Entering Strategy

[YouKnowWho]

The "entering strategy" is a very import part of the TCMA training. In order to be able to enter safely, you have to pass your opponent's kicking range, punching range, and then get into the clinching range. In the following clip, the same entering strategy was applied twice in a roll within 14 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46dNDMgedIk

You can tell that this guy had a plan when he entered. He used his kicks to close the distance (he might not care whether his kicks could hurt his opponent or not), used his punches to cause a clinching (he might not care whether his punches could hurt his opponent or not), and then used his throw to take his opponent down. After that the stand up game is over and whoever has better ground game will win.

What do you think about this combat strategy?

[mooyingmantis]

I don't know that I saw a "plan" in there as much as good responses to the opponent's openings. And his opponent seemed kinda lost in how to respond.

What you outlined is an excellent strategy.

[-N-]

Work your way in and take him down. Sure.

Better than let him kick you, let him punch you, let him grab you, then you take him down.

:)

[-N-]

Or you could be lazy and trick him into closing in on you so you can take him down.

[Frost]

It’s a great strategy if you know how to grapple and ground fight, it sucks as a strategy if you don’t :)

Sometimes it can be hard to clinch an opponent moving backwards away from your strikes, especially if he circles rather than going straight back, in this case allowing him to come to you and using the level change is a better strategy

And it is always better to be the one dictating the pace and imposing your game rather than playing catch up, playing catch up and responding to what your opponent does means you are losing slowly

As far as strategies go, I have found that most people trained or untrained can punch (badly but they do have a vague idea of boxing) some know how to kick (again quite often badly but even untrained people can hoof) less know what to do standing grappling: grabbing lapels, head locks, punching and head butting is all they know……and almost no one knows what to do on the ground……so I plan my strategies around that and take my opponent to where he will be weak

Or as someone much much better than me once put it: the ground is like the sea, I am like a shark and my opponents don’t even know how to swim

[PlumDragon]

The entrance worked...but a "plan" isnt really a good idea. What then do you do, if your opponent knows how to properly react to your "plan"? What if your oppoennt has a "plan" that you cannot react properly to? And how many times can you/he execute your "plans" before you/him have rendered your "plan" useless?

Conceptual strategy is ok but when asked, "what is your plan for x, y, or z?" the best implementation would be to not have a plan and simply act accordingly for the situation, given its situational nuances...I believe the Japanese call it zero mind.

[bawang]

Or as someone much much better than me once put it: the ground is like the sea, I am like a shark and my opponents don’t even know how to swim

thats deep

[Violent Designs]

thats deep

would not giant squid make more sense?

i mean you're grappling them and arms and legs like tentacles.

[bawang]

octopus style kung fu

[sanjuro_ronin]

I enter up the middle on hooks on via the outside blindside on straights.
That is, when I do the opposite.
Or when I do something totally different.
:D
As for countering a person's entry, I like when people get close, I welcome them with open hearts and then I show them the errors of their ways and allow them to meditate on the lesson.
Having been inspired by Chuck Lidell, I have worked on my "striking while evading" skills and they are getting their.

[MightyB]

The entrance worked...but a "plan" isnt really a good idea. What then do you do, if your opponent knows how to properly react to your "plan"? What if your oppoennt has a "plan" that you cannot react properly to? And how many times can you/he execute your "plans" before you/him have rendered your "plan" useless?

Conceptual strategy is ok but when asked, "what is your plan for x, y, or z?" the best implementation would be to not have a plan and simply act accordingly for the situation, given its situational nuances...I believe the Japanese call it zero mind.

Plans work. For example. We have a new guy / wrestler just getting into BJJ in our club. He's been coming for 2 months. He wants to compete so we devised a plan that works for him. It goes like this: Trust his three best wrestling takedowns that he knows and has been doing all season (he's a HS wrestler), quickly go to side control, test the Americana in side control, if it's not there, transition to mount, work Americana. He's to threaten the neck with the ultimate goal of the Americana.

That leaves him only three things to remember and concentrate on: takedown (any way he prefers out of his 3 best options), side control, Americana, threaten the neck.

[Frost]

sanjuro_ronin 03-18-2011 01:13 PM

I enter up the middle on hooks on via the outside blindside on straights.
That is, when I do the opposite.
Or when I do something totally different.
:D
As for countering a person's entry, I like when people get close, I welcome them with open hearts and then I show them the errors of their ways and allow them to meditate on the lesson.
Having been inspired by Chuck Lidell, I have worked on my "striking while evading" skills and they are getting their.

Ever tried coming under the straights rather than on their outside………from what I remember you are shorter than the average bear so thought you might like this way of moving…….only joking but compact explosive guys coming under my strikes are a nightmare for me…………. Luckily I am at home in the wide open sea that is the ground


So what are you using striking wise……….my coach when he works the outside game has us use power straight shots of both hands in a squarer stance, lateral movement and when you feel like it long upper cuts if they change level….i sometimes play around with my CLF strikes at this range but I grow weary of them getting past the shots, I find its much harder to cover and come in on power straight shots than hooks and over hands


On a serious note I know you are a good striker in close, but do you actually like bringing them in, I find that even lighting them up in close they can sometimes get a hand on you and bring you down with them……….staying on the outside seems a safer bet if you don’t want to enter into their world

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Entering strategy of course will be different with each opponent, but if clinching is your goal, use the strikes to get in. While teaching last night we worked clinch and my newer guys were throwing what I call "wasted strikes". They were too far away to punch, sometimes even too far away too kick, but throwing them anyway. As I explained, when throwing a technique you must throw with distance, speed, power, and intention. Distance being first because otherwise you are wasting energy throwing a strike that is too far away too hit.

Once in the clinch range there are several options, I generally like an over/under arm hook or plum, depending on what the opponent gives me, or sometimes overhook with hand-hip seperation. One important aspect I feel is working angles rather than straight in and straight out. I spend a lot of time with footwork, circling, and angles with my guys, along with clockstepping drills, to improve this as an entering strategy.

[PlumDragon]

Plans work. For example. We have a new guy / wrestler just getting into BJJ in our club. He's been coming for 2 months. He wants to compete so we devised a plan that works for him. It goes like this: Trust his three best wrestling takedowns that he knows and has been doing all season (he's a HS wrestler), quickly go to side control, test the Americana in side control, if it's not there, transition to mount, work Americana. He's to threaten the neck with the ultimate goal of the Americana.Plans work only by circumstance and are designed to work ONLY when you make the assumption that you can effectively control your opponent and exert your plan successfully. Obviously your student will likely execute one of his 3 most effective takedowns. This isnt a plan, its just what he currenntly can perform best; whats most natural, what is closest to zero mind for him.

As far as the side mount, americana, etc, did you also plan for the scenario where your opponent uses one of his best 3 takedowns and puts your student directly into side mount and goes for a submission or mount? What if your opponent has been working on dealing with sidemount for a long time as his "plan"? Where is your plan now? Its all down the toilet...

Fact is, you dont know what your opponent will do or how well he will do it. The best plan is to assume your enemy is skilled at kicking your ass and train to react properly to all scenarios.

The unfortunate truth here is that if your student loses, it proves nothing about what Im saying, and if he wins it proves nothing about what youre saying. Simply, its just situation. Your plan may work sometimes, and it may lose you the match (or get you killed in a real-life situation). When someone asks me what I would do, what my plan is...I usually tell them, I dont know. Ill just react.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ever tried coming under the straights rather than on their outside………from what I remember you are shorter than the average bear so thought you might like this way of moving…….only joking but compact explosive guys coming under my strikes are a nightmare for me…………. Luckily I am at home in the wide open sea that is the ground


So what are you using striking wise……….my coach when he works the outside game has us use power straight shots of both hands in a squarer stance, lateral movement and when you feel like it long upper cuts if they change level….i sometimes play around with my CLF strikes at this range but I grow weary of them getting past the shots, I find its much harder to cover and come in on power straight shots than hooks and over hands


On a serious note I know you are a good striker in close, but do you actually like bringing them in, I find that even lighting them up in close they can sometimes get a hand on you and bring you down with them……….staying on the outside seems a safer bet if you don’t want to enter into their world

I am only 5'-6", and I weight in the 170's, I have short arms, which lends me to fight like Tyson or the like.
I Like the body shots and the low kicks and can kick from a "in your face" distance and my elbow and knees are pretty good to.
That said I hit pretty good in the clinch and have good "to the outside or behind" footwork.
But all that is set up with the fact that I do NOT feel intimidated in that range, I can grapple and clinch or take down or be taken down and not feel "worried' about it, so that allows me to be comfortable with my best features- inclose strikes.
The issue of being taken down when on the inside is a serious one and must be addressed, and my weakness if opponents of similar or shorter statute, not the bigger ones.
Not too long ago a friend of mine ( MT) and I were sparring and his clinch is quite good and he posed a few problems that I have to deal with, one of the ways was by taking him down and the other was introducing him to the PE fist :D.

But every opponent will present you with a unique puzzle, you just have to play to YOUR strengths and hope that they over come his.

[David Jamieson]

Know your venue.
Know your strength.
Know your opponents weakness.
Box a wrestler.
Wrestle a boxer.
Kick when you have an opportunity.

[bawang]

thats deep

[MightyB]

Plans work only by circumstance and are designed to work ONLY when you make the assumption that you can effectively control your opponent and exert your plan successfully. Obviously your student will likely execute one of his 3 most effective takedowns. This isnt a plan, its just what he currenntly can perform best; whats most natural, what is closest to zero mind for him.

As far as the side mount, americana, etc, did you also plan for the scenario where your opponent uses one of his best 3 takedowns and puts your student directly into side mount and goes for a submission or mount? What if your opponent has been working on dealing with sidemount for a long time as his "plan"? Where is your plan now? Its all down the toilet...

Fact is, you dont know what your opponent will do or how well he will do it. The best plan is to assume your enemy is skilled at kicking your ass and train to react properly to all scenarios.

The unfortunate truth here is that if your student loses, it proves nothing about what Im saying, and if he wins it proves nothing about what youre saying. Simply, its just situation. Your plan may work sometimes, and it may lose you the match (or get you killed in a real-life situation). When someone asks me what I would do, what my plan is...I usually tell them, I dont know. Ill just react.

Don't over-think it. In this student's case, he is an experienced grappler, he's still learning the same basics as everyone else (positions, escapes, sweeps, submissions), and he's only going to compete against other white belts. The difference is that he has a definite mission and game plan where as 90% of the amateur competition guys don't. That gives him a distinct advantage.

You can't be good at all scenarios, know your game, know it well, make your opponent react to you by dictating the terms and conditions of the fight. Standard Sun Tzu.

[YouKnowWho]

The entrance worked...but a "plan" isnt really a good idea. What then do you do, if your opponent knows how to properly react to your "plan"? What if your oppoennt has a "plan" that you cannot react properly to? And how many times can you/he execute your "plans" before you/him have rendered your "plan" useless?

Conceptual strategy is ok but when asked, "what is your plan for x, y, or z?" the best implementation would be to not have a plan and simply act accordingly for the situation, given its situational nuances...I believe the Japanese call it zero mind.

First, if you act accordingly for the situation, you will allow your opponent to control the fight and not you. Your opponent may lead you into an area that you may not feel comfortable. The moment that your opponent puts you in defense, you will lose soon or later.

Will your plan always wok? Of course not. In a real fight (not sport), you only need to make your plan to work once and not everytime. What if your opponent also has a plan? That's a fair question. IMO, when that happen, the best solution is if your opponent's plan doesn't match to your plan, interrupt his plan, and re-execute your plan.

The general mistake that most people made in combat is when their opponent kick, they kick back. When their opponent punch, they punch back. They just react in such a way that "I can also do what you can do." To me, they don't have a plan.

I like to keep my plan simple and I'll use it over and over and never change it. The reason is simple. The more that I have tried with my plan, I can accumulate my experience. When my experience is more than my opponent's experience, I'll feel more comfortable than my opponent, and that will be my advantage.

[YouKnowWho]

when I play Chinese chess, my 1st move was always the same - 当头炮(Dang Tou Pao). Chinese chess players will know what I'm talking about here. I always move my CN behind my center FS. I then move my center FS forward to meet my opponent's center FS. After my FS takes my opponent's FS, I have a check made. During my process, my opponent may move any of his chess between my CN and his king. Whatever that he will do, that chess will be controlled by my CN through the rest of the game.

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/4544/chinesechess.jpg

My teacher's brother told me that he used the same "entering strategy" all his life and he had never changed it. He had never lose a single fight in his life time (even my teacher had a tie in his last Shanghai tournament). The reason is simple, if you have tried your methed 1000 times in your life, you will have more experience in that approach than your opponent. That will be your advantage. His entering strategy was to

- move in,
- build a leg bridge,
- stick his body on his opponent's body,
- wait for his opponent's reaction, and
- responsed to it.

Becaue I knew he was old, I was also waiting and didn't not response his move with combat speed. This didn't make his counter approach entering strategy looked good.

Just because he was my teacher's training partner, he used exactly the opposite approach. My teacher liked to attack like a tiger. He liked to wait for his opponent to make a certain commitment. Here was my teacher's brother "one size fit all entering strategy". He may look old and slow in this clip, but he was as strong as a tiger when I met him the 1st time back in 1980. This clip was taken in 1991 and he was over 80 years old. You may notice that he was a left hand person. He told me that he was a right hand person first. because he was my teacher's daily training partner, since my teacher was a right hand person, my teacher converted him into a left hand person (the dominate always converts the one who is dominated).

That clip is very rare. How many clips that we can see today that represent an old CMA master's entering strategy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZpCLDndDl8

Now I look back at this old clip again, I just realized that I was a terrible demo partner. I did not

- move toward my opponent and give him a chance to borrow my force.
- throw myself in the air to make the demo look fancy.
- jump up and down like a rag doll to show his powerful Qi.

[SPJ]

exiting strategy is as much important

how to get out of disadvantage or trouble position--

:D

[SPJ]

talking about chinese chess

dang tou pao or using the cannon as the first front/head

I prefer giving up soldiers to protect the leader

she zhu or ju bao shuai.

giving up foot soldier or horse to protect the commander.

we have to move in and give up some advantage or defense

so that we are close enough to do our damange to the opponent.

we give up something somewhere in order to gain something somewhere else.

this is the tactics and strategy for entering and exiting in ba ji.

---


:cool:

[YouKnowWho]

Box a wrestler.
Wrestle a boxer.


- Kick a boxer (leg is longer than the arm).

- Take down a kicker (grab his kicking leg and hook/sweep his standing leg).

[YouKnowWho]

Sometimes it can be hard to clinch an opponent moving backwards away from your strikes, especially if he circles rather than going straight back, in this case allowing him to come to you and using the level change is a better strategy.
Agree with you 100% there.

When your opponent keeps moving back (or around), it will be hard to get into the clinching range. When that happen, I like to drop guard to invite my opponent to punch me. When he puches at me, I can wrap his arms and move in.

[YouKnowWho]

What then do you do, if your opponent knows how to properly react to your "plan"?
It doesn't matter if your opponent knows your plan. If you are familiar with your "entering strategy", then you should be able to response to all your opponent's responses because you only give him a finite number of choices.

For example, if your 1st move is to kick at your opponent's leading leg knee joint (not sure this is a legal move in sport or not), no matter what he may react, you have put him in defense. That will give you advantage at that moment.

[PlumDragon]

Don't over-think it.Theres too much overthinking in planning. I dont think at all. When my opponent attacks me, I react and counter; if my timing is better than his (or dare I say hers! ;) ) then I can then take control; if his is better, he will maintain control and I will continue to react as well as I can--no thought whatsoever, unless it is a new stimulus, and then I start to think....and thats bad.

When youre in the ring, or on the street, or whatever. There should be no thought. Just perform.



For example, if your 1st move is to kick at your opponent's leading leg knee joint (not sure this is a legal move in sport or not), no matter what he may react, you have put him in defense. That will give you advantage at that moment.OK, your mind knows the correct answer, but can your body produce the stimulus at the level that your mind can conceive it? How about if your opponent is more skilled than you in this facet?

[YouKnowWho]

OK, your mind knows the correct answer, but can your body produce the stimulus at the level that your mind can conceive it? How about if your opponent is more skilled than you in this facet?
The answer is simple:

- If your mind knows the correct answer but your body can't do it, you (general YOU) are not good enough.
- If your opponent is more skillful than you, you (general YOU) will lose.

In either case, more training will be needed.

[David Jamieson]

Fighting is low and dirty.
Be low and dirty when fighting.

If you are in competition venue, fight by the rules and use the strategy most fitting.
Elsewhere, try to bring your gun to that knife fight....

[MightyB]

The answer is simple:

- If your mind knows the correct answer but your body can't do it, you (general YOU) are not good enough.
- If your opponent is more skillful than you, you (general YOU) will lose.

In either case, more training will be needed.

Lol - Story of my life.

Actually- If your mind knows the answer but your body can't do it.... TEACH! :D

[MightyB]

Theres too much overthinking in planning. I dont think at all. When my opponent attacks me, I react and counter; if my timing is better than his (or dare I say hers! ;) ) then I can then take control; if his is better, he will maintain control and I will continue to react as well as I can--no thought whatsoever, unless it is a new stimulus, and then I start to think....and thats bad.

When youre in the ring, or on the street, or whatever. There should be no thought. Just perform.


See I think completely opposite of you- My philosophy is to have and use a game plan because it allows me to be working 1 to 2 moves ahead of my opponent because I'm narrowing my focus and going for a couple of specific moves.

In Judo, I react to all stimulus and take something if it's there, but I know my best throws are Sumi Gaeshi if the person stands low and is overly defensive, Left handed Harai Goshi initiated from a right natural grip, and Left handed Tai Otoshi as a follow up to a Left handed Uchi Mata (also starting from a right natural grip). I've actually been working and having some success in practice with the right handed rolling knee bar from Sambo, I just stop with the roll because you can't knee bar in Judo.

On the ground (Judo and BJJ)- I have a killer guard that's really tough to pass and I can get into fairly easy... but, I have a hard time trying to submit anyone who's in my guard!!! so I work on sweeps. I'm ok when I hit a dominant position and have a variety of attacks... but my favorite is to fake a cross choke from the mount (choke if it's there) to get a person to post their arm and then get a fast cross arm bar.

So- my mind is fairly clear on what I have to do and because of that I'm usually the one initiating the attacks and not the person responding or hesitating because I don't have to think about what I have to do next. I'm working a rehearsed plan and strategy.

[YouKnowWho]

In Judo, ...

One of my senior SC brothers always wrote his game plans inside of his SC jacket. He would try plan#1, then plan#2, ... I asked him why did he just remember in his head. He said in tournament environment, it's just too hard to remember everything. His approach was trying not to expose his favor moves too often. He would start with his unfavor moves first. If he won, he didn't need to use his favor moves. If he couldn't make his unfavor moves work, he then use one of his favor moves. But he make sure that he wouldn't use the same favor move back to back. This way his opponent will know very little about him. That will make his tournament career easier if they have to meet again the year after.

[PlumDragon]

See I think completely opposite of you- My philosophy is to have and use a game plan because it allows me to be working 1 to 2 moves ahead of my opponent because I'm narrowing my focus and going for a couple of specific moves.If youre faster than your opponent then its easy to overwhelm him and continue to move further and further ahead of him in movements. Its easy, you dont even need a plan, just go! If, on the other hand, he is faster than YOU and has better timing, you will try to execute your plan but it will be staunched out and your opponent will take control, and you will be the one that is 1 or 2 moves behind.

A plan is conscious thought and it slows you down. Go for certain moves when the opportunity is right, not just because thats your plan. Its all situational.

Ultimately, everyone can have a plan or not...And obviously most of you do. But, IMO, what will allow you to overcome has nothing to do with the plan--it has to do with ones ability to exert control over their opponent real-time, and comes down to nothing but skill and timing. Can a beginner martial artist beat a champion fighter just because he has a really fantastically great plan? Certainly I think not!

[YouKnowWho]

If youre faster than your opponent then its easy to overwhelm him and continue to move further and further ahead of him in movements. Its easy, you dont even need a plan, just go!

You can throw

- 3 punches to the head, or
- 1 punch to the head, 1 kick to the groin, and 1 punch to the head again.

The difference here is the 1st method may cause your opponent to "close". The 2nd approach will force your opponent to "open". If you are a grappler, you may prefer the 1st approach. If you are a striker, you may prefer the 2nd approach.

Your plan will help you to lead into what you want and not what you don't want.