses to get their kids treatment and then they spend the rest of their life struggling to rise out of poverty after they finished paying ridiculously high medical bills. yeah, no thanks, you can keep your suck ass healthcare system America and you're welcome for all the highly educated Canadian doctors that work in it. :mad:

In short, many doctors are demonstratively jerks and are in it for the money. :p

Xiao3 Meng4

05-22-2011, 12:03 PM

Canada on the Brink of Mass Social Struggles (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/may2011/pers-m05.shtml)

By propelling Stephen Harper and his Conservative Party to a majority government in the May 2nd elections, the Canadian ruling elite has revealed that its aim is to force workers back to conditions of class oppression not seen throughout most of the twentieth century.

Canada, like the United States and other major industrialized countries, stands on the brink of explosive class struggles. As the elections’ results show, the bourgeoisie’s program of social reaction is opposed by the majority of the electorate. While the Conservatives now hold 54 percent of the seats in the Canada House of Commons, they in fact won the support of less than a quarter of the electorate.

The votes Harper did win were based on a political fraud—claims that the Conservative Party, the result of the merger of the remnants of the Progressive Conservatives and the hard right Reform/Canadian Alliance, are moderates. Warnings about the character of Harper’s policies were dismissed as conspiracy theories about a “hidden agenda.”

The Canadian ruling class is not hiding Harper’s reactionary agenda, however, but shamelessly flaunting it.

Canadian big business is clamoring for the dismantling of Canada’s purportedly “unsustainable” universal public health insurance plan, Medicare. According to a recently released report co-authored by a former Bank of Canada governor and quickly endorsed by the corporate media, Medicare is “suffering from chronic spending disease.” Through a combination of sharply reduced coverage and privatization, responsibility for providing health care is to be shifted from the state to individuals and their families.

The scale of the attacks that are being prepared is revealed not only by the Canadian bourgeoisie’s plans, but also by similar cuts being announced internationally. In all the old industrialized powers, the bourgeoisie has responded to the 2008 crash and the global slump by trying to destroy what remains of the social benefits that workers wrenched from big business through colossal social struggles in the last century.

In Europe, there is rising discussion of the collapse of the euro, as bank bailouts paid for by public funds are cited as pretexts for imposing bitter social cuts on the workers—with workers in Greece reportedly losing 30 percent of their income as a result of these cuts.

In the United States, after trillions of dollars were handed over with no questions asked to Wall Street criminals, both big-business parties are preparing unprecedented cuts to Medicare and the Social Security pension program.

Canadian capitalism has the same agenda and, from its standpoint, cannot do otherwise if it is to stay ahead in the global competition for profits, markets, and strategic influence. This means, however, the end of the period in which Canadian capital could posture as a kinder, more civilized relative of its unrestrained American cousin to the south.

Tectonic shifts in the world capitalist system are propelling the Canadian ruling class towards social reaction and war, to increase its profits and maintain the strategic advantages that flow to it from close ties with US imperialism.

Canadian imperialism has responded to the erosion of US global hegemony by expanding and rearming the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF). The CAF is currently playing a leading role in wars against Afghanistan and Libya. At the behest of the most powerful sections of Canadian capital, Harper has made negotiating a still closer partnership with Washington in the form of a Continental Security Perimeter a top priority.

The ruling elite are well aware that their agenda will be opposed. Canada’s newspapers, for example, are full of commentary complaining about the popular support for Medicare. In response, the Globe and Mail, Canada’s newspaper of record, lauded Harper for his “bullheadedness”—that is his readiness to defy public opinion and run roughshod over democratic rights.

The most important example of Harper’s bullheadedness was his use of the arbitrary powers of the unelected governor-general in December 2008 to avert defeat in a non-confidence vote and avoid being replaced by a Liberal-led coalition. The Globe—owned by David Thomson, reputedly the seventeenth wealthiest person in the world—and all the most powerful sections of Canadian capital supported this constitutional coup, so as to prevent the coming to power of a government they deemed unsuitable.

This agenda places the ruling class on a collision course with the working class, and places revolutionary struggles on the political agenda.

In this regard, the state provocation the Harper government staged last June during the G20 summit in Toronto, where police arrested hundreds without cause and peaceful protesters were violently attacked, takes on new meaning. Harper’s ally, Toronto Mayor Rob Ford, is preparing to use strikebreakers to ram through his privatization plans. On the pages of Toronto dailies, there is discussion of preparing for “French-style” mass protests.

The central political problem facing the working class is the vacuum of political leadership. In the current election, popular hostility to Harper’s platform took the form of a sizeable protest vote for the social-democratic NDP. It was catapulted from fourth place into the Official Opposition, winning 64 additional seats, including 57 in Quebec, where it hitherto had a lone MP.

The NDP is, however, a wholly undeserving beneficiary of the rising political discontent from the working class. The party of the trade union bureaucracy, the NDP is an instrument for politically suppressing the working class.

Like social-democratic parties the world over, the NDP long ago repudiated even its reformist program. Little more than two years ago, it was ready to serve as junior partners in a Liberal-led coalition committed to waging war in Afghanistan and implementing Harper’s corporate tax cuts, with “fiscal responsibility” as it first principle.

In its platform for the just-completed election, it promised to balance the budget in the same time frame as the Conservatives, proposed no tax increases on the rich and proposed to maintain the current levels of military spending—the highest in real terms since World War II.

The working class in Canada as around the world is being thrust into struggle and will fight courageously and tenaciously. But if it is to prevail, and to escape defeats of even greater consequence than the reversals of the past three decades, it must make a new perspective based on a rejection of the capitalist profit system and the common interests of workers all over the world the basis of its struggle.

The Socialist Equality Party of Canada sets as its fundamental task the fight for this perspective in the working class. The many struggles of the working class against plant closures and social cuts must be fused into an independent political movement aimed at bringing to power workers’ governments, in Canada and internationally, that will base economic life on social need, not profit.

