William Cheung's ANTI-CLF Tactics

[Violent Designs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XST1dFXoGOI&tracker=False&NR=1

Discuss

[Violent Designs]

His student (I have met the man before, nice guy, but no he doesn't know CLF at all) was demonstrating everything with.... well, the wrong way, but even besides that, let's look at some generic things.

It's ALL done with a **** stance, static body, and more so an OPEN body that's basically saying "hey, please counter-attack me because what I'm doing is retarded."

I don't want to say oh this or that is sh1t, but well, how can we put it any other way? There is nothing wrong with trying to figure out how to deal with a CLF guy but this stuff is not gonna work!!!!

[extrajoseph]

William Cheung's wife Trudi does CLF, so guess who'll win in the long run! :D

Guys, it is all done for commerce, demos are different to street fights, William knows what CLF can do in the hands of a good practitioner.

[LoneTiger108]

With respect to the ageing William Cheung, even the Wing Chun level is pretty low imho. :o

[extrajoseph]

In that case Freddy shouldn't have any trouble with Bill. :D:eek:

[B-Rad]

William Cheung's wife Trudi does CLF, so guess who'll win in the long run! :D

Guys, it is all done for commerce, demos are different to street fights, William knows what CLF can do in the hands of a good practitioner.

So? If he's going to put out crap online videos with strategies he knows won't work as advertising, then he deserves to be trash talked. If he is interested in showing people that he knows what he's doing, then he shouldn't release videos like this.

[extrajoseph]

Go ahead, trash him, if it makes you feel good.:cool:

[B-Rad]

It doesn't, just pointing out silly your argument is. I'd prefer to see something good over something bad any day of the week, lol. Apparently you think intentionally putting out bad information is good for business and is an acceptable method of advertising. And this one seems deliberately insulting to CLF people by intentionally misrepresenting their style.

[CFT]

Apparently you think intentionally putting out bad information is good for business and is an acceptable method of advertising. And this one seems deliberately insulting to CLF people by intentionally misrepresenting their style.Surely this only affects gullible WCK people at the end of the day? Anyone who buys into will just train for failure when they meet with CLF, MT people in real life.

[lkfmdc]

That was just plain horrible :eek:

[Dr.Rob]

" Wait okay now. Not like this like that. Stop. Again. Okay slower. Wait. Swing your arm up. Wait."

This is very poor presentation of a lot of things. But, upon reflection. He has run out of any possible good material that he can salvage from his Wing Chun. So he now has to bring other systems to support his income.

How about Wing Chun vs Ving Tsun or Wing Chun vs a 50 cal.?

Best Wishes.

I am also glad that after years of marriage he could not convince his wife to change or adopt systems. That is very bad for business. But, then again. With all of the skills that Leung Ting amassed he eneded up in the HK paper smacking the crap out of his girlfriend or wife? I am not sure if my memory services correctly.

Wing Chun is a great sysytem of self defense and great for close hands. But it is not good in everyones hands. Like everything else in the world.

[David Jamieson]

hahahahaha, very entertaining.

Can this guy not make a bad video? I mean really. :p

First video I saw of him was an old SLT demo. It was awful and it looked as if he was chewing on aspirins with a mouth full of lemon juice.

Then came the Emin B tape where they had a shoe mishap and got all slippy. Highly dubious video from both views.

Then this. WTF Is this crap this guy keeps chugging out and who the heck is giving it buy in? How is it even possible that people find this to be reasonable?

anyway... :p Hilarity abounds with this dude. :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

I am also glad that after years of marriage he could not convince his wife to change or adopt systems.

right! can you imagine his friends teasing him about the whooping from his wife he'd get? LMAO......

[LoneTiger108]

I personally think that if you're going to demonstrate in your senior years, then demonstrate something else! How many younger generations has this guy produced? Surely there are some who can do a better job??

In his defense, I've never liked the productions from BlackBelt/Budo magazines as they seem to be rushed and maybe filmed by people who do not know the subject matter. Recipe for disaster if you ask me.

[David Jamieson]

*snip* How many younger generations has this guy produced? Surely there are some who can do a better job??

*snip*

You tell me. lol

Are there any Cheung students who have gone on to become fighters? Teachers with fighters? Anything at all?

askin...

[CFT]

Are there any Cheung students who have gone on to become fighters? Teachers with fighters? Anything at all?Google Rick Spain.

[Phil Redmond]

You tell me. lol

Are there any Cheung students who have gone on to become fighters? Teachers with fighters? Anything at all?

askin...
I was a full contact fighter back in the day and we have students who fight today. Keith Mazza is also a fighter.

[Frost]

I was a full contact fighter back in the day and we have students who fight today. Keith Mazza is also a fighter.

hi phil was your fights before or after you started with william cheung?

[Frost]

good god just watched the clip :eek:

ive done a little CLF and i would love to see him block full power shots like that....as for the uppercuts....:eek:

[sihing]

I think William should adapt a low profile, do seminars and stop making videos. He's already a millionaire (should be anyways), why do more damage to his image?

Keith M could probably fight without any sort of MA training, what is he 6'2" 250lbs mininum?? Plus he's Italian, that's enough:)

J

[sihing]

good god just watched the clip :eek:

ive done a little CLF and i would love to see him block full power shots like that....as for the uppercuts....:eek:

He wouldn't be able to block those punches either, but the sheep that follow him believe every word that comes out of his mouth, he is the "Master's Master" you know:eek:

[goju]

does anyone have any CLf sparring/fight clips that shows those looping swings in action?

so far the better clf videos ive seen just look like Sand da

[Frost]

does anyone have any CLf sparring/fight clips that shows those looping swings in action?

so far the better clf videos ive seen just look like Sand da

alot of the CLF sanda clips show spinning backfist strikes and overhands, which is what sowchoys look like with gloves on lol

[Frost]

well people say CLF looks like kickboxing with overhands and wider hooks.........personally that sounds like a good thing lol

[TenTigers]

well people say CLF looks like kickboxing with overhands and wider hooks.........personally that sounds like a good thing lol
charp and ping choy can look like jab and crosses,
cup choy,sow choy and so choy can look like overhands and wider hooks
gwa choy, well, looks like gwa choy...
so CLF, Hung-Ga can look like kickboxing, but with a different..flavor.
The other thing is in CLF and HG, most fighters will relentlessly attack until they have to be pulled off their opponent. Stick and move isn't really what we like to do, unless faced with a bigger adversary. Then it's crane and leopard mentality-evade, stick and move, THEN attack relentlessly.
(When I mention the animals, it is not in a larper sense, but that there are mental tactics and fighting techniques as sociated with them. You don't have to peck to be using crane, but evade like a matador.It's just the terms we use. Technique is technique)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sterotypical CLF and HK with gloves would look like Tyson or Marciano or Louis.
In the MMA world, Anderson Silva, Fedor and Couture would be good examples.

[Frost]

Sterotypical CLF and HK with gloves would look like Tyson or Marciano or Louis.
In the MMA world, Anderson Silva, Fedor and Couture would be good examples.

not being funny but we dont have to imagine what CLF looks like with gloves on we can see plenty of it in full contact events....the same cant be said for hung gar

[sanjuro_ronin]

not being funny but we dont have to imagine what CLF looks like with gloves on we can see plenty of it in full contact events....the same cant be said for hung gar

Really?
To be honest I never searched for it so...

[Frost]

Really?
To be honest I never searched for it so...

yep lots of sanda full contact clips from clf schools, which does look like kickboxing with more hooks etc

[TenTigers]

hate to admit it, but he's right. There just aren't enough Hung Kuen guys out there doing it. There are a few, and even in the midst of the MMA craze, TCMA schools are growing, so it's a matter of time I suppose.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, like I said I never looked so I don't know, but I just took a look on youtube and put in full contact hung gar and didn't get much at all.
That sucks.
And not in a good way !

[goju]

yeah i love hung gar so always look for stuff on it as far as fighting goes but cant find nada thus far

[David Jamieson]

Hung Kuen isn't for competing, it's for getting it done. lol

[hskwarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArwTqZq4e3c

[hskwarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLhsyyN7T2Q


Fung Yang Sau Kung Fu V's Hung Gar - Full contact Kung Fu - British Championships 1996
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrdy2KyqPYo

[taai gihk yahn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XST1dFXoGOI&tracker=False&NR=1

Discuss

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0aUi9fVfthdbg/340x.jpg


Gia creder nol posso...

[LaterthanNever]

Well..I can say one thing ..


First..a CLF guy wouldn't overextend like that..his stance is too far forward..

Second..I know a fella who was one weapon form away in WC from being able to be calling himself a sifu. He met GM Doc Fai Wong and wouldn't let up about WC is so superior..etc.etc. and so GM Wong goes "ok..show me some WC then"..

All I know is..GM Wong put this guy down on his keister..I think he said he did some moves from the copper wire man set.

The this style vs.t that style is too Junior high school of a mindset for me

[Frost]

Well, like I said I never looked so I don't know, but I just took a look on youtube and put in full contact hung gar and didn't get much at all.
That sucks.
And not in a good way !

it shouldnt worry you because you CAN fight with it and can make it work, but if i was still a hung gar student i would wonder about its current effectiveness if all my sifu could do was say this is how we would look in a full contact fight..........

[Frost]

Well..I can say one thing ..


First..a CLF guy wouldn't overextend like that..his stance is too far forward..

Second..I know a fella who was one weapon form away in WC from being able to be calling himself a sifu. He met GM Doc Fai Wong and wouldn't let up about WC is so superior..etc.etc. and so GM Wong goes "ok..show me some WC then"..

All I know is..GM Wong put this guy down on his keister..I think he said he did some moves from the copper wire man set.

The this style vs.t that style is too Junior high school of a mindset for me

so its too junior high school for you yet your first post on the thread talks about a wing chun v CLF clash :confused:

[TenTigers]

it shouldnt worry you because you CAN fight with it and can make it work, but if i was still a hung gar student i would wonder about its current effectiveness if all my sifu could do was say this is how we would look in a full contact fight..........

not quite sure how you are arriving at this opinion.
???

[LaterthanNever]

Frost,

No less junior high schoolish than your 8 total posts on the subject :rolleyes:

[Violent Designs]

does anyone have any CLf sparring/fight clips that shows those looping swings in action?

so far the better clf videos ive seen just look like Sand da

2:30 fight.

Fight end with sao chui to the face.

Is this William's wife?

http://en-gb.facebook.com/people/Trudi-Cheung/100001134095786

[fan]

CLF vs WC (WC gets the nod)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJA85eeVNvs

CLF vs WC (even)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M-yJ7-FCA0

Traditional CLF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CywiYdRAGGs

[hskwarrior]

the first CLF vs WC video, yeah he got the nod, but its quite clear who really won.

[taai gihk yahn]

Is this William's wife?

http://en-gb.facebook.com/people/Trudi-Cheung/100001134095786

well, she and I have to two mutual FB friends who are both WC guys, so...

[Violent Designs]

how does she put up with his craziness!!!

[Frost]

not quite sure how you are arriving at this opinion.
???
well i cant find any clips of it in sanda or other full contact fighting and i cant find any clubs that take part in sanda so how do i know how they fight or how they should look in action?

Say i want to start CLF, i can search it on line and find plenty of clips of it in action in full contact fighting, i cant find much if any hung gar, so i go to a CLF club and the coach shows me clips of guys fighting full contact from their club or lineage or shows me guys getting ready for their net sanda match, i go to a hung gar club and can i find the same..ie a club with guys that fight full contact or a lineage that can show me its guys in actual fights, if i couldnt and all i could find was people saying what it should look like i for one would start to wonder about it

[Frost]

how does she put up with his craziness!!!

well the millions in his bank probably help

[Frost]

Frost,

No less junior high schoolish than your 8 total posts on the subject :rolleyes:

yep but i didnt claim to be above this stuff :)

[Violent Designs]

I love his counter to Thai Boxing low kick. Check kick with shin (from Muay Thai lol), then move to outside (much harder to pull off in reality), then finish with chain punches and lap sao.

Dude, I swear William Cheung shows the same technique to counter EVERYTHING in those DVD excerpts.... move outside, lap sao, chuan chui....

[taai gihk yahn]

is he serious?!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxUG-tbfIUE&feature=related

[Frost]

I love his counter to Thai Boxing low kick. Check kick with shin (from Muay Thai lol), then move to outside (much harder to pull off in reality), then finish with chain punches and lap sao.

Dude, I swear William Cheung shows the same technique to counter EVERYTHING in those DVD excerpts.... move outside, lap sao, chuan chui....

just for once I’d like the kick to be set up correctly, its one thing to block a soft telegraphed single kick, another to be able to shield a kick set up off a jab cross body hook combo or a double jab and which the Thai guy actually steps across and through and drops his weight into the kick……………as for getting outside a fighter when has that ever been pulled off like in that clip. I swear between these clips and his takedown defence T put up a while ago people should run a mile before training with the guy

[taai gihk yahn]

people should run a mile before training with the guy
That's it! he's trying to indirectly influence people to improve their aerobic capacity! Smart piggy - oink, oink! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klqLYvVgXJo)

[Frost]

That's it! he's trying to indirectly influence people to improve their aerobic capacity! Smart piggy - oink, oink! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klqLYvVgXJo)

It would probably be better for you than learning his self defence stuff :)

[bawang]

he looks like my grandmother

[sanjuro_ronin]

it shouldnt worry you because you CAN fight with it and can make it work, but if i was still a hung gar student i would wonder about its current effectiveness if all my sifu could do was say this is how we would look in a full contact fight..........

My first experience with HK was at the tender age of 8 and I was at that school for about 3 years and even then we fought ( controlled and with gear but still fought) and it tend to look like KB with some sweeps ( or attempts) and so forth.
Most styles when they put on gear will look like KB to one extent or another.
Now I can make me fighting VERY "hung garish" if I choose to, but to be honest, to me Hung Kuen was about hitting hard, hitting often, controlling the opponent and finishing him off.
Tools were semi-irrelevant, outside of certain trade mark moves in HK of course.
When I took it up again in my early 20's it was the same thing really but IF you competed you knew that you have to cater to the rules and that typically meant "kickboxing".
Hung Kuen is a solid core system, it develops power, endurance, strength and speed and keeps things simple and effective.
Sure you can make it flowery and fancy, but that was never me so..
You will NOT find any HK guy "fighting with forms" or looking like a shaw brothers movie.

[Frost]

My first experience with HK was at the tender age of 8 and I was at that school for about 3 years and even then we fought ( controlled and with gear but still fought) and it tend to look like KB with some sweeps ( or attempts) and so forth.
Most styles when they put on gear will look like KB to one extent or another.
Now I can make me fighting VERY "hung garish" if I choose to, but to be honest, to me Hung Kuen was about hitting hard, hitting often, controlling the opponent and finishing him off.
Tools were semi-irrelevant, outside of certain trade mark moves in HK of course.
When I took it up again in my early 20's it was the same thing really but IF you competed you knew that you have to cater to the rules and that typically meant "kickboxing".
Hung Kuen is a solid core system, it develops power, endurance, strength and speed and keeps things simple and effective.
Sure you can make it flowery and fancy, but that was never me so..
You will NOT find any HK guy "fighting with forms" or looking like a shaw brothers movie.

Fair enough and I’m sure its true, the hung gar I did seemed practical strong and forceful but from a students perspective I would still find it a little disconcerting that there is so little hung gar out there showing the guys actually fighting, it’s a but much to argue (like some are (not you but others) that its coming but it will take time) MMA has been around for 2 decades, sanda and san shou much much longer, how long do schools need?

And I understand it’s a personal journey but for me its never been about if my coach is good or can beat me up, its if the style works for a lot of people and works well against other styles, I can see CLF doing this and not hung gar, so I’d be tempted to go the CLF route (or find someone that teaches both as well as bak mei and yung ling……strange I know someone who teaches all those close to me but finding the time to actually get to the school is another matter!)

[sanjuro_ronin]

And I understand it’s a personal journey but for me its never been about if my coach is good or can beat me up, its if the style works for a lot of people and works well against other styles, I can see CLF doing this and not hung gar, so I’d be tempted to go the CLF route (or find someone that teaches both as well as bak mei and yung ling……strange I know someone who teaches all those close to me but finding the time to actually get to the school is another matter!)

It's funny but I have never cared if a coach/teacher could beat me, that is irrelevant to whether he can teach me something to make me better.
Probably something I picked up from boxing.
I have always been conscious of the "gabs" in my MA and have always sought ways to fill them.
My last HK sifu was retired and only had 4 students and his brother, while a few years younger and a SPM guy ( both from Macao), was also older with only a couple of private students.
Truth be said Neither one could have beat me, I am stronger, faster and know how to fight, yet BOTH we able to fill in gaps that I had and both made me a better MA.

I think the view of a system working well VS other systems and with a track record of being effective in full contact fights is a great place to start in the judgment process of any style.
I am not sure if it can be applied across the board though.

[Frost]

It's funny but I have never cared if a coach/teacher could beat me, that is irrelevant to whether he can teach me something to make me better.
Probably something I picked up from boxing.
I have always been conscious of the "gabs" in my MA and have always sought ways to fill them.
My last HK sifu was retired and only had 4 students and his brother, while a few years younger and a SPM guy ( both from Macao), was also older with only a couple of private students.
Truth be said Neither one could have beat me, I am stronger, faster and know how to fight, yet BOTH we able to fill in gaps that I had and both made me a better MA.

