More Important-Throwing/Wrestling (Shuai) or Submission (Na)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

A question for all you Chinese grapplers or grapplers in general. What do you feel is more important, throw or submit. Yes, I know both are important, I want to know which you feel is more beneficial to be better at. Please don't turn this into a Kung Fu has no grappling or Chin Na is not the same as BJJ, most all of usrecongnize that yes, Chin Na does not compare to BJJ or Judo Newaza in regards to submission. Just looking for opinions. Personally I feel for street self defense throws and wrestling are of more importance. However, for MMA competition I believe submission work to be more important. Thoughts?

[David Jamieson]

Throw then submit.

[SanHeChuan]

Shuai is more important you can always beat them into sumbission.

[Lucas]

i say throw...but i only concern myself with self defense...so i am skewed to that end.

[David Jamieson]

Is Na submit?

I thought it was catch, hold or lock?

[Lucas]

i thot it meant to lock/break...i dunno tho i no speakie

[David Jamieson]

Maybe 嗆了 (Qiāng le / choke out) lol...


giyf :p

[ShaolinDan]

The division (definition?) isn't working for me. I understand looking at throws and submissions separately...but how can wrestling be separated from submissions (or throws)? All that's left is rolling around aimlessly...

[Frost]

standing grappling with strikes, control and finish baby :)

failing that subs

[sanjuro_ronin]

A question for all you Chinese grapplers or grapplers in general. What do you feel is more important, throw or submit. Yes, I know both are important, I want to know which you feel is more beneficial to be better at. Please don't turn this into a Kung Fu has no grappling or Chin Na is not the same as BJJ, most all of usrecongnize that yes, Chin Na does not compare to BJJ or Judo Newaza in regards to submission. Just looking for opinions. Personally I feel for street self defense throws and wrestling are of more importance. However, for MMA competition I believe submission work to be more important. Thoughts?

That is a tough one dude...the Judoka in me says Throw but the BJJ in me say submit.
Both are of equal value of course, the situation will dictate which one is prioritized or best suited.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Is Na submit?

I thought it was catch, hold or lock?

Just trying to put the Chinese flavor on it.:cool:

Catch, hold, lock could be construed as submit. Most Chin Na I have learned was a lock, choke, or break used to incapacitate someone, or make them submit, which is what I was getting at.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

That is a tough one dude...the Judoka in me says Throw but the BJJ in me say submit.
Both are of equal value of course, the situation will dictate which one is prioritized or best suited.

This is the kind of answer I was looking for. Most of us would agree that both are important, but which is better in your eyes and why. I love rolling and working submissions, but I prefer throws and takedowns, also love doing clinch work.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The division (definition?) isn't working for me. I understand looking at throws and submissions separately...but how can wrestling be separated from submissions (or throws)? All that's left is rolling around aimlessly...

They can and are seperated. That doesn't mean they are ignored or not worked, just certain styles don't work them as much. BJJ concentrates much more on groundwork and submission and not as much on throws and takedowns as compared to most Judo and wrestling. The opposite effect can be said of Judo or wrestling's submissions. I am not making a blanket statement here, as I know there are exceptions but generally speaking this is how it is.

[ShaolinDan]

Hey Iron,
It was the 'throwing/wrestling or submission' that confused me...No questions if I ignore the '/wrestling' bit.

That said, both important and situational. However, for me submission is more important because my throws always turn into rolls or trips...which are good to set up a submission, but no good for taking someone out by themselves.

[Frost]

people get up from throws all the time, no one gets up from being choked out :)

[dirtyrat]

There are throws that wrenches the elbow or shoulder when executed right. So if you wanted the option to submit someone, all you had to do was stop short of the throw.

[goju]

both are equally important as you will inevitably end up in both situations given the range of combat

[YouKnowWho]

There are throws that wrenches the elbow or shoulder when executed right. So if you wanted the option to submit someone, all you had to do was stop short of the throw.
Agree! Here is an example for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LS-SeoWvaw

How to cause the maximum damage on your opponent by your throw is important too. The submission is not the only "finish" move after throw. We should discuss all possible "finish" moves after throw too. I had started a thread on this in another forum but soon died after just 1 response.

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11928

Do I cause "huge derails" and try to start a "flame war" by making this suggestion?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTR5KU3xwls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbJfX9Jinik

[Lucas]

How to cause the maximum damage on your opponent by your throw is important too. The submission is not the only "finish" move after throw. We should discuss all possible "finish" moves after throw in order to be a complete discussion.

Do I cause "huge derails" and try to start a "flame war" by making this suggestion?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTR5KU3xwls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbJfX9Jinik

i dont think any derail or flame from this. it is very valid. for people that have an emphasis on throwing it is very important to learn how to do the maximum damage you can with your throws...for real life you want to be able to lock and break during a throw if you can and have your opponent land on their head if possible. in competition this is removed and safety is emphasised for good sport.

for people that do not think in competition mindset you must always find ways to cause more injury with less action and in less time. you can 'submit' with follow up strikes from a throw also, gnp is the prime example.

[JDK]

Good comments.

Contained in this clip are some throws that in and of themselves would incapacitate many opponents ( in street situations , and applied by the thrower with deadly intent and full power)...keeping in mind the unforgiving surfaces of most street situations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM5orlabCFE

Of course one must be prepard to follow up and finish the fight if needed....but being slammed full blast on one's head on concrete, tends to take the fight out of many people.