Keith Jones

Xiao3 Meng4

05-22-2011, 12:43 PM

Clement won't rule out program cuts (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2011/05/20/ottawa-clement-program-cuts.html)

Treasury Board head Tony Clement said he would consider shutting entire programs and shrinking the public service to help produce a balanced budget by 2014-2015, according to reports.

Clement was named Treasury Board president on Wednesday, taking over from Stockwell Day, and is tasked with finding savings in other government departments to reduce the deficit, which is projected this year to be $29.6 billion.

On Wednesday, Clement acknowledged that a preferred option for saving money would be through attrition, or cutting public service jobs when people leave or retire.

But on Thursday, he elaborated, telling the Globe and Mail and Ottawa Citizen newspapers that cuts could mean entire programs are shuttered. Programs that might have been important 30 years ago may no longer be the best way to spend public money today, he said.

Patty Ducharme, the national executive vice-president for the Public Sector Alliance of Canada, the largest public sector union, said she was not surprised by the news. Ever since the government first talked about reducing staff through attrition, public service unions have said such a plan was not possible or practical.

"I'm dismayed though, given the fact that what this government has been saying leading up to the election was that there would be job reductions, but those reductions would come through attrition and nothing more than attrition," Ducharme said.

"One day into the job and now he's telling the truth. Thanks Tony."

Ducharme said she was at a loss as to which government programs might be targeted.

"All of these people play a critical role in the Canadian government and for people who work and live in Canada," she said.

Ducharme said PSAC president John Gordon has asked to meet with Clement since his appointment, but a meeting has yet to be confirmed.

Clement said he was still being briefed on his new portfolio. He said a strategic and operational review of all government services, to be completed in the next year, would help steer the government toward a balanced budget.

Public servants weighed in on Friday, expressing some trepidation about potential cuts.

"General concerns are if it will be affecting myself and people I know, and programs I work for," said Cecil Goyette.

Another public servant, Sergey Vershinin, felt the possible program cuts were in line with a Conservative agenda.

"Well they didn't have a majority and now they do, so it's not surprising, and I think in line with what was expected," he said.

Hmmm, programs that are ~30 years old...

In 1984, the Canada Health Act was passed, which prohibited user fees and extra billing by doctors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada#The_beginning_of_coverage

BJJ-Blue

05-23-2011, 07:03 AM

Tha Keith Jones is an idiot, and/or a rabid socialist. I couldn't even finish that diatribe.

Why would Big Business want the Gov't heathcare system ended? If it is, THEY are now on the hook for employees plans. It's obviously the people who are tired of it, they have to wait in lines while the 'Big business' guys simply go south and go to American doctors and hospitals to avoid the waits.

And what in the world does he propose to do instead of cutting Gov't jobs and waste? Borrow it from China forever? In his world, Big Business is bad, but yet they have to live within their means. Maybe Gov't should try that. And Big Business has to pay their workers out of their own pockets, Gov't just has the taxpayers pay for it's employees.

There is a reson this country is the world's richest nation, the free market. And now there is a reason China's economy is growing at such a fast pace that they will pass us by in the not-so-distant future: While we are now embracing more socialist economic policies and restricting the free market, we are falling back, yet China is embracing the free market and getting rid of certain socialist economic policies and their economy is going through the roof. But these foolish Western egghead socialists cant see the forest through the trees.

Syn7

05-23-2011, 11:43 AM

the health care issue has nothing to do with the fact that its a public system and everything to do with the fact that we treat our bodies like sh1t and expect others to make us better with drugs... huge mistake, we are a society of pharma-junkies and its just getting worse... i wont even take an aspirin unless its really bad... i know people who eat like 10 advils a day as a part of their routine... disgusting... and thats nowhere near as bad as somebody on any of the more potent and less tried and tested meds...

about the election
im glad to see the bloc fail so bad. the libs got what they deserved, the ndp filled the void, and a green is actually going to parliament... im ok with all of that... my only real problem is that harper won and got a majority... i dont like that party at all... they do not stand for me and mine and actually harm me and mine in the longterm... if i could snuff him out i would...

BJJ-Blue

05-23-2011, 12:13 PM

the health care issue has nothing to do with the fact that its a public system and everything to do with the fact that we treat our bodies like sh1t and expect others to make us better with drugs...

Socialized medicine systems are failing all over the world, not just in Canada.

And of course people overuse meds up there, the drugs are 'free'. That's another huge problem socialized medicine brings, demand skyrockets. Why not go to the doctor if you are sneezing? If your stomach feels heavy, just go to the hospital. It's 'free' after all. That's why EVERY time it's tried the beaurocrats who set the costs are ALWAYS underestimating the demand which invariably results in lines, waits to see specialists, and death panels.

if i could snuff him out i would...

So you advocate murdering leaders who you do not agree with when you cant get them out of office using the democratic process?

mooyingmantis

05-23-2011, 12:49 PM

In short..... and are in it for the money. :p

Why shouldn't they be???? :confused:

Why do you work David?

I know I do my job for the money. It certainly isn't for fun and prestige.

Do you expect someone who pays over $100,000 in education for their career to not expect a good return on their investment? Or is every Canadian doctor suppose to be an altruistic fool?

David Jamieson

05-24-2011, 04:41 AM

Why shouldn't they be???? :confused:

Why do you work David?

I know I do my job for the money. It certainly isn't for fun and prestige.

Do you expect someone who pays over $100,000 in education for their career to not expect a good return on their investment? Or is every Canadian doctor suppose to be an altruistic fool?

That's the rub and it's not about altruism, it's about the oath they take and the service of it. Which it would take mere moments to find numerous examples of all too many who disregard it.

The universal professional arts are regulated, certified and protected by other bodies.
Architecture, Medicine, Engineering and Law. these are the big 4 establishments and institutions which may not be practiced in any way shape or form in public service without a ticket so to speak.

Anyway, with Doctors, when money comes first, you can have that Doctor, I'll take the one who approaches it as a passion and a duty as is constantly inculcated into the practitioners as they go through their journey of becoming that.

