New Videos from the Bagua Historical Swordsmanship Project: Chopping Sabre vs. Butter

[gilbride100]

New Videos from the Bagua Historical Swordsmanship Project: Chopping Sabre vs. Butterfly Knives, and Bagua Knife Experiment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mallewEmmvo

This bout is part of the Bagua Historical Swordsmanship Project, a side-project of Cateran Society president Chris Thompson. In this video, Chris is using the chopping sabre method of Yin Fu Baguazhang against the butterfly knives of Combined Combatives instructor Al Giusto.

Bagua Knife Experiment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUbET7hzBOE

In the study of history, a “commonplace” is a statement that has been repeated so many times that it is no longer questioned- almost everyone takes it as a fact, without ever checking for themselves if it’s really true. “Commonplaces” are a big problem in the martial arts. One often hears seemingly authoritative statements made by respected instructors that have actually never been tested or checked with primary sources to determine their validity. People often become attached to their favorite commonplaces, holding onto them in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

One of the purposes of the Bagua Historical Swordsmanship Project is to take no commonplace at face value, but to check and see what really happens. I expect to find that some of them are true, some of them are false, and with some of them it depends on context. In this video, I’m checking out the commonplace that the principles of Bagua weapons usage are contained in the empty-hand forms of the art, and that it should be possible to use Bagua weapons without specific training in them as long as you train in the palm changes. To test this notion, I fought a bout with rubber knives against an opponent using a different form of knife-work. My goal was to use my knife with a method based on the Yin Fu Bagua penetrating palms. Although I’ve done a fair amount of knife work in general, I have no Bagua-specific knife training and am simply improvising based on my practice of the palm changes. You can judge the results for yourself. Is this commonplace true or false- or something in between?

Two caveats are in order. One is that a single experiment against a single opponent doesn’t really prove anything- it’s just a step in the right direction. The second is that a knife vs. knife duel such as we are depicting in this bout is something that can only happen by mutual consent, the granting of which would be proof of suicidal insanity and/or stupidity. So this should not be seen as a “self defense” type of situation, but more as a “proof of concept” experiment. If it’s really true that the Bagua empty-hand forms contain the basic skills of Bagua weapons work, I should be able to do okay in this bout without any specific Bagua knife training, and I should be able to do so while retaining a Bagua “flavor” to some extent.

You can decide for yourself if I succeeded, but whether I did or not isn‘t really the point. The point is that we should never accept anything at face value merely because we heard it first from someone we respect. We should try to find out for ourselves. This attitude is becoming more and more common in traditional martial arts, yet it still meets with a surprising amount of resistance. My contribution to the debate is to apply empirical methods to the historical Bagua weapons- rather than relying on oral tradition about “the way things were” I want to see for myself to the extent that I can. In this way I hope to get closer to the truth behind the tradition.

[Grumblegeezer]

As a long-time student of Wing Chun and Eskrima I found both those videos profoundly painful to watch. The manner in which the demonstrators approached these encounters was so far removed from how these weapons were intended to be used...or probably would be used in combat, that I cannot imagine extrapolating any useful information whatsoever from this, er ...play. --Sorry.

[ironclaw1981]

As a long-time student of Wing Chun and Eskrima I found both those videos profoundly painful to watch. The manner in which the demonstrators approached these encounters was so far removed from how these weapons were intended to be used...or probably would be used in combat, that I cannot imagine extrapolating any useful information whatsoever from this, er ...play. --Sorry.

I totally agree, that was so bad its almost pitifully funny!!

[David Jamieson]

The lack of understanding displayed is palpable. Seriously.
The best thing these fellows could do would be to take up fencing and learn how to attack with intention and remain somewhat safe. then revisit the specialized weapons and learn what they can about them.

Having a weapon doesn't mean you are suddenly blessed with understanding how to use it. Even firearms require some limited training before you can start making decent groupings and actually hitting targets.

Also, they need a Pell. lol It changes your body flow when you use full force strikes.

[gilbride100]

What is your experience with weapons- solo forms? Padded weapon "sparring"? The fact is, if you don't bout regularly with full-weight weapons, your opinion is worth nothing.

[David Jamieson]

What is your experience with weapons- solo forms? Padded weapon "sparring"? The fact is, if you don't bout regularly with full-weight weapons, your opinion is worth nothing.

My experience with classical weaponry is fair to extensive depending on the relative education of who I am with.

I am quite adept at all forms of fencing, use of long, single side and double bladed weapons. I am also versed in Staff and short blunted weapons such as maces, hardwhips and the like.

The training displayed in the video is virtually useless in that format. I would suggest they join a club that practices with wooden weapons, proper armour if using "live" weapons and a good course in using devices such as a pell to develop strength and weapon retention.