I think the view of a system working well VS other systems and with a track record of being effective in full contact fights is a great place to start in the judgment process of any style.
I am not sure if it can be applied across the board though.

You are an honest man Paul, not many would admit that they could beat their but still found merit in what they had to teach you, way too much sifu is great/worship around for my liking (although my coach could kick my backksdie but then he’s younger than me lol)

Looking to fill gaps is a great way to view things, but for me right now figuring out what those gaps are is the tough bit lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are an honest man Paul, not many would admit that they could beat their but still found merit in what they had to teach you, way too much sifu is great/worship around for my liking (although my coach could kick my backksdie but then he’s younger than me lol)

Looking to fill gaps is a great way to view things, but for me right now figuring out what those gaps are is the tough bit lol

AH dude, I would guess that the majority of boxers can beat their coaches but they still have them and learn from them, even more so the world champs.

The whole "invincible sifu" crap is from the movies.
Woo to the teacher that can't train his students well enough so that they can beat him, that makes him one lousy teacher.

[TenTigers]

I've studied under some great teachers and some not-so-great. I try to utilize the teaching techniques of the great ones, avoid the mistakes of the not-so-greats.
I use my own weaknesses as a learning tool to make sure my students don't develop my bad habits. My goal is to have my students surpass me. In essence, I have become(am becoming) the teacher I wish I had.

[taai gihk yahn]

Truth be said Neither one could have beat me, I am stronger, faster and know how to fight, yet BOTH we able to fill in gaps that I had and both made me a better MA.

QFT + The 10,000 Things...

[Hendrik]

CLF vs WC (WC gets the nod)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJA85eeVNvs

CLF vs WC (even)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M-yJ7-FCA0

Traditional CLF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CywiYdRAGGs



Frank and Violent Design,

What do you think?

1,

In my mind, CLF is much powerful then the first two clips.

The third clip is flowery and not that traditional.


2, IMHO, CLF is all about snow balling momentum, if one doesnt have that snow balling momentum then one's CLF is not that good, if one cant jam the momentum of a good CLF player then game is over.

For me 0 to 0.18 is CLF type
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDpcaowUp0g


3, For me, Bill fails to pin point the momentum thus it is a disaster. but then in todays world, not too many gone deeper then mimic move.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've studied under some great teachers and some not-so-great. I try to utilize the teaching techniques of the great ones, avoid the mistakes of the not-so-greats.
I use my own weaknesses as a learning tool to make sure my students don't develop my bad habits. My goal is to have my students surpass me. In essence, I have become(am becoming) the teacher I wish I had.

Well said Bro.

[Phil Redmond]

Sifu Chan Chee Man has a DVD. In the interview he speaks about him being a CLF practitioner and he challenged William Cheung to a fight. The first time he lost but he wanted to try again. He lost the second time as well. He asked William Cheung to take him to Yip Man. Now CCM is a WC Sifu. I've heard two of my WC Sifus talk about Wm. Cheung's fights with CLF guys. So it's not like he hasn't encountered CLF for real.
I'm also familiar with CLF fighters. I know because many of the Triads used CLF.

[Phil Redmond]

hi phil was your fights before or after you started with william cheung?
Only the last two were after I met William Cheung. Including the one with Jonas Nunez. That's why I don't knock other WC lineages. I was doing well in another lineage. I really think it's the individual. There are good and crappy people in all styles.

[Hendrik]

ONE of CLF's methods of approach is "SNOW BALLING" or blitz, or rush, etc. YES. But, CLF is not only about that. we like to work the angles and not just rush forward in a linear path. Sometimes we won't rush in but will just keep our distance and destroy your limbs.



Yup. that is what I mean by snow balling, not linear, but make use of the swing and curvature /spiralling.

In Cho family WCK , we have the Pau, Kup, sou, kua, chad of CLF fuse to WCK to makes set so the momentum is continuous varying from swing, angle, linear.... the whole set "snow ball" from the begining to end.

[Violent Designs]

Frank and Violent Design,

What do you think?

1,

In my mind, CLF is much powerful then the first two clips.

The third clip is flowery and not that traditional.


2, IMHO, CLF is all about snow balling momentum, if one doesnt have that snow balling momentum then one's CLF is not that good, if one cant jam the momentum of a good CLF player then game is over.

For me 0 to 0.18 is CLF type
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDpcaowUp0g


3, For me, Bill fails to pin point the momentum thus it is a disaster. but then in todays world, not too many gone deeper then mimic move.

Hendrik

In our Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut we use that "snow-balling" momentum generation or blitzkrieg attack (I prefer 3-punch combination or 3-punch 1-kick).

"Typical" setup may be like.

First punch is ying sao.
Second punch is the link.
Third punch is to finish.

Each get progressively more strong.

Stopping is more difficult than the video shows because, of the accompanying footwork that is more important than any hand technique.

Torquing of ankle, hip and shoulder also more important than the punch. Punch is just a shape. Everybody can punch, but that is not makes CLF "style."

The video is a mistake because his student throwing the sao chui is not using any footwork. He is only throwing the punch, everyone can do that. For us, the footwork gets there before the punch. The body drive the fist, like a gun shooting a bullet.

步胯肩轉偏身走
標上擊撞拳不收
近擊快重準密透
攻消追打線中求

[Hendrik]

Violent Designs,

Yup.
what you describe is close to what I have learn from Cho family's CLF inheritance. once it rolls it won stop ...


It is crazy to think standing in YJKYM or any static stance and stop those type of things instead of get hit by the momentum and meltdown.

[Violent Designs]

Violent Designs,

Yup.
what you describe is close to what I have learn from Cho family's CLF inheritance. once it rolls it won stop ...


It is crazy to think standing in YJKYM or any static stance and stop those type of things instead of get hit by the momentum and meltdown.

Mind sharing more of Cho Family CLF lineage? I am not familiar...

thank you.

[Hendrik]

Mind sharing more of Cho Family CLF lineage? I am not familiar...

thank you.



Cho family in china was southern fist and CLF practitioners and paticipate in the Taiping revolution and Red boat uprising.


Cho's fighters was defeated by Yik Kam a WCner from the Red boat and start to study WCK. Yik Kam asked the Cho to preserve all the art they have studied, Thus, Cho has later evolve in to a fusion of CLF and WCK type of art even the teaching of Yik Kam WCK is still preserve.

http://www.w1ng.com/the-wing-chun-kuen-of-cho-hung-choy/



In the very core of Yik Kam WCK all are momentum handling. it is not shape but fast momentum handling beyond shape. such as


拳打三節不見形, 四力六方迥旋出,
Strike could be in any of the joints without fix shape/form
four four six directional spinning out

四力= 一,墜力, 二,摩察撐力, 三,運動變速力, 四,肌肉伸缩力.

Four force = droping , friction, speed change at movement, muscle.


I was told Yik Kam defeat the Cho CLF fighers via momentum handling.

[Phil Redmond]

this is true.
I should have mentioned that obviously the Triads used CLF because it's really good against multiple attackers which is a situation you'd encounter in a gang fight. CLF is no joke.

[LaterthanNever]

"I should have mentioned that obviously the Triads used CLF because it's really good against multiple attackers which is a situation you'd encounter in a gang fight. CLF is no joke."

I would like to compliment Sifu Redmond on his professionalism! The kung fu community needs more individuals like this man.

Sure, CLF and WC have a different strategy..but so what? ;)

[Vajramusti]

"I should have mentioned that obviously the Triads used CLF because it's really good against multiple attackers which is a situation you'd encounter in a gang fight. CLF is no joke."

I would like to compliment Sifu Redmond on his professionalism! The kung fu community needs more individuals like this man.

Sure, CLF and WC have a different strategy..but so what? ;)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The comment on Sifu Redmond is true.

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

Thank you both and thank God that I'm not the only one. :)

[Phil Redmond]

First video I saw of him was an old SLT demo. It was awful and it looked as if he was chewing on aspirins with a mouth full of lemon juice.. .

I once did a demo of SLT form at Princeton. Afterwords a Chinese lady said to me, "..nice form but why were you chewing gum?". I proceeded to explain to her that the Du Meridian runs up the back of the body and th Ren Meridian runs up the front. The Du "ends" where the teeth meet the gum. The Ren "ends" at the tip of the tongue. When doing our SLT form we press the tip of the tongue at the point on the middle front of the palate where the teeth and gum meet. While doing this you gather Saliva in your mouth and swallow in big gulps to nourish the Chi/Qi. Of course you know this because it's common knowledge in TCM.

[LaterthanNever]

Is this why Dr. Yang Jwing Ming mentions to bite ones' teeth together ..I believe it's 20 times in chi-gung practice?

Furthermore..is this why some schools of thought in chinese medicine mention to put the tongue in the roof of the mouth while doing chi gung/certain kung fu forms?

[Violent Designs]

Furthermore..is this why some schools of thought in chinese medicine mention to put the tongue in the roof of the mouth while doing chi gung/certain kung fu forms?

I was taught this by my Hung Kuen teacher.

For certain moves and applications.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . It is crazy to think standing in YJKYM or any static stance and stop those type of things instead of get hit by the momentum and meltdown.
You are correct. A static stance against powerful CLF strikes can get your arms battered since some CLF strikes are designed to crash through the bridge of an opponent to get to the body. You must have a moving dynamic stance.

[Phil Redmond]

Is this why Dr. Yang Jwing Ming mentions to bite ones' teeth together ..I believe it's 20 times in chi-gung practice?

Furthermore..is this why some schools of thought in chinese medicine mention to put the tongue in the roof of the mouth while doing chi gung/certain kung fu forms?

Yes, teeth together and tip of tongue pressed against the palate. You also need to gather Saliva then swallow it repeatedly. That's why it looks as if someone is chewing something.

[Hendrik]

I was taught this by my Hung Kuen teacher.

For certain moves and applications.



Tongue to the roof to

1, naturally get the breathing down to lower abs , help breathing regulation naturally
2, connect the Ren Du



#1 is obvious every one will be able to notice it right the way. #2 needs proper Qigong training to make sense out of it.

[Hendrik]

You are correct. A static stance against powerful CLF strikes can get your arms battered since some CLF strikes are designed to crash through the bridge of an opponent to get to the body. You must have a moving dynamic stance.



Most WCner dont have a moving dynamic stance,
Some is using avoiding instead of be able to accept the in coming force,
some is using their body behind their strike to add power for crashing effect or structure breaking.

Thus, these types of training is not that dynamic and cant stand a good boxer attack or a bjj take down. Unless WC go another level up to incoorporate the above and more refinement.

Alone, It is a lower level limited training compare with the CLF which is batterfield proven (1850 -1945) from fighting the Qing in the Taiping side and fighting the Japanese with the broad sword set.

WC people like to boasting the fighting Qing, the truth in the history is there is no WC people fighting Qing in the mass scale. The real one who fight Qing in the mass scale represent the Shao lin is CLF.


Today's WC looks good in the WC movie. Thanks to Hung Gum Bo. In the real life, I am not sure.
WC for me is a almost lost art which is an evolve art today mix with Taiji, Hung Gar, Hsyin yin, Yi Chuan. The internal espect of the WCK is gone. the power generation of true inch power in Leong Jun's era is lost. Those Bruce Lee inch punch are just some kind of gimmic which cant be apply in real life vesus advance player.

Unless we WCner look at ourself honestly, then only then WC has a bright future.

[LaterthanNever]

"You are correct. A static stance against powerful CLF strikes can get your arms battered since some CLF strikes are designed to crash through the bridge of an opponent to get to the body. You must have a moving dynamic stance"

Sifu Redmond,

I don't have an interest in the WC vs. CLF issue especially since I am a mantis practitioner. But are you saying you feel that CLF moves would prove to be problematic to someone who practices WC. Problematic in the sense for the reasons that you have outlined?

Hung Ga is interesting to me since it combines aspects of WC (the Pak Sao in WC you can see in the opening of the Fu-Hok form) as well as aspects of CLF in the 12 bridges/10 killing hands principles.

Actually..given the history of..for lack of a better word..friction between CLF and WC..I never thought I would see the way where a WC man would have something good to say about Chan Heungs' art.

[Hendrik]

Hung Ga is interesting to me since it combines aspects of WC (the Pak Sao in WC you can see in the opening of the Fu-Hok form) as well as aspects of CLF in the 12 bridges/10 killing hands principles.


Hung Ga can have some similarity shape as Pak Sao but those are different stuffs because the power generation is very different and aapplication uniqueness are different.




Actually..given the history of..for lack of a better word..friction between CLF and WC..I never thought I would see the way where a WC man would have something good to say about Chan Heungs' art.

1850 era, the time when real fighting occur against Qing,
CLF and WC both support revolution together they are allies not enermy. CLF people even visited Leung Jan and have some exchange.

so it is matter of how deep one likes to go.



My ancestors in Cho family still keep good contact with CLF even after they learn WCK from Yik Kam the opera actor.

[hskwarrior]

Hendrik, did you see that video i posted? lots of good CLF in there. I also liked the wing chun and the sifu.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, did you see that video i posted? lots of good CLF in there. I also liked the wing chun and the sifu.


Yes, thanks!

These are great stuffs to learn from each others.




The two men set at 12.00 remind me of Cho WCK's two men set which is practicing left right back forth similar to that two men set but using WC technics and cover all the angles including the frontal which WCK in general shows. The set is called Chi Sau play set. Today it is almost totally lost / extinct beside a few people know it.

it is very different then IpMan and YKS chi sau platform type. there are lots of moving and angling and....etc. so it is like a CLF which continuous moving but the technics are all WCK type and way.

The following is a sample of it. start 0.35.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqHE5A4LC80

[Violent Designs]

What do you think of this theories?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD8qor-yJ_A

Thanks

Also is this real Cho Gar Wing Chun?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7exQZ1UeL9w&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMVsWwjcOAQ&feature=related

[sihing]

What do you think of this theories?

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD8qor-yJ_A

Also is this real Cho Gar Wing Chun?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7exQZ1UeL9w&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMVsWwjcOAQ&feature=related

I've trained under Gary at his place in LA, got level 1 in his system. What I appreciate about him the most is his naturallness. You can see in the vid that he's doing VT, but he's not static or fixed. He does like to play a bit too much for my taste, but he likes to work off the 2nd or 3rd timing, as I'm sure he could take most out with one shot, as his power is great. He's got the whole package timing, speed, power, position, and a great amount of experience, plus he's into chin na as well. At times though as a beginner in his system, it was hard to follow him in his curriculum, everyday something was done slightly different, he's very creative, doesnt do things the same way all the time, which can make it hard to learn, but I will say, what you see on is vids/DVD's is the same as what he teaches, and he's very open to questions and hands on teaching.

James

[Violent Designs]

I've trained under Gary at his place in LA, got level 1 in his system. What I appreciate about him the most is his naturallness. You can see in the vid that he's doing VT, but he's not static or fixed. He does like to play a bit too much for my taste, but he likes to work off the 2nd or 3rd timing, as I'm sure he could take most out with one shot, as his power is great. He's got the whole package timing, speed, power, position, and a great amount of experience, plus he's into chin na as well. At times though as a beginner in his system, it was hard to follow him in his curriculum, everyday something was done slightly different, he's very creative, doesnt do things the same way all the time, which can make it hard to learn, but I will say, what you see on is vids/DVD's is the same as what he teaches, and he's very open to questions and hands on teaching.

James

I like most of his video clips, there are small things I disagree with (his explanation of why vertical or "yin" punch was more powerful than horizontal or "yang" punch when I thought his display of the reverse punch was not fully accurate, for example), but overall I am impressed.

[Hendrik]

What do you think of this theories?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD8qor-yJ_A

Thanks

Also is this real Cho Gar Wing Chun?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7exQZ1UeL9w&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMVsWwjcOAQ&feature=related



Gary is doing a great job explaining his art.


These Cho Gar have evolve into more Nam Kuen. Since Cho Gar has evolved for past 150 years, there are lots of different branches.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . Actually..given the history of..for lack of a better word..friction between CLF and WC..I never thought I would see the way where a WC man would have something good to say about Chan Heungs' art.
First of all I wasn't around during the friction between CLF and WC. So it's not my fight. I have friends who do CLF. One is a Sifu. I was taught in the Marine Corps that a warrior should know the weakness as well as the strengths of an opponent. To ignore his strengths could get you killed.
I must make this clear. I'm a "martial artist" who just happens to specialize in WC. I'm not a "WC man". In my first tour in Vietnam we used M14s, my second tour we got M16s. We were also trained to fire AK50s and AK47s. What if your weapon misfired and there was an AK lying right next to you? If you weren't familiar with how to operate it you'd be SOL. The same goes for martial arts. If you stay in you own little box you'll get surprises from out side of the box. So a "martial artist" must be familiar with other systems and have respect for what other systems are capable of.

[TenTigers]

Gary is doing a great job explaining his art.


These Cho Gar have evolve into more Nam Kuen. Since Cho Gar has evolved for past 150 years, there are lots of different branches.
hmm..so are his pak-sau's WCK pak-sau, or Nam Kuen pak-sau?
:D

[Shaolindynasty]

First of all I wasn't around during the friction between CLF and WC. So it's not my fight


This is true for most of us. Any friction between clf and wc is the result of friction between specific practitioners of both methods and not the methods themselves.

[Phil Redmond]

Yes, thanks!

These are great stuffs to learn from each others.




