Chi Sau/Sao Et Cetera

[Phil Redmond]

Here's a clip for the recent MD Chi Sau seminar
Chi Sau forward intent
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2ZwYDbSK1k

This clip wasn't from the seminar but was from class in NJ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfOfpdn75RA

[Phil Redmond]

Here's some Dan Chi Sau
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VUuW4mdizQ

[Phil Redmond]

And some "Et Cetera"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg0nSAOpQ8A
Tan and Wu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1WLJRGA3_4

It's raining and I'm inside so excuse my video "rant" :D

[Graham H]

Interesting stuff although I am surprised at how different our lineages are. Your main focus is the wrist and ours is the elbow. By using the elbow in the way we do it allows us to attack and clear the way for the punch simultaneously. Two tools using one arm. With the wrist contact this would not be possible and would need two actions using one arm. My thinking on Ving Tsun sees that as an error. An error for my system that is. I also was a bit surprised how high the dummy was. Thats always the case with "wristy" systems. Our dummy sits a lot lower so we can use the arms as reference for the elbow and also teaches one not to flap the elbows about in fighting. This idea is everywhere in our forms an serves as a means of correction. Another big error in my lineage is pressing with Bong Sau but in your system its advocated.

Its very interesting how our lineage is for correcting errors that in yours are everywhere.

In our system Dan Chi is for correcting the error of using the wrist amongst other things yet your wrist seems to be locked to your students wrist.

As you know in our system Tan Sau and Fook Sau are concepts and methods for training and developing the correct way of punching. Many systems use Tan Sau to block and Fook Sau to move arms about. Its a massive faux pas in my lineage.
I'm not saying yours is any less effective in any way but the differences are so huge and yet our line to Yip Man is very close.

Hope its stopped raining LOL

GH

[Phil Redmond]

Interesting stuff although I am surprised at how different our lineages are. Your main focus is the wrist and ours is the elbow. By using the elbow in the way we do it allows us to attack and clear the way for the punch simultaneously. Two tools using one arm. With the wrist contact this would not be possible and would need two actions using one arm. . . . .
GH
I would never said our main focus is in the wrist. I said you use the wrist to move the arm and the elbow to control the arm. You use the wrist on the dummy.
Also our dummy is the way Yip Man designed it since the original plans for the first HK dummy were given the Cheung King Kong, William Cheung's older brother.
http://web.archive.org/web/20060717012604/www.springtimesong.com/wcforms4woodendummy.htm
I understand where you're coming from having studied the "mainstream" WC for 13 years. I was even a Sifu before I studied TWC. It's all good. I just prefer what I do now since it's worked for me in full contact events. Most fighters are headhunters so I teach to cover the head. Which is wrong and which is right depends of the fighter. I know people from outside my lineage that i wouldn't want to tangle with. That lineage superiority thing is moot to me. If you compete against people outside of your school you'll find what works for you and what doesn't.

[Graham H]

If you compete against people outside of your school you'll find what works for you and what doesn't.

I totally agree!!!! ;)

GH

[Phil Redmond]

Here's something I was taught by at least 5 of the WC Sifus I studied with over the last 40 years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJnu80hM4wE

[Graham H]

Ok, in our system the dummy does NOT represent human arms. The level and the angle of the "limbs" are important and are purely for training the correct behaviour of the elbow. Even though in some actions the wrist does touch the dummy limb, the action is from the elbow and we have to consider that the dummy is fixed therefore some actions like huen sau are not performed as they are on a human who's limbs move. The dummy looks as though it has human form hence the name "wooden man" but it is not a man. The dummy has evolved so that the practitioner can hone the correct behaviour of the body. It increases the special "shock" force needed and also contains some ideas of recovery and the correction of natural errors that humans tend to make in fighting and when a lot of speed and force are used. The dummy defines limits!!!

In previous lineages I have been taught that the arms represent human limbs etc etc but when I met my instructor many unanswered questions were answered and gaps filled in. For once everything fitted and clicked together.

Anyway these are just words but it is evident that Wing Chun is a very generic term these days.

GH

[k gledhill]

On the dummy our thinking uses the elbow &wrists as alignment points, like front sight , rear sight.
the wrists arent moving off the target, neither are the
fists/palms.
the dummy is simply reinforcing the unity of SLT & CK , aligned striking with tactical,mobile, facing movement of bodyweight and aligmmemt of cycling actions we repeat while firing along with other ideas........

[Phil Redmond]

Ok, in our system the dummy does NOT represent human arms. The level and the angle of the "limbs" are important and are purely for training the correct behaviour of the elbow. Even though in some actions the wrist does touch the dummy limb, the action is from the elbow and we have to consider that the dummy is fixed therefore some actions like huen sau are not performed as they are on a human who's limbs move. The dummy looks as though it has human form hence the name "wooden man" but it is not a man. The dummy has evolved so that the practitioner can hone the correct behaviour of the body. It increases the special "shock" force needed and also contains some ideas of recovery and the correction of natural errors that humans tend to make in fighting and when a lot of speed and force are used. The dummy defines limits!!!

In previous lineages I have been taught that the arms represent human limbs etc etc but when I met my instructor many unanswered questions were answered and gaps filled in. For once everything fitted and clicked together.

Anyway these are just words but it is evident that Wing Chun is a very generic term these days.

GH
If you're satisfied with your teachings and they make sense to you that's all that should matter. Right my friend?

[Graham H]

If you're satisfied with your teachings and they make sense to you that's all that should matter. Right my friend?

Right.:) :)

[Violent Designs]

Always presenting interesting and educational videos, Redmond sifu. I enjoyed these quite so.

[bennyvt]

really liked the first video, good explaination with potential forward force. really liked the bong stuff.
question is hoon sao is an elbow movement then why do you do it on a thing that doesn't move therefore practicing what you don't want to do.

[Phil Redmond]

really liked the first video, good explaination with potential forward force. really liked the bong stuff.
question is hoon sao is an elbow movement then why do you do it on a thing that doesn't move therefore practicing what you don't want to do.
Thanks, Around :53 there are two Huen Saus to the wrist. There is no way he would Huen at the elbow from the inside here.
After the Jut Saus here: 1:00 he Huens at the wrist. No one would Jut at the elbow and Huen at the elbow. I'd like to add that although there are slight various differences among students of Yip Man. I did the WC most people do for 13 years. I had the same questions and disbelief when I first saw TWC. My first reactions were that it was wrong, it's not WC and what the heck are they doing? OMT would you Huen to the elbow from the inside????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=581N17XHmq0

[Phil Redmond]

Always presenting interesting and educational videos, Redmond sifu. I enjoyed these quite so.
Thanks, I keep on TWChunning even though I'm outnumbered . . .lol

[k gledhill]

the 'potential' forward force, this is simply drilling elbow spreading of tan striking against the countering inward elbow jum strike, ergo guys get a vague idea about forward energy without a specific goal of developing striking . We use each other in chi-sao to strike our opposite elbow point...as we rotate we do tan v jum then rotate jum v tan iow each partner is using a strike with outside forearm [tan] v inside forearm [aka fook/jum] each fighter using both arms one outside line [tan] one inside line [aka fook/jum]....when you have this explained and feel the foolish wrist ideas ..theres no going back ;) btw the fook wrist is floppy relaxed because your developing the jums punching ELBOW, you make a fist when the arm is free to hit. Same as Tan we make a fist or palm to hit out of the tans elbow starting point to spread out from and back to the centerline...
When you enter the dummy sides we do it with tan and jum [sidepalms make elbows in] reason being we dont know which will be striking in the lead, tan ? jum, so we train the same idea as chi-sao , each is aligned towards the target, not a move with a high tan block and a low palm strike :D funny how many make it a floating rib attack .

time spent training in vt is no guarantee you will have met this idea ...even those exposed to it get confused and treat chi-sao as a game of tag and ego's and start losing the sophisticated ideas for chi-sao trap happy games. leading them further into seeking answers in redundant drills...size and strength mean little unless your aligning your force in controlled development, iow big muscle dont work with VT. BUT 'Aligned' big muscle is scary !! It made me realize why YM being so relatively short/small frame could do what he could...its not about size and strength...

dynamic iso-kinetics, iow to use each other with constant forward striking energy in a constant exchange, no elbows out , low, wristing...not easy. The basic stance becomes paramount in maintaining the integrity of the drills intensity, hips get forced forwards to fight the urge to move back or allow wrists to displace striking force, a bozo no-no [yeah Im that old :D]
If you strike further up on the forearms against each others punching elbow force you create an intense equilibrium of energy exchange, backed up by hips ,shoulders, legs , stance...very intense when done correctly, not so if you use wrists, waste of time with wristing, been there done that. we add movement, angling to tactical entry , etc....and more :D
When you meet this fighting you understand...doing chi-sao is too similar in redundant arm extension drills...fighting will make you aware of the value of a centerline occupied with aligned strikes that develop the mindless/mushin goal we are after....no thinking , just intuitive reactions, tactically etc....Im still training hard ! As WSL the man himself once told me as we walked alone to his car...its humbling to experience this method from someone who has mastered it.

[Phil Redmond]

. . btw the fook wrist is floppy relaxed because your developing the jums punching ELBOW, . ..
We differ here. The Chinese used terms to express the type of movement or energy used. Fuhk means control. A floppy Fuhk doesn't control and can be exploited easily. I know that from experience. But as I always say. Each to his own. Also time in the art is no guarantee of skill or knowledge. Fighting/competing against Martial Artists outside of you school is a better gauge. There is no other way to know if fighting theories will work in the real world. I respect most opinions but I respect the opinions of fighters over those who have not.
WSL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAqPPA8eK7w
:15 Jut at wrist

:28 Double Jut at wrist

:38 Gan at wrist

:45 Jut Huen at wrist

:51 bong at wrist



Chu Shong Tin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4rDLWIddaU
:10 Huen at wrist

:18 Bong at wrist
A Huen Sau can be at the elbow or wrist.

[k gledhill]

We dont control the opponents wrists with fook sao, we control OUR OWN elbow positions.
Yes it means control, but ....controlling my alignment, not to 'latch' onto an arm with a hook ....
We use the inward elbow and floppy fook wrist a lot to isolate the action to the ELBOW. An example of this is when we do angling steps in role playing to a tan step in....we respond by moving to the optimal counter-striking angle allowing us to face and fire, before the partner has even re-faced us....in this 'moment' i use the jum inward elbow strike while being able to slap the chest of the partner with a floppy hand, stances are also checked to make sure of aligned hips, ju-ying facing etc....like a bull v bull fighter, vt is both roles.
Theres a lot of complying actions to help each other rather than turn it into a kill you first thing. No death matches ! :D just isolating moments that flow later and are used in free fighting.
When we meet I will show you, you will like it. In some ways TWC does things we do too, but I dont claim to know it to your depth. Not surprising really given all came from the same tree....I have met students from P Bayer who are also confused by the levels they have, so its easy to see that even the same source cannot guarantee anything in terms of understanding. My students too, some I think understand ME , prove me wrong in impromptu Q & A sessions...go figure ~!:D:D
you have to feeeel .

saw your edit....ah yes, but what controls the wrist.....ELBOW.

jut is done by contracting and retracting the elbow to your centerline...the wrist makes contact becasue its the point that the opponets arm will meet it, along with our forearms, held in by ELBOWS...

double jut is controlled by elbows to striking ..intercepted fist makes a jut & strike

gaun is about returning elbows in back to tan as SLT : tan >Gaun sao> tan,,,tan gaun tan,,, hit block hit....hit with elbows in block low bring elbow back in and wrist aligned to strike with bodyweight behind it...same sequence is done on the dummy often.....using the dummy arm as a ging point and alignment elbows in wrists/forearms making contact.

jut lowering huen at wrist but the elbow is being held in tightly as the hues sao turns or it wont work on a rigid arm with force , like a real strike at my ribs.
bong wrist X's the centerline sightly to displace wrong force applied to it...iow if you push with a wrist on my bong it will move it sideways enough for my wu to make a strike in the ensuing gap made....

