Learn Multiple Kung Fu Styles, what are the effects?

[ginosifu]

Over the years I have learn 5 different kung fu styles. I do not consider myself a master of anything but I teach them. Also I have done seminars and spent time with many other Sifu but did not learn a specific system form them.

Each system has it's own uniqueness, each has it's own methods and theory. I learned from different teachers and each teacher had their own thought on fighting / application / theory and form flavor etc etc.

In the end.... I have been affected by all of them. Every style I teach has been affected by all of them. While teaching Hung Gar... it is still Hung Gar but because of the blend of teachers it has tiny nuances from each of my styles. Each of the systems I teach has been affected by my greed early in my Kung Fu career.

My question is:

Is it wrong that my styles are a little affected by the flavor of the others?

Will each system end up not being taught correctly because it has been spiced up by my other teachers influence?

your thoughts

ginosifu

[David Jamieson]

Yep there is a crossover effect and the shapes change somewhat as the entire body of knowledge grows.

I found myself moving further and further away from textbook postures and towards the principles behind the ideas of the motions.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Historically most ( if not all) MA trained in more than one style and it worked well for them, as it continues to work well for most.
Sure there are some that find a style and stick with it and no other and theyare fine with that, but personally I feel they are missing on a huge facet in their MA training and that is experiencing the differences in tactitcs, concepts and principels of other system that can make their system even better ( or at worse prepare them for meeting said systems).
As for cross over I don't think it is that much of an issue, every person customizes their system to an extent ( or at least they should).
Since you mention Hung Kuen, lets take it as an example:
A person who is 6-4 and 230 will have a certain hand, and a person that is 5-4 and 130 will have another.
A person coming in with NO prior MA experience will have a certain hand while someone with prior MA will have another.
Just the way it is.
The pros far outweight the cons

[B-Rad]

Over the years I have learn 5 different kung fu styles. I do not consider myself a master of anything but I teach them. Also I have done seminars and spent time with many other Sifu but did not learn a specific system form them.

Each system has it's own uniqueness, each has it's own methods and theory. I learned from different teachers and each teacher had their own thought on fighting / application / theory and form flavor etc etc.

In the end.... I have been affected by all of them. Every style I teach has been affected by all of them. While teaching Hung Gar... it is still Hung Gar but because of the blend of teachers it has tiny nuances from each of my styles. Each of the systems I teach has been affected by my greed early in my Kung Fu career.

My question is:

Is it wrong that my styles are a little affected by the flavor of the others?

Will each system end up not being taught correctly because it has been spiced up by my other teachers influence?

your thoughts

ginosifu

Honestly, the most skilled martial artists I've ever met were skilled in multiple styles. And it's not unusual for some to allow their other styles to affect each other. Just looking at all of the Liu Yun Qiao students as an obvious example... their baji quan seeps into pretty much everything they do whether it's taiji or mantis. I'll always be affected by chang quan. Entire branches of other systems exist by combining what was learned from multiple teachers.

[ginosifu]

Personally I think that cross training has made me a better MA, However my main concern is:

Are the original styles contaminated? Is my Hung Gar forever ruined because I have cross trained in other systems. Does my monkey style look like the original monkey or is it now a Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, Shuai Chiao, Tai Chi Monkey style?

ginosifu

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Historically most ( if not all) MA trained in more than one style and it worked well for them, as it continues to work well for most.
Sure there are some that find a style and stick with it and no other and theyare fine with that, but personally I feel they are missing on a huge facet in their MA training and that is experiencing the differences in tactitcs, concepts and principels of other system that can make their system even better ( or at worse prepare them for meeting said systems).
As for cross over I don't think it is that much of an issue, every person customizes their system to an extent ( or at least they should).
Since you mention Hung Kuen, lets take it as an example:
A person who is 6-4 and 230 will have a certain hand, and a person that is 5-4 and 130 will have another.
A person coming in with NO prior MA experience will have a certain hand while someone with prior MA will have another.
Just the way it is.
The pros far outweight the cons


To kind of reiterate what Ronin said, people learn, practice, and teach systems according to their peronalities, strengths, and desires. In other words, an instructor from the same system may teach much differently than another instructor from that same system. Everyone puts their own touch on things learned and things done, just like anything else.

Two auto mechanics may have different methods to troubleshoot and fix a car, but so long as the job gets done it really doesn't matter.