The two men set at 12.00 remind me of Cho WCK's two men set which is practicing left right back forth similar to that two men set but using WC technics and cover all the angles including the frontal which WCK in general shows. The set is called Chi Sau play set. Today it is almost totally lost / extinct beside a few people know it.

it is very different then IpMan and YKS chi sau platform type. there are lots of moving and angling and....etc. so it is like a CLF which continuous moving but the technics are all WCK type and way.

The following is a sample of it. start 0.35.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqHE5A4LC80

Hendrik, Is this the Cho Ga Wing Chun that you do?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMVsWwjcOAQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGBsnNDXKI8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7exQZ1UeL9w&feature=related

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, Is this the Cho Ga Wing Chun that you do?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMVsWwjcOAQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGBsnNDXKI8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7exQZ1UeL9w&feature=related



Phil,

Those are my Cho Gar relatives' practice.

mine is like the following,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKWVOc2HOig

even from the same family but I use a totally different type of jin dna.

[Hendrik]

hmm..so are his pak-sau's WCK pak-sau, or Nam Kuen pak-sau?
:D



Pak sau is a troublesome terminology these days in WCK.

The pak sau such as in Ipman WCK is actually a combination of Kaam sau, pak sau, fok sau in the ancient terminology.


I dont know why is Ipman call it Pak sau when it is so many different things.


Pak sau in ancient definition means slapping like slapping a ball, or to be very specific, ligtht slap. not much force used.


So, if the Pak sau is light like slapping a ball with local powering that is accord to old WCK definition.


So, which specific sau are you asking? Pak sau as in the ancient time or Pak Sau as Ipman's called? if it is the Pak sau as Ipman's called then how can that be nam kuen pak sau for that is so many sau there?

Now, saying that, in Hung gar, do you pak with you whole body or local joints? and does that Pak accord to the style?

[Violent Designs]

Pak sau is a troublesome terminology these days in WCK.

The pak sau such as in Ipman WCK is actually a combination of Kaam sau, pak sau, fok sau in the ancient terminology.


I dont know why is Ipman call it Pak sau when it is so many different things.


Pak sau in ancient definition means slapping like slapping a ball, or to be very specific, ligtht slap. not much force used.


So, if the Pak sau is light like slapping a ball with local powering that is accord to old WCK definition.

Now, saying that, in Hung gar, do you slap with you whole body or local joints?

Hmm, I can't speak for Hung Gar but in CLF pak sao is like light parry, as you described. It is not so much whole body force hard bridge or anything... it's very easy, like in boxing....

[Hendrik]

Hmm, I can't speak for Hung Gar but in CLF pak sao is like light parry, as you described. It is not so much whole body force hard bridge or anything... it's very easy, like in boxing....

Yup. pak sao is light. and purposely not using the whole body structure. as in the ancient definition.

[hskwarrior]

Hmm, I can't speak for Hung Gar but in CLF pak sao is like light parry, as you described. It is not so much whole body force hard bridge or anything... it's very easy, like in boxing....

a good flick of the wrist

[Violent Designs]

Yup. pak sao is light. and purposely not using the whole body structure. as in the ancient definition.

There are more "forceful" or more "redirecting" in application.

Poon sao is more guiding hand.

Garn sao is much more forceful or explosive.

This CLF interpretation, I don't know how helpful it is. But perhaps there is some overlap with WCK techniques or interpretation.

[Hendrik]

There are more "forceful" or more "redirecting" in application.

Poon sao is more guiding hand.

Garn sao is much more forceful or explosive.

This CLF interpretation, I don't know how helpful it is. But perhaps there is some overlap with WCK techniques or interpretation.


Pak sau in WCK is for dissolving in coming power, similar to put a fire cracker bomb in the joints of a big robot or a rokect launcher. a slight shift there the whole operation is totally screwed.

Pak sau is also the Anti-Sun chain punch. it is the high efficient way of destroying sun chain punch.

[TenTigers]

So, if the Pak sau is light like slapping a ball with local powering that is accord to old WCK definition.


So, which specific sau are you asking? Pak sau as in the ancient time or Pak Sau as Ipman's called? if it is the Pak sau as Ipman's called then how can that be nam kuen pak sau for that is so many sau there?

Now, saying that, in Hung gar, do you pak with you whole body or local joints? and does that Pak accord to the style?

All of the above.
In the Ip Man WCK I was exposed to, the Pak Sau can be done with local joints, but there is always connection to body.Otherwise the punch will just blow right through it. Power can be a light slap or a jarring slap. It can guide the strike without much force, utilizing body position to avoid the strike (many just refer to this as wu-sau)
It can redirect, check, or attack. Depends on angle and force utilized.
Our Hung Kuen views it the same way. We don't have just one interpetation, one way, one energy. Hence the term, sup yi kiu sau. Not twelve techniques, but twelve energy methods, which is applied to the bridge-no matter what the technique is.
ex: Pak can be hard, soft, guiding,raising, sinking,suppressing, immobilizing, etc...

[Hendrik]

1, All of the above.


2, In the Ip Man WCK I was exposed to, the Pak Sau can be done with local joints, but there is always connection to body.Otherwise the punch will just blow right through it. Power can be a light slap or a jarring slap. It can guide the strike without much force, utilizing body position to avoid the strike (many just refer to this as wu-sau)
It can redirect, check, or attack. Depends on angle and force utilized.


3, Our Hung Kuen views it the same way. We don't have just one interpetation, one way, one energy. Hence the term, sup yi kiu sau. Not twelve techniques, but twelve energy methods, which is applied to the bridge-no matter what the technique is.
ex: Pak can be hard, soft, guiding,raising, sinking,suppressing, immobilizing, etc...


1, if it is ancient WCK it cant be all of the above. the definition is clear.


2, You are doing Ipman or other stuffs. so is it WCK or Nam kuen? you have to iron it out for yourself.

3, I dont know Hung Kuen, however, in ancient WCK that is not the case, WCK stress on every point has to be crytal clear or Dim Dim Cheng.


This above might sound stric and rigid. however, look at it. Pak is a well define technics. Certainly one can use different technics to make an application sequence. But, the technics or the building blocks has to be clear. other wise, it will get lost.

IMHO,
For example, There is no such thing as Wu sau. "Wu" in reality/ancient time is actually similar to Luu jin the second key of Taijichuan. In Wu/Luu, one can use the under elbow power to snap away the incoming attack if needed while stick and ride on the incoming attack ,but usually, such as Luu one just ride the incoming and mislead it without have to snap away the incoming.

However, today, when people do SLT's WU , one is fix at "after the snap away", so one has this tensing palm retracting or pulling back this tensing palm. That cant snap away power but become a very rigid sustain. it lost the characteristics of Luu as in taiji also lost the snap power. and we start to see some is doing a palm drive forward to call it Wu sau. That is not Wu sau according to the ancient.

Wu sau is " Luu as in taijichuan riding and mislead the incoming, and snap to break away or bounce when needed."


So, if the WCner keep doing these type of things, the art is going to be lost because the agile fine points are loosing or being fuzzy out replace with brute force.


I am pretty rigid when it comes to a discussion like this, not because I cannot accept other opinion. I actually can accept that very well. I am purposely being rigid so that the art is not fuzzy away. my bottom line is if you know what exactly you do that is fine with me. I switch around things too in the real life. however, you must not confuse yourself because when one get fuzzy that is the problem.

similar to the so many Cho Gar clip above, we know things get fuzzy to the point that it is out of the range of WCK, and these days we have a good term to give face to those stuffs ---- oh everyone can interprate things differently.


I personally like CLF alots is because lots of CLF stuffs are well define and well practice instead of every one goes interprate things their way.

[kung fu fighter]

For example, There is no such thing as Wu sau. "Wu" in reality/ancient time is actually similar to Luu jin the second key of Taijichuan. In Wu/Luu, one can use the under elbow power to snap away the incoming attack if needed while stick and ride on the incoming attack ,but usually, such as Luu one just ride the incoming and mislead it without have to snap away the incoming.

However, today, when people do SLT's WU , one is fix at "after the snap away", so one has this tensing palm retracting or pulling back this tensing palm. That cant snap away power but become a very rigid sustain. it lost the characteristics of Luu as in taiji also lost the snap power. and we start to see some is doing a palm drive forward to call it Wu sau. That is not Wu sau according to the ancient.

Wu sau is " Luu as in taijichuan riding and mislead the incoming, and snap to break away or bounce when needed."

So if wu is equivent to Luu in taiji chuan, would you say Bong is equal to Peng in taiji chuan?

Is it possible that wing chun could have been a system that evolved from tai chi, since it share so many of the same principles/concepts. That could be why they both share the same snake and crane origin story. what do you think?

[Hendrik]

So if wu is equivent to Luu in taiji chuan, would you say Bong is equal to Peng in taiji chuan?

Is it possible that wing chun could have been a system that evolved from tai chi, since it share so many of the same principles/concepts. That could be why they both share the same snake and crane origin story. what do you think?



1, nope, Peng jin is in what in general Ipman WCK called Fook Sau. Those are actually misnaming according to the old WCK terminology. That "fook Sau" is called Kung Sau.

So that so called " sam bai fut " in the Ipman WCK or some other wck which consist of the Fook Sau and Wu sau. That is the practice of the Peng and Wu type of frontal jin. it is not as what most think today.


2, Taiji is a different system. "fook and Wu" is not exactly Taiji stuffs. because "fook" involve with White Crane's metal shape hand. So it can be use as press...etc. instead of just peng. I am using the Taiji terminology here is only for the purpose of common language so all could understand what is it.


3, So the practice of SLT's "sam bai fut or the fook and wu cycle is the training for accepting Jin for the frontal while one is extending or contracting while sticking at the opponents and cover a large frontal angle.

it is not what most today practice think as today's "sam bai fut" as striking only. foward projection pressure type of things.



IMHO, those are the practice of sticking and ride on the opponent and one can mislead him or snap bounce him as one likes if needed.


a sample of application among many of the so called Sam bai fut in Cho WCK according to the old two men set.

check out 0.5/1.21 1.01/1.21
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqHE5A4LC80&playnext=1&list=PLF46584247DE61C53

[kung fu fighter]

3, So the practice of SLT's "sam bai fut or the fook and wu cycle is the training for accepting Jin for the frontal while one is extending or contracting while sticking at the opponents. it is not what most today practice think as today's "sam bai fut" as striking only.

IMHO, those are the practice of sticking and ride on the opponent and one can mislead him or snap bounce him as one likes if needed.

I agree with you, but one needs the proper type of power generation in order to do this without exposing himself.

What jins in tai chi would you say wck's bong and tan corrisponds to?

[Hendrik]

I agree with you, but one needs the proper type of power generation in order to do this without exposing himself.


you are right,
that is the name of the game.



you better ask the Taiji guys on bong.

[LaterthanNever]

I'm asking this I guess while on the periphery of Wing Chun. I'm not a sifu and only have a little WC experience. I've read once that Ip Man once said "Never pak sao to the inside gate".

Yet..

I've read and seen examples both in books and videos(when doing applications extracted from the forms) where practitioner #1 who is defending against an attack does a pak sao to the inside gate against practitioner #2 who is attacking.

Please intelligent contributions only (which automatically eliminates certain sifus in the WC forum who feel the need to attack others in an ad homenim way just for asking questions. One sifu is particularly hyper defensive in allowing only one or 2 questions and is fond of calling others "troll" as quick as a hummingbird flies. If you are reading this..then yes..I am talking about YOU).

[Hendrik]

I'm asking this I guess while on the periphery of Wing Chun. I'm not a sifu and only have a little WC experience. I've read once that Ip Man once said "Never pak sao to the inside gate".

Yet..

I've read and seen examples both in books and videos(when doing applications extracted from the forms) where practitioner #1 who is defending against an attack does a pak sao to the inside gate against practitioner #2 who is attacking.

Please intelligent contributions only (which automatically eliminates certain sifus in the WC forum who feel the need to attack others in an ad homenim way just for asking questions. One sifu is particularly hyper defensive in allowing only one or 2 questions and is fond of calling others "troll" as quick as a hummingbird flies. If you are reading this..then yes..I am talking about YOU).


IMHO,
Ip is right to better not use Pak sau at the inner gate because it is less effective at inner gate biomechanics structure.
Usually one uses Jeet sau or intercept hand at the inner gate to disable the punch. Those are different strategy target to totally damage the wrist with one short. Thus, in the old time, my sifu will never want me to hold my hand like in the Ipman movie because the wrist of that outside arm is the target. or in another way, permenently destroy the first gate.

A move in Cho Gar which is very power full to destroy the front hand and center line is ---- in the same time one hand chop intercept the inner wrist of the forward arm ; and one hand deliver a punch to the center line target. and then the intercept arm changes into a horizontal slide down to upward outward punch as the to deliver the second blow to the center line in a horizontal way.

So, it destroy the front hand and vertical strike at the center then 0.5 pace later a horizotal strike comes in from the other direction. so, even in the back arm can block the vertical strike the horizontal strike will land without resistance because one wrist has already damage. Due to the direction of strike is different it is very difficult to fight this in the center door.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1083671]Pak sau is a troublesome terminology these days in WCK.


I dont know why is Ipman call it Pak sau when it is so many different things.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ip Man did not depend on words alone- corrections of motions for key students was the way.

joy chaudhuri

[BDBSK]

Well, it didnt work when my Sifu (Richard Leung) knocked out Cheung in Hong Kong. :p

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-8978.html

[Violent Designs]

Well, it didnt work when my Sifu (Richard Leung) knocked out Cheung in Hong Kong. :p

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-8978.html

This is good to know. ;)

[Ozzy Dave]

So if wu is equivent to Luu in taiji chuan, would you say Bong is equal to Peng in taiji chuan?

Is it possible that wing chun could have been a system that evolved from tai chi, since it share so many of the same principles/concepts. That could be why they both share the same snake and crane origin story. what do you think?

Bong is like Peng in that they are both applied under the opponents arm, they both use the turning of the body to support the shape to redirect force and they both "don't stay".

I don't think that Wing Chun developed from Taijiquan or infact even have a common root, they exhibit similarities merely because they both share a common distance in application.

Dave

[kung fu fighter]

Well, it didnt work when my Sifu (Richard Leung) knocked out Cheung in Hong Kong. :p

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-8978.html

Hi last I heard Richard Leung was living in Richmond Hill, Ontario Canada.

is he still there?

[Phil Redmond]

Well, it didnt work when my Sifu (Richard Leung) knocked out Cheung in Hong Kong. :p

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-8978.html

Well it worked against other CLF people including Chan Chee Man. I've even fought CLF people successfully in NY. If the story is true one knockout means nothing. Many fighters get knocked out but they are still great fighters. There's a saying amonst fighters. Any fighter can have his ass handed to him on any given day.

[hskwarrior]

Any fighter can have his ass handed to him on any given day.

I guess it was Cheung's on that day hahahahaha

[Frost]

since we are talking about the man has anyone seen this before, i found it amazing that all these wing chun guys actually managed to agree enough to write this!


VING TSUN ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION LTD
3, Nullah Rd., 2C/fl., Kowloon,
Hong Kong Tel 3-816044

Dear Sir,

RE: Point Three of the minutes of the 11th General Meeting

Recently we have received many letters and complaints about a person
called William Cheung who has distorted many affairs with ulterior motive.
As the board of directors of the Ving Tsun Athletic Association -- the
general association of the WHOLE Ving Tsun (Wing Tsun / Wing Chun) system,
which was founded by the late Grandmaster Yip Man and most of his senior
students since 1976, we have the responsibility to clarify the following
points:

1/ William Cheung has NEVER been regarded by anyone of his fellow-students
as the grandmaster or the leader of the whole Wing Chun Clan.

2/ NOBODY is recognized as the so-called "No 1 student of Grandmaster
Yip Man" and we have NEVER heard of William Cheung as the "No. 1 Fighter
of the Wing Chun Style".

3/ "Footwork" in the Wing Chun System is regarded as a most advanced
technique. We do not deny that some of the students of Grandmaster
Yip Man did not learn the whole system, but it is NOT TRUE that
William Cheung is the ONLY person to have ever learnt the entire
Wing Chun System" as what he announced in his advertisement.

4/ There have NEVER been any techniques in our system called "DIM-MAK" or
"Disabling Pressure Points", NOR any so-called "Missing Techniques" since
the creation of the Wing Chun System by Ng Mui.

5/ When Grandmaster Yip Man taught the techniques to his students he asked
NO-ONE "to take an oath not to reveal the secret to anyone during his life
time." He taught according to the potential of his students, teaching
the most advanced techniques to the most talented ones.

In the mid of 50's there had been a kid called William Cheung who had studied
in Grandmaster Yip Man's school for a few years intermittently and left
Hong Kong when he was 18 years old, and since then had become isolated from
his instructor and all the other fellow-students. During his short training
he surely gained the wrong impression in thinking that Grandmaster Yip Man
never taught the advanced techniques to students other than himself. And yet
we do not know how much William Cheung really learned himself.

It is regrettable that his lies have gone so far (i.e. he told the
reporters that Grandmaster Yip Man had taught only him the so-called
"traditional Wing Chun", but had taught all his other students the
"modified Wing Chun").

However, any average person could easily analyze his techniques and see
this statement must be a lie. It is unthinkable that Grandmaster Yip Man
would choose to cheat all the students except one impudent kid, who actually
had little respect for him!

