PDA

View Full Version : Shaolin Kempo Karate... Thoughts?



jennreese
08-30-2001, 08:05 PM
Hi,

I just started studying "Shaolin Kempo Karate" at a Fred Villari's Self-Defense Studio. It's described as a mix of "Kung Fu, Karate, and Jiu Jitsu."

I've wanted to learn a martial art for a very long time, but have been too intimidated to start. This school came recommended as having a comfortable atmosphere and a higher percentage of women students. Since I really wanted to learn some form of Kung Fu (despite the proliferation of TKD studios in the area), I'm trying it out.

I've been taking classes for five weeks and I really enjoy it, but I'm interested in learning more about the school's or the style's reputation. I'm trying to make sense out of this large, confusing new world.

Any information or opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Jenn

Silumkid
08-31-2001, 12:51 AM
Hi Jenn,

To be honest with you, I know very little about Fred Villari or his style of martial arts. However, it is generally considered "wrong" for a karate style to associate with the Shaolin name. Take that as you will.

I think someone was posting info about Fred Villair previously. Try a search under Villari or Shaolin Kempo and I'm sure you'll find something.

Sorry I couldn't be more help.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

jennreese
08-31-2001, 02:27 AM
Thanks for the suggestion to search, although I wish I hadn't done so. :)

I like the school, the other students, and my instructor very much, so I think I'll just be happy with that and try to ignore everything I just read. ;)

Just for the record, though, I'm interested in finding other KF schools in the Glendale/Pasadena CA area. Feel free to email so as not to clog the forum. (Or is there a more appropriate place I should have asked that?)

Thanks again,
Jenn

nobody
08-31-2001, 05:56 AM
i looked these schools up for you but i dont know how good they are or thier reps, but this is what i found. :D

Asia Arts Kung Fu Club Studio
Pasadena, CA. 91050
(626) 583-9009

Chinese Kung Fu San Soo & Tai Chi Chuan
2826 E Foothill Blvd. Pasadena, CA. 91107
(626) 568-0577

Shan Tung Kung Fu Associate
1154 E Colorado Blvd. Pasadena, CA. 91106
(626) 577-0525

nobody
08-31-2001, 05:59 AM
if you can make a drive to san francisco then you are in luck, because that is the mecca of kung fu when it comes to the States

omegapoint
08-31-2001, 06:10 AM
Shorin=Shaolin in Japanese, as in Shorin Ryu (Flow)
Shorinji=Shaolin temple, as in Shorinji Kempo and the Okinawan Suidi (Shorin Ryu) style of Chotoku Kyan, Shorinji Ryu
How are you gonna call yourself a martial artist, when you don't even know the history of all Chinese-based fighting traditions?
These names are not modern manifestations, either.

I think that Villari Kenpo might be a little more comprehensive fighting style than say, TKD or White Lotus Kung Fu. Try it. It might be cool, and if Villari was a Pinoy then he probably knew more about street defense than the average American McDojo Sinsay! Later and good training!

Silumkid
08-31-2001, 06:17 AM
OK omegapoint,

I am very aware of Shorinji Ryu, however, if you re-read my post you will see that I said "generally speaking". Jenn asked a specific question to which I provided a general answer. Also, I have very rarely heard Shorinji-Ryu referred to as "karate".

In short, before you decide to question my "martial artistry", you should learn how to spell martial arts words like "Sensei". Besides, if you are one of those *******es who says you're the "real" martial artist and everybody else isn't, you got more serious problems than your lack of grammer skills.

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

Silumkid
08-31-2001, 06:20 AM
Jenn,

Glad to help (such that it was). As long as you are enjoying what you are doing, have at it!

By the way, how far is Pasadena from Garden Grove? If I remember right, it's fairly far, isn't it? I was going to suggest a school, but if it's too far to drive, it won't do you much good.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

omegapoint
09-01-2001, 01:18 AM
Don't frikkin' tell me about spelling foolio! I'm a freakin' Grad student. I was making a play on words, Mister Astute. I never said a **** thing about any arts supremacy, but obviously you believe that your Kung Poop is untouchable, as is evident from your reply to homegirl.

Generally speaking, will get you in hella trouble, Coo-Coo Cal! Shorinji is Shorin so stop with the sneaky diss you genius!
Sensei Seer

Ironpig
09-04-2001, 08:41 PM
If you concern yourself with reputation you will find that the school you go to has none.

There will always be people who will nay say and grief post crap about whatever you do.

Just look for truth in the techniques, expose yourself to as many arts and practitioners as possible and be open to the idea that you may not have the be all end all art that is advertised.

Did I mention have fun?

I left Fred Villari's because I couldn't get a straight answer from the top masters on lineage and where the forms came from. When I asked one too many times I was told that I was being disrespectful. WTF? If they didnt know they could have just said so, I would still be there researching the answers myself.

Your experience may be different, have a great time and try to pull good skills and some friends from ANY experience.

just a few pennies from a pig.....
-"bigger is BIGGER"

IronPig

MixedMartialArtist
09-04-2001, 08:56 PM
Way to be Ironpig...some common sense and good advice.

Jenn,
As long as you're comfortable, having fun, and learning, the style and the teacher don't matter all that much. Every style has strengths and weaknesses. No matter what style you choose, someone on this thread will try to tell it's no good. Don't worry about the people who tell you you're wrong, just enjoy yourself.

rogue
09-05-2001, 02:54 AM
I was a student at a SKK school. It wasn't as bad as I make it out to be. The reason I left after collecting an arm load of belts, was that during testing I'd use the techniques I learned from Jujitsu.

I did learn about striking at SKK and did have a goodtime.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

Dark Knight
09-05-2001, 10:13 PM
The style is a good system. From White to black you learn Karaste. Its not until the BB levels that you really get into kung Fu.

The forms are generic Karate forms. many different styles teach them, the advantage is if you go somewhere else you have a lgitiamate base, not something someone made up so they couldopen thier own school.

You will find that the stlye flows vwery nice, it smooths out the karate, and gives it more coplexity.

Like many styles, it has good instructors and crappy ones. Villaris biggest downfall is quality controll, if you have a good instructor stay with it, if not find another.

Ironpig
09-06-2001, 08:53 PM
Having practiced with people on the east coast, the west coast and the midwest, I NEVER saw anything that resembled Chinese martial arts.

This includes the nightmare of looking at the Tai Chi that John Fritz was selling.

Having learned traditional Karate forms from Kyokushinkai and Shotokan, I can say without reservation that Villaris does not teach these forms.

Spending the last six plus years working with Wushu and Kuoshu people, I can also say that theres nothing in there that resembles a chinese form.

Sorry to so vehemently disagree, but Villari's is a bunch of altered made up forms at every level.

just a few pennies from a pig.....
-"bigger is BIGGER"

IronPig

Dark Knight
09-06-2001, 11:14 PM
"Sorry to so vehemently disagree, but Villari's is a bunch of altered made up forms at every level."

I have run across the forms in other systems, Shutokan uses the pinions, among other Karate styles Ive seen, even George Dillman has them on tape.

I forget where I ran across the Kata's, but I have seen them elsewhere also.