[gilbride100]

Well, all I can say is that my own experience with weapons use and training is extensive. Chinese arts are cross-training for me rather than my primary style. Within my primary style of Highland broadsword fencing I've been training, teaching and competing for twelve years. I have fought any number of bouts with full-weight weapons against practitioners and instructors from many different styles. And one thing I've noticed is that the vast majority of CMA practitioners are living in fantasy-land when it comes to the actual use of the historical Chinese weapons. A handful of CMA practitioners are working very hard to revive the art of fencing with these weapons, and are very good at it. Most, however, really don't know the first thing about it. That doesn't stop them from sharing their opinions, though- quite the opposite. People who actually know a thing or two about how to use these weapons consistently express very different opinions from the ones I see on CMA forums. There's a reason for that, and it's that most CMA folks seem to be basing their opinions of weapon use on their experience with solo forms, or on sparring with lightweight padded weapons that behave nothing like the real thing. So you get people who are good at playing tag with nerf weapons or at performing elaborate forms with no opponent, and the second they see anyone trying to actually bout with realistic weapons, they pronounce it "useless" or "painful to watch." Why? Because they wouldn't know what good weapon-fencing looks like in the first place.

[David Jamieson]

Weapon application is driven by principles of use associated with the weapon.
Not so much by forms practice. There is a lot of erroneous material in weapons forms to begin with, but if we look at any set, we will see a limited amount of applications expressed in a variety of ways.

Still, a single sided blade can draw, thrust, parry, turn, rotate and flat strike.

These same principles apply to double edge and the emphasis now changes to focus on thrust instead of slash, where as with the machete or big knife weapon is most effectively used for slashing (drawing).

So, a pu di dao has an extension to it that makes it superior when dealing with short weapons simply because you have a length advantage, can keep your distance and effectively use the weapon at range.

My opinion on those vids is that those individuals would get more value out of sparring with wooden versions of the weapons, weighted if they want the authentic weight and to move with full intention.

I would also suggest adding a Pell or dummy to the training as far as striking drills go. there is nothing that will show you were you lack in footing or retention of a weapon more than fully striking with it and you can't really do that with a training partner, hence the value of the device.

Using live weapons, slowly in the manner as depicted in those videos is ineffective and could indeed develop bad habits of usage. BUT, I will add that these weapons are basically hobby interest only and are not viable weapons in the reality of day to day use of weapons.

Classical weapons are interesting and are fun to learn. They are strictly a hobby though because they have lost 99% of their military value to guns. in the last 500 years.

In the last century, they have become completely outmoded and are only part of dress uniforms now. Knives are more of a survival tool than a weapon these days.

So, for societies of creative anachronism, sword training is great. For reality it's a hobby that is more worthwhile than fapping or video gaming in my opinon. lol, but I am not so out of touch with reality that I don't see that my practice of these things is outmoded and not in keeping with the reality of combat in modern times.

[EarthDragon]

gillbride

Well, all I can say is that my own experience with weapons use and training is extensive. Within my primary style of Highland broadsword fencing I've been training, teaching and competing for twelve years. I have fought any number of bouts with full-weight weapons against practitioners and instructors from many different styles.

dude you cant be serious........................... is that you in the video? and this is your extensive expereince shown in that vid?

and to boot you consider yourself a teacher and have been doing it for 12 years? not to sound mean but pehaps you should ask YOUR teacher for your money back.

[bawang]

And one thing I've noticed is that the vast majority of CMA practitioners are living in fantasy-land when it comes to the actual use of the historical Chinese weapons.

you are right. but your video is also very bad.

[kristcaldwell]

any issues pertaining to skill (or lack thereof) aside; it would seem rather childish and short-sighted of you to post videos on a forum for peer-review and then tell everyone that their opinion is not valid because of lack of experience.

one has to wonder if you would be so discrediting if we all left favorable reviews of you and your "abilities."

[bawang]

chinese saber is not used for dueling its for flanking heavy spear infantry. it doesnt need "proving". theres no technique involved. the japanese tai dao is superior and chinese saber borrow heavily from the japanese.

chinese straight sword is nearly useless. chinese straight sword was extinct, then someone in ming dynasty recovered a manual from korea.

[gilbride100]

This is a more typical example of what I do, using Western historical weapons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-kW5wrwXZU

And yes, I am willing to put my skills with these weapons up against anyone. Here is an example of a bout between me and a well-known instructor of German longsword:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeLQfbi4KAM

I cross-train in Bagua and, as an experienced Western historical fencer I naturally find it interesting to bout with Chinese weapons as well. That particular bout was done relatively slowly for safety and then was edited in slo-mo as well, which seems not to have been understood by everyone that viewed it. As you can see from these additional videos I bout at a range of speeds and intensity levels.

It's too bad that people here didn't enjoy the bout, but no I would not consider most CMA practitioners to be qualified to judge it. Other historical fencers are in a much better position to know what they're looking at. My reputation as a teacher and a combatant in Western historical fencing circles can be discovered easily by asking around.