I personally feel knowledge is something we should all continue to strive for and it is possible to train multiple styles of Kung Fu or other martial arts, but I do feel a person should have a base art they train in for at least 3 years before doing so. I have trained in multiple styles, nothing as long as my training in Pai Lum however I have always found something I learned or improved upon in each system. Refining and improving techniques often is more beneficial than learning new ones.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Personally I think that cross training has made me a better MA, However my main concern is:

Are the original styles contaminated? Is my Hung Gar forever ruined because I have cross trained in other systems. Does my monkey style look like the original monkey or is it now a Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, Shuai Chiao, Tai Chi Monkey style?

ginosifu

You are assuming that the "original" version ( whatever it was) was NOT tainted by whatever other systems it's originator also knew.
The only way one can "ruin" a system of H2H fighting is to make it less effective.
Going back to HK, I have seen a dozen of different versions of the iron wire ( as an example) and since I never saw Lam doing it in person I have NO idea what the original way was, does it matter?
Nope, not at all.
Why?
Because the HK of Today is no the HK of 100 years ago or even 50 years ago, because systems evolve as people and circumstances evolve.
I know of a HK teacher that teaches the tiger and crane with far less movement that typical so that his students don't need as much space.
My own WK sifu loved to incorporate western boxing into his HK and his students HK because he felt it accelerated the learning process.

[pateticorecords]

Yes, let's not forget that all martial arts studied today have been an evolution of cross training by those before us.

Think of your Martial Arts skills as the engineering of body mechanics and motion. If you find a more useful way to make something work, you will slowly start adjusting your movements to this new method.



If you do not evolve you become extinct... it's natural selection;)

[Jimbo]

Personally I think that cross training has made me a better MA, However my main concern is:

Are the original styles contaminated? Is my Hung Gar forever ruined because I have cross trained in other systems. Does my monkey style look like the original monkey or is it now a Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, Shuai Chiao, Tai Chi Monkey style?

ginosifu

Nothing we do nowadays is going to look exactly like the founders looked like when they started these systems. Even most (all?) of the TCMA systems were essentially MMA's of their day. The founders combined what they felt were the best skills they could amass into a 'new' system. Then throughout the centuries, each new practitioner added/modified/deleted certain aspects to some degree or other.

I believe in cross-training because it's mostly what I've done throughout my MA life. But to me, cross-training is not just collecting 'a little of this & a little of that' from various systems, but striving to understand and incorporate whatever you can from whatever system you study. Once I began CMA, I tended to stick to one system, like Tanglangquan (N. Mantis) for years (about 10). When I took up CLF, I ended up switching styles and concentrating on that. I tried to keep up the TLQ as well, but both practices were too much; however, I have retained some of the principles of TLQ that worked for me, because they became an integrated part of me. They don't conflict with, but enhance my personal CLF. What's important is, can you make it work?

IMO, it's important to settle on a base system. Though mine changed, the shift felt natural. Even within the same system or the same school, nobody moves or fights exactly the same. You can tell they're the same style, but lots of factors make everyone's presentation/interpretation of the art different. And it's good to gain some experience in outside arts, even if you don't plan on making them a lifelong pursuit. The experiences I've had with boxing/kickboxing and BJJ were fun, and enhance your perspective on your chosen art(s).

As far as training/maintaining several complete(?) systems at once, IMO it's very difficult. In actual application, it's like having too much data to sift through.

[ginosifu]

Thanks everyone for your input. I agree with all of you that my experiences will affect all of my styles and that they will eventually become unique, but still contain the essence of the original system.

ginosifu

[Northwind]

I think your last statement is great.

It takes a while of cross-training to find your groove for sure. Although my mainstay is Northern Shaolin, my actual combat improved many years ago significantly by some training in Hung Gar - but then I became a BSL forms guy & Hung Gar fighter. Then there was the time I spent doing a little Jook Lum where I began to use that flavor of short power in all short range things I did.

But over time I was able to learn and smooth it out. The long-term pros are good. For me, however, when walking into a new style, it's still tough not to do things with BSL flavor, but again it just takes time.

Overall I think it's a good thing. :)

[shaolin_allan]

I've been doing wing chun off and on for six months now but I find myself wanting to do other styles also. If I start now learning from another sifu do you guys think i'd be fine? Whats the minimum amount of time u should do a base system before u cross train? especially one that can be learned faster like wing chun?

[ginosifu]

spend at least 3 or 4 years in one art form before mixing. Get the basics down for a couple of years and then re - evealuate the WC and see where you can go from there.

ginosifu

[bawang]

thats about 3 or 4 thousand dollars and the prime of your life gone evaluating

[Violent Designs]

thats about 3 or 4 thousand dollars and the prime of your life gone evaluating

lol

do hung ga maybe

[shaolin_allan]

thats about 3 or 4 thousand dollars and the prime of your life gone evaluating

yeah I was thinking the same thing

[Syn7]

depends on you, what you're training and who you are learning it from...

[Syn7]

thats about 3 or 4 thousand dollars and the prime of your life gone evaluating

better than turning 70 and realizing ya done fukced up when you chose wing chun... it may take time but unless you find a great one early, well worth the time, dont you think??? besides, just cause you branch out doesnt mean you have to train any less in the arts you already do...

[shaolin_allan]

yeah syn7 i actually completely agree

[Lucas]

if you can try out a school that teaches longfist. :D

I personally think longfist provides a good base to transition to any other kungfu style. really you can say the same about tons of styles too so maybe im bias.

[YouKnowWho]

if you can try out a school that teaches longfist. :D

I personally think longfist provides a good base to transition to any other kungfu style. really you can say the same about tons of styles too so maybe im bias.

You are not bias. The longfist system is the "mother" of all CMA styles. With the Longfist 8 basic stances as your foundation, there is no style that you cannot cross train afterward.

[bawang]

better than turning 70 and realizing ya done fukced up when you chose wing chun

if it takes someone 70 years to realize wing chun is bullsh1t then he is retard. instead of martial arts maybe he shouldve chose finger painting.

[David Jamieson]

better than turning 70 and realizing ya done fukced up when you chose wing chun... it may take time but unless you find a great one early, well worth the time, dont you think??? besides, just cause you branch out doesnt mean you have to train any less in the arts you already do...

It's an easy fix.
Keep the kicks and switch to boxing. :-)

[shaolin_allan]

yeah long fist does seem like a good base system for a lot of kung fu styles, especially if u actually get to learn it traditionally.

[ginosifu]

I've been doing wing chun off and on for six months now but I find myself wanting to do other styles also. If I start now learning from another sifu do you guys think i'd be fine? Whats the minimum amount of time u should do a base system before u cross train? especially one that can be learned faster like wing chun?


spend at least 3 or 4 years in one art form before mixing. Get the basics down for a couple of years and then re - evealuate the WC and see where you can go from there.



thats about 3 or 4 thousand dollars and the prime of your life gone evaluating

Let me explain that a bit better.

I spent from about 1986 - 1992 hoping from teacher to teacher. Spending 3 or 4 months here and a month or 2 there. I tried everything from Silat to Shotokan. I spent 2 Years at a Tae Kwon Do school until I found Northern Shaolin.

I spent about 2 or 3 years in Northern Shaolin before I started Hung Gar and then another 2 or 3 before I started Monkey. I was doing Shuai Chaio and Tai Chi Along With Shaolin. I was Kinda Lucky... SC was just part of the curriculum in the Northern Shaolin Class. Tai Chi was taught by a Sifu who was just renting out the space at the time in the same facility.

Spend time seeking out the right teacher for you then spend 3 or 4 years into an art form before you start hoping around frrom srtyle to style.

ginosifu

[shaolin_allan]

that makes a lot more sense gino.

[TenTigers]

when studying two arts, you need to look at them like two gears; beginners see only how they clash, while later, you see how they fit in with each other.
It helps to study two arts that compliment each other. Hung-Ga and Kali,Wing Chun or SPM, also Yang style Tai-Chi. Throwing art goes well with everything.

[shaolin_allan]

when studying two arts, you need to look at them like two gears; beginners see only how they clash, while later, you see how they fit in with each other.
It helps to study two arts that compliment each other. Hung-Ga and Kali,Wing Chun or SPM, also Yang style Tai-Chi. Throwing art goes well with everything.


Yeah good point tentigers. I think Yang would compliment hung ga really well or any of the wudang arts.

[PalmStriker]

better than turning 70 and realizing ya done fukced up when you chose wing chun... it may take time but unless you find a great one early, well worth the time, dont you think??? besides, just cause you branch out doesnt mean you have to train any less in the arts you already do... If you get to turn seventy, you've already succeeded:D.

[Eric Olson]

I think you have to be careful that the technique matches the body mechanics.

EO

[AdrianK]

Over the years I have learn 5 different kung fu styles. I do not consider myself a master of anything but I teach them. Also I have done seminars and spent time with many other Sifu but did not learn a specific system form them.

Each system has it's own uniqueness, each has it's own methods and theory. I learned from different teachers and each teacher had their own thought on fighting / application / theory and form flavor etc etc.

In the end.... I have been affected by all of them. Every style I teach has been affected by all of them. While teaching Hung Gar... it is still Hung Gar but because of the blend of teachers it has tiny nuances from each of my styles. Each of the systems I teach has been affected by my greed early in my Kung Fu career.

My question is:

Is it wrong that my styles are a little affected by the flavor of the others?

Will each system end up not being taught correctly because it has been spiced up by my other teachers influence?

your thoughts

ginosifu


So, here's an idea:

What is there to contaminate? How you do each style will obviously change, but how you teach each style, and the original templates won't be affected if you understand your curriculum.

That being said, if one of your styles has an idea or template that doesn't make sense and you want to change it, work with your teachers and kung fu brothers/sisters to find out if it doesn't make sense because you didn't get it, or if it just doesn't work, in which case, who cares if you "contaminate" it?

Peer review is essential in any field of study. No style has 100% perfect ideas, there's no such thing as an infallible style, and every style can use refinement somewhere.

But if your goal is to teach the original curriculum, it shouldn't be affected at all by other styles. You should understand each template and the concepts it demonstrates, as well as the concepts it does not demonstrate (but maybe should).

I don't have any problem separating each style in my mind, and for things I do, I have everything in my notes anyways.

... of course, this is where a good general education can come in handy... :D

[Violent Designs]

It should be taken note that when we ourselves are being taught "stand-alone" systems by our teachers and that particular curriculum, we should remember such methods for the most part.

There's no reason for your WCK curriculum to become "tainted" by another system you do. How you personally fight using your martial arts knowledge is another thing, but teaching is quite different.

Without a proper curriculum, there is nothing to teach.

[KC Elbows]

My Shuai Jiao is always screwing up my salsa dancing.

[Lucas]

My Shuai Jiao is always screwing up my salsa dancing.

get I trouble for dumping your dance teacher partner on her head again?

[bawang]

Let me explain that a bit better.

I spent from about 1986 - 1992 hoping from teacher to teacher. Spending 3 or 4 months here and a month or 2 there. I tried everything from Silat to Shotokan. I spent 2 Years at a Tae Kwon Do school until I found Northern Shaolin.

I spent about 2 or 3 years in Northern Shaolin before I started Hung Gar and then another 2 or 3 before I started Monkey. I was doing Shuai Chaio and Tai Chi Along With Shaolin. I was Kinda Lucky... SC was just part of the curriculum in the Northern Shaolin Class. Tai Chi was taught by a Sifu who was just renting out the space at the time in the same facility.

Spend time seeking out the right teacher for you then spend 3 or 4 years into an art form before you start hoping around frrom srtyle to style.

ginosifu

if martial arts are taught more openly and less secretive you could have found your ideal style in a matter of months.
these days martial arts are too expensive, and msot people too busy to be able to do what you did.

[jesper]

if martial arts are taught more openly and less secretive you could have found your ideal style in a matter of months.
these days martial arts are too expensive, and msot people too busy to be able to do what you did.

?? how much does it cost to train where you live

[David Jamieson]

My Shuai Jiao is always screwing up my salsa dancing.

Just stay away from lindy hop and your partner may get through this without a broken neck....

[B-Rad]

?? how much does it cost to train where you live

Not sure about bawang's location, but here it's about $100/month now on average.

[David Jamieson]

For Kung Fu, I think the effects are minimal except for small nuances.

horse stance is horse stance. It is either high or low.
bow and arrow are same across all styles, high or low being the thing again.
60/40 step is same same
50/50 is same same
cat stance or empty/false leg stance are same again with the high or low.

punching is either flat fist, vertical fist, upper cut

over hand flat fist is called charp or simply, an overhand in boxing. lol

kicking is flicked, swung off the hip, pivotted, pushed, cut.

There is in my opinion no bad things except those things that are contrary to common sense.

In my mind, most of everything that is out there is rooted in shaolin, even the wudang and other taoist stuff and for the most part the so called "internal martial arts" have all these things as well.

[shaolin_allan]

In my mind, most of everything that is out there is rooted in shaolin, even the wudang and other taoist stuff and for the most part the so called "internal martial arts" have all these things as well.

The internal arts you're referring to are wudang but I do agree with what you posted. You will find similarities across all cma systems. good post.

[Grumblegeezer]

There is in my opinion no bad things except those things that are contrary to common sense.

That's common sense.

I train Wing chun and Eskrima (Latosa and also Torres DTE). Latosa's stuff is really strong and practical. And, the DTE Eskrima group is run by a boxer who really knows how to generate power. They also train cage fighters. Some have done pretty well locally. Now, all I need is to get back into grappling and I feel I've got my bases covered. At least as well as I can at age 55 with a family and career to tend to. Yeah, I know Bawang hates WC. I'd tell him he's full of it-- that he doesn't know our WC, but what's the point? He wouldn't listen. Besides, I want to stay on his good side, cuz his mom is hot!

[shaolin_allan]

Yes I agree with Grumblegeezer that escrima is a great combination with wing chun and the wing chun i train is very realistic and we focus on basics a lot. :) Down the road after I get a good base I plan on re-learning the Bagua I had forgotten as well and finish the system.

[YouKnowWho]

The Chinese wrestling and the Mantis system are a good mix. You can use Mantis hands combo to set up many throws.

[SPJ]

The Chinese wrestling and the Mantis system are a good mix. You can use Mantis hands combo to set up many throws.

yes. it is a good approach, however, the stepping methods are rapid and light in mantis.

if the end game is a throw, the end steps have to be steady and firm.

give or take.

:cool:

[SPJ]

learn whatever you can

take whatever you can

then after a while

learn/polish/refine whatever you need

take whatever you need or like

from whatever styles

---

:)

[SPJ]

this canadian french singer has her unique renditions of songs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK-dwEUx0vs&feature=related

true colors

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnpJVWQPM5Y

tous les garcons et les filles

--

original singing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aLoezucIzk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPn0KFlbqX8

--

my point is that you factor will play out in the end.

:cool:

[lance]

Over the years I have learn 5 different kung fu styles. I do not consider myself a master of anything but I teach them. Also I have done seminars and spent time with many other Sifu but did not learn a specific system form them.

Each system has it's own uniqueness, each has it's own methods and theory. I learned from different teachers and each teacher had their own thought on fighting / application / theory and form flavor etc etc.

In the end.... I have been affected by all of them. Every style I teach has been affected by all of them. While teaching Hung Gar... it is still Hung Gar but because of the blend of teachers it has tiny nuances from each of my styles. Each of the systems I teach has been affected by my greed early in my Kung Fu career.

My question is:

Is it wrong that my styles are a little affected by the flavor of the others?

Will each system end up not being taught correctly because it has been spiced up by my other teachers influence?

your thoughts

ginosifu

Hello , to me there ' s nothing wrong with learning multiple kung fu styles , I do the samething as you . But yes , you do have the cross over effects , but you learn different ways of defending yourself . weather it may be Hung Gar , choy li fut , wing chun or whatever kung fu styles you would like to study . You have alot of arsenal of hands and feet weapons in your expertise .

Like Bruce Lee did in enter the dragon , when he was fighting in the basement with the guards . I noticed that he did alot of techniques from different styles of the martial arts and made it look easy when it's not . But that was his way of using techniques from different martial arts , some techniques was made to look good for the movies .

Although every styles would have their own share of concepts and theories , to
me when you ' re involved in a situation where you fighting for your lives against multiple attackers , you ' re not going to think what techniques to use , it becomes automatic . In other words freedom of movements using kung fu techniques . Because certain techniques can be used to counter against certain types of attacks .

The techniques should be very simple to use and practical against multiple attacks . Do alot of drills and use your imagination , nobody said that multiple attack situation was going to be easy , but if we all want to survive we all have to train ourselves into getting out of it , seriously . this is just my own input to this
topic posts .

Take Care ,
Lance