I have not seen the animal forms elsewhere, but they could be his own creation. (Dont know..or care)

Ironpig
09-06-2001, 11:45 PM
And remember to ignore the political stuff...like what I am spapping at the mouth about and have a great time.

Dark Knight, I agree that the word 'Penan' is used to describe sets in the Villari's system, but go to a japanese martial art school and see the MAJOR differences and the ommisions. Altered sets. Missing meaning.

I was told the 'Kata' forms were the Heian sets from shotokan. nope...not even close.

The animal forms I saw performed and learned were...innovative and interesting...but have little to do with the classical chinese forms for the animals other than the names being similiar.

I admit I am bitter, burned out and badly in need of a vacation.

I have posted on this before, I end up saying the same thing every time:

Villari's martial art is just that, Frd Villari's martial art. It may have been deeply influenced by other arts, but now it HIS art in full. I believe he and his art does himself a disservice for calling it anything else.

Fred Villari created an art that shoudl be able to stand on its own without claiming to have bettered so many lineages. Literally stating: using all the good and omitting all of the bad techniques.

listed as they were when I was there:

Shaolin Kempo Karate, Kung Fu, Jiu Jitsu and Tai Chi.

Shaolin is a life study all by itself to gain any real benefit from it. Northern or southern. Having studied Northern and having good friends practicing Hung Gar, never learned any in Villari's.

Kempo is an art unto itself.

Karate is an art unto itself.

Kung Fu is a generic term for martial arts, also kind of like 'Xerox', adds brand name recognition.

Jiu Jitsu is also an art unto itself, a lifetime study.

Tai Chi CHUAN, as it should be called when you are referring to the martial art, is an art UNTO itself as well.

To have all of those influences is great, I can really appreciate the work he put into his art.

He should just cut the crap and call it what it is: Villari Do.

I have yet to meet an instructor that really impresses me. My brother and a good friend are ranked teachers in the style. They have good skills, both get a sheepish look on their face when you ask about the over the top style of lineage claiming.

Its just not needed.

Okay, Rant is done.

That all above having been said, I would study it today if I could get an honest answer from an instructor that wasnt an advertisement.

Jenn, you just go, ignore us old bitter folk and ENJOY yourself.

**** I need a vacation. I need a LONG vacation.

just a few pennies from a pig.....
-"bigger is BIGGER"

IronPig

Dark Knight
09-06-2001, 11:58 PM
"That all above having been said, I would study it today if I could get an honest answer from an instructor that wasnt an advertisement."

That is so true. I never really appreciated the style until I left and spent years with other styles to see what is in the Villari system.

I like the system, but no one teaches it very well, information is not complete (For example the meaning of the forms is not tought)The Knung Fu forms are not KF, mabey KF influenced but they are not KF forms.

"Fred Villari created an art that shoudl be able to stand on its own without claiming to have bettered so many lineages. "

I agree, but he is also a business and makes some decisions on money.

rogue
09-07-2001, 05:01 AM
Quality control of instructors does seem to bite. I don't think there's anything wrong with creating your own legitimate system(meaning it works) Bruce Lee did it and he's almost a god to some people, so why not Villari.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

nobody
09-07-2001, 04:50 PM
"bruce lee is almost a god to some people" that is quite true, but i find that quite ironic, because all he wanted to be know as was a true human being...

Dark Knight
09-08-2001, 06:12 AM
"Bruce Lee did it and he's almost a god to some people, so why not Villari."

Sometimes dieing can be the best thing for a career.

rogue
09-08-2001, 10:43 PM
Then again Villari brings a lot of the abuse for his system upon himself. Contrived name, the questionable quality control, etc.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

Dark Knight
09-09-2001, 05:30 PM
"Then again Villari brings a lot of the abuse for his system upon himself. Contrived name, the questionable quality control, etc."

The system itself is a good system. Its greatest strength is its greatest weakness, too much information. Most people can find what works best for them in it. (Out side of specializing in sporting events, its not NHB, or Olympic TKD or Judo tournament stuff)

But it covers so much that it takes a long time to find your nich and work on it.

If you were to find a knowledgeable instructor in the system (unluckily too may are clueless) the theory's, concepts, information and techniques are comp. to any style.

(But we see this in every style, I even met a guy who teaches "Brazillian Style Jiu-Jitsu" Im not sure what that is)

The biggest problem Villari has is Villari. The schools worry to much about getting money from the students. I know of schools that have hundreds of students and because of the enrollment do not charge for testing (enough money comes in from the monthly fees)Villari tries new ways of getting a few more bucks out of the individual schools.

Quality control is another problem, good system but he lets anyone throw his name on the door for a price. You can walk into a school and have a great instructor, or a smoking fat guy who cant teach a dog starving to beg.

Villari could ave been a leading name in modern martial arts, but money is keeping him back.

rogue
09-09-2001, 11:38 PM
Talk about testing for dollars, I once got to test twice in one month! It was wrong, but my ego needed stroking. :D


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

SKK
06-29-2006, 01:05 PM
The forms in the Villari system may be taken from another martial art, they may not. Who cares? How can anyone say they came up with a certain type of movement? How can you claim to own the idea of movement?

The important thing is that the instrcutors understand the forms. There is a HUGE difference between 1 Pinion and 2 Pinion. PLENTY of schools have taken the forms/katas from the Villari system (USSD), and while they can perform them, they aren't moving properly as they do them. You see they don't 'get the point'.

As far as I know the only form Fred Villari actually takes credit for comming up with is Sho Tung Kwok. A form only a second degree black belt in the Villari system learns. This form contains hints of all parts of the style. It is very shaolin in its movements. Its easier to teach someone who knows karate and kempo how to move like a shaolin than it is to teach someone who knows nothign about moving their body.

Also, there is another form, where the premise of the form is a karate form, being performed BY a Shaolin. It has the rigid stances of karate but grazes through them gracefully as a shaolin.

I didn't tell you anyting that cannot be found on wikipedia.

jstreet
07-16-2006, 12:16 AM
http://www.austinkenpokarate.com/

How does this style of Karate differ from SKK?

TenTigers
08-01-2006, 12:41 PM
JSTREET-no, that is from Ed Parker's Kenpo, which is a completely different breed than Villari's. Ed Parker learned from William Chow, and although Chow taught Nick Cerio who taught Villari, they branched off into two completely different directions. Parker's stuff is very good, very technical.

shaolin monkey3
08-18-2006, 06:56 PM
If you concern yourself with reputation you will find that the school you go to has none.

There will always be people who will nay say and grief post crap about whatever you do.

Just look for truth in the techniques, expose yourself to as many arts and practitioners as possible and be open to the idea that you may not have the be all end all art that is advertised.

Did I mention have fun?

I left Fred Villari's because I couldn't get a straight answer from the top masters on lineage and where the forms came from. When I asked one too many times I was told that I was being disrespectful. WTF? If they didnt know they could have just said so, I would still be there researching the answers myself.

Your experience may be different, have a great time and try to pull good skills and some friends from ANY experience.

just a few pennies from a pig.....
-"bigger is BIGGER"

IronPig

Fred villari made alot of the forms after black belt.

shaolin monkey3
08-18-2006, 07:06 PM
"Then again Villari brings a lot of the abuse for his system upon himself. Contrived name, the questionable quality control, etc."