[IronWeasel]

New Videos from the Bagua Historical Swordsmanship Project: Chopping Sabre vs. Butterfly Knives, and Bagua Knife Experiment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mallewEmmvo

This bout is part of the Bagua Historical Swordsmanship Project, a side-project of Cateran Society president Chris Thompson. In this video, Chris is using the chopping sabre method of Yin Fu Baguazhang against the butterfly knives of Combined Combatives instructor Al Giusto.

Bagua Knife Experiment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUbET7hzBOE

.



Dang....

Video 1 looks like two teenagers out in the yard pretending to play World of Warcraft . I'm guessing the guy with the Butterfly Knives is an Elf.



Video 2 looks like a Bagua video that keeps buffering, because he keeps stopping and standing there in a static stance. The Elf that you're trying to stab must be first level, or else he would have beat you already and taken your gold.


I'm glad that you two are, at least, outside...you could both use the exercise.

Protip #1: wear shorts only, and go full force with a pair of sharpie markers for knives. Much more realistic.

You're welcome. :cool:

[gilbride100]

Wow. I'm going to bow out of this conversation now, because the level of *******-ness is just too much for me to deal with. So a bunch of self-haters who wish to God they were doing MMA don't like my video. I guess I'll just have to learn to live with that.

[wenshu]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.urlesque.com/media/2010/05/hatersoldier.jpg


It's not even particularly good LARPing. . . Where are your costumes?

What, can't find a cardboard box to fashion yourself some armor?

Bashing each other with sticks while wearing a fencing mask doesn't make anything "historical" or any more realistic than a wushu jian routine.

[bawang]

what is it with white people and a lack of shame lol

[IronWeasel]

I should be able to do okay in this bout without any specific Bagua knife training, and I should be able to do so while retaining a Bagua “flavor” to some extent.

You can decide for yourself if I succeeded



Okay..

To conclude: Bagua people shouldn't touch weapons.

[lkfmdc]

I clicked on this thread and now

MY EYES MY EYES MY EYES!

Let me tell you, that was terrible, hideous, disgusting, stupid and just plain wrong

[Violent Designs]

At least you have good taste in music.

Assemblage 23 yes?

[Violent Designs]

what is it with white people and a lack of shame lol

no tradition of saving face?

[Violent Designs]

Much superior test of Miao Dao sword vs. Kendo sword

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pqjRwb3RhM&feature=related

[Syn7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSDSsereOdg&feature=related

[David Jamieson]

"Historical" fencing often equates to " I've never actually received formal training in fencing, but I loved watching Ivanhoe as a kid and when I bought this sword, it just comes natural".

Well, no it doesn't.

Get formal training in weapons if you are going to pursue them. There are still quite a lot of really good fencing masters and there are also many Kung fu teachers and of course Japanese martial arts such as Kendo including Iaido etc etc.

Those of us who have invested time get extremely annoyed by those of you who are fecking wankers when it gets down to it. :mad:

[Drake]

Really... I knew kids like you. Would slap around with these things in the backyard, thinking you were some super warrior.

I will repeat the sentiments posted here. Terrible. Absolutely terrible.

And they are butterfly SWORDS, by the way. Americans are the ones who got in the habit of calling them knives. You can even call them bamboo leaf swords if you like.

Oh, and I do have experience in history, combatives, and Chinese MA. Even learned a bit of BJJ and Karate when I was younger.

You can get defensive, throw a fit, and berate everyone here, bud... it doesn't make your video any less godawful. Learn to take criticism.

[David Jamieson]

And they are butterfly SWORDS, by the way. Americans are the ones who got in the habit of calling them knives. You can even call them bamboo leaf swords if you like.



No they aren't. They are butterfly knives wu dip = butterfly dao=knife or in wing chun's case they are called Bhat Jarm dao or 8 cut knives.

The mistake most commonly made in regards to this double weapon is that people also call a balisong a butterfly knife.

wu dip dao and balisongs are two completely different things after all.

anyway, just saying, they are knives and they are not swords and are not known as swords in the systems that include them.

I freakin love wudipdo. I have a couple of sets and I like the set I got from Gene here.

[B-Rad]

I don't think the problem is that you're experimenting and sharing videos of those experiments, I think it's that you're treating it as some kind of serious academic historical study when you don't have the background to do so. How much time was spent actually trying to seek out expert opinion on these weapons and their usage? I think you need more than a couple years of bagua training, some playing around with one guy who does jianshu, and participating in an obscure club focused on western broadsword.

[taai gihk yahn]

piffle

you want "da r3alz"? talkin OWLD SKOOL!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDzz00OANAk&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8LfjTLoFrU&feature=related

[lkfmdc]

piffle

you want "da r3alz"? talkin OWLD SKOOL!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDzz00OANAk&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8LfjTLoFrU&feature=related

Taai's home movies again! ;)

[Drake]

No they aren't. They are butterfly knives wu dip = butterfly dao=knife or in wing chun's case they are called Bhat Jarm dao or 8 cut knives.

