Different kind of muscle?

[YouKnowWho]

I'm proud to present my daughter's excellent performance. Do you think CMA training can help you to achieve this kind of flexibility, balance, strength, endurence, body alignment, and inner connection?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WguirjwYE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8ztoWCtg88

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7Qrf5VfkMM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j35M4PGXU34

Onething in my mind is that I knew she has never done any weight training in her life time. To be able to hold on the pole with 2 arms and keep her body upside down (almost like a human flag) does require some arm strength. My question is, "Do you think her arm strength is different from those who builds big muscle from weight lifting?" What's the difference between these 2 kind of muscle? I know I'm stronger than her but I can't do what she did, why? Did she take "short cut" for her strength development? What might be that "short cut"? All my life I was working on big muscle, it seems to me that you don't need to have big muscle to do certain thing (such as "human flag").

What' your opinion on this?

[Frost]

I'm proud to present my daughter's excellent performance. Do you think CMA training can help you to achieve this kind of flexibility, balance, strength, endurence, body alignment, and inner connection?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WguirjwYE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8ztoWCtg88

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7Qrf5VfkMM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j35M4PGXU34

Onething in my mind is that I knew she has never done any weight training in her life time. To be able to hold on the pole with 2 arms and keep her body upside down (almost like a human flag) does require some arm strength. My question is, "Do you think her arm strength is different from those who builds big muscle from weight lifting?" What's the difference between these 2 kind of muscle? I know I'm stronger than her but I can't do what she did, why? Did she take "short cut" for her strength development? What might be that "short cut"? All my life I was working on big muscle, it seems to me that you don't need to have big muscle to do certain thing (such as "human flag").

What' your opinion on this?

my opinion for what its worth

1 stunning display from her
2 you need to read a few exercise science books and anatomy books

[bawang]

sorry for off topic but this is a good chance to discuss wu de. people ask what is wude. wude doesnt mean u go killing people or beating up people. u apply wude every day life the small things. i think u posting video of ur daughter pole dancing is lack of wude.

[Vajramusti]

I'm proud to present my daughter's excellent performance. Do you think CMA training can help you to achieve this kind of flexibility, balance, strength, endurence, body alignment, and inner connection?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WguirjwYE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8ztoWCtg88

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7Qrf5VfkMM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j35M4PGXU34

Onething in my mind is that I knew she has never done any weight training in her life time. To be able to hold on the pole with 2 arms and keep her body upside down (almost like a human flag) does require some arm strength. My question is, "Do you think her arm strength is different from those who builds big muscle from weight lifting?" What's the difference between these 2 kind of muscle? I know I'm stronger than her but I can't do what she did, why? Did she take "short cut" for her strength development? What might be that "short cut"? All my life I was working on big muscle, it seems to me that you don't need to have big muscle to do certain thing (such as "human flag").

What' your opinion on this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I only looked at the first clip. That is an amazing display of the coordinated usage of the human body.

Joy Chaudhuri

[mooyingmantis]

John,
Absolutely incredible! Congratulations to your daughter! She is quite an artist.

As for your muscle questions, I think what your daughter does requires a special kind of training. I have been doing bodybuilding on and off for nearly two decades and couldn't even hope to do the things your daughter does.

Gymnastics and dance requires some similar exercises to martial arts and bodybuilding. But even what may look like the same exercises are done in a little different way. I learned this from my daughter's sixteen years of ballet training.

[Scott R. Brown]

Well I have to say that I was fully prepared to be underwhelmed as with most things posted on this BB, but I have say you have a daughter well worth being proud of!

She has the muscle of an acrobat or gymnast. It is functional strength, even though it is an unusual function. It is mostly fast twitch muscle fibers. Because of her activity her body will naturally avoid bulk since bulk will inhibit her actions on the pole.

[kwaichang]

Sport specificity, such as Ma Bu training as opposed to squats with weights, 2 entirely different animals.:o

[YouKnowWho]

i think u posting video of ur daughter pole dancing is lack of wude.

I'm not old fashion. We can all appreciate good art. I don't see anything wrong with what she does. When she was in her 3rd grade, she won the Texas state writting contest twice in a role. One subject was "ants". Her writting started, "Run, Run, Run, The human is coming ...". Her whole writting starts from an ant's eye view to look at human being. The other subject was "treasure box". Her writting started, "Oneday I dig out a box in my back yard, there was some old pictures in it, I asked my mother ...". She is a very successful business woman in publish relationship (she writes to build positive image for companies). She had gradulated from the same university (UT Austin) as I did. She is a well educated business woman (not just a dancer as you may think).


Sport specificity, such as Ma Bu training as opposed to squats with weights, 2 entirely different animals.:o
I have the same feeling too.

[SPJ]

yes. it is quite a feat to lift one's own bodyweight.

I used to practice to walk on both hands but not any more. me got old and high blood pressure etc.

but i do lift weights still.

I had severe muscle loss due to diabetes. so I lift weight to gain some muscle mass back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR_fl_Cl-H4&feature=related

my thousand golds/daughter, she likes to sing. she is attending Cal Tech right now.

she wrote some songs, but she likes to keep them private.

congrat on your thousand golds achievement

she got your genes or something.

some people has some physical attributes or talents or born with them

some just born stronger than others

good horse, bad horse, sort of--

a horse that runs a thousand li is difficult to come by

so they said.

:)

[Scott R. Brown]

I'm not old fashion. We can all appreciate good art. I don't see anything wrong with what she does. When she was in her 3rd grade, she won the Texas state writting contest twice in a role. One subject was "ants". Her writting started, "Run, Run, Run, The human is coming ...". Her whole writting starts from an ant's eye view to look at human being. The other subject was "treasure box". Her writting started, "Oneday I dig out a box in my back yard, there was some old pictures in it, I asked my mother ...". She is a very successful business woman in publish relationship (she writes to build positive image for companies). She had gradulated from the same university (UT Austin) as I did. She is a well educated business woman (not just a dancer as you may think).

bawang is just being a rabble-rouser! Don't take most of what he says seriously. How can you take anyone seriously whose mother looks like Sammo Hung anyway?:eek:

I watched your daughter's interview and she is clearly well educated and thoughtful. She choreographed her own routine and even competed with an abdominal strain! I am proud of her and she isn't even MY daughter!

PLUS, she has only been training for 5 years AND this is only her second year of competition!:)

[mooyingmantis]

SPJ,
Was that your daughter in the video? Very talented! Wow, you peeps amaze me. :)

[Violent Designs]

I'm not old fashion. We can all appreciate good art. I don't see anything wrong with what she does. When she was in her 3rd grade, she won the Texas state writting contest twice in a role. One subject was "ants". Her writting started, "Run, Run, Run, The human is coming ...". Her whole writting starts from an ant's eye view to look at human being. The other subject was "treasure box". Her writting started, "Oneday I dig out a box in my back yard, there was some old pictures in it, I asked my mother ...". She is a very successful business woman in publish relationship (she writes to build positive image for companies). She had gradulated from the same university (UT Austin) as I did. She is a well educated business woman (not just a dancer as you may think).


I have the same feeling too.

Man, it's Bawang. The guy is an idiot who can't tell the difference between man and woman, did you expect anything more from him? :D



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR_fl_Cl-H4&feature=related


I always loved this song, especially the Chinese version. :cool:

[bawang]

im being completely serious here. im not insulting you, i dont insult fellow chinese brothers. except spj. this is 21st century you can do whatever you want. people walk down the street with holes on their pants. men fuk other men up the ass. this isnt about right and wrong, morality is relative. this is about loyalty.

its easy to throw out empty words. confucius say. ching chang chong, ching chong. its hard to live by them.

[wenshu]

Not only did it take me months to choreograph but I spent hours on the outfit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3FeXYW_Je8

[Jimbo]

I'm proud to present my daughter's excellent performance. Do you think CMA training can help you to achieve this kind of flexibility, balance, strength, endurence, body alignment, and inner connection?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WguirjwYE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8ztoWCtg88

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7Qrf5VfkMM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j35M4PGXU34

Onething in my mind is that I knew she has never done any weight training in her life time. To be able to hold on the pole with 2 arms and keep her body upside down (almost like a human flag) does require some arm strength. My question is, "Do you think her arm strength is different from those who builds big muscle from weight lifting?" What's the difference between these 2 kind of muscle? I know I'm stronger than her but I can't do what she did, why? Did she take "short cut" for her strength development? What might be that "short cut"? All my life I was working on big muscle, it seems to me that you don't need to have big muscle to do certain thing (such as "human flag").

What' your opinion on this?

That was a great performance.

Not to compare your daughter to an animal, but look at animals such as lions, tigers, leopards, apes/chimps, etc. They don't lift weights, but move their own body weight, yet they are extremely powerful. More powerful than any world-class bodybuilder.

Different types of strength for different types of endeavors. A man may spend his life body-building to look like a pro wrestler but be unable to match a feat like your daughter's. OTOH, doing what she does, doesn't necessarily equal the ability to bench press 350 lbs.

Perhaps a feat like your daughter's uses a more tendon-based strength, along with muscle strength?

[bawang]

its easy to talk on the internet forum to throw out words like tendon strength. internal power.alignment. colostomy bag. lineage. hairy testicles. bridging. . you guys can willingly believe in this bullsh1t and be completely humiliated by mma and follow the most backward and primitive practices in kung fu. you guys can spend half your life and thousands of dollars learn punching the air. but when it comes to honor and being a upright person, "im not old fashioned"

[Violent Designs]

lol bawang i love u.

[Scott R. Brown]

its easy to talk on the internet forum to throw out words like tendon strength. internal power.alignment. colostomy bag. lineage. hairy testicles. bridging. . you guys can willingly believe in this bullsh1t and be completely humiliated by mma and follow the most backward and primitive practices in kung fu. you guys can spend half your life and thousands of dollars learn punching the air. but when it comes to honor and being a upright person, "im not old fashioned"

Yeah! But your mom will always have hairy balls and look like Sammo Hung!

Where is the honor in that? :confused:

[Violent Designs]

Yeah! But your mom will always have hairy balls and look like Sammo Hung!

Where is the honor in that? :confused:

bawang's mother is a gay

[bawang]

Yeah! But your mom will always have hairy balls and look like Sammo Hung!

Where is the honor in that? :confused:
my mother looks like sammo hung. your mother looks like william hung.



bawang's mother is a gay

choy lee fut is popular in california because only gays like martial art named after a vegetable. FACT

[Scott R. Brown]

my mother looks like sammo hung. your mother looks like william hung.

My mother is not strong like yours, but she was a cheerleader!

Rah Rah Rah!:p

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xIoI9sDwec&feature=related

she is from singapore.

she speaks with british/amoy/taiwanese accent.

oh, she is not my daughter.

liang ju, qian li ju, nan qiu.

良驹 千里驹 难求

there are horses born with good genetics, they runs like a wind with no effort.

there are horses born with not so much strength. you may try it all you want.

you only tire the horse without making it running any faster than it could.

thus the saying, good people or good horse comes once only in a thousand years

or something like that.

--

:)

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ht1ZRura4E&feature=related

she sings "looking/expecting at spring wind"

a taiwanese folk song written in 1930s.

:cool:

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQIiBL0Il54&feature=related

the 1930's record

the 19 year old chun chun sang the original version.

back to regular discussion of muscles, strength and flexibility.

:cool:

[mickey]

Geetings,

I always felt that pole dancing was a fantastic discipline that was done in strange places.

Your daughter's performance was excellent, YouKnowWho. And, by the way, she is quite beautiful. I hope she keeps going with the art. By the way, she demonstrates an embodiment of kung fu that many only talk about.

To your question, TCMA has gotten away from that kind of training. Quite a few of the Northern styles trained gymnastics beyond the simple forward flip, cartwheel, and butterfly kicks. There was tumbling, floorwork. If you ever see an early picture of Lau Fat Man, you could easily observe that the guy was a ROCK and that his build was not for looks. Unfortunately, this discipline is only maintained by the Chinese opera companies.



mickey

[Hardwork108]

I'm proud to present my daughter's excellent performance. Do you think CMA training can help you to achieve this kind of flexibility, balance, strength, endurence, body alignment, and inner connection?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2WguirjwYE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8ztoWCtg88

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7Qrf5VfkMM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j35M4PGXU34

Onething in my mind is that I knew she has never done any weight training in her life time. To be able to hold on the pole with 2 arms and keep her body upside down (almost like a human flag) does require some arm strength. My question is, "Do you think her arm strength is different from those who builds big muscle from weight lifting?" What's the difference between these 2 kind of muscle? I know I'm stronger than her but I can't do what she did, why? Did she take "short cut" for her strength development? What might be that "short cut"? All my life I was working on big muscle, it seems to me that you don't need to have big muscle to do certain thing (such as "human flag").

What' your opinion on this?

Great videos...which point to other ways of gaining strength that go beyond, or do not use weightlifting to create strength, power and efficient body unity.

In the past, I have come into conflict with various "modern" members of this forum when I had stated that the Wing Chun and Chow Gar training I received could give one potent power and strength, without using weight lifting exercises.

This concept was even more incredible with the Chow Gar approach, which is not something that is taught very openly.

I believe that besides the Chow Gar and WC approaches, there may be others as well.

[Hardwork108]

That was a great performance.

Not to compare your daughter to an animal, but look at animals such as lions, tigers, leopards, apes/chimps, etc. They don't lift weights, but move their own body weight, yet they are extremely powerful. More powerful than any world-class bodybuilder.

Jimbo, you have brought up a fundamental point. There is kung fu school of thought that believes that humans have lost the natural body unity that gives animals so powerful, relatively speaking, that is. Some lesser known kung fu training methodologies, including the internals aim to create this kind of body unity for humans.

The training that I am talking about is very rare, and I in the past, have had great arguments regarding this subject with some of these forum's kung fu "gods", who see Western style weight training, including the Olympic one, as the only way.

Suffice to say that the TCMA methodology in question has been totally missed by the Western physical training science. So, the only way to train this is to find a genuine sifu in styles such as Chow Gar, Pak Mei and Dragon. There are others styles out there too, but I think a lot of them may have lost these methodologies through over secretiveness and the Mcdojo phenomenom.

[wenshu]

Did you really have to say it twice?

It is not like we haven't seen these exact same words from you a million times before. I'm fairly certain everyone is familiar with where you stand on the issue.

Shouldn't you be off somewhere chain punching a conspiracy theory.

[Hardwork108]

Did you really have to say it twice?

It is not like we haven't seen these exact same words from you a million times before. I'm fairly certain everyone is familiar with where you stand on the issue.

Shouldn't you be off somewhere chain punching a conspiracy theory.

:confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Even in this day and age people tend to confuse strength training with bodybuilding.
They shouldn't.
Gynmasts do ST ( Strength training), Powerlifters do ST, Bodybuilders to ST, every pro athlete does ST, and so forth.
Very few people outside of BB or those that ST to get bigger muscles actually do the type of ST needed to build big muscles ( and the diet that goes with it), ie: Hypertrophy oriented ST.
Frost is right John, get a few good books on anatomy and strength building.

Specificity is the crucial element in ST, perhaps more so than any other activity.

Your daughters strength and muscle development, ALONG with her DIET ( funny how people always forget that part) and here predisposed genetics, are what got her looking the way she does.

This lady is a female powerlifter:
http://www.no-pain-no-gain.com/images/stephanie%20kubik%202.jpg

And so is this one:
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/FemaleWeightlifting.jpg

This one is a BB:
http://i.b5z.net/i/u/230085/i/glendapic2_ezr.jpg

This one does both:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_49Bcbuc6ngM/SwWYqqz9H9I/AAAAAAAAAiY/65ad2ygPodw/s1600/Aneta+Florczyk+4.jpg

These one are gynmasts:
http://a.abcnews.com/images/GMA/abc_gymnasts_080811_mn.jpg

And so is she:
http://www.femalemuscle.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/jade_barbosa.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

The type of muscles "LOOK" you get is based on they type of ST you are doing, it's just that simple.
Muscle is muscle, HOW it is trained, along with diet, will dictate how it looks AND what it is strongest at.

[wenshu]

Wang Shifu, you should try an experiment. See how much your daughter can deadlift. (Assuming qualified instruction on proper form)

I'll give 2:1 that she can move more plates than the entire Wing Chun forum combined.

[David Jamieson]

One can have much muscle and little control over it.

It's like having a lambo and not really knowing how to drive it right.

Congrats to your daughter on her win John. Good grace and strength there.

[Hardwork108]

The type of muscles "LOOK" you get is based on they type of ST you are doing, it's just that simple.
Muscle is muscle, HOW it is trained, along with diet, will dictate how it looks AND what it is strongest at.