I don't begrudge a good pay scale for them, but I do feel that in that type of service that you shouldn't be allowed to self govern anymore than police, military or other necessary services. It is the self governance aspect that causes many of the problems, shortages, and brain drain.

BJJ-Blue

05-24-2011, 07:00 AM

It is the self governance aspect that causes many of the problems, shortages, and brain drain.

You have it backwards. If a doctor decides to give free or reduced price care to patients, the line at his office will be longer than the doctor who charges the market value for his services.

Why certain people feel they can just eliminate the Law of Supply and Demand in order to solve economic problems is beyond me.

MasterKiller

05-24-2011, 07:07 AM

You have it backwards. If a doctor decides to give free or reduced price care to patients, the line at his office will be longer than the doctor who charges the market value for his services.

Why certain people feel they can just eliminate the Law of Supply and Demand in order to solve economic problems is beyond me.

Correct. My father-in-law is a general practicioner. He only charges $35 for an office visit, and as a result he has a very, very large practice. He also has about $2 million in his retirement account.

You can be successful AND be affordable. Most just know they don't have to reasonable because the demand is so high that people will pay more just to be seen quickly. And it's not just welfare cases that crowd the offices...you'd be surprised at how few physicians actually accept medicaid-type patients.

David Jamieson

05-24-2011, 07:16 AM

You have it backwards. If a doctor decides to give free or reduced price care to patients, the line at his office will be longer than the doctor who charges the market value for his services.

Why certain people feel they can just eliminate the Law of Supply and Demand in order to solve economic problems is beyond me.

You're like a sith, always dealing in your absolutes. lol

WTF has it got to do with capitalism?
The fact that you can't get past that mere aspect of the medical process is stunning!

Medical care isn't about and really shouldn't be focused so much on money. I think that is a mistake that causes fatalities.

BJJ-Blue

05-24-2011, 09:22 AM

You're like a sith, always dealing in your absolutes. lol

Because its true. It is what it is. You may not like, or agree with, the Law of Supply and Demand, but it's still a huge factor in economics you cannot just legislate away.

WTF has it got to do with capitalism?

If you can't see how the Law of Supply and Demand relates to capitalism, you are more ignorant about free market/economic principles than I thought.

BJJ-Blue

05-24-2011, 09:25 AM

MasterKiller

05-24-2011, 09:55 AM

Ask him what his biggest expense is. If he doesn't say malpractice insurance, I'll be stunned. Something like $150,000/year in insurance fees. He always fights malpractice lawsuits, though, out of principle, even though it's cheaper to settle in most cases. He's beaten two or three since I've known him.

David Jamieson

05-24-2011, 10:42 AM

Because its true. It is what it is. You may not like, or agree with, the Law of Supply and Demand, but it's still a huge factor in economics you cannot just legislate away.

If you can't see how the Law of Supply and Demand relates to capitalism, you are more ignorant about free market/economic principles than I thought.

If you can't see what it is we are talking about here, and how it is not about how a capitalist market works, then I leave you to your ignorance in which you may delight whilst you wallow in it.

We are talking about professional medical practice. Not what it will cost to remove a tumor.

Can you break from your constant diatribes about the value of a dollar please? BTW, mine is worth more than yours. Does that make me superior to you now that you have some weakass useless dollar that lacks the buying power of my lowly canadian buck?

see how irrelevant that is to the conversation?

BJJ-Blue

05-24-2011, 11:41 AM

Something like $150,000/year in insurance fees. He always fights malpractice lawsuits, though, out of principle, even though it's cheaper to settle in most cases. He's beaten two or three since I've known him.

Were the ones he beat frivolous lawsuits?

BJJ-Blue

05-24-2011, 11:48 AM

MasterKiller

05-24-2011, 12:20 PM

Were the ones he beat frivolous lawsuits?

I don't know the details, only that he thought he did nothing wrong, and apparently the courts decided in his favor.

David Jamieson

05-24-2011, 01:26 PM

Of course free market principles and economics are relevant. We are discussing costs, so they are huge factors here. Let's try it this way, how do YOU think prices should be determined?

And I didn't say anything about the value of a dollar in this conversation. Where you got that from is beyond me.

lemme put it this way.

1. demand is HIGH!

2. Supply is available, but not met, because doctors don't want to live in isolated areas where their services are in Demand.

so, there's your huge factors as already stated once if not a couple of times here.

We are also talking about Canada, so the whole Doctoring scenario is quite different here.

Also, I think it is important for Canadian educated doctors to stay in Canada for a given period of time before they take their GP and migrate on down to hollywood to botch up some skin jobs on the overly vain.

It ticks me off when someone immigrates here to Canada for an education, gets it and gets it subsidized and then moves to the states to make money instead of staying and helping or even moving back to his/her country from which he/she immigrated to help them with his/her newly minted medical education.

anyway, again, up north demand is high and there are not enough doctors supplying and it's not because they aren't available, it's because they don't want to go help there.

so, yeah, there is a problem with that.

BJJ-Blue

05-24-2011, 02:02 PM

Supply is available, but not met, because doctors don't want to live in isolated areas where their services are in Demand.

Are there some sort of price controls up there? Like limits as to what doctor's can charge for certain procedures, that sort of thing?

We are also talking about Canada, so the whole Doctoring scenario is quite different here.

Agreed. And one of the big differences is when our rich people get sick they stay in the US for treatment, while when your rich people get sick they often come to the US for treatment.

Also, I think it is important for Canadian educated doctors to stay in Canada for a given period of time before they take their GP and migrate on down to hollywood to botch up some skin jobs on the overly vain.

It ticks me off when someone immigrates here to Canada for an education, gets it and gets it subsidized and then moves to the states to make money instead of staying and helping or even moving back to his/her country from which he/she immigrated to help them with his/her newly minted medical education.

Well the easy solution would be to stop subsidizing people's education with taxpayers money. But since you're Canadian I bet you think that's a horrible idea. Make them pay for it themselves or get student loans they must repay in order to fund their education.

Or you can make it more profitable to practice medicine up there and the best and brightest doctors wouldn't leave Canada to come here. They leave Canada for a reason.