The mistake most commonly made in regards to this double weapon is that people also call a balisong a butterfly knife.

wu dip dao and balisongs are two completely different things after all.

anyway, just saying, they are knives and they are not swords and are not known as swords in the systems that include them.

I freakin love wudipdo. I have a couple of sets and I like the set I got from Gene here.

I'll bet you one prostitute that you are wrong.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah, wow, just wow...
ass meet suckage.

Could have been worse though.

[David Jamieson]

I'll bet you one prostitute that you are wrong.

I'll forgo the prostitute, but I am not wrong.

How is "dao" = sword? It is "knife".

If it was "sword" it would be "Jiàn"

It would then be called wu dip jian

or bhat jarm jian.

anyway, go ahead, make your case, I'm truly interested in understanding how it is that you are convinced they are swords and not knives.

[sean_stonehart]

I'll forgo the prostitute, but I am not wrong.

How is "dao" = sword? It is "knife".

If it was "sword" it would be "Jiàn"

It would then be called wu dip jian

or bhat jarm jian.

anyway, go ahead, make your case, I'm truly interested in understanding how it is that you are convinced they are swords and not knives.

He's correct & you owe a Las Vegas special to him.

[David Jamieson]

He's correct & you owe a Las Vegas special to him.

But I need to know how it came to be that he thought they were "swords" and that America had made this error when for as long as I can remember, they've been called "dao".


also, what is a las vegas special? does it involve the clap because i'm not interested if so...:p

[Drake]

Dao (Chinese: 刀; pinyin: dāo; Wade–Giles: tao1, "knife") is a category of single-edge Chinese swords primarily used for slashing and chopping (sabres), often called a broadsword in English translation because some varieties have wide blades. In China, the dao is known as one of the four major weapons, along with the gun (staff), qiang (spear), and the jian (sword), and referred to as "The General of All Weapons". Dao is actually a generic word used to denote any member of a family of single-edged, broad-bladed cutting or slicing tools, but in common, everyday usage means knife. The weapon, also known as dan dao 單刀 (single knife) when just one is used, is thereby thought to be an adaptation of the kitchen knives common to Chinese cuisine. Dao also appears in the names of such polearms as the pudao and guan dao, indicating that their blades were primarily intended for slashing and cutting attacks rather than stabbing ones.

[Drake]

But I need to know how it came to be that he thought they were "swords" and that America had made this error when for as long as I can remember, they've been called "dao".


also, what is a las vegas special? does it involve the clap because i'm not interested if so...:p

It's a common western mistake, where we translate as literal.

[David Jamieson]

Dao (Chinese: 刀; pinyin: dāo; Wade–Giles: tao1, "knife") is a category of single-edge Chinese swords primarily used for slashing and chopping (sabres), often called a broadsword in English translation because some varieties have wide blades. In China, the dao is known as one of the four major weapons, along with the gun (staff), qiang (spear), and the jian (sword), and referred to as "The General of All Weapons". Dao is actually a generic word used to denote any member of a family of single-edged, broad-bladed cutting or slicing tools, but in common, everyday usage means knife. The weapon, also known as dan dao 單刀 (single knife) when just one is used, is thereby thought to be an adaptation of the kitchen knives common to Chinese cuisine. Dao also appears in the names of such polearms as the pudao and guan dao, indicating that their blades were primarily intended for slashing and cutting attacks rather than stabbing ones.

dude...are you snorting anthrax or something? THis reiterates that Dao = KNIFE.

look at what I have bolded for you in your own dang quote for cripes sake!

Regarding the term "general of all weapons" that is reserved for "Kwan Dao" or General Kwan's knife.

:rolleyes:

dao is knife ok? It is not sword, it is knife. dao applies to knives that are attached to poles and to short bladed weapons and as well to the single edge small handled da dao also known as a broadsword.

however, the term is and always has been knife. Big knife!

Jian is sword. (gim)

[sean_stonehart]

But I need to know how it came to be that he thought they were "swords" and that America had made this error when for as long as I can remember, they've been called "dao".

Who knows? I can make suppositions, but they'd just be suppositions & poorly made at that.



also, what is a las vegas special? does it involve the clap because i'm not interested if so...:p

Probably not & very pricey for him.

[kristcaldwell]

am i the only one who prefers the use of the nomenclature "sabre" as opposed to "broadsword" for the common, northern-style dao that we all do "broadsword" routines with?

...and yes; that was one h3ll of a run-on sentence.

[Drake]

dude...are you snorting anthrax or something? THis reiterates that Dao = KNIFE.

look at what I have bolded for you in your own dang quote for cripes sake!

Regarding the term "general of all weapons" that is reserved for "Kwan Dao" or General Kwan's knife.

:rolleyes:

dao is knife ok? It is not sword, it is knife. dao applies to knives that are attached to poles and to short bladed weapons and as well to the single edge small handled da dao also known as a broadsword.

however, the term is and always has been knife. Big knife!