We feel sorry to have such an ignorant person in out clan, We want
to establish our position: we have NEVER AGREED with his Crazy
self-promotion, though we do understand his motive in casting himself as the
"Superman" in the William Cheung's Wing Chun System.

Yours faithfully,

The Board Of Directors and Attendance in the meeting of clarification
the distorted affairs.

Wong Shun Leung (Chairman)
Leung Ting (Vice Chairman)
Tong Chao Chi (Vice Chairman)
Lok Yiu (President)
Yip Ching (Vice President)
Ho Kam Ming (Vice President)
Siu Yuk Man (Secretary)
Chan Tak Chiu (Treasurer)
Tsui Sheung Tim (Membership Management)
Koo Sang (Membership Management)
Lee Wai Chi (Public Relation)
Victor Kan (attendance)
Yip Chun (attendance)

[BDBSK]

Well it worked against other CLF people including Chan Chee Man. I've even fought CLF people successfully in NY. If the story is true one knockout means nothing. Many fighters get knocked out but they are still great fighters. There's a saying amonst fighters. Any fighter can have his ass handed to him on any given day.

Totally true. Everyone gets beaten, no big deal. I've lost matches too. Competing and fighting is the main thing. Fighters fight, and fighters win and lose. Cheers

[PalmStriker]

since we are talking about the man has anyone seen this before, i found it amazing that all these wing chun guys actually managed to agree enough to write this! Interesting document, Frost. Thanks for posting.

[Phil Redmond]

Well, it didnt work when my Sifu (Richard Leung) knocked out Cheung in Hong Kong. :p

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-8978.htmlHave you ever competed? If so what was the outcome of your fights? I was trained by kickboxer Yoel Judah who was trained by Mark Breland but I still used Wing Chun in the ring.

[goju]

since we are talking about the man has anyone seen this before, i found it amazing that all these wing chun guys actually managed to agree enough to write this!
not suprising at all given the politics and business in that style many people join together in organizations and bad mouth the others

[Phil Redmond]

William Cheung's response to a letter from the
leading masters of Wing Chun. This version comes from Australasian fighting
Arts
Vol 10 nr 3.


************************************************** ******************


Firstly, I want to point out that the statement by the Ving Tsun Athletic
Association in their letter that the "the association was founded by the
late
grandmaster Yip Man and most of his senior student since 1976" is not true,
because Yip Man died in 1971. So he couldn't have founded the Ving Tsun
Athletic Association in 1976 as claimed.
I shall attempt to answer their letter point by point:
(1) I am the leader of the Traditional Wing Chun because I am the only
person
who inherited the whole Traditional system of Wing Chun. Furthermore, I also
know the modified version thoroughly, and know that it is inferior to the
Traditional system. I therefore proclaim myself the Grandmaster of the
Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu. If anyone does not think so, he can come and
see me and I will be more than too pleased to show him.
(2) I was the only person that Grandmaster Yip Man chose to carry on the
whole Traditional Wing Chun system. I am the best fighter in the Wing Chun
Style. This was acknowledged by the late Bruce Lee, and recognized by many
famous masters of other styles. I anyone needs proof, I would only be too
pleased to oblige.
(3) Nobody - I say nobody - was taught the traditional Wing Chun footwork
but
me. I Leung Ting and company knew it, they would be showing their students.
It
is like the case of the Bil Jee form. Nobody knew the proper form except me
and that is why they have been telling people that the Bil Jee form was too
dangerous even to show it; in order to cover up the fact that they don't
know
it. I was the first WEing Chun master to put Bil Jee in a book so that
everyone can learn the correct version.
(4)Dim Mak or disabling Pressure Point Techniques was passed on to me, along
with the whole Traditional system of Wing Chun. If you have read my article
on
the subject you might understand how it works. However, ther is no medicine
for
ignorance; Leung Ting and company deny the existence because they don't know
it. At least this time they admit their ignorance. My book on Dim Mak, or
Disabling Pressure Point Techniques, will be on the market soon. Keep your
eyes open. In china there is a Kung Fu monk who could stand upside down on
one
or two hands. Some people can break a half dozen inch boards with a punch.
Maybe there are people who can stand on a dozen eggs. I can stand on two
without breaking them. All these can be called tricks if you like, but the
fact is that I am still "the best Wing Chun Fighter". I dare anyone to prove
otherwise.
(5) It is irrelevant to argue whether Yip Man had made be take an oath
before
he taught me the complete Traditional Wing Chun System, because no-one else
was privileged to witness it. The fact is, that after 36 years of training
in
Wing Chun, I have the confidence to say that I am the most knowledgeable
master in the Wing Chun System and I am the best fighter, and I am willing
to
prove it to them at any time, anywhere. Unlike Leung Ting and company, as
shown in the photo, you only have to take one look at them to realize that
none of them look that part of martial artists. I could safely say that none
of them have done any hard training in recent years. They certainly don't
look
very impressive!
In the 50's I was a kid . . . so was Bruce Lee . . . full of enthusiasm and
energy. We learned Wing Chun together and we were determined to make a name
for Wing Chun and ourselves. And we did. In the 50's Leung Ting was still
"in
his diapers". He didn't learn Wing Chun until the 1960's from Leung
Chun,(Yip
Man's student) of his own admission. He is one generation behind Bruce and
me.
However, according to the article published in "Secrets of Kung Fu" Vol 2
1977, hundred of Kung Fu masters in Hong Kong - including Leung Chun, Yip
Shun, Tsui Sheng tin, and Wong Shun Leung - denounced Leung Ting in very
strong terms (I have enclosed copies) Leung Shun was reportedly saying that
Leung Ting wasn't learning from him, but from his student Jah Bak. This
makes
Leung Ting two generation behind Bruce Lee and I.
And Leung Ting's claim that he was Yip Man's closed door student is on what
grounds? In the 60's, Yip Man was a heavy drug user, and did not enjoy very
good health. There was no way that Yip Man could have taught anyone in that
state of health. Even his own sons, Yip Chun and Yip Ching, who came to Hong
Kong in the 1960's, had to be content to train with Yip Man's senior
students.
Wing Chun is a system which was developed for one to be able to master in
three to four years. Grandmaster Yip Man, from age of twelve to sixteen,
learned four years part time the modified version of Wing Chun with Chan Wah
Shun and, from age 17, he learned 2 years traditional Wing Chun from Leung
Buk
(Leung Jung's son) in Hong Kong. Wong Shun Leung only learned modified Wing
Chun for three years part time and he began teaching in early 1955. Loh Liu
probably started teaching after only 2 years part time training in the
modified version.
I studied Wing Chun for 4 and one half years part time in the modified
version, and then 2 and one half years full time in the traditional version,
when I was living with Yip Man. I learned the modified version as well as
the
traditional version. After I completed my learning, I have continued to
practice for a further 28 years, and I still practice daily.
From these factors you can see that I am the most qualified practitioner in
both modified and traditional versions of Wing Chun Kung Fu. I proclaim
myself
the most knowledgeable master and the best fighter in the whole Wing Chun
style.
I would like to close off with a very famous Chinese proverb : "Practicing
Kung Fu is like paddling upstream - if you don't go forward, you must go
backward, and seldom you stay in the same spot". It is no surprise to find
the
whole group in the printed photo appear to have gone so far backward that I
would be ashamed to be associated with them.

William Cheung
Grandmaster

[Phil Redmond]

After the letter I posted was written William Cheung went to Hong Kong to meet with leading WC people there. He told them what Yip Man showed him and even demonstrated the forms for them. I have that footage. He also had a friendly sparring session with Wong Shun Leung. There are still of that session on youtube. The thing that's interesting is that while William Cheung was meeting with his seniors and others no one challenged what he was saying. They even took group pictures. It was after Wm. Cheung left for Australia that the talk started. I wonder why no one said anything while he was there. :rolleyes:
This is old news. I've know about this before I met William Cheung in 1983. Why are we still discussing this? It doesn't make our KF better. The only way to do that is to test what you do against resisting opponents. The key word in "Martial" Arts is the word "Martial" which comes from the God of War, Mars. It seems like too many people are "Theory" artists nowadays. Those are the people involved in lineage battles and trash talking. I never trash talk as I have close friends in many different "Martial" arts.

[Hendrik]

Phil,


IMHumble Opinion,

Every one is correct on WCK . So that is no need to argue if one sees the big pictures.



in Ipman WCK system
The Chan Wah's WCK is the Traditional WCK.
The today's Ipman WCK is a evolution based on YKS WCK.


In Red boat, there are two types of WCK
a, the Siu Lien Tau system which is the original art brought to the red boat, this looks like today's YKS, Koo Lo, Yik Kam SLT.

b, the WCK which evolve with Southern TCMA such as the Chan Wah's WCK.

Ipman knows both because he learn both.





So, within the IpMan system, yes there is the so called Traditional WCK from Bill, and there is the evolution version based on YKS done by IpMan.

But, IpMan system doesnt and cannot represent the whole WCK because there are still many things beyond Ipman's learning. IE from the YKS or Kulo or Yik Kam lineage which is direct from the Red Boat.




These above are the reality on WCK as I see. based on the information which has reveal today from different lineage and time frame.


So, there is not worth to claim which is the best or who is the best. This is an evolution by different people in 150 years of history.



Now, in addition, there is Ever Spring.
That is different with Wing Chun because they are using CLF and other TCMA as core. Wing Chun is based on Siu Lien Tau system core.


However, due to all these exist in the red boat, Wing Chun and Weng Chun are mutual influence and evolve.

[BDBSK]

does anyone have any CLf sparring/fight clips that shows those looping swings in action?

so far the better clf videos ive seen just look like Sand da

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNOfuKLslfQ&feature=channel_video_title

This is me here.

CLF is easy to put right off a boxing base, thats why I love it.

I like to knock WT sometimes, but I respect the good fighters a lot. I even train it myself. CLF can look ****sem too. Lots of people say they can just straight blast through those sau chuis or gwa chuis (looping punches), but it's easier said than done.

[BDBSK]

After the letter I posted was written William Cheung went to Hong Kong to meet with leading WC people there. He told them what Yip Man showed him and even demonstrated the forms for them. I have that footage. He also had a friendly sparring session with Wong Shun Leung. There are still of that session on youtube. The thing that's interesting is that while William Cheung was meeting with his seniors and others no one challenged what he was saying. They even took group pictures. It was after Wm. Cheung left for Australia that the talk started. I wonder why no one said anything while he was there. :rolleyes:
This is old news. I've know about this before I met William Cheung in 1983. Why are we still discussing this? It doesn't make our KF better. The only way to do that is to test what you do against resisting opponents. The key word in "Martial" Arts is the word "Martial" which comes from the God of War, Mars. It seems like too many people are "Theory" artists nowadays. Those are the people involved in lineage battles and trash talking. I never trash talk as I have close friends in many different "Martial" arts.

Couldnt agree more with the theory part. I was at a kwoon, working on the heavy bag, focus mits, etc etc. Next to me was a teacher talking to his students about fighting. I was renting the place out to train. Anyhow, the teacher talked for like an hour on theory and there I was sweating, grappling with training partners, free flowing back into sparring etc. All the time I was thinking...why not let your students train instead of yabbering the whole time!

[Phil Redmond]

Couldnt agree more with the theory part. I was at a kwoon, working on the heavy bag, focus mits, etc etc. Next to me was a teacher talking to his students about fighting. I was renting the place out to train. Anyhow, the teacher talked for like an hour on theory and there I was sweating, grappling with training partners, free flowing back into sparring etc. All the time I was thinking...why not let your students train instead of yabbering the whole time!
I hear that. :)

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNOfuKLslfQ&feature=channel_video_title

This is me here.

CLF is easy to put right off a boxing base, thats why I love it.

I like to knock WT sometimes, but I respect the good fighters a lot. I even train it myself. CLF can look ****sem too. Lots of people say they can just straight blast through those sau chuis or gwa chuis (looping punches), but it's easier said than done.
I also like CLF. I've never trained "officially" but I've had friends show me bits and pieces. Someone with both CLF and WC would be hard to beat.

[CLFNole]

Phil:

Not trying to open up a can of worms but to your knowledge is there any truth to Yip Man having taught many students "a little different"? I heard he would alter how he would teach each student slightly which led to many of the arguements between students as to who was taught correctly etc...

Just curious.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil:

Not trying to open up a can of worms but to your knowledge is there any truth to Yip Man having taught many students "a little different"? I heard he would alter how he would teach each student slightly which led to many of the arguements between students as to who was taught correctly etc...

Just curious.
You are correct. I studied with 4 of Yip Man's students. They've told me exactly that.

[PalmStriker]

William Cheung's response to a letter from the
leading masters of Wing Chun. This version comes from Australasian fighting
Arts
Vol 10 nr 3.


************************************************** ******************


Firstly, I want to point out that the statement by the Ving Tsun Athletic
Association in their letter that the "the association was founded by the
late
grandmaster Yip Man and most of his senior student since 1976" is not true,
because Yip Man died in 1971. So he couldn't have founded the Ving Tsun
Athletic Association in 1976 as claimed.
I shall attempt to answer their letter point by point:
(1) I am the leader of the Traditional Wing Chun because I am the only
person
who inherited the whole Traditional system of Wing Chun. Furthermore, I also
know the modified version thoroughly, and know that it is inferior to the
Traditional system. I therefore proclaim myself the Grandmaster of the
Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu. If anyone does not think so, he can come and
see me and I will be more than too pleased to show him.
(2) I was the only person that Grandmaster Yip Man chose to carry on the
whole Traditional Wing Chun system. I am the best fighter in the Wing Chun
Style. This was acknowledged by the late Bruce Lee, and recognized by many
famous masters of other styles. I anyone needs proof, I would only be too
pleased to oblige.
(3) Nobody - I say nobody - was taught the traditional Wing Chun footwork
but
me. I Leung Ting and company knew it, they would be showing their students.
It
is like the case of the Bil Jee form. Nobody knew the proper form except me
and that is why they have been telling people that the Bil Jee form was too
dangerous even to show it; in order to cover up the fact that they don't
know
it. I was the first WEing Chun master to put Bil Jee in a book so that
everyone can learn the correct version.
(4)Dim Mak or disabling Pressure Point Techniques was passed on to me, along
with the whole Traditional system of Wing Chun. If you have read my article
on
the subject you might understand how it works. However, ther is no medicine
for
ignorance; Leung Ting and company deny the existence because they don't know
it. At least this time they admit their ignorance. My book on Dim Mak, or
Disabling Pressure Point Techniques, will be on the market soon. Keep your
eyes open. In china there is a Kung Fu monk who could stand upside down on
one
or two hands. Some people can break a half dozen inch boards with a punch.
Maybe there are people who can stand on a dozen eggs. I can stand on two
without breaking them. All these can be called tricks if you like, but the
fact is that I am still "the best Wing Chun Fighter". I dare anyone to prove
otherwise.
(5) It is irrelevant to argue whether Yip Man had made be take an oath
before
he taught me the complete Traditional Wing Chun System, because no-one else
was privileged to witness it. The fact is, that after 36 years of training
in
Wing Chun, I have the confidence to say that I am the most knowledgeable
master in the Wing Chun System and I am the best fighter, and I am willing
to
prove it to them at any time, anywhere. Unlike Leung Ting and company, as
shown in the photo, you only have to take one look at them to realize that
none of them look that part of martial artists. I could safely say that none
of them have done any hard training in recent years. They certainly don't
look
very impressive!
In the 50's I was a kid . . . so was Bruce Lee . . . full of enthusiasm and
energy. We learned Wing Chun together and we were determined to make a name
for Wing Chun and ourselves. And we did. In the 50's Leung Ting was still
"in
his diapers". He didn't learn Wing Chun until the 1960's from Leung
Chun,(Yip
Man's student) of his own admission. He is one generation behind Bruce and
me.
However, according to the article published in "Secrets of Kung Fu" Vol 2
1977, hundred of Kung Fu masters in Hong Kong - including Leung Chun, Yip
Shun, Tsui Sheng tin, and Wong Shun Leung - denounced Leung Ting in very
strong terms (I have enclosed copies) Leung Shun was reportedly saying that
Leung Ting wasn't learning from him, but from his student Jah Bak. This
makes
Leung Ting two generation behind Bruce Lee and I.
And Leung Ting's claim that he was Yip Man's closed door student is on what
grounds? In the 60's, Yip Man was a heavy drug user, and did not enjoy very
good health. There was no way that Yip Man could have taught anyone in that
state of health. Even his own sons, Yip Chun and Yip Ching, who came to Hong
Kong in the 1960's, had to be content to train with Yip Man's senior
students.
Wing Chun is a system which was developed for one to be able to master in
three to four years. Grandmaster Yip Man, from age of twelve to sixteen,
learned four years part time the modified version of Wing Chun with Chan Wah
Shun and, from age 17, he learned 2 years traditional Wing Chun from Leung
Buk
(Leung Jung's son) in Hong Kong. Wong Shun Leung only learned modified Wing
Chun for three years part time and he began teaching in early 1955. Loh Liu
probably started teaching after only 2 years part time training in the
modified version.
I studied Wing Chun for 4 and one half years part time in the modified
version, and then 2 and one half years full time in the traditional version,
when I was living with Yip Man. I learned the modified version as well as
the
traditional version. After I completed my learning, I have continued to
practice for a further 28 years, and I still practice daily.
From these factors you can see that I am the most qualified practitioner in
both modified and traditional versions of Wing Chun Kung Fu. I proclaim
myself
the most knowledgeable master and the best fighter in the whole Wing Chun
style.
I would like to close off with a very famous Chinese proverb : "Practicing
Kung Fu is like paddling upstream - if you don't go forward, you must go
backward, and seldom you stay in the same spot". It is no surprise to find
the
whole group in the printed photo appear to have gone so far backward that I
would be ashamed to be associated with them.