Agreed and agreed, but there are other ways to create strength. The TCMA internals deal with that other way, and that has not got much to do with chi development, not at least to start with.:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Agreed and agreed, but there are other ways to create strength. The TCMA internals deal with that other way, and that has not got much to do with chi development, not at least to start with.:)

Well, when that is proven in a laboratory or in comparative analysis, then I'll give you that.
Till then, when it comes to building the strength of the muscle, which is involved in EVERY movement we make, I will stick to what has been proven over and over and over, even in China, to be the best way to build muscular strength, endurance and explosive power and that is progressive resistence training.

Like I said a few times before, if I find myself in a situation that requires the use of strong muscles to save my life, I would prefer to have with my a strong man, rather than someone that has spent the last 30 years doing IMA and can't even deadlfit his bodyweight.

[David Jamieson]

deadlift?

press man.

a dude in good shape should be able to bench press his own body weight at least once. If no can do, should be able to do with a short ramp up in less than 30 days.

deadlift should see you lifting 1.5x your bodyweight. lol on the first go.

structural knowledge aside and assumed.

[Lucas]

was watching "destroyed in seconds" awesome show by the way....anyhow there was a helicopter crash in a ditch in hawaii, dudes buddy was flying...big ol hawaiin guy came over and lifted the helicopter up to get dude out.

only way that happened was because the guy was a lifter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

deadlift?

press man.

a dude in good shape should be able to bench press his own body weight at least once. If no can do, should be able to do with a short ramp up in less than 30 days.

deadlift should see you lifting 1.5x your bodyweight. lol on the first go.

structural knowledge aside and assumed.

I used the DL because the DL is one of those "natural" lifts that everyone needs to be able to do, we DL things all the freaking time in our day to day.

[David Jamieson]

was watching "destroyed in seconds" awesome show by the way....anyhow there was a helicopter crash in a ditch in hawaii, dudes buddy was flying...big ol hawaiin guy came over and lifted the helicopter up to get dude out.

only way that happened was because the guy was a lifter.

well, maybe not. helo's don't weigh much and you did say he was a big ol Hawaiian guy so I'm gonna assume he probably also outweighs the chopper. lol

[Hardwork108]

Well, when that is proven in a laboratory or in comparative analysis, then I'll give you that.
Till then, when it comes to building the strength of the muscle, which is involved in EVERY movement we make, I will stick to what has been proven over and over and over, even in China, to be the best way to build muscular strength, endurance and explosive power and that is progressive resistence training.

The methodology I am discussing is not taught openly even in China. Also, it does not take away anything from the effectiveness of the methodology that you describe, however it is still an effective alternative that will last you into year later years.


Like I said a few times before, if I find myself in a situation that requires the use of strong muscles to save my life, I would prefer to have with my a strong man, rather than someone that has spent the last 30 years doing IMA and can't even deadlfit his bodyweight.
I would agree with you as far as most people claiming internal MA knowledge are concerned.

As I said, the methodology is rare. I have only come across one person who taught this. There is another whom I know of who probably knows it, but I am not sure, but he certainly does not teach it, openly at least. So, that is ONLY two people I know. And I do my best to research as much as I can about the TCMAs.

So, we are talking about a rare methodology which should be investigated by those who want to research the TCMAs to a deeper level.:)

[Lucas]

well, maybe not. helo's don't weigh much and you did say he was a big ol Hawaiian guy so I'm gonna assume he probably also outweighs the chopper. lol

hahahaha!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

The methodology I am discussing is not taught openly even in China. Also, it does not take away anything from the effectiveness of the methodology that you describe, however it is still an effective alternative that will last you into year later years.


I would agree with you as far as most people claiming internal MA knowledge are concerned.

As I said, the methodology is rare. I have only come across one person who taught this. There is another whom I know of who probably knows it, but I am not sure, but he certainly does not teach it, openly at least. So, that is ONLY two people I know. And I do my best to research as much as I can about the TCMAs.

So, we are talking about a rare methodology which should be investigated by those who want to research the TCMAs to a deeper level.:)

ALL IMA methodologies were investigate in China, don't think for a minute that they weren't.
It's actually well documented, if you can get you hands on the info.
The chinese were driven to give their athletes the best possible chances to win in athletic competitions and outside of the use of some herbs like cordyceps ( a mushroom) and some other stuff, they found nothing of value for their athletic program.
In regards to the subject at hand - strength development- the studies and science is clear and has been for sometime.

If you choose not to believe me that is fine, I respect that, I am just stating what is.

Trust me ( or don't) the fact is that IF any IMA methdology could have given the chinese results in athletic competitions, they would have been adopted and guard with even MORE secrecy than anything in the TCMA.

The fact that some Chinese athletes got caught for performance enhancers and the discovery of the potential effects of things like cordyceps, makes a clear statement.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Again, focusing on the facts- progressive resistence strength training has been shown over and over to be the best possible way t increase stength.
Do the study yourself:
Do one year of ST and see what you can lift and compare it to one year of IMA work.

[Frost]

ALL IMA methodologies were investigate in China, don't think for a minute that they weren't.
It's actually well documented, if you can get you hands on the info.
The chinese were driven to give their athletes the best possible chances to win in athletic competitions and outside of the use of some herbs like cordyceps ( a mushroom) and some other stuff, they found nothing of value for their athletic program.
In regards to the subject at hand - strength development- the studies and science is clear and has been for sometime.

If you choose not to believe me that is fine, I respect that, I am just stating what is.

Trust me ( or don't) the fact is that IF any IMA methdology could have given the chinese results in athletic competitions, they would have been adopted and guard with even MORE secrecy than anything in the TCMA.

The fact that some Chinese athletes got caught for performance enhancers and the discovery of the potential effects of things like cordyceps, makes a clear statement.

i pointed this out to this muppet a year ago, if the methods worked that well how come the chinese athletes prefer modern ST work......of coursehe chinese dont know the secret stuff, only a certain few people know...and he happens to be one :rolleyes:

[Frost]

Again, focusing on the facts- progressive resistence strength training has been shown over and over to be the best possible way t increase stength.
Do the study yourself:
Do one year of ST and see what you can lift and compare it to one year of IMA work.

studies dont matter, scienctific work doesnt matter because only a few know the real way to build strength and they dont share with anyone...not even the chinese people (but they will share with HW108) :confused:

[Hardwork108]

ALL IMA methodologies were investigate in China, don't think for a minute that they weren't.
It's actually well documented, if you can get you hands on the info.
The chinese were driven to give their athletes the best possible chances to win in athletic competitions and outside of the use of some herbs like cordyceps ( a mushroom) and some other stuff, they found nothing of value for their athletic program.
The "nothing of value" findings may have more to do with the Chinese government's general attitude towards traditional kung fu training (as opposed to modern Wu Shu), than actual serious investigations. I am just wondering.....

Also, competitive athletic programs want quick results, while many Internal methodologies will not be "time efficient" in that regard.



In regards to the subject at hand - strength development- the studies and science is clear and has been for sometime.

If you choose not to believe me that is fine, I respect that, I am just stating what is.

Again, I am not disputing the effectiveness of your ST methodology. I am simply pointing out that there are other less known ways, that are also valid. I am saying that because I have seen it with my own eyes, so to speak.


Trust me ( or don't) the fact is that IF any IMA methdology could have given the chinese results in athletic competitions, they would have been adopted and guard with even MORE secrecy than anything in the TCMA.
I agree and that would certainly be the case if the Internals could give them short term results required for competitive sports.


The fact that some Chinese athletes got caught for performance enhancers and the discovery of the potential effects of things like cordyceps, makes a clear statement.

The fact is that not all Chinese know kung fu.;):)

[sanjuro_ronin]

The "nothing of value" findings may have more to do with the Chinese government's general attitude towards traditional kung fu training (as opposed to modern Wu Shu), than actual serious investigations. I am just wondering.....

Also, competitive athletic programs want quick results, while many Internal methodologies will not be "time efficient" in that regard.




Again, I am not disputing the effectiveness of your ST methodology. I am simply pointing out that there are other less known ways, that are also valid. I am saying that because I have seen it with my own eyes, so to speak.


I agree and that would certainly be the case if the Internals could give them short term results required for competitive sports.



The fact is that not all Chinese know kung fu.;):)

It is an erroneous belief to think that sport performance is focused ONLY on the short term gains or the quick turnaround, that is incorrect, but even if it was correct, the fact that it takes longer for method "I" to get results than method "T" would make method "I"inferior anyways.

The chinese government cares very little about wushu or TCMA or anything else, they care about results and like any other athletic program, if they found that standing on one leg and quacking like a duck would lead to cutting 1 second of the 100 meter sprint then the sprinters would be doing just that !
:D

I do agree though that there are other methods of building strength that are also effective.

[Hardwork108]

It is an erroneous belief to think that sport performance is focused ONLY on the short term gains or the quick turnaround, that is incorrect,

I did not mean ONLY, but the competetiveness of the sports arena, combined with the relatively short athletic careers of exponents, will demand a time efficient ST methodology, in favor of something that can take much longer.



but even if it was correct, the fact that it takes longer for method "I" to get results than method "T" would make method "I"inferior anyways.
Inferior as far as sport competetiveness is concerned, of course. However, for many of us Kung fu training is not for sports competition purposes, meaning that the longer term benefits of Internal training become more relevant, specially when one considers their longer lasting effects and benefits into old age.


The chinese government cares very little about wushu or TCMA or anything else, they care about results and like any other athletic program, if they found that standing on one leg and quacking like a duck would lead to cutting 1 second of the 100 meter sprint then the sprinters would be doing just that !
:D
I tend to agree with your statement. In my previous post, I was just wondering wether there was a little bit of left over aversion to TCMA training within Chinese government circles.


I do agree though that there are other methods of building strength that are also effective.

And all I am saying is that some of those methods are embedded within traditional kung fu Internal training methodologies that are not so well known.:)

[Hardwork108]

i pointed this out to this muppet a year ago, if the methods worked that well how come the chinese athletes prefer modern ST work......of coursehe chinese dont know the secret stuff, only a certain few people know...

Well, genuine kung fu training has been like that for centuries. I promise you that if and when you start training authentic kung fu, in an authentic kwoon, it will all become clearer to you.




and he happens to be one :rolleyes:

The secret in that regard is to find a real kwoon and dedicate time and effort, which would mean that in your case, you would need an attention span that is superior to that of a rabbit.;)

[Hardwork108]

studies dont matter, scienctific work doesnt matter because only a few know the real way to build strength and they dont share with anyone...not even the chinese people (but they will share with HW108) :confused:

You know, for someone who has never actually practiced authentic TCMA, you have clocked up a lot of posts, in this KUNG FU FORUM......

I am guessing that the thirst of the forum's knucklehead MMA community for Olympic Weight lifting knowledge has been keeping you busy......:D

[B-Rad]

Well, genuine kung fu training has been like that for centuries. I promise you that if and when you start training authentic kung fu, in an authentic kwoon, it will all become clearer to you.





The secret in that regard is to find a real kwoon and dedicate time and effort, which would mean that in your case, you would need an attention span that is superior to that of a rabbit.;)

Why would someone spend a significant amount of time seeking out a traditional secret strength training method when there is a proven quick and effective method of building strength available openly for free? :confused: The free and open method can even give lasting results that last well into old age if you put in the time and effort. What is the advantage of the "secret" TCMA training? I don't think you're effectively communicating the advantage of this "secret" training. Or are you simply saying it is an alternative rather than superior method?

[Frost]

You know, for someone who has never actually practiced authentic TCMA, you have clocked up a lot of posts, in this KUNG FU FORUM......

I am guessing that the thirst of the forum's knucklehead MMA community for Olympic Weight lifting knowledge has been keeping you busy......:D

Yep keep telling yourself that basement boy…does it ever occur to you that not everyone on the forum who disagrees with you has just trained bad TCMA, has it ever occurred to you that your very very limited exposure to any TCMA might really not be that much to anyone on here

Of course not because you have the real goods right…..funny how you have it but no one else, not david ross, ronin or anyone else has it just you (of course you never actually completed your studies or even actually studied what you talk about in depth…but you know you know it exists ) :)

[Frost]

Well, genuine kung fu training has been like that for centuries. I promise you that if and when you start training authentic kung fu, in an authentic kwoon, it will all become clearer to you.





The secret in that regard is to find a real kwoon and dedicate time and effort, which would mean that in your case, you would need an attention span that is superior to that of a rabbit.;)

What like the couple of years you trained before being banished off to your basement to train on your own you mean :eek:

[Frost]

Why would someone spend a significant amount of time seeking out a traditional secret strength training method when there is a proven quick and effective method of building strength available openly for free? :confused: The free and open method can even give lasting results that last well into old age if you put in the time and effort. What is the advantage of the "secret" TCMA training? I don't think you're effectively communicating the advantage of this "secret" training. Or are you simply saying it is an alternative rather than superior method?

The other problem with his logic (if you can call it that) is that he calls it different, superior etc but has no knowledge of the methods he is comparing it to, but then bashes those that do when they talk about it saying they don’t know what they are talking about…oh the irony

[Lucas]

Jack Lalanne won.

[Hardwork108]

Why would someone spend a significant amount of time seeking out a traditional secret strength training method when there is a proven quick and effective method of building strength available openly for free? :confused:
Let us just say that each method will have its own advantages. Besides, if one is training authentic kung fu, wouldn't using authentic TCMA methodologies, or genuine variations of, be a logical path to take?


The free and open method can even give lasting results that last well into old age if you put in the time and effort. What is the advantage of the "secret" TCMA training?
It is my belief that the Internal TCMA methodology will give you much longer lasting results than the modern Strength training.



I don't think you're effectively communicating the advantage of this "secret" training. Or are you simply saying it is an alternative rather than superior method?

I am saying that it is simply an alternative that most people will not know about. Wether one system is better than the other will depend on what one is trying to get out of it, meaning that each one is superior to the other, but in different ways.:)

[Hardwork108]

What like the couple of years you trained before being banished off to your basement to train on your own you mean :eek:

It seems that my "couple of years of (kung fu) training", has given me a knowledge base that the "kung fu" tagged MMA-ists such as yourself can only dream of......

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is my belief that the Internal TCMA methodology will give you much longer lasting results than the modern Strength training.

Since you don't know enough about them ( modern ST protocols), how can you say that?

[Frost]

Since you don't know enough about them ( modern ST protocols), how can you say that?

Serious question Ronin, why are you actually asking this question………….why are you bothering

[Hardwork108]

The other problem with his logic (if you can call it that) is that he calls it different, superior etc but has no knowledge of the methods he is comparing it to, but then bashes those that do when they talk about it saying they don’t know what they are talking about…oh the irony

I don't recall referring to the internal methodology as superior in this discussion. However, I will say that mastering the the Internal power building/body unity approach may open the door to those kung fu techniques that the MMA modernists refer to as "none-functional".;)

[Frost]

It seems that my "couple of years of (kung fu) training", has given me a knowledge base that the "kung fu" tagged MMA-ists such as yourself can only dream of......

yep because non of us MMA guys have seen or studied hakka arts or internal arts for longer than you have done TMA......:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Serious question Ronin, why are you actually asking this question………….why are you bothering

HW8 and I have made our peace awhile back, we found a mutual understanding and I have chosen to not only give him the benefit of the doubt in regards to certain things, but I also believe that his views are common in some circles of TCMA and that by addressing his views we are also helping others with the same views.

[YouKnowWho]

There are some difference between The way that TCMA guys build muscle. I go to the 24 hours Fitness Center every week. Most of the guys there always ask me how did I build my leg muscle so nicely that most of the body builders don't even have. It's hard for me to explain to them. I do horse stance training, 2 men drills training, solo drills training, stretching, single head, long distance running, ... I don't know which training or a mix of all my training gave me my leg muscle shape. Besides the single head and 2 men drills, most of the training that I did was using my own body weight instead of external weight. May be to use your own body weight (such as push up) and to use external weight (such as bench press) can create different kind of muscle.

[wenshu]

I don't recall referring to the internal methodology as superior in this discussion. However, I will say that mastering the the Internal power building/body unity approach may open the door to those kung fu techniques that the MMA modernists refer to as "none-functional".;)

Do you have anything to offer to the discussion aside from the constant repetition of purposefully oblique references to vague generalizations?

As if apparent obfuscation always presumes depth behind it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are some difference between The way that TCMA guys build muscle. I go to the 24 hours Fitness Center every week. Most of the guys there always ask me how did I build my leg muscle so nicely that most of the body builders don't even have. It's hard for me to explain to them. I do horse stance training, 2 men drills training, solo drills training, stretching, single head, long distance running, ... I don't know which training or a mix of all my training gave me my leg muscle shape. Besides the single head and 2 men drills, most of the training that I did was using my own body weight instead of external weight. May be to use your own body weight (such as push up) and to use external weight (such as bench press) can create different kind of muscle.

