how would you fight this guy?

[kung fu fighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un8sBBdTWt8&feature=related

[wtxs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un8sBBdTWt8&feature=related

How would you fight this guy? Very carefully. :p

[Hendrik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un8sBBdTWt8&feature=related



Should I post this?

Frank, and violence Design what do you think?



Damage his first strike arm and ONLY after then go for the center line.

Going for the center line directly is a kiss of death because his momentum, angling, chain effect and mobility is difficult to be handle.

You cripped the strike arm, you open a hole on his momentum, and you dis arm his chain effect. you jam the combination snow balling effect, it becomes a car which can only drive right or left but not both side because one wheel has been damage. then you dont have to hurt him but control him by stick to the good hand and always has pressure on his middle door. That is the WCK two hands trade mark game. But then you need to know how to play with momentum otherwise he can still use his body to crash you and take you out.

like an eagle with only a wing it is not that scary. but if you facing an eagle with both wings that is a scary story.

[jesper]

tire him out. shouldnt take long since he is in so bad shape:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fight him the same way I would fight anyone else,. why?

[hskwarrior]

LOL...some of the comments are funny. first, i'd like to point out, Grand Master Lacey was only demonstrating certain techniques. They weren't "live" as in sparring. only being honest and never to show him disrespect stagnant techniques (meaning non mobile) are good but in some ways unrealistic. It would never go down that way. why? who would just stand there and let that happen to him?


Originally Posted by Hendrik:
Damage his first strike arm and ONLY after then go for the center line.

I don't want to give up too much of CLF's fighting stategy but, you got to realize that CLF loves Sam Sing training and we make use of tough forearms. if you put too much focus on trying to damage an arm that can take it you may get surprised by his quick follow up strike. you never know if you're being set up for something more powerful.

As another style, you shouldn't "expect" CLF to do or look anything stereotypical in combat as each person due to shape and size are different so we focus on what suits us best within the CLF arsenal.


You cripped the strike arm, you open a hole on his momentum, and you dis arm his chain effect. you jam the combination snow balling effect, it becomes a car which can only drive right or left but not both side because one wheel has been damage.

What if you didn't cripple the first strike because he knew what you would do? as soon as you make contact with his strike arm and ready to attack would you be ready for his follow up techniques? they wouldn't all come from one direction.

Our Blitz or snowballing effect doesn't happen in blind manner either. we don't just charge in swinging blindly. when bridges are made we act accordingly. and CLF is good on both left and right so if one side breaks down we still have the other. :D

[hskwarrior]

Sanjuro are you a wing chun guy? this is a WC - CLF issue here LOL

[free2flow]

i will ask myself first, how am i training myself to deal with those kinds of attacks and what level of difficulty those attacks coming at me that i'm practicing against.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro are you a wing chun guy? this is a WC - CLF issue here LOL

Fair enough, don't forget to shower when you leave this area Frank, LOL !

[Hendrik]

LOL...some of the comments are funny. first, i'd like to point out, Grand Master Lacey was only demonstrating certain techniques. They weren't "live" as in sparring. only being honest and never to show him disrespect stagnant techniques (meaning non mobile) are good but in some ways unrealistic. It would never go down that way. why? who would just stand there and let that happen to him?



I don't want to give up too much of CLF's fighting stategy but, you got to realize that CLF loves Sam Sing training and we make use of tough forearms. if you put too much focus on trying to damage an arm that can take it you may get surprised by his quick follow up strike. you never know if you're being set up for something more powerful.

As another style, you shouldn't "expect" CLF to do or look anything stereotypical in combat as each person due to shape and size are different so we focus on what suits us best within the CLF arsenal.



What if you didn't cripple the first strike because he knew what you would do? as soon as you make contact with his strike arm and ready to attack would you be ready for his follow up techniques? they wouldn't all come from one direction.

Our Blitz or snowballing effect doesn't happen in blind manner either. we don't just charge in swinging blindly. when bridges are made we act accordingly. and CLF is good on both left and right so if one side breaks down we still have the other. :D


Frank,

You bring up a very good point on not showing disrespect to GM Lacey. I agree.