William Cheung
Grandmaster Thanks for posting document, Phil. :)

[lkfmdc]

William Cheung's response to a letter from the leading masters of Wing Chun. This version comes from Australasian fighting Arts Vol 10 nr 3.


************************************************** ******************


- If anyone does not think so, he can come and see me and I will be more than too pleased to show him.

- I am the best fighter in the Wing Chun Style. This was acknowledged by the late Bruce Lee, and recognized by many famous masters of other styles. anyone needs proof, I would only be too pleased to oblige.

- the fact is that I am still "the best Wing Chun Fighter". I dare anyone to prove
otherwise.

- I have the confidence to say that I am the most knowledgeable
master in the Wing Chun System and I am the best fighter, and I am willing
to prove it to them at any time, anywhere.


- I proclaim myself the most knowledgeable master and the best fighter in the whole Wing Chun style.

William Cheung
Grandmaster

Is there any wonder Emin showed up to fight him ???

[Phil Redmond]

Is there any wonder Emin showed up to fight him ???
That makes sense. But it wasn't one of the Chinese Sifus and it happened when Cheung was an older man. Not when he was in his prime. The whole story of that "event" isn't known to all.

[lkfmdc]

That makes sense. But the whole story of that "event" isn't known to all.

Phil, as strange as this may sound, I have never seen that letter before. I always assumed Emin was just a punk who showed up at a seminar to cause trouble. But I can now see at least a reason why someone would show up after a letter like that.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil,


IMHumble Opinion,

Every one is correct on WCK . So that is no need to argue if one sees the big pictures.



in Ipman WCK system
The Chan Wah's WCK is the Traditional WCK.
The today's Ipman WCK is a evolution based on YKS WCK.


In Red boat, there are two types of WCK
a, the Siu Lien Tau system which is the original art brought to the red boat, this looks like today's YKS, Koo Lo, Yik Kam SLT.

b, the WCK which evolve with Southern TCMA such as the Chan Wah's WCK.

Ipman knows both because he learn both.





So, within the IpMan system, yes there is the so called Traditional WCK from Bill, and there is the evolution version based on YKS done by IpMan.

But, IpMan system doesnt and cannot represent the whole WCK because there are still many things beyond Ipman's learning. IE from the YKS or Kulo or Yik Kam lineage which is direct from the Red Boat.




These above are the reality on WCK as I see. based on the information which has reveal today from different lineage and time frame.


So, there is not worth to claim which is the best or who is the best. This is an evolution by different people in 150 years of history.



Now, in addition, there is Ever Spring.
That is different with Wing Chun because they are using CLF and other TCMA as core. Wing Chun is based on Siu Lien Tau system core.


However, due to all these exist in the red boat, Wing Chun and Weng Chun are mutual influence and evolve.
I agree with you Hendrik. I still say that none of us could possibly have the whole truth about WC. There are too many variables.

[BDBSK]

I study privately under Carson Lau in WT. I know the debates about Leung Ting, and that's fine with me. I agree that WT and CLF work well together.

As someone not as knowledgeable about WT/WC, I see the politics quite a bit, but I also know so many people within all the orgs who just dont wanna be involved, and just want to train...and there's lots out there like that...thankfully.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil, as strange as this may sound, I have never seen that letter before. I always assumed Emin was just a punk who showed up at a seminar to cause trouble. But I can now see at least a reason why someone would show up after a letter like that.
I can't argue that.

[Phil Redmond]

I study privately under Carson Lau in WT. I know the debates about Leung Ting, and that's fine with me. I agree that WT and CLF work well together.

As someone not as knowledgeable about WT/WC, I see the politics quite a bit, but I also know so many people within all the orgs who just dont wanna be involved, and just want to train...and there's lots out there like that...thankfully.

Yes, the politics stuff is getting old. I just want to train and teach. I have friends in many different MAs including other WC lineages and we don't care about what happened in the past.

[LaterthanNever]

As for CLF and WC being taught together..

Wouldn't that be difficult insofar as..there are CLF sifus who outright refuse to teach people who have had WC training or are WC sifus. Is this d/t the rivalry? Not sure.

By the same token..aren't there WC people who refuse to teach CLF folks?

I've always felt that the 3 main styles of Hung, CLF and WC really could be combined..

If one learned Hung Ga first that is since there are aspects of Hung which are almost a bridge(no pun) between WC and CLF..

[LaterthanNever]

" IpMan system doesnt and cannot represent the whole WCK because there are still many things beyond Ipman's learning. IE from the YKS or Kulo or Yik Kam lineage which is direct from the Red Boat."

I have read once that some feel that Ip Mans' sifu did not teach him all of the original art. I cannot confirm this. Knowing that some sifus of old were fond of subscribing to the practice of "I will teach you 90% of what I know and the remaining 10% I will take w/ me to the grave"(or similar philosophy)..this seems like a possibility.

As for red boat WC..I've also read that there are two styles of Red Boat..the other being brought to the US by master Fook Yeung (I've also heard it pronounced Yeung Fook) who was one of Bruce Lee's teachers for..I believe it was 8 years when Bruce came to America(Seattle, WA)

[Hardwork108]

well, she and I have to two mutual FB friends who are both WC guys, so...

She seems to have a lot of WC friends. I wonder if she will accept my friendship request? :p

[zuti car]

That makes sense. But it wasn't one of the Chinese Sifus and it happened when Cheung was an older man. Not when he was in his prime. The whole story of that "event" isn't known to all.

William would lose that day anyway , if not from turkish guy then from someone else .The whole event was a setup for William organised by Leung Ting and his European followers and there was 4 more guys waiting to beat up William in case turkish guy fail to do the job . Losing the fight from first attacker was acctualy very smart thing from Willam that day ,because in other scenario he would suffuer much serious consequences then bruised ego .There was a lot of things going on around William at that period like serious death threts , ambush in a train ...
I will go off topic, but there is one interesting thing about that turkish guy ,on his seminars he never forgets to say how he hate William but when he start to explain his style of wt he use explenation from Willams book "My Life Wing Chun" to the letter .

[Phil Redmond]

Phil, as strange as this may sound, I have never seen that letter before. I always assumed Emin was just a punk who showed up at a seminar to cause trouble. But I can now see at least a reason why someone would show up after a letter like that.
I'd like to add that the Cologne event happened years after the letter was written. And also that after the incident Wm. Cheung was unscathed and continued the seminar.

[Phil Redmond]

William would lose that day anyway , if not from turkish guy then from someone else .The whole event was a setup for William organised by Leung Ting and his European followers and there was 4 more guys waiting to beat up William in case turkish guy fail to do the job . Losing the fight from first attacker was acctualy very smart thing from Willam that day ,because in other scenario he would suffuer much serious consequences then bruised ego .There was a lot of things going on around William at that period like serious death threts , ambush in a train ...
I will go off topic, but there is one interesting thing about that turkish guy ,on his seminars he never forgets to say how he hate William but when he start to explain his style of wt he use explenation from Willams book "My Life Wing Chun" to the letter .
Yes Zuti, I also heard that there were other people ready to jump in and attack him. But that is an unfortunate event from the past. We should all move on. I know I am.

[lkfmdc]

also that after the incident Wm. Cheung was unscathed and continued the seminar.

it was still a giant mongolian cluster **** that was embarassing to everyone

[Phil Redmond]

it was still a giant mongolian cluster **** that was embarassing to everyone
I've never hear that it phrased like that before. lol
btw, I wonder how the F bomb got through.

[lkfmdc]

I've never hear that it phrased like that before. lol
btw, I wonder how the F bomb got through.

Only some people here can get away with ****. I am one of those ******* lucky ****** who can type **** and get it past the soft ware

[zuti car]

Yes Zuti, I also heard that there were other people ready to jump in and attack him. But that is an unfortunate event from the past. We should all move on. I know I am.

I have no agrument on that ,past should stay in the past .On the other hand i love to
clarify some things because every time when someone wants to trash William he pull that turkish guy who attacks people from behind . Allthough I do not agree on Williams marketing tactics in the past and i am not a fan of William in general, some things should be put straight ,and that is - William lost that fight to stay alive that is whole truth about that .I can speak for days about all the threts William recived at that time , about several extremly serous situation in Europe, but that is story for another time and palce .

About the topic , I think this anty CLF tactics video is stupid . William have a tons of exeletnt wing chun stuff to show and this anty CLF thing was really unnecessary

[TenTigers]

well, seeing that other than Dragon's Lair, CLF and WCK guys are pretty much the only ones posting hard fighting up on youtube, so just as in Hong Kong, a rivalry is being created. This is just adding fuel to the fire, and promotes WCK-as well as CLF. Is it good/bad? Well, at least there are going to be more TCMAists showing their stuff. All these are little wake-up calls to the TCMA community to step up their game, so in my book, the end justifies the means I guess.

[Phil Redmond]

well, seeing that other than Dragon's Lair, CLF and WCK guys are pretty much the only ones posting hard fighting up on youtube, so just as in Hong Kong, a rivalry is being created. This is just adding fuel to the fire, and promotes WCK-as well as CLF. Is it good/bad? Well, at least there are going to be more TCMAists showing their stuff. All these are little wake-up calls to the TCMA community to step up their game, so in my book, the end justifies the means I guess.
I specialize in WC but I'm a martial artist first. I've studied many arts. From Shorinryu in Okinawa to JJJ in NYC. I'll learn and use whatever works regardless of where it came from. The CLF WC rivalry was amongst the Chinese in HK. I'm not Chinese and I have no hatred for any art. I even apply CLF techs when applicable.

[Violent Designs]

I think videos of this is much superior, it is talking about general fighting principles also, and the material presented makes sense and is logical. I like this one in particular:'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPCWSNzaU3o

[sihing]

I think videos of this is much superior, it is talking about general fighting principles also, and the material presented makes sense and is logical. I like this one in particular:'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPCWSNzaU3o

I used to practice Cheung's system. This stuff used to make sense to me as well, I used to teach it all the time. But when I would watch our level 9 & 10 tests, which included random attack defences (straight, round, hook, low, backfist, kicks, etc,,) no one (including myself)could ever pull it off like Cheung demo's, simply because there are too many movements and steps to do (no economy of motion). Basically there's allot of chasing hands & trying to run around the guy to out flank him, rather than taking the guys space and making him run or turn. William is very good at selling his stuff. What I do now when I watch demo's or explainations of things is watch the guy throwing the punches, in this one Joe is throwing weak punches and not tracking his target. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndhjwSXTrz4 , watch the 1st 2 min of this clip, Cheung vs Boxer, see how they are going around in cirlces as they lightly spar, and watch how the boxer is throwing his punches, compared to the way he punches when they show him shadow boxing, big difference.

My advice to William would be (at the moment his pak is on the outside of Joe's arm in the original clip) to step right into Joe with his own strike, take up his space and balance while striking, that way Joe's ability to counter is lessened, your ability to hit is increased and economy of motion and directness is involved, sorta like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sviizp-Bmgw. One needs a stable/adaptable structure to pull this off, not all WC has that development in their curriculum.

James

[Violent Designs]

I used to practice Cheung's system. This stuff used to make sense to me as well, I used to teach it all the time. But when I would watch our level 9 & 10 tests, which included random attack defences (straight, round, hook, low, backfist, kicks, etc,,) no one (including myself)could ever pull it off like Cheung demo's, simply because there are too many movements and steps to do (no economy of motion). Basically there's allot of chasing hands & trying to run around the guy to out flank him, rather than taking the guys space and making him run or turn. William is very good at selling his stuff. What I do now when I watch demo's or explainations of things is watch the guy throwing the punches, in this one Joe is throwing weak punches and not tracking his target. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndhjwSXTrz4 , watch the 1st 2 min of this clip, Cheung vs Boxer, see how they are going around in cirlces as they lightly spar, and watch how the boxer is throwing his punches, compared to the way he punches when they show him shadow boxing, big difference.

My advice to William would be (at the moment his pak is on the outside of Joe's arm in the original clip) to step right into Joe with his own strike, take up his space and balance while striking, that way Joe's ability to counter is lessened, your ability to hit is increased and economy of motion and directness is involved, sorta like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sviizp-Bmgw. One needs a stable/adaptable structure to pull this off, not all WC has that development in their curriculum.

James

thanks for sharing. My knowledge of Wing Chun is very limited so I have no exposure to what makes "more" sense. My opinion was from a comparative standpoint (to Cheung's new ANTI-style clips, for example).

Don't you guys have a training group in Los Angeles?

[sihing]

thanks for sharing. My knowledge of Wing Chun is very limited so I have no exposure to what makes "more" sense. My opinion was from a comparative standpoint (to Cheung's new ANTI-style clips, for example).

Don't you guys have a training group in Los Angeles?

Yup, my coach Ernie is headquartered there, www.abmvt.com, he has a more modern approach to Ving Tsun than most, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_euVrjyso54&feature=feedu as an example.

I agree, that clip of William was a much better one, as compared to some of his other stuff, I've seen him do much better but the majority of stuff he puts out is substandard IMO.

James

[lkfmdc]

he has a more modern approach to Ving Tsun than most, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_euVrjyso54&feature=feedu as an example.



That was pretty interesting.... but I can imagine what the WC community at large would say :D

[sihing]

That was pretty interesting.... but I can imagine what the WC community at large would say :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZvQ6C6OE8&feature=fvwkrel , more VT orientated vid:)

To tell you the truth, I don't think he really cares, I'm startin to feel that way too. The WC world is full of sheep looking to be lead.

James

[lkfmdc]

LOL, sheep, I say we make shish :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah, this thread and WC people...
http://demotivatorsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/1108845-godzilla_facepalm_godzilla_facepalm_face_palm_epic _fail_demotivational_poster_1245384435_super.jpg

[Phil Redmond]

, . . . . sorta like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sviizp-Bmgw. One needs a stable/adaptable structure to pull this off, not all WC has that development in their curriculum.
James
I like that clip because it's just what we do. I'm glad you found what you like. What I do works for me and our guys who fight. So I'm very happy with what you do. The way to find out what works is to fight with it outside of your school. We do and are successful. James, if you're fighting and winning then good for you. Let me add. I competed using "Popular" WC against kickboxers. You know, the WC you do regardless of how different you say it is from other WC. I found that TWC worked better in the ring. That's why we have boxers training with us. Please enter a full contact event against good kickboxers and let us know how well you do. I wish you success of course.

[lone_walker]

Does anyone know much about Kwok Fu, theres a video on him on youtube that basically he says William Cheung and WSL are not that great?

[kung fu fighter]

Does anyone know much about Kwok Fu, theres a video on him on youtube that basically he says William Cheung and WSL are not that great?

here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OH1PR7uDQ

Also here is another interview by him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRYkzHIQ1W0

Kwok fu claims the Hong Kong wing chun is missing many vital things such as the bagua bo

[lance]

First of all he should have gotten a real CLF guy do represent the CLF section. Second, he's just randomly picking out techniques and not knowing how we really use them. I don't know of any CLF guy who knows how to fight would use some of these techniques as openers.

The upper cuts.....they're clueless to how and when we will throw them.

it all SUCKS.

and someone pls tell me what CLF guy will just stand there and LET them beat on us?

hskwarrior ,

Are you a WC or CLF expert ? GM Cheung was just explaining how the fight between the CKF man and himself took place on that particular day . Just like if someone was throwing a straight vertical fist punch at your face , you would automatically react in a certain way against that particular punch right ?

The youtube clip you were talking about is based on an instructional DVD GM Cheung produced . And he used his own student to demo of what happened on that particular day . If he called on a CLF man then the situation would have turned into some thing else . But hskwarrior inorder to find out go and challenge GM Cheung to a fight . Because it ' s very easy to criticize somebody right ? But really challenging the man is a whole different story . If you beat him great , but if you lose then that ' s the truth right there ?

In other words instead of talking bad about the man go and challenge him .
That ' s the only way to find out if he ' s good or not .


Lance

[hskwarrior]

hskwarrior ,

Are you a WC or CLF expert

No i study Tai Chi. Sorry. :o


In other words instead of talking bad about the man go and challenge him .
That ' s the only way to find out if he ' s good or not .

Can you PLEASE direct me to the location where i was talking bad about ANYONE?

[BDBSK]

That's EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT!!!!!

LMAO

You wrote:

"My name is hskwarrior and I think William Cheung is poopy and I hate him"

Geez frank, didnt you even read your post there? It is on page 50 of this thread. haha

[hskwarrior]

You wrote:

"My name is hskwarrior and I think William Cheung is poopy and I hate him"

Geez frank, didnt you even read your post there? It is on page 50 of this thread. haha

I can't read! i only look at pictures! oh wait how did i just respond to you? I'm SPECIAL!

[Keng Lee]

Great Grandmaster William Cheung learned under the founder of wing chun Yip Man he knows his martial arts very well i heard.

[LSWCTN1]

Great Grandmaster William Cheung learned under the founder of wing chun Yip Man he knows his martial arts very well i heard.

O-mei god...

[LaterthanNever]

"Great Grandmaster William Cheung learned under the founder of wing chun Yip Man he knows his martial arts very well i heard."