You should know John that the "LOOK" of any muscle is purely genetic.
Regardless of how you train a muscle, its shape is genetic.
Genes also dictate the % of slow and fast twich muscle fibres which will dictate how your muscles react to certain types of ST exercises, that is why some guys get great leg development with high reps ( muscular endurance exercises) and others with low reps.

[YouKnowWho]

Internal power building/body unity approach
I do agree hat TCMA has good training in "body unification - all body parts moves and stop at the same time". Sometime a strong internal stucture just can not be seen from the outside and can only be felt when 2 body make contact.

[wenshu]

There are some difference between The way that TCMA guys build muscle. I go to the 24 hours Fitness Center every week. Most of the guys there always ask me how did I build my leg muscle so nicely that most of the body builders don't even have. It's hard for me to explain to them. I do horse stance training, 2 men drills training, solo drills training, stretching, single head, long distance running, ... I don't know which training or a mix of all my training gave me my leg muscle shape. Besides the single head and 2 men drills, most of the training that I did was using my own body weight instead of external weight. May be push up (use your own body weight) and bench press (use external weight) can create different kind of muscle.

The issue is not so much different kinds of muscle.

We could get into the whole "type I fast twitch. . ." kinesthetic terminology, but I think the issue is really more related to motor skills/neuromuscular pathway development.

The links are wikipedia, so critical thinking is required, but some sources are listed so. .
Open_kinetic_chain_exercises (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_kinetic_chain_exercises)

Closed_kinetic_chain_exercises (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_kinetic_chain_exercises)

Someone who can back squat 300 kilos may not be able to do one single leg squat. Despite possessing the raw strength required they may not have developed the skill, balance and flexibility required to do so.

I doubt he developed this level of strength by meditation, visualization, breathing, isometric contractions and clenching his teeth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whJpFP3bG18&feature=player_embedded

[Hardwork108]

Of course not because you have the real goods right…..funny how you have it but no one else, not david ross, ronin or anyone else has it just you (of course you never actually completed your studies or even actually studied what you talk about in depth…but you know you know it exists ) :)

Why bring David Ross, a kick boxing coach, into a discussion involving rare TCMA methodologies.:confused:

Well, I guess if you are courageous enough to go way above your head and participate then there is no harm into bringing another MMA-ist into it.......LOL!

[Hardwork108]

yep because non of us MMA guys have seen or studied hakka arts or internal arts for longer than you have done TMA......:)

If you had REALLY studied the Hakka arts to a high level, then you would not be doing MMA now, except as a hobby perhaps, but even that would be unlikely....

You Frost, have really no idea of the depth of these arts!

[Hardwork108]

Since you don't know enough about them ( modern ST protocols), how can you say that?
I am basing what I said from what I have been told by people with experience on the two sides.

Perhaps you can help me with a query. Lets say a man has done all the external modern ST exercises that need to be done to maximize his strength, including the relevant weight training exercises, for 10 years, none stop. Then he suddenly stops doing absolutely any type of exercises. How long before he looses his muscle mass and the related strength? One year? Two Years? I have been told that usually in one year or so a lot of muscle mass starts to disappear, if memory serves me correctly. I am asking this question because I am genuinely interested.:)

Of course, I appreciate that there are other factors to take into consideration, for example, individual genetics, diets, etc.

[Hardwork108]

I do agree hat TCMA has good training in "body unification - all body parts moves and stop at the same time". Sometime a strong internal stucture just can not be seen from the outside and can only be felt when 2 body make contact.

Agreed. The problem is explaining this to people whose only point of reference, as far as strength and power building is concerned, is Olympic Weight Training methodologies. Such people see "the new" as the "best", and the Traditional as "out of date" and "useless".

People who are like this, are missing a lot of TCMA treasures.....

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am basing what I said from what I have been told by people with experience on the two sides.

Perhaps you can help me with a query. Lets say a man has done all the external modern ST exercises that need to be done to maximize his strength, including the relevant weight training exercises, for 10 years, none stop. Then he suddenly stops doing absolutely any type of exercises. How long before he looses his muscle mass and the related strength? One year? Two Years? I have been told that usually in one year or so a lot of muscle mass starts to disappear, if memory serves me correctly. I am asking this question because I am genuinely interested.:)

Of course, I appreciate that there are other factors to take into consideration, for example, individual genetics, diets, etc.

It would depend on diet and activity level.
Muscle mass increase is ONE type of ST protocol.
Depending on what people use it for ( and the crap they may put into their bodies) it can be quite dramatic ( as in the case of drug laddened pro bodybuilders) to barely noticible as in the case of the majority of ST athletes.

I took 6 months off once and lost almost no muscle mass and only about 10% of my strength and even at that level, it was higher than the average person.

That said, people that tend to train for MASS well have their mass decrease or be replaced by fat if they don't adjust their eating habits.

Remember:
Isokinetics, isometrics are also ST protocols.

[Hardwork108]

Do you have anything to offer to the discussion aside from the constant repetition of purposefully oblique references to vague generalizations?

It seems vague to you because you are unfamiliar with the methodolgies discussed. Those who have trained it will know instantly what I am talking about.

Having said that, I will also state that detailed references to outsiders are discouraged by schools that practice some these methodologies. This may sound corny to you, but you can take it, or leave it....




As if apparent obfuscation always presumes depth behind it.

No matter how this subject matter is discussed, it will have no barings on the valid profoundness of these methodologies!

[wenshu]

What exactly is so modern about lifting heavy objects for increasing strength?

The only thing that is modern about this is the internal/external distinction.

[David Jamieson]

HW8 and I have made our peace awhile back, we found a mutual understanding and I have chosen to not only give him the benefit of the doubt in regards to certain things, but I also believe that his views are common in some circles of TCMA and that by addressing his views we are also helping others with the same views.

lol.

I on the other hand placed him on ignore.

You know, what with the batcrap crazy assertions over and over again. :D

[David Jamieson]

What exactly is so modern about lifting heavy objects for increasing strength?

The only thing that is modern about this is the internal/external distinction.

You win a cigar and a banana for this observation. :p

[Hardwork108]

lol.

I on the other hand placed him on ignore.

You know, what with the batcrap crazy assertions over and over again. :D

You put me on "ignore", because I made you look stupid, one time too many....:D

Of course, most of us here know that sometime you FORGET that you have me on "ignore" and answer my posts....LOL,LOL,LOL!

Jesus....you can't make this stuff up....LOL! This forum is amazing...

[David Jamieson]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/kunglek/demotivational-posters-professor-toddles.jpg

[Hardwork108]

What exactly is so modern about lifting heavy objects for increasing strength?

You seem to be new to the martial arts. What I was saying in regards to modern weight lifting, has less to do with the act lifting weights and more to do with the NEW and "scientific" methodologies used in regards to weight training.


The only thing that is modern about this is the internal/external distinction.

I would hazard a guess that the distinction was made to enlighten those who were not aware of the existance of the Internal methodologies, which wether you like it or not, exist and are distinct from the external ones. Hence this discussion.....

[Hardwork108]

You win a cigar and a banana for this observation. :p

You have also demonstrated your depth, or lack of, knowledge regarding the distinctions between the internal and external approaches to strength/power and body unity development.

Not that I am surprised, as we live in the Mcdojo era.....that means interacting more and more with kung fu clueless people like you is becoming a common occurance.

[Hardwork108]

HW8 and I have made our peace awhile back, we found a mutual understanding and I have chosen to not only give him the benefit of the doubt in regards to certain things, but I also believe that his views are common in some circles of TCMA and that by addressing his views we are also helping others with the same views.
Respects...:)

[Violent Designs]

What exactly is so modern about lifting heavy objects for increasing strength?

The only thing that is modern about this is the internal/external distinction.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95503

Chinese stone lock training archive

[wenshu]

What I was saying in regards to modern weight lifting, has less to do with the act lifting weights and more to do with the NEW and "scientific" methodologies used in regards to weight training.


Such as?

You offer no concrete examples, only vague dismissals while hiding behind the "closed door" straw man.

You are just talking in circles.

[wenshu]

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95503

Chinese stone lock training archive

I wish you could get those in the U.S.

Kettlebells do ok approximating shi suo, but it is just not the same.

I saw some forum post where someone fabricated their own but it was fairly labor intensive.

[Hardwork108]

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95503

Chinese stone lock training archive

You will never defeat Frost's super duper modern, brand new, Olympic Weight training methods...Ya hear me!!!!! They are better becaue they are Modern and "scientific", not like that old kung fu stuff that is out of date!!!! Ya hear me!!!! The new Western stuff is the best, the old Oriental stuff is out of date...everyone here must train modern Olympic Weight training and then go on to practice BJJ, which is the best art for fighting (and male bonding, apparently:D), Ya hear!!!

The MMA knuckleheads have spoken!!!!:D

[Hardwork108]

Such as?

You should ask that question of Frost who insists that the Modern Weigh training approach is more effective. Ask him what he means by modern?


You offer no concrete examples, only vague dismissals while hiding behind the "closed door" straw man.

I say what I say because they are facts. You not being familiar with such facts does not make them less of a fact!


You are just talking in circles.

Understand the circles and you will understand kung fu (however, I am not holding my breath)......

[YouKnowWho]

super duper modern, brand new, Olympic Weight training methods...
There is a difference between "direct training" and "indirect training". TCMA likes to use "direct training" approach. Here are some examples for "direct training".

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1716/singleheadleglift.jpg

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/7338/singleheadlegtwist.jpg

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/7958/canebundle.jpg

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/4936/pulley2.jpg

The following are quoted from someone's else opinion:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To train the ability to perform a technique requires actually performing that technique. The best way to do that is to do it on a person. If you cannot find a person, find a piece of equipment that closely resembles what you would do with that person (for example, single head weight for leg twist). If you do general (either isolated or full body) resistance training it will make you stronger, but that strength will not necessarily transfer over to the technique you wish to perform.

[wenshu]

Understand the circles and you will understand kung fu (however, I am not holding my breath)......

Dude, your non-sequiturs aren't even any good.

I imagine you feel it is an effective way of dodging the question without having to explicate further upon your vague contrarian delusions of grandeur.

[Hardwork108]

Weight training in kung fu.

It is my understanding that traditionally stone locks and kettle bells were used to train strength in the more external style of kung fu. Many internal schools avoided such training. Even so, they would sometimes test their strength using "weights". That is when the correct tendon and muscle development was achieved, together with internal body unity, through specific Internal methodologies, then weights were sometimes used to "test" the power and the integrity of the body structure, among other things.

[Hardwork108]

Dude, your non-sequiturs aren't even any good.

I imagine you feel it is an effective way of dodging the question without having to explicate further upon your vague contrarian delusions of grandeur.

What is your question?:confused:

[Hardwork108]

There is difference between "direct training" and "indirect training". TCMA likes to use "direct training" approach. Here are some examples for "direct training".

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1716/singleheadleglift.jpg

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/7338/singleheadlegtwist.jpg

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/7958/canebundle.jpg

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/4936/pulley2.jpg


YouKnowWho, I was just being ironic with that last post I made regarding the "superiority" of Frost's modern training.

Also, I can't access the links. I believe that I need to register in that website first to be able to see the links. I'll see what I can do.:)


To train the ability to perform a technique requires actually performing that technique. The best way to do that is to do it on a person. If you cannot find a person, find a piece of equipment that closely resembles what you would do with that person (single head weight). If you do general (either isolated or full body) resistance training it will make you stronger, but that strength will not necessarily transfer over to the technique you wish to perform.

I agree with this. In my humble opinion, there are many different types of resistance exercises, some of which may be more helpful if one needs to perform certain techniques with specific characteristics. That is why I believe that each person should investigate his own chosen art's approach before investigating other strength/power development methodologies.

[YouKnowWho]

I was just being ironic with that last post I made regarding the "superiority" of Frost's modern training.

I was trying to point out the "intention" of the TCMA weight training. The intention is not trying to build up big muscle but to "enhance" certain skill.

No matter how many reps that you work out on this drill, you won't be able to build big muscle.

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/7958/canebundle.jpg

[Hardwork108]

I was trying to point out the "intention" of the TCMA weight training. The intention is not trying to build up big muscle but to "enhance" certain skill.

Oh, I see. Sorry, I misunderstood you before, and yes I agree.


No matter how many reps that you work out on this drill, you won't be able to build big muscle.

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/7958/canebundle.jpg

I am still having trouble accessing these links..:(

[David Jamieson]

I was trying to point out the "intention" of the TCMA weight training. The intention is not trying to build up big muscle but to "enhance" certain skill.

No matter how many reps that you work out on this drill, you won't be able to build big muscle.

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/7958/canebundle.jpg

The side effect is muscle growth.
Task specific exercises with weight are hugely important to martial artists.
body building is nice, but it doesn't give the strength of replicated or real farm or fishery work. :p

or, in a much more useful sense, throwing dummies, weighted throw drills grapple strength development with chains/ropes/tractor tire

grip strength development with sledge and tire hitting.

carrying exercises for endurance and stamina such as drag a bag, fireman hustle etc.

all this weight lifting is extremely useful to a martial artist because not only do you develop the martial skill, the residual strength will serve you throughout life. :)

and yes wrestling develops huge strength in a person. there is no denying that as a side effect of grapple work done constantly and consistently.

wreslters that do lift, do so so they can be even stronger on top of that.lol

[Lucas]

Oh, I see. Sorry, I misunderstood you before, and yes I agree.



I am still having trouble accessing these links..:(

the links are all shuai jiao equipment training. highlighting that the weight training is in direct connection to the techniques you will be using in your martial art...

thats one of the cool tings about cma...a lot of the weight training is like this.

[wenshu]

Weight training in kung fu.

It is my understanding that traditionally stone locks and kettle bells were used to train strength in the more external style of kung fu. Many internal schools avoided such training. Even so, they would sometimes test their strength using "weights". That is when the correct tendon and muscle development was achieved, together with internal body unity, through specific Internal methodologies, then weights were sometimes used to "test" the power and the integrity of the body structure, among other things.


Instead of desperately seeking a self satisfied sense of superiority by disparaging others viewpoint because they are skeptical and challenge your diffused hearsay definition of Internal Power Generation Body Unity Structure Methodologies, Wang Shifu actually posts concrete examples thereby furthering the discussion through contribution.

That is why shuai jiao is a mf'ing beast.

[Hardwork108]

Instead of desperately seeking a self satisfied sense of superiority by disparaging others viewpoint because they are skeptical and challenge your diffused hearsay definition of Internal Power Generation Body Unity Structure Methodologies, Wang Shifu actually posts concrete examples thereby furthering the discussion through contribution.

That is why shuai jiao is a mf'ing beast.

The only desperation here is coming from you as you try and "shoot in the dark" about TCMA methodologies that you have no idea about, and instead of trying to learn about them in an internet forum, you should search for genuine TCMA training and if you are lucky, then in time you may have some exposure to the more "unusual" kung fu methodologies regarding strength and power development and body unity, which currently you have absolutely no knowledge of.....

On second thoughts, if you are happy with your own training, then you don't really need to search for anything else either, but just be respectful to those of us here who have been exposed to other genuine TCMA methodologies....

Thanks in advance.....

[Hardwork108]

the links are all shuai jiao equipment training. highlighting that the weight training is in direct connection to the techniques you will be using in your martial art...
That makes a lot of sense and is a very practical approach.


thats one of the cool tings about cma...a lot of the weight training is like this.

Agreed. Whenever there is weight training in a given TCMA style then more often than not it is techniques related, and sometimes, even conditioning related.


Thanks for explaining the links. :)

[Lucas]

np, any time. sux when you cant see a link that is part of the discussion.

[YouKnowWho]

I am still having trouble accessing these links..:(

I don't understand why you can't see those pictures. There are just some pictures upload on the internet by ImageShake.

http://img847.imageshack.us/content_round.php?page=done&l=img847/6121/kungfudemo.jpg&via=mupload

You should be able to see all those pictures on the thread in RSF forum.

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11960&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30

[Lucas]

i will post the image for him.

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1716/singleheadleglift.jpg

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/7338/singleheadlegtwist.jpg

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/4936/pulley2.jpg

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/7958/canebundle.jpg

[Hardwork108]

i will post the image for him.

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1716/singleheadleglift.jpg

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/7338/singleheadlegtwist.jpg

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/4936/pulley2.jpg

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/7958/canebundle.jpg

Thank you for posting, but the image I get is that of a lemon colored frog sitting in a blue ice cube. Underneath it says, "domain unregistered to view....".