I saw things i wanted to see to relate to my old sifu V Kan, but when you are told and shown its different from what we see....you will be like me...I used to think i did what WSL did.

As for TST, he has his own ideas. elbows WAY out , he does chi-sao more like he is holding a big beaqch ball inside his arms and just uses this rolling arms to prevent entry to him in CHI-SAO..ie not fighting with strikes....

But you can judge for your self. Philipp explained the system as all about controlling our elbows. Ergo all of the elbows in doing the SLT to introduce us to this new idea, we never hold our elbows in like this during our daily lives.....except when we do VT !


why is the elbow of the fook held in so tightly ?
why when doing tan huen jum in SLT does the elbow /arm/wrist not move off the line ?

Why does the elbow move back to the centerline doing wu sao to fook sao ? defensive position to strike from [wu] to elbow back in striking as it sweeps the central lane of anything that might be coming at me, with wrist floppy iow all about elbow controll at high speeds in chaotic fighting scenarios.

[Phil Redmond]

When we meet I will show you, you will like it. . .
Having done your WC before I hope so. :)
I've already talked to two WT Sifus about doing a Friendship "Gathering" in NYC. (I got permission fro Marty Goldberg to use the term).
I think a friendly meeting of Wing Chun Sifus will promote good will and respect for our differences.
There are good and bad practitioners in all lineages. ;)

[Violent Designs]

Having done your WC before I hope so. :)
I've already talked to two WT Sifus about doing a Friendship "Gathering" in NYC. (I got permission fro Marty Goldberg to use the term).
I think a friendly meeting of Wing Chun Sifus will promote good will and respect for our differences.
There are good and bad practitioners in all lineages. ;)

Fighting has a lot to do with individual talent and skill.

And hard work, courage, determination, of course.

A number of factors.

Your "style" should NOT be a factor in creating a good fighter, but unfortunately this is the case, simply because of crappy training methodologies some teachers use, and very good ones in other "styles."

[k gledhill]

Let me know, i would like to go.

[k gledhill]

Fighting has a lot to do with individual talent and skill.

And hard work, courage, determination, of course.

A number of factors.

Your "style" should NOT be a factor in creating a good fighter, but unfortunately this is the case, simply because of crappy training methodologies some teachers use, and very good ones in other "styles."

I agree good fighters are few and far between....even more so in the VT world. Its been portrayed as a style using tan and and a hit, over trapping attacks, egg beater from hell punches a school kid could counter with a good hay-maker :D

[Graham H]

Good few posts there Kev ;)

GH

[sihing]

Having done your WC before I hope so. :)
I've already talked to two WT Sifus about doing a Friendship "Gathering" in NYC. (I got permission fro Marty Goldberg to use the term).
I think a friendly meeting of Wing Chun Sifus will promote good will and respect for our differences.
There are good and bad practitioners in all lineages. ;)

Phil,

You trained under WSL or one of his instructors before???

J

[Grumblegeezer]

Having done your WC before I hope so. :)
I've already talked to two WT Sifus about doing a Friendship "Gathering" in NYC. (I got permission fro Marty Goldberg to use the term).
I think a friendly meeting of Wing Chun Sifus will promote good will and respect for our differences.
There are good and bad practitioners in all lineages. ;)


A WC "friendship gathering"... sounds like an oxymoron to me! Now we regularly have FMA friendship gatherings here in my hometown, and I frequently meet guys who practice or even teach other branches of WC who also do FMA. We always have a great time. But still... can you imagine what guys like my old Sifu, LT and your sifu would say? How about Sifu Emin? Insanity!!! Well, I guess it's worth a try. If I lived in the area, I'd show up. We are a new generation of WC after all...

[Phil Redmond]

Phil,

You trained under WSL or one of his instructors before???

J
Yip Man's students may have slight variations of what they learned from YM but it's still YMWCK.
No, I've never "studied" with someone from WSL's school. I've studied YMWCK and have met people who learned WSL's take on YMWCK. WC people from different lineages used to work out behind the Band Shell in Central Park in the 70s and 80s.
The differences weren't that great. That's what I meant.

[Phil Redmond]

A WC "friendship gathering"... sounds like an oxymoron to me! Now we regularly have FMA friendship gatherings here in my hometown, and I frequently meet guys who practice or even teach other branches of WC who also do FMA. We always have a great time. But still... can you imagine what guys like my old Sifu, LT and your sifu would say? How about Sifu Emin? Insanity!!! Well, I guess it's worth a try. If I lived in the area, I'd show up. We are a new generation of WC after all...
A guy named Marty Goldberg had a couple of successful gatherings. I have friends from all lineages. WT/VT/WC, etc. It's all one family to me. The open minded people who can show up will. The closed minded won't. What cn I say??

[sihing]

Yip Man's students may have slight variations of what they learned from YM but it's still YMWCK.
No, I've never "studied" with someone from WSL's school. I've studied YMWCK and have met people who learned WSL's take on YMWCK. WC people from different lineages used to work out behind the Band Shell in Central Park in the 70s and 80s.
The differences weren't that great. That's what I meant.

Actually I have to disagree, IMO the differecnces are great as there's vast differences between the senior IM students interpretations among themselves, but that's another thread:)

Just wanted to clear that up then, as it's wise to have a good understanding of what people say. I'm sure if you and Kev ever met up, the understanding will be even clearer.

James

[sihing]

A guy named Marty Goldberg had a couple of successful gatherings. I have friends from all lineages. WT/VT/WC, etc. It's all one family to me. The open minded people who can show up will. The closed minded won't. What cn I say??

It's all one family, agreed, but it's a divided family. How can all these different variations and ideas come from the same source and all be right? The other forums laugh at us because of this as we can even agree on what a tan sau is (is it a spreading block or spreading strike???).

I'm all for freedom of expression, freedom to do what people want to do, as I personally don't care what people do with their individual Wing Chun, the problem exists whem people start promoting their ideas to others thru opening of a school, online tutorials and calling it "Wing Chun". All one has to do is search utube and see what the problem is, 99.9999% of it is crap IMHO. As Graham H said, everything you taught in your vids was an error in his system of VT, I find that funny, interesting and sad all at the sametime, but it's all under the same banner "Wing Chun".

James

[Phil Redmond]

Actually I have to disagree, IMO the differecnces are great as there's vast differences between the senior IM students interpretations among themselves, but that's another thread:) . .

Sifus, Senseis, etc., of many martial arts systems usually have different interpretations of what their teachers taught. Especially after the teacher's death. But they still maintain commonalities.

If I may ask. What other Sifus have you trained with outside of TWC? I'm just curious that's all.


. . .Just wanted to clear that up then, as it's wise to have a good understanding of what people say. I'm sure if you and Kev ever met up, the understanding will be even clearer.
James
For sure.

[Phil Redmond]

It's all one family, agreed, but it's a divided family. How can all these different variations and ideas come from the same source and all be right? The other forums laugh at us because of this as we can even agree on what a tan sau is (is it a spreading block or spreading strike???).
Well literally it's spreading arm/hand. . .lol. Yeah, I bit that one. But I do understand your point.


I . . . . As Graham H said, everything you taught in your vids was an error in his system of VT, I find that funny, interesting and sad all at the sametime, but it's all under the same banner "Wing Chun".
James
Yeah, I'm not one for saying someones martial art is in error. But that's me.

[sihing]

Sifus, Senseis, etc., of many martial arts systems usually have different interpretations of what their teachers taught. Especially after the teacher's death. But they still maintain commonalities.

If I may ask. What other Sifus have you trained with outside of TWC? I'm just curious that's all.


For sure.

In essence Ip Man's WC died when he died in 72', all that is left is what he taught his students and their interpretation of it IMO. I agree their should be commonalities, but from my research their's more difference btwn the various senior IM students than commonalities. WSL himself was always revamping and looking at what he did from the early 60's to the time of his death, they say IM did the samething, especially when he had to start teaching it.

After TWC, Gary Lam from 06-07', and Ernie since 06' till now. I've done allot of research on my own though, the information is available if one wants to find it. Gary and other sources shared allot of info about the early days, facinating stuff.

J

[sihing]

Well literally it's spreading arm/hand. . .lol. Yeah, I bit that one. But I do understand your point.


Yeah, I'm not one for saying someones martial art is in error. But that's me.

I know the "literal" interpretation is spreading hand deflection, but I've realized that doesn't mean much to a new student, so the practical meaning to me is a spreading strike, since I don't believe in blocking and punching type fighting techniques. The idea in my VT is to hit the guy more than he hits me, not blocking him and chasing hands.

In my book it's okay to critque something someone has put out there for display, as long as it's not personal. I may not agree with your way of WC, but it's not a personal thing, like I dislike you personally too, which is not the case here:)

J

[k gledhill]

tan elbow spreads away from centerline as fist hits ....why we do dan chi>chi-sao....using a vertical palm, it makes the elbow spread in the drills.
jum elbow contracts towards the centerline as fist hits ......the rest is what if that idea gets interrupted :D

[Graham H]

Yip Man's students may have slight variations of what they learned from YM but it's still YMWCK.
No, I've never "studied" with someone from WSL's school. I've studied YMWCK and have met people who learned WSL's take on YMWCK. WC people from different lineages used to work out behind the Band Shell in Central Park in the 70s and 80s.
The differences weren't that great. That's what I meant.

I'm going to disagree with you there as well Phil. The differences are massive!!!!

Even in my own lineage there are massive differences. People put it down to "interpretation"......it's not!!!! They simply don't know it!!!!

GH

[Graham H]

........to add......David Peterson made a comment the other day that somebody out there was marketing themselves as a genuine WSLVT Teacher when he only had a short meeting many years ago. These charlatans are everywhere and in my opinion is why WCK is so varied across the globe. I have had contact with these types myslef. There are a lot of clowns around that are more interested in money than preserving lineages!!! ;);)

GH

[Sean66]

I saw this statement by Mr. Peterson as well. Truly sad that there are so many charlatans out there.

I would like to add that there are also differences in the respective interpretations of ving tsun by Wong Shun Leung's long time students. David Peterson's ving tsun is not Gary Lam's is not Philipp Bayer's is not Wan Kam Leung's, is not Clive Potter's etc.

This is a normal and healthy thing for the system. Indeed, I would argue that it captures the real spirit of the Wong Shung Leung way of ving tsun. No one should strive to be a carbon copy of their teacher, and there is no place for dogma in the martial arts. In the end, it's your gong fu and it has to work for you when push comes to shove.

I think it's written in one of the taijiquan classics: The principals remain the same but the changes are infinite.

[Graham H]

I saw this statement by Mr. Peterson as well. Truly sad that there are so many charlatans out there.

I would like to add that there are also differences in the respective interpretations of ving tsun by Wong Shun Leung's long time students. David Peterson's ving tsun is not Gary Lam's is not Philipp Bayer's is not Wan Kam Leung's, is not Clive Potter's etc.

This is a normal and healthy thing for the system. Indeed, I would argue that it captures the real spirit of the Wong Shung Leung way of ving tsun. No one should strive to be a carbon copy of their teacher, and there is no place for dogma in the martial arts. In the end, it's your gong fu and it has to work for you when push comes to shove.

I think it's written in one of the taijiquan classics: The principals remain the same but the changes are infinite.