Although I must admit, you are on to something here. You are noticing that just because a Government gives people money for nothing, it doesn't mean that those people are grateful enough to do the 'right' thing in return. They just take, take, take and when it's time to give back, they find a way to get out of that part. It's one of the reasons socialism always fails.

anyway, again, up north demand is high and there are not enough doctors supplying and it's not because they aren't available, it's because they don't want to go help there.

so, yeah, there is a problem with that.

If you pay them enough, they will work up there. Mooyingmantis also tried explaining that to you.

BJJ-Blue

05-24-2011, 02:08 PM

I don't know the details, only that he thought he did nothing wrong, and apparently the courts decided in his favor.

Texas has a bill in the Legislature that's basically a 'loser pays' bill. The trial lawyers are fighting it tooth and nail. I believe these types of laws are necessary to keep costs down in MANY industries, but sadly they can be abused. Of course if the trial lawyers wouldn't file frivolous lawsuits in the first place they wouldn't be having to fight bills that are written to stop frivolous lawsuits. If you refuse to clean up your own messes, don't complain about how somebody else cleans them up.

I'd bet my bottom dollar if bills like this pass in his State, his malpractice insurance premiums will come down. And once his operating costs come down, he can pass those savings down to his patients.

David Jamieson

05-24-2011, 03:23 PM

If you pay them enough, they will work up there. Mooyingmantis also tried explaining that to you.

No, no they won't. In fact, they can get paid MORE!
They won't go. Our northern regions are under served by medical professional.

I don't think I need to remind you medicine is mostly socialized in Canada. Pay scales for Doctors are pretty high.

A GP can make a million a year if he works for it here too.
If a doctor is good and provides good service, he will get a high caseload and that is where the money is.

Pharmaceuticals are not free, dentistry is not free in any form, holistic services and preventative medicine is not free, artificial limbs are not free but can be subsidized by charities and often are. Ambulance rides are not free.

What is paid for by your taxes?

Base salaries, all non-elective surgery, extended hospital care, all treatment within a hospital and in some cases, long term drug therapies that meet a criteria.

So, you can't really think of it in terms of pay scale being the issue. It's an ethical issue here. And for what it's worth, only stupid rich people that want elective surgery go to the states for it. they do it because elective surgery you have to wait for. So some millionaire goes and get's his face lifted? Fine, I don't care, you're wasting good doctor time for others. Go pay moron. lol

It's a completely different paradigm and even thinking that it's a mere paradigm shift to behave like you is wrong. Not to mention, your system sucks! I can guarantee you that no one wants an american style system up here.

No one wants to sell their house because their child faces misfortune that will put the whole family in the poorhouse and that happens with regularity int eh american model...so no thanks, you go ahead and keep that piece of crap medical system of yours.

When it's only for the rich, it's useless for the other 99% of the country/world.
Good for you for being rich, but that doesn't make you better or more deserving.

BJJ-Blue

05-25-2011, 07:05 AM

No, no they won't. In fact, they can get paid MORE!
They won't go. Our northern regions are under served by medical professional.

If a job pays enough, someone will fill it. It's that simple. You couldn't pay me enough to fish crab in the Bering Sea, but it obviously pays some people enough to do it because the job is getting done.

And for what it's worth, only stupid rich people that want elective surgery go to the states for it. they do it because elective surgery you have to wait for. So some millionaire goes and get's his face lifted? Fine, I don't care, you're wasting good doctor time for others. Go pay moron. lol

"Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams is set to undergo heart surgery this week in the United States.

CBC News confirmed Monday that Williams, 60, left the province earlier in the day and will have surgery later in the week.

The premier's office provided few details, beyond confirming that he would have heart surgery and saying that it was not necessarily a routine procedure."

Last I checked, heart surgery wasn't elective surgery. And why did he come here? It's either one of two things; either he thinks American doctors are better, OR the wait in Canada is too long. Which one was it in Mr Williams case?

Source: (complete article)
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2010/02/01/nl-williams-heart-201.html

David Jamieson

05-25-2011, 07:22 AM

If a job pays enough, someone will fill it. It's that simple. You couldn't pay me enough to fish crab in the Bering Sea, but it obviously pays some people enough to do it because the job is getting done. YOu are wrong. But it's because of your closed minded way of thinking. I don't care if you offer me a million dollars, I won't take the job if it is not what I want to do. Seriously.

"Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams is set to undergo heart surgery this week in the United States.

CBC News confirmed Monday that Williams, 60, left the province earlier in the day and will have surgery later in the week.

The premier's office provided few details, beyond confirming that he would have heart surgery and saying that it was not necessarily a routine procedure."

Last I checked, heart surgery wasn't elective surgery. And why did he come here? It's either one of two things; either he thinks American doctors are better, OR the wait in Canada is too long. Which one was it in Mr Williams case?

Source: (complete article)
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2010/02/01/nl-williams-heart-201.html

Crikey? :rolleyes: This is your choice of all the rich canadians flocking down to teh states for medical treatment?

Dude... Williams didn't need to go to the states. He knows it and has admitted as much. He never stated why he went and he is a grandstander and a shoe waver.

So F*ck Danny Williams for being a showboat idiot newf who does stuff like this for unknown reasons. I can tell you straight, he didn't have to go there, didn't need to go there and would have received the same quality of care and surgery here in Canada.

But it's showboat McGee, so screw him, he is welcome to waste his money and time chasing rainbows all he likes.

I think we're all in agreement that you just can't legislate against stupidity. Danny is another example.

So, who else ya got? This was super high profile because he was a premier at the time and by the way, he has a huge beef with federal government and likely did this as a "just because" so that people like you can post that link. LOL :p

BJJ-Blue

05-25-2011, 10:09 AM

YOu are wrong. But it's because of your closed minded way of thinking. I don't care if you offer me a million dollars, I won't take the job if it is not what I want to do. Seriously.

I'm not closed minded at all, I just know this makes no sense. You have a job that needs to be done, and it supposedly pays well. So why isn't it being done?