Jian is sword. (gim)

Jian is a STRAIGHT sword. Again, you are literally interpreting something that covers a large array of TYPES of knives, to INCLUDE swords. You were nice enough to bold my quote, selectively choosing what your interpretation saw fit.

I'll take the word of my GM, who spends a huge chunk of time in China, over an arrogant Canadian who thinks he knows everything.

[Lucas]

am i the only one who prefers the use of the nomenclature "sabre" as opposed to "broadsword" for the common, northern-style dao that we all do "broadsword" routines with?

...and yes; that was one h3ll of a run-on sentence.

i basically call any single curved(and some straight) edge blade a sabre. for example if i were to use an english term for katana it would be sabre, scimitar sabre, cutlas sabre, etc.

but that may just be me, there are straight bladed sabres as well...US cavalry comes to mind.

[David Jamieson]

Jian is a STRAIGHT sword. Again, you are literally interpreting something that covers a large array of TYPES of knives, to INCLUDE swords. You were nice enough to bold my quote, selectively choosing what your interpretation saw fit.

I'll take the word of my GM, who spends a huge chunk of time in China, over an arrogant Canadian who thinks he knows everything.

You only perceive arrogance. It's not actually there. lol

Maybe you should check with your GM one more time. perhaps you didn't hear him correctly. :)

I'll take the Chinese language and categorization of the weapons as my guide.

[wenshu]

Somehow this thread managed to become even more retarded.

[David Jamieson]

Somehow this thread managed to become even more retarded.

nope, it's holding a pattern of just as retarded as before. :p

[wenshu]

You only perceive arrogance. It's not actually there. lol

Maybe you should check with your GM one more time. perhaps you didn't hear him correctly. :)

I'll take the Chinese language and categorization of the weapons as my guide.

I see that masters degree in linguistics with specialization in East Asian semantics is serving you well.




***
Words do sometimes have more than one meaning Professor Chomsky.

http://www.nciku.com/search/zh/detail/%E5%88%80/1302926
刀 [dāo]
1. noun [指工具] knife
2. noun [刀状物] blade

刀对刀，枪对枪
sword against sword and spear against spear

[MasterKiller]

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s258/VomitingBlood/ugh.jpg

[wenshu]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_vd_zVJKziTE/TPvqQiVfhKI/AAAAAAAAA_4/LCPnMYBaLAU/s1600/eye+bleach.jpg

[B-Rad]

You only perceive arrogance. It's not actually there. lol

Maybe you should check with your GM one more time. perhaps you didn't hear him correctly. :)

I'll take the Chinese language and categorization of the weapons as my guide.

Dao refers to a pretty wide variety of items that are not considered knives in English. Knife is just as close as you get with a single word since it's usually sharp and single edged. I'm not going to call a sabre a knife just because that's the literal translation. Lots of things in Chinese don't translate all that well literally. In this case though, I think I'd side with you because butterfly knives are small enough and used in such a way that I still consider them knives. Plus, that's by far the most common agreed upon translation in the community that uses the things.

[IronWeasel]

am i the only one who prefers the use of the nomenclature "sabre" as opposed to "broadsword" for the common, northern-style dao that we all do "broadsword" routines with?

...and yes; that was one h3ll of a run-on sentence.


I always thought that a sabre was a curved blade of uniform width.

The broadsword is wider as it nears the tip.

Maybe 'scimitar' is a better western word than 'sabre' for the broadsword.

[Lucas]

some scimitars are of uniform width too.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Talwar_Hind%C3%BA_SXVII.jpg


i basically call any single curved(and some straight) edge blade a sabre. for example if i were to use an english term for katana it would be sabre, scimitar sabre, cutlas sabre, etc.

but that may just be me, there are straight bladed sabres as well...US cavalry comes to mind.

im probably just lazy :P

im thinking you could use either although scimitars i believe are all curved.

[David Jamieson]

I see that masters degree in linguistics with specialization in East Asian semantics is serving you well.




***
Words do sometimes have more than one meaning Professor Chomsky.

http://www.nciku.com/search/zh/detail/%E5%88%80/1302926
刀 [dāo]
1. noun [指工具] knife
2. noun [刀状物] blade

刀对刀，枪对枪
sword against sword and spear against spear

nevertheless mr.Webster, wu dip dao = butterfly knives and they aren't long enough to be swords to begin with, so, let's take a big crap here and get it over with.

8 cut knives. not 8 cut swords. not butterfly swords and on a kwan dao, the blade is a knife strapped to a pole.

so, now it's "blade" and not "sword" anymore?

I mean, you guys can go on all you want, but you're wrong period.

It's butterfly KNIVES. Language is there for a reason. lol

so chomsky on that a bit will ya. :rolleyes: lol

[Drake]

Do you speak Chinese?

[Drake]

I have a mixed vocabulary of Cantonese terms from CLF training, and Mandarin from my own personal studies. Still working on the writing part, but vocally, I'm getting down the tonalities and basic sentences and questions.

[David Jamieson]

Do you speak Chinese?

:rolleyes: enough to know that dao is knife and not sword. lol

As an aside, how long have you formally studied Kung Fu and what style?

[Drake]

:rolleyes: enough to know that dao is knife and not sword. lol

As an aside, how long have you formally studied Kung Fu and what style?

So not long enough, then?

Martial arts for 15, total. CLF for about 6. Deployments, field exercises, PhD courses, and constantly moving slows my training to a crawl, though.

[David Jamieson]

So not long enough, then?

Martial arts for 15, total. CLF for about 6. Deployments, field exercises, PhD courses, and constantly moving slows my training to a crawl, though.

Plenty long enough.

You are incorrect and you look foolish in your continued assertion that butterfly knives are swords.

But keep yapping I guess. :rolleyes:

[Drake]

Plenty long enough.

You are incorrect and you look foolish in your continued assertion that butterfly knives are swords.

But keep yapping I guess. :rolleyes:

Calling me names doesn't make you any less wrong.

[Violent Designs]

Dao does not mean sword.

Jian means sword.

Dao means knife.

It can be a 12-feet long Da Dao.

And it would still be a knife.

[Drake]

Also means single-edged sword. We keep bumping into these western blocks, don't we?

[Drake]

Dao does not mean sword.

Jian means sword.

Dao means knife.

It can be a 12-feet long Da Dao.

And it would still be a knife.

The jian is a double-edged straight sword used during the last 2,500 years in China. The first Chinese sources that mention the jian date to the 7th century BCE during the Spring and Autumn Period;[1] one of the earliest specimens being the Sword of Goujian. Historical one-handed versions have blades varying from 45 to 80 centimeters (17.7 to 31.5 inches) in length. The weight of an average sword of 70-centimeter (28-inch) blade-length would be in a range of approximately 700 to 900 grams (1.5 to 2 pounds).[2] There are also larger two-handed versions used for training by many styles of Chinese martial arts.



A jian is a TYPE OF SWORD. A gim is a TYPE OF SWORD. You are basically telling me that Ford equals carm, and that isn't true.

And FYI... there are a good 36 different meanings for the word "dao".

Someone here who actually speaks Chinese please, PLEASE back me up here.

[Violent Designs]

The jian is a double-edged straight sword used during the last 2,500 years in China. The first Chinese sources that mention the jian date to the 7th century BCE during the Spring and Autumn Period;[1] one of the earliest specimens being the Sword of Goujian. Historical one-handed versions have blades varying from 45 to 80 centimeters (17.7 to 31.5 inches) in length. The weight of an average sword of 70-centimeter (28-inch) blade-length would be in a range of approximately 700 to 900 grams (1.5 to 2 pounds).[2] There are also larger two-handed versions used for training by many styles of Chinese martial arts.



A jian is a TYPE OF SWORD. A gim is a TYPE OF SWORD. You are basically telling me that Ford equals carm, and that isn't true.

And FYI... there are a good 36 different meanings for the word "dao".

Someone here who actually speaks Chinese please, PLEASE back me up here.

Dude I love you and all, but seriously...

http://rob.nu/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/facepalm7.jpg

[IronWeasel]

some scimitars are of uniform width too. .


**** my worthless brain!!:o


At least these are all 'S-words' -- in my best Sean Connery voice

[Lucas]

not at all! i think the tricky part is its all cross cultural. so in essence its what ever works i think.

if i was SUPER lazy i would just call them ALL swords :D

[Drake]

Horse-chopper Broadsword (Chahn Ma Do) 鏟馬刀

Two-Edged Single Straight Sword (Dahn Gim) 单劍

Double Daggers (Seung Pei Sau) 双匕首

Single Broadsword (Dahn Do) 单刀

Single Commander’s Saber (Dahn Ji Fai Do) 单指揮刀

Double Broadsword (Seung Yiu Do) 双腰刀

Southern Double One Edged Swords (Nam Seung Do) 南双刀

As I have been saying... swords do not always use the same word. Note the use of the word "gim" and what it is used for. Thank you, drive through.

[David Jamieson]

The jian is a double-edged straight sword used during the last 2,500 years in China. The first Chinese sources that mention the jian date to the 7th century BCE during the Spring and Autumn Period;[1] one of the earliest specimens being the Sword of Goujian. Historical one-handed versions have blades varying from 45 to 80 centimeters (17.7 to 31.5 inches) in length. The weight of an average sword of 70-centimeter (28-inch) blade-length would be in a range of approximately 700 to 900 grams (1.5 to 2 pounds).[2] There are also larger two-handed versions used for training by many styles of Chinese martial arts.



A jian is a TYPE OF SWORD. A gim is a TYPE OF SWORD. You are basically telling me that Ford equals carm, and that isn't true.