The system itself is a good system. Its greatest strength is its greatest weakness, too much information. Most people can find what works best for them in it. (Out side of specializing in sporting events, its not NHB, or Olympic TKD or Judo tournament stuff)

But it covers so much that it takes a long time to find your nich and work on it.

If you were to find a knowledgeable instructor in the system (unluckily too may are clueless) the theory's, concepts, information and techniques are comp. to any style.

(But we see this in every style, I even met a guy who teaches "Brazillian Style Jiu-Jitsu" Im not sure what that is)

The biggest problem Villari has is Villari. The schools worry to much about getting money from the students. I know of schools that have hundreds of students and because of the enrollment do not charge for testing (enough money comes in from the monthly fees)Villari tries new ways of getting a few more bucks out of the individual schools.

Quality control is another problem, good system but he lets anyone throw his name on the door for a price. You can walk into a school and have a great instructor, or a smoking fat guy who cant teach a dog starving to beg.

Villari could ave been a leading name in modern martial arts, but money is keeping him back.

If you think villaris is bad check out USSD, villaris student broke off(Charles mattera) 15 or so years ago and now charges some where between 180 to 225 a MONTH!

I have found in charles mattera's organization ussd to run by red belts and 1st and 2nd degrees.

Citong Shifu
08-19-2006, 07:23 PM
I just got done reviewing Villari's website, since I didnt really know anything about Shaolin Kempo Karate... WTH! Villari makes several statements concerning Karate blows are much more explosive than Shaolin Kung fu blows, allowing karate to execute fewer moves to get the job done. Also, Shaolin Kung Fu has more patterns of multiple strike, making it easier to counter attack, etc.

Well, I Dont know what this guy is thinking, but I can tell you right now He's 100% wrong, in all aspects of Shaolin Kung Fu, power, stance, patterns, etc. For someone who mastered Shaolin kung fu, he sure doesnt know jack about it.

I really dont care what the guys calls his style. But, there's no authentic Shaolin there. Jenn, I agree with ten tiger, Run.

sk girl
05-01-2007, 08:17 PM
If you think villaris is bad check out USSD, villaris student broke off(Charles mattera) 15 or so years ago and now charges some where between 180 to 225 a MONTH!

I have found in charles mattera's organization ussd to run by red belts and 1st and 2nd degrees.


Yes this true. A lot of people consider mattera the con man of martial arts.

ninja matt
05-25-2007, 10:31 AM
I just got done reviewing Villari's website, since I didnt really know anything about Shaolin Kempo Karate... WTH! Villari makes several statements concerning Karate blows are much more explosive than Shaolin Kung fu blows, allowing karate to execute fewer moves to get the job done. Also, Shaolin Kung Fu has more patterns of multiple strike, making it easier to counter attack, etc.

Well, I Dont know what this guy is thinking, but I can tell you right now He's 100% wrong, in all aspects of Shaolin Kung Fu, power, stance, patterns, etc. For someone who mastered Shaolin kung fu, he sure doesnt know jack about it.

I really dont care what the guys calls his style. But, there's no authentic Shaolin there. Jenn, I agree with ten tiger, Run.

Your right about there being no shaolin in villaris shaolin kempo ten tiger.
I used to study and work for ussd a villari breakoff school and they tried to pull the same crap villari did claiming their teaching the authentic shaolin gung fu.
Steve damasco wrote in the new black belt mag he's been training in shaolin for 20 some years now. What a load of #@$%

ninja matt
05-29-2007, 02:00 PM
If you think villaris is bad check out USSD, villaris student broke off(Charles mattera) 15 or so years ago and now charges some where between 180 to 225 a MONTH!

I have found in charles mattera's organization ussd to run by red belts and 1st and 2nd degrees.

This is one of things that irritate me about ussd. You never knew if your instructor was any good or if he was really a blue belt. A red belt or 1st degree should not charge 200 a month for karate lessons. A $100 is a fair price for a ussd red belt/black belt not $200 for an unqualified green belt at best.

After I worked there for a while I noticed certain instructors were promoted fast based on sales skills. Nothing about sparing or knowing the art it self just how many people they signed up. A real black belt should run a school not a 20 year old black belt who has only studied for a year and a half and is now a black belt.

All in all ussd's instructor black belts are green belts at best.

SenseiShellie
05-29-2007, 05:54 PM
This is one of things that irritate me about ussd. You never knew if your instructor was any good or if he was really a blue belt. A red belt or 1st degree should not charge 200 a month for karate lessons. A $100 is a fair price for a ussd red belt/black belt not $200 for an unqualified green belt at best.

After I worked there for a while I noticed certain instructors were promoted fast based on sales skills. Nothing about sparing or knowing the art it self just how many people they signed up. A real black belt should run a school not a 20 year old black belt who has only studied for a year and a half and is now a black belt.

All in all ussd's instructor black belts are green belts at best.

:eek: :eek: =X

sk girl
06-08-2007, 11:23 AM
This is one of things that irritate me about ussd. You never knew if your instructor was any good or if he was really a blue belt. A red belt or 1st degree should not charge 200 a month for karate lessons. A $100 is a fair price for a ussd red belt/black belt not $200 for an unqualified green belt at best.

After I worked there for a while I noticed certain instructors were promoted fast based on sales skills. Nothing about sparing or knowing the art it self just how many people they signed up. A real black belt should run a school not a 20 year old black belt who has only studied for a year and a half and is now a black belt.

All in all ussd's instructor black belts are green belts at best.


a $100 for a ussd red belt teaching you is not a bad idea. What they are teaching you at ussd is #@$% anyway so it should be free.

USSD instructors are promoted for sales skill not martial arts.

ninja matt
06-16-2007, 11:29 AM
a $100 for a ussd red belt teaching you is not a bad idea. What they are teaching you at ussd is #@$% anyway so it should be free.

USSD instructors are promoted for sales skill not martial arts.

Haha. I agree with you it should all be free at ussd it sucks in my opinion.

sk girl
06-28-2007, 01:58 PM
Haha. I agree with you it should all be free at ussd it sucks in my opinion.

They should pay you to attened their classes.:eek:

SenseiShellie
06-29-2007, 02:23 PM
They should pay you to attened their classes.:eek:

Ouch...burn?

wyatt1970
06-29-2007, 05:07 PM
hey sinsei shellie, didn't you teach at the seal beach school and yorba linda ussd school?

Samurai Jack
07-03-2007, 12:27 AM
Hey, I'm just curious; What martial art(s) are all you ex-Shaolin Kempo people training in now?

wyatt1970
07-03-2007, 02:45 PM
i am still apart of ussd, i have been a part of them since 1985 and it is a good school and system,, there are some people that maybe aren't the best instructors but as a whole they bring so much to the martial arts community

SenseiShellie
07-05-2007, 12:02 PM
Hey, I'm just curious; What martial art(s) are all you ex-Shaolin Kempo people training in now?