I am going to find a way to register. That way I should be able to see the pictures.

[Lucas]

Hmmmm that's odd

[Frost]

I was trying to point out the "intention" of the TCMA weight training. The intention is not trying to build up big muscle but to "enhance" certain skill.

No matter how many reps that you work out on this drill, you won't be able to build big muscle.

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/7958/canebundle.jpg

seriously are you thinking before you post, or is all your expereince with modern weight training coming from fitness 24 and its body builders

[Frost]

You will never defeat Frost's super duper modern, brand new, Olympic Weight training methods...Ya hear me!!!!! They are better becaue they are Modern and "scientific", not like that old kung fu stuff that is out of date!!!! Ya hear me!!!! The new Western stuff is the best, the old Oriental stuff is out of date...everyone here must train modern Olympic Weight training and then go on to practice BJJ, which is the best art for fighting (and male bonding, apparently:D), Ya hear!!!

The MMA knuckleheads have spoken!!!!:D

I’ll try once more for you you silly stupid basement dwelling troll.....if the fecking CHINESE government (and the Taiwanese) government after extensive research decided to use modern methods to train their athletes (athletes who typically have a career span of over a decade....so much for your quick and easy methods not being good over the long haul) then don’t you think there might be something too them................

Of course you have studied both western and eastern methods so are qualified....oh wait no you have studied a bit of 2 rather obscure arts...so forget it

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is a difference between "direct training" and "indirect training". TCMA likes to use "direct training" approach. Here are some examples for "direct training".

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1716/singleheadleglift.jpg

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/7338/singleheadlegtwist.jpg

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/7958/canebundle.jpg

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/4936/pulley2.jpg

The following are quoted from someone's else opinion:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To train the ability to perform a technique requires actually performing that technique. The best way to do that is to do it on a person. If you cannot find a person, find a piece of equipment that closely resembles what you would do with that person (for example, single head weight for leg twist). If you do general (either isolated or full body) resistance training it will make you stronger, but that strength will not necessarily transfer over to the technique you wish to perform.

Well said John.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The distinction between internal and external has been discussed ad nauseum, suffice to say that it is an artificial distinction that was created for one purpose and has been misunderstood over the ages.

That said, there is value to isokinetic exercises and IMA training like "pole standing" and micro and marco cosmos breathing and so forth.

The thing is that,in regards to he actual building of the strength of the muscle, progressive resistence training has proven over and over again to be the best method available.
Of course it has various sub-disciplines, aka protocols but that is because whiel for most general strength is enough, for some specific types of strength and muscle mass building is required.

Strength training is like a salad bar, you take what you like and need and leave the stuff that doesn't interest you.

[wenshu]

The distinction between internal and external has been discussed ad nauseum, suffice to say that it is an artificial distinction that was created for one purpose and has been misunderstood over the ages.

That said, there is value to isokinetic exercises and IMA training like "pole standing" and micro and marco cosmos breathing and so forth.

The thing is that,in regards to he actual building of the strength of the muscle, progressive resistence training has proven over and over again to be the best method available.
Of course it has various sub-disciplines, aka protocols but that is because whiel for most general strength is enough, for some specific types of strength and muscle mass building is required.

Strength training is like a salad bar, you take what you like and need and leave the stuff that doesn't interest you.

Zhan zhuang is resistance training.

Resisting one's own body weight against the pull of gravity in a position of disadvantageous leverage.

This entire rhetorically impoverished tautology is predicated on seeing difference where there is none. Easy enough to do when the opposing propositions are never accurately explicated.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Zhan zhuang is resistance training.

Resisting one's own body weight against the pull of gravity in a position of disadvantageous leverage.

This entire rhetorically impoverished tautology is predicated on seeing difference where there is none. Easy enough to do when the opposing propositions are never accurately explicated.

I don't recall saying that it WASN'T resistance training.

[wenshu]

Didn't mean to address you actually.

Just quoted you out of convenience since you actually reference specific techniques, unlike some.

[Hardwork108]

Zhan zhuang is resistance training.


There is a lot more to Zhan zhuang than just resistance training. The resistance part of it is just the obvious external side of this gung. There is an internal side to it, which you either know or don't know. However, there is one thing for sure, and that is, no one is just going to tell you about this aspect of it, specially in an internet forum....

[Hardwork108]

I’ll try once more for you you silly stupid basement dwelling troll.....if the fecking CHINESE government (and the Taiwanese) government
You should be more respectful to countries and cultures that are much more superior than yours, specially when you are posting in a forum that is dedicated to an art developed by the Chinese!



after extensive research decided to use modern methods to train their athletes (athletes who typically have a career span of over a decade....

"Modern" training is good for sports activities...No one is denying that.



so much for your quick and easy methods not being good over the long haul) then don’t you think there might be something too them................

We can discuss that issue when you finally decide to practice authentic kung fu and put some valid experience under your belt.


.oh wait no you have studied a bit of 2 rather obscure arts...so forget it

The secrets are in the study of the "obscure" arts.....;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is a lot more to Zhan zhuang than just resistance training. The resistance part of it is just the obvious external side of this gung. There is an internal side to it, which you either know or don't know. However, there is one thing for sure, and that is, no one is just going to tell you about this aspect of it, specially in an internet forum....

It's been written about extensively.

[YouKnowWho]

seriously are you thinking before you post, or is all your expereince with modern weight training coming from fitness 24 and its body builders

Since I don't know much about "modern weight training", I try not to talk about it and just stay with what I do know. As Sanjuro Ronin said, "take what you like and need and leave the stuff that doesn't interest you."

[bawang]

I wish you could get those in the U.S.

Kettlebells do ok approximating shi suo, but it is just not the same.

I saw some forum post where someone fabricated their own but it was fairly labor intensive.

flower stone lock is done for fun. for strength training you lift heavy stone locks exactly like a dumbell.
theres no special chinese weight training. you lift things up and put them down.

[wenshu]

flower stone lock is done for fun. for strength training you lift heavy stone locks exactly like a dumbell.
theres no special chinese weight training. you lift things up and put them down.

That has been my point the whole time.

LARPing is not as much fun without the authentic accessories.

[bawang]

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTc2MDM2ODky.html

skip to 2:00

very internal.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTc2MDM2ODky.html

skip to 2:00

very internal.

I don't think that is 100LBs, but still very good lifting.

[bawang]

the barbell he one handed after that was 100 pounds.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the barbell he one handed after that was 100 pounds.

Didn't look like it...

[YouKnowWho]

flower stone lock is done for fun. for strength training you lift heavy stone locks exactly like a dumbell.
theres no special chinese weight training. you lift things up and put them down.

When you swing the stone lock over your head and then drop between your legs, your try to "enhance" your hip throw, shoulder throw and not just for fancy performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOskbq0Iaeg

[bawang]

its called flower stone lock. hua suo. a tiny 20 pound weight isnt gonna train your throws.

i tried finding squats with stone barbell but its not on the internet. its called erlang carries mountain. front squat is called holding the moon. shoulder press is called bawang lift cauldron. squat press is called the crusher.

[YouKnowWho]

its called flower stone lock. hua suo. a tiny 20 pound weight isnt gonna train your throws.

If you use more that 20 lb for your arm swing, you may tear your shoulder joint. I had tried the heavy weight once and I could feel the danger out of it.

[bawang]

for hip throw a rope is tied to a heavy lock and hung on a T shaped wooden frame.


105 pound stone lock
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjM1NDc4ODEy.html
95 pounds
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQ5MDY4NDQ0.html
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQ5MDY2ODYw.html


http://v.ku6.com/show/Ajc1IDnS2CZifYhV.html
skip to 2:11 WHAT IS THIS IMPOSSIBLE

[YouKnowWho]

for hip throw a rope is tied to a heavy lock and hung on a T shaped wooden frame.

That will work too. The only thing is if that rope is too long, the stone lock may be smashed on the ground and break (or cause a big hole on the ground).

[bawang]

no u use it like a pulley . u can do this on any modern cable weight.


if that shuai jiao video showed them doing bicep curls and shoulder press with the stone locks u think anyone would still buy their dvd?

[taai gihk yahn]

There is a lot more to Zhan zhuang than just resistance training. The resistance part of it is just the obvious external side of this gung. There is an internal side to it, which you either know or don't know
Actually, the resistance part is minor in terms of what usually constitutes resistance training; its really resistance in context of weight bearing;
As far as external/internal, that's an artificial distinction and really a poor choice of qualifiers: to categorize any exercise, be it from sittingeditation to weight lifting as one or the other ultimately makes no sense if one really analyzes each activity


. However, there is one thing for sure, and that is, no one is just going to tell you about this aspect of it, specially in an internet forum....


It's been written about extensively.

I've discussed it here in detail from both a "traditional" / direct experiential perspective as well as from a contemporary anatomical / physiological one - (using tensegrity model as relates to body structure/function one can fully articulate and describe what is going on "intenally"); it's not some big secret or esoteric thing unless
you want to make it that way - it's basically giving the organism the opportunity to do what it wants to do "naturally" with minimal interference (all the so-called "qi" phenomena is basically autonomics and connective tissue matrix doing their thing - it seems fantastical at first bec most people never allow themselves the opportunity for it to manifest); of course, without doing it one won't fully understand it, and teaching it without direct interaction is pretty much impossible; but otherwise there's nothing mystical or complex about it; also, the way Iyengar talks about Mountain asana is very similar...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually, the resistance part is minor in terms of what usually constitutes resistance training; its really resistance in context of weight bearing;
As far as external/internal, that's an artificial distinction and really a poor choice of qualifiers: to categorize any exercise, be it from sittingeditation to weight lifting as one or the other ultimately makes no sense if one really analyzes each activity





I've discussed it here in detail from both a "traditional" / direct experiential perspective as well as from a contemporary anatomical / physiological one - (using tensegrity model as relates to body structure/function one can fully articulate and describe what is going on "intenally"); it's not some big secret or esoteric thing unless
you want to make it that way - it's basically giving the organism the opportunity to do what it wants to do "naturally" with minimal interference (all the so-called "qi" phenomena is basically autonomics and connective tissue matrix doing their thing - it seems fantastical at first bec most people never allow themselves the opportunity for it to manifest); of course, without doing it one won't fully understand it, and teaching it without direct interaction is pretty much impossible; but otherwise there's nothing mystical or complex about it; also, the way Iyengar talks about Mountain asana is very similar...

Get out of here with your bad self, mofu !!

[taai gihk yahn]

Get out of here with your bad self, mofu !!

I mean dont get me wrong, I can relate to what HW108 is talking about in regards to their being a substantial qualitative difference btw so-called external training such as doing deadlifts for example and so called internal training like standing practice and I agree that u will develop a certain type of functional strength doing standing and other similar "gungs" that r derived from the increased kinesthetic awareness and subsequent "whole body" unity that u won't get in the same way doing other things, but I hav no cause to b demure from discussing them explicitly in terms of their components as such just because they hav been kept "hidden" for centuries and r carachterized as profound (the implication being that they cannot be delineated intrinsically in a straight forward manner - because they can b - it's just that the teachers in the past didn't have the belief systems and framework available to articulate them as such)

[Hardwork108]

Hmmmm that's odd

I have been unsuccessful so far. It may have something to do with the part of the world I am in.

Thanks again for your help.:)

[Hardwork108]

It's been written about extensively.

Not enough....IMHO. Or perhaps not enough people have read about it, as they seem to think that it is soleley a resistance exercise or as one "experienced" poster put it a couple of years ago, "it helps me relax"...:eek: (or something to that effect). LOL!

Some of the better explanations of this gung refer to it as a way of developing internal force. I personally have not come across any explanations as to the "how" of this force development.

Going beyond Zhan Zhuang, "qualities" that it starts developing need to be taken to the next level by specific two men exercises, that not only help "body unity" but also result in specific changes in the body itself, in conjunction with other solo exercises.

Again, I have never seen written references to these detailing SPECIFICS, and as my sifu pointed out, I am unlikely to see them. And you know what, it is better this way...

[bawang]

Again, I have never seen written references to these detailing SPECIFICS, and as my sifu pointed out, I am unlikely to see them.

because u dont train internal martial arts. u train wing chun.

[Hardwork108]

Actually, the resistance part is minor in terms of what usually constitutes resistance training; its really resistance in context of weight bearing;
Agreed.

As far as external/internal, that's an artificial distinction and really a poor choice of qualifiers:
I hold a different opinion. I guess it depends on one's own "world view", for want of a better phrase.


to categorize any exercise, be it from sittingeditation to weight lifting as one or the other ultimately makes no sense if one really analyzes each activity
It makes sense to me in the following way. Practioner A, pumps iron and does his sit ups and press ups. To the on looker what he is doing will show visible results. This could be seen as an "External" facet of these exercises, where potential results are apparent, or "in the open", so to speak.

Practitioner B, practices Zhan Zhuang; he meditates; participates in two man exercises that to the onlooker look like "chi sao type" practices (he may even go on to have long discussions about how impracticle these exercises are for fighting, hence missing a very important aspect of such exercises;)). Anyway, the on looker in question may not see any visible, or potential benefits as regards strength and power, when observing Practioner B. So, we are talking about something that is not easily observable or in the open - hence Internal.

I understand that you may not see it that way, but I hope you appreciate why I and many others, including sifus and masters (which btw I never claim to be), see it as such.




I've discussed it here in detail from both a "traditional" / direct experiential perspective as well as from a contemporary anatomical / physiological one - (using tensegrity model as relates to body structure/function one can fully articulate and describe what is going on "internally"); it's not some big secret or esoteric thing unless
you want to make it that way - it's basically giving the organism the opportunity to do what it wants to do "naturally" with minimal interference (all the so-called "qi" phenomena is basically autonomics and connective tissue matrix doing their thing - it seems fantastical at first bec most people never allow themselves the opportunity for it to manifest); of course,

Yes, you have discussed this, but I have not seen the Chow Gar methodologies discussed in detail anywhere (forums, books, dvds, etc) and as I have stated before a lot of that stuff is kept out of public domain, that unfortunatly means that many people just have no idea, no matter what their experience, as they will not appreciate the specifics of many gungs and their potentials - the body unity, hardening,shock power, strength and so on.

Of course, all of "kung fu skills" have their manifestations in styles such as Pak Mei, Dragon, Hsing I and others, but again, I have not seen any signature references in books, forums or other media.



without doing it one won't fully understand it, and teaching it without direct interaction is pretty much impossible; but otherwise there's nothing mystical or complex about it; also, the way Iyengar talks about Mountain asana is very similar...

I agree again, the only way to fully appreciate this is by experiencing it, and that will only happen with a real deal sifu who is WILLING to share his knowledge.

However, let me emphasis that I am not saying that it is "mystical". All I am saying is that it is not in public domain, hence all the "misunderstandings" and mud slinging that have occured here, every time I have made references to these methodologies.

People should get off their high horses and just admit and live with the fact that there are TCMA methodologies that they have not been exposed to, no matter how long they have been training. That way they may open their minds and research and enhance their knowledge. That is what I try to do every day.

I believe that I have in past discussions mentioned to you the kung fu master that once said that he wanted to study kung fu in his next lifetime because there is so much more to learn. Actually, he is a Grand Master and believe me, he has more kung fu his little finger than most posters here, put together, that includes the BJJ blue belts :D. So, there is more for ALL of us to discover.

I believe that many people, including those in this very forum, who have dabbled in kung fu have failed to see how multi level the exercises and the forms can be. A slight change of intention in a given exercises can give you results that you won't get if you repeat it otherwise for the next 10 years.

Many here take a given exercise at face value. They just see the EXTERNAL, because that is how their minds works (based on their training history and perhaps even culture). So they see the Tai Chi pushhands as some kind of fighting exercise only, albeit a "bad one". Others who know better will see the push hands as a way of developing sensitivity and "listening" skills....but then there are benefits of push hands that go beyond the two that I have mentioned. Those benefits will never be discovered unless a SIFU shows it to the student.

The same can be said of the so called "development" forms. There is infinitley more to these type of exercises than tensing and releasing tension, a la the karate San Chin.

Then we have variations of breathing that accompany corresponding variations of striking. that means that the popular statement that a "punch is just a punch" will not hold true, because the same punch can have various effects depending on the "mechanism" used to deliver it. A crude example would be the contrasting a typical karate reverse punch with that of a similar looking "internal" kung fu one.

The whole subject is profound, and perhaps, just perhaps it is suitable to describe the deeper stuff as Internal, or perhaps not, depending on one's "world view".

[Hardwork108]

because u dont train internal martial arts. u train wing chun.

...And Chow Gar....

[bawang]

why are you scared of weights and big muscular men? what are you afraid of?

why is the concept that chinese martial artists lift weights and have big muscles so scary to you?

[Hardwork108]

why are you scared of weights and big muscular men? what are you afraid of?

why is the concept that chinese martial artists lift weights and have big muscles so scary to you?

I am not sure if I should even bother and answer you, but what the heck....

Different TCMA styles use different ways to build strength and power. Some use weights and some don't.

That is all....

By the way, it is very late, isn't it past your bed time?:D

[bawang]

Different TCMA styles use different ways to build strength and power. Some use weights and some don't.


the only chinese martial art styles that dont lift weights are the ones white people train.

you will speak to me with respect, wing chun scum. i spit on your dirty kind. you are without honer.

[Hardwork108]

the only chinese martial art styles that dont lift weights are the ones white people train.
You need to go back to school as far as the TCMA methodologies are concerned....

[bawang]

i go back school? i go back school? I AM SCHOOL

[sanjuro_ronin]

the only chinese martial art styles that dont lift weights are the ones white people train.

you will speak to me with respect, wing chun scum. i spit on your dirty kind. you are without honer.

Best post ever !!!!

[taai gihk yahn]

you will speak to me with respect, wing chun scum. i spit on your dirty kind. you are without honer.

The king's a bawcock, and a heart of gold,
A lad of life, an imp of fame;
Of parents good, of fist most valiant.
I kiss his dirty shoe, and from heart-string
I love the lovely bully.
- Henry V, Act 4, Scene 1

[Violent Designs]

brack bear more strong

[Frost]

I mean dont get me wrong, I can relate to what HW108 is talking about in regards to their being a substantial qualitative difference btw so-called external training such as doing deadlifts for example and so called internal training like standing practice and I agree that u will develop a certain type of functional strength doing standing and other similar "gungs" that r derived from the increased kinesthetic awareness and subsequent "whole body" unity that u won't get in the same way doing other things, but I hav no cause to b demure from discussing them explicitly in terms of their components as such just because they hav been kept "hidden" for centuries and r carachterized as profound (the implication being that they cannot be delineated intrinsically in a straight forward manner - because they can b - it's just that the teachers in the past didn't have the belief systems and framework available to articulate them as such)

So would you say that such functional strength gained through this increased kinesthetic awareness and subsequent "whole body" unity can only be trained through internal practices, or would you say that such awareness and unity can be trained directly though hands on practise, say in the form of grappling or rolling as done in BJJ

If not how would you qualify the difference between the two, if we take it to mean the body's abilities to coordinate motion and the body's awareness of where it is in time and space how would you quantify the difference between this and whole body unity and the awareness developed through dead lifts and snatches, cleans etc

For instance, doing cleans has taught me exactly where my body is in relation to to others around me and the bar I am lifting, I can tell if I’m off my a centimetre before I fall, or get clipped in the chin by the bar :o)

In the same way doing a deadlift I can tell if I am out of my grove by a fraction by the way the bar feels and how my body response

[David Jamieson]

brack bear more strong

*trong


it's "trong" man.

[Hardwork108]

I know that you are asking Taai Gihk Yahn, and I am sure that he will answer your query, but I would also like to give you my input.


So would you say that such functional strength gained through this increased kinesthetic awareness and subsequent "whole body" unity can only be trained through internal practices, or would you say that such awareness and unity can be trained directly though hands on practise, say in the form of grappling or rolling as done in BJJ

Have a look at this 60 year old TCMA master touching hands with a bigger and younger weight lifter. He is not from Chow Gar, and his methodology will be quite different, but look at the efficiency. Also, imagine the abilities of the younger weight lifter when he gets to the age of sixty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_v52iLXH_E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iojQcWRYiy8&feature=related

And here is some limbs knocking fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw7HW5pKDnI&feature=related

Heavy Hands:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD1-HK8c4wI&feature=related


First point. Internal training also has hands on exercises such as "Chi Sao" and other two man exercises, which to the on looker would not make much sense.

Secondly, through correct internal practice the increased kinesthetic awareness and whole body unity are accompanied by solid power gained through specific tendon (and to a lesser degree, muscle)development exercises.

Third point. You need to think "fine tuned". That is, every aspect of our lives requires sensitivity, "listening" abilities and general perception. When it comes to Internal TCMAs these are taken to extremely high levels.


If not how would you qualify the difference between the two, if we take it to mean the body's abilities to coordinate motion and the body's awareness of where it is in time and space how would you quantify the difference between this and whole body unity and the awareness developed through dead lifts and snatches, cleans etc
The two body unities you talk of are on different levels. From an Internal TCMA, or at least that which refers to the Chow Gar approach, lifting weights will create unnecessary stiffness within the body, as well as internal disconnections, which will contradict the body unity goals that you are aiming to achieve throught the specialized training methodologies of this style.


For instance, doing cleans has taught me exactly where my body is in relation to to others around me and the bar I am lifting, I can tell if I’m off my a centimetre before I fall, or get clipped in the chin by the bar :o)

Think "fine-tuned".


In the same way doing a deadlift I can tell if I am out of my grove by a fraction by the way the bar feels and how my body response
On top of potent power and strength development, the Internal TCMA aim to create sensitivities to detect minute body movements and intentions as regards your opponent where, if he moves, you FIRST MOVE!;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

From an Internal TCMA, or at least that which refers to the Chow Gar approach, lifting weights will create unnecessary stiffness within the body, as well as internal disconnections, which will contradict the body unity goals that you are aiming to achieve throught the specialized training methodologies of this style.

That would suggest to me that Chow Gar does movements that are NOT natural to the proper use of the muscles and what they were designed to do, since strength training uses movements that the muscles ARE designed to do and does NOT create any stiffness whatsoever (studies have shown that olympic lifters are second ONLY to gymnasts in terms of (general)flexibility).

[Hardwork108]

That would suggest to me that Chow Gar does movements that are NOT natural to the proper use of the muscles and what they were designed to do, since strength training uses movements that the muscles ARE designed to do and does NOT create any stiffness whatsoever (studies have shown that olympic lifters are second ONLY to gymnasts in terms of (general)flexibility).

You are probably right about the weight lifters´ flexibility, but I am referring to more than just flexibility. Again, it is a question of training with a mindset of "fine tuning" sensitivity.

The other fundamental point about the use of weights is the fact that some styles such as Chow Gar, or at least the lineage that I practice...see it as creating counter effects to the internal body connection which the core training aims to achieve.

[Frost]

Hardwork108 03-17-2011 08:13 PM

I know that you are asking Taai Gihk Yahn, and I am sure that he will answer your query, but I would also like to give you my input.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frost (Post 1084051)
So would you say that such functional strength gained through this increased kinesthetic awareness and subsequent "whole body" unity can only be trained through internal practices, or would you say that such awareness and unity can be trained directly though hands on practise, say in the form of grappling or rolling as done in BJJ

Have a look at this 60 year old TCMA master touching hands with a bigger and younger weight lifter. He is not from Chow Gar, and his methodology will be quite different, but look at the efficiency. Also, imagine the abilities of the younger weight lifter when he gets to the age of sixty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_v52iLXH_E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iojQc...eature=related

And here is some limbs knocking fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw7HW...eature=related

Heavy Hands:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD1-H...eature=related
You are of course most welcome to give your comments, it’s a forum after all


What do you see in those clips, because I see a man who has spent 50 years learning how to deal with incoming force in a specific way, playing with another man who has not learned how to deal with those forces, no doubt if you put the tai chi guy under 200kg of weights and asked him to squat he would bust himself in half where as the powerlifter would have the kinesthetic awareness to squat safely….this probably shows me that that awareness is largely task specific. Both are good at resisting specific forces of pressure……now which relates better to fighting I have no idea…….i am sure the wu style tai chi guy who fought the crane guy in the ring in the 60’s could also handle pushes like that………..did it help him in his ability to actually fight anymore than a power lifters ability to deal with incoming force in his specific pathways helps him fight ?

However I digress and we are really off topic, I was talking there about specific hands on training building those awareness’s, I spent 10 years learning southern hei gong and nei gong exercises, seated meditation from the lineage master of my style, as well as several years learning standing taoist chi gung and tai chi from both a student of earle montigue and a long time student of yang tai chi, I was spending at least an hour a day on just standing and moving practise for several years, and I could pull off those tricks you saw in the clips about as well with bigger guys, I also studied 2 different versions of pushing hands as well as my styles sticking hands practise.

Now all that built up an internal awareness that was I thought quite good and unique, and when I started grappling it stood me in good stead against other new people and even those who had been there a little longer than me……….however the first time I grappled with an experienced wrestler his levels of sensitivity and awareness was so much higher than mine it wasn’t even funny….hence my question to Chris, because for me I now have greater internal awareness and kinesthetic awareness and subsequent "whole body" unity than I ever did doing standing practise and push hands


As for your comments about how the abilities of the powerlifter will be when he reaches 60, I don’t have to guess I have trained with 60 year old powerlifters, and 70 year old ones lol. ! saw a guy who had just turned 60 dead lift 270Kg easily (a new world record in his age group) he looks like he is 40 and moves very well…so your point is exactly? And just so you don’t think I am making this up I can post clips of him if you like


First point. Internal training also has hands on exercises such as "Chi Sao" and other two man exercises, which to the on looker would not make much sense.

So the hands on training makes the awareness specific to the task then….Grappling does this as well its called pummelling and rolling, and again from my experience it builds up awareness and whole body strength like nothing else and without the need to do the standing practises


Secondly, through correct internal practice the increased kinesthetic awareness and whole body unity are accompanied by solid power gained through specific tendon (and to a lesser degree, muscle)development exercises.
You cant develop tendons without muscles, both OL lifting and grappling build this as well, so from your experience how is this different, ie have you grappled with good wrestlers and lifted weights…..because if you have not you have no reference for saying internals build this and it is unique to those arts…..which actually I realise you are not saying here…..but the point still stands: I have done tai chi, southern and hakka practises and I have also grappled and rolled…..so even if I don’t know chow gar mythology I do know something about internal practises


Third point. You need to think "fine tuned". That is, every aspect of our lives requires sensitivity, "listening" abilities and general perception. When it comes to Internal TCMAs these are taken to extremely high levels.
And they are taken to an equally high level in grappling without the need to do the standing and slow movement solo drills…. a brown belt from Australia I rolled with (who also trains pro fighters and wrestled all his life) actually called out to me what he was going to do and tapped me whilst talking another student through his roll, he didn’t need to talk or concentrate on me his body awareness was that great it handled itself
Quote:


Originally Posted by Frost (Post 1084051)
If not how would you qualify the difference between the two, if we take it to mean the body's abilities to coordinate motion and the body's awareness of where it is in time and space how would you quantify the difference between this and whole body unity and the awareness developed through dead lifts and snatches, cleans etc

The two body unities you talk of are on different levels. From an Internal TCMA, or at least that which refers to the Chow Gar approach, lifting weights will create unnecessary stiffness within the body, as well as internal disconnections, which will contradict the body unity goals that you are aiming to achieve throught the specialized training methodologies of this style.

No offence but I was asking Tai who has studied internal arts internal and probably dealt with patients who have weight trained

if you have never lifted weights, taught weight lifting or dealt with patients who have lifted you have no experience to really talk on the matter so how can you say its different levels? You have your opinion (based on what you have been told not what you have experienced) but it is one not based on any real factual evidence or first hand experience

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frost (Post 1084051)
For instance, doing cleans has taught me exactly where my body is in relation to to others around me and the bar I am lifting, I can tell if I’m off my a centimetre before I fall, or get clipped in the chin by the bar :o)

Think "fine-tuned".
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frost (Post 1084051)
In the same way doing a deadlift I can tell if I am out of my grove by a fraction by the way the bar feels and how my body response

On top of potent power and strength development, the Internal TCMA aim to create sensitivities to detect minute body movements and intentions as regards your opponent where, if he moves, you FIRST MOVE!;)So do arts like wrestling and grappling how in your experience of the two, internals and grappling, is their a real difference?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are probably right about the weight lifters´ flexibility, but I am referring to more than just flexibility. Again, it is a question of training with a mindset of "fine tuning" sensitivity.

The other fundamental point about the use of weights is the fact that some styles such as Chow Gar, or at least the lineage that I practice...see it as creating counter effects to the internal body connection which the core training aims to achieve.

And I think that may be a misconception due to NOT being aware of the various ST protocols and tending to view all ST as "body building" which STILL is a very common misconception.

[wenshu]

The two body unities you talk of are on different levels. From an Internal TCMA, or at least that which refers to the Chow Gar approach, lifting weights will create unnecessary stiffness within the body, as well as internal disconnections, which will contradict the body unity goals that you are aiming to achieve throught the specialized training methodologies of this style.


http://www.crossfitxlr8.com/watercooler/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Olympic-snatch.jpg

Looks rather supple to me.

Where's your hip flexibility at?


. . . aim to create sensitivities to detect minute body movements and intentions as regards your opponent where, if he moves, you FIRST MOVE!;)

You sound like a BJJ coach.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anyone who has ever lifted serious weight in a compound move KNOWS all about body unity and structure, trust me on that !

[SPJ]

http://www.crossfitxlr8.com/watercooler/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Olympic-snatch.jpg



wow. talking about ba wang lifting ding

or ba wang ju ding

or tuo tian shi, lifting the heaven/sky posture.

:cool:

[Hardwork108]

http://www.crossfitxlr8.com/watercooler/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Olympic-snatch.jpg

Looks rather supple to me.

Where's your hip flexibility at?
I believe that you have missed my point completely.




You sound like a BJJ coach.
I also sound like a Karate coach, judo coach and MT coach,etc. All fighting disciplines will relate to the concept I referred to, but just like so many things in life, there are many levels involved in this concept as well.

So, you need to really practice the stuff I am talking about, with a real deal master(s) to appreciate where I am coming from.

[Frost]

Anyone who has ever lifted serious weight in a compound move KNOWS all about body unity and structure, trust me on that !

you know that, because you have a frame of reference developed though actual first hand expereince that allows you to come to that conclusion........same as we both know grappling builds whole body power and awareness

Its hard to have a debate if the other person only has one point of reference and yet continues to argue about both sides of the debate even though they have no actual expereince

[Hardwork108]

Anyone who has ever lifted serious weight in a compound move KNOWS all about body unity and structure, trust me on that !

Just looking at a weight lifter in action one can appreciate the need for body unity. The same goes for other fighting arts such as karate, Muay Thai, boxing and BJJ. However, each art and discipline will use different body unity concepts. These concepts will of course over lap at some point, but in many cases they are distinct and follow different methodologies.

The Chow Gar body unity concepts and hence the methodology, is for example, very distinct from the Wing Chun one, and this when both of these arts are Southern Chinese and in the point of view of many, are "related" arts.

So, all I am talking about is a lesser known methodology with its own concepts and principles, a few of which may be similar to other arts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just looking at a weight lifter in action one can appreciate the need for body unity. The same goes for other fighting arts such as karate, Muay Thai, boxing and BJJ. However, each art and discipline will use different body unity concepts. These concepts will of course over lap at some point, but in many cases they are distinct and follow different methodologies.

The Chow Gar body unity concepts and hence the methodology, is for example, very distinct from the Wing Chun one, and this when both of these arts are Southern Chinese and in the point of view of many, are "related" arts.

So, all I am talking about is a lesser known methodology with its own concepts and principles, a few of which may be similar to other arts.

No one is arguing against specificity, far from that.
But ST is not about specificity in THAT regard.
A person that can clean and jerk 150 kilos will be strong, period.
And that strength WILL translate to the specificity of ANY MA, internal or otherwise.
ST will not build the specific strength required for a specific task, like the power generation of SPM, BUT it will build the strength of the muscles INVOLVED in the specific power pathway.

[YouKnowWho]

a few of which may be similar to other arts.

All TCMA training try to achieve "All body parts move and stop at the same time". If your feet stop but your hands are still moving (or your hands stop but your feet are still moving) than that will violate the basic guideline.

[bawang]

All TCMA training try to achieve "All body parts move and stop at the same time". If your feet stop but your hands are still moving (or your hands stop but your feet are still moving) than that will violate the basic guideline.

NOE UR RONG
拳法不定- "the rules of martial arts are never permanent"

[YouKnowWho]

NOE UR RONG
拳法不定- "the rules of martial arts are never permanent"

I was talking about "training" and you are talking about "combat".

[bawang]

ok my bad im so sorry forgive me pls

[taai gihk yahn]

ok my bad im so sorry forgive me pls

If there's a world where Bawang can be wrong, than I don't wanna be right...or sumthing like that...

[Violent Designs]

ok my bad im so sorry forgive me pls

dont disrespect ur ancient elder.

YouKnowWho = He Who Must Not Be Named = Voldemort

VOLDEMORT IS MY ANCESTOR?! :eek:

[bawang]

ykw looks like a hobo in chinatown but has a sexy white wife with yellow hairs. he is number 1 chinese hero.

please accept me make be your dry son.

[YouKnowWho]

ykw looks like a hobo in chinatown but has a sexy white wife with yellow hairs. he is number 1 chinese hero.

please accept me make be your dry son.
:) :p :o :D :D :D

There will be no rules in "combat" and I agree with you 100% there. My teacher bited one guy's finger off in a challenge fight.

[bawang]

My teacher bited one guy's finger off in a challenge fight.

wow wow wee waa

[Violent Designs]

wow wow wee waa

bow chica bow wow

[YouKnowWho]

wow wow wee waa
To cause some permanent damage on your opponent's body is the best way to reduce future challenges. When your "no mercy" reputation have spreaded around, people will think twice before challenge you. You will get sick and get old someday. You just can't afford to accept all the challenge fights when people knock on your door daily.

[bawang]

wow im scare

[Hardwork108]

PART 1


You are of course most welcome to give your comments, it’s a forum after all
:eek:


What do you see in those clips, because I see a man who has spent 50 years learning how to deal with incoming force in a specific way,

The man in question IS a fighter and he has learned a lot more than dealing with incoming force, eventhough just doing that well can have practical benefits for combat purposes.



playing with another man who has not learned how to deal with those forces,

That is what I am attempting to illustrate, that is, the less "appreciated" TCMA skills.

So, we have a man who was much bigger, stronger and was much younger than his adversary. On paper he would have "walked all over" the kung fu master, but he lost in all of the encounters, including limbs knocking.



no doubt if you put the tai chi guy under 200kg of weights and asked him to squat he would bust himself in half where as the powerlifter would have the kinesthetic awareness to squat safely….

We are talking about different types of strength and power.



this probably shows me that that awareness is largely task specific. Both are good at resisting specific forces of pressure……now which relates better to fighting I have no idea…….

I would say that the TCMA awareness in question is a LIVE and ever changing one in comparisson to a weight lifter's or a person whose main source of strength is gained from weight lifting.


i am sure the wu style tai chi guy who fought the crane guy in the ring in the 60’s could also handle pushes like that………..did it help him in his ability to actually fight anymore than a power lifters ability to deal with incoming force in his specific pathways helps him fight ?

The reason for the bad performance of the Crane and Wu Tai Chi masters was the fact that their MA training was not combat oriented. It has nothing to do with their strength/power building or "listening" or "sensitivity" training. You could teach a person the best boxing techniques in the world and you can condition him, but if his training does not include combat practice then his performance is not going to be much better than those masters in the video.

Also, and importantly, I happen to know that the master in the video teaches combat oriented kung fu.


However I digress and we are really off topic, I was talking there about specific hands on training building those awareness’s, I spent 10 years learning southern hei gong and nei gong exercises, seated meditation from the lineage master of my style, as well as several years learning standing taoist chi gung and tai chi from both a student of earle montigue and a long time student of yang tai chi, I was spending at least an hour a day on just standing and moving practise for several years,

Don't get me wrong, but the world and this forum, are full of people who will boast "TCMA experience", yet they have found their "Shangrila" in MMA training, while more importantly they will not see the signifcance of the TCMA "qualities" I am talking about. The fact is, and I don't like this either, that the overall majority of TCMA training available nowadays just go through the motions, if even that, as far as authentic traditional authentic methodologies are concerned!

What I am saying is that most TCMA training nowadays just train an empty shell with some sparring added, if one is lucky, that is. IMHO, what makes a lot of TCMA training just an empty shell is the exclusion of the Internal side.



and I could pull off those tricks you saw in the clips about as well with bigger guys, I also studied 2 different versions of pushing hands as well as my styles sticking hands practise.

I would argue with you that what you saw in that video had nothing to do with "tricks". They are martial arts attributes that if trained properly can be extremely functional and effective in real combat scenarios.

IMHO, when people refer to such attributes as "tricks", it reflects very badly on their own experience and understanding of authentic TCMA practices.


Now all that built up an internal awareness that was I thought quite good and unique, and when I started grappling it stood me in good stead against other new people and even those who had been there a little longer than me……….however the first time I grappled with an experienced wrestler his levels of sensitivity and awareness was so much higher than mine it wasn’t even funny….hence my question to Chris, because for me I now have greater internal awareness and kinesthetic awareness and subsequent "whole body" unity than I ever did doing standing practise and push hands


You are just seeing the "push hands" aspect of sensitivity and awareness. "Push Hands" training is just one methodology that practices sensitivity and tests structure integrity. There are many others exercises that train different aspects of this. The same goes for "standing practice".

[Push Hands type training has another fundamental purpose which I don't think anyone here is going to mention any time soon....]

Also, another benefit of Internal training can be the Shock Power (in Chow Gar). Obviously if you are sparring with a wrestler, then you are not going to use powerful strikes or limb breaks using fully developed internal mechanisms. The real question would be what would happen in a real fight with a wrestler, if one has developed internal combat "qualities"....

[Hardwork108]

PART 2


As for your comments about how the abilities of the powerlifter will be when he reaches 60, I don’t have to guess I have trained with 60 year old powerlifters, and 70 year old ones lol. ! saw a guy who had just turned 60 dead lift 270Kg easily (a new world record in his age group) he looks like he is 40 and moves very well…so your point is exactly? And just so you don’t think I am making this up I can post clips of him if you like

It is just that qi gong/breathing and energy exercises, together with a relaxed state, "softness" and flexibility are generally more associated with old age health than weight lifting exercises. Of course, I had a grand father who did much of neither, but lived to the ripe old age of 102....

.


So the hands on training makes the awareness specific to the task then….Grappling does this as well its called pummelling and rolling, and again from my experience it builds up awareness and whole body strength like nothing else
One can argue that all two man combat training/sparring build up "awareness", but again, what I am talking about is fine tuned "awareness" and sensitivity.

Also, whole body strength gained in one way is not necessarily the same as whole body strength gained in another, as there are different types of body unities and their accompanying concepts.



and without the need to do the standing practises

Standing practices have multiple purposes, but as far as whole body awareness is concerned their role has to be experienced to be understood. From what you have said on that regard, I believe that I can safely say that you have not felt the "connections" by practicing these exercises. Maybe they were not for you. Besides, standing exercises have to be accompanied by other ones to get the full benefit of what one is attempting to achieve.



You cant develop tendons without muscles, both OL lifting and grappling build this as well,

You can develop tendons and muscles by doing other exercises as well. Each methodology will give different results.


so from your experience how is this different, ie have you grappled with good wrestlers and lifted weights…..because if you have not you have no reference for saying internals build this and it is unique to those arts…..which actually I realise you are not saying here…..

I have touched hands with people - who had trained their strength through weight training exercises - during "resistance two man exercises". These we were usually people who had come from other MAs. I found them to be tense, stiff and they usually tired very quickly. They did however have muscles and looked powerful. Some of them would no doubt deliver powerful blows if they had to fight, but then and again, we are talking about different kind of strength and power.



but the point still stands: I have done tai chi, southern and hakka practises and I have also grappled and rolled…..so even if I don’t know chow gar mythology I do know something about internal practises
Again, the world is full of people who have "practiced" kung fu, but you do not seem to have a point of reference as regards the methodologies I am discussing. Nothing wrong with that either, as you seem to have found other none TCMA methodologies that are working for you.


And they are taken to an equally high level in grappling without the need to do the standing and slow movement solo drills…. a brown belt from Australia I rolled with (who also trains pro fighters and wrestled all his life) actually called out to me what he was going to do and tapped me whilst talking another student through his roll, he didn’t need to talk or concentrate on me his body awareness was that great it handled itself

That is understandable,as whatever activity one trains hard in, and has lots experience in, becomes second nature to one.



No offence but I was asking Tai who has studied internal arts internal and probably dealt with patients who have weight trained

if you have never lifted weights, taught weight lifting or dealt with patients who have lifted you have no experience to really talk on the matter so how can you say its different levels? You have your opinion (based on what you have been told not what you have experienced) but it is one not based on any real factual evidence or first hand experience
So do arts like wrestling and grappling how in your experience of the two, internals and grappling, is their a real difference?

The fact that no one here seems to be familiar with the specific internal methodologies that develop body unity, as well as power and strength, would indicate that these do not exist in wrestling and/or in weightlifting methodologies, as practiced by the members of this forum. Actually, they do not exist in many other styles of kung fu either, or perhaps they have been lost through the passage of time.

So, me not being a wrestling expert or a weight lifting expert does not change the fact that we are talking about a compeltely different methodology that develops a different kind of power and body unity to that of weight training and wrestling.

Also, having touched hands with more than one weight trained person, and having felt his "hollowness" and stiffness (not talking physical flexibility here either), I can say for sure that these exercises are missing a "trick". That does not mean that they are bad and that they cannot give you power, etc. Just that they are missing something fundamental that can be gained through the correct internal training.:)

[bawang]

Also, having touched hands with more than one weight trained person, and having felt his "hollowness" and stiffness (not talking physical flexibility here either)

sounds like u were touching something else







HIS PENUS

[Hardwork108]

sounds like u were touching something else







HIS PENUS

Bawang, your kung fu is GAY!

Go and find a forum for gay kung fu practice and leave this forum alone as this is a MMA, whoops sorry, I meant, this is a real manly KUNG FU forum.....:D

[Hardwork108]

No one is arguing against specificity, far from that.
But ST is not about specificity in THAT regard.
A person that can clean and jerk 150 kilos will be strong, period.
I agree and appreciate why many External martial arts use such ST.



And that strength WILL translate to the specificity of ANY MA, internal or otherwise.
The "stiffness" and tension generated by ST using weights is seen by many Internal TCMAs as counter-effective as regards their internal body unity methodologies.



ST will not build the specific strength required for a specific task, like the power generation of SPM, BUT it will build the strength of the muscles INVOLVED in the specific power pathway.

Again, the specific SPM that I study sees ST using weights as ineffecient and counter effective as regards their other specific exercises designed for internal body development and unity, that include the abilities such as the shock power, which is not necessarily the same as the short range power that one sees in other styles.

People may disagree with this, but that is how such training is viewed.

[Hardwork108]

All TCMA training try to achieve "All body parts move and stop at the same time". If your feet stop but your hands are still moving (or your hands stop but your feet are still moving) than that will violate the basic guideline.

True. The Chow Gar methodology in question handles body unity at a deeper level. The training creates internal awareness and a new self vision of body connectivity.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree and appreciate why many External martial arts use such ST.



The "stiffness" and tension generated by ST using weights is seen by many Internal TCMAs as counter-effective as regards their internal body unity methodologies.




Again, the specific SPM that I study sees ST using weights as ineffecient and counter effective as regards their other specific exercises designed for internal body development and unity, that include the abilities such as the shock power, which is not necessarily the same as the short range power that one sees in other styles.

People may disagree with this, but that is how such training is viewed.

The "stiffness" you feel has to do with NOT knowing the way to move, it has nothing to do with muscle stiffness ( muscles aren't stiff).
I have touched hands with some high level Taiji guys and their smoothness was formidable, but once they were taken out of the thier comfort zone and but on the ground, as an example, they became "stiff" and "tired out quickly".
This is a very common occurence in ANY physical activity that a person is NOT used to doing.
Another example is the relaxed running of a marathon runner turning into a stiff and tired swimmer after just 1 lap or the case of a good friend of mine that is a high level Triathalon and is smooth and relaxed in swimming, running and cycling, but gassed in 2 rounds on the Heavy Bag.

Muscles tend to be very specific in their abiblity to stave off lactic acid AND to relax, perhaps more so than their ability to produce strength.

Again, the issue that you are seeing and feeling have more to do with not having the correct neuro-muscular pathways set in, then they do with "big muscles".

[Scott R. Brown]

The "stiffness" you feel has to do with NOT knowing the way to move, it has nothing to do with muscle stiffness ( muscles aren't stiff).
I have touched hands with some high level Taiji guys and their smoothness was formidable, but once they were taken out of the thier comfort zone and but on the ground, as an example, they became "stiff" and "tired out quickly".
This is a very common occurence in ANY physical activity that a person is NOT used to doing.
Another example is the relaxed running of a marathon runner turning into a stiff and tired swimmer after just 1 lap or the case of a good friend of mine that is a high level Triathalon and is smooth and relaxed in swimming, running and cycling, but gassed in 2 rounds on the Heavy Bag.

Muscles tend to be very specific in their abiblity to stave off lactic acid AND to relax, perhaps more so than their ability to produce strength.

Again, the issue that you are seeing and feeling have more to do with not having the correct neuro-muscular pathways set in, then they do with "big muscles".

Very nicely stated! :)

[Frost]

The "stiffness" you feel has to do with NOT knowing the way to move, it has nothing to do with muscle stiffness ( muscles aren't stiff).
I have touched hands with some high level Taiji guys and their smoothness was formidable, but once they were taken out of the thier comfort zone and but on the ground, as an example, they became "stiff" and "tired out quickly".
This is a very common occurence in ANY physical activity that a person is NOT used to doing.
Another example is the relaxed running of a marathon runner turning into a stiff and tired swimmer after just 1 lap or the case of a good friend of mine that is a high level Triathalon and is smooth and relaxed in swimming, running and cycling, but gassed in 2 rounds on the Heavy Bag.

Muscles tend to be very specific in their abiblity to stave off lactic acid AND to relax, perhaps more so than their ability to produce strength.

Again, the issue that you are seeing and feeling have more to do with not having the correct neuro-muscular pathways set in, then they do with "big muscles".


Well put but also pointless ……..I think the problem is perception born out of experiences, HW108 experiences (as he keeps telling us) is different from a lot of peoples here so his views are different, and whilst discussing differing views is what a forum is for…….once it becomes clear that no one is going to change their views anytime soon and is just repeating the same argument post after post its probably better for everyone’s sanity we just agree to disagree

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well put but also pointless ……..I think the problem is perception born out of experiences, HW108 experiences (as he keeps telling us) is different from a lot of peoples here so his views are different, and whilst discussing differing views is what a forum is for…….once it becomes clear that no one is going to change their views anytime soon and is just repeating the same argument post after post its probably better for everyone’s sanity we just agree to disagree

You may be right, but if someone is reading this and gets some bit of info then, it was worth it.

[Scott R. Brown]

Well put but also pointless ……..I think the problem is perception born out of experiences, HW108 experiences (as he keeps telling us) is different from a lot of peoples here so his views are different, and whilst discussing differing views is what a forum is for…….once it becomes clear that no one is going to change their views anytime soon and is just repeating the same argument post after post its probably better for everyone’s sanity we just agree to disagree

Which is why I mostly post nonsense now!:(:p:D:cool:

[taai gihk yahn]

Which is why I mostly post nonsense now!:(:p:D:cool:

I thought that it was for the fame and fortune and everything that goes with it...

[David Jamieson]

ass bum **** reptile pinafore squueze box hammer head shark piano.

[Scott R. Brown]

I thought that it was for the fame and fortune and everything that goes with it...

Uhhhh..........you are not supposed to reveal professional secrets to the rabble!

Now you've done it.......and I am afraid I'm gonna have to kill you!:o

[Scott R. Brown]

ass bum **** reptile pinafore squueze box hammer head shark piano.

Fa la la la laaaaaaa.........la la la la!

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcvVPuJVKcs

[Hardwork108]

The "stiffness" you feel has to do with NOT knowing the way to move, it has nothing to do with muscle stiffness ( muscles aren't stiff).

I would suggest then that the way the muscles are trained causes the stiffness in question. To create the "softness" required to pull of some of the TCMA strategies/techniques, one will require "softness", the degree of which may vary depending on the style one is practicing.



I have touched hands with some high level Taiji guys and their smoothness was formidable,
That is what I am talking about, but in Chow Gar context. Many times, the methodology used get that smoothness and softness, will have its own concepts and principles, which in the case of the Chow Gar that I practice discourages weight training.


but once they were taken out of the thier comfort zone and but on the ground, as an example, they became "stiff" and "tired out quickly".
That is fair enough. However, I believe based on what I was taught that the well trained softness and "relaxdness", together with the state of a mind like water, should be constant. Those who master this should know that the benefits of this are the same, wether one is on the ground or not. Of course, training for the ground, or at least how not to go to the ground, will be an immense help.:D



Another example is the relaxed running of a marathon runner turning into a stiff and tired swimmer after just 1 lap or the case of a good friend of mine that is a high level Triathalon and is smooth and relaxed in swimming, running and cycling, but gassed in 2 rounds on the Heavy Bag.

As I mentioned before, ultimately the mastering of a state of relaxdness and softness in physical movement should be constant. Of course, that does not mean that one will not gas out if does activities he is not used to, but even the gasing out should be in a less dramatic way.



Again, the issue that you are seeing and feeling have more to do with not having the correct neuro-muscular pathways set in, then they do with "big muscles".
I believe that that is part of the story. A relatively fit and muscular newbie coming in from say a karate training background, will feel stiff and "hollow", to me when touching hands through some of the two man chow gar exercises. However, in time following the specific methodology, he will begin loosing his stiffness and hollowness. He will then begin creating internal connectivity in ways he never thought possible, but even so, he would be discouraged from doing weight lifting, and even regular push ups. And of course, in time he won't want to anyway when he sees the results of this particular methodology as regards his strength/power and body hardness (shield).

I am king of sorry, because this is difficult to explain in writing....

[Hardwork108]

Well put but also pointless ……..I think the problem is perception born out of experiences, HW108 experiences (as he keeps telling us) is different from a lot of peoples here so his views are different, and whilst discussing differing views is what a forum is for…….once it becomes clear that no one is going to change their views anytime soon and is just repeating the same argument post after post its probably better for everyone’s sanity we just agree to disagree

We can agree to disagree, or we can agree that there are TCMA methodologies that we do not know of, therefore do not understand. No shame in that, either.

As always, there are more than one ways of skinning a cat, and no one is expected to know them all. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Different kind of muscle indeed :)
http://www.bennadel.com/resources/uploads/sexy_girl_with_amazing_ab_muscles_femuscle.jpg

http://ultimatesixpackguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/fitness-models-sexy-naked-abs-laura-daley-pictures.jpg

[Hardwork108]

Different kind of muscle indeed :)
http://www.bennadel.com/resources/uploads/sexy_girl_with_amazing_ab_muscles_femuscle.jpg

http://ultimatesixpackguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/fitness-models-sexy-naked-abs-laura-daley-pictures.jpg

Wow, I never imagined Frost to be so muscle-bound....:D:)

[A BIONIC LEG]

different kind of muscle indeed :)
http://www.bennadel.com/resources/uploads/sexy_girl_with_amazing_ab_muscles_femuscle.jpg

http://ultimatesixpackguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/fitness-models-sexy-naked-abs-laura-daley-pictures.jpg

wow betty! :d

[A BIONIC LEG]

So I had debated weather or not to start a new thread or not with this question but I saw it pop up a coupple of times here so I'll ask.

Can someone please tell me (in simple people tearms :)) the diffrence between internal and external Kung Fu? :confused: I have had it described as tai chi is internal but that still doesn't answer the question.

Could it be explained as internal being the distance needed to strike an oponet being within a certain distance (e.g. 2 inch punch) external, a general snap kick?

IM SO CONFUSED! :mad:

[bawang]

originally internal means chinese martial arts. external means chinese martial art with foreign influence.

after 1900s internal means magic chi powers. external means no magic chi powers.

this video explains your question
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcvVPuJVKcs

[Scott R. Brown]

External means you are the pitcher!

Internal means you are the catcher!

:eek:

[lkfmdc]

originally internal means chinese martial arts. external means chinese martial art with foreign influence.

after 1900s internal means magic chi powers. external means no magic chi powers.



BINGO

And even though this is explained in several well written books in English, people ignore it

[sanjuro_ronin]

BINGO

And even though this is explained in several well written books in English, people ignore it

Even when well respected masters and MA scholars like Adam Hsu say the same thing, people ignore it.
Some people will always prefer to believe certain things over facts.

[bawang]

movies give very powerful images. sometimes the lie is better than the real thing.

[Scott R. Brown]

everyone wants to believe in magic!

[Frost]

Even when well respected masters and MA scholars like Adam Hsu say the same thing, people ignore it.
Some people will always prefer to believe certain things over facts.

Some people like to think what they do is secret/special and no amount of evidence can convince them otherwise, they will argue that people like Adam Hsu don’t know the real Chinese arts or have trained them with the real masters…and when this argument is shot down by simply listing his teachers and styles they will still continue to argue and say he is keeping the real stuff from us because it’s a secret

Its just pointless, its like arguing over religion with a fundermentalist you can never win because with certain people facts and evidence don’t matter, all that matters is their beliefs

[lkfmdc]

Some people like to think what they do is secret/special and no amount of evidence can convince them otherwise, they will argue that people like Adam Hsu don’t know the real Chinese arts or have trained them with the real masters…and when this argument is shot down by simply listing his teachers and styles they will still continue to argue and say he is keeping the real stuff from us because it’s a secret





Something about this is very familiar LOL ;)

[YouKnowWho]

the diffrence between internal and external Kung Fu?
Have you ever attend "Taiji Lagecy" tournament event? In that tournament, the judges are divided into "internal", "external", and "Shanshou". The "internal" judges stand in the front row, the "external" judges stand on the 2nd row, and the "Shanshou" judges stand on the back. During the parade, the "internal" judges will walk first with their head up. The "external" judges walk with their head down, and those "Shanshou" judges walk at the end as if they are just barely accepted by the CMA community.

I had attanded that event for the last past 10 years. Every year I tried to "upgrade" myself and hided myself in the "internal" judges group, I was always detected, dragged out by force, and send back to where I belong. :o

[taai gihk yahn]

Another distinction from a Taoist practice perspective is that internal practice rreferred to things like sitting meditation / visualization as opposed to any sort of kinetic practice; which kinda makes sense in regards to making a distinction; but this is no way similar to the division of some styles as internal and others as external or even techniques being one or the other

The problem is that somewhere along the line so-called internal stylists developed a superiority complex, as if to say that what they did was more complex, refined, holistic and effective for both fighting and health; in my personal experience, it's a great example of what Chogyun Trungpa used to call spiritual materialism...

[Lucas]

everyone wants to believe in magic!

I blame that ronald mcdonald jerk off

[Eric Olson]

A person that can clean and jerk 150 kilos will be strong, period.
And that strength WILL translate to the specificity of ANY MA, internal or otherwise.


That's a good one...

EO

[Jimbo]

The ones who refer to themselves as 'internal stylists' are the ones who place such an emphasis on 'internal/external styles.' You hear a lot of, "I'm an internal stylist," but how often do you hear someone say, "I'm an external stylist"? Saying 'internal style' is basically saying, "I'm in the know; I have something you don't, so I'm better than you." Such a delusion can be easy to maintain if they have never 'crossed hands' outside of their own small circle/society.

In the end, you're either truly competent in whatever art you train in, or you are not.

[David Jamieson]

"internal" is yin fu hogwash promoted to make money and to allow for fighters who don't fight. :rolleyes: :D

[-N-]

During the parade, the "internal" judges will walk first with their head up. The "external" judges walk with their head down, and those "Shanshou" judges walk at the end as if they are just barely accepted by the CMA community.

Classic :D


I had attanded that event for the last past 10 years. Every year I tried to "upgrade" myself and hided myself in the "internal" judges group, I was always detected, dragged out by force, and send back to where I belong. :o

Maybe they were giving you a chance to use chi blast :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

So how do you internally move a couch? or a fridge or a sack of cement?

[-N-]

So how do you internally move a couch? or a fridge or a sack of cement?

You just wave your hands, and your students make the couches fly around for you :D

I saw it once on youtube.

[wenshu]

I study internal martial arts.
Translation:

I am too lazy to train the areas in which I am the weakest, but I need to feel superior.

Pure narcissistic superciliousness.

Those who claim the superiority of this arbitrary bifurcation are no different than the micro-cephalic testicular attenuated exogenous hormone imbalanced pituitary mutants shopping for Affliction beanies at Walmart.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Translation:


Pure narcissistic superciliousness.

Those who claim the superiority of this arbitrary bifurcation are no different than the micro-cephalic testicular attenuated exogenous hormone imbalanced pituitary mutants shopping for Affliction beanies at Walmart.

The sheer awesomeness of this awesome post is more awesome than awesomeness can possibly ever be !!
And there is no charge for awesomeness !
:D

[taai gihk yahn]

"internal" is yin fu hogwash promoted to make money and to allow for fighters who don't fight. :rolleyes: :D

to be fair, I think if you are going to blame anyone it would be Sun Lu Tang, as he wrote extensively with the intended purpose of staking claim to the "internal" moniker for the Big Three...

[lkfmdc]

Have you ever attend "Taiji Lagecy" tournament event? In that tournament, the judges are divided into "internal", "external", and "Shanshou". The "internal" judges stand in the front row, the "external" judges stand on the 2nd row, and the "Shanshou" judges stand on the back. During the parade, the "internal" judges will walk first with their head up. The "external" judges walk with their head down, and those "Shanshou" judges walk at the end as if they are just barely accepted by the CMA community.

I had attanded that event for the last past 10 years. Every year I tried to "upgrade" myself and hided myself in the "internal" judges group, I was always detected, dragged out by force, and send back to where I belong. :o

At a USA WKF event one year, one of the internal judges wanted to be a sanshou judge. So mr flowing Chinese rob is sitting in the corner, his calls are always different from the other 4 judges. Then he has his student come up to fight, too few judges so he still judges this one.

Well, his student gets knocked out in the first round, but mr internal says "I still think he won, his technique was better" :eek:

[lkfmdc]

to be fair, I think if you are going to blame anyone it would be Sun Lu Tang, as he wrote extensively with the intended purpose of staking claim to the "internal" moniker for the Big Three...

Does windows say it is worse than MAC?

[YouKnowWho]

Well, his student gets knocked out in the first round, but mr internal says "I still think he won, his technique was better" :eek:

Teacher always told us, "Those who stand on his feet always have better technique than those who lie down on the ground."

[lkfmdc]

Teacher always told us, "Those who stand on his feet always have better technique than those who lie down on the ground."

well, your teacher was a heck of a man wasnt he!

[lkfmdc]

You know, thinking back, the time I spent with the Shuai Jiao people is probably the beginning of my skeptical attitude. Shihfu Jeng didn't buy into a lot of the TCMA things

[YouKnowWho]

one of the internal judges wanted to be a sanshou judge.
One year I upset those Shaolin monks big time because they tried to compete in both modern Wushu and TCMA form competation, I didn't think they should be qualified to compete in the TCMA division. I was "downgrade" from "external" judge to "Sanshou" judge after that. It just pulls me away from my ultimate dream (to be treated as "internal"). :(

[lkfmdc]

One year I upset those Shaolin monks big time because they tried to compete in both modern Wushu and traditional form competation, I was "downgrade" from "external" judge to "Shanshou" judge. :(

A certain "famous master" tried to tell me that contemporary wushu was actualy traditional southern style at one of the "big events" from my period. I told them "NO" and said I didn't care how big their name was, it was obvious they were wrong, well, the promoter got upset, "that's a famous master"

Like I care ;)

[bawang]

as long as money and business is the number 1 goal in kung fu these fa gots are always gonna stay on top.

[A BIONIC LEG]

originally internal means chinese martial arts. external means chinese martial art with foreign influence.

after 1900s internal means magic chi powers. external means no magic chi powers.

this video explains your question
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcvVPuJVKcs

Ok first off, you crack me up with your youtube. Unfourtunately the internet where I work is pretty crappy so any youtube video over 4 minutes will not load.

Seccond out of all the responses I saw yours was the only one that seemed to have some sort of answere that was not shrouded with termanology I don't understand. I'll be frank, my martial arts experience is combined over 2 years tops, so a good majority of what I have learned about my style works (history or present) has been within the past year.

With that being said could you please point me in the direction as to where you got that information?

My next question then would be, could internal / external be described in physical terms?

[Hardwork108]

A certain "famous master" tried to tell me that contemporary wushu was actualy traditional southern style at one of the "big events" from my period. I told them "NO" and said I didn't care how big their name was, it was obvious they were wrong, well, the promoter got upset, "that's a famous master"

Like I care ;)


So, famous masters can be WRONG if they disagree with you, but if they agree with you, then they are always right?

Interesting.......

[Hardwork108]

I will comment here as you are one of the few people in this forum that has a certain point of reference.


to be fair, I think if you are going to blame anyone it would be Sun Lu Tang, as he wrote extensively with the intended purpose of staking claim to the "internal" moniker for the Big Three...

I would hazard a guess,

1. when Sun Lu Tang did what he did, he did so to distinguish between two distinct methodologies. It just happens that he used the Internal/External labels.

2. He chose to refer to his methodologies as Internal as when compared to the other methodologies the bio mechanisms involved were not so apparent to the "not initiated".

3. His methodologies' aim at creating unity deeper within the body, using exercises such as Zhan Zhuang AND other distinct practices, not seen in most schools out there, may have persuaded him that Internal was a good description for these distinct systems of practice.

By the way, these practices are not about "chi blasts" and "magic powers", terms that are often used by those who have no idea what these methodologies are about, use to dismiss them, so as to feel good about themselves, and in their mindset of "I would have known, if there was anything else out there", which has more to do with pure ego, verging on insecurity, rather than anything else.

The methodologies in question are as scientific as the external approach. They are not taught openly, mainly for 2 reasons:

1. Over 95% of people who call themselves "sifus", have no idea.

2. Many of the few who know, do not teach it just to anyone, because some of the gungs/gongs are considered treasures of a given style, hence are NOT taught openly, and can really give you the upper hand in combat situations, when facing opponents from other MAs who have no idea that such methodologies even exist.


Of course, I believe that there is a logic in referring to the related methodologies of internal energy development and meditation, which together with other exercises result in combat wise applicable fine-tuned, "softness" and "sensitivity"/"listening" skills - as Internals, because again, they describe the creation of physical faculties that are not so apparent when compared to the more common modes of exercises, that ended up being referred to as the "Externals".

[Scott R. Brown]

With that being said could you please point me in the direction as to where you got that information?

My next question then would be, could internal / external be described in physical terms?

Bawang claims to be Chinese, so all of his knowledge is genetically coded into his DNA. He "knows" because he is Chinese!

The terms "internal" and "external" as applied to the martial arts is generally attributed Sun Lutang who applied those terms to the martial arts in the early 1900's.

Internal refers to a form of training that emphasizes mental rather than physical training. Not that there is no physical training within internal systems. But, in general, power is generated by the relaxation of the body and the focus of the mind combined with correct applicaion of biomechanics. This form of training is thought to be of benefit to the small and weak because it is sold as a means for the small and weak to overcome the large and powerful.

Internal methods are generally criticized because some of the claims made about its efficacy are based upon fantasy.

External means power is developed primarily through physical means, such as utilizing ones strength and size. External methods still use biomechanics as well as size and strength and almost always succeeds against internal practitioners. That is, internal practioners that train according to the fantasy as opposed to training according to the proper utilization of the principles of biomechanics and conservation of energy.

The term "internal" in reference to "mental training" goes as far back as at least 350 B.C. or so to a short Taoist treatise, which predates the Tao Te Ching, entitled "Nei Yeh" (Internal Training)! This work details a meditational method for bringing oneself into accord with Tao, and developing peace of mind.

[A BIONIC LEG]

Thanks Scott and HW8, I think I'm starting to get it, I know for some of you guys that have been doing this for a minute this is yesterdays news but I'm just starting to scratch the surface. I looked up Sun Lutang in wiki and I'm reading some stuff right now. Hopefully the light will "click" on soon.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Bionic leg,
Regardless of what intertnal and external USED to mean, nowadays they refer to two different methods and Scott pretty much summed them up.
I will add only this:
Nothing is ever "internal or external" only, EVERY movement we do requires our muscles (external) and doing them correctly requires structure and correct alignment ( internal).
All Tai chi is internal and all Tai Chi is external.
Regardless of what anyone would like to think or say, we do have to bases things on demonstrabale facts.
Physical prowess is easy to see and be measured, we see it all the time, from the elite of the elite to the average joe.
Context is everything.
Why are YOU doing MA?

[A BIONIC LEG]

Bionic leg,
Regardless of what intertnal and external USED to mean, nowadays they refer to two different methods and Scott pretty much summed them up.
I will add only this:
Nothing is ever "internal or external" only, EVERY movement we do requires our muscles (external) and doing them correctly requires structure and correct alignment ( internal).
All Tai chi is internal and all Tai Chi is external.
Regardless of what anyone would like to think or say, we do have to bases things on demonstrabale facts.
Physical prowess is easy to see and be measured, we see it all the time, from the elite of the elite to the average joe.
Context is everything.
Why are YOU doing MA?

Ok that does seem to make more sense. I had asked this question because of a statement my Sifu made a few months ago got me thinking.

He said a few years ago he was invited to the states to a masters demo and it was said that there would be demonstrations of internal / external. However when he watched the "demos" no one could truly demonstrate the diffrence.

When I asked him to explain the diffrence he gave me the example of 2 in punch or "spear to the throat" (sorry don't know what the acctual name is) and that's where I got the "distance" theroy.

As far as why I practice MA... I do it for 3 reasons. First... health, I turned 30 last year and I can run circles arround my suborndanates that are barely in their 20s. Seccond, through the practice of Kung Fu I can do things that I wouldn't dream of other wise ( jumping inside cresent kick 3 finger push ups hell a basic spinning sweep) and that makes me pretty **** proud of myself. And finally I see it as a way of expressing myself like say an artist would or a pro athlet.

I am a musician and to me Kung Fu and music are one and the same in that there is a flow in how a punch or kick is executed. My instrument is lattin percussion so you can see how they would translate. MA is the next logical step.

[bawang]

With that being said could you please point me in the direction as to where you got that information?

My next question then would be, could internal / external be described in physical terms?

wang zhengnan, 1617-1669, creator of inner boxing. his student wrote a short article about him

in physical terms

this guy is external
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfkfvWMzPE8&feature=related
this guy is internal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpvEaGkC9MA

[David Jamieson]

Wait...I can get an Affliction beanie at Walmart?

Did I read that?

AWESOME!!!

As for Sun Lu Tang and his claims...fair enough. He is one generation after Yin Fu and his Teacher Cheng was classmates with Yin Fu under Dong himself. Probably my muddles mental Dewey decimal filing system.

Anyway, the concept is still erroneous and there are still plenty of people out there who buy that nonsense and yes they are the exact same people who can't fight, talk to much about fighting, never fight and insist they are correct about how to go about fighting.

so dishonest with the self in many ways. Almost to the point where it is not worth pursuing considering the amount of delusion that is caused by it's practice. Give me a real aching sweat inducing workout any day!

[bawang]

sun lutang was a good xingyi fighter. he fought a few guys in his day. but he was also a smart businessman.

[David Jamieson]

sun lutang was a good xingyi fighter. he fought a few guys in his day. but he was also a smart businessman.

Hearsay.

All hearsay when it comes to the old timers.

[bawang]

sun lutang was among the top guys who made it into imperial capital. if you think he sucks then you need to quit chinese martial arts because theres nothing better.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Any guy named S lu t Ang is ok by me !
:D

[Frost]

Something about this is very familiar LOL ;)

thats because its not a made up story, i actually had that discussion with you know who a while back..........

[Hardwork108]

Wait...I can get an Affliction beanie at Walmart?

Did I read that?

AWESOME!!!

As for Sun Lu Tang and his claims...fair enough. He is one generation after Yin Fu and his Teacher Cheng was classmates with Yin Fu under Dong himself. Probably my muddles mental Dewey decimal filing system.

Anyway, the concept is still erroneous and there are still plenty of people out there who buy that nonsense and yes they are the exact same people who can't fight, talk to much about fighting, never fight and insist they are correct about how to go about fighting.

so dishonest with the self in many ways. Almost to the point where it is not worth pursuing considering the amount of delusion that is caused by it's practice. Give me a real aching sweat inducing workout any day!

Sometimes, I don't think that you any of the threads you participate in....

[Hardwork108]

Hearsay.

All hearsay when it comes to the old timers.

Yes, we have all heard about his kung fu franchises in shopping malls all over the Western world. :rolleyes:

Some people say that Leong Ting is his decendent....:rolleyes:

Christ, every time I think that we can actually have an educational discussion, I get disappointed. :mad:

[Hardwork108]

Some people like to think what they do is secret/special and no amount of evidence can convince them otherwise, they will argue that people like Adam Hsu don’t know the real Chinese arts or have trained them with the real masters… and when this argument is shot down by simply listing his teachers and styles they will still continue to argue and say he is keeping the real stuff from us because it’s a secret



Something about this is very familiar LOL



thats because its not a made up story, i actually had that discussion with you know who a while back..........

You are quoting the wrong guy about the wrong subject. Lkfmdc is a kickboxing coach.

Secondly, he has claimed more than once in the past that his own Lama Pai Grandmaster, legendary Chan Tai San, had secret training methodologies that he did not show anyone and kept them to himself.

So, chew on that FACT for a while.......;)

Incidentally, what do you think the late CTS would have said if outsider had asked him about the secret methodologies? Do you think he would have said that they exist, but he is not going to tell, or do you think he might have taken a line, such as that of Adam Hsu?

No matter, what he would have done, I know masters who do not refer to secret methodologies/techniques in public. When referring to a certain "gung" my Mantis sifu, said "they don't exist", as far as outsiders are concerned.

Again, I am just indicating that there are methodologies out there that none of us are aware of, so it is good to start living with this fact.........

[Hardwork108]

let.

I am a musician and to me Kung Fu and music are one and the same in that there is a flow in how a punch or kick is executed. My instrument is lattin percussion so you can see how they would translate. MA is the next logical step.

Flow, fluidity and "no mind".

By the way, viva Ray Barretto, Tito Puente, Giovany Hidalgo, and all the rest. ;)

[YouKnowWho]

had secret training methodologies that he did not show anyone and kept them to himself.
Sometime the secret training method is not the "secret", but what techniques that training method can "enhance". If you know what kind of training that someone did at home, you may be able to figure out what kind of moves that he may use on you if you challenge him. You may know that after the challenge, but since you won't know that before the fight, it can be called as "secret".

In the "Jiao Wang - Wrestling King" movie, the challenger sent his student to spy on the main actor's "secret" training method at home and found out this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUzE5MQhdcc

Besides training methods, Some teachers don't like to teach counters for his favor moves. Just for the sake of discussion, let me throw out a question here and see what kind of answers that we can collect from this.

If your opponent grabs your right upper arm and try to drag you as shown in the following clip, what will be your best counter then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5xXYMObi4o

[Scott R. Brown]

If your opponent grabs your upper arm and try to run through your side door and behind you. What will be your best counter then?

I would be cautious asking what is the "best" counter, because circumstances, which may vary, change.

However, in general, I would turn clockwise as he makes his attempt to circle behind me and enter to control or attack him from his side or from behind him as circumstances and my inclination dictates!

[Frost]

You are quoting the wrong guy about the wrong subject. Lkfmdc is a kickboxing coach.

Secondly, he has claimed more than once in the past that his own Lama Pai Grandmaster, legendary Chan Tai San, had secret training methodologies that he did not show anyone and kept them to himself.

So, chew on that FACT for a while.......;)

Incidentally, what do you think the late CTS would have said if outsider had asked him about the secret methodologies? Do you think he would have said that they exist, but he is not going to tell, or do you think he might have taken a line, such as that of Adam Hsu?

No matter, what he would have done, I know masters who do not refer to secret methodologies/techniques in public. When referring to a certain "gung" my Mantis sifu, said "they don't exist", as far as outsiders are concerned.

Again, I am just indicating that there are methodologies out there that none of us are aware of, so it is good to start living with this fact.........

have you actually read adam hsu's work....seriously have you?

[YouKnowWho]

I would be cautious asking what is the "best" counter, because circumstances, which may vary, change.

However, in general, I would turn clockwise as he makes his attempt to circle behind me and enter to control or attack him from his side or from behind him as circumstances and my inclination dictates!

From your description, your opponent may still have the upper hand. :p

How do you prevent your opponent from borrowing your force and pull you even harder and "lead you into the emptiness"?

Would you mind to share a clip for your counter for the sake of discussion?

[Frost]

You are quoting the wrong guy about the wrong subject. Lkfmdc is a kickboxing coach.

Secondly, he has claimed more than once in the past that his own Lama Pai Grandmaster, legendary Chan Tai San, had secret training methodologies that he did not show anyone and kept them to himself.

So, chew on that FACT for a while.......;)

Incidentally, what do you think the late CTS would have said if outsider had asked him about the secret methodologies? Do you think he would have said that they exist, but he is not going to tell, or do you think he might have taken a line, such as that of Adam Hsu?

No matter, what he would have done, I know masters who do not refer to secret methodologies/techniques in public. When referring to a certain "gung" my Mantis sifu, said "they don't exist", as far as outsiders are concerned.

Again, I am just indicating that there are methodologies out there that none of us are aware of, so it is good to start living with this fact.........

Ok firstly no one is actually talking about secret skills (so put your high horse away) we are talking about the internal/external debate

Secondly Ross has listed who he trained with and his master is considered the real deal so he at least has a reference for taking part in the conversation, seeing as he also studied with Adam Hsu amongst others

Thirdly he and CTS’s other students have said over and over what CTS thought of those claiming magic skills and secret skills, his response to being asked about di mak was poke the eye kick the groin

Did CTS have skills others can only dream of? probably how much was that due to secrets and how much to just training like a mad man for decades with the best in the world who knows? Lama Pai sifu said he learned the iron finger skills from CTS, but seeing as he didn’t do the necessary daily training the skills left him (if I remember rightly)

Back on the main topic As taai gihk yahn pointed out Sun Lu Tang, can take a lot of the blame for the internal/external debate, he wanted to claim the internal moniker of the big three……..for marketing purposes to make his product seem unique…...he certainly made a success of that we can be certain he did not include chow gar in his list so what makes you think it deserves to be their if he didn’t?

And lastly what is internal? chow gar is seem by some Jook-Lum guys as too stiff and too external, some chow gar guys see other branches of mantis as too soft (remember that video of James Cama put up last year for example)…………….
Northern styles would not class hakka arts as truly internal, Taoist arts would probably not see baji etc as internal, it goes on and on, its all relative and largely pointless, other than from a marketing point of view that is

All arts strive for the same result: efficiency of movement, which usually means whole body power and unity in motion and the ability to read the opponents intent and beat him, not all arts go about it the same way, but if your argument is that because certain arts don’t do it the same way as your art they are not internal, than surely since chow gar does not train the same way as bagua or tai chi, it too is not classed as internal as Taoist martial artist see internal?. Now if you are going to argue all internal arts share certain common principles then what are they as you see them, obviously its not the classical divide between Taoist and other arts, because chow gar is not Taoist so what exactly is it………….

[CFT]

Did CTS have skills others can only dream of? probably how much was that due to secrets and how much to just training like a mad man for decades with the best in the world who knows? Lama Pai sifu said he learned the iron finger skills from CTS, but seeing as he didn’t do the necessary daily training the skills left him (if I remember rightly)You remember correctly, or we share the same misconception.

Good post about the internal/external issue.

[sanjuro_ronin]

More often than not, the "secret" skills were forms of conditioning that are no longer secret, things like the "iron" gungs ( Palm, fist, fingers, arm, skin, body, etc) or they were specialized moves that very few had seen ( surprise element).

[Frost]

You know that I know that……..BUT………..

Still that does still not cover the actual topic here, what is internal and how is it classified by those who consider themselves internal, if its not because of the secret training then what is it because of?

What makes bagua internal in someone’s eyes but not hung gar

What makes chow gar internal in someone’s eys but not Baji

What makes tai chi internal but not wing chun (again in someones eyes)

And if someone does see chow gar, tai chi as internal but not hung gar or baji again what is the common thread that ties them together?

Its not enough to say they have a common goal of skill over coming strength, use visualisation moving meditation etc, develop sensitivity and no mind etc because all arts strive for this and use similar processes to varying degrees to get the same result (wrestlers will practice slow drills on their own visualizing what there opponent will do in this or that situation , boxers will shadow box imagining how their opponent moves, striving to move with minimual muscular effort in order to maximise conditioning and power) including grappling arts and other so called external arts…so how do people who believe in the internal/external split define it………..

[David Jamieson]

You know that I know that……..BUT………..

Still that does still not cover the actual topic here, what is internal and how is it classified by those who consider themselves internal, if its not because of the secret training then what is it because of?

What makes bagua internal in someone’s eyes but not hung gar

What makes chow gar internal in someone’s eys but not Baji

What makes tai chi internal but not wing chun (again in someones eyes)

And if someone does see chow gar, tai chi as internal but not hung gar or baji again what is the common thread that ties them together?

Its not enough to say they have a common goal of skill over coming strength, use visualisation moving meditation etc, develop sensitivity and no mind etc because all arts strive for this and use similar processes to varying degrees to get the same result (wrestlers will practice slow drills on their own visualizing what there opponent will do in this or that situation , boxers will shadow box imagining how their opponent moves, striving to move with minimual muscular effort in order to maximise conditioning and power) including grappling arts and other so called external arts…so how do people who believe in the internal/external split define it………..

As stated, Blame Sun LU Tang. He's the one who made up the term and the division.

jerk. :p

[lkfmdc]

Frost

Man, dude, have you not learned yet

http://warriorwriters.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/troll.jpg

[Violent Designs]

And lastly what is internal? chow gar is seem by some Jook-Lum guys as too stiff and too external, some chow gar guys see other branches of mantis as too soft (remember that video of James Cama put up last year for example)…………….
Northern styles would not class hakka arts as truly internal, Taoist arts would probably not see baji etc as internal, it goes on and on, its all relative and largely pointless, other than from a marketing point of view that is

All arts strive for the same result: efficiency of movement, which usually means whole body power and unity in motion and the ability to read the opponents intent and beat him, not all arts go about it the same way, but if your argument is that because certain arts don’t do it the same way as your art they are not internal, than surely since chow gar does not train the same way as bagua or tai chi, it too is not classed as internal as Taoist martial artist see internal?. Now if you are going to argue all internal arts share certain common principles then what are they as you see them, obviously its not the classical divide between Taoist and other arts, because chow gar is not Taoist so what exactly is it………….

Internal/External debate is also caused by Chinese philosophy rooted in Confucianism.

Much of Chinese martial arts moved away away from combat and barbaric roots once war-torn period turned into peaceful periods.

For a society embedded with Confucian philosophy the life goal of men should to pursue virtue and cultivate one self.

Thus, many martial art moved away from the practical, to the esoteric and philosophical.

Fighting is barbaric. It is not the engagement of the Junzi [君子] or "virtuous man."

Now, being a "scholar" (the highest attainment of political rank, and social order in China) who is an educated master of medicine, philosophy, literature, calligraphy - that is no longer barbaric!!!

For Chinese, it is better to be more civilized and worse at fighting, then really good at fighting and less civilized.

Hence you have the problem of everyone wanting to the more "internal" than the rest since the divide between external and internal. Because "internal" now represent "cultivated virtue" and external represent "barbaric violence."

This is a bit of a history/philosophy intertwined into it all. Hope you find this interesting. Being a study of East Asian History I try to apply everything I learn and know to Chinese martial art and why it undergo the changes/evolution it did.

[A BIONIC LEG]

I don't know man, from what I'm learning here in the discussion it does look like the termanology was made up for publicity. But the more I meditate on it I tend to aggree with what was said eairlier in that internal, is a whole body response to an action, and by whole I mean EVERYTHING, tendons, deep muscle tissue, everything.

Would iron body would be an example in this case? The whole body working in unison to "lock" into place preventing damage from an external source? And say a strike out of Hung Gar 5 animal as being classified as external?

[Violent Designs]

I don't know man, from what I'm learning here in the discussion it does look like the termanology was made up for publicity. But the more I meditate on it I tend to aggree with what was said eairlier in that internal, is a whole body response to an action, and by whole I mean EVERYTHING, tendons, deep muscle tissue, everything.

Would iron body would be an example in this case? The whole body working in unison to "lock" into place preventing damage from an external source? And say a strike out of Hung Gar 5 animal as being classified as external?

I hate using terms internal and external. What are words? What is speech? What is language?

A method of conveying abstract thoughts and concepts into physical tonal distinctions.

I only believe in the way of the human body. There is "internal" and "external" in EVERYTHING we do in my humble opinion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't know man, from what I'm learning here in the discussion it does look like the termanology was made up for publicity. But the more I meditate on it I tend to aggree with what was said eairlier in that internal, is a whole body response to an action, and by whole I mean EVERYTHING, tendons, deep muscle tissue, everything.

Would iron body would be an example in this case? The whole body working in unison to "lock" into place preventing damage from an external source? And say a strike out of Hung Gar 5 animal as being classified as external?

Whole body?
Dude, do you think you can clean and jerk 300lbs without whole body activity ?
Nope.
The form typcally noted as internal in HK is the iron wire and it is internal in the sense that a lo is going one 'beneath the surface", same goes with the iron vest or golden bell or any of the "iron gungs".
But NOT in the way so many IMA think and want to think of as internal.
Example:
The Iron Palm.
It is basically a conditioning exercise in which the hand is conditioned to deliver powerful strikes ( external) and how this happens is via the process of repetive low impact trauma ( external) to the bones that causes micro-fissures that, as they heal, make the bones denser ( internal).
This is not new or specific to TCMA or IMA, this is Wolf's Law and is part of sports science.