Crikey? :rolleyes: This is your choice of all the rich canadians flocking down to teh states for medical treatment?

No, I never said he was the "choice of all" of anything. You said "only stupid rich people that want elective surgery go to the states for it" and I refuted it by giving one example. So you were wrong, but I know you'll never admit it.

Dude... Williams didn't need to go to the states. He knows it and has admitted as much. He never stated why he went and he is a grandstander and a shoe waver.

I can tell you straight, he didn't have to go there, didn't need to go there and would have received the same quality of care and surgery here in Canada.

This was super high profile because he was a premier at the time and by the way, he has a huge beef with federal government and likely did this as a "just because" so that people like you can post that link. LOL :p

So the guy went to have VERY expensive surgery done here that he could have had done free in Canada just to prove a point and give me ammo in an Internet debate???

Man, Casey Anthony's defense team is better at making excuses than you are.

One more thing, can you source your allegations that Mr Williams admitted he didn't need to come here for surgery? ;)

David Jamieson

05-25-2011, 10:22 AM

I'm not closed minded at all, I just know this makes no sense. You have a job that needs to be done, and it supposedly pays well. So why isn't it being done? YOu are not self aware apparently. hmmmmn.

No, I never said he was the "choice of all" of anything. You said "only stupid rich people that want elective surgery go to the states for it" and I refuted it by giving one example. So you were wrong, but I know you'll never admit it. YOu deciding about it means exactly nothing. You gave one publicized example and it's not even a good one as I explained. But you would never in a million years admit it because you...well, you're basically a troll here. Still waiting for ONE relevant kungfu thread form you. :p

So the guy went to have VERY expensive surgery done here that he could have had done free in Canada just to prove a point and give me ammo in an Internet debate??? He's a showboating idiot, yes and I'll say it to his face and have written same to him personally whilst he was Premier. the guy is a goof. Period.

Man, Casey Anthony's defense team is better at making excuses than you are.

One more thing, can you source your allegations that Mr Williams admitted he didn't need to come here for surgery? ;) Go to the same place that you pulled that last story from. Enjoy our CBC? It's government funded propaganda you know. lol

I don't know casey anthony. Is this an american of repute?

David Jamieson

05-25-2011, 10:29 AM

also, just for you:

Two Canadian heart specialists have come out to say that there is no way that Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams needed to leave the country to have heart surgery.

Wilbert Keon, a heart surgery pioneer in Ottawa said there’s “no question” Mr. Williams could have been cared for in Canadian facilities.

“He’s going to have to admit that when he recovers and has to face you guys.”

Arvind Koshal, a prominent Alberta cardiac surgeon, said virtually all heart procedures available in the US are provided in Canada.

“The optics are very poor, especially for people who are proponents of the Canadian health-care system”

Williams did this not because he couldn't get the surgery here. Nor would he have to jump line or wait fro such surgery.

he did this for political reasons and to take a pot shot at our Prime Minister Stephen Harper (who I don't care for, but hey, he's PM and so be it).

But seeing as this is Canadian politics, I figure the only thing you can see is USA USA USA and so on. :rolleyes:

BJJ-Blue

05-25-2011, 01:42 PM

You gave one publicized example

That's all I needed to give to prove you were wrong. You said "ALL", so I only need one example.

Ready to admit you were wrong yet? ;)

BJJ-Blue

05-25-2011, 01:46 PM

also, just for you:

I asked you to source Mr Williams saying it as you allege he did in this quote:

Dude... Williams didn't need to go to the states. He knows it and has admitted as much. He never stated why he went and he is a grandstander and a shoe waver.

So again, please back that assertion up or admit you were wrong.

Or do what you always do when I press you to back up your false assertions, call me names.

wolfen

05-26-2011, 03:22 AM

If you can't see what it is we are talking about here, and how it is not about how a capitalist market works, then I leave you to your ignorance in which you may delight whilst you wallow in it.

We are talking about professional medical practice. Not what it will cost to remove a tumor.

Can you break from your constant diatribes about the value of a dollar please? BTW, mine is worth more than yours. Does that make me superior to you now that you have some weakass useless dollar that lacks the buying power of my lowly Canadian buck?

see how irrelevant that is to the conversation?

There is no capitalism in North America, In order to have capitalism , there must be capital to be used by the population.

In fact 95 percent of the wealth is owned by the top 5 percent and in actual effect 99 percent of the wealth is controlled by the top .01 of the population.

What the general population has is neither capital nor an economy, it is just the table scraps or a shadow economy. The real economy is owned and used by the power elite.
The system that has developed in North America is in actuality Economic Fascism.

The political class are the cultivated mandarins of the elite, massaging the public with lies , taking employment back and forth from political office to corporate boardroom passing laws to favor economic repression. the media and educational processes are owned by the elite and are the tools , of repression exploitation and fascism.

No Capitalism, no Democracy and really , No America, No Canada , Canada is a cultivated media myth. The TV people aren't real.
No Canada, No America only Canamerica.

Hockey is a mass delusion inculcated to make Canadians believe the fiction that they have a country.

Look at Greyhound Bus - controlled in Texas, owned in Scotland.
Oh Canada , no - No Canada.

Dollar, schmallar, All economic theory distributed through the media is confused obfuscation. Neither "Americans" nor "Canadians" have anything to do with their actual economy. Now really, only the top .01 percent are real Citizens, the rest just economic units of stock-market ectoplasm.

Some things not to think about, won't do you any good anyway.

"I wouldn't worry about it." - No country for old men.

David Jamieson

05-26-2011, 05:19 AM

I asked you to source Mr Williams saying it as you allege he did in this quote:

So again, please back that assertion up or admit you were wrong.

Or do what you always do when I press you to back up your false assertions, call me names.

I told you to go to the cbc. It's there, Williams is a **** and that's that. live with it dude, your system sucks and Williams is just a grandstanding goof. Sorry if the names hurt you. lol suck it up. You should expect it by now. :p

BJJ-Blue

05-26-2011, 07:01 AM

I told you to go to the cbc.