You know this is tough stuffs. hahaha

Just to share with you a story when I was in college, some friends always want me to teach them WC. but I end up teach them basic CLF because I believe it is more useful in general.

So, a friend who I taught him only the combination basic such as the pow, cup, sou, kaw, chad, get into a fight in a chinese restorant and a few guys try to grap and wresel him.... , they end up flying away and they cant touch him and he walked away. He told me later, those stuffs are great, they coming at me, but they cant get hold of me and I smash them left right up down....

For me, talk is cheap those momentum stuffs are difficult to handle.


For me,
If you cant cripple him then you know dont fight; because you have a great match here.

only if you like to test out your skill and willing to take the consequence you go for it. otherwise walk away.

Usually I rather walk away or claim lost without getting into real exchange because real exchange means everything goes and damage is unpredictable. and no matter who get hurt that is no good. IMHO.

hahaha, if a WC man has no confident to cripple the CLF man's one side to jam his agile and momentum then walk away smile; it is better that way then walk away later both looks like Panda with black eyes. hahaha

[Hendrik]

I think it is a fatal erro if a WCner thinking one can attack the center line direct in this case. also, I think it is a fatal erro if the WCner thinking angling to avoid the strike. It is a momentum and distance game. not easy at all.

you need to take him face to face, cannot run away, and cannot get into trap.


What do you think Frank, Violent Design, Robert, KFF, Siheng?

[anerlich]

He's in the US and I'm in AUS. He'd have to come here because I'm not going to go there. Besides, I think one of my instructors knows him so I wouldn't out of respect.

What's with the recent WC/CLF hooha, anyway? Some sort of time warp going on?

[kung fu fighter]

I think it is a fatal erro if a WCner thinking one can attack the center line direct in this case. also, I think it is a fatal erro if the WCner thinking angling to avoid the strike. It is a momentum and distance game. not easy at all.

you need to take him face to face, cannot run away, and cannot get into trap.


What do you think Frank, Violent Design, Robert, KFF, Siheng?

one thing we must keep in mind is that that was just a demo, in reality he would be using footwork to change his angle and distance continously which would be even more scary.

First of all Hendrik, I agree with you in regards to not attacking the centerline directly, I think that's suicide, especially like most chunners do with chain punches. If you use the classic Leung Ting WT chain punching strategy, you might hit him, but he will most definately hit you as well, it will be an exchange not in your favour since his punching would be alot more powerful than yours.

I would use angles to close in as quickly as possible using good timing and distance control. Once i make contact with his bridge, i would continously stick and control him, thus distroying his body structure, not giving him any chance to play his game or control the distance that he needs to carry out his strategy.

[hskwarrior]

Fair enough, don't forget to shower when you leave this area Frank, LOL !

LMAO i won't brother LOL....oh thats too funny.

[hskwarrior]

f you cant cripple him then you know dont fight; because you have a great match here.

only if you like to test out your skill and willing to take the consequence you go for it. otherwise walk away.

Usually I rather walk away or claim lost without getting into real exchange because real exchange means everything goes and damage is unpredictable. and no matter who get hurt that is no good. IMHO.

hahaha, if a WC man has no confident to cripple the CLF man's one side to jam his agile and momentum then walk away smile; it is better that way then walk away later both looks like Panda with black eyes. hahaha

Hung Sing CLF people like to fight. So when it comes to mixing hands with other styles, we know that it gets hairy at times so we don't mix hands cause if we have to we strike to injure. its very much TIGER MENTALITY.

See, i think WC and CLF should get together and humbly discuss the styles differences on a peaceful level. one potential new student of mine was a Wing Chun student and when it came to sparring he thought he'd try to test out my student in my own school. I have a rule, if another style tries to test us in our own home, do what we do best.

To make a long story short, his friends were shouting out "number 4, number 4" which was like a reach and grab the back ofthe guys neck pull him in and hit him with an elbow". he tries it my student gives a retreat stance with a chuen la block circled around and chop choy'd him in the face. everyone was shocked cause the guy was young but considered pretty good in WC.

they went a few rounds but the WC guy wasn't conditioned enough to last how we spar for 3 minute rounds.