I train in Chen Style Taiji, BJJ and Kung Fu.

xcakid
07-06-2007, 11:58 AM
Hey, I'm just curious; What martial art(s) are all you ex-Shaolin Kempo people training in now?


Shaolin Long Fist for me. And Kali/Arnis

sun dragon
07-22-2007, 12:50 PM
i am still apart of ussd, i have been a part of them since 1985 and it is a good school and system,, there are some people that maybe aren't the best instructors but as a whole they bring so much to the martial arts community

I dont think they bring anything to the community:mad:
Charging $200 a month for karate lessons does not help the community out.
How will single parents be able to afford lessons? Poor kids?
Yeah great company wyatt, they do so much for everyone.:mad:

sun dragon
07-22-2007, 12:52 PM
This is one of things that irritate me about ussd. You never knew if your instructor was any good or if he was really a blue belt. A red belt or 1st degree should not charge 200 a month for karate lessons. A $100 is a fair price for a ussd red belt/black belt not $200 for an unqualified green belt at best.

After I worked there for a while I noticed certain instructors were promoted fast based on sales skills. Nothing about sparing or knowing the art it self just how many people they signed up. A real black belt should run a school not a 20 year old black belt who has only studied for a year and a half and is now a black belt.

All in all ussd's instructor black belts are green belts at best.

You noticed the same thing:mad:

Snake77
08-07-2007, 07:15 PM
I had the opprutunity to take Shaolin Kempo Karate for only 2 or 3 months about 15 yrs. ago. It was good from what I remember and very practical. My instructor was a woman named Joan. Unfortunanetly she left to go open a school in either KY or TN. I wish it were still available here.:(

NJM
08-07-2007, 09:02 PM
I had the opprutunity to take Shaolin Kempo Karate for only 2 or 3 months about 15 yrs. ago. It was good from what I remember and very practical. My instructor was a woman named Joan. Unfortunanetly she left to go open a school in either KY or TN. I wish it were still available here.:(

Hello, Snake.

As you can see by the previous posts in this thread, the USSD/SSK corporations are not regarded highly in the Martial Arts community. I personally think that they are Bullshido McDojos that jeopardize the future of our art, and that they should be prosecuted for fraud.

However, it is possible that your teacher Joan, through her experience and training, was able to develop her own combat theory that rubbed off on you in a positive way.

SenseiShellie
08-08-2007, 12:30 AM
I had the opprutunity to take Shaolin Kempo Karate for only 2 or 3 months about 15 yrs. ago. It was good from what I remember and very practical. My instructor was a woman named Joan. Unfortunanetly she left to go open a school in either KY or TN. I wish it were still available here.:(

Your teacher is in KY and is a 9th degree now. Her name is Joan Richert. She's still around.

Snake77
08-09-2007, 04:13 AM
Your teacher is in KY and is a 9th degree now. Her name is Joan Richert. She's still around.


Awesome! She was an excellent instructor.

sk girl
08-11-2007, 01:45 PM
I had the opprutunity to take Shaolin Kempo Karate for only 2 or 3 months about 15 yrs. ago. It was good from what I remember and very practical. My instructor was a woman named Joan. Unfortunanetly she left to go open a school in either KY or TN. I wish it were still available here.:(

Hey snake77,
Joan is still with Fred Villaris and she was promoted to 9th degree last year.
http://www.gokempo.com/

Harley_man67
08-14-2007, 11:56 AM
This is one of things that irritate me about ussd. You never knew if your instructor was any good or if he was really a blue belt. A red belt or 1st degree should not charge 200 a month for karate lessons. A $100 is a fair price for a ussd red belt/black belt not $200 for an unqualified green belt at best.

After I worked there for a while I noticed certain instructors were promoted fast based on sales skills. Nothing about sparing or knowing the art it self just how many people they signed up. A real black belt should run a school not a 20 year old black belt who has only studied for a year and a half and is now a black belt.

All in all ussd's instructor black belts are green belts at best.

I am new to this forum and to the MA world in general but my experience with USSD has been very different from what I see posted on here. My wife is a 1st dan in TKD and has been looking to train in a different art with a great teacher for a few years now. As a matter of fact at least 50% of the students in our class have achieved black belt status in other arts. I state this fact because I followed the recommendations of more experienced students before signing up for this style. I have now trained for almost 1 1/2 years and am now a green belt. I also volunteer for the instructor's class and assist during the children's classes. I do not have to pay anything for the instructor's class and there is not one red belt who ever taught an adult class, period. We do not teach the children's class either, we only take them through warm-ups and never without the chief instructor present. For my wife and I to take classes it is under $200.00 and my son is allowed to take classes for free as long as he maintains a certain GPA. Our school is run by a husband and wife and they are a 2nd dan and 3rd dan respectively and both close to testing for the next rank. I personally think they are great teachers and overall it is a good system. But I also know that my experience is limited so I trust in the judgments of fellow students who have trained in all different styles and for many years. I also admit having little knowledge of how it is run on the west coast as we are the only school in Pennsylvania and have no contact with them. I understand and respect some of the gripes on here concerning the shaolin connection but to completely bash an entire system it's teachers, and students is just plain ridiculous. I know I have been taught to show respect to all students and styles whether I agree or not and I try my best to follow that way. If any of you are ever in or near Pittsburgh please stop by and visit our school, we probably won't change your mind but we will make you feel at home.

Much Respect

SenseiShellie
08-14-2007, 12:31 PM
I am new to this forum and to the MA world in general but my experience with USSD has been very different from what I see posted on here. My wife is a 1st dan in TKD and has been looking to train in a different art with a great teacher for a few years now. As a matter of fact at least 50% of the students in our class have achieved black belt status in other arts. I state this fact because I followed the recommendations of more experienced students before signing up for this style. I have now trained for almost 1 1/2 years and am now a green belt. I also volunteer for the instructor's class and assist during the children's classes. I do not have to pay anything for the instructor's class and there is not one red belt who ever taught an adult class, period. We do not teach the children's class either, we only take them through warm-ups and never without the chief instructor present. For my wife and I to take classes it is under $200.00 and my son is allowed to take classes for free as long as he maintains a certain GPA. Our school is run by a husband and wife and they are a 2nd dan and 3rd dan respectively and both close to testing for the next rank. I personally think they are great teachers and overall it is a good system. But I also know that my experience is limited so I trust in the judgments of fellow students who have trained in all different styles and for many years. I also admit having little knowledge of how it is run on the west coast as we are the only school in Pennsylvania and have no contact with them. I understand and respect some of the gripes on here concerning the shaolin connection but to completely bash an entire system it's teachers, and students is just plain ridiculous. I know I have been taught to show respect to all students and styles whether I agree or not and I try my best to follow that way. If any of you are ever in or near Pittsburgh please stop by and visit our school, we probably won't change your mind but we will make you feel at home.

Much Respect

Come talk to me when you have been completely disrespected by them. You only have your experience...good for you. However, you don't have the experience of people that have been in SKK for 20 years. Your entire system was created by a man named Fred Villari...where is he in your lineage?

sanjuro_ronin
08-14-2007, 12:37 PM
Hey snake77,
Joan is still with Fred Villaris and she was promoted to 9th degree last year.
http://www.gokempo.com/

Holy crap, going over their instructor profiles and where do all these 4th degrees come from?
Is there a mill somewhere ???