So once again you post untruths on here and then say I must find the non-existant proof to back up your assertions. :rolleyes:

Sorry if the names hurt you. lol suck it up. You should expect it by now. :p

They don't bother me at all. Actually they help me in these debates, they show your character, or lack thereof.

FYI, name-calling is not supposed to be tolerated on the forum, so no one should expect to be called names around here.

David Jamieson

05-26-2011, 07:16 AM

So once again you post untruths on here and then say I must find the non-existant proof to back up your assertions. :rolleyes:

They don't bother me at all. Actually they help me in these debates, they show your character, or lack thereof.

FYI, name-calling is not supposed to be tolerated on the forum, so no one should expect to be called names around here.

I didn't post untruths. You suppose so because you can't think past your hand.
I offered you proof, you rejected it, that's done. I'm not wasting time feeding your asinine suggestions 1bad so can it.

You're an idiot for calling character in an open forum where you use no real name, contribute nothing in the spirit of the forum and use the place as your toilet of stupid ideas and agenda.

Your last remark may as well come from a whiny thin skinned 6 year old tattle tale.

Lol character...like you have any whatsoever. :rolleyes: pffft.

BJJ-Blue

05-26-2011, 08:31 AM

I didn't post untruths.

Yes you did. You made a claim that is so obviously false and when asked to source said claim, you refused to, then told me to find it, then resorted to name-calling.

The "proof" you claim to have offered did not contain a quote where Mr Williams "didn't need to go to the states. He knows it and has admitted as much." I just want the quote of Mr Williams admitting he didn't need to come to the US for treatment. You said that he said it, so show me where he said it.

My money is on you not sourcing it. Let's see if I'm right. ;)

BJJ-Blue

05-26-2011, 08:33 AM

Lol character...like you have any whatsoever. :rolleyes: pffft.

My character is such that I don't resort to name-calling in a political discussion. The same cannot be said about you.

David Jamieson

05-26-2011, 10:34 AM

My character is such that I don't resort to name-calling in a political discussion. The same cannot be said about you.

what are you 12? Get real man. Your expectations change like I change socks. Your whole MO is distract/burn/distract/burn/drop a lie/distract/burn/distract/demand and on and on it goes.

as transparent as a window really is what you are.

and then instead of continuing the debate, because you look like an ass with your single source that has been refuted by a person who actually knows and understands the full context of the situation, points you in the direction of where to find the information and you refuse and reject.

yeah, that pretty much makes you fully worthy of being called all kinds of names.

And YOU, trying to play the maturity card is as funny as f*ck. :rolleyes:

bonehead is too kind for you.

BJJ-Blue

05-26-2011, 11:25 AM

what are you 12? Get real man. Your expectations change like I change socks. Your whole MO is distract/burn/distract/burn/drop a lie/distract/burn/distract/demand and on and on it goes.

I've actually sourced when I've been asked to. I usually post the source anyway without being asked.

I'm not burning, distracting, or lying, I'm just asking you to source an allegation you said was true. As to who is distracting and lying, you are doing it as we speak. Just post a link/source to Mr Williams admitting he didn't need to come to the US for treatment as you allege and the matter will be closed and I'll have to admit you were right.

Or you can lie, distract, and call more names. My money still is on you not being able to source the allegation because I'm sure you lied about it. But feel free to prove me wrong for everyone to see. ;)

BJJ-Blue

05-26-2011, 11:27 AM

Your expectations change like I change socks.

Not at all. I'm always expecting you to resort to name-calling when you are asked to source your false allegations.

David Jamieson

05-26-2011, 11:30 AM

I've actually sourced when I've been asked to. I usually post the source anyway without being asked.

I'm not burning, distracting, or lying, I'm just asking you to source an allegation you said was true. As to who is distracting and lying, you are doing it as we speak. Just post a link/source to Mr Williams admitting he didn't need to come to the US for treatment as you allege and the matter will be closed and I'll have to admit you were right.

Or you can lie, distract, and call more names. My money still is on you not being able to source the allegation because I'm sure you lied about it. But feel free to prove me wrong for everyone to see. ;)

NO you haven't.

Crikey, and now to avoid more stupid, you change this topic around to some stupid little peeing contest. You really are a piece of work. You'd probably cut your own nose off to spite your face. lol

whatever kid, have a juice box, go run around an spout your nonsense. :rolleyes:

sanjuro_ronin

05-26-2011, 11:52 AM

Dude... Williams didn't need to go to the states. He knows it and has admitted as much. He never stated why he went and he is a grandstander and a shoe waver.

Actually David is quite correct here.
We have soem of the best hospitals and doctors in Canada, Princess Margaret is one of the best Cancer hospitals in the world as is sick kids.
He could have had his heart surgery done in Alberta for example, where one of the best heart surgeons in the world works.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/danny-williams-travels-to-us-for-heart-surgery/article1452524/

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/759760---danny-millions-williams-heads-south-for-heart-surgery

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/williamss-heart-surgery-choice-was-based-on-ignorance/article1480937/

David Jamieson

05-26-2011, 01:02 PM

some folks can't believe that a millionaire asshat like danny williams would run off and do what he liked simply because he was a millionaire asshat who could do so.

It's not really about usa vs canadian healthcare, it's about danny williams being a say one thing do another jerk off politician with a few million bucks.

He basically left his whole province i doubt when he didn't have to.
He has admitted as such, but like a certain someone up in this thread, is just a belligerent cork about it.

there is zero that can be done in the states that cannot be done here with equal quality of care and skill of physicians and surgeons. NOTHING.

the windows for new procedures between our countries is nil almost.

anyway, it's moot now. Thanks 1bad. :rolleyes:

BJJ-Blue

05-26-2011, 01:09 PM

Actually David is quite correct here.

He may not have needed to come here, I cannot prove or disprove that part. But I want him to back up his assertion that Mr Williams "admitted" he didn't need to come here.

David Jamieson

05-26-2011, 01:18 PM

He may not have needed to come here, I cannot prove or disprove that part. But I want him to back up his assertion that Mr Williams "admitted" he didn't need to come here.