Point accepted Sean but I don't agree. A system is a system and functions specifically in certain ways. If the ideas are changed, things added or removed then the system becomes incorrect and therefore can no longer function properly.

It all comes back to the same old situation. Some people are bright, others not so bright. Some train hard, some do not. Some spend long periods under ones tuteladge and others not so much. It all effects the quality of the package and therefore what is passed on only attracts more error.

Its not only in Ving Tsun this happens, it happens everywhere. I just wish people in VT would not use the "interpretation" gimmic purely due to lack of knowledge.

Yip Man and Wong Shun Leung were two people with one method of Ving Tsun. Whilst things may have evolved a little you cannot reinvent the wheel as some have done. The guy David was referring to is a classic example of this problem as there is no way he can be teaching any correct ideas from WSL himself. Its easy to coin a few phrases and lead stupid people up the garden path.

To quote WSL....."A fool will only be followed by another fool!"

If anybody has read that article where that comment came from then you will know WSL explains things perfectly.

GH

GH

GH

[Vajramusti]

Interesting inputs from some people who are apparently in one of the WSL student's lineage.In the midst of the diversities- I am curious - what are some of the key wing chun principles that people think are clearly unique to WSL only and where is this core commonality in the wing chun of WSL's current HK based students, Gary Lam, David Petersen, WSL's ex bro in law, Phillip Bayer and others.
Intended as a mature and wc fraternal question and not intending to get the thread of course or engaging in personal argumentation.

joy chaudhuri

[Sean66]

I think we agree, Grahm. Maybe I expressed myself poorly.

I'm not talking about changing the ideas or principals of the system.
As I paraphrased, the principals remain the same, the changes are infinite. Here the taijiquan classics are referring to possible "applications" of principals in combat. There are many ways a principal can be expressed in reality.

It's like the wooden dummy form. It's there to train certain attributes dictated by the principals of the system. But it's in no way a closed set, written in stone. As long as you have understood the ideas/principals and stick to them, you can even add on to the form, or accentuate certain ideas according to your training needs. If I remember correctly, Philipp once said during a seminar that Wong showed him several variations of the dummy form over the years. Is one version more correct than another?

I don't think any of the long time students of WSL that I mentioned are using the "interpretation gimmick" to mask a lack of knowledge. I think they have all grasped the essence of the system. And yet each has their own personal "interpretation" (or maybe "expression" would be a better word?) of that system based on differences in experience, body-type, etc.

[CFT]

A while back I was reading some notes from a Wan Kam Leung seminar (I think it was posted by Nick Forrer - a real blast from the past!).

I think their are some in the WSLVT community who think that he no longer follows the WSL way. But from the notes, e.g. "new centrelines" for guidance about optimal elbow positioning, e.g. no further than X from the body (height, width depth).

Everything I read seemed to follow the WC/VT principles I'd read or practiced. To me it seemed like the prinicples were the same but just a reformulation of the teaching method.

IMO this should be allowed and encouraged. I'm pretty sure that I've read that WSL thought that there wasn't much left to "streamline" in VT, but if anyone found a way ...

[Graham H]

I think we agree, Grahm. Maybe I expressed myself poorly.

I'm not talking about changing the ideas or principals of the system.
As I paraphrased, the principals remain the same, the changes are infinite. Here the taijiquan classics are referring to possible "applications" of principals in combat. There are many ways a principal can be expressed in reality.

It's like the wooden dummy form. It's there to train certain attributes dictated by the principals of the system. But it's in no way a closed set, written in stone. As long as you have understood the ideas/principals and stick to them, you can even add on to the form, or accentuate certain ideas according to your training needs. If I remember correctly, Philipp once said during a seminar that Wong showed him several variations of the dummy form over the years. Is one version more correct than another?

I don't think any of the long time students of WSL that I mentioned are using the "interpretation gimmick" to mask a lack of knowledge. I think they have all grasped the essence of the system. And yet each has their own personal "interpretation" (or maybe "expression" would be a better word?) of that system based on differences in experience, body-type, etc.

Sean

Ok we are in agreement but what I am saying as that "some" have changed ideas and principles and filled gaps with knowledge from other systems. This is a problem!!!

What is important is the "thinking" behind the forms so order and such things do not matter. As long as one grasps the idea of VT and understands then one can become his own Teacher when experience is gained because the system is actually very simple.

I was a student of Clive Potter for 5 years before Philipp. Differences to Philipp = massive!!!. Expression???????? No f***ing way!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

Lets bury this anyway. Its old hat!!! If Clive was teaching the same system as Philipp then why would I make it difficult and travel to Germany??:rolleyes:

GH

[Graham H]

A while back I was reading some notes from a Wan Kam Leung seminar (I think it was posted by Nick Forrer - a real blast from the past!).

I think their are some in the WSLVT community who think that he no longer follows the WSL way. But from the notes, e.g. "new centrelines" for guidance about optimal elbow positioning, e.g. no further than X from the body (height, width depth).

Everything I read seemed to follow the WC/VT principles I'd read or practiced. To me it seemed like the prinicples were the same but just a reformulation of the teaching method.

IMO this should be allowed and encouraged. I'm pretty sure that I've read that WSL thought that there wasn't much left to "streamline" in VT, but if anyone found a way ...

Nick Forrer left wslvtuk for the same reasons I did.....no need to talk about it. Nick found his own way in the world but his ideas about new centerlines were BS!! There is only one centerline and the quickest way between two points is a straight line. These are the laws of the Universe and is why correct functioning Ving Tsun cannot evolve anymore. Unless human beings grow more arms and legs or gravity changes we are stuck with that with no arguments!!

The problem is always the human element which is clearly highlighted on this forum!!!

GH

[Graham H]

Interesting inputs from some people who are apparently in one of the WSL student's lineage.In the midst of the diversities- I am curious - what are some of the key wing chun principles that people think are clearly unique to WSL only and where is this core commonality in the wing chun of WSL's current HK based students, Gary Lam, David Petersen, WSL's ex bro in law, Phillip Bayer and others.
Intended as a mature and wc fraternal question and not intending to get the thread of course or engaging in personal argumentation.

joy chaudhuri

The principles are not unique to WSLVT. They are proven and scientific methods that apply to Ving Tsun as a whole. The problem is most seem to enjoy taking the scenic route!!

GH

[LoneTiger108]

What is important is the "thinking" behind the forms so order and such things do not matter. As long as one grasps the idea of VT and understands then one can become his own Teacher when experience is gained because the system is actually very simple.


The principles are not unique to WSLVT. They are proven and scientific methods that apply to Ving Tsun as a whole. The problem is most seem to enjoy taking the scenic route!!

So, please Graham, outline what makes your idea of the system correct and other WSL/WCK students incorrect?

I find it so interesting that people talk about the system and how simple it is but then we have pages and pages of dialogue and attempted explanations of why we do this or that! We are all one family of Wing Chun practitioners, so it baffles me to see that many Sifu today are simply carbon copies of their teachers and then they too add their own personality to the mix and before we know it the system has been flushed out beyond all recognition.

To give an example, I used a 'systematic' approach to coaching when I started The Yum Yeurng Academy. A relatively simple 40 point system that I could spread out over 6 months or a year depending on the students capabilities. This system was a system because it was written down and taught in a very strict way. One point, for example, was trained in 4 different ways and could take one person 2 hours to understand and another 2 weeks!

This 'system' was on one sheet of A4 paper. Written in Chinese by my Sifu for me to teach how I wanted to. This is also how Ip Man taught fmr, so WSL should have had a page or two that he was referring to all the time and this was not written in English either! Do you know anyone that actually has that info and curriculum?

Is this the kind of thing you're talking about when you say system??

[Sean66]

Yes, filling in gaps in knowledge or understanding by picking and choosing from other systems can lead to disaster, I definitely agree.

But enhancing one's understanding through exposure to, or through sparring with people from other systems (for example) can be enriching. WSL was influenced by western boxing, and he certainly learned a lot by/through his beimo matches with fighters from other styles. Of course, he used these experiences to further hone his skills within the confines of the system.

I can't comment on Mr. Potter since I've never met and trained with him. I have, however, trained with one of his Belgian students who, in my opinion, has really understood the WSL way of ving tsun and developed very good skills. For what it's worth.

You've definitely found an incredible teacher in Philipp. Worth the trip to Germany, for sure. Hast du auch ein bisschen Deutsch dazu gelernt?

[CFT]

Hast du auch ein bisschen Deutsch dazu gelernt?Quite possibly, or just use the traditional British method: SPEAK LOUDER :D

[Vajramusti]

The principles are not unique to WSLVT. They are proven and scientific methods that apply to Ving Tsun as a whole. The problem is most seem to enjoy taking the scenic route!!

GH
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure- Just don't have to be in Bayer's line or WSL's line to understand wing chun quite well
and without an imprimatur from frequent posters on this list IMO.

Joy Cjaudjuri

[Phil Redmond]

I think we agree, Grahm. Maybe I expressed myself poorly.

I'm not talking about changing the ideas or principals of the system.
As I paraphrased, the principals remain the same, the changes are infinite. Here the taijiquan classics are referring to possible "applications" of principals in combat. There are many ways a principal can be expressed in reality.

It's like the wooden dummy form. It's there to train certain attributes dictated by the principals of the system. But it's in no way a closed set, written in stone. As long as you have understood the ideas/principals and stick to them, you can even add on to the form, or accentuate certain ideas according to your training needs. If I remember correctly, Philipp once said during a seminar that Wong showed him several variations of the dummy form over the years. Is one version more correct than another?

I don't think any of the long time students of WSL that I mentioned are using the "interpretation gimmick" to mask a lack of knowledge. I think they have all grasped the essence of the system. And yet each has their own personal "interpretation" (or maybe "expression" would be a better word?) of that system based on differences in experience, body-type, etc.
I agreed with your previous post as well as this one.

[Phil Redmond]

With regards to Wing Chun can anyone say they have the "real deal" and everyone else is wrong? I don't think so. None of our Sifus nor their Sifus were around during the development of WC. We get what was passed down to us just like our teachers did. Some treat that information as Gospel. I don't.

[sihing]

With regards to Wing Chun can anyone say they have the "real deal" and everyone else is wrong? I don't think so. None of our Sifus nor their Sifus were around during the development of WC. We get what was passed down to us just like our teachers did. Some treat that information as Gospel. I don't.

I don't think anyone can come down on another in a absolute sense and diss their VT. What one can do is say what is good and not so good in their own opinion.

For e.g. a ton of VT/WC schools teach tan da as a realistic way to defend a round or hook punch? Of course anything can work, but the % of tan da working in the street is very very low, so to teach this regularly as a viable way to defend one's self is bad teaching in my book. I'd rather teach them to eat their opponents space, hit hard and often and take out their balance and structure at the sametime, as this teaches aggression and taking their game to their opponent instead of waiting to much.

I also don't believe WC/VT was created as a complete form, or like it is today. It's evolved over the generations, with particular individuals in each generation serving the role of innovator and role model, making the teaching better by research & development of what the material at that time had to offer, and what can make it better (not changing the principles/concepts of the system, but rather how and what is trained). WSL did this frequently throughout his career from what I understand, and is part of what is different about this line of VT as compared to others. One should learn something, look at it closely and if possible see if there's room for improvement. Each generation has that responsibility, otherwise the art will die or get worse for the next gen, as can be seen today in our WC world.
James

[LoneTiger108]

With regards to Wing Chun can anyone say they have the "real deal" and everyone else is wrong? I don't think so. None of our Sifus nor their Sifus were around during the development of WC. We get what was passed down to us just like our teachers did. Some treat that information as Gospel. I don't.

That's a good point. I don't think anyone can lay claim to the "real deal" either. But FWIW if we talk of Wing Chun being a system we should be able to express what that means to us.

Chisau is a great example of a practise that defines the Wing Chun system today, but is it over promoted? Over used by tricksters? Or just a simple way to preserve previous Masters sansau techniques!?

Self exploration should be a goal of every martial artist imo and fme it was Wing Chun that held the keys to such self expression for me. But that was learnt through understanding the system itself. A rigid structure and method came alive when it had all settled down and digested as a whole. ;)

[Vajramusti]

You've definitely found an incredible teacher in Philipp. Worth the trip to Germany, for sure. Hast du auch ein bisschen Deutsch dazu gelernt?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ha? nein! Okhane shikte jabo kano? Ekhane jothesto shikechi, porachhi ar shikchi.

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

. . .For e.g. a ton of VT/WC schools teach tan da as a realistic way to defend a round or hook punch? Of course anything can work, but the % of tan da working in the street is very very low, so to teach this regularly as a viable way to defend one's self is bad teaching in my book. . . . .James
Though the Tan Da is seen in many branches of WC I totally agree with you. I guess it's taught to teach begginners to use both hands at one time. I'm not saying that it wouldn't work but you'd have to have a serious Tan to stop a poweful round punch.

[Vajramusti]

The story of WSL being advised to use the gaan must be the direct and individualized advice for his problem in a fight... not neccesarily an issue of IM's slt. IM fiddled with things at times but the gaan was there in Lun Gai's time and definitely there when he taught my sigung who had a long sustained private learning relationship with IM outside of public classes.

joy chaudhuri(sorry- I have done keyboard errors sometimes even with my own name!!!))

[Vajramusti]

Interesting inputs from some people who are apparently in one of the WSL student's lineages.In the midst of the diversities- I am curious - what are some of the key wing chun principles that people think are clearly unique to WSL only and where is this core commonality in the wing chun of WSL's current HK based students, Gary Lam, David Petersen, Barry Lee, Phillip Bayer and others.
Intended as a mature and wc fraternal question and not intending to get the thread of course or engaging in personal argumentation.

joy chaudhuri
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Without getting advice about going to Germany- I wouldn't mind getting some clear not too verbose answers to the above question, and hopefully without claiming a monopoly on the mantle of "science". No one answered. Thank you.

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ha? nein! Okhane shikte jabo kano? Ekhane jothesto shikechi, porachhi ar shikchi.

joy chaudhuri
What 1st Nation tribe is that from?

[Vajramusti]

What 1st Nation tribe is that from?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not first nation that time. It's Bengali which is spoken by more people than those who speak German.

But- as you must know I was just ribbing on slipping into German in the thread..

joy

[Vajramusti]

Though the Tan Da is seen in many branches of WC I totally agree with you. I guess it's taught to teach begginners to use both hands at one time. I'm not saying that it wouldn't work but you'd have to have a serious Tan to stop a poweful round punch.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
True. Tan da is a drill among a many others to train the coordination of two hands and to control the lines involved.
No two punches are exactly the same- whether they be straights, hooks, upper, overhead etc..
so training different kinds of timing is important so that the reaction is spontaneous... again highlighting the importance of different kinds of chi sao.

joy chaudhuri

[couch]

The story of WSL being advised to use the gaan must be the direct and individualized advice for his problem in a fight... not neccesarily an issue of IM's slt. IM fiddled with things at times but the gaan was there in Lun Gai's time and definitely there when he taught my sigung who had a long sustained private learning relationship with IM outside of public classes.

joy chaudhuri(sorry- I have done keyboard errors sometimes even with my own name!!!))

I do, however, see why the Gaan Sau was perhaps not in the 'original' SNT. It chases hands instead of attacking - so it makes sense that we wouldn't see it until later on (like Biu Jee).

[Vajramusti]

I do, however, see why the Gaan Sau was perhaps not in the 'original' SNT. It chases hands instead of attacking - so it makes sense that we wouldn't see it until later on (like Biu Jee).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think Gaan when done right chases hands any more than other motions.

joy

[sihing]

Though the Tan Da is seen in many branches of WC I totally agree with you. I guess it's taught to teach begginners to use both hands at one time. I'm not saying that it wouldn't work but you'd have to have a serious Tan to stop a poweful round punch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-upAD5F85Kc , then why are you teaching it here???

The problem I see in this vid is a massive amount of chasing hands, your point of contact (center) is facing away from your opponent, so now you've lost facing which is critcal in good WC application.

Luk sau rolling in chi sau teaches two live arm actions. In WC both arms are live, the power is always 50/50 in both sides, just one side is usually ahead of the other, as there is a cycling and recycling of striking happening. I don't teach wrong things like tan da vs round punch to teach that apsect.

James

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-upAD5F85Kc , then why are you teaching it here???

The problem I see in this vid is a massive amount of chasing hands, your point of contact (center) is facing away from your opponent, so now you've lost facing which is critcal in good WC application.

Luk sau rolling in chi sau teaches two live arm actions. In WC both arms are live, the power is always 50/50 in both sides, just one side is usually ahead of the other, as there is a cycling and recycling of striking happening. I don't teach wrong things like tan da vs round punch to teach that apsect.

James
Because it's part of the curriculum for beginners like I said. Also, I never teach to chase hands. What you might think is chasing hands isn't.
Is :51 here chasing hands?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ckHE4X8yUk

Tan Da 6:24 - 6:34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIGXaNdmHBQ&feature=related


No, it's not.

[sihing]

Because it's part of the curriculum for beginners like I said. Also, I never teach to chase hands. What you might think is chasing hands isn't.
Is :51 here chasing hands?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ckHE4X8yUk

Tan Da 6:24 - 6:34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIGXaNdmHBQ&feature=related


No, it's not.

Then what's your definition of chasing hands, I'm super curious now, cause if your vid didn't show it like I said, I'd like to know what is.

Also, why teach beginners something you do not believe in, doesn't make sense???

SOIF is not a good rep of WSLVT, he even said that himself:)

James

[Phil Redmond]

Then what's your definition of chasing hands, I'm super curious now, cause if your vid didn't show it like I said, I'd like to know what is.

Also, why teach beginners something you do not believe in, doesn't make sense???

SOIF is not a good rep of WSLVT, he even said that himself:)

James
You learn scales to play a melody. You learn an alphabet to create words. You don't fight with SLT but people teach it.
Also regarding using the wrist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHeSDTJ8Fpc

[Phil Redmond]

Then what's your definition of chasing hands, I'm super curious now, cause if your vid didn't show it like I said, I'd like to know what is.

Also, why teach beginners something you do not believe in, doesn't make sense???

SOIF is not a good rep of WSLVT, he even said that himself:)

James
And why make a video of something that isn't representative of something that doesn't represent what you teach.
Let me leave this alone. You win. OK?

[bennyvt]

i think it is down to listening to the literal word. I have meet and learnt off various WSL guys and they all say the same basic things. SOme can explain it better, some can show you. Each had learnt at a different time or sometimes the same and they all say that WSL changed and taught the forms differently. Mainly the dummy. If you look at it with an open mind you can see the progression of how he taught people.
I have also seen and meet a few example that graham talks about. But it doesn't mean that if something is said in a different way it doesn't have merit.
I teaching you tell people different things depending on several factors. More body cues. Not how you would technically do it in a biomechanical sense but how it should feel or a certain thing to get the student to do what you want.
Example, one tai chi guy I taught I had to get him to tighten up and use heaps of force. A body building guy T taught had to relax and use no force. If either one doesn't understand that it is a body cue they will teach everyone exactly what they were told. Not how to do it.
Joy, Barry was the brother in law you metioned.:p

[Vajramusti]

i think it is down to listening to the literal word. I have meet and learnt off various WSL guys and they all say the same basic things. SOme can explain it better, some can show you. Each had learnt at a different time or sometimes the same and they all say that WSL changed and taught the forms differently. Mainly the dummy. If you look at it with an open mind you can see the progression of how he taught people.
I have also seen and meet a few example that graham talks about. But it doesn't mean that if something is said in a different way it doesn't have merit.
I teaching you tell people different things depending on several factors. More body cues. Not how you would technically do it in a biomechanical sense but how it should feel or a certain thing to get the student to do what you want.
Example, one tai chi guy I taught I had to get him to tighten up and use heaps of force. A body building guy T taught had to relax and use no force. If either one doesn't understand that it is a body cue they will teach everyone exactly what they were told. Not how to do it.
Joy, Barry was the brother in law you metioned.:p
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Benny- on Barry-the machine- I know..I couldn't think of his name when I was hitting the keys.

BTW I understand WSL changing things and also adjusting his teaching for the student.Good teachers do that.And. they evolve themselves.I have nothing but respect for WSL but some later generation students do him an injustice by giving the impression that he only understood Ip Man's wing chun or more tiresome-ly that one has to go to Germany now to understand true wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

Though the Tan Da is seen in many branches of WC I totally agree with you. I guess it's taught to teach begginners to use both hands at one time. I'm not saying that it wouldn't work but you'd have to have a serious Tan to stop a poweful round punch.

As it was explained to me, tan 'da' turning facing 'drill'....is to face doing tan and a jum punch, tan being the retraction and reloading of the previous jum punch ....tan isnt a block laterally off the line, but it has been shown to move forwards as the person moves sideways

We also show the tan just facing forwards, as the other arm punches out the tan is the recovery back to elbow in...not a block

tan and jum not tan da the tan is the opposite jum [having turned 45 to face] returning back to elbow in 'tan' ...its actually a simple facing drill for solo work. not to stand in the middle of the guys arms turning to block etc...:D we all know that result, I have a fractured nose from it ;) some learn the hard way :D needless to say I dont like that thinking.

[k gledhill]

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I don't think Gaan when done right chases hands any more than other motions.

joy

Gaun wrist is on the line....if it stays on the line when we
face (we only turn to face) it wont over swing and 'chase'.
hit gaun hit, SLT cycle, when you do tan make a fist....

[LSWCTN1]

There is only one centerline and the quickest way between two points is a straight line. GH

so why dont we strike in that wasy all of the time then?

[k gledhill]

We do...except bil geet

[LoneTiger108]

Sheesh! This thread is just a load of noise :confused:

[sihing]

You learn scales to play a melody. You learn an alphabet to create words. You don't fight with SLT but people teach it.
Also regarding using the wrist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHeSDTJ8Fpc

SNT is not a fighting form, none of them really are, maybe BJ. SNT teaches the basic mechanics and structures.***Mechanics are the way we move, how we perform or move with a tan, fok or bong sau (do you lead it with the wrist or elbow?). ****Structure is the stability in our base, how the body is connected to allow us to deliver and receive force, if you have no base you have no Kung Fu. Very basic and static training, it allows one to individually correct basic movement. If for e.g. in dan chi sau training your fok sau elbow keeps coming out, you fix it in SNT practice, focus on it and then it will correct it's behavior in chi sau. That's it, SNT is not fighting nor does it teach application.

Now regarding using wrists in your vid, here your talking about your opponents wrists, and yes this may be the case as you may have to progress from wrist to elbow control. This in not what we're really talking about though. In our line we function everything thru our elbows, when I punch you, the intention and power of it are in the elbow, hard to explain here (Kev G has a million X, people still don't get it), easy to show someone in person, once you feel it you will know. Met up with Kevin G Phil, if you are as open minded as you say do this one thing, your perpective may change:)

James

p.s. Still don't understand why you teach Tan Da when you said it's a low percentage move??

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . .I have nothing but respect for WSL but some later generation students do him an injustice by giving the impression that he only understood Ip Man's wing chun or more tiresome-ly that one has to go to Germany now to understand true wing chun.

joy chaudhuri
I also have the utmost respect for Si-Bak Wong and I feel that "some" WSL people here are implying that they have the Holy Grail and the rest of us are lost.

[sihing]

I respect everyone here, I respect you Phil, because you have a good heart, you have passion for what you do, you care about what you do, and you are a good teacher for what you teach. What I don't have to respect is the material (and I think I have a right to say that, since I practiced TWC for 18yrs). That's the difference. It's not a personal thing. All of us here think that what we are doing the very good quality stuff, can all of us be right?? Again, can all interpretations/representations of WC be correct?? I personally don't think so, and even if I think that, it doesn't mean I have hatred or dislike for those that practice such methods.

James

p.s. it appears I'm not the only one, all one has to do is go to that anti CLF thread and read..

[Phil Redmond]

I respect everyone here, I respect you Phil, because you have a good heart, you have passion for what you do, you care about what you do, and you are a good teacher for what you teach. . . . . .
Thanks it's good to hear that. I've found that most WC people are nice when you meet face to face. I hope to meet Kevin soon as well. I owe him since he got me the space I'm teaching in now:)

[k gledhill]

Only you can decide, no amount of text can reveal it.

[Graham H]

so why dont we strike in that wasy all of the time then?

I do......thank you please!!!! :p

[Graham H]

I also have the utmost respect for Si-Bak Wong and I feel that "some" WSL people here are implying that they have the Holy Grail and the rest of us are lost.

You are!!!! :D

[LoneTiger108]

I hear everyone putting their points across and can see that we all have different ideas as to what (we all seem to call) chisau is, but are we really all talking of the same exercise?

Can someone explain the differences between poon/look/chi sau to start with? Or are we putting everything into that famous 'chisau' melting pot? Personally, if you do not differentiate and understand the strengths and weaknesses of each practise, you're really doing no more than 'playing', and I don't like to play with interactive training.

It needs precise and simple perspective and purpose imho and it seems that some schools have preference of one method over the other.

[Graham H]

I hear everyone putting their points across and can see that we all have different ideas as to what (we all seem to call) chisau is, but are we really all talking of the same exercise?

Can someone explain the differences between poon/look/chi sau to start with? Or are we putting everything into that famous 'chisau' melting pot? Personally, if you do not differentiate and understand the strengths and weaknesses of each practise, you're really doing no more than 'playing', and I don't like to play with interactive training.

It needs precise and simple perspective and purpose imho and it seems that some schools have preference of one method over the other.

Poon Sau is the rolling arms exercise that is used to exchange force and create structure by using your training partner. Chi Sau is the all over using of force process. We don't have "look" sau. :confused:

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1082796]I hear everyone putting their points across and can see that we all have different ideas as to what (we all seem to call) chisau is, but are we really all talking of the same exercise?

-------------------------------------------------------------
The devil is in the details!

[LoneTiger108]

The devil is in the details!

I agree 100% Joy but it seems there are no Devils here... :(

[CFT]

"Look"/"Luk" (碌) means rolling too. Anyone care to articulate what hand sequences are used in their chi sau/poon sau/luk sau and how the practice is beneficial to their WCK?

[k gledhill]

In poon / lok soa we can use 2 tans ie bong to tan each
arm, while partner does 2 jum/foks, just to introduce
the actions, energy, with less confusion. But doing chi-sao we only do tan / jum each arm.
you wont attack with 2 tans together, or 2 jums.....but for drilling....

Tans protect the outside lines, jums protect
inside lines......if one follows the other either
side you create an unbroken, seamless line defense
attack.. ..this why we just face and keep arms on the
centerline...only the energy/alignment changes
but nobody sees this.....

[CFT]

Any opinions (or facts) about which is superior, in the fuk-on-tan position? I was told fuk was superior because it was "on top", always pressing on tan. But I'm not convinced by that any more, especially since I am shorter than most practice partners. But these days I don't think fuk is a "pressing down on" action anyway.

[Sean66]

Chi sao is one of the central training methods of WCK ; the heart of the system, one might say. However, there seem to be as many misconceptions as there are interpretations of this exercise. This might be due to the term itself. We translate chi sao as « sticky hands » or « rolling hands » and although this may be linguistically correct, the focus of the practice itself has little to do with sticking to and following the movements of the arms or with rolling the arms around.

Important during chi sao practice (in my mind) is the constant forward pressure toward the center of my partner. This is a force generated by the whole body structure (already established in SNT), transferred through the pelvis/hips and directed through correct elbow position, i.e. elbow in and centered. As my training partner is doing the same thing, we both further reinforce/train our structure, the proper direction of our force (toward the center of the other) and our ability to instinctivly hit the other (lat sau jik chung, if you want to call it that).

Take the position of tan sau against fook sau, for example. The direction of force for each position is the same: toward the center of the partner. They both train the same fundamental ability: that of delivering a punch that counts. Tan sau being a punch where the outside of one’s arm has contact with that of the partner’s, and fook sau (also the idea of jum sao) a punch where the contact is with the inside of one’s own arm. The focus is not in maintaining arm contact, but in drilling the elbow forward toward the center of mass of the partner.

Even in the transition or “rolling” phase, the forward intent still has to be there. In the transition between tan sau and bong sau, my first intention is to keep drilling forward with the elbow. Simultaneously, my partner is doing the same thing in the transition from low fook sau to high fook sau: drilling his/her elbow forward. If this intent and direction of force from the elbow isn’t there, I have no reason to do bong sao. I’ll just keep drilling forward to “hit” him.

In the transition from bong sao back to tan sau it’s the same. There has to be forward intention (I think Phil also talked about this in one of his clips) or a gap will be left for my partner to enter.

In summary, with correct alignment (square on, hips engaged, etc.) and positioning of the elbows, chi sao practice can enable both partners to develop qualities that we need in using WCK for fighting:

-Orientation: staying square-on in relation to the opponent, thus able to use all one’s “weapons”
-Coordination: attacking and defending/controlling simultaneously
-Structure: the transfer of energy with the entire mass of the body and the ability to deliver a decisive blow in a short distance
-Distance: a feeling for the correct distance in which we can deliver a blow and in which our opponent can also hit/ control us
-Timing: recognizing opportunities, feeling the moment to move in either attack or defense
-Footwork: advancing footwork (seung ma) and side-stepping/defensive footwork (tui ma) and how to use them to control the opponent and reduce their chances for counter-attacking or defending while heightening our own chances of doing the same.

Sorry if this isn't so coherent. It's rather off the top of my head. Hard to explain these things in words, but it's important to give it a try!

Cheers,
Sean

[Graham H]

Any opinions (or facts) about which is superior, in the fuk-on-tan position? I was told fuk was superior because it was "on top", always pressing on tan. But I'm not convinced by that any more, especially since I am shorter than most practice partners. But these days I don't think fuk is a "pressing down on" action anyway.

Ha Ha! That reminds me of the BS one of my old Teachers used to say. LOL.

Neither Tan Sau or Fook Sau are superior. They are both as important as each other for developing specific VT punching behaviour!!!

Fook Sau is NOT a pressing down action! Its a punching action

GH

[sihing]

Any opinions (or facts) about which is superior, in the fuk-on-tan position? I was told fuk was superior because it was "on top", always pressing on tan. But I'm not convinced by that any more, especially since I am shorter than most practice partners. But these days I don't think fuk is a "pressing down on" action anyway.

IMO tan is the superior structure, since it is coming underneather and has more leg power attached to it. Think of grabbing someone by their jacket lapel, very powerful grab and you can control them easily since you are under their COG. Most use their shoulder for fok sau, so they can't match the power of a leg driven tan, unless they time it right and catch the tan early, shutting it down by keeping the fok/jum elbow in front of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWX2qsP3lOo , an example of tan stepping excersise. The fok guy is learning how to handle the tan force coming into him. The tan guy is learning how to push thru with his knee/hip/elbow connection, very powerful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvQmC_gndMY , same guy practicing some under laap from poon sau.

Kevin was right on with his last post:)

James

[Phil Redmond]

Chi sao is one of the central training methods of WCK ; the heart of the system, one might say. However, there seem to be as many misconceptions as there are interpretations of this exercise. This might be due to the term itself. We translate chi sao as « sticky hands » or « rolling hands » and although this may be linguistically correct, the focus of the practice itself has little to do with sticking to and following the movements of the arms or with rolling the arms around.

Important during chi sao practice (in my mind) is the constant forward pressure toward the center of my partner. This is a force generated by the whole body structure (already established in SNT), transferred through the pelvis/hips and directed through correct elbow position, i.e. elbow in and centered. As my training partner is doing the same thing, we both further reinforce/train our structure, the proper direction of our force (toward the center of the other) and our ability to instinctivly hit the other (lat sau jik chung, if you want to call it that).

Take the position of tan sau against fook sau, for example. The direction of force for each position is the same: toward the center of the partner. They both train the same fundamental ability: that of delivering a punch that counts. Tan sau being a punch where the outside of one’s arm has contact with that of the partner’s, and fook sau (also the idea of jum sao) a punch where the contact is with the inside of one’s own arm. The focus is not in maintaining arm contact, but in drilling the elbow forward toward the center of mass of the partner.

Even in the transition or “rolling” phase, the forward intent still has to be there. In the transition between tan sau and bong sau, my first intention is to keep drilling forward with the elbow. Simultaneously, my partner is doing the same thing in the transition from low fook sau to high fook sau: drilling his/her elbow forward. If this intent and direction of force from the elbow isn’t there, I have no reason to do bong sao. I’ll just keep drilling forward to “hit” him.

In the transition from bong sao back to tan sau it’s the same. There has to be forward intention (I think Phil also talked about this in one of his clips) or a gap will be left for my partner to enter.

In summary, with correct alignment (square on, hips engaged, etc.) and positioning of the elbows, chi sao practice can enable both partners to develop qualities that we need in using WCK for fighting:

-Orientation: staying square-on in relation to the opponent, thus able to use all one’s “weapons”
-Coordination: attacking and defending/controlling simultaneously
-Structure: the transfer of energy with the entire mass of the body and the ability to deliver a decisive blow in a short distance
-Distance: a feeling for the correct distance in which we can deliver a blow and in which our opponent can also hit/ control us
-Timing: recognizing opportunities, feeling the moment to move in either attack or defense
-Footwork: advancing footwork (seung ma) and side-stepping/defensive footwork (tui ma) and how to use them to control the opponent and reduce their chances for counter-attacking or defending while heightening our own chances of doing the same.

Sorry if this isn't so coherent. It's rather off the top of my head. Hard to explain these things in words, but it's important to give it a try!

Cheers,
Sean
Nice explanation. I believe that this covers what all WC people should be striving for.
No worries, your English is right on. Where in France are you? I've had people email me regarding WC there. I'd definitely recommend your school.

[Sean66]

Thanks Phil, I appreciate it.
I live in Lille, which is just an hour north or Paris and an hour south of London.
Moved here 3 years ago after living almost 15 years in Germany.
But actually I'm American. Grew up in Albuquerque, NM. So I hope I haven't lost all my English skillz LOL !!

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks Phil, I appreciate it.
I live in Lille, which is just an hour north or Paris and an hour south of London.
Moved here 3 years ago after living almost 15 years in Germany.
But actually I'm American. Grew up in Albuquerque, NM. So I hope I haven't lost all my English skillz LOL !!
Duh!!! :) No wonder your English was so good. I presumed you were French..

[bennyvt]

with the wrist or elbow. I think its when one is done too much that the problem is. too much wrist means you dont control with the elbow enough. But you still need to use power at the wrist joint to be able to aim your elbow where you want it to go.

[Vajramusti]

with the wrist or elbow. I think its when one is done too much that the problem is. too much wrist means you dont control with the elbow enough. But you still need to use power at the wrist joint to be able to aim your elbow where you want it to go.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yup. balance!

[Sean66]

I imagine aiming/steering with the elbows. That way the wrists stay relaxed and ready to do what they need to according to the situation, i.e. punch, palm strike, lop sau, etc.

It's sort of like a tool. We direct the force by wielding the handle. What's on the end of the handle depends on the task: sometimes we need a hammer, sometimes a screwdriver. We remain flexible.

Also, directing the body's force with the elbows builds a stronger connection to the center. And that's really what it's all about. Attacking and controlling the opponent while remaining centered and mobile.

[sihing]

The problem is lots of people think Wing Chun is meant to fight just Wing Chun, that is not the case. One needs the perfect counter pressure (e.g. tan vs fok) to develop the skill set, that is why I look at VT as a training system (not a fighting style), it's meant to correct our mistakes, develop some skills, and gain us some understanding. To apply the skills (which is outside the training system), one spars to test it, to see where the weakness and strengths are, then go back to the system to correct, up until you are satisfied.

That's how I understand it.

James

P.S. Good posts Sean:)

[k gledhill]

Thats why we train with " lines of force" on a broader tactical
level.

[sihing]

Thats why we train with " lines of force" on a broader tactical
level.

You mean you don't use tan sau & wu sau to block punches, and static postures to fight with, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhOYWKpX0b8 ,,,Revolutionary:rolleyes::rolleyes:

He's got a really cool uniform though:D

J

[Vajramusti]

You mean you don't use tan sau & wu sau to block punches, and static postures to fight with, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhOYWKpX0b8 ,,,Revolutionary:rolleyes::rolleyes:

He's got a really cool uniform though:D

J
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who is that guy?

[k gledhill]

You mean you don't use tan sau & wu sau to block punches, and static postures to fight with, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhOYWKpX0b8 ,,,Revolutionary:rolleyes::rolleyes:

He's got a really cool uniform though:D

J

not like that :D funny! the sequences guys come up with while the guy trying to hit them cant even reach ;)

[sihing]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who is that guy?

Todd Shawn Tei. He probably has a huge following of sheep:)

J

[Vajramusti]

Todd Shawn Tei. He probably has a huge following of sheep:)

J
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amazing what all passes for wing chun.
We don't need trolls and outsiders to do us in.
So many people calling themselves wing chunners do a good job on that score without additional help.

joy chaudhuri

[Grumblegeezer]

Todd Shawn Tei. He probably has a huge following of sheep:)

I assume you are speaking figuratively. Even sheep aren't that dumb.

BTW why does he use the spelling "Wing Tsun". His stuff is nothing like any of the WT groups. Also interesting how that drill is 1. entirely defensive, 2. has the hands moving laterally side to side across centerline, and 3. is entirely useless... a rote sequence that trains bad habits, IMO.

Oh, and the fancy uniform... you can have it. I have a sorta fancy uniform too. It's in my closet somewhere. I'd rather train in sweats.

[Vajramusti]

Thats why we train with " lines of force" on a broader tactical
level.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yup. Understanding open and closed lines helps with whatever is coming down the pike.Does not have to be a WC opponent.

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

Some links for Chi Sao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsOhNH9Rg4A&feature=channel_video_title

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVgO5S8Zm_Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YsawCZ-MaA

[Phil Redmond]

Some Chi Sao insights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjssQFcNIpY

[Graham H]

Phil

I am interested as you idea of Chi Sau is completely different to mine. For a start Poon Sau teaches you to NOT use the wrist but more the elbow. When I roll my wrists are not in contact with my training partners arms as yours clearly are. By having you wrist connected to the other guys wrist you are increasing the problem that, in my system, we are trying to correct. Fook Sau is NOT about controlling the other guys arms but rather about how we control our punching behaviour as the movement of the punch by bringing the elbow to the center is not a natural movement for humans to make. This is the reason we do these actions slow in SLT. Much like in yoga where we gently push our limbs in order to stretch and adopt new movements.........so we can punch correctly. What is your reason for the first part of SLT.

If you look at what you are doing with Fook Sau and Tan Sau in Poon Sau we are developing and improving the correct punching behaviour for the system and not how to control peoples arms as you show in that video. I also used to think Chi Sau was for learning these things but I clearly know now that they are not.

Tan Sau is a punching concept. Fook Sau is a punching concept. Poon Sau is used to train the punch, develop the correct structure for the punch and create balance in both punching arms. Chi Sau encapsulates many different drills and training methods and teaches how to best use our tools based on scientific ideas.

Can you give me your opinion??? It will make for better reading than when the Wing Chun Police jump all over my posts. Nee Nar, Nee Nar, Nee Nar!!! :D

GH

[Phil Redmond]

Phil

I am interested as you idea of Chi Sau is completely different to mine. For a start Poon Sau teaches you to NOT use the wrist but more the elbow. When I roll my wrists are not in contact with my training partners arms as yours clearly are. By having you wrist connected to the other guys wrist you are increasing the problem that, in my system, we are trying to correct. Fook Sau is NOT about controlling the other guys arms but rather about how we control our punching behaviour as the movement of the punch by bringing the elbow to the center is not a natural movement for humans to make. This is the reason we do these actions slow in SLT. Much like in yoga where we gently push our limbs in order to stretch and adopt new movements.........so we can punch correctly. What is your reason for the first part of SLT.

If you look at what you are doing with Fook Sau and Tan Sau in Poon Sau we are developing and improving the correct punching behaviour for the system and not how to control peoples arms as you show in that video. I also used to think Chi Sau was for learning these things but I clearly know now that they are not.

Tan Sau is a punching concept. Fook Sau is a punching concept. Poon Sau is used to train the punch, develop the correct structure for the punch and create balance in both punching arms. Chi Sau encapsulates many different drills and training methods and teaches how to best use our tools based on scientific ideas.

Can you give me your opinion??? It will make for better reading than when the Wing Chun Police jump all over my posts. Nee Nar, Nee Nar, Nee Nar!!! :D

GH
In Cantonese Fuhk/Fook Sau means controlling hand. That's what we do. So we definitely differ on that and it's all good my WC brother. :)

[Graham H]

In Cantonese Fuhk/Fook Sau means controlling hand. That's what we do. So we definitely differ on that and it's all good my WC brother. :)

I have heard that but I have also heard other meanings. They seem to fit in with whoever is doing the interpretation. The "sau" on the end is just a kung fu term. Ok "sau" can mean hand but Fook Sau doesn't mean to control a hand or arm IMO. I have been warned in the past about trying to translate the actions in Kung Fu into literal western translations. Lets take Bong Sau......most people translate Bong Sau as wing arm..... not hand. There are other translations but I translate Bong as being the part of the arm from the shoulder to the elbow which we rotate in order to perform Bong Sau. Jum Sau is generally translated as sinking hand but to me jum sau is a punch derived form the fook sau concept and teaches one to sink the elbow into the center whilst punching so we can open the way for the punch.......punch....and defend our own center in one action. This action is performed many times on the Jong.

I don't get involved too much in translations from East to West since I spoke to certain people in Hong Kong and also what came form conversations between WSL and my instructor. Teaching the concepts of how and why can only be done in person and thats what makes this forum such a dodgy idea because we can't share through physical interaction.

GH

[Phil Redmond]

I have heard that but I have also heard other meanings. They seem to fit in with whoever is doing the interpretation. The "sau" on the end is just a kung fu term. Ok "sau" can mean hand but Fook Sau doesn't mean to control a hand or arm IMO. I have been warned in the past about trying to translate the actions in Kung Fu into literal western translations. Lets take Bong Sau......most people translate Bong Sau as wing arm..... not hand. There are other translations but I translate Bong as being the part of the arm from the shoulder to the elbow which we rotate in order to perform Bong Sau. Jum Sau is generally translated as sinking hand but to me jum sau is a punch derived form the fook sau concept and teaches one to sink the elbow into the center whilst punching so we can open the way for the punch.......punch....and defend our own center in one action. This action is performed many times on the Jong.

I don't get involved too much in translations from East to West since I spoke to certain people in Hong Kong and also what came form conversations between WSL and my instructor. Teaching the concepts of how and why can only be done in person and thats what makes this forum such a dodgy idea because we can't share through physical interaction.

GH

I speak Cantonese. Fook, means, control, subdue. Look it up online or show the Chinese character to a native Cantonese speaker. They will say the same thing.

[Graham H]

I speak Cantonese. Fook, means, control, subdue. Look it up online or show the Chinese character to a native Cantonese speaker. They will say the same thing.

I have Phill......I know many people that speak Cantonese. I learnt myself for a while and my Teacher who was from Hong Kong (may she rest in peace) never heard of most of the Ving Tsun terminology. Maybe you are misinterpreting what the "controlling" bit actually is controlling......does it matter anyway???? The differences between my lineage and yours are massive. Generic Wing Chun as it is today.

GH

[duende]

Jum Sau is generally translated as sinking hand but to me jum sau is a punch derived form the fook sau concept and teaches one to sink the elbow into the center whilst punching so we can open the way for the punch.......punch....and defend our own center in one action. This action is performed many times on the Jong.



Sure...

This is one technical application of the tool. The trick here is to not let techniques quantify or limited the understanding of what the concept really is.

Instead, consider the concept of controlling bridging hand. And try to understand the full body mechanics involved and how it's structural integrity and strengths lay in certain timings and angles.

That way numerous "techniques" can be found that both utilize and prove the concept in question.

IMO... WC's tools are based on concepts and principles. In this way, we learn how to "fish" for ourselves and therefore gain the ability to apply WC's tools outside of fixed drills and pre-determined combat scenarios.

[wtxs]

I have Phill......I know many people that speak Cantonese. I learnt myself for a while and my Teacher who was from Hong Kong (may she rest in peace) never heard of most of the Ving Tsun terminology. Maybe you are misinterpreting what the "controlling" bit actually is controlling......does it matter anyway???? The differences between my lineage and yours are massive. Generic Wing Chun as it is today.

GH

To know the true meaning of WC terms, we'll have to go back a few centuries.

Martial art terminology are exclusive to the people of the arts, it's a wonder you teacher had never of them ... for what it's worth, depending on how it's used, the term sao/sau can be loosely apply to mean hand or the whole arm

[Phil Redmond]

I have Phill......I know many people that speak Cantonese. I learnt myself for a while and my Teacher who was from Hong Kong (may she rest in peace) never heard of most of the Ving Tsun terminology. Maybe you are misinterpreting what the "controlling" bit actually is controlling......does it matter anyway???? The differences between my lineage and yours are massive. Generic Wing Chun as it is today.

GH
Do we at least agree that fuhk means control?
Also I never post that someone is doing their WC wrong. I simply say this is how I do it and why. ;)

[Phil Redmond]

I have Phill......I know many people that speak Cantonese. I learnt myself for a while and my Teacher who was from Hong Kong (may she rest in peace) never heard of most of the Ving Tsun terminology. Maybe you are misinterpreting what the "controlling" bit actually is controlling......does it matter anyway???? The differences between my lineage and yours are massive. Generic Wing Chun as it is today.

GH

Youtube allows one to upload videos that only your youtube friends can see. But it only allows up to 50 friends. We have more than 50 people in our Association world wide. My primary reason for uploading clips is so that TWC people can view them. If others view them it's cool. Though I respect other people's opinions I don't really care what they think of our WC. I only post some of the fighting we do online. There is lots more. Our guys have been successfully testing their WC in various full contact venues. If it doesn't work we don't train it. It's that simple. You're going to do what you do and I'm going to do what I do. Happy training my friend.

[Phil Redmond]

To know the true meaning of WC terms, we'll have to go back a few centuries.

Martial art terminology are exclusive to the people of the arts, it's a wonder you teacher had never of them ... for what it's worth, depending on how it's used, the term sao/sau can be loosely apply to mean hand or the whole arm
Good point. Sau can mean both.

[zuti car]

Our guys have been successfully testing their WC in various full contact venues. If it doesn't work we don't train it. It's that simple. .

A lot of TWC people from my country (we have only TWC here :) ) successfully testing their skill all the time .And some of us tested our skill in a real combat situations .TWC works no mater what people say . I allways say to my students , if you want to know how to fight then you need to fight , there is no other way to learn how to fight besides acctual fighting.

[Phil Redmond]

Good point. Side note, related to your comment: we often hear the term "Zhang/Chang" (Bagua Zhang, Pakua Chang), meaning "palm." While this seems fairly straightforward, as wtxs points out, it often depends on how it's used: the interpretation I was taught was "Zhang means palm, but in this case the "palm" in question is the whole inside of the forearm from the elbow to the tips of the fingers."

How we interpret different concepts can have significant impact on what and how we train. For example, the above definition of "palm" changes the nature of what is "acceptable" for Pak Sao. The same applies to Bong Sao - what's more useful for training, defining it as "Wing arm" (valid) or "Shouldering arm" (also valid)...?

Transmission across different languages will always impact the flavor of a style. German Wing Chun will be slightly different than English Wing Chun, and different again than Spanish Wing Chun.
Wing Arm would be Yik Sau. ;) Anyway, I speak English, Cantonese, and Spanish. Some words in either language are consistent.

[Phil Redmond]

A lot of TWC people from my country (we have only TWC here :) ) successfully testing their skill all the time .And some of us tested our skill in a real combat situations .TWC works no mater what people say . I allways say to my students , if you want to know how to fight then you need to fight , there is no other way to learn how to fight besides acctual fighting.
Yes, I agree. What matters is if you can fight, period.

[Graham H]

Do we at least agree that fuhk means control?
Also I never post that someone is doing their WC wrong. I simply say this is how I do it and why. ;)

Yes we do. Controlling what is still in question. How one interprets WC varies nowadays. Is there a wrong and a right?? From my own expericences I have found better ways so I have had to out with the old and in with the new so to speak. For me there is a right and a wrong as one way totally contradicts the other.

GH

[Graham H]

Youtube allows one to upload videos that only your youtube friends can see. But it only allows up to 50 friends. We have more than 50 people in our Association world wide. My primary reason for uploading clips is so that TWC people can view them. If others view them it's cool. Though I respect other people's opinions I don't really care what they think of our WC. I only post some of the fighting we do online. There is lots more. Our guys have been successfully testing their WC in various full contact venues. If it doesn't work we don't train it. It's that simple. You're going to do what you do and I'm going to do what I do. Happy training my friend.

Agreed! ;)

GH

[Graham H]

Yes, I agree. What matters is if you can fight, period.

Whether you can fight or not depends on your opponent. In competitions you are normally matched by weight and experience. You are also limited in what techniques you can use. Ving Tsun relies on using some methods that are not for competition. If you take these actions away, add rules and regulations and add padding and protection then you are restricitng the effectiveness of the system. What you are left with is some weird form of kick boxing which I don't agree with. Chi Sau competitions are also a no no!

Here is a quote from WSL.....

The kind of fighting that I am referring to in this article is not that which one might see in the boxing ring because this kind of fight has been restricted by all kinds of rules and regulations, turning it into a game or sport which is far removed from real combat. What I am referring to here is the "real fight", free of rules and restrictions whether it be as the result of a conflict, or by mutual agreement. Because fighting is relative, the opponents' build and strength can and will directly affect the result of the conflict, therefore it is difficult to assume to know the outcome.

taken from the "Beimo" article

GH

[Phil Redmond]

Whether you can fight or not depends on your opponent. In competitions you are normally matched by weight and experience. You are also limited in what techniques you can use. Ving Tsun relies on using some methods that are not for competition. If you take these actions away, add rules and regulations and add padding and protection then you are restricitng the effectiveness of the system. What you are left with is some weird form of kick boxing which I don't agree with. Chi Sau competitions are also a no no! . . . . .

GH

Fighting, real or competitive have some things in common. The most important is attempting to hit someone who is hitting you back full force. I don't expect most people to go out and get into no rules street fights. So what other way can you pressure test your art? I'd say it's full contact events. You can't be a Marathon runner by talking about it or watching videos. You have to run. Dry land swimming is such a cliche but it really does apply to many people who study "martial" arts. Any of you who have fought full contact will agree. Those who never have will never know.
Now I'm not saying that one can't win in the streets without competing. A beer bottle to the head can end a fight. ;)

[Vajramusti]

Do we at least agree that fuhk means control?
Also I never post that someone is doing their WC wrong. I simply say this is how I do it and why. ;)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good perspective

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good perspective

joy chaudhuri
I knew you'd get it. NONE of us know what is "genuine" WC since we weren't around during it's development. We all choose what we like and make the best of it.

[Phil Redmond]

I know that WC promotes attacking in a street fight but sometimes you need to feel out an opponent in the ring. That's why I'm backing up. I want the students to learn distancing and when it's safe to go in during competitions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRC3a1RSk64

[Phil Redmond]

Nice edit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkBz5BHgUkY

[k gledhill]

Nice edit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkBz5BHgUkY

nice banners ! :D a student made them for me in HK ....
characters say Ving Tsun / Hero

[Phil Redmond]

nice banners ! :D a student made them for me in HK ....
characters say Ving Tsun / Hero

Those were nice banners. I always tried to take pics or clips with them in the background.
I know you had to take them . . . .:)

[Phil Redmond]

Which one is you here?

[k gledhill]

Second from the left, sweaty bald guy :D , the guy next to me with NYC is Gorkhan from PB in Zurich, visiting ergo picture . I copied the exact characters from my old Sifu GM Victor Kan's banners. If you go to his site, Im holding the same banners on the right when WSL visited the first time I saw him. GM W Chung visted too at the school and did a seminar but I missed it.

[Phil Redmond]

Second from the left, sweaty bald guy :D , the guy next to me with NYC is Gorkhan from PB in Zurich, visiting ergo picture .

Dang, you look mean . . . lol :D

[Vajramusti]

Second from the left, sweaty bald guy :D , the guy next to me with NYC is Gorkhan from PB in Zurich, visiting ergo picture . I copied the exact characters from my old Sifu GM Victor Kan's banners. If you go to his site, Im holding the same banners on the right when WSL visited the first time I saw him. GM W Chung visted too at the school and did a seminar but I missed it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Curious. Since you were disconnected with Kan sifu and joined PB-- did Kan sifu give you explicit permission to copy his characters?

joy

[Phil Redmond]

Second from the left, sweaty bald guy :D , the guy next to me with NYC is Gorkhan from PB in Zurich, visiting ergo picture . I copied the exact characters from my old Sifu GM Victor Kan's banners. If you go to his site, Im holding the same banners on the right when WSL visited the first time I saw him. GM W Chung visted too at the school and did a seminar but I missed it.

Couldn't find a pic of you holding a banner. But there are some nice pics there. I once read an interview where Sifu Kan said the the more guys Wm. Cheung was fighting in the street the more he would smile. My Sifu speaks highly of Kan's fighting skills as well. I gather they both got into a few "situations".

[Phil Redmond]

Phil

I am interested as you idea of Chi Sau is completely different to mine. For a start Poon Sau teaches you to NOT use the wrist but more the elbow. When I roll my wrists are not in contact with my training partners arms as yours clearly are. By having you wrist connected to the other guys wrist you are increasing the problem that, in my system, we are trying to correct. Fook Sau is NOT about controlling the other guys arms but rather about how we control our punching behaviour as the movement of the punch by bringing the elbow to the center is not a natural movement for humans to make. This is the reason we do these actions slow in SLT. Much like in yoga where we gently push our limbs in order to stretch and adopt new movements.........so we can punch correctly. What is your reason for the first part of SLT.

If you look at what you are doing with Fook Sau and Tan Sau in Poon Sau we are developing and improving the correct punching behaviour for the system and not how to control peoples arms as you show in that video. I also used to think Chi Sau was for learning these things but I clearly know now that they are not.

Tan Sau is a punching concept. Fook Sau is a punching concept. Poon Sau is used to train the punch, develop the correct structure for the punch and create balance in both punching arms. Chi Sau encapsulates many different drills and training methods and teaches how to best use our tools based on scientific ideas.

Can you give me your opinion??? It will make for better reading than when the Wing Chun Police jump all over my posts. Nee Nar, Nee Nar, Nee Nar!!! :D

GH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHeSDTJ8Fpc

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfOfpdn75RA

[Phil Redmond]

Cheung Kiu Jong (Long Bridge Dummy)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQMJY8K11VU

[YouKnowWho]

Your main focus is the wrist and ours is the elbow.

When your opponent punches at you, you can use your fore-arm, wrist, or even you hand to block it. If you want to "control" your opponent's punching arm after blocking, you have to use your wrist or hand. If you use your fore-arm to block your opponent's punch, you can slide your arm along your opponent's arm and let your wrist to contact your oponent's wrist. This will give you a wrist pulling opportunity, and you have to use the wrist of your Fook Sau as a "hook".

[Phil Redmond]

When your opponent punches at you, you can use your fore-arm, wrist, or even you hand to block it. If you want to "control" your opponent's punching arm after blocking, you have to use your wrist or hand. If you use your fore-arm to block your opponent's punch, you can slide your arm along your opponent's arm and let your wrist to contact your oponent's wrist. This will give you a wrist pulling opportunity, and you have to use the wrist of your Fook Sau as a "hook".
Thank God, I'm not the only one who knows that...:)

[GlennR]

Thank God, I'm not the only one who knows that...:)



Pretty much my take as well

[bennyvt]

i dont like the fook being a hook though. A fook is any blocking movement with contact on the inside. This should be turned into a punch if it can be. I always think of two main blocks, inside or outside. if contact is made on the outside we would tend to call this a tan sao. the tan only controls unti it can open enough of a whole to punch. if thats not [ossible the other hand punches. On the inside it includes several different blocks that lead to strikes, if contact is made at the hand then its a pak sao which then should punch. if it cant be controled with pak and their attack continues then a fook is used and it turns into a punch. if its still coming then jum sao (harder elbow movement) is used but the strike is harder to continue from the block.
Its all about moving the attack across to be able to hit the names change with where you are emphasising.
I think the main problem is when people go from a wrist only approach. To be able to counteract this they must be told to only use the wrist. it means that as they have only used the wrist til now, they will learn to use the whole arm instead of just the wrist. A problem with not understandong "verbal body cues". Meaning the way to teach some to use their body the way you want.

[YouKnowWho]

When you punch, you try to create a "head on collusion". If you can pull your opponent into your punch, your punch will achieve the maximum effect.

When you use your arm to block, your opponent can borrow your blocking force and change his striking path. In order to prevent that, it's better to stick and folow your arm with your opponent's arm. In this case the wrist also works better than the arm because a "hook (wrist to wrist contact)" is always stronger than the "sticky glue (arm to arm contact)".

If you can use your Fook Sau by putting your wrsit on top on your opponent fore-arm and pull his fore-arm along with his elbow to against your chest, you will have a good control on your opponent's arm. You can do a lot of things at that moment. The moment that you start to use your wrist, the moment that you have just open many doors for yourself.

[Phil Redmond]

Wrist used in the huen/fook

2:26 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iEnp8JxTwk

:32 and :39 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g54ycYJkoGg&feature=related

:39 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LJiu5UxGOA

:40 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=581N17XHmq0&feature=related

:40 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTXA5snEYa8&feature=related

:50 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4rDLWIddaU

[GlennR]

i dont like the fook being a hook though. A fook is any blocking movement with contact on the inside. This should be turned into a punch if it can be. I always think of two main blocks, inside or outside. if contact is made on the outside we would tend to call this a tan sao. the tan only controls unti it can open enough of a whole to punch. if thats not [ossible the other hand punches. On the inside it includes several different blocks that lead to strikes, if contact is made at the hand then its a pak sao which then should punch. if it cant be controled with pak and their attack continues then a fook is used and it turns into a punch. if its still coming then jum sao (harder elbow movement) is used but the strike is harder to continue from the block.
Its all about moving the attack across to be able to hit the names change with where you are emphasising.
I think the main problem is when people go from a wrist only approach. To be able to counteract this they must be told to only use the wrist. it means that as they have only used the wrist til now, they will learn to use the whole arm instead of just the wrist. A problem with not understandong "verbal body cues". Meaning the way to teach some to use their body the way you want.

Thoughts on this then Benny?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O8oDWlFMaM&feature=related

[sihing]

The wrist can be a contact point, it's attached to the forearm and elbow, but the intention behind the movements (at least what I do in VT) is from the elbow. You can't gather the power from a stable base and leg/glutes and bring it into the wrist power point, it's too far, and the wrist is too weak to transfer that type of force directly, rather the elbow power point is used for this purpose. The elbow in this case is the "rear" wheel drive, the wrist is the steering wheel, directing the force/power in the proper direction.

Wrist power comes from tense forearms and shoulder, both are isolated muscles, as compared to being stablalized by your torso/core and powered by both the lower & upper body.

Not the easiest to explain in written form or seen in a video (unless your familiar with it), but easily felt by someone that has it.


James

[k gledhill]

The wrist can be a contact point, it's attached to the forearm and elbow, but the intention behind the movements (at least what I do in VT) is from the elbow. You can't gather the power from a stable base and leg/glutes and bring it into the wrist power point, it's too far, and the wrist is too weak to transfer that type of force directly, rather the elbow power point is used for this purpose. The elbow in this case is the "rear" wheel drive, the wrist is the steering wheel, directing the force/power in the proper direction.

Wrist power comes from tense forearms and shoulder, both are isolated muscles, as compared to being stablalized by your torso/core and powered by both the lower & upper body.

Not the easiest to explain in written form or seen in a video (unless your familiar with it), but easily felt by someone that has it.


James

agreed...it only takes seconds to show fighting, if you're using wrists or elbows.

WSL won many fights within 3 moves using this aligned elbow center-line unity.

The more you understand this idea and its systematic development , the more you seek the perfection of this idea under continuously increasing levels of pressure, both in drills and fighting with the same ideas. Using additional angling counters facing , lateral shifting facing to cut off motion/escape.

We all make mistakes in training so we also learn to use these same simple mistakes when fighting. IOW we know from experience that guys will tend to chase or fight an extended arm , its a 'carrot' so to speak. Losing the alignment being trained/drilled as they strike. Some engage the carrot, not the person dangling it. Even guys training in this thinking know their mistakes without a word being said, simply by playing hit me or chase the carrot :D Body weight in motion also comes into play, momentum and controlling it. We can also add body chasing, to the mix...along with arms aligned or not , over turned too much. Too close to generate force, too far...reaching, leaning...all comes into play when fighting. It almost a lesson in fighting attributes, rathern than fighting a person. You fight their ability to control lines of force they throw in your direction, from what side and how we are tactically moving from these lines...Our centerline becomes a reference point for angles and force in space and time approaching us before we even touch them...

And while they may or may not make a mistake, each becomes more adept at fighting with 'no mind', in a focused assault with a subtle but strategic purpose guiding them in simple lightning fast exchanges. It reveals itself as a true 'science of fighting', to me anyway.
I give up trying to explain in woids, I cant shpell and my punctuation sux :D.

[Phil Redmond]

We use the wrist to move the arm because it's the weakest point. We use the elbow to control the arm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLbpaUGgRiU

[k gledhill]

We use the wrist to move the arm because it's the weakest point. We use the elbow to control the arm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLbpaUGgRiU

same here....the differences are in the striking arms we use also 'turn' as they strike the opponent.
All our techniques are allowing us to turn the opponent on their axis line.
using the 'wrists' as the longest lever to open small doors...bong sao's also use pak energy to open doors sideways, paks energy sideways, tan elbow sideways as fist is straight, jum elbow sideways [inwards] as fist strikes forwards...all our techniques, strikes, parries can have a direction shared to maintain the 'turning' idea. AKA not allowing facing...the centerline divides the direction we pursue to turn...left or right....you might cross the centerline yourself trying to 'block' my strikes, I can use this against you by letting you block my lead hand , the result is that you have turned yourself ? and I strike or move to stop you refacing quickly enough....

it is a science...

[Vajramusti]

agreed...it only takes seconds to show fighting, if you're using wrists or elbows.
I give up trying to explain in woids, I cant shpell and my punctuation sux :D.
------------------------------------------------
Restating the obvious-importance of the elbow!

jpy chaudhuri

[sihing]

agreed...it only takes seconds to show fighting, if you're using wrists or elbows.

WSL won many fights within 3 moves using this aligned elbow center-line unity.

The more you understand this idea and its systematic development , the more you seek the perfection of this idea under continuously increasing levels of pressure, both in drills and fighting with the same ideas. Using additional angling counters facing , lateral shifting facing to cut off motion/escape.

We all make mistakes in training so we also learn to use these same simple mistakes when fighting. IOW we know from experience that guys will tend to chase or fight an extended arm , its a 'carrot' so to speak. Losing the alignment being trained/drilled as they strike. Some engage the carrot, not the person dangling it. Even guys training in this thinking know their mistakes without a word being said, simply by playing hit me or chase the carrot :D Body weight in motion also comes into play, momentum and controlling it. We can also add body chasing, to the mix...along with arms aligned or not , over turned too much. Too close to generate force, too far...reaching, leaning...all comes into play when fighting. It almost a lesson in fighting attributes, rathern than fighting a person. You fight their ability to control lines of force they throw in your direction, from what side and how we are tactically moving from these lines...Our centerline becomes a reference point for angles and force in space and time approaching us before we even touch them...

And while they may or may not make a mistake, each becomes more adept at fighting with 'no mind', in a focused assault with a subtle but strategic purpose guiding them in simple lightning fast exchanges. It reveals itself as a true 'science of fighting', to me anyway.
I give up trying to explain in woids, I cant shpell and my punctuation sux :D.

Nice post Kev. Yes, this method of training is definetly something that has to be felt,,,explaining about it on a forum or viewing a vid of it doesn't do it justice. Before my experience with it, I too used to just shrug it off as nothing special, "We have that too.." thinking, but when I first experienced it for myself, that is when the change happened for me. But to each their own, for some this is not their way, and I'm not here to say who's right or wrong, just sharing some experience and preference.

What I like most about the approach is that it is all about bringing the fight back to the person who is attacking you. Like Graham said, tan/fok are all about training the punch, this is one of the first ideas taught, and its a good one as this teaches the correct thinking, be proactive rather than reactive. The whole training method has that thinking behind it. Chi sau is not a sensitivity or trapping excersise (although you do gain these abilities as side benefits), rather it trains things like proper facing (learning to fight with both hands and torso forward), pressure exchange which translates to power output, footwork and sealing off your opponent, aiming of tools to target, etc etc...Sensitivity is way down the list.

James

[k gledhill]

------------------------------------------------
Restating the obvious-importance of the elbow!

jpy chaudhuri

You don't develop as I am ...your more like I used to train.
I have been to Tuscon and met students here.
just saying, not a ****ing match.
Tan/ Jum are punches using elbows to create angles as they strike
Forwards...

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1100089]You don't develop as I am ...your more like I used to train.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sigh!! And. zzzzzzz

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

Nice post Kev. Yes, this method of training is definetly something that has to be felt,,,explaining about it on a forum or viewing a vid of it doesn't do it justice. Before my experience with it, I too used to just shrug it off as nothing special, "We have that too.." thinking, but when I first experienced it for myself, that is when the change happened for me. But to each their own, for some this is not their way, and I'm not here to say who's right or wrong, just sharing some experience and preference.

What I like most about the approach is that it is all about bringing the fight back to the person who is attacking you. Like Graham said, tan/fok are all about training the punch, this is one of the first ideas taught, and its a good one as this teaches the correct thinking, be proactive rather than reactive. The whole training method has that thinking behind it. Chi sau is not a sensitivity or trapping excersise (although you do gain these abilities as side benefits), rather it trains things like proper facing (learning to fight with both hands and torso forward), pressure exchange which translates to power output, footwork and sealing off your opponent, aiming of tools to target, etc etc...Sensitivity is way down the list.

James

like you say its hard to convey the feeling on the receiving end ...

[bennyvt]

hey glen. I would probably do that differently. not so far to the side. the way its done would only really work if to control the other hand if its in the centre anyway. I would use it more like a jut without the hook hand, using the stickiness to move his hand but only to get the strike with that hand. But more with the elbow and not bringing the hand back. if it couldnt attack then you may have to go more sideways but more of a forward paksao to get the other hand in.
But everyone does it differently.

[GlennR]

hey glen. I would probably do that differently. not so far to the side. the way its done would only really work if to control the other hand if its in the centre anyway. I would use it more like a jut without the hook hand, using the stickiness to move his hand but only to get the strike with that hand. But more with the elbow and not bringing the hand back. if it couldnt attack then you may have to go more sideways but more of a forward paksao to get the other hand in.
But everyone does it differently.



thanks Benny..... you guys up for a catch up some time soon?

[bennyvt]

sounds good, we should get arlich and imperial and any others around sydney or further (being in newy) and go have a drink.

[GlennR]

sounds good, we should get arlich and imperial and any others around sydney or further (being in newy) and go have a drink.



Mate, thats a great idea

When im done drinking my 7th beer tonight ill drp a thread tomorrow
Hey, hows Bill?

[Phil Redmond]

Mate, thats a great idea

When im done drinking my 7th beer tonight ill drp a thread tomorrow
Hey, hows Bill?
When I go to OZ I have to hang out with you......:D

[bennyvt]

bill good. hes comming from china a a few weeks for a month or so. MAking sure i dont look to bad for when he gets here. Many beers to be had.
Hey phil, would love to buy you a beer if you ever in Aus.

[GlennR]

bill good. hes comming from china a a few weeks for a month or so. MAking sure i dont look to bad for when he gets here. Many beers to be had.
Hey phil, would love to buy you a beer if you ever in Aus.



Mate id love to ctach up when he gets there.... drop me a message when he does

And id love to buy Phil the 2nd beer ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Had to post this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv7QdSaj2m4

[WC1277]

Had to post this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv7QdSaj2m4

If this is in reference to that thread a while back about the "WC fighter" or whatever it was called, wasn't the OP just making the point that WC was just concept based more than actual successful technique? Doesn't this video kind of just reinforce that idea?

[Phil Redmond]

If this is in reference to that thread a while back about the "WC fighter" or whatever it was called, wasn't the OP just making the point that WC was just concept based more than actual successful technique? Doesn't this video kind of just reinforce that idea?

Actually it was referring to people who have never tried to pull off a perfect technique while fighting someone who is hitting back. Yet they complain when others who are pressure testing don't look perfect.

[shawchemical]

sounds good, we should get arlich and imperial and any others around sydney or further (being in newy) and go have a drink.

Count me in too..