Harley_man67
08-14-2007, 02:42 PM
Come talk to me when you have been completely disrespected by them. You only have your experience...good for you. However, you don't have the experience of people that have been in SKK for 20 years. Your entire system was created by a man named Fred Villari...where is he in your lineage?

I have read alot of your posts and I feel sorry for you. You carry around alot of resentments and have a bitterness that is tragic. I hope you find peace and serenity someday.
Much Respect

NJM
08-14-2007, 03:28 PM
I have read alot of your posts and I feel sorry for you. You carry around alot of resentments and have a bitterness that is tragic. I hope you find peace and serenity someday.
Much Respect

And to you, I hope that you test your skills against a practitioner in another art someday. I know there is no point in arguing Villari's tyrannical nature with you, because that is like trying to convince members of a religion that one of their founders was a mass-murderer. It never works when someone has made up their mind to take security over truth.

SenseiShellie
08-14-2007, 04:03 PM
I have read alot of your posts and I feel sorry for you. You carry around alot of resentments and have a bitterness that is tragic. I hope you find peace and serenity someday.
Much Respect

You don't know me. I only speak about what happened to me so that way to save others from the same fate. I have found peace. I've found teachers and arts that I love to train in...with instructors that are good and honest people. Not instructors that only want to milk you for money. You'll find that out soon enough. Don't worry though, you like the style. Your school isn't charging standardized rates...they will get fined. If you and your wife train for only $200 a month combined, then that's going against the standardized rates. That's a $150 fine per student, if I remember correctly. Hopefully you're not on ABC billing. That's the only way headquarters will find out. That's only being done to compete with the Fred Villari schools in Penn. anyway. Watch your rates go up soon. Oh wait...have you started the academy? That'll be fun! Watch more money disappear. That's how it works. Just being blunt. I'm not bitter anymore. I have better things to do.



And to you, I hope that you test your skills against a practitioner in another art someday. I know there is no point in arguing Villari's tyrannical nature with you, because that is like trying to convince members of a religion that one of their founders was a mass-murderer. It never works when someone has made up their mind to take security over truth.

It's worse...he's a USSD persona. Cute, yeah?

sun dragon
08-14-2007, 04:11 PM
I am new to this forum and to the MA world in general but my experience with USSD has been very different from what I see posted on here. My wife is a 1st dan in TKD and has been looking to train in a different art with a great teacher for a few years now. As a matter of fact at least 50% of the students in our class have achieved black belt status in other arts. I state this fact because I followed the recommendations of more experienced students before signing up for this style. I have now trained for almost 1 1/2 years and am now a green belt. I also volunteer for the instructor's class and assist during the children's classes. I do not have to pay anything for the instructor's class and there is not one red belt who ever taught an adult class, period. We do not teach the children's class either, we only take them through warm-ups and never without the chief instructor present. For my wife and I to take classes it is under $200.00 and my son is allowed to take classes for free as long as he maintains a certain GPA. Our school is run by a husband and wife and they are a 2nd dan and 3rd dan respectively and both close to testing for the next rank. I personally think they are great teachers and overall it is a good system. But I also know that my experience is limited so I trust in the judgments of fellow students who have trained in all different styles and for many years. I also admit having little knowledge of how it is run on the west coast as we are the only school in Pennsylvania and have no contact with them. I understand and respect some of the gripes on here concerning the shaolin connection but to completely bash an entire system it's teachers, and students is just plain ridiculous. I know I have been taught to show respect to all students and styles whether I agree or not and I try my best to follow that way. If any of you are ever in or near Pittsburgh please stop by and visit our school, we probably won't change your mind but we will make you feel at home.


Much Respect


It seems like you have a good deal there. What kind of plan are you on? Is it all groups?
Do you get privates for $200 a month? The ussd schools on the west coast are very expensive.
$225 A month. Your a green belt and you like their system thats good for you. But I wouldn't throw stones at SenseiShellie. She's been studying shaolin kempo for over 20 years.
Also ussd is not the best place in my opinion to study at. The art is ok for a beginner but before you say how great your school is you should check out some other schools first.
Also your instructor's lie about where they came from. They came from Fred Villari www.villaristudios.com I have yet to see one shaolin form in the whole system.
The pinons and katas you are learning are not shaolin!!!
So do me a favor Harley and ask your instructor what form or DM is shaolin?
I think you'll be surprised at his answer

P.S.I would be very wary of people that lie to me and also take my money

sun dragon
08-14-2007, 04:27 PM
Here's some Villari schools in Pennsylvania.
If your going to train in villari kempo you should learn it from the source.

http://villarispennsylvania.com/contact.htm

Villari's of Chalfont
4275 County Line Road
Chalfont, PA 18914

(215) 997-2222

Villari's of Dresher
1400 Twining Road
Dresher, PA 19025

215-200-0600

Villari's of Elverson
2661 Ridge Rd
Elverson, PA 19520

(610) 286-7878

Villari's of Horsham
4275 County Line Road
Horsham, PA 18914

(215) 441-0504

Villari's of Mechanicsburg
4930 Carlisle Pike
Mechanicsburg, PA 17050

(717) 975-2111

Villari's of Ivyland
36D Vincent Circle
Ivyland, PA 18974

(215) 675-7747

http://www.villarispa.com/

If you look on the Villaris web site www.villaristudios.com you will see Mattera and Damasco will never be able to open a whole bunch of schools on the east coast because Villari has over a hundred there.

Wait tell that $15,000 instructors teaching fee hits you.:D

You just be singing praises about ussd.:eek:

Harley_man67
08-14-2007, 04:55 PM
It seems like you have a good deal there. What kind of plan are you on? Is it all groups?
Do you get privates for $200 a month? The ussd schools on the west coast are very expensive.
$225 A month. Your a green belt and you like their system thats good for you. But I wouldn't throw stones at SenseiShellie. She's been studying shaolin kempo for over 20 years.
Also ussd is not the best place in my opinion to study at. The art is ok for a beginner but before you say how great your school is you should check out some other schools first.
Also your instructor's lie about where they came from. They came from Fred Villari www.villaristudios.com I have yet to see one shaolin form in the whole system.
The pinons and katas you are learning are not shaolin!!!
So do me a favor Harley and ask your instructor what form or DM is shaolin?
I think you'll be surprised at his answer

P.S.I would be very wary of people that lie to me and also take my money


I am definitely not trying to throw stones at anyone nor spark even more controversy. If you go back and read the posts about USSD they are pretty much the same. First the complaints started about the business end and not making enough money then it went to the lineage. If these people were so concerned about lineage why let yourself go that far in the system and open your own school knowing it was a lie? In my first post I already proved that we do things differently here at our school with no contracts, low fees, no red belt instructor fees, etc...plus the fact that my son can take classes for free as part of a scholarship program we have. Obviously the east and west coasts differ greatly and I am grateful for the way it is here. Our sensei's have a different style of teaching than what I have read here and it's alot of fun so i will enjoy it. To answer your other questions:My wife and I get 2 classes a week for under $200 a month and my son goes free as I described. Private lessons are separate but we are a smaller school so some classes are 6 or less which is like a semi-private class. There is no cost to take the instructor's class, which is a 2 year program I believe, and there are no contracts. I don't dispute that it is Villari's system and that the forms at this level are not shaolin because I researched it all on the web.
However, I have seen from the higher ranking belts that there is alot more of the shaolin being introduced into our sytem here and when I asked about it I was told that Grandmaster Demasco is bringing more of it into what we do here. Hopefully he will start changing the system around and living up to the lineage it claims. Thank you for the insights and comments.