:rolleyes: oh lord...thick as a post.

BJJ-Blue

05-26-2011, 02:08 PM

:rolleyes: oh lord...thick as a post.

Just back up your assertion. Show where Mr Williams "admitted" he didn't need to come to the US for treatment.

The only quote of his I saw was in Sanjuro's links. “I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics.” That doesn't sound like him admitting he didn't have to come here for treatment.

David Jamieson

05-27-2011, 05:44 AM

Just back up your assertion. Show where Mr Williams "admitted" he didn't need to come to the US for treatment.

The only quote of his I saw was in Sanjuro's links. “I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics.” That doesn't sound like him admitting he didn't have to come here for treatment.

sorry, but you're an idiot and I am just going to treat you as such going forward. :p
You are looking for a direct statement that is cut and dried. The actuality is not that, so you can't play some tautological game here. His aids, teh doctors here and his own comments are quite clear that it was not required he go to the states and that he did it by his own volition and it had nothing to do with availbility, doctors skill etc etc. Just Danny being a jerk like usual.

sanjuro_ronin

05-27-2011, 05:59 AM

Just back up your assertion. Show where Mr Williams "admitted" he didn't need to come to the US for treatment.

The only quote of his I saw was in Sanjuro's links. “I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics.” That doesn't sound like him admitting he didn't have to come here for treatment.

At best Williams was an idiot, at worse he was making a sad political statement that backfired big time, though it didn't seem to effect him politically at all.
As the article from the globe and mail ( a very conservative newspaper here) showed, Williams was, it seems, ignorant of the options available to him here.
They are being kind.
Williams has always been an ass but his province liked him.

Brule

05-27-2011, 06:04 AM

Not only his province but also the satire comedy shows loved him. Man i miss those shows.....22 min - air farce. At least we still have Mercer.

Syn7

05-29-2011, 02:51 PM

Socialized medicine systems are failing all over the world, not just in Canada.

And of course people overuse meds up there, the drugs are 'free'. That's another huge problem socialized medicine brings, demand skyrockets. Why not go to the doctor if you are sneezing? If your stomach feels heavy, just go to the hospital. It's 'free' after all. That's why EVERY time it's tried the beaurocrats who set the costs are ALWAYS underestimating the demand which invariably results in lines, waits to see specialists, and death panels.

So you advocate murdering leaders who you do not agree with when you cant get them out of office using the democratic process?

wow... who said murder??? you sure make giant leaps in your head there doncha... you sure seem to love the democratic process... yet when the palestinians DEMOCRATICALLY ELECT hamas, you have issue with that... and i bet you even advocate violence against hamas... and you cannot prove to me that hamas isnt reacting to israeli aggression... just like i cant prove israel is only reaction to palestinian aggression... its all so very subjective... and more people have died from american friendly fire and collateral damage than hamas could kill in 100 years... but what? yall the good guys because your electorate is more evolved??? but for the record, yeah, i believe some people dont deserve to live... and thats different than saying they deserve to die... hopefully you gotta handle on that and we can just leave it there...

anyways, its not just canadiands that have a huge pharma culture... even tho we get alot for free, there is just as much if not more pharma abuse in the states... im sure the american ratio is alot higher than most states with socialized medicine...

anyways, you have no evidence to support any claims you make... just other peoples opinions that happen to have been published somewhere... not that i go out of my way to find good refrences for socialized medicine, i just dont care... we're fine, and we will be fine... as long as im taken care of im happy... and i am, i hget fat=r more than i deserve... and im cool with that...

Syn7

05-29-2011, 03:15 PM

Correct. My father-in-law is a general practicioner. He only charges $35 for an office visit, and as a result he has a very, very large practice. He also has about $2 million in his retirement account.

You can be successful AND be affordable. Most just know they don't have to reasonable because the demand is so high that people will pay more just to be seen quickly. And it's not just welfare cases that crowd the offices...you'd be surprised at how few physicians actually accept medicaid-type patients.

yeah and im willing to bet your father in law also works harder and has a better set of ethics than the guy down the street who makes 2/3 as much yet sees only 1/10 as many patients...

also, just to clear it up, in canada you can recieve private health care and pay out of your pocket... you dont have to leave canada for private care with no waiting... canada is spread out pretty thin in some places and its probably just alot easier for some folks to cross the border that is 20 km away rather than going 700 km to the next big city in canada for better healtyh care. especially in ontario and quebec, crossing over for care may be more about logistics and overall cost than it is about better or worse care...

and for the record, i can walk into the ER here and be seen withing minutes... and i live in the 3rd largest city in canada...

and southern ontario and quebec are like the as$hole of canada so im sure they wait tons... :p

maaaaan im am thankful to be from where im from... i can lay on the beach and bake in the sun and i can snowboard and zipline in the snow then go home for a fresh meal and hit up the urban life downtown later at night then wake up the next day and go fishing or rock climbing... not many places on earth that have all that at once... but if you dont like green and wet, a few months a year in vancouver will be your own personal hell... but i love it... it gives us so much... the only other place ive even come anywhere close to liking as much was the bay area in cali...

Syn7

05-29-2011, 03:58 PM

There is no capitalism in North America, In order to have capitalism , there must be capital to be used by the population.

In fact 95 percent of the wealth is owned by the top 5 percent and in actual effect 99 percent of the wealth is controlled by the top .01 of the population.

What the general population has is neither capital nor an economy, it is just the table scraps or a shadow economy. The real economy is owned and used by the power elite.
The system that has developed in North America is in actuality Economic Fascism.

The political class are the cultivated mandarins of the elite, massaging the public with lies , taking employment back and forth from political office to corporate boardroom passing laws to favor economic repression. the media and educational processes are owned by the elite and are the tools , of repression exploitation and fascism.

No Capitalism, no Democracy and really , No America, No Canada , Canada is a cultivated media myth. The TV people aren't real.
No Canada, No America only Canamerica.

Hockey is a mass delusion inculcated to make Canadians believe the fiction that they have a country.

Look at Greyhound Bus - controlled in Texas, owned in Scotland.
Oh Canada , no - No Canada.

Dollar, schmallar, All economic theory distributed through the media is confused obfuscation. Neither "Americans" nor "Canadians" have anything to do with their actual economy. Now really, only the top .01 percent are real Citizens, the rest just economic units of stock-market ectoplasm.

Some things not to think about, won't do you any good anyway.

"I wouldn't worry about it." - No country for old men.

hahaha... i like this guy...

we think somewhat alike, friend...

BJJ-Blue

05-31-2011, 06:56 AM

You are looking for a direct statement that is cut and dried.

Which you claimed existed.

It's ok. We can all see you for what you are, someone who is either a liar or someone who believes and regurgitates propoganda. You've been caught numerous times making allegations and when challenged you often times cannot back up those assertions. But go ahead, keep telling us things like the Federal Reserve is a private corporation. It just shows your grasp, or lack therof, of the issues.

BJJ-Blue

05-31-2011, 07:17 AM

wow... who said murder??? you sure make giant leaps in your head there doncha... you sure seem to love the democratic process...

The guy who posted this:

"if i could snuff him out i would..."

Sounds like someone advocating murder to me.

yet when the palestinians DEMOCRATICALLY ELECT hamas, you have issue with that... and i bet you even advocate violence against hamas...

The only issue I have is that they elect Hamas, a known terrorist organization, and then expect to be taken seriously when they call for peace. If you want peace, elect leaders who call for peace, not people who call for terrorism. Doesn't Hamas even go so far as saying Israel doesn't even have the right to exist?

So no, I don't have a problem with the process at all. But I have a problem when people practice it and vote in terrorists and then complain when they aren't taken seriously in the peace procress. You have to accept the consequences of your actions.

and you cannot prove to me that hamas isnt reacting to israeli aggression... just like i cant prove israel is only reaction to palestinian aggression... its all so very subjective...

Truly you can't be serious. Look at the last few years. Look at who has ALWAYS broken the cease fire agreements. Not once was it Israel. Not once. So while you can't prove Israel has broken the cease fire agreements, I can easily prove their enemies have.

and more people have died from american friendly fire and collateral damage than hamas could kill in 100 years... but what? yall the good guys because your electorate is more evolved???

People dying by accident is alot different than people being targetted. Do you really need to have that pointed out to you?

And yes, we are the good guys. It's not because of our electorate. It's because we don't call for innocents to be slaughtered. We aren't calling for hijackings, beheadings, stoning of rape victims, and death to Israel. Our leaders don't address the United Nations while carrying a firearm, theirs do. We don't teach our children that the greatest thing they can do with their lives is strap a bomb on themselves and kill a bunch of Jews, Americans, or any other "infidels".

but for the record, yeah, i believe some people dont deserve to live... and thats different than saying they deserve to die... hopefully you gotta handle on that and we can just leave it there...

I see your point. But in our culture we make that decision based on a persons actions. If ysomeone commits (and is convicted of) crimes whose punishments include the death penalty, we in effect say they don't deserve to live. While they say people don't deserve to live based on their religion or country of residence.

anyways, you have no evidence to support any claims you make... just other peoples opinions that happen to have been published somewhere...

What specific claims that are not opinions do you want me to back up? Unlike David, I will do that if asked.

Of course if you are going to call me to back up assertions, I would hope you are fair about it and ask David to do so as well when it is called for.

not that i go out of my way to find good refrences for socialized medicine, i just dont care... we're fine, and we will be fine...

Actually your system is a drain on your country's finances. And like just about every other example of socialized medicine it's costing more than it was supposed to cost, and the lines are long enough people are leaving to have life-saving procedures done in other countries.

David Jamieson

05-31-2011, 07:30 AM

What specific claims that are not opinions do you want me to back up? Unlike David, I will do that if asked.

Of course if you are going to call me to back up assertions, I would hope you are fair about it and ask David to do so as well when it is called for.

you're a ****ing ass hat 1 bad

why don't you just shut up and keep your little right wing wing nut diatribes to yourself you dang fool.

You don't back anything up, deal in absolutes, source from nefarious and dubious right wing publications and stay far away from any opinion that is truthful and yet contrary to your own mixed up and confused outlook on the world, which I attribute to you simply being a belligerent ass hole.

and now, I'm sick of you and your brand of **** and so you get relegated to the goof pile with hw108.

you can expect I won't comment on your crap anymore, so maybe you can write something about how happy you are about that. IN the meantime, adios you fukin fat ass brain dead loser. lol

ignored! :p

BJJ-Blue

05-31-2011, 08:41 AM

you're a ****ing ass hat 1 bad

Yet more name-calling from you. It's to be expected.

I just won't stop asking you to prove your assertions. Get used to it. Of course we can all see you're once again name-calling in an attempt to get the thread locked so you can once again post lies and not have to prove them.

why don't you just shut up and keep your little right wing wing nut diatribes to yourself you dang fool.

Why don't you just back up your assertions?

Show where Mr Williams "admitted" he didn't need to to come to the US for treatment. You claimed he said it, so finding the quote should be easy. Unless of course you lied and said he said something he didn't actually say. ;)

You don't back anything up,

LMFAO!!!! If I listed every source I've linked too, it would be easily over 100. How many have you done. Please, just stop lying.

deal in absolutes,

Guilty as charged on that one. Right is right, and lies are lies. And when I say someone said something, I source the article or video of them saying it.

source from nefarious and dubious right wing publications

I thought I didn't back anything up? Which is it? :rolleyes:

and stay far away from any opinion that is truthful and yet contrary to your own mixed up and confused outlook on the world, which I attribute to you simply being a belligerent ass hole.

Man, you REALLY want this thread to be locked so you can once again escape without having to post a source. Can't you debate without name-calling? Aren't you above that?

you can expect I won't comment on your crap anymore, so maybe you can write something about how happy you are about that. IN the meantime, adios you fukin fat ass brain dead loser. lol

Just ask MK to lock the thread. ;)