And FYI... there are a good 36 different meanings for the word "dao".

Someone here who actually speaks Chinese please, PLEASE back me up here.

how about this.
jian = mandarin
gim=toisanese/cantonese

they are noth the same character. Jian = sword period (same with gim)

and there are plenty of people who speak chinese here. I'm guessing they don't want to get involved in this stupid argument you started about how americans make the mistake of calling butterfly knives, knives because you have been told that they are actually swords. :rolleyes:

anyway, like I said, hang onto your thing i that's what keeps you hanging on, but on this point about butterfly knives, you are wrong.

butcher knife, butter knife, bowie knife... all knives right?

no western bump. It really and literally is knives. wu dip dao are knives.

[Drake]

how about this.
jian = mandarin
gim=toisanese/cantonese

they are noth the same character. Jian = sword period (same with gim)

and there are plenty of people who speak chinese here. I'm guessing they don't want to get involved in this stupid argument you started about how americans make the mistake of calling butterfly knives, knives because you have been told that they are actually swords. :rolleyes:

anyway, like I said, hang onto your thing i that's what keeps you hanging on, but on this point about butterfly knives, you are wrong.

butcher knife, butter knife, bowie knife... all knives right?

no western bump. It really and literally is knives. wu dip dao are knives.

Do you even know what dao means?

The guy who told me happens to be a native speaker of Mandarin AND Cantonese, though I couldn't tell you what particular dialect.

Short of reading something an interpreting it literally... what is YOUR basis for your assumption?

[Drake]

*giggle*

http://www.fleasyads.com/viewitem.php?sid=0&item=170606920896

[David Jamieson]

Do you even know what dao means?

The guy who told me happens to be a native speaker of Mandarin AND Cantonese, though I couldn't tell you what particular dialect.

Short of reading something an interpreting it literally... what is YOUR basis for your assumption?

Having been formally trained in the use of them with my Kung Fu teacher?

It's not an assumption, the word dao in context is Knife.

Why do you insist on dragging this out? Your stupid is getting painful here Drake.

Please stop. lol

[Drake]

*giggle again*

http://www.shenmartialarts.com/displayitem.asp?catalogid=1&id=15&origcat=3

[David Jamieson]

*giggle*

http://www.fleasyads.com/viewitem.php?sid=0&item=170606920896

why not just go up to the top of the page?

you had to dig for that and you know it. lol

But if you would like me to drown you in links that call them knives, I suppose I could, but this is just dumb, you're argument is incorrect, your premise is wrong and you have only a hair of truth that you are trying to make into a wig.

Just tap already :rolleyes: lol

Here's a pic of my half decent set.
http://www.theknightshop.co.uk/catalog/images/SH2067x.jpg

I bought em from here. they're good.

[Drake]

Why would I be the one tapping when I have you in the RNC?

[Drake]

Where's Bawang when I need him?

[Violent Designs]

i speak mandarin but don't take my word for it if you don't want to.

i'm just throwing out my 2 cents.

whatever it's worth.

[David Jamieson]

Where's Bawang when I need him?

:rolleyes:

holy crap, you know what? You can call em what you want lol
I'll be using my butterfly knives and you use your butterfly swords.

ok? lol :p

[Drake]

:rolleyes:

holy crap, you know what? You can call em what you want lol
I'll be using my butterfly knives and you use your butterfly swords.

ok? lol :p

I shall call them floating plum blossom petals that hover above heaven.

Glad that's over...

Back to stupid backyard sword training videos then?

[David Jamieson]

Horse-chopper Broadsword (Chahn Ma Do) 鏟馬刀

Two-Edged Single Straight Sword (Dahn Gim) 单劍

Double Daggers (Seung Pei Sau) 双匕首

Single Broadsword (Dahn Do) 单刀

Single Commander’s Saber (Dahn Ji Fai Do) 单指揮刀

Double Broadsword (Seung Yiu Do) 双腰刀

Southern Double One Edged Swords (Nam Seung Do) 南双刀

As I have been saying... swords do not always use the same word. Note the use of the word "gim" and what it is used for. Thank you, drive through.

all "do" = knife
the gim = sword

the english transliterations are incorrect but they are there for the non chinese speakers benefit so they can associate the weapon effectively.

[B-Rad]

Do you even know what dao means?

The guy who told me happens to be a native speaker of Mandarin AND Cantonese, though I couldn't tell you what particular dialect.

Short of reading something an interpreting it literally... what is YOUR basis for your assumption?

Dao 刀 means knife. I don't think it's really debatable. You can debate whether or not in English we should call them swords, but they're certainly small enough to fall into the typical English definition of knife too, imo.

[Drake]

Dao 刀 means knife. I don't think it's really debatable. You can debate whether or not in English we should call them swords, but they're certainly small enough to fall into the typical English definition of knife too, imo.