[YouKnowWho]

In combat (not sport), where you want your opponent to land, and how you want your opponent to land are important. Your throw may be circular but the final drop should be linear. This way, your opponent won't be able to complete his body rotation and land comfortable with safe break fall. It's called "摔半個人(Shuai Ban Ge Ren) - throw your opponent 1/2 way".

[Northwind]

In combat (not sport), where you want your opponent to land, and how you want your opponent to land are important. Your throw may be circular but the final drop should be linear. This way, your opponent won't be able to complete his body rotation and land comfortable with safe break fall. It's called "摔半個人(Shuai Ban Ge Ren) - throw your opponent 1/2 way".

Nicely done. I had not put in my input yet because I don't really practice a grappling art. But we do (Northern Shaolin) have entries, throws, etc., and I enjoy them. What YKW says is close to my opinion. Personally, I enjoy the idea of throwing or manipulating them into environmental dangers and then getting the hell out of there.

[YouKnowWho]

but being slammed full blast on one's head on concrete, tends to take the fight out of many people.
In combat (not sport), you try to achieve these kind of effect if you can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2N8SW7uLMM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuBi8YIFrc

If you understand that "throw = skull cracking", then you are on the right track.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.dekalshoppen.se/shop/images/cracked_skull.gif&imgrefurl=http://boards.ign.com/wwe_smackdown/b6546/196929719/r196929827/&usg=__t3iDp_OIfuvzQUjCYxDMnQd-uQg=&h=267&w=500&sz=7&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=yL4jcBji1BsmNM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=158&ei=ysx6TZfRBYji0gGhpYjRAw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcrack%2Bskull%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26rl z%3D1I7DLUS_en%26biw%3D1379%26bih%3D857%26tbs%3Dis ch:1%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=459&vpy=103&dur=1772&hovh=164&hovw=307&tx=150&ty=65&oei=ysx6TZfRBYji0gGhpYjRAw&page=1&ndsp=39&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0

[Lucas]

also to be extreme after dumping them on their head, you can guarantee submission to follow with a choke. after taking a fall like that on their head, if they are still concious and moving, you can likely get the choke with little real resistance. i will always prefer a throw over a take down for that reason...of course we cannot always throw.

[mooyingmantis]

In combat (not sport), where you want your opponent to land, and how you want your opponent to land are important. Your throw may be circular but the final drop should be linear. This way, your opponent won't be able to complete his body rotation and land comfortable with safe break fall. It's called "摔半個人(Shuai Ban Ge Ren) - throw your opponent 1/2 way".

Excellent point John!

Judo = sport, throw in a manner in which the opponent can safely recover
Jujutsu = self-defense, throw in a manner in which the opponent is maimed or killed.

[Lucas]

maybe a bit OT but is a connection to throws....it may not be or seem to be the 'honorable' thing but for someone who is a striker over a submission grappler, after a throw/sweep/knockdown, stomps and kicks can be a great tool. personally i think these things are important to consider. myself i would prefer to not follow someone down if i can retain my mobility and keep on my feet but still finish. of course not something one would do to another person in just any situation, but there are times i think when stomping and kicking a downed opponent is called for.

this is an application that is generally completely removed from (or never added to) most sport fighters thought process.

edit to add: *somewhat graphic vid*
http://www.extremesportclips.com/video/2104/Street-Fight-Head-Stomp.html

[Shaolin]

However, for MMA competition I believe submission work to be more important.

Personally I disagree, wrestling (preferably Greco) with top control and ground and pound. Wrestlers dominate MMA over BJJ players. BJJ players are comfortable on their backs and don't typically have good TDD leading wrestlers to out score them. I do not discredit BJJ, submission work is extremely important, but if I had to pick one or the other I'd choose wrestling first.

[ginosifu]

Both can not be seperated, both are part of the same whole. It is like saying: what should you eat an apple or an orange? They are both healthly for you, both taste good.

You can not say one is better than the other. Some peeps throw more, some peeps grapple and submit more. Each one depends on the situation. Sometimes I like to eat Apples, and sometimes I like to eat oranges.

I get into moods where I will focus solely on trying to submit. When I fight with friends or students, we fight (Spar) usually to the ground until someone taps out.

Then there are times when I in a mood to throw. The whole time trying to set up and complete throws.

And there are times when I get into a mood where I try and hit pressure points. Then are some time when I try and use Iron Palm and slap everyone silly.

One is not better than the other, just depends on the player and what they like to focus on.

ginosifu

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Personally I disagree, wrestling (preferably Greco) with top control and ground and pound. Wrestlers dominate MMA over BJJ players. BJJ players are comfortable on their backs and don't typically have good TDD leading wrestlers to out score them. I do not discredit BJJ, submission work is extremely important, but if I had to pick one or the other I'd choose wrestling first.

This is a valid point. Although with good camps now all ranges are trained but of course you will have fighters best in a certain area. The only problem I have seen with wrestlers is exposing their head/neck during the shoot. Guillotine chokes are what catches them when they have this habit. But when it comes to takedowns , movement, control and domination, nothing beats wrestling.