Still, i see many great beneifts of WC.

[hskwarrior]

I think it is a fatal erro if a WCner thinking one can attack the center line direct in this case. also, I think it is a fatal erro if the WCner thinking angling to avoid the strike. It is a momentum and distance game. not easy at all.

Sometimes CLF strikes are like heat seaking missiles. because of our circular movement of both footwork and hands, we cover ALL angles and even from some unsuspecting ones.

however, if a CLF guy tries to go up the centerline of a WC guy without a plan, he's done for. you have to expect that if you strike they will come in blazing as well. if you don't think a step ahead you're through.

[Hardwork108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un8sBBdTWt8&feature=related

Hendrik made a valid point. If one has the skill then he should damage the attacker's arm and then go on to take his central line.

My general strategy would be to angle and move in.

Also, there are ways of damgaging an attacker's arms regardless of how powerful his forearms are....

HW108

PS: Good to see you Hendrik. :)

[Hendrik]

I would use angles to close in as quickly as possible using good timing and distance control. Once i make contact with his bridge, i would continously stick and control him, thus distroying his body structure, not giving him any chance to play his game or control the distance that he needs to carry out his strategy.


IMHO, in general,

stick and control and distroying his body structure is not as easy as one think.

in general WCner is has less awareness and training of momentum and body structure compare with CLF people.

They know their body and momentum well and most WCner's structure and dynamic is bound to frontal and straight which is a small part of the totality.


I can be wrong, but that is the reality I observe. The general YJKYM training today with the forward pressure is not parr with the Ng Lun Ma
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IFSLJ0KVFs&feature=related


In reality,
The CLF Ng Lun Ma open up all the 20 channels of medirians while the GENERAL 90% of YJKYM pratice of WCK open up mostly 10 channels. So, that missing 10 channels means one will not be able to use the body as well as those open up more channels. That is a human body facts.

Thus, how is a person who open up only 10 channels has good control and be able to stick "fly" with the one who open up 20 channels?

also
I never buy those put your body behind the strike is the ultimate alibi in WCK. even if you put your body behind your strike, still, how many channels do you have command? 10 or 20? if 10 you still have only partial handling.


The above is just my view and there are unlimit way of seeing things and doing things. so share what you see.

[hskwarrior]

hus, how is a person who open up only 10 channels has good control and be able to stick "fly" with the one who open up 20 channels?


By evolving brother. find a friend, a good friend who does CLF and work to open them channels. growth is a great thing.

[hskwarrior]

The teacher of this guy is the one who showed bruce lee some CLF....

you can see how some attacks of CLF are like here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIwEGVGEAoQ

[Hendrik]

The teacher of this guy is the one who showed bruce lee some CLF....

you can see how some attacks of CLF are like here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIwEGVGEAoQ



I like the 0.25 section. that kind of stuffs is what I was taught about CLF by the older Gen Cho family member.

[Hendrik]

By evolving brother. find a friend, a good friend who does CLF and work to open them channels. growth is a great thing.



True,

or bring back the ancient WCK channels opening method.

The present rigid elbow in center line, clamping and forward pressing just cant do it naturally. it closes the channels.

[Hardwork108]

The teacher of this guy is the one who showed bruce lee some CLF....

you can see how some attacks of CLF are like here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIwEGVGEAoQ

CLF certainly seemst to be a rich system and I bet each lineage brings something special to the system.:)

[Hendrik]

So what is 20 channels medirians?


12 ordinary medirians + 8 special medirians. when the body moves it related to that. That is one of the way the ancient chinese define degree of freedom as in today's robotics, how many degree of freedom a robot in action has.

[chusauli]

Since Master Lacey is one of my KF brother's Sifu, I only have the greatest respect for him. He is an exceptional CLF man and Bak Sing CLF is one of the most practical TCMA systems for fighting - the 10 seeds, the combinations, the stepping in and out, leaking, taking angles, the Northern footwork and kicks, false/real hand methods all are exceptional in this art. They are formidable, but only if they really trained and tested their art out.

To answer how one would fight a CLF guy:

WCK has to shut them down by entering in, and one may pay by getting hit numerous times for that. WCK must use the "Lai Lou Hui Soong, Lut Sao Jik Chung", and Por Jung methods. It all depends on the skill and experience and condition of whom is fighting whom.

Another way is to break COG and throw, sweep, or take down into ground fighting, a medium many stand up fighters are weak in. From here, good ground position and control, softening up with ground and pound, and letting them gas out would be effective before the final submission, choke or continued GNP. If the other guy is a better grappler, you may be in trouble.

Of course, all this is hypothetical. Your mileage many vary. Its all really about who fights who.

[Hendrik]

CLF certainly seemst to be a rich system and I bet each lineage brings something special to the system.:)


CLF is the real system in the history of China which is carrying the Shao lin banner and fight the Qing big time with mass scale.

Another style which influencial as much or more is the White Crane of Fujian. With CLF in Canton 1850 and White Crane in Fujian/Taiwan 1650.



All the WCK his-story on the shao lin monks invented WCK to fight the Qing didnt have facture support. and WCK is not White CRane of Fujian.



Time to wake up and count how many channels of medirians one has handling or how holistic is the art.

[hskwarrior]

CLF certainly seemst to be a rich system and I bet each lineage brings something special to the system.

they do my brother, they do. although i have historical issues with other CLF families, our CLF is full of great stuff passed down by great teachers.

[hskwarrior]

One way a CLF fighter will shut down the WC style of chain punches is our Downward wlnd mill blows. this is what worked against bruce lee here in san francisco by my si sook gung.

[Hendrik]

TRue Robert.

If their engine is not jam solidly.
tough.

[Hendrik]

One way a CLF fighter will shut down the WC style of chain punches is our Downward wlnd mill blows. this is what worked against bruce lee here in san francisco by my si sook gung.


Agree.

I never think high about WCK's chain punch at all. lap da, Tan Da....is better then pure chain punch. WCK got to have more than that stuffs.

[hskwarrior]

it can brother. the WC as you know it can evolve as you see fit. it's in YOUR hands now.

[Liddel]

The guy "looks off balance" cant really say as this is just a demo but as a VT man i apperciate the round actions because thats what im suited best to deal with. Also the front bow footwork is a gem for a VT man.

I could take those punches so.... Cover and stomp a knee, then go for a beer.

P.S I think Paul has posted the most sensible thing here.

[Violent Designs]

The guy "looks off balance" cant really say as this is just a demo but as a VT man i apperciate the round actions because thats what im suited best to deal with. Also the front bow footwork is a gem for a VT man.

I could take those punches so.... Cover and stomp a knee, then go for a beer.

P.S I think Paul has posted the most sensible thing here.

You must be a really big guy if you can just take all those shots.

If you're a big guy (super heavyweight), 250 lbs+

Then it doesn't matter what martial art style you do.

You will probably smash most people.

[AdrianK]

How would I fight this guy?

Using the skills I've trained. Thats about as much answer as you can give without seeing the guy in a real fight. Demonstrations can reveal a bit about balance, speed and power, but they don't reveal anything substantial.

I'd assume he doesn't have great ground work so I'd probably try to work in a takedown and force ground game if I found an opening.

But aside from that, square up, test him a bit and see if I can find where some openings and weaknesses, then go from there.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un8sBBdTWt8&feature=related
Like any other guy.

[Liddel]

You must be a really big guy if you can just take all those shots.

If you're a big guy (super heavyweight), 250 lbs+

Then it doesn't matter what martial art style you do.

You will probably smash most people.

The question was how i would fight him, not be beaten by him. :cool:

Im not at all bigger than average, you put more trust in those types of shots being heavier than i do and thinking every one of them will land. But in any event taking shots whilst being covered and closing the gap to get close is the best way to deal with those shots IMO and being close is my game :rolleyes:

But i tell you this, ive taken heavier shots and been still in the game including having my nose broken and rugby has toughened my body so im not frail lol. Id expect anyone to be able to weather the storm get close enough land a knee stomp and follow up attacks thats an advanced fighter...

How would you fight Him, from outside range ?

[Violent Designs]

I got nothing for you, sorry.

[LoneTiger108]

See, i think WC and CLF should get together and humbly discuss the styles differences on a peaceful level.

With all respect I think that this has already been done by some ancestors of WCK and CLF although it is always good to exchange imho. In the UK there is very little CLF that is public, but the small groups I have met all seem like genuine nice guys, incl Dave Hawkins

http://www.choyleefut.co.uk/index.htm

Not sure exactly 'why' you would want to discuss differences though, as it will always end up in a fight of some sort! I love meeting martial artists and I personally have no hang-ups about other stylists or families, no matter how shaded our histories seem to be! So if you're ever in London look me up.

Great to see Hendrik and Robert posting again too. Been a while ;)

[wingchunIan]

not sure why this particular individual is the subject of a thread, it seems a little harsh. Seems some people are really hung up on past differences.
I would normally not respond to a post like this but some of the responses by WC folks have intruiged me, worrying about momentum and talking about attacking arms etc. With no disrespect to the individual in question or the syle being demonstrated, i'd be far more worried about a good tight boxer or muay thai fighter with similar experience, as they'd be less likely to be kind enough to turn their back or leave their centre line totally exposed. For those worried about momentum I'd say don't chase the arms, use footwork to close the range and attack the jic seen (in the same way as you fight an opponent with a baseball bat) and you stop the momentum dead.

[hskwarrior]

With all respect I think that this has already been done by some ancestors of WCK and CLF although it is always good to exchange imho. In the UK there is very little CLF that is public, but the small groups I have met all seem like genuine nice guys, incl Dave Hawkins

oh i agree. but is it more widespread than the one you've mentioned? i mean are CLF all over the world and WC hooking up? hmmm i wonder.


Not sure exactly 'why' you would want to discuss differences though, as it will always end up in a fight of some sort! I love meeting martial artists and I personally have no hang-ups about other stylists or families, no matter how shaded our histories seem to be! So if you're ever in London look me up.

Sometimes fighting earns respect from others. WC and CLF going back to Leung Jan and my founder (Jeung Hung Sing's) day. Who knows, one day maybe the whole gung fu community can show love and support each other?

[Hendrik]

Sometimes fighting earns respect from others. WC and CLF going back to Leung Jan and my founder (Jeung Hung Sing's) day. Who knows, one day maybe the whole gung fu community can show love and support each other?


Cho family keep that friendly connection of CLF and WCK since Leung Jan's time.

[Hendrik]

For those worried about momentum I'd say don't chase the arms, use footwork to close the range and attack the jic seen (in the same way as you fight an opponent with a baseball bat) and you stop the momentum dead.


You have good points,

Here are mine.

1, you are right if you have as much as 20 channels turn on in your body similar to the good CLF fighter. otherwise, their Body cover much wider range then you footwork.

2, it is like those who think they can step in to jam and dissarm the people with samurai sword when they draw the sword, in real life most end up get cut because sword is drawn with a step back ward not a step forward. So you rush right into the sword. it is a kiss of death. Those who use Cup, Pow,.... swing as the CLF knows their game very well, otherwise, the Qing has already get them and they will not exist until today.

3,
since I am not a CLF guy but a WCner, so ok for me to tell you these, Oftern I like use Pow Cup...., my strike always deliver at a step back/side away not a step forward, so my fellow WCner partner always miss a step where they are the one who step into my cup because they think they can get my center line, and the cup swing down to totally destroy their chain punch structure /momentum disregard of how fast they are. because they always missed half a step and due to their short chain punch distance compare with my cup Chui. I get them and their punch doesnt reach me. and if they retread, use Chad Chui and forward step to hit them because they cant get out the range fast enough.


just for fun, so dont take me serious.

Frank, what do you think? hahaha

[goju]

raise my forearm to protect my head from the hay makers then counter off if

like this

http://www.fightreport.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/quinton-jackson_wanderlie-silva.gif

[Hardwork108]

The guy "looks off balance" cant really say as this is just a demo but as a VT man i apperciate the round actions because thats what im suited best to deal with.
Be careful, some of those CLF round strikes would collapse or destroy a lot of WC structures.

[Sihing73]

Just to interject something here;

In my opinion one of the strengths of WC is that it trains one to be flexible and adaptable. One may start a certain way, but is able to change based on what the opponent does or gives you. This is what I feel is the value of Chi Sau training, learning the ability to change as needed depending on what one encounters.

Of course, if one simply gos through the basics exercises without learning to open the mind to new things one will be a robot and simply mimic what others do. The art will not be a part of you and you will be quite predictable.

I believe that every art, at the higher levels, exhibit this adapatability. This is one reason why high level people seem to all look similar in application whether they be karate or Tai Chi.

CLF is an excellent system no doubt, as is WC, imo. However, the skill of the practicianer and their understanding is what sets them apart from those who just mimic the movements.

My approach to fighting is to try and keep my mind and options open and allow my opponent to tell me how best to beat them and I would hope to be able to vary my techniques depending on what they gave me to work with. Of course, this is much easier said than done. I also believe that one will get hit in a fight so one must be prepared both mentally and physically to accept some punishment.

So in fighting someone like this I would expect to be hit a few times but would try to prepare myself mentally for that and would try to instill the mindset of going forward no matter what until I could get in close and do my own damage.

I agree with the idea of attacking thee weapon, hurting the opponents arms or legs, but I am not so sure that attacking the limbs and then going to the center would be "pure" WC as most WC would seem to evade or avoid the attack and then attack the body/centerline.

Consider this as food for thought:

There are only three ways to deal with any attack:

Avoid the attack
Evade the attack
Intercept the attack

Does anyone havr another way to deal with an attack? If so I would be interested in discussing.

[Hendrik]

I agree with the idea of attacking thee weapon, hurting the opponents arms or legs, but I am not so sure that attacking the limbs and then going to the center would be "pure" WC as most WC would seem to evade or avoid the attack and then attack the body/centerline. --------

IMO,

1, Damage the weapon and then attack to the center line, and damage the weapon in the same time attack to the center line is perfectly WCK.

Attacking to center line as general public way is a religion which is not practical when dealing with weapon and the two head snake type of art such as CLF.

Most evade are just loosing more ground and often run into set up.
One needs to deal with the attack on spot.

for. The two head snake art, the seeing center is an illusion, only if one head is damage the center force to be surfaced..

2, no matter what one does it is all about dealing with momentum in high speed. Clf's snow balling and round momentum cannot be dissolved by general forward pressure training of WCK. No matter how good one can play the lok sau type of chi sau game, that platform doesn't train to absorb the type of circular momentum.

Similar to CLF type of momentum is kyokushin's chain low round kicks.



Just some thoughts among infinity thoughts

[hskwarrior]

CLF is an excellent system no doubt, as is WC, imo. However, the skill of the practicianer and their understanding is what sets them apart from those who just mimic the movements.

THAT is the truth!

[Hendrik]

There are only three ways to deal with any attack:
Avoid the attack
Evade the attack
Intercept the attack. ----------


There are more ways:
dissolve, make use of, or destroy the attack. But needs advance training.


To dissolve needs huajin capability. Similar to water dam to dilute it
To make use of needs Sen hua capability. Similar transfer the momentum to do desire things
To destroy needs short distance fajin capability similar to patriot missile

[Sihing73]

There are only three ways to deal with any attack:
Avoid the attack
Evade the attack
Intercept the attack. ----------


There are more ways:
dissolve, make use of, or destroy the attack. But needs advance training.


To dissolve needs huajin capability. Similar to water dam to dilute it
To make use of needs Sen hua capability. Similar transfer the momentum to do desire things
To destroy needs short distance fajin capability similar to patriot missile

Hendrick,

We can discuss on another thread rather than hijack this one. However I stand by what I said, each of the ways you mention is simply a variation of one of the three I mentioned. If you believe that not to be the case then please explain, in detail, what makes them different.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1084067]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un8sBBdTWt8&feature=related[/QUOTE-------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surprised that you ask. Another- what if...problem.He is just demonstrating CLF striking against a compliant student!!
Of course CLF is a good style. And the demonstrator is good.

But a good wing chun person plays his own game- don't just stand there -fast forward-attack-
straight.
A bad wing chun person would/could lose.

joy chaudhuri

[Liddel]

Be careful, some of those CLF round strikes would collapse or destroy a lot of WC structures.

I dont doubt thats a possibility.

I cant comment on your individual training as i don't know you, but through sparring i have a good idea of what can and can't collapse my Guard.

[Hardwork108]

I dont doubt thats a possibility.

I cant comment on your individual training as i don't know you, but through sparring i have a good idea of what can and can't collapse my Guard.

Point taken. I hope that you have sparred against good CLF guys, so as to get an idea as to how your structure would hold out against their powerful attacks.

[hskwarrior]

CLF and WC both has its good and bad points. Both can be: aggressive, destructive,vicious, defensive and offensive. Both know how to work the angles.
Has WC beaten CLF in the past? of course. Has CLF beaten WC in the past? of course. its not the style, its about the person using the style.


Originally posted by: goju
raise my forearm to protect my head from the hay makers then counter off if like this http://www.fightreport.net/wp-conten...rlie-silva.gif

LOL, that's not how CLF uses its big swinging strike called the sow choy. One thing CLF LOVES is when our opponent raises his arm to block the Sow Choy. For us, we unlike what you see in the UFC or MMA, we don't just throw ONE over hand strike. If we do that, we know what you are going to do and already have a plan for that.

Why does CLF love it when you raise your arm to block that strike? its a couple of reasons. one....once we see you raise your arm our objective can instantly change from intending to wipe your face off with the sow choy. Two, we tend to follow through with our strikes. so if you raised your arm we would then change our objective to strike your arm instead. It will pull you off balance as it completes its path. By this time, CLF has already delivered a couple of strikes with our other hand or even feet. so, what am i saying? just be careful bro.

[Hendrik]

CLF and WC both has its good and bad points. Both can be: aggressive, destructive,vicious, defensive and offensive. Both know how to work the angles.
Has WC beaten CLF in the past? of course. Has CLF beaten WC in the past? of course. its not the style, its about the person using the style.



LOL, that's not how CLF uses its big swinging strike called the sow choy. One thing CLF LOVES is when our opponent raises his arm to block the Sow Choy. For us, we unlike what you see in the UFC or MMA, we don't just throw ONE over hand strike. If we do that, we know what you are going to do and already have a plan for that.

Why does CLF love it when you raise your arm to block that strike? its a couple of reasons. one....once we see you raise your arm our objective can instantly change from intending to wipe your face off with the sow choy. Two, we tend to follow through with our strikes. so if you raised your arm we would then change our objective to strike your arm instead. It will pull you off balance as it completes its path. By this time, CLF has already delivered a couple of strikes with our other hand or even feet. so, what am i saying? just be careful bro.




Hahaha Frank, the above is a good one.


As I mention in other thread. if the Door is not opened. blocking and or enter to the center just doesnt make much contribution and could do the worse similar to the following clip by Gary, " you do Tan Da.... luckily he is my student..."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u63OJRXyq68&feature=related


IMHO, it is naive to think, oh I just tan da and rapid fire to the center line.

CLF is like a snake with two heads and the center of the snake is illusive. Thinking blocking the snake head and directly go to the center is just impractical and suicide.


So, if the way how one deal with the attack doesnt open up the door that action is just a defensive and not that useful action. IMHO. One simply needs to have atleast 2, 3 steps line up instead of just thinking those Lap Da, Tan Da, and chain punch can do the job.

Another thing is who says WCK goes direct to the center line all the time? Nope, Gary doesnt do that when he open the door with let his opponent past. So, it is suicide to rush into center line taking that as dogma.

Chassing center line blindly is also means Chasing arm.


Just some thoughts.

[hskwarrior]

Open and closed doors are one of the focuses i've learned from my sifu. He always taught me that whenever you strike the head you leave a few doors open. He'd then test me on how i would close the door when it needed to be closed. i learned the hard way haha. but, now i teach my students that whenever they strike to be aware of all the open doors. one of the ways my sifu helped us to develop this is a DRILL called "Flowing". here is a clip of my beginner students learning to flow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynUs_95mdvQ

These guys have only been training with me for about 7 months now.

[Hendrik]

Open and closed doors are one of the focuses i've learned from my sifu. He always taught me that whenever you strike the head you leave a few doors open. He'd then test me on how i would close the door when it needed to be closed. i learned the hard way haha. but, now i teach my students that whenever they strike to be aware of all the open doors. one of the ways my sifu helped us to develop this is a DRILL called "Flowing". here is a clip of my beginner students learning to flow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynUs_95mdvQ


These guys have only been training with me for about 7 months now.


Frank,

Thanks for sharing. Now we speak real deal.



For Cho Family WCK, the flow/open /close door is taugh in the following two men set called Chi Sau Loong. small sample start around 0.4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqHE5A4LC80

The set is almost extinct today .... So, imho, those open/close door/ flow stuffs exist long time ago instead of just the Tan da, lap da...... but it extinc because it is more difficult to grasp i think.


For WCner, in general,
The problem we face today is we strike and we dont know if we strike at open door. and we dont know our open door and close door. we think if we do that chain punch to the center line and that tan sau everything is solve. but then that is not the case. so in the real life we cant applied the art because we just dont know but go brute force.


again, just some thoughts.

[hskwarrior]

Here are some more footage of choy lay fat fight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJVBn...feature=fvwrel


I made that video hahahaha. :D but there are some CLF guys in chuck lidells camp.


so in the real life we cant applied the art because we just dont know but go brute force.

Going brute force without a plan is tunnel vision. you lose focus for everything around you except what's right in front of you. in most cases you can't see clearly or think when you go brute force blindly.

brute force is good for finishing moves. not the fight.

[Vajramusti]

For WCner, in general,
The problem we face today is we strike and we dont know if we strike at open door. and we dont know our open door and close door. we think if we do that chain punch to the center line and that tan sau everything is solve. but then that is not the case. so in the real life we cant applied the art because we just dont know but go brute force.


again, just some thoughts.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The above critique is quite general. There are Ip Man lineage folks who know about open and closed doors,
angles and lines and open and close and go in without brute force... and dealing with two headed snakes.There are competent and incompetent folks in most TCMAS.

joy chaudhuri

[Eric_H]

Yo Hendrik!

Didn't you just leave/retire/have your last post ever on this forum a few weeks ago? ;)

[Hendrik]

Yo Hendrik!

Didn't you just leave/retire/have your last post ever on this forum a few weeks ago? ;)


my mind is ever changing and upgrading and improving. It never stop at the past be it yesterday. and I think every one is the same... always improving.

one never fight the same fighter twice for the figther yesterday is not the same fighter today. isnt that true?

[overall]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un8sBBdTWt8&feature=related

Someone answered "like everybody else". It is truth as it is not. My answer is I don`t know. Every new position or situation ask for different reaction. WC fighters, do not forget that WC is not static. Actually, main reason why most "WC fighters" do not have success in fights is lack of moving. In my opinion moving is essential for most arts, but specially for WC to be effective.

[shawchemical]

True,

or bring back the ancient WCK channels opening method.

The present rigid elbow in center line, clamping and forward pressing just cant do it naturally. it closes the channels.

Wrong, the channels don't exist, thus they can neither be opened or closed.

[k gledhill]

elbows are in center for a reason, tan sao never leaves the centerline ..you sound confused Hendrik.

[k gledhill]

Someone answered "like everybody else". It is truth as it is not. My answer is I don`t know. Every new position or situation ask for different reaction. WC fighters, do not forget that WC is not static. Actually, main reason why most "WC fighters" do not have success in fights is lack of moving. In my opinion moving is essential for most arts, but specially for WC to be effective.


bingo , movement ! :D