It doesn't directly mean knife in the western sense...

[Violent Designs]

it means knife in the CHINESE sense then.

[Drake]

it means knife in the CHINESE sense then.

I can give you a hug. Would you like a hug? I give great hugs.

[B-Rad]

Butterfly knives are knives in both the western and Chinese sense. They're small cutting weapons (so a knife in the western sense) and single edged cutting instruments (knife in the Chinese sense). :p

[Violent Designs]

I can give you a hug. Would you like a hug? I give great hugs.

ew

im not gay like bawang

go give him hug

[bawang]

your mother is have gay
fuk to you

[ShaolinDan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01NHcTM5IA4

[Drake]

Ok, I'm the first one to admit when I'm wrong.

I did the research, and went back over my studies.

I was wrong. OK?! I WAS WRONG.

But they ARE called bamboo leaf knives sometimes. :D

[taai gihk yahn]

Newbie OP posts video asking for "honest" opinion
KFMers trash it
OP attempts rebuttal, but no can defense
OP realizes he wanted to just be liked for what he posted and leaves in a huff
KFMers pick at carcass for a while, but then tire of such sport and find some reason to turn on each other, bickering over minutiae
DJ announces that he doesn't give a crap about what anyone else thinks / says / does, so filled is he with ebullience of doing things his own way
Gayness ensues between various KFM'ers
Bawang engages in pithy invective
A video is posted that is peripherally related to the topic at hand, that involves an '80's cultural reference
Thread is recapped in dryly humorous manner

[IronWeasel]

Newbie OP posts video asking for "honest" opinion
KFMers trash it
OP attempts rebuttal, but no can defense
OP realizes he wanted to just be liked for what he posted and leaves in a huff
KFMers pick at carcass for a while, but then tire of such sport and find some reason to turn on each other, bickering over minutiae
DJ announces that he doesn't give a crap about what anyone else thinks / says / does, so filled is he with ebullience of doing things his own way
Gayness ensues between various KFM'ers
Bawang engages in pithy invective
A video is posted that is peripherally related to the topic at hand, that involves an '80's cultural reference
Thread is recapped in dryly humorous manner



Awesome.....

You have read many thousands of posts. :D

[Syn7]

Newbie OP posts video asking for "honest" opinion
KFMers trash it
OP attempts rebuttal, but no can defense
OP realizes he wanted to just be liked for what he posted and leaves in a huff
KFMers pick at carcass for a while, but then tire of such sport and find some reason to turn on each other, bickering over minutiae
DJ announces that he doesn't give a crap about what anyone else thinks / says / does, so filled is he with ebullience of doing things his own way
Gayness ensues between various KFM'ers
Bawang engages in pithy invective
A video is posted that is peripherally related to the topic at hand, that involves an '80's cultural reference
Thread is recapped in dryly humorous manner

yeah but come on taai... anything less would just be uncivilized... if we cant pick on eachother about dumb sh1t, how else are we supposed to feel good about ourselves??? how else do we create an aura of superiority over people we claim to not care about one way or another, huh??? tell me that one, mister "im such a big boy now coz i dont wanna be a j3rkoff to everyone around me for no reason so i can pretend like i have a life outside internet arguments!!!"

come on now, let us drag you into the abyss... its where you belong and you know it... :cool:

[David Jamieson]

You want ebullience?

I got yer ebullience right here!


RIGHT HERE!!!!

LOOK AT IT!!! GAZE UPON MY SHINY PILE OF EBULLIENCE!!!


Thanks Chris, awesome word! lol

[bawang]

It doesn't directly mean knife in the western sense...

dao means chopper. jian means stabber.
the distinction is from the stone age when the dao was rectangular shaped and was very distinct. the dao could not stab and jian could not chop. in the iron age they were combined into one weapon aka the modern dao.

[Syn7]

dao means chopper. sword means stabber.
the distinction is from the stone age when the dao was rectangular shaped.

i have a dope rectangular chinese knife... i love how it feels in my hand... and its all one piece, no wood handle... all steel...

[bawang]

i think too much attention and unhealthy fetish is given to swords.

too much larping.

[Violent Designs]

your mother is have gay
fuk to you

did i die? yes

did you win? NO

[bawang]

i am winer
you never win NEVER

i beat u mentally

[Violent Designs]

does the sky fall rain?

no

rain fall from sky

just like u

i are liek sky own U

motherFUKER

[bawang]

you are a ying yang man

stink man woman

[bawang]

he no answer he scare

[Syn7]

he's totally scared... you ****ed em up, son!

[Northwind]

I was a bit disappointed originally, as the title of this thread sounded interesting as hell! Oh well. But I did enjoy the ensuing language battle to say the least! I'm personally battle language issues now - got english lyrics to form movements, found some old Chinese ones & trying to translate those are driving me nuts.

On a side-note - I've always thought the butterfly knives were extremely interesting, but have not had the opportunity to learn anything with them :(