:rolleyes::rolleyes: Now he's a GREAT grandmaster?

[Phil Redmond]

"Great Grandmaster William Cheung learned under the founder of wing chun Yip Man he knows his martial arts very well i heard."


:rolleyes::rolleyes: Now he's a GREAT grandmaster?
William Cheung has never said he was a GREAT grandmaster. Keng Lee's post was obviously a typo.

[Frost]

hskwarrior ,

Are you a WC or CLF expert ? GM Cheung was just explaining how the fight between the CKF man and himself took place on that particular day . Just like if someone was throwing a straight vertical fist punch at your face , you would automatically react in a certain way against that particular punch right ?

The youtube clip you were talking about is based on an instructional DVD GM Cheung produced . And he used his own student to demo of what happened on that particular day . If he called on a CLF man then the situation would have turned into some thing else . But hskwarrior inorder to find out go and challenge GM Cheung to a fight . Because it ' s very easy to criticize somebody right ? But really challenging the man is a whole different story . If you beat him great , but if you lose then that ' s the truth right there ?

In other words instead of talking bad about the man go and challenge him .
That ' s the only way to find out if he ' s good or not .


Lance

i think Emin already did that and proved how good he is?

[m1k3]

i think Emin already did that and proved how good he is?

QFT, and to be honest neither of them looked very good no matter who did the editing. :D

[David Jamieson]

Wing Chun in many senses has morphed into this convoluted pile of crap over the years for many reasons.

[Phil Redmond]

i think Emin already did that and proved how good he is?
That was one incident and not even a fight. It was a sneak attack from the side. Done by a guy who trained just for the sneak attack who also had more guys ready to jump in in case he lost. W.m Cheung had received death threats and knew that if he won he could be killed. And even if it was a fair square off fight and William Cheung lost that doesn't mean he was never a good fighter. Chuck Liddel has lost "fair" fights. Does that mean he's no good? btw, Cheung wasn't even hurt and continued the seminar afterwards.

[Yum Cha]

Sorry, coming to this thread late, just thought I'd add that back in the day, as I remember, William Cheung and the Lacy's had a lot of competitive spirit that came out on the CLF side. I have no doubt he spent a good bit of effort trying to figure out how to fight those guys properly. No idea how to judge the success though.

[Phil Redmond]

Sorry, coming to this thread late, just thought I'd add that back in the day, as I remember, William Cheung and the Lacy's had a lot of competitive spirit that came out on the CLF side. I have no doubt he spent a good bit of effort trying to figure out how to fight those guys properly. No idea how to judge the success though.
I just happened to find this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmXhjmov2ro

[Yum Cha]

I just happened to find this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmXhjmov2ro

Cool. Little treasure there...

[Phil Redmond]

Cool. Little treasure there...
Sifu Chan Chee talking about how he met and fought William Cheung twice using Choy Lee Fat kung fu. He eventually asked William Cheung to take him to Yip Man so that he could learn Wing Chun.

[Frost]

That was one incident and not even a fight. It was a sneak attack from the side. Done by a guy who trained just for the sneak attack who also had more guys ready to jump in in case he lost. W.m Cheung had received death threats and knew that if he won he could be killed. And even if it was a fair square off fight and William Cheung lost that doesn't mean he was never a good fighter. Chuck Liddel has lost "fair" fights. Does that mean he's no good? btw, Cheung wasn't even hurt and continued the seminar afterwards.

i respect you phil and if you are a reflectionof your master then he must be a good man,and i know you wont take this personally but i get fed up with people making challanges and then making excuses when they lose, rightly or wrongly cheung issued a challange and lost the only match we have any recorded history of, at least liddel has won as well as lost matches about all we can find of cheung are demo clips where he is working against iffy techniques

[Hardwork108]

i respect you phil and if you are a reflectionof your master then he must be a good man,and i know you wont take this personally but i get fed up with people making challanges and then making excuses when they lose, rightly or wrongly cheung issued a challange and lost the only match we have any recorded history of, at least liddel has won as well as lost matches about all we can find of cheung are demo clips where he is working against iffy techniques

I would say that sifu Chan Chee's comments may indicate that William Cheung was a good fighter?

[Frost]

I would say that sifu Chan Chee's comments may indicate that William Cheung was a good fighter?

The TCMA world is full of people talking about each other as great fighters, I remember that tai chi v white crane fight for charity from the 60’s where people were worried they might really hurt or even kill each other because of their skill levels…didn’t quite turn out like that did it

It doesn’t change the fact that the only fight we have of cheung in action looked bad on both the guys taking part, and the clips on this thread and those posted on other threads do not in any way support his claims to be a great fighter, to be fair there are no clips supporting Emin’s assertions to be the great wing chun fighter either

This CLF master could be right, he might be right, but let me ask you this if you wanted to judge the skill level of someone you didn’t know what would you put the most weight behind? Actual footage of them in action on video or word of mouth?

[Hardwork108]

The TCMA world is full of people talking about each other as great fighters, I remember that tai chi v white crane fight for charity from the 60’s where people were worried they might really hurt or even kill each other because of their skill levels…didn’t quite turn out like that did it

It doesn’t change the fact that the only fight we have of cheung in action looked bad on both the guys taking part, and the clips on this thread and those posted on other threads do not in any way support his claims to be a great fighter, to be fair there are no clips supporting Emin’s assertions to be the great wing chun fighter either

This CLF master could be right, he might be right, but let me ask you this if you wanted to judge the skill level of someone you didn’t know what would you put the most weight behind? Actual footage of them in action on video or word of mouth?

Well, there is nothing like an actual footage of someone fighting, but at the same time, one cannot assume that just because no footage exists, then the man in question cannot fight.

IN such a case, it is always good to listen to witnesses. Of course, that does not mean that one has to believe everything one hears, but in the case of Chan Chee's comments, where he claims to have been so impressed that he went on to ask for Wing Chun instruction, one has to be more "openminded".

After all, how many times have we in this very forum, heard similar comments regarding TMA-ists who after having sparred with MMA and/or BJJ exponents, went on to study those MAs?

[Frost]

Well, there is nothing like an actual footage of someone fighting, but at the same time, one cannot assume that just because no footage exists, then the man in question cannot fight.

IN such a case, it is always good to listen to witnesses. Of course, that does not mean that one has to believe everything one hears, but in the case of Chan Chee's comments, where he claims to have been so impressed that he went on to ask for Wing Chun instruction, one has to be more "openminded".

After all, how many times have we in this very forum, heard similar comments regarding TMA-ists who after having sparred with MMA and/or BJJ exponents, went on to study those MAs?

well in this case footage does exist of both a fight and him in training, wouldnt you say that was enough to help draw a conclusion about his skills?

And there are plenty of videos around showing mma handing tcma guys their backsides for us to believe some of those stories wouldnt you agree?

[goju]

well in this case footage does exist of both a fight and him in training, wouldnt you say that was enough to help draw a conclusion about his skills?



not really seeing as how it ended up on the ground

that would be like seeing how good a bjj stylist is by watching a fist fight

all you can really tell is neither one of them are knowledgeable about ground fighting thats about it

[Frost]

not really seeing as how it ended up on the ground

that would be like seeing how good a bjj stylist is by watching a fist fight

all you can really tell is neither one of them are knowledgeable about ground fighting thats about it

Didn’t it start standing and end up on the ground, since wing chun is meant to be a close range system and cheung teaches takedown defences you would have thought he would have been able to deal with a rush attack a little better

As for your analogy If the BJJ guy if it was a stand up only fight I would agree, but if it was an anything goes fight like this one and he couldn’t take the fight to his realm (the ground) then you could make a judgement on their level of skill in an actual fight wouldn’t you agree? In so far as they were terrible at takedowns which is a part of their art?

But I would argue It would have been more akin to a BJJ fighter starting a match on the ground ( in their element as cheung started this match standing unattached in his element) their opponent getting straight back up and then beating them with punches and them not being able to take the fight to where they are best


What we saw in that fight was an inability to defend the takedown or do any damage standing, and then no real ground work, I don’t knock him for the bad ground work but he hardly looked like a great fighter in that fight, admittedly its only 1 clip, but it’s the ONLY clip so it must be given some weight and his demo clips on this thread and others don’t scream world class fighter to me, do they to you?

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is 100% irrelevant what any instructor can do,UNLESS someone has made a comment on said thing.
If someone one has a reputation of being a fighter and there is evidence ( not proof) that is not the case then the reputation is called into question.
Here say and anecdotal evidence is LESS than video evidence, sorry.

I don't doubt that WC can fight, one does NOT do decades of MA and not know how to fight.
How well he fights I have NO IDEA.
And no, chi sao and controlled fighting with students doesn't count.

That said, what WC can or can't do has ZERO to do with what others that have learned under him can do and it has zero to do with what WE or anyone else can do.

The main problem in TCMA and other TMA is this focus on what some master MAY have done or even DID DO in the past that has ZERO to do with what is going on with the system TODAY.

[goju]

Didn’t it start standing and end up on the ground, since wing chun is meant to be a close range system and cheung teaches takedown defences you would have thought he would have been able to deal with a rush attack a little better

The rush was supposed to have been done by suprise as Emin who had a habit of jumping people in the past and did so there , If someone gets the slip on you with a tackle odds are youre going to to fall to the ground.the If one doesnt manage to regroup extremely quick the element of suprise can give the attacker the ability to impose his will even if the person he is attacking could defeat them on what would be deemed as "fair" conditions.

As Someone with basic grappling know how im aware the various anti grappling techniques are for the most part rubbish so lets not go there lol

Granted one could make a case for people who spout this anti grappling as crack pots but recall the Gracie's had a similar attitude where they believed one only had to learn bjj and they had techniques that would nullify stand up completely.

In the Wc case and the Gjj case i dont see it as so much of ignorance. I see it as being stubborn and toegomaniacal to admit they dont have all the answers and as competitions and online videos have shown people who adhere to a belief like this end up having to eat crow.


As for your analogy If the BJJ guy if it was a stand up only fight I would agree, but if it was an anything goes fight like this one and he couldn’t take the fight to his realm (the ground) then you could make a judgement on their level of skill in an actual fight wouldn’t you agree? In so far as they were terrible at takedowns which is a part of their art?


I recall my former bjj coach noted how a Gracie ( cant be bothered to remember which one) remarked how adding striking into the mix changes everything in regards to how you fight with your bjj in other words it makes it a hell of alot more difficult to do in a anything goes environment.

And it does so goes grappling when its added into the realm of striking.

if this bjj guy is put in this hypothetical situation and he doesnt have experience against strikers or has much striking experience himself there's a very good chance he could get dropped before he has chance to do much. or beat up if he fails to keep the guy on his back or nullify his punches from the ground.

this video highlights it as the mt guys clobbers the bjj guy off the failed shoot.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ0HCXRgU5g

now one could make and argument for him being terrible at takedowns but shoots fail regardless of who you are and one small mistake like in that vid can play right into your opponents specialty.


We have a show over here called Bully Beatdown where they have mma fighters engage in actual mma matches with stuntmen .They have a grappling round where the mma fighter is supposed to submit the stuntman five times in the round before it moves on to a kickboxing round.


Jake shields has been on there more than once and he failed every time to submit the stuntmen five times in the given round . Jakes considered to be one of the best bjj guys out there yet he couldnt put away stuntmen who clearly had no grappling experience.

Another mma fighter named Tony Bonelleo was nearly kod by one of the shows actors in his match.



To me this is just a case of **** happens.With live sparring./fighting if you dont do the littlest thing right you screwed and with all things martial related its easier said than done even including submitting someone who isnt trained or defending the take down against someone who wouldnt know a proper shoot to save their life. Unfortunately goof ups like this can be caught on tape and be a source of shame for the parties doing badly.

Granted the difference between these mma guys and Cheung is we have more evidence of the fighters not preforming so poorly so we can compare and contrast. With Cheung we only have one clip as you noted.

However i wouldn't entirely write off Cheung. Though of course i wouldn't call him a world class fighter either as he was simply known for being a good scrapper in his youth and that's hardly grounds for being considered elite in any important means.


Lets be honest with that clip we saw a much smaller fifty year old man either get taken down or slip on the ground with a much bigger younger gentlemen who sneak attacked him . and possibly got put in a headlock from the looks of the video so the fight for some odd reason started attached in the grappling range.which is considered to be wc weak point Then of course the rest of the vid is hard to make out before it abruptly cuts out as quickly as it cut in.

Since Cheung obviously wasn't a professional fighter and did not have the years of conditioning and experience people in that sport do he should understandbly at the age of that vid not exactly be anywhere in prime shape for fisticuffs, Hell im sure what ever training he was doing at that period had tapered down in intensity to considerably.

I think if anything the vid says more about Emin as he couldn't put away a small old man who was an ex brawler many moons ago and had to resort to jumping him to start with. I sure as well hope i could easily defeat a smaller fifty year old even more so if i have the advantage of attacking him out of the blue.Further i believe Emin claimed to have extensive experience in Turkish wrestling so the fact he couldn't use this to wrap cheung in a pretzel and pound him out is even more funny.

No matter how you slice it its always gonna worse for you if you attack someone smaller and much older.

[Frost]

The rush was supposed to have been done by suprise as Emin who had a habit of jumping people in the past and did so there , If someone gets the slip on you with a tackle odds are youre going to to fall to the ground.the If one doesnt manage to regroup extremely quick the element of suprise can give the attacker the ability to impose his will even if the person he is attacking could defeat them on what would be deemed as "fair" conditions.

As Someone with basic grappling know how im aware the various anti grappling techniques are for the most part rubbish so lets not go there lol

Granted one could make a case for people who spout this anti grappling as crack pots but recall the Gracie's had a similar attitude where they believed one only had to learn bjj and they had techniques that would nullify stand up completely.

In the Wc case and the Gjj case i dont see it as so much of ignorance. I see it as being stubborn and toegomaniacal to admit they dont have all the answers and as competitions and online videos have shown people who adhere to a belief like this end up having to eat crow.




I recall my former bjj coach noted how a Gracie ( cant be bothered to remember which one) remarked how adding striking into the mix changes everything in regards to how you fight with your bjj in other words it makes it a hell of alot more difficult to do in a anything goes environment.

And it does so goes grappling when its added into the realm of striking.

if this bjj guy is put in this hypothetical situation and he doesnt have experience against strikers or has much striking experience himself there's a very good chance he could get dropped before he has chance to do much. or beat up if he fails to keep the guy on his back or nullify his punches from the ground.

this video highlights it as the mt guys clobbers the bjj guy off the failed shoot.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ0HCXRgU5g

now one could make and argument for him being terrible at takedowns but shoots fail regardless of who you are and one small mistake like in that vid can play right into your opponents specialty.


We have a show over here called Bully Beatdown where they have mma fighters engage in actual mma matches with stuntmen .They have a grappling round where the mma fighter is supposed to submit the stuntman five times in the round before it moves on to a kickboxing round.


Jake shields has been on there more than once and he failed every time to submit the stuntmen five times in the given round . Jakes considered to be one of the best bjj guys out there yet he couldnt put away stuntmen who clearly had no grappling experience.

Another mma fighter named Tony Bonelleo was nearly kod by one of the shows actors in his match.



To me this is just a case of **** happens.With live sparring./fighting if you dont do the littlest thing right you screwed and with all things martial related its easier said than done even including submitting someone who isnt trained or defending the take down against someone who wouldnt know a proper shoot to save their life. Unfortunately goof ups like this can be caught on tape and be a source of shame for the parties doing badly.

Granted the difference between these mma guys and Cheung is we have more evidence of the fighters not preforming so poorly so we can compare and contrast. With Cheung we only have one clip as you noted.

However i wouldn't entirely write off Cheung. Though of course i wouldn't call him a world class fighter either as he was simply known for being a good scrapper in his youth and that's hardly grounds for being considered elite in any important means.


Lets be honest with that clip we saw a much smaller fifty year old man either get taken down or slip on the ground with a much bigger younger gentlemen who sneak attacked him . and possibly got put in a headlock from the looks of the video so the fight for some odd reason started attached in the grappling range.which is considered to be wc weak point Then of course the rest of the vid is hard to make out before it abruptly cuts out as quickly as it cut in.

Since Cheung obviously wasn't a professional fighter and did not have the years of conditioning and experience people in that sport do he should understandbly at the age of that vid not exactly be anywhere in prime shape for fisticuffs, Hell im sure what ever training he was doing at that period had tapered down in intensity to considerably.

I think if anything the vid says more about Emin as he couldn't put away a small old man who was an ex brawler many moons ago and had to resort to jumping him to start with. I sure as well hope i could easily defeat a smaller fifty year old even more so if i have the advantage of attacking him out of the blue.Further i believe Emin claimed to have extensive experience in Turkish wrestling so the fact he couldn't use this to wrap cheung in a pretzel and pound him out is even more funny.

No matter how you slice it its always gonna worse for you if you attack someone smaller and much older.

So you agree what we have seen of cheung is not great, that anyone who shows anti grappling stuff (as he did) is suspect and that we cant really find anything good of him? And I didn’t write him off I said I have not been impressed by anything I have seen of him, sounds like you have’t either

I remember seeing still photos of emin and his crew facing cheung before the fight happened, either way it started standing in cheungs element however briefly you would have expected a little better from the man who called himself the best fighter in wing chun, as for emins history of jumping people can you post some of them I have never heard of him in any other fight apart from this, one, and I agree he sucked as badly as Cheung

So we have this one fight and the clips of him on this thread and others demoing against half a%%ed attacks: bad takedowns, poor strikes terrible knife work etc, that’s it nothing good of him just hear say, so again I ask what would you judge him on the videos or hearsay?

As for the Gracie’s….you can find clips of them making their art work against strikers when they themselves had little or no stand up skills, but most of them now and even back then trained striking, Royce, renzo, royler all trained striking, as did Carlson and older guys… you can also find clips of them looking good in fights as well as bad…. heck you can find clips of ronin fighting for gods sake and he has never had a pro mma fight in his life just street challenges and dojo fights

[goju]

So you agree what we have seen of cheung is not great, that anyone who shows anti grappling stuff (as he did) is suspect and that we cant really find anything good of him? And I didn’t write him off I said I have not been impressed by anything I have seen of him, sounds like you have’t either

I remember seeing still photos of emin and his crew facing cheung before the fight happened, either way it started standing in cheungs element however briefly you would have expected a little better from the man who called himself the best fighter in wing chun, as for emins history of jumping people can you post some of them I have never heard of him in any other fight apart from this, one, and I agree he sucked as badly as Cheung

So we have this one fight and the clips of him on this thread and others demoing against half a%%ed attacks: bad takedowns, poor strikes terrible knife work etc, that’s it nothing good of him just hear say, so again I ask what would you judge him on the videos or hearsay?

As for the Gracie’s….you can find clips of them making their art work against strikers when they themselves had little or no stand up skills, but most of them now and even back then trained striking, Royce, renzo, royler all trained striking, as did Carlson and older guys… you can also find clips of them looking good in fights as well as bad…. heck you can find clips of ronin fighting for gods sake and he has never had a pro mma fight in his life just street challenges and dojo fights

i think anyone who believes grappling can solely nullify striking or striking can solely grappling is delusional. Doesn't mean they cant preform well in their given art they just arent in touch with reality.

as far as **** poor demos and questionable techniques go again ive seen it in every teacher from mma to tma. I've seen more than a few techniques i dont agree with and think are rubbish. to this day i dont think ive seen anyone whos shown technqiues i 100 percent agree with

In gjj i was shown horrible knife defense, their punch and kick defense wouldnt work to save their life, and the standing joint locks for the most part didnt even render one in pain when they were appllied.


The rest of the gjj was quite good however i just had to wade through .abit of the typical nonsense that is taught to get to the good stuff ie the groundwork where gjj shines.

Though the arguements made that the gjj guys are are out there competing so are cheungs guy just to a lesser level albeit but hey its a start.

To some level cheung can produce fighters. I would judge him on that and if i was to make a completely concrete decision i would take some of his classes and spar some of his guys to make my final judgement about him as i believe thats the best way to do it.

But i wouldn't put much stock in his knife defense, or grappling tactics just like i didnt put much stock in gjj training in regards to anything besides ground fighting.

[YouKnowWho]

anti grappling stuff ...

Someone asked, "Does Xing Yi have hook punches?"

I don't care whether a style has certain skill or not. I only care about whether or not I need that skill. If the skill that I need cannot be found in one style, I'll try to find it in other styles. Nothing can stop me from doing that. Trying to assume a style founder to know everyting is not realistic IMO.

I find the "style boundary" is a terrible attitude to have. Most of the

- strikers try to stay away from any throwing arts discussion.
- grapplers also try to stay away from any striking arts discussion.

How can you enhance your personal knowledge if you only stay within your own comfortable zone? The best way to train "anti grappling skill" is to train the "grappling".

[lance]

No i study Tai Chi. Sorry. :o



Can you PLEASE direct me to the location where i was talking bad about ANYONE?

hskwarrior ,

It ' s all in your thread , if you can ' t see it , then you ' re closed minded . That ' s why I don ' t need to point it out . Do your own research on WC and CLF , I did
WC relies on close range fighting , CLF emphasizes on long rage fighting , another thing is it depends on the skillfulness of the practioners of these 2 systems or styles .

Tai Chi , regardless of what system or style it is , they are all good , because you learn how to develop your chi or internal strength , because you practice the moves . But tai chi also has it ' s own fighting applications too , provided you know your body mechanics . If your chi is strong then you can beat anybody , but you also hold a responsibility , depending on the situation you ' re in use your tai chi when it ' s necessarily .

Lance

[Frost]

hskwarrior ,

It ' s all in your thread , if you can ' t see it , then you ' re closed minded . That ' s why I don ' t need to point it out . Do your own research on WC and CLF , I did
WC relies on close range fighting , CLF emphasizes on long rage fighting , another thing is it depends on the skillfulness of the practioners of these 2 systems or styles .

Tai Chi , regardless of what system or style it is , they are all good , because you learn how to develop your chi or internal strength , because you practice the moves . But tai chi also has it ' s own fighting applications too , provided you know your body mechanics . If your chi is strong then you can beat anybody , but you also hold a responsibility , depending on the situation you ' re in use your tai chi when it ' s necessarily .

Lance

A few things:

Firstly HSK does CLF he was joking with you

Secondly he and most people were talking about how bad the CLF demos were not about willaim cheung as such (I think I started that so its probably me you should be having a go at)

Thirdly CLF is as long range or as close range as you want to make it, I did a version called shorthand CLF, guess what range they liked to use their stuff at………….

Lastly…did you really say if your chi is strong you can beat anybody….did you did you did you :o)

[PalmStriker]

Chi-Wiz. The Breakfast cereal of the GrandMaster Warrior Class. Stays crunchy, even in warm milk. :)

[lance]

A few things:

Firstly HSK does CLF he was joking with you

Secondly he and most people were talking about how bad the CLF demos were not about willaim cheung as such (I think I started that so its probably me you should be having a go at)

Thirdly CLF is as long range or as close range as you want to make it, I did a version called shorthand CLF, guess what range they liked to use their stuff at………….

Lastly…did you really say if your chi is strong you can beat anybody….did you did you did you :o)

Frost Hello , if HSK was just joking about CLF and not about William Cheung ,
then no problem , it was the way he wrote his thread that made me react to it .
And I can ' t see HSK , because we ' re dealing with the internet , but no problem .

I like CLF too mainly Hung Sing and other kung fu styles in general . Do you and
HSK train under the same CLF Sifu ? And who is your sifu ? I also want to study the Buck Sing CLF system too .

And yes , I did say that if do practice Tai Chi you do become strong , but it all depends on how often you train to really build up your chi though . How do you really know if your chi is strong or not ? Get Physically aggressive with your sparring partner . If you can push and shove your partner around without any effort , then you ' re progressing . If not then you got to spend time in training .
But it all depends on the person to build up his chi .


Take Care ,
Lance

[hskwarrior]

I stand by this. William Cheung should have used a REAL Choy Lee Fut practitioner. The simulation of Choy Lee Fut was extremely weak and not representative of Choy Lee Fut.

[goju]

I stand by this. William Cheung should have used a REAL Choy Lee Fut practitioner. The simulation of Choy Lee Fut was extremely weak and not representative of Choy Lee Fut.

though granted that may be closer what he encountered with clf when he was young

im sure youve seen those roof top fights they caught on video it was just wild swinigng from all the styles pretty much :D

[hskwarrior]

I'm even talking mechanically, its not a good demo of how CLF would do something thats all. I'm not saying the CLF guy should look pretty. I'm saying CLF wouldn't do things the way he's displaying it.

[goju]

the way this guys fighting reminds me somewhat of the demo vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsFmWipioeg

what kung fu style is this thats hes trying to do?

[hskwarrior]

LMAO.....he COULD be CLF.....but some reason i doubt it. regardless...who's on the ground? LMAO

[Frost]

though granted that may be closer what he encountered with clf when he was young

im sure youve seen those roof top fights they caught on video it was just wild swinigng from all the styles pretty much :D

Whilst i agree those roof tops fights weren't impressive at lease the the clf guys were actually fighting in the SE asian full contact fights, as were some of the tai chi and Hsingi guys, the only wing chun guy who fought full contact we know of was WSL

[Josexx]

i heard there was some chunners who fought muy thai fighers. Was WSL one on the chunners? William?

[lance]

i think Emin already did that and proved how good he is?

Frost ,

Do you like Emin alot ? Right , emin did prove that he was good , by sucker punching William Cheung , and from there taking william to the ground . But you know what if Emin was that good then why did he have to wear protective gear on his body for ? To me if you going challenge somebody to a fight then do it fair and square , otherwise don ' t fight at all . You know why ? It only makes you look bad infront of your opponent , that 's why ,

Emin is another wing chun expert who learned WC under Leung Ting , but now rhese 2 people are no talking to eachother . To me , Emin has alot of ego in him . but you know what in this world today always going to get somebody better than the people who are better than you .

This whole problem began when Emin or Leung Ting had a seminar on WT , then there was a guy who wanted to challenge Leung Ting , and the guy who challenged Leung Ting was wearing a Traditional wing Chun T - shirt , and that person happened to be from William Cheungs' school .
Emin did the same thing to William Cheung . The only differences is that William
was being suckered punch , and sent to the ground . When William ' s student challenged leung ting , the person was just asked to leave the seminar .

This is old WC news , at that time William claimed to have the Traditional WC , while Leung Ting was modern WC , I think . The WC people happen to find a scroll written by IP Man saying give equal reconition to both men , I think I forget because it was a long , long time ago .


Lance

[hskwarrior]

I stand by this. William Cheung should have used a REAL Choy Lee Fut practitioner. The simulation of Choy Lee Fut was extremely weak and not representative of Choy Lee Fut.

[Frost]

Frost ,

Do you like Emin alot ? Right , emin did prove that he was good , by sucker punching William Cheung , and from there taking william to the ground . But you know what if Emin was that good then why did he have to wear protective gear on his body for ? To me if you going challenge somebody to a fight then do it fair and square , otherwise don ' t fight at all . You know why ? It only makes you look bad infront of your opponent , that 's why ,

Emin is another wing chun expert who learned WC under Leung Ting , but now rhese 2 people are no talking to eachother . To me , Emin has alot of ego in him . but you know what in this world today always going to get somebody better than the people who are better than you .

This whole problem began when Emin or Leung Ting had a seminar on WT , then there was a guy who wanted to challenge Leung Ting , and the guy who challenged Leung Ting was wearing a Traditional wing Chun T - shirt , and that person happened to be from William Cheungs' school .
Emin did the same thing to William Cheung . The only differences is that William
was being suckered punch , and sent to the ground . When William ' s student challenged leung ting , the person was just asked to leave the seminar .

This is old WC news , at that time William claimed to have the Traditional WC , while Leung Ting was modern WC , I think . The WC people happen to find a scroll written by IP Man saying give equal reconition to both men , I think I forget because it was a long , long time ago .


Lance

you need to work on your reading in context skills, my quote meant emin had already done this and proved how good cheung was

Emin challanged cheung because of the open challange cheung had out there, neither of them came out of that looking good

[Lucas]

the way this guys fighting reminds me somewhat of the demo vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsFmWipioeg

what kung fu style is this thats hes trying to do?

something souther, generally northern (if you chamber like in a form lol) chambers at waist. all the southern ive tasted chambers at upper ribs.

[lance]

you need to work on your reading in context skills, my quote meant emin had already done this and proved how good cheung was

Emin challanged cheung because of the open challange cheung had out there, neither of them came out of that looking good

Frost ,

Well if you had wrote your thread the way you described it , then I would nt have quote your thread the way I did , you need to work on your writing skills . I did read your thread , the way you wrote your thread was like saying that Emin won over Cheung .

And the story about the Cheung and Emin challege , I read stories that was opposite of what you ' re telling me in this thread .


Lance

[Frost]

Originally Posted by lance
hskwarrior ,

Are you a WC or CLF expert ? GM Cheung was just explaining how the fight between the CKF man and himself took place on that particular day . Just like if someone was throwing a straight vertical fist punch at your face , you would automatically react in a certain way against that particular punch right ?

The youtube clip you were talking about is based on an instructional DVD GM Cheung produced . And he used his own student to demo of what happened on that particular day . If he called on a CLF man then the situation would have turned into some thing else . But hskwarrior inorder to find out go and challenge GM Cheung to a fight . Because it ' s very easy to criticize somebody right ? But really challenging the man is a whole different story . If you beat him great , but if you lose then that ' s the truth right there ?

In other words instead of talking bad about the man go and challenge him .
That ' s the only way to find out if he ' s good or not .

Lance

i think Emin already did that and proved how good he is?

i was responding to this bit, the underlined bit :)

[Frost]

Frost ,

Well if you had wrote your thread the way you described it , then I would nt have quote your thread the way I did , you need to work on your writing skills . I did read your thread , the way you wrote your thread was like saying that Emin won over Cheung .

And the story about the Cheung and Emin challege , I read stories that was opposite of what you ' re telling me in this thread .


Lance

the letter for the open challange was posted on this thread earlier, here it is again

William Cheung's response to a letter from the
leading masters of Wing Chun. This version comes from Australasian fighting
Arts
Vol 10 nr 3.


************************************************** ******************


Firstly, I want to point out that the statement by the Ving Tsun Athletic
Association in their letter that the "the association was founded by the
late
grandmaster Yip Man and most of his senior student since 1976" is not true,
because Yip Man died in 1971. So he couldn't have founded the Ving Tsun
Athletic Association in 1976 as claimed.
I shall attempt to answer their letter point by point:
(1) I am the leader of the Traditional Wing Chun because I am the only
person
who inherited the whole Traditional system of Wing Chun. Furthermore, I also
know the modified version thoroughly, and know that it is inferior to the
Traditional system. I therefore proclaim myself the Grandmaster of the
Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu. If anyone does not think so, he can come and
see me and I will be more than too pleased to show him.
(2) I was the only person that Grandmaster Yip Man chose to carry on the
whole Traditional Wing Chun system. I am the best fighter in the Wing Chun
Style. This was acknowledged by the late Bruce Lee, and recognized by many
famous masters of other styles. I anyone needs proof, I would only be too
pleased to oblige.
(3) Nobody - I say nobody - was taught the traditional Wing Chun footwork
but
me. I Leung Ting and company knew it, they would be showing their students.
It
is like the case of the Bil Jee form. Nobody knew the proper form except me
and that is why they have been telling people that the Bil Jee form was too
dangerous even to show it; in order to cover up the fact that they don't
know
it. I was the first WEing Chun master to put Bil Jee in a book so that
everyone can learn the correct version.
(4)Dim Mak or disabling Pressure Point Techniques was passed on to me, along
with the whole Traditional system of Wing Chun. If you have read my article
on
the subject you might understand how it works. However, ther is no medicine
for
ignorance; Leung Ting and company deny the existence because they don't know
it. At least this time they admit their ignorance. My book on Dim Mak, or
Disabling Pressure Point Techniques, will be on the market soon. Keep your
eyes open. In china there is a Kung Fu monk who could stand upside down on
one
or two hands. Some people can break a half dozen inch boards with a punch.
Maybe there are people who can stand on a dozen eggs. I can stand on two
without breaking them. All these can be called tricks if you like, but the
fact is that I am still "the best Wing Chun Fighter". I dare anyone to prove
otherwise.
(5) It is irrelevant to argue whether Yip Man had made be take an oath
before
he taught me the complete Traditional Wing Chun System, because no-one else
was privileged to witness it. The fact is, that after 36 years of training
in
Wing Chun, I have the confidence to say that I am the most knowledgeable
master in the Wing Chun System and I am the best fighter, and I am willing
to
prove it to them at any time, anywhere. Unlike Leung Ting and company, as
shown in the photo, you only have to take one look at them to realize that
none of them look that part of martial artists. I could safely say that none
of them have done any hard training in recent years. They certainly don't
look
very impressive!
In the 50's I was a kid . . . so was Bruce Lee . . . full of enthusiasm and
energy. We learned Wing Chun together and we were determined to make a name
for Wing Chun and ourselves. And we did. In the 50's Leung Ting was still
"in
his diapers". He didn't learn Wing Chun until the 1960's from Leung
Chun,(Yip
Man's student) of his own admission. He is one generation behind Bruce and
me.
However, according to the article published in "Secrets of Kung Fu" Vol 2
1977, hundred of Kung Fu masters in Hong Kong - including Leung Chun, Yip
Shun, Tsui Sheng tin, and Wong Shun Leung - denounced Leung Ting in very
strong terms (I have enclosed copies) Leung Shun was reportedly saying that
Leung Ting wasn't learning from him, but from his student Jah Bak. This
makes
Leung Ting two generation behind Bruce Lee and I.
And Leung Ting's claim that he was Yip Man's closed door student is on what
grounds? In the 60's, Yip Man was a heavy drug user, and did not enjoy very
good health. There was no way that Yip Man could have taught anyone in that
state of health. Even his own sons, Yip Chun and Yip Ching, who came to Hong
Kong in the 1960's, had to be content to train with Yip Man's senior
students.
Wing Chun is a system which was developed for one to be able to master in
three to four years. Grandmaster Yip Man, from age of twelve to sixteen,
learned four years part time the modified version of Wing Chun with Chan Wah
Shun and, from age 17, he learned 2 years traditional Wing Chun from Leung
Buk
(Leung Jung's son) in Hong Kong. Wong Shun Leung only learned modified Wing
Chun for three years part time and he began teaching in early 1955. Loh Liu
probably started teaching after only 2 years part time training in the
modified version.
I studied Wing Chun for 4 and one half years part time in the modified
version, and then 2 and one half years full time in the traditional version,
when I was living with Yip Man. I learned the modified version as well as
the
traditional version. After I completed my learning, I have continued to
practice for a further 28 years, and I still practice daily.
From these factors you can see that I am the most qualified practitioner in
both modified and traditional versions of Wing Chun Kung Fu. I proclaim
myself
the most knowledgeable master and the best fighter in the whole Wing Chun
style.
I would like to close off with a very famous Chinese proverb : "Practicing
Kung Fu is like paddling upstream - if you don't go forward, you must go
backward, and seldom you stay in the same spot". It is no surprise to find
the
whole group in the printed photo appear to have gone so far backward that I
would be ashamed to be associated with them.

William Cheung
Grandmaster
__________________
Phillip Redmond
WCKwoon

[lance]

Originally Posted by lance
hskwarrior ,

Are you a WC or CLF expert ? GM Cheung was just explaining how the fight between the CKF man and himself took place on that particular day . Just like if someone was throwing a straight vertical fist punch at your face , you would automatically react in a certain way against that particular punch right ?

The youtube clip you were talking about is based on an instructional DVD GM Cheung produced . And he used his own student to demo of what happened on that particular day . If he called on a CLF man then the situation would have turned into some thing else . But hskwarrior inorder to find out go and challenge GM Cheung to a fight . Because it ' s very easy to criticize somebody right ? But really challenging the man is a whole different story . If you beat him great , but if you lose then that ' s the truth right there ?

In other words instead of talking bad about the man go and challenge him .
That ' s the only way to find out if he ' s good or not .

Lance

i think Emin already did that and proved how good he is?

i was responding to this bit, the underlined bit :)

Frost ,

Our argument or debate is ' nt going anywher so I ' ll I tell you what , if you insist that you were talking good about Cheung and not talking bad about Cheung . then excuse me on that part , I admit I misunderstood you .

Okay , I really don ' t remember what year it was but it was in the Inside Kung Fu Magazine , there was alot of articles on it . I ' m from Hawaii , and I happen to read the articles on the Emin Vs Cheung story , and that ' s where I got my sources from okay . At that time James Demile claimed in his book that he learned the modified version of wing chun from Bruce Lee , and they put Emin on the side , and began talking about Cheung having the traditional wing chun form and Leung Ting the modified version of the wing chun version , and this story got me all confused . And what I told you in my thread about Emin sucker punching cheung at his own WC seminar . And one of Cheung ' s students' did the same to Leung Ting at his own VT seminar . I read in the article in the Inside kung fu magazine , so that ' s why I mentioned it in my thread .

I have 2 friends who are WC sifus themseves they learned from a guy chinese guy in Hawaii , because in Hawaii , WC is very popular . And frost , I ' ve read your statement on cheung and yes , Ip Man died 1 year before bruce died , and someone wrote an article that Ip Man before he died gave equal leadership to William Cheung and Leung Ting , but you can verified that to me . Because it seems that you know alot about these WC or VT people .
Emin as you already know has a series of instructional DVDs in the market today .
But if I ' m not mistaken it ' s on the youtube , I think I saw it one time .

In kung fu regardless of styles or sytems , we may or may not get something good out of arguing or debating . so we just have to forget about our differences .
In our situation , you insist on it so okay , I ' ll take your word for it , but blame the Inside kung fu magazine for misinforming people . Because , I read in the article that Emin had padding to protect his body area , that 's what Cheung found out well this is what I read .


Lance

[B-Rad]

Frost ,

Our argument or debate is ' nt going anywher so I ' ll I tell you what , if you insist that you were talking good about Cheung and not talking bad about Cheung . then excuse me on that part , I admit I misunderstood you .

Okay , I really don ' t remember what year it was but it was in the Inside Kung Fu Magazine , there was alot of articles on it . I ' m from Hawaii , and I happen to read the articles on the Emin Vs Cheung story , and that ' s where I got my sources from okay . At that time James Demile claimed in his book that he learned the modified version of wing chun from Bruce Lee , and they put Emin on the side , and began talking about Cheung having the traditional wing chun form and Leung Ting the modified version of the wing chun version , and this story got me all confused . And what I told you in my thread about Emin sucker punching cheung at his own WC seminar . And one of Cheung ' s students' did the same to Leung Ting at his own VT seminar . I read in the article in the Inside kung fu magazine , so that ' s why I mentioned it in my thread .

I have 2 friends who are WC sifus themseves they learned from a guy chinese guy in Hawaii , because in Hawaii , WC is very popular . And frost , I ' ve read your statement on cheung and yes , Ip Man died 1 year before bruce died , and someone wrote an article that Ip Man before he died gave equal leadership to William Cheung and Leung Ting , but you can verified that to me . Because it seems that you know alot about these WC or VT people .
Emin as you already know has a series of instructional DVDs in the market today .
But if I ' m not mistaken it ' s on the youtube , I think I saw it one time .

In kung fu regardless of styles or sytems , we may or may not get something good out of arguing or debating . so we just have to forget about our differences .
In our situation , you insist on it so okay , I ' ll take your word for it , but blame the Inside kung fu magazine for misinforming people . Because , I read in the article that Emin had padding to protect his body area , that 's what Cheung found out well this is what I read .


Lance

The William Cheung vs. Emin Boztepe fight is on youtube to watch, so there's probably not much point arguing over it too much. I'm not even sure WC landed a punch, but he basically got ambushed and taken to the ground pretty quickly. I don't think WC got a punch off, so I don't really see padding making a difference. William Cheung clearly wasn't ready for a fight... not sure if it would have made a difference, but it's a good lesson about saying you will prove your fighting skill to anyone anywhere :-P

[Frost]

Frost ,

Our argument or debate is ' nt going anywher so I ' ll I tell you what , if you insist that you were talking good about Cheung and not talking bad about Cheung . then excuse me on that part , I admit I misunderstood you .

Okay , I really don ' t remember what year it was but it was in the Inside Kung Fu Magazine , there was alot of articles on it . I ' m from Hawaii , and I happen to read the articles on the Emin Vs Cheung story , and that ' s where I got my sources from okay . At that time James Demile claimed in his book that he learned the modified version of wing chun from Bruce Lee , and they put Emin on the side , and began talking about Cheung having the traditional wing chun form and Leung Ting the modified version of the wing chun version , and this story got me all confused . And what I told you in my thread about Emin sucker punching cheung at his own WC seminar . And one of Cheung ' s students' did the same to Leung Ting at his own VT seminar . I read in the article in the Inside kung fu magazine , so that ' s why I mentioned it in my thread .

I have 2 friends who are WC sifus themseves they learned from a guy chinese guy in Hawaii , because in Hawaii , WC is very popular . And frost , I ' ve read your statement on cheung and yes , Ip Man died 1 year before bruce died , and someone wrote an article that Ip Man before he died gave equal leadership to William Cheung and Leung Ting , but you can verified that to me . Because it seems that you know alot about these WC or VT people .
Emin as you already know has a series of instructional DVDs in the market today .
But if I ' m not mistaken it ' s on the youtube , I think I saw it one time .

In kung fu regardless of styles or sytems , we may or may not get something good out of arguing or debating . so we just have to forget about our differences .
In our situation , you insist on it so okay , I ' ll take your word for it , but blame the Inside kung fu magazine for misinforming people . Because , I read in the article that Emin had padding to protect his body area , that 's what Cheung found out well this is what I read .


Lance

lol its not my statement its what the wing chun elders sent to cheung and his letter of response, in his letter he said challange me if you think you can beat me, he called for it and got it, its that simple

[lance]

Well , that was Cheung ' s way of fighting emin , there was a video on the youtube featuring Cheung and his students dealing with jiu ji tsu people or grapplers . The grapplers was demonstrating on Cheung ' s student , who did ' nt know how to deal with a grappler at all . So cheung stepped in and use his WC techniques to counter the grapplers move by modifying his stance . And cheung beat the grappler .

So after the incident with emin it woke him up even his son today is dealing with grappling because the son ' s friends are grapplers too . So people evolve .
So it ' s important to know the techniques in your system against grapplers , and do drills at it and practice it and make it part of you .

Grapplers would usually go for your legs depending on the situation , so all the martial arts people who fight standing up like karate , kung fu , thai boxers would
have to find their way against grapplers . Capoira , aikido people too . The JKD people have their own moves for grappling mainly because of it ' s founder BL .
Grappling does have it ' s own advantages too , they can only grapple with one person . Karate , kung fu , aikido they are trained to fight with multiple attackers .
JKD people too . Since we ' re all talking about the fight between cheung and emin .

And Cheung and the Choy li fut man , WC you train to guard your centerline and if you ' re good you attack the centerline of your opponent , by using any means to get into your opponents' defensive areas . CLF people been taught to attack their opponent at anyplace where it ' s open . If one hand misses the target then the other attacking hand is on its' way to the next target area .
WC people been taught to defend and attack using both hands while CLF people do defend and attack at the same time or hammer the opponent continiously with a combination of punches , back fist and hand strikes to where the opening is .
WC people who mov e straight into their opponent attemting to knock the their opponent down , CLF people would defend and blast their attacker at the right moment . WC people would use their own share of hand and striking , kicking techniques , just like the CLF people . Next is depending how good you really are as a martial artist .


lance

[lkfmdc]

Well , that was Cheung ' s way of fighting emin ,



STOP
Stop smoking crack
Do you really think Cheung intended to look (and react) the way he did then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2fNPW9OgmY

It was an embarassing mongolian cluster **** and attempts to re-write history never work when the actual video is available




there was a video on the youtube featuring Cheung and his students dealing with jiu ji tsu people or grapplers .



where is it? though we already know the answer, in some alternate bizzaro universe :rolleyes:




So cheung stepped in and use his WC techniques to counter the grapplers move by modifying his stance . And cheung beat the grappler .



complete BS from clueless people is why wing chun gets such a bad rep. just stop it, it's sad

[hskwarrior]

CLF people been taught to attack their opponent at anyplace where it ' s open .

Crack Kills, didn't you hear?


CLF people would defend and blast their attacker at the right moment

See what i mean? who taught you what you don't really know about CLF?


depending how good you really are as a martial artist .

That is the most sensible thing i think you've said so far because "STYLES DON'T FIGHT BACK"

[Frost]

Well , that was Cheung ' s way of fighting emin , there was a video on the youtube featuring Cheung and his students dealing with jiu ji tsu people or grapplers . The grapplers was demonstrating on Cheung ' s student , who did ' nt know how to deal with a grappler at all . So cheung stepped in and use his WC techniques to counter the grapplers move by modifying his stance . And cheung beat the grappler .

So after the incident with emin it woke him up even his son today is dealing with grappling because the son ' s friends are grapplers too . So people evolve .
So it ' s important to know the techniques in your system against grapplers , and do drills at it and practice it and make it part of you .

Grapplers would usually go for your legs depending on the situation , so all the martial arts people who fight standing up like karate , kung fu , thai boxers would
have to find their way against grapplers . Capoira , aikido people too . The JKD people have their own moves for grappling mainly because of it ' s founder BL .
Grappling does have it ' s own advantages too , they can only grapple with one person . Karate , kung fu , aikido they are trained to fight with multiple attackers .
JKD people too . Since we ' re all talking about the fight between cheung and emin .

And Cheung and the Choy li fut man , WC you train to guard your centerline and if you ' re good you attack the centerline of your opponent , by using any means to get into your opponents' defensive areas . CLF people been taught to attack their opponent at anyplace where it ' s open . If one hand misses the target then the other attacking hand is on its' way to the next target area .
WC people been taught to defend and attack using both hands while CLF people do defend and attack at the same time or hammer the opponent continiously with a combination of punches , back fist and hand strikes to where the opening is .
WC people who mov e straight into their opponent attemting to knock the their opponent down , CLF people would defend and blast their attacker at the right moment . WC people would use their own share of hand and striking , kicking techniques , just like the CLF people . Next is depending how good you really are as a martial artist .


lance

do you actually train or do you get all your martial knowledge from magazines and the internet

The clip of cheung dealing with a single leg take down is one of the worst clips out there, its totally clueless, at least emin has actually trained grappling cheung just pretends to know it and gets his students to do bad attacks that people laugh at when they see it

[Frost]

STOP
Stop smoking crack
Do you really think Cheung intended to look (and react) the way he did then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2fNPW9OgmY

It was an embarassing mongolian cluster **** and attempts to re-write history never work when the actual video is available



where is it? though we already know the answer, in some alternate bizzaro universe :rolleyes:



complete BS from clueless people is why wing chun gets such a bad rep. just stop it, it's sad
there is a clip of cheung at a seminar showing how he would deal with a takedown, gets set in a stance says now you cant take me down, then gets put on his backside....:rolleyes: terrance made a long thread about it on the wing chun forum before getting banned

[lkfmdc]

there is a clip of cheung at a seminar showing how he would deal with a takedown, gets set in a stance says now you cant take me down, then gets put on his backside....:rolleyes: terrance made a long thread about it on the wing chun forum before getting banned

In the early 90's we had a very large school in downtown Manhattan. We rented it out to other groups and for seminars. Highlights included the dog brothers doing a gathering there.

We also rented to BOTH Cheung and Emin Boztepe. Cheung came across as ok but very limited in his "world view", i.e. limited to his wing chun system and it's concepts and his preconceived ideas. Emin was similarly limited in his world view but more obnoxious about it. one of his guys thought a rear naked choke would never work on him, we actually put him to sleep :p

The entire thing should be forgotten for everyone's sake, certainly not held up as some example of how great Cheung is!

[PalmStriker]

Think maybe TCMA horsestance training would help wing chun practicioners become more grounded and less prone to being uprooted. That and move out of the way more from "incoming". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ziLtXc7KA&feature=player_embedded:)

[Sihing73]

Emin was similarly limited in his world view but more obnoxious about it.

My experience with Emin was he is skilled but very arrogant. I also found him to be less than respectful with some of his seniors in WT.

I have never met William Cheung, but have had the opportunity to meet and sometimes train with several of his lineage. Almost all of them have been great guys, Phil Redmond is a great example.

[lance]

there is a clip of cheung at a seminar showing how he would deal with a takedown, gets set in a stance says now you cant take me down, then gets put on his backside....:rolleyes: terrance made a long thread about it on the wing chun forum before getting banned

Frost ,

You know what frost intead of talking BS about Cheung go and grapple with him ,
it ' s easy to talk , but hard to do . Go and challenge cheung and see what happens . If emin was a fair fighter he would ' ve allowed cheung to get back on his feet and start again . But Emin had to continue to show cheung how good he was right ? So if the seminar video clips on cheung against the grappler not talking about emin now , still convinces you that cheung is ' nt good then go and challenge cheung then , if you win then I ' ll say cheung is junk .

And you don ' t know nothing about my martial arts back ground , stop your BS on me . I never say nothing about your martial arts background right ? So , stop talking BS about my martial arts back ground .


Lance

[Frost]

Frost ,

You know what frost intead of talking BS about Cheung go and grapple with him ,
it ' s easy to talk , but hard to do . Go and challenge cheung and see what happens . If emin was a fair fighter he would ' ve allowed cheung to get back on his feet and start again . But Emin had to continue to show cheung how good he was right ? So if the seminar video clips on cheung against the grappler not talking about emin now , still convinces you that cheung is ' nt good then go and challenge cheung then , if you win then I ' ll say cheung is junk .

And you don ' t know nothing about my martial arts back ground , stop your BS on me . I never say nothing about your martial arts background right ? So , stop talking BS about my martial arts back ground .


Lance

why should i go grapple with cheung? i have been grappling for over 7 years, done a few competitions and roll with guys in the ufc on a regular basis, what the f*ck could i achieve from rolling with him?

I have seen good grappling, bad grappling and terrible grappling, when someone demos like cheung did its not hard to judge their level

And its not knocking him really i just get annoyed at people who let their ego get in the way of their students learning cheung doesnt seem to want to admit he knows nothing about grappling and would rather make cr^p up than simply tell his guys to go elsewhere

[lkfmdc]

Frost ,

You know what frost intead of talking BS about Cheung go and grapple with him ,
it ' s easy to talk , but hard to do . Go and challenge cheung and see what happens . If emin was a fair fighter he would ' ve allowed cheung to get back on his feet and start again . But Emin had to continue to show cheung how good he was right ? So if the seminar video clips on cheung against the grappler not talking about emin now , still convinces you that cheung is ' nt good then go and challenge cheung then , if you win then I ' ll say cheung is junk .

And you don ' t know nothing about my martial arts back ground , stop your BS on me . I never say nothing about your martial arts background right ? So , stop talking BS about my martial arts back ground .


Lance

we know from your posts that whatever your martial arts background, it isn't in anything at all realistic and you have no idea what you are talking about

from the clips, it is 100% obvious anyone with a wrestling background would take Cheung down without much effort, he has no concept of how takedowns work

[JamesC]

If emin was a fair fighter he would ' ve allowed cheung to get back on his feet and start again .

What's it like living in your "fair" world? This just highlights that you have no clue what a real confrontation is like outside of your little classroom.

Go get some experience in a real gym and then come talk to us about how "fair" fights are.

It's always interesting to see people like you talk about fighting and then read from people like Frost or Sifu Ross who actually have the chops. You people are the reason for TCMA's terrible reputation because you all live in in fantasy land.