Much Respect,

Harley_man67
08-14-2007, 05:00 PM
Here's some Villari schools in Pennsylvania.
If your going to train in villari kempo you should learn it from the source.

http://villarispennsylvania.com/contact.htm

Villari's of Chalfont
4275 County Line Road
Chalfont, PA 18914

(215) 997-2222

Villari's of Dresher
1400 Twining Road
Dresher, PA 19025

215-200-0600

Villari's of Elverson
2661 Ridge Rd
Elverson, PA 19520

(610) 286-7878

Villari's of Horsham
4275 County Line Road
Horsham, PA 18914

(215) 441-0504

Villari's of Mechanicsburg
4930 Carlisle Pike
Mechanicsburg, PA 17050

(717) 975-2111

Villari's of Ivyland
36D Vincent Circle
Ivyland, PA 18974

(215) 675-7747

http://www.villarispa.com/

If you look on the Villaris web site www.villaristudios.com you will see Mattera and Damasco will never be able to open a whole bunch of schools on the east coast because Villari has over a hundred there.

Wait tell that $15,000 instructors teaching fee hits you.:D

You just be singing praises about ussd.:eek:


There is no fee for instructors class here. You really should read more thoroughly. As for testing my skills against other styles, it really is unwise to underestimate someone without knowing them better. I may not have extensive MA experience but I have fought all of my life and served as a combat marine so I can handle myself rather well thank you. Lastly, all of those schools are over 5 hours or more from where I am. Thank you for the input.

Much Respect

SenseiShellie
08-14-2007, 05:01 PM
I am definitely not trying to throw stones at anyone nor spark even more controversy. If you go back and read the posts about USSD they are pretty much the same. First the complaints started about the business end and not making enough money then it went to the lineage. If these people were so concerned about lineage why let yourself go that far in the system and open your own school knowing it was a lie? In my first post I already proved that we do things differently here at our school with no contracts, low fees, no red belt instructor fees, etc...plus the fact that my son can take classes for free as part of a scholarship program we have. Obviously the east and west coasts differ greatly and I am grateful for the way it is here. Our sensei's have a different style of teaching than what I have read here and it's alot of fun so i will enjoy it. To answer your other questions:My wife and I get 2 classes a week for under $200 a month and my son goes free as I described. Private lessons are separate but we are a smaller school so some classes are 6 or less which is like a semi-private class. There is no cost to take the instructor's class, which is a 2 year program I believe, and there are no contracts. I don't dispute that it is Villari's system and that the forms at this level are not shaolin because I researched it all on the web.
However, I have seen from the higher ranking belts that there is alot more of the shaolin being introduced into our sytem here and when I asked about it I was told that Grandmaster Demasco is bringing more of it into what we do here. Hopefully he will start changing the system around and living up to the lineage it claims. Thank you for the insights and comments.

Much Respect,

That explains a lot. You're not a standardized school. Wait till Mattera finds out. He's never happy when Steve DeMasco starts doing stuff on his own. Call any school on the west coast and ask them about what happened when GM DeMasco sent him an east coast USSD shirt. That shirt was shot with a shotgun if I remember correctly. Ask your instructor why Steve DeMasco lost 20 schools in CT in what seemed like a weekend...ask him why all the Long Island schools left USSD. It has a lot more to do with DeMasco than you would think.

NJM
08-14-2007, 05:06 PM
Call any school on the west coast and ask them about what happened when GM DeMasco sent him an east coast USSD shirt. That shirt was shot with a shotgun if I remember correctly.

You're ****ting me.

SenseiShellie
08-14-2007, 05:09 PM
You're ****ting me.

Nope. He shows the shirt upon request.

Harley_man67
08-14-2007, 05:13 PM
[QUOTE=SenseiShellie;787278]You don't know me. I only speak about what happened to me so that way to save others from the same fate. I have found peace. I've found teachers and arts that I love to train in...with instructors that are good and honest people. Not instructors that only want to milk you for money. You'll find that out soon enough. Don't worry though, you like the style. Your school isn't charging standardized rates...they will get fined. If you and your wife train for only $200 a month combined, then that's going against the standardized rates. That's a $150 fine per student, if I remember correctly. Hopefully you're not on ABC billing. That's the only way headquarters will find out. That's only being done to compete with the Fred Villari schools in Penn. anyway. Watch your rates go up soon. Oh wait...have you started the academy? That'll be fun! Watch more money disappear. That's how it works. Just being blunt. I'm not bitter anymore. I have better things to do.

I apologize if I disrespected you, it was not my intention. All I am telling you is that we do things differently and in a much better fashion. There are none of the fees you describe and there are no contracts, we pay as we go. There are also no Villari schools within a reasonable distance so no competition as you stated. I am sorry for your bad experience but not all schools are the same and not everyone associated with USSD is corrupt and ignorant. The people I train from have extremely successful careers and teach because they love it, not for the money, and it shows. Thank you for your response and input.

Much Respect

sun dragon
08-14-2007, 05:18 PM
Nope. He shows the shirt upon request.


They also brag about schools that break away from and what they do to them.

PM I will tell you all.

SenseiShellie
08-14-2007, 05:24 PM
[QUOTE=SenseiShellie;787278]You don't know me. I only speak about what happened to me so that way to save others from the same fate. I have found peace. I've found teachers and arts that I love to train in...with instructors that are good and honest people. Not instructors that only want to milk you for money. You'll find that out soon enough. Don't worry though, you like the style. Your school isn't charging standardized rates...they will get fined. If you and your wife train for only $200 a month combined, then that's going against the standardized rates. That's a $150 fine per student, if I remember correctly. Hopefully you're not on ABC billing. That's the only way headquarters will find out. That's only being done to compete with the Fred Villari schools in Penn. anyway. Watch your rates go up soon. Oh wait...have you started the academy? That'll be fun! Watch more money disappear. That's how it works. Just being blunt. I'm not bitter anymore. I have better things to do.

I apologize if I disrespected you, it was not my intention. All I am telling you is that we do things differently and in a much better fashion. There are none of the fees you describe and there are no contracts, we pay as we go. There are also no Villari schools within a reasonable distance so no competition as you stated. I am sorry for your bad experience but not all schools are the same and not everyone associated with USSD is corrupt and ignorant. The people I train from have extremely successful careers and teach because they love it, not for the money, and it shows. Thank you for your response and input.

Much Respect

Like I said, you are not a standardized school. Your school and New Hampshire might be the same, but the rest of the EC schools are just like the WC. CT is run by Joe Moscatelli. He's a former WC guy and runs his schools like the way they do out here. You can't speak for all the schools and I realize that. However, just be careful. That's all I can say. Your apology is accepted. BTW, I switched to USSD because I was promised to be happy teaching for them. I will be happy doing what I plan to do because I learned one thing from USSD...not to hurt others.

SenseiShellie
08-14-2007, 05:25 PM
They also brag about schools that break away from and what they do to them.

PM I will tell you all.

Yes they do! It's horrible the gossip that goes thru the system.

sun dragon
08-14-2007, 05:57 PM
Yes they do! It's horrible the gossip that goes thru the system.

The gossip is real bad but bar's and fist hurt worst of all in my opinion.

NJM
08-15-2007, 11:14 AM
Good news! the Shaolin Kempo Karate wikipedia page has been permanently destroyed by my user coalition. We've been working on this for the past few weeks. The tinest victories can feel like the best sometimes.

sun dragon
08-15-2007, 03:52 PM
Good news! the Shaolin Kempo Karate wikipedia page has been permanently destroyed by my user coalition. We've been working on this for the past few weeks. The tinest victories can feel like the best sometimes.

Good job!:):):):):):):):):):


If anyone deserves a medal it's you. Hey have you gone into their schools over there and ask the instructor what style they teach? When he says shaolin kempo ask him northern or southern style.
He will look at you like a deer in headlights and try to change the subject. If you do this right before their adult class they can over hear the conversation too and start to question what they are really learning. If they say they train with the monks say but do you teach that in your school because your pinions and katas are not shaolin forms. If he says yeah say prove it. He wont he'll just walk away probably to cry or poop his pants or something IMHO.:p

sk girl
11-17-2007, 01:44 PM
I apologize if I disrespected you, it was not my intention. All I am telling you is that we do things differently and in a much better fashion. There are none of the fees you describe and there are no contracts, we pay as we go. There are also no Villari schools within a reasonable distance so no competition as you stated. I am sorry for your bad experience but not all schools are the same and not everyone associated with USSD is corrupt and ignorant. The people I train from have extremely successful careers and teach because they love it, not for the money, and it shows. Thank you for your response and input.

Much Respect[/QUOTE]

Yeah I think everyone at ussd is corrupt a.s.s.h.o.l.e.

They lie about what they teach and that you can make money working for them.
Ussd makes money you starve. Run away from ussd as fast as you can pal.

ktkungfu
11-02-2008, 10:17 AM
I apologize if I disrespected you, it was not my intention. All I am telling you is that we do things differently and in a much better fashion. There are none of the fees you describe and there are no contracts, we pay as we go. There are also no Villari schools within a reasonable distance so no competition as you stated. I am sorry for your bad experience but not all schools are the same and not everyone associated with USSD is corrupt and ignorant. The people I train from have extremely successful careers and teach because they love it, not for the money, and it shows. Thank you for your response and input.

Much Respect

Yeah I think everyone at ussd is corrupt a.s.s.h.o.l.e.

They lie about what they teach and that you can make money working for them.
Ussd makes money you starve. Run away from ussd as fast as you can pal.[/QUOTE]

I worked for these scumbags for a while! The training was half a$$ed When I first joined it was fun the workouts were long and productive and lots of sparing!

As time went on one workouts were once a week for an hour and steal your soul rb would have us do two hour sales crap instead of workout and yet he couldn't figure out why people kept leaving and were not happy:confused:

After you did leave he just said they didn't follow ussd's program, they were stealing. If they were stealing they learned from the best RB!

If they were stealing why didn't he ever press charges?

twistingcrane
11-02-2008, 10:28 AM
USSD is a great studio and system to train at.

ktkungfu
11-02-2008, 10:55 AM
USSD is a great studio and system to train at.

After reading all this you still think there great?

What the F@#$% is wrong with you?:confused:

After all the illegal stuff ussd does you still think its great?

SenseiShellie
02-01-2011, 07:01 PM
so, since the other ussd thread got locked down...can we maybe discus like...i don't know, the actual system? maybe we could actually discuss techniques and forms, and maybe applications (and USSD drama can magically jump in once in a while.)

twistingcrane
02-01-2011, 11:59 PM
yeah that sounds good but I give it 2 weeks before they start talking about porn lol.

well you're up then. Give us something to talk about!

SenseiShellie
02-02-2011, 12:26 AM
yeah that sounds good but I give it 2 weeks before they start talking about porn lol.

well you're up then. Give us something to talk about!

Lol! Ok...how about let's discuss Han suki? What do you think is happening in the opening striking sequence?

GeneChing
02-02-2011, 11:05 AM
It'd beat eating granola and singing kumbayah (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59651)...

TenTigers
02-02-2011, 12:25 PM
Lol! Ok...how about let's discuss Han suki? What do you think is happening in the opening striking sequence?
Joseph Robelo "KenpoJoe" has a video on this form. He seems to have the most information of SKK history.
Apparently, Villari did not create this form, check out his video on youtube-put in Hansuki.
(I will say this however, he does not really seem to know much about other traditional systems. Pinans did not come from Goju, and stepping with the right foot does not indicate Chinese origins)

SenseiShellie
02-02-2011, 03:28 PM
Joseph Robelo "KenpoJoe" has a video on this form. He seems to have the most information of SKK history.
Apparently, Villari did not create this form, check out his video on youtube-put in Hansuki.
(I will say this however, he does not really seem to know much about other traditional systems. Pinans did not come from Goju, and stepping with the right foot does not indicate Chinese origins)

yeah...i'm a little skeptical about his knowledge. Han Suki is an actual form. Other styles of Ken(m)po have it. That's why I was thinking of starting with that form and analyzing it a bit...

TenTigers
02-02-2011, 04:34 PM
there is an entire thread on Hansuki, including its origins from William Chow, to William Chun, to Nick Cerio, to Nick's brother who taught Villari



http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38945

twistingcrane
02-02-2011, 08:38 PM
Lol! Ok...how about let's discuss Han suki? What do you think is happening in the opening striking sequence?

I'm going to have to admit that other than performing it poorly, I have a limited understanding of this form.

SenseiShellie
02-03-2011, 01:07 AM
I'm going to have to admit that other than performing it poorly, I have a limited understanding of this form.

Well...let's break it down! What do you think is happening with the first strike sequence? I know kenpo Joe has an explanation...but let's see what we come up with! I think that we are grabbing them by the shirt and pulling them in to a back 2 knuckle to the bladder. With the stun shock, we can then do the back 2 knuckle punch to the face (villari doesn't do the han suki strike), inverted hammer to the ribs (left hand) , etc.

TenTigers
02-03-2011, 10:05 AM
when looking at applications to moves in form/kata, we need to understand that every movement (at least in a traditional form) has four elements:
Da (striking)
Tehk (kicking/leg manuvers-which also include sweeping, locking)
Suht (throw/takedown)
Na (joint manipulation)
Look at the movement and then ask, how would I use this against a grab, strike, anti-grappling, etc? Also, bear in mind, that not all movements are defensive in nature and may be an offensive attack. Also, some movements in forms are used to open up meridians, tonify the immune system, and might not have any Martial applications.
You should be able to find several applications to each move.
They may not be the applications that the creator of the form had intended, but it will open your mind to understanding form, and application, and be able to look at your art as well as other arts with a more discernable eye.

Kevin73
02-04-2011, 07:11 AM
Here is the roots of Shaolin Kempo as it happened in the early days. Much has been changed and altered for marketing purposes.

John Leoning was a BB under William Chow in Hawaii, he later started studying Kajukenbo with Sijo Emperado. Sonny Gascon and Leoning both moved to the west coast. Gascon studied with Leoning and they started to alter the Kajukenbo that they had learned.

In 1961, due to politics, Gascon dropped the name of Kajukenbo and started calling what he was doing "Karazenpo Goshinjutsu". At the time the material included 5 Kata and around 20 combinations (1-13, 22, and 26) which were based on the Kajukenbo Pinans (later called Palamas) and the Kajukenbo punch defenses.

In 1963, George Pesare opened up a school on the east coast after training with Gascon. Pesare added Kata 6 to the system and also Statue of the Crane, which was an alteration of the Okinawan form "Rohai".

1963, was also the same year that Nick Cerio started to train with Pesare. In 1966, Cerio broke away from Pesare and started his own thing. Cerio added Pinans 1,3,4,5 which were adapted from Kyokushin's Pinans. Pinan 2, was a Nick Cerio creation. Cerio also added a version of Hansuki, which he had learned from Bill Chun Sr. At some point, Cerio went to Hawaii and trained with Prof. Chow (there is disagreement about how much training and for how long, also the rank was supposedly issued for Cerio's own brand of kenpo and NOT Prof. Chow's kenpo). Cerio also completed the 26 combinations with what he learned from Chow.

In 1967, Fred Villari started to learn under Nick Cerio and got up to 2nd degree BB. In 1971, Villari left Cerio and opened up his own school. By 1975, Villari had added combinations 27-50 (27-39 were created together with Nick Cerio) and the addition of the Swift Tigers (Circle of the Panther from Cerio) and Parker's Two Man Set along with other "kung fu forms". In the 80's Villari created the remaining combinations (51-108--matching the Shaolin concept of 108 movements) and some more kung fu forms.

So really, up until BB level in SKK, it is just the material of Karazenpo Goshinjutsu. No one knows for sure where the "kung fu" was pulled from. Villari was a business man and sold many franchises for alot of money and proliferated the east coast with his schools. The base material is good and solid, it is just the instructor who teaches it on the quality of what you learned. There was an old BB magazine article that actually compared Villari with McDonalds's because that was his goal, to put up many schools and make it accessible to a wide audience.

If you talk with people who knew Villari back in the day, they would tell you how tough the training was and how effective it was (still had that Kajukenbo mentality) and how when he started to open up more and more schools the training was REALLY toned down to make it alot more marketable to a wider audience.

TenTigers
02-04-2011, 10:21 AM
please stop calling it,"Kung-Fu."
If you do a made-up form based on pinan kata and add mawashi uke and claw hands, it does not make it Kung-Fu, any more than putting duck sauce on chicken fingers makes it Chinese cuisine.

Shaolin
02-04-2011, 11:01 AM
Please stop calling it "kung fu", the correct term is Shaolin Wushu, or Shaolin Chaun Fa.

TenTigers
02-04-2011, 11:16 AM
Please stop calling it "kung fu", the correct term is Shaolin Wushu, or Shaolin Chaun Fa.
Yes and no. Wu-Shu is the direct literal tranlsation of Martial Art, but Chinese Martial Arts, and thinking are not so cut and dry. "Kung-Fu" is an accepted term used by Chinese in mainland China, Hong Kong, and the rest of the world, because it encompasses all that makes up good Martial Arts technique-hard work, dedication,time, man's effort, etc. One term decribes an entire concept, like a many petaled lotus. But yeah, the dictionary term is wu-shu, or mo-suht in Cantonese.
I've met and trained with many Chinese teachers. All of them used the term, "Kung-Fu," none of them used wu-shu, ch'uan-fa, mo-suht, etc.
Actually, the only people I have ever heard use those terms were non-Chinese.

sean_stonehart
02-04-2011, 11:26 AM
Please stop calling it "kung fu", the correct term is Shaolin Wushu, or Shaolin Chaun Fa.

So you'll be changing your website contents when??

Kevin73
02-04-2011, 01:11 PM
please stop calling it,"Kung-Fu."
If you do a made-up form based on pinan kata and add mawashi uke and claw hands, it does not make it Kung-Fu, any more than putting duck sauce on chicken fingers makes it Chinese cuisine.

Thus, why I used the term in quotes and not as the literal meaning of it. The implication was that even though it is being called kung fu, no one knows where it actually came from and was probably made up by Villari.

It was also to show where all of the material came from. It can all be traced through teachers and styles until the "kung fu" part, then it devolves into a weird story of where it was learned with no style or instructor that anyone knows about.

Shaolin
02-04-2011, 03:50 PM
So you'll be changing your website contents when??

Webmaster is currently building a new site. I've always hated the term kung fu but my partners out voted me. They're now realizing how a simple term will limit clientele.

sean_stonehart
02-04-2011, 04:09 PM
Webmaster is currently building a new site. I've always hated the term kung fu but my partners out voted me. They're now realizing how a simple term will limit clientele.

Eh... wushu pretty much notates PRC based performance oriented material nowadays.

To parrot TenTigers I never heard wushu when I was in China (mainland), San Fran or locally. From native speakers...

The ONLY time I hear "Chuan Fa" is from the Ken(m)po crowd.

Shaolin
02-04-2011, 08:32 PM
I agree, that's why we're trying to get away from styles and just call it martial arts.

SenseiShellie
02-05-2011, 11:15 AM
Alright...I was actually trying to discuss actual forms and techniques...you know, trying not to fuel fires for once. Guess that didn't work. Oh well. I'll just try my discussion elsewhere.

TenTigers
02-05-2011, 03:39 PM
what exactly does Han suki mean? What language, dialect is it? Do you have the hanzi/kanji for it?

Kevin73
02-05-2011, 04:26 PM
what exactly does Han suki mean? What language, dialect is it? Do you have the hanzi/kanji for it?

Good question, I have heard one person say that it translates to "small opening" talking about how the form creates larger openings in an opponents guard.

To be honest, if the name came from Prof. Chow, it may not have a literal meaning. Prof. Chow called his system "Kara-Ho", which he got in a dream, but karaho is a slang term in spanish for something derogatory.

ktkungfu
02-06-2011, 02:34 PM
Good question, I have heard one person say that it translates to "small opening" talking about how the form creates larger openings in an opponents guard.

To be honest, if the name came from Prof. Chow, it may not have a literal meaning. Prof. Chow called his system "Kara-Ho", which he got in a dream, but karaho is a slang term in spanish for something derogatory.

Dont know what it means but one of the few cool forms in villaris shaolin kempo.

ktkungfu
02-06-2011, 02:38 PM
Anyone know if Z or ussd has added any real shaolin forms to their system?

TenTigers
02-06-2011, 08:56 PM
where would they find it...?:rolleyes: