having two sifus [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

shaolin_allan

03-06-2011, 02:54 PM

SanHeChuan

03-06-2011, 03:34 PM

I think its cool.

I've trained with multiple people at a time, off and on, since begining MA.

I know a (imo, good) Sifu who is a disciple of atleast two teachers, and regularly travels the country to train with others.

Violent Designs

03-06-2011, 03:51 PM

How "experienced" are you in either system?

From personal experience it is better to be a master of something than a jack of .... nothing. Not saying you can't cross-train (you should!!!) but I don't think Bagua and Wing Chun share any principles?

They might even have conflicting principles? Not sure, don't train either.

But I would honestly focus on getting on down straight before picking up another, at least this is just my opinion.

Now focusing on Wing Chun and grappling is something else.

shaolin_allan

03-06-2011, 07:30 PM

sanhechuan what styles were you practicing in and cross training at the time? Wing chun seems to have a lot of similar concepts as wudang systems so I was hoping itd be okay or to do like wing chun and xing yi. I used to do bagua for 2 years off and on but its also been a few years now since I trained in it. I've been doing the wing chun for six months.

Hebrew Hammer

03-06-2011, 07:35 PM

Sounds like a 70's love ballad...'Torn between two sifus...feeling like a fool...'

Grumblegeezer

03-06-2011, 08:47 PM

Hi everyone I am in a situation where I want to keep doing wing chun with a sifu a couple of days a week. I've been doing it off and on for six months now. I am also wanting to return to my previous sifu and continue the bagua training I had started years back. Has anyone else here been in the situation where you've had two sifus? Would you consider this a good idea or a bad one? Should I just pick one camp?

Two styles? Bad idea. Devote your every breathing moment to Wing Chun, give your Sifu total unquestioning loyalty, and more importantly, great gobs of cash in small, unmarked bills. BTW the fact that I am your Wing Chun Sifu has in no way biased my perspective! LOL

Seriously Allan, I'm just glad you are able to get back into training again. Bagua is a cool system too. It's just a matter of how much can you really handle at once, especially when you factor in school, your health, and finances. Not to mention that you've expressed an interest in continuing with the Eskrima as well. I would focus on picking one thing and doing it well at this stage, but that's up to you. Whatever you decide, I'll work with you. At least you're lucky to have plenty of good options. People post here all the time saying they can't find what they are looking for. --Sifu Steve

shaolin_allan

03-06-2011, 09:06 PM

Hey sifu Steve! It's good to see you on this forum but your nickname grumblegeezer doesn't fit you well because it makes you sound like you complain but you seem like a positive outlooker on things to me :) You can actually still find some great threads on this forum even though rare, you just have to look. I saw in another thread asking what people's favorite wing chun techniques are but gan and tan sao at the same time as a strike at least on the inside seem to be the way to go from what you taught me. It can be used quickly with little thought. By the way i'll have that briefcase of unmarked bills you asked me for lol. I do agree, people seem to have trouble finding what they want these days but Phoenix has some good instructors.

David Jamieson

03-07-2011, 05:54 AM

Yep, I've had 3 at the same time.
lol

It's all good as long as you can invest properly into teh study of what each has to over.

Don't overextend your own ability to meet the practice requirements.

dimethylsea

03-07-2011, 06:11 AM

I think it's all about "what do you have time for?".

Most of us are hard pressed to study multiple styles sequentially (train one for a few years, switch to a new teacher, do that for a few years) let alone multiple styles/teachers simultaneously.

You just have to be honest with yourself about the sort of time, energy and money you have to expend on your training.

shaolin_allan

03-07-2011, 10:47 AM

GeneChing

03-07-2011, 10:54 AM

I've been under two. Heck, I've been under three under the same roof (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1028913&postcount=36) (they were all Shaolin brothers, but there's still that 'do it my way' issue). It really depends upon the masters themselves and how they work with it. Some are more possessive/Confucian than others. Some are more sharing. My first sifu, Wing Lam, really encouraged me to seek out more at Shaolin Temple, as well as with Sun Jianyun.

kristcaldwell

03-07-2011, 11:08 AM

gene,

seeing as how he is, in many ways, responsible for my journey into CMA, i would sometime like to hear your reflections on training under wing lam.

SPJ

03-07-2011, 11:43 AM

learning from several teachers at the same time, probably o/rite.

but learning 2 different styles/systems at the same time would be tough.

I learned french and german at the same time.

h is not pronouced in french

h is air sound in german

I had a tough time in the beginning, after a while I kind of know better.

the accent, in german, it has to be clear and stressed the second word to the last in a sentence.

the accent, in french, it has to be "slurred" or 2 words pronouced together, if connected to the vowel of the next word---

---

;)

Dr.Rob

03-07-2011, 11:53 AM

Good on you.

Many of the older peeps I have spoken with. Feel its bad. You may mix the systems and loose the inner mechanics.

I have trained 2 systems for 12 years at the same time. And still do. I try not to mix.(CLF long range, LY short range). My Sifu's were always aware when I went off to experiment...fencing, kendo, Wing Chun, Bagua or Iaido.

If you keep notes, a steady pace and train. You should be able to fill your weaknesses. No system is better than the other, they just have different things to offer. Also they are different packages.

Weapons vs ground game. Stance vs hands. Everyone has just 2 arms and 2 legs. If you can use them all your limbs well, you are doing better than most.

shaolin_allan

03-07-2011, 12:02 PM

GeneChing

03-07-2011, 12:04 PM

@kristcaldwell
Training under Wing Lam was an honor and a privilege. I wouldn't be where I am today without his tutelage and I'm embarrassed that I could only maintain a small fraction of his teachings. However, as you say, this is rather OT here. Perhaps we can take up this discussion on some WL thread in the Shaolin forum (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=6).

Back OT, I've always been a huge advocate of cross-training, however that should begin on the intermediate level, not the beginning level. I know a lot of students that never got anywhere because they never spent enough time under one system to get a good foundation. On the flip side, I've known plenty of students who started in the wrong style - and by that I mean a style that didn't fit their character - and they didn't progress as martial artists until they moved on to something else.

With TCMA, there's another issue and that's one of Confucian loyalty. To some degree, that's antiquated, especially with beginners here in the West. However, on a deeper level, it's all about loyalty. If you aren't grateful to your teachers, you don't really understand the tradition.

YouKnowWho

03-07-2011, 12:18 PM

I have trained 2 systems for 12 years at the same time. And still do. I try not to mix.(CLF long range, LY short range).
I have trained many systems. I find it's very difficult not to mix it. It's like eating salad, potato, seafood, and desert. It's impossible to keep it separate in your stomach. When you face a fight, it's very difficult to decide whether you should use WC "chain punches", Mantis "waist chop", Baji "elbow strike", XingYi "Beng Chuan", Longfist "jumping kick", SC "knee seize", Zimen "death touch", or Taiji "Qi ball" to kill your enemy. :p

Violent Designs

03-07-2011, 12:32 PM

I have trained many systems. I find it's very difficult not to mix it. It's like eating salad, potato, seafood, and desert. It's impossible to keep it separate in your stomach. When you face a fight, it's very difficult to decide whether you should use WC "chain punches", Mantis "waist chop", Baji "elbow strike", XingYi "Beng Chuan", Longfist "jumping kick", SC "knee seize", Zimen "death touch", or Taiji "Qi ball" to kill your enemy. :p

when having sex.

you don't think about whether you will use "***** thrust" or "***** thrust."

it all come naturally

SPJ

03-07-2011, 12:33 PM

in respond to YKW post about what to use.

whatever you do more will come out.

I was trying to say my broken french to a french college student that came to taiwan to learn chinese.

his chinese is better than my french.

we were watching a puppet show about 3 kingdoms, guan gong vs many generals, he passed 5 passes and took out 6 generals. in recently opened taipei youth park in 1970s.

I tried to explain tales of guan gong in french.

the french student told me that we may communicate in chinese.

what a relief, but also this pushed me to learn more french.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma5BOoSpB4E

I used chinese instead of french etc etc

:)

SPJ

03-07-2011, 12:37 PM

chinese puppet show is more complicated than french puppet show.

:)

dimethylsea

03-07-2011, 01:02 PM

thanks everyone for sharing your experiences. I figured there would be some who would say it's a bad idea, but I was also looking to see if others have worked with more than one sifu, so it looks like it is possible. I agree though that I really need to take a look at my time and health/energy to really see if I should stick to one teacher for now. Hey dim I saw that your styles listed you have kali and bagua which is similar to what I have done. What is your opinion on cross training in a style like kali while doing kung fu?

I would say, in no uncertain terms, if your money and time will allow DO IT. If you can get a background in FMA (kali, arnis, escrima) the pedagogical method and way of training they have will teach you a great deal about HOW martial arts can be trained. Most CMAs "teach martial arts according to a certain idea". FMA have a "different idea".
It's not just the "Wing Chun teaches this Shenfa and prefers these tactics, Bagua teaches this *other* Shenfa and prefers these tactics". That is true, but they teach their different shenfa and different tactics in a SIMILAR manner. FMA have a DIFFERENT manner of teaching tactics and strategy. It will be FAR FAR FAR easier to keep the two styles separate in your body and mind for a few years to study FMA *and* a CMA, than to study two CMAs at the same time.

I would honestly, if I were you, say "go with the CMA where you have the good involved invested teacher, and learn FMA as your cross-training". This is probably Wing Chun judging by your teacher's post in the thread earlier. Train those really hard for a few years. Wing Chun and FMA work well together (like peanut butter and chocolate). Bagua and FMA work well together (like coffee and chocolate). But Wing Chun and Bagua together (peanut butter flavored coffee???) will *fight with each other* much more.

That's my .02$.... and I wouldn't have put it out there if you hadn't asked me directly.
I'd go with the Wing Chun AND the FMA if I were you. Then once you have 3-5 years with two somethings relatively easy to get middling good at.. THEN go do bagua.

Reese cups for a few years.. then once you are an "Adult".. develop a taste for coffee.

Shaolindynasty

03-07-2011, 01:54 PM

With TCMA, there's another issue and that's one of Confucian loyalty. To some degree, that's antiquated, especially with beginners here in the West. However, on a deeper level, it's all about loyalty. If you aren't grateful to your teachers, you don't really understand the tradition.

Most here are focusing on the cross training aspect of having 2 sifu's but I think the loyalty issue is a much bigger one.

I've been training with my current sifu (choy lay fut) for along time. I've also done some cross training with another school (shaolin) that is within walking distance from my clf school. Cross training wise i am able to train both to some extent and my cross training in shaolin has helped with my clf but........

I can never really totally belong to the shaolin school and take part in performances and other activities because my loyalty lies with my clf sifu who shows me the same sense of loyalty as my sifu. With the 2 schools so close how can I help the shaolin school compete with my sifu. Also I don't feel it's fair to the shaolin instructors to not fulfill my duties as a student.

Interesting to note that i have cross trained is several other systems where this issue never came up. I suppose because those other instructors where never close or in direct competition with my sifu.

I guess you my point is you can have more than one teacher but you can't have more than one sifu, at least in the traditional sense, since the duties of a student to his sifu extend past learning kung fu and involve other duties to the system and school

SPJ

03-07-2011, 02:02 PM

1. in regards to learning 2 styles/systems at the same time

to me, a style/system is consisted of favored techiques/tactics/strategy

we compiled them together and gave them a theme.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSB2ew4P7e0

Sylvie put her favorite songs together and gave them a theme of twist.

she placed her own song at the end for finale.

---

my point is that ultimately, we have to organize what we have learned or gathered

and gave them our own theme

---

2. giving credits to teachers, I learned so and so from so and so. we have to give the teacher or teachers his or their credits.

---

:)

YouKnowWho

03-07-2011, 03:06 PM

whatever you do more will come out.

It's you that make that difference and not your styles.

when having sex.

you don't think about whether you will use "***** thrust" or "***** thrust."

it all come naturally
If your love one is happy (your enemy is killed), you know you are doing the right thing.

GeneChing

03-07-2011, 05:18 PM

If I told them once, I told them a thousand times - Spinal Tap first, puppet show second

@shaolin_allan - I did get to train under Grandmaster Sun Jianyun - a few private lessons and some group ones too. She was amazing and inspirational, and I'm rather embarrassed to say that I don't practice Sun style anymore (I can barely keep up with my Shaolin regimen (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56233)). My very first article for our magazine was on Sun Style. See 1997 December/January (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=64) issue, Radical Taiji: The Rising Sun of Taiji (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=419). Like with kristcaldwell, shaolin_allan, if you want to take this discussion up on our Tai Chi forum (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=12), I'll meet you down there.

Back OT to this forum, Wing Lam later became a disciple of Grandmaster Sun. I was sent as an early emissary, to pave the way in a manner of speaking. I presented her with a banner gift from Wing Lam. Strange as it may seem, I actually learned Sun Style before Wing Lam. But now, I've forsaken it. He still practices it, so there you have it.

Taryn P.

03-07-2011, 05:37 PM

I'm training at two different kung fu schools and two different BJJ schools.

There are ups (different perspectives, the ability to work on something else for a while whenever I get too frustrated, wider pool of training partners, bigger buffet of class dates/times..)

and downs (NOT ENOUGH HOURS IN THE DAY, getting conflicting instructions sometimes, political crapola, cost...)

Give it a trial run and re-eval in a couple months.

Ray Pina

03-08-2011, 09:02 AM

Train with as many people as you can as often as you can and you will see the results.

Ultimately, you'll see good mechanics, leverage and position are universal.... and that wing chun possesses none of these:)

SPJ

03-08-2011, 10:06 AM

in response to Gene

yes, it was chinese cultural festival in the park.

we were there to perform some swordplay, shuai jiao demo and long fists.

while we were taking a break.

I was naturally attracted to puppet shows. or bu dai xi or bo dei hi.

and this french college student was there and paid attention to puppet show.

so I started some conversation--

--

:cool:

YouKnowWho

03-09-2011, 01:57 PM

Syn7

03-09-2011, 02:18 PM

spj, you post the most random vids...

SPJ

03-10-2011, 07:35 AM

Teacher 1: You should always attack, attack, and attack. It's better to lose by attack than to win by defense.
Teacher 2: If your opponent doesn't move, you don't move. If he moves, you move faster than him.

yes. In tong bei, you hurry your attack one after another till the opponent is defeated.

in ba ji, you do not move lightly, when the opponent comes and presents an opening, you go at the same time and deliver a single fatal or decisive blow/strike/throw.

both are correct.

the former did not care if the first attack fails (expected to be countered), but keep going till you land your attack after several tries.

the later did not waste your move or energy lightly. observation first, the opponent comes, you move away and counterattack at the same time. you are doing your attack, I am doing mine.

:)

SPJ

03-10-2011, 07:57 AM

spj, you post the most random vids...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1MfblDF9EY

yes, there are many fine things in life, food, wine, music-- I like nature and close to nature, the closest thing for me would be swimming or in close contact with water--

if we only think about fighting all the time, we lose sight of something bigger--

the general of 57 division or running tiger division, hu beng.

the highest honor to award chinese army.

he had only 8000 men and was surrounded by 30,000 japanese elites.

he was in the eye of the storm, there were many more chinese forces in the whole area.

it was chang de campaign. it was the turning point, just like stanlingrad,

CKS was talking with winston churchill and president roosevelt in cairo

amid all these

he enjoyed the little tune or xiao diao from a local folk tune

not to be disturbed

he then went on to inspect his defense line and soldiers in the trenches of the front line facing the enemy

while he had all these fighting thoughts with him, he still could find time and relax to enjoy a fine music.

jade running tiger was a protective charm from his wife, he had nothing valueable with him, so he offered it to an officer that was about to get marry.

yes, he gave away his next best thing, he was ready to die for his country, too.

he was preparing himself first and then prepared his men.

---

general zhang ling fu of 74 division, he enjoyed chinese opera of mu gui ying, a grandma general that led song army to quench a rebellion--

while he was listening to the opera, he prepared all the battle plans.

--

for me, I watch fishes swimming in the pond and clouds in the sky

---

my point is that whatever helps you to think or organize your thoughts

and do not forget there are many good things in life other than fighting.

fighting is part of it, but it is not all, there is more--

--

Ray Pina

03-10-2011, 09:39 AM

Back OT, I've always been a huge advocate of cross-training, however that should begin on the intermediate level, not the beginning level. .

This is right on the money. I would say devote at least 3 years to one style. But before doing that, visit at least 5 schools if possible. And make sure one of the schools is a BJJ school.

Not saying to choose BJJ. But see what a somewhat standardized training program for competitive combatives look like.

No matter what style/school, things to look for are the most advanced students: they should be thick. Not necessarily big and muscular, but they have a heaviness to them. When they touch you they feel heavy.

Look to see how a 3 year student looks.

Are they sweating in class? Are they pushing themselves. Essentially, does it look like training or more of a lecture hall?

Think of what you want to be and see if they are it.

shaolin_allan

03-10-2011, 12:07 PM

everyone has left some really good information. let me tell you a bit about how each of these sifus differ. Sifu Steve my Wing Chun sifu's group is very small. On a good day there are maybe 3-5 students. All of us are newer students because the senior students under a close sihing to Steve, have become busy with life and cannot make it usually. I have seen them train though and they are really skilled at Wing Chun. Steve has been teaching me some Escrima as well in the past. The Northern Shaolin sifu teaches the Wudang and Beishaolin systems. His group is pretty well sized with 10+ students regularly at the Shaolin classes. He offers seminars at cost and also actually teaches Hung Gar which he is very good at. Both Tong Bei and Baji look like excellent styles from what i've seen. He only teaches the Shaolin Tong Bei form but he does teach Bajiquan regularly. I figured people would say to stick to one style for a while obviously, but I find it interesting to see other people who cross train and enjoy it. The problem is I don't have the time to fully dedicate myself to more than two styles, if that. Hey SPJ what movie is that you posted a link to? I want to watch it.

Ray Pina

03-10-2011, 01:16 PM

if we only think about fighting all the time, we lose sight of something bigger--

So true......

SPJ

03-10-2011, 06:39 PM

Hey SPJ what movie is that you posted a link to? I want to watch it.

it is called die xue gu cheng, bloodshed in a lonely city.

I bought the dvd. it is a 2010 movie about resistence war against Japan.

some dramatization here and there.

but overall it is a very good movie.

only 200 men out of 8000 survived the ordeal of defending chang de city alone.

--

it is studied as an example of defending a besieged city during those years.

---

:cool: