Build bridge, cross bridge, destroy bridge

[YouKnowWho]

The TCMA "build bridge" concept is a 2 edges sword. It can help you to listen to your opponent's intention, but it can also help your opponent to do the same to you. In order to avoid that, right after you have detected your opponent's intention through your bridge (arm or leg contact), you have to cross that bridge and destroy that bridge ASAP.

The most common example will be the Mantis 鉤搂採手(Gou Lou Cai Shou) that you use a right back fist to make arms contact (build bridge - set up), you then use your right hand to grab your opponent's wrist, and use your left hand to pull your opponent's elbow (cross bridge - enter). You then relase your right wrist grab and punch at your opponent's face (destroy bridge - finish).

What's your favor "build bridge - set up", "cross bridge - enter", and "destroy bridge - finish" strategies if you don't mind to share here?

[bawang]

cantonese bridging is just forearm blocking.

northern martial arts have no concept of bridging.

[YouKnowWho]

cantonese bridging is just forearm blocking.

northern martial arts have no concept of bridging.
Without the ability of "build bridge", a boxer will still be a boxer, and a Judoka will still be a Judoka. You can exchange punches with a boxer all day long, if you want to apply any of your throwing skill, you have to know how to build a bridge. The "bridge building" is the "only" way that the throwing arts can be integrated into the striking arts.

To pull your opponent's head into your punch (head on colussion) is better than to punch your opponent's head when he moves back. The "build bridge" is also important in the "striking arts" as in the "throwing arts".

How to create your pulling?

[mooyingmantis]

John,
Good topic!

One of my favorite bridging techniques:
1. Right lead punch at three-quarter speed.
2. Attach right hand to opponent's block and strike with a left cross.
3. Blast opponent's right lead leg with a left Seven Star sweep.
4. Grab opponent's hair with the left hand and coiling elbow strike to the face with the right elbow.

[Scott R. Brown]

cantonese bridging is just forearm blocking.

northern martial arts have no concept of bridging.

Tell us what Great Asian Masters teach whitey, so we know what we think we know, but don't really know until we know what we think we know is not what we know but what we really don't know until we know it! You know?

[Violent Designs]

Tell us what Great Asian Masters teach whitey, so we know what we think we know, but don't really know until we know what we think we know is not what we know but what we really don't know until we know it! You know?

Voldemort is Chinese.

[Syn7]

whos that?

[bawang]

How to create your pulling?
by clinching

[Violent Designs]

whos that?

HeWhoMustNotBeNamed

[David Jamieson]

bridge is a word.

the concept is expressed in myriad ways.

when contact is made during conflict, that's the bridge.

[wenshu]

Sanctuary (http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~martinh/poems/parker.html)
My land is bare of chattering folk;
The clouds are low along the ridges,
And sweet's the air with curly smoke
From all my burning bridges.

[-N-]

Sanctuary (http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~martinh/poems/parker.html)
My land is bare of chattering folk;
The clouds are low along the ridges,
And sweet's the air with curly smoke
From all my burning bridges.

You'll still need to burn your internet connection though.

[SPJ]

in hong fist, there are many bridges/forearm moves---

closing in with steps and position to carry out whatever you want to do, strike, throw, trip to fall---

you "bridge" or close in with steps--

the boots are made for walking

if we do not watch the position and steps, the opponent will walk all over us with boots or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRkovnss7sg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYr9EFJkh-o

:)

[Yum Cha]

Without the ability of "build bridge", a boxer will still be a boxer, and a Judoka will still be a Judoka. You can exchange punches with a boxer all day long, if you want to apply any of your throwing skill, you have to know how to build a bridge. The "bridge building" is the "only" way that the throwing arts can be integrated into the striking arts.

To pull your opponent's head into your punch (head on colussion) is better than to punch your opponent's head when he moves back. The "build bridge" is also important in the "striking arts" as in the "throwing arts".

How to create your pulling?

One good way to generate pulling force is to drop your weight.

[bawang]

ykw sometimes u say things make my balls shrink insdie my body. exactly where in a takedown u can find briding?

lots of people talking about bridging because its easy for making seminars and dvds. the wing chun forums is still trying to find out how to defend against a jab.

[David Jamieson]

ykw sometimes u say things make my balls shrink insdie my body. exactly where in a takedown u can find briding?

lots of people talking about bridging because its easy for making seminars and dvds. the wing chun forums is still trying to find out how to defend against a jab.

watch this for correct chain punching and keep an eye out for the big four that everyone should know intimately: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B9hiYodAd8

the jab- straight punch same side
the cross - straight punch opposite side
the hook- butter churn
the uppercut - up and in

variations are switch ups, overhands, step arounds, step asides, round and out etc etc.

:)

[bawang]

real brdige

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u3Kj9npy74

[Syn7]

real brdige

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u3Kj9npy74

whats the deal there??? they went to sun yat-sen to check his bone density or something???to see the medical evidence of his "5 ancestors" forearm and hand conditioning??? sorry, my chinese is a wee bit rusty...

[YouKnowWho]

exactly where in a takedown u can find briding?

You use bridge to create a chance for your throw.

Most of the throws require a major hand (such as Judo sleeve hold) and a minor hand (such as Judo upper collar hold). In order to obtain the major hand, you will need to control your opponent's leading arm (sleeve hold in no jacket situation). Try to control your opponent's leading arm when he keeps punching at your head is not a easy task. To build a bridge can hide your intention and help you to achieve that. Your mind is not in that "bridge" but to control your opponent's leading arm.

[sanjuro_ronin]

real brdige

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u3Kj9npy74

Sweet video...deserving of its on thread...
:p

[bawang]

whats the deal there??? they went to sun yat-sen to check his bone density or something???to see the medical evidence of his "5 ancestors" forearm and hand conditioning??? sorry, my chinese is a wee bit rusty...

look at the xray mang

his arm is bulging but its all bone

You use bridge to create a chance for your throw.

Most of the throws require a major hand (such as Judo sleeve hold) and a minor hand (such as Judo upper collar hold).

traditional chinese martial art fight shirtless.

[Syn7]

look at the xray mang

his arm is bulging but its all bone

so then they checked the dimensions of the bone, but did they check its density???

yeah after he was hitting that wall he showed his arm and it looked all nasty... quite a price to pay for the armor... i'd rather just have a 45... im not very interested in martial arts for fighting for real, im into sports... when real violence is concerned, hand to hand is just dumb... i fought alot when i was mid to late teens and early twenties... got way too many scars, my knuckles are ugly, i have a 8 inch slash across my belly, my nose has a perma bump to it, 3 of my fingers are weird shaped, and thats just the aesthetic sh1t... totally wasnt worth any of it... but when youre 16 rumbling with weapons seems fun... now i look back and it was just stupid... i should have been ring fighting instead...

[Syn7]

traditional chinese martial art fight shirtless.

real men always pull off their shirt and peac0ck around before any fight... anything less is just uncivilized...


fukcin monkeys!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I started another thread about the iron arm x-ray, so as to not highjack this one.

[bawang]

ykw are u saying u need to make a arm bridge for a single leg takedown? not only my balls shrink, my penus has inverted. please stop. cmon man, cmon.

if ur not cantonese and u dont do wing chun theres no need to throw about bridge this bridge that.

[Syn7]

ykw are u saying u need to make a arm bridge for a single leg takedown? not only my balls shrink, my penus has inverted. please stop. cmon man, cmon.

if ur not cantonese and u dont do wing chun theres no need to throw about bridge this bridge that.

couldnt a bridge be made with any body part, in theory??? why does it have to be all about the hands?

we discuss bridges in bak mei...

[bawang]

oh so when i just touch you its called bridging? do u see how vague and stupid it is? how the hell is that a useful concept at all?

lots of people throw out jargons cuz it sounds fancy. how about u guys name some footwork? u know, combat footwork?


see the problem? southerners talk about all these hand movements but no footwork.

[Lucas]

didnt ykw start a thread about footowork?

[Syn7]

to me its not any sort of central concept... i can never remember any of the chinese names for footwork or otherwise... i always end up calling it what it sounds like when i first hear it... and they all laugh at the silly whiteboy...


how do you define a bridge???

[bawang]

easy. i dont. theres no such thing as briding.

[Lucas]

to me a bridge is made when there is contact with intent and or ability to maneuver to further control of what ever point of contact you have.

[bawang]

thats called wrestling. when you touch you wrestle. is not hard to understan ya

[Syn7]

so do you only call it a bridge if there is that follow-up??? thats how i see it... and it doesnt have to be hands... you use them in wrestling too... not just in boxing...

[Syn7]

thats called wrestling. when you touch you wrestle. is not hard to understan ya

bridging could be considered grappling, for sure...

[Lucas]

i dont really use the term but i have a personal concept. to me if i say bridge its the point of transition between no contact and asserting control. but anyone can cross a bridge. but ya you can say its just wraslin too...its all the same. just less break down.

[bawang]

bridging is in souther kung fu because they move close but dont wrestle for cultural reasons.
in northenr martial arts you have blocking and evading and clinching and wrestling nothing else priod.

u guys are rong PERIOD. brdiging will get ur ass RAPPED. RAPPED do u understand?? what happens in the old ufc? kung fu guy press forward try to make bridge. wrestler evades, double leg, pound face into ground beef and still have enough time to go home and make a sandwich.

[TenTigers]

there are different types of bridges. You don't neccesarally need to touch someone to bridge with them. You can bridge through position, connecting with his rhythm/timing, his intent, his psyche as well.(wow, deep...)
Nor do you have to give him any information through touch. If you are sensitive enough and alive in your hand, you can listen without speaking, yes?

[bawang]

ur still just talking about sensitivity. reaction. this will get u RAPED. this is why kung fu guys all wait for the other guy to do something then get knocked out quick.

u guys teach this garbage and laugh at the people who actually try to use them and fail hard.

remember the maoshan bagua vs muay thai youtube fight video? u guys all laughed at him but he was trying to use bridging.

[David Jamieson]

ur still just talking about sensitivity. reaction. this will get u RAPED. this is why kung fu guys all wait for the other guy to do something then get knocked out quick

uh, not me. I don't wait. lol

I mean, what for? You're already in the sh1t, mix it up.

[YouKnowWho]

how do you define a bridge???

IMO, the bridge is your body part touched your opponent's body part. The arm bridge is very common used and exist in all TCMA styles. In the following clip, you can see the 1st move he did (at 0.3) was trying to touch his leg on my leg (build a leg bridge). When he did that,

he could:

- know exactly where my front leg was.
- know that my front leg would not give him any problem at that moment.
- disable my back leg from his front leg control.
- sense my intention (such as resist or escape).
- response to my reaction with good timing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UMU4fwa0mo

[Lucas]

part of the reason i dont use the term, i have a personal concept but if you imagine wing chun when someone says bridge, that is your own concept. its not stop and go its just a word that is used to describe a snapshot in time. mine is similar to ten tigers, its a point of asserting control.

[bawang]

that had nothing to do with briding. ur teacher faked a sweep and made u empty ur leg.

none of u guys clearly explained what bridging is. u guys keep repeating vague obscure words.

[Lucas]

doesnt hung gar use the term bridging heavily? like bridge hands and all that?

[bawang]

cantonese styles call hands bridges and legs horses.


IMO, the bridge is your body part touched your opponent's body part.

of course when u wrestle u have to touch. rofl

[YouKnowWho]

none of u guys clearly explained what bridging is. u guys keep repeating vague obscure words.

Can you see the bridge is used in this clip (I tried to touch my arm on my opponent's arm so I can wrap it)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dutqbmf3xKU


of course when u wrestle u have to touch. rofl
The question is "how do you touch"? You don't just try to grab your opponent's balls and expose your head.

[Lucas]

i think we all, except bawang, have similar concepts....odd one out and all that. must be you. :eek:

im going to bridge your face off

[bawang]

u guise have noe honer. no honer at all

Can you see bridge is used in this clip (I tried to touch my arm on my opponent's arm so I can wrap it)?


link doesnt work

[Lucas]

its ok we bridge you and steal yours

[No_Know]

oh so when i just touch you its called bridging? do u see how vague and stupid it is? how the hell is that a useful concept at all?

lots of people throw out jargons cuz it sounds fancy. how about u guys name some footwork? u know, combat footwork?


see the problem? southerners talk about all these hand movements but no footwork.

It seems useful when talking about making contact with regards to fighting, at least..."bridge" as opposed to touch his arm, make contact, contact is made, form a connection...


The TCMA "build bridge" concept is a 2 edges sword. It can help you to listen to your opponent's intention, but it can also help your opponent to do the same to you. In order to avoid that, right after you have detected your opponent's intention through your bridge (arm or leg contact), you have to cross that bridge and destroy that bridge ASAP.

What's your favor "build bridge - set up", "cross bridge - enter", and "destroy bridge - finish" strategies if you don't mind to share here?

Building a bridge seems talk to help people relate. It's more a phrase,a permanant bridge can break to the foundation. My bridges would hopefully be portable. My bridge (so-to-speak (shake-a-can)) should last only as long as it tajes to destroy-ish.

I am not strong enough to hold a trained moving unwiling target-ish. To stay too long gets me grabbed, kr reversed...

Ou Lou Tsai is good for the pull the face into thing. But more a yank than a pull/grab at least as the drill.

I would likely have my arms out to be near incomming. Then deflect and bounce from the defletion.

No_Know

[YouKnowWho]

link doesnt work

It should work now.

[bawang]

It seems useful when talking about making contact with regards to fighting, at least..."bridge" as opposed to touch his arm, make contact, contact is made, form a connection...


this is the problem with cantonese kung fu. they are so scared of touching and making body contact they have a special word for it.

[YouKnowWho]

this is the problem with cantonese kung fu. they are so scared of touching and making body contact they have a special word for it.

What will be a better term in your opinion?

[bawang]

It should work now.

ur student held his arm out for you.


What will be a better term in your opinion?

fighting?

[Lucas]

bawang likes the term wrestling. but why even use any term if you want to do that. why even say clinch, its still wrestling. just say only wrestling for everything. but even if you go learn wrestling in high school there are break down terms there as well.

[YouKnowWho]

ykw are u saying u need to make a arm bridge for a single leg takedown? not only my balls shrink, my penus has inverted. please stop. cmon man, cmon.

if ur not cantonese and u dont do wing chun theres no need to throw about bridge this bridge that.
Without that bridge (your arms touch your opponent's arms), you will expose your head when you enter. The single leg and double legs used in the Chinese wrestling are more careful during the entry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvPXIfh9wzE

[bawang]

bawang likes the term wrestling. but why even use any term if you want to do that. why even say clinch, its still wrestling. just say only wrestling for everything. but even if you go learn wrestling in high school there are break down terms there as well.

because "bridging" is a dirty word associated with wing chun.its generic and vague and obscure.

white people dont wanna learn a lot of chinese terms so just use one word bridging. but u guys can learn all them fancy japanese judo hagi sakis waka sakas.

[YouKnowWho]

I wish there is a term in English that can represent:

To touch your body part on your opponent's body so you can hide your intention for your next move.

[bawang]

Without that bridge (your arms touch your opponent's arms), you will expose your head when you enter. The single leg and double legs used in the Chinese wrestling are more careful about that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvPXIfh9wzE

the point of single and double is 惊上取下. scare up and take down. if u try to make a bridge ur the one thats gonna be taken.

I wish there is a term that can represent:

To touch your body part on your opponent's body so you can hide your intention for your next move.

its called fake hand xu shou. kung fu doesnt need fancy terms all the time.
i find using wing chun terms to describe northern kung fu is humiliating and shameful.

[Lucas]

i just use english for pretty much everything :P i tried wing chun for like 6 month like 7 years ago but i didnt really like it...maybe it was the school but way to much form work it was all form and sand bag and sticking hands...not free sparring like i wanted.

[Lucas]

I wish there is a term in English that can represent:

To touch your body part on your opponent's body so you can hide your intention for your next move.

in english you could call it misdirection i guess...directing them to a false expectation.

[bawang]

i just use english for pretty much everything .

its not the language problem.
flying mare, nelson, crucufix, guliotine are fancy words, but they work. all those fancy southern hand movements just confuse the hell out of people.

things in martial arts are easy to remember if they work.


white people have no trouble remember all those japanese words from karate and judo.

[YouKnowWho]

all those fancy southern hand movements just confuse the hell out of people.
Can't be worse than this. :D

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11930

[Lucas]

hahahahaha weiner dog in a hotdog bun!

[YouKnowWho]

i find using wing chun terms to describe northern kung fu is humiliating and shameful.
Try not to let our WC friends on this forum to see this. :D

For a while, I thought this forum had turned into 100% WC.

[bawang]

what r u afraid of? i say it to wing chun peoples faces all the time. all the time. the worst thing that can happen some is some feminine passive aggresive sh1t. like asking to chi sao then trying to "accidentally" punch you


in chinese making contact is literally called wrestling. "xiang pu"
the act of leaping into clinch and making contact is "pu" it means pounce. the word is related to mongolian bok and manchu buku.

[wenshu]

We'll see how full of bravado you are once some one starts chain punching your mom in the balls.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/238/444395439_5051c2df47_z.jpg?zz=1

[Syn7]

WTF is up with the tiny head???

[TenTigers]

we can all use a little head now and again....

[sanjuro_ronin]

we can all use a little head now and again....

http://smithbeachwood.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/demotivational-posters-life-is-good.jpg?w=525&h=420

[YouKnowWho]

in english you could call it misdirection i guess...directing them to a false expectation.
When your arm contacts with your opponent's arm, you have not decide what you are going to do yet. It depends on your opponent's response.

For example, when you apply a back fist on your opponent's head and if he blocks. Depending on the amount of force that he blocks.

If his block is

- not strong enough, your back fist can continue and knock his block down and then change it into an upper cut.
- strong, you may borrow his block and spin your back fist into a hook punch.


brdiging will get ur ass RAPPED.
If you are

- better than your opponent, you can apply your force and run him down (Bill Gates doesn't need to borrow money to buy a new car).
- not better than your opponent, you have to borrow his force because your own force is not sufficient (I always need to borrow money to buy any car).

When you pull your opponent, if he resists, you can borrow his resistence and reverse your pull into a push. If he yields, you can borrow his yielding and continue your pulling.

[Lucas]

oh i see what you mean, i misunderstood...i cant think of a short english term for that...what is the Chinese term?

[YouKnowWho]

oh i see what you mean, i misunderstood...i cant think of a short english term for that...what is the Chinese term?

I don't have any better Chinese term other than "build bridge". When I kick or sweep my opponent's leg, my intention is not trying to break his leg, or sweep him down but to give me a "safe entry". I don't know what else to call that. All I want to know is where his leg is, and whether or not his leg will give me any trouble when I enter. The same will apply to the arm contact as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek1Ni-a92x8

[-N-]

I don't know what else to call that. All I want to know is where his leg is, and whether or not his leg will give me any trouble when I enter.

We make a joke in class for those that need to hear some kind of profound mystical kung fu fortune cookie aphorism.

"The first attack is not the real attack..."

And when the student nods all knowingly, we add...

"...except when it is."

Then we tell them to shut up and practice :)

So you're never sweeping or breaking when you enter?

Can't this be attack and attack? Injure the leg, and take him down?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OzdvprWkso&NR=1

Nice clip, btw :)

[YouKnowWho]

Can't this be attack and attack? Injure the leg, and take him down?
In my past experience, I found out that if my opponent moves in toward me, my kick and sweep can function more effective (head on collusion). When I move in and my opponent moves back, those moves won't be that effective (rear end collusion).

In another thread, people talk about "Methods to deal with attacks". IMO, if your opponent moves in toward you, it will save your efford to move in toward him. The question is whether you are ready to enter at that moment or not.

[-N-]

IMO, if your opponent moves in toward you, it will save your efford to move in toward him.
My preference too.


The question is whether you are ready to enter at that moment or not.
That's why the training :)

[SteveLau]

I have came across the purpose of sticky hand technique in a Wing Chun, Leung Teng's book that it is meant to gain advantage over the opponent in first contact. It is not meant to remain in contact with the opponent arms for long. Leung Teng also said there is a training exercise in Wing Chun that is very similar to free fight. From my recent years of sparring with live partner experience, I have come to conclude that engagement should not last for long (2 to 3 secs). One main reason is that it is dangerous to both fighters in this close distance range. So it coincides with the theology of build bridge, cross bridge, destroy bridge.



KC
Hong Kong

[YouKnowWho]

I have come to conclude that engagement should not last for long (2 to 3 secs).
Agree!

If the entering succeed, 2 to 3 seconds is all you need. If the entering fail (such as youir opponent moves back), you have to wait for next chance.

[KC Elbows]

I see it as contact of any relevance in regards to control, leverage, or balance of an opponent. Thus, conceptually it's useful, as it's not about holding forearms to each other, but any relevant contact, feeling it, knowing how to manipulate it, knowing how to stop your opponent from getting you at a disadvantage in the overall leverage game. Judo guys don't just pull counters out of their arse all the time, they have a feel for moves being attempted on them and options they have from their techniques, they certainly aren't doing things that prevent them from feeling the other guy's attempts and interpreting them, same with bjj, same with muay thai in the clinch. Bridging has become the common way for kung fu players to speak of it, it's just jargon for the same class of thing.

I agree with YKW, some form of bridging is highly advantageous for throwing. I don't know of people doing much throwing who wouldn't recognize the concept as we're talking about it.

[No_Know]

One called bawang, I think that action should be termed, Flirt." Whether one is afraid ofvthe contact or one is distracting-luring.

No_Know

[YouKnowWho]

some form of bridging is highly advantageous for throwing.
The "bridging" can also help striking as well. In the following picture, if the guy on the left releases his left hand and upper cut his opponent's chin, the guy on the right may not be fast enough to use his right arm to deflect his opponent's strike. Especially when the guy on the left, "guides" his opponent's right arm downward, and then suddently release that grip while his opponent's right arm still carry the "downward" momentum.

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/4116/wristbreaking.jpg

[DBAC]

Talk about "bridging" where the purpose is just to close the gap and make contact has always been pointless to me.

The gap will be closed and contact will be made, it is inevitable else there is no fight. So why worry about how it is done?

If I attack first, I attack with the intent of the strike. Should my opponent block, there is my contact and the force I need to keep things moving. If my opponent is aggressive, then I try and invite him to attack me and I will make contact with him when he commits. No need to give too much thought on "bridging", just fight and it will happen and so long as your sensitivity is high enough you'll change when contact is made and your kung fu can shine!

As for this business of getting in and getting back out, well to each his own. Personally if I am trying hard to get in in the first place I am going to stay there until I end the fight. Only reason I am going to get out is if he is better than me close up, at which point I will get out of dodge and fight another day.

[YouKnowWho]

No need to give too much thought on "bridging",
It depend's on your favor finish moves. If your favor finish move is to pull your opponent head into your knee then you may want to obtain that MT clinching ASAP. In order to do so, you will need a "plan". Without plan, your opponent will lead the fight and you may have to box him for 15 rounds. With your plan, you may lead the fight and get your MT clinch within just few seconds.


The gap will be closed and contact will be made, it is inevitable else there is no fight. So why worry about how it is done?
Again, if your favor finish move is "overhooks with headbutt" then to "set up (or achieve)" an overhook is different from to set up an underhook.

In the following clip at 2.45 - 2.50.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaLvcM-u4ns

[TenTigers]

As for this business of getting in and getting back out, well to each his own. Personally if I am trying hard to get in in the first place I am going to stay there until I end the fight. .

Jook Lum poem:
"Hand to Hand,
Heart to Heart,
You don't Move,
I won't start.
But, if you Move,
I'll Hit First,
and I won't Stop
Until there's Blood."

[sanjuro_ronin]

Jook Lum poem:
"Hand to Hand,
Heart to Heart,
You don't Move,
I won't start.
But, if you Move,
I'll Hit First,
and I won't Stop
Until there's Blood."

Isn't that sung to Loverboy's "everybodys working for the weekend"?

[YouKnowWho]

But, if you Move,
I'll Hit First,
and I won't Stop
Until there's Blood."

That's old Chinese saying, "出手見紅(Chu Shou Jian Hong) - If you fight, you have to see some red color".

[Ben Gash]

Hand fighting, pummelling, and head movement all come under bridging. It's what happens between punching and clinching, and a construct to teach principles related to this. It's not mystical, it's not even especially unique, indeed if more kung fu people were better at it then maybe there'd be less discussion about it.

[YouKnowWho]

The bridge concept was heavily used in the ancient sword fight. You touch your sword against your opponent's sword. From your sowrd contact, you can sense your opponent's intention. When the time is right, you press your opponent's sword in such a way that his sword won't cause you any trouble at that moment, you then enter and attack.

[Ben Gash]

In most forms of sword fighting blade to blade contact is avoided. Historically swords were expensive and blade to blade contact typically damaged them. You also don't want to have to face a day long battle with a bent and broken sword.

[YouKnowWho]

Historically swords were expensive and blade to blade contact typically damaged them.

I have a gold plated Colt 45 that I paid $750 for back in the 70th. I always keep it clean and shining and afraid to use it. Oneday my friends invited to to go to Montana for a month. I brought my stanless steel Walther PPK. My friend laughted at me and said that my Walther PPK won't do me any good if I have to deal with a full grow grizzly bear. I took my gold plated Colt 45 instead. After that trip, I understood that no matter how expensive my weapon may be, my life is much more important. :D

[Ben Gash]

Then pay more attention to the second half of my post. .45 is unlikely to stop a full grown grizzly as well ;) Historically direct blade to blade contact was the defence of last resort, and may well not have been effective anyway, as swords tend to break under such impacts.

[YouKnowWho]

In most forms of sword fighting blade to blade contact is avoided.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LnRwWdNjx8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZWtLjha7Es&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH-wAZvE07U&feature=related

[Ben Gash]

riiigggghhhhhhhttttttttt.......................

[Frost]

Hand fighting, pummelling, and head movement all come under bridging. It's what happens between punching and clinching, and a construct to teach principles related to this. It's not mystical, it's not even especially unique, indeed if more kung fu people were better at it then maybe there'd be less discussion about it.

this is so true
And i get so f*cked off with guys saying our bridging covers all the above when all you see them doing is forearm sensitivity drills for 90% of their bridging training (mostly southern guys ill admit)

[sanjuro_ronin]

In most forms of sword fighting blade to blade contact is avoided. Historically swords were expensive and blade to blade contact typically damaged them. You also don't want to have to face a day long battle with a bent and broken sword.

Quite correct.
My experience in Kenjutsu and the spanish and portuguese schools of swordsmanship tells me the same thing.
Not only because of the damage to the blade concern, but that NOT blocking allowed the swordsman more options of attack and didn't commit his blade.
Striking first and evade and strike were the preferred methods.

[lkfmdc]

IN recent years, there has been a renewed interest in medieval / renaissance martial arts manuals and several are now available translated, improved pics and commentary... remarkable AND useful stuff, since they captured the actual techniques that were being used back when the stuff was REALLY being used

[Ben Gash]

this is so true
And i get so f*cked off with guys saying our bridging covers all the above when all you see them doing is forearm sensitivity drills for 90% of their bridging training (mostly southern guys ill admit)

Lack of pressure is the culprit there I feel. In a real fight you're not going to do 2 minutes of hand fighting, yet in too many schools (especially WC schools) you see just that with people just standing in front of each other with no forward pressure.

[lkfmdc]

some pics fer ya

[Darthlawyer]

some pics fer ya

What's that guy doing to the other guy in the one marked "8." on the top left of it and "40" in the top middle? In my school we have a form called "Monkey Steals the Peach" but that appears to be "Monkey Lovingly Caresses the Peach with His Mouth."

[David Jamieson]

Isn't that sung to Loverboy's "everybodys working for the weekend"?

I'm pretty sure it's sung to the tune of "friends in low places" by Garth Brooks...:D

[David Jamieson]

What's that guy doing to the other guy in the one marked "8." on the top left of it and "40" in the top middle? In my school we have a form called "Monkey Steals the Peach" but that appears to be "Monkey Lovingly Caresses the Peach with His Mouth."

tackle double leg takedown.

i guess it could be adapted to a throw and blow or a down and brown...

This looks like a dude in a mask wrestling a vampire.
Like Luchadores with knives!
http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6090&stc=1&d=1302876781

[YouKnowWho]

In most forms of sword fighting blade to blade contact is avoided.
I was not talking about "hard" block by using your sword unless you are holding a Chinese weapon 锏(Jian) - a special weapon designed to break your opponent's sword.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://attach.scimg.cn/month_0905/20090517_d5a1601c1c8ebeb476e8A3vx136yCtzp.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php%3Fp%3D971834&usg=__reNPA-3ilvNk08obMBG7QIgez-c=&h=548&w=730&sz=190&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=HaqrZhylspYZ_M:&tbnh=131&tbnw=175&ei=o36oTaqcI4-Wtwen1YXeBw&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25E9%2594%258F%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26 rlz%3D1I7DLUS_en%26biw%3D1379%26bih%3D857%26tbm%3D isch%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=782&vpy=457&dur=118&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=201&ty=90&oei=o36oTaqcI4-Wtwen1YXeBw&page=1&ndsp=35&ved=1t:429,r:18,s:0

If you:

- "gently" touch your sword against your opponent's sword,
- press his sword to his "left",
- slide your sword along of his sword (remain contact),
- enter through his "right" (so his sword is no threaten to you), and
- cut his throat at the same time.

That's the TCMA "bridge" concept.

[JamesC]

Number 16 in the top picture is definitely Surprise Buttsecks.

[bawang]

I was not talking about "hard" block by using your sword unless you are holding a Chinese weapon 锏(Jian) - a special weapon designed to break your opponent's sword.

ur rong. the only weapon that uses bridging is spears in formation. spear fighting is the source of the bad habits in chinese boxing

[YouKnowWho]

In the following clip at 1.10, the person on the left

- sink her body,
- move her sword lower than her opponent's sword,
- used her sword to "挂(Gua) - comb hair" to deflect her opponent's sword to her left,
- she then enters on the left side of her opponent's sword, and
- finished with a chop to the head.

That "挂(Gua) - comb hair" is the TCMA "build bridge".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-PX24NFL4k&feature=related

[bawang]

in the video they just tapped each others head i didnt see any technique. looks stupid

[YouKnowWho]

looks stupid

What do you expect? That's "Japanese" sword fight. :p

[Lucas]

when you learn kendo you are learing also how to score points in the game. learning kendo wont teach you really how to sword fight, it will teach you kendo. just like in any sport there are 'illegal' techniques. you are confined by your rules. kenjutsu and kendo are different.

kenjutsu sparring:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPH09fZ0-XU&feature=related

at :45 is nice ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62aDf27j3NE

you can easily see the difference here....if you at least know what you are looking for in the first place. :p

you also have to keep in mind for sake of really learning from sparring the people sparring are not treating the weapons as training but as live. they die many times lol.

also if you think and you are going to duel someone with a sword, you will not care about how pretty or how 'correct' you are, you will care about not dying. just like any other form of combat.

what is fun here in the second vid is at 2:25 they use the two swords.

not many people spar with weapons now days, i dont think you should learn any weapons at all if you are not going to ever spar. just like if you are going to learn any empty hand and not spar you will be false. i think many cma people never have even spar once with wooden or padded weapons. i have to go outside school to spar with my cma weapons......its always just form, drill, and two man drill but no live sparring.

[bawang]

hey man if u spar wit weapons try to spar sword against spear. it open ur eyes
sword is for assault infantry to flank the sides of a spear formation. in chinese martial art almost every technique of the sword is against spear

[Lucas]

i dont like to spar agianst spears lol. not if the guy knows how to use it i get hit too much...maybe im not good enough with swords, but its a bit easier if you use two swords. if you can use an axe in one hand its a bit better because you can control the spear better if its a bearded or crescent axe.

[Lucas]

hey man if u spar wit weapons try to spar sword against spear. it open ur eyes
sword is for assault infantry to flank the sides of a spear formation. in chinese martial art almost every technique of the sword is against spear

that makes a lot of sense..

[YouKnowWho]

Most of the moves that you can find in the sword fight, you can find it in the open hand form.

[Lucas]

hey bawang you seem to know alot about old military methods, does someone teach you your information or do you research or pick it up from here and there?

[Lucas]

hey guys look at these sparring weapons. we should ge zulu war spears lol and see they have 3 sction staffs too

http://www.rsw.com.hk/products.htm

[bawang]

hey bawang you seem to know alot about old military methods, does someone teach you your information or do you research or pick it up from here and there?
i learned tai chi pear flower spear and heavy spear. they are military weapons so i read military manuals to understand them better.

[Lucas]

there probably isnt a place wehre manuals like that are translated into english is there? if u can translate you can sell them an make tons of cashola! i'll buy some lol

[bawang]

if u have any questions about spear ask me ill tell u right here right now

there was some random chinese guy who did kendo and advertised selling his own translations ebooks of those manuals here. but it was pure dogsh1t.

many people try to translate these manuals, but they always mistake military battle language for poetic fortune cookie sayings.

[Lucas]

if u have any questions about spear ask me ill tell u right here right now

there was some random chinese guy who did kendo and advertised selling his own translations ebooks of those manuals here. but it was pure dogsh1t.

many people try to translate these manuals, but they always mistake military battle language for poetic fortune cookie sayings.

lol thats why you need to translate them so its right.

but i suck i dont know spear, i want to learn it but i never did yet.for cma i only know staff, broadsword, and my friend is teaching me straightsword. :(

its hard around here to find good cma for weapons...

[bawang]

lol thats why you need to translate them so its right.



chinese kung fu people rarely mention those old prestigious military manuals because their contents say everything in kung fu today is wrong, that most of the traditions today except for branches of longfist came from street performing charlatans. that what we see today as "evolution" is corruption and vanity.
just the act of twirling a sword or staff was denounced by generals as evil and perverse.

[Lucas]

chinese kung fu people rarely mention those old prestigious military manuals because their contents say everything in kung fu today is wrong

LOL even more reason mang. we need to challenge peoples retardedness because nothing else can fix whats wrong today. but you know im not chinese so its not the same thing for me. i can understand how it would be hard to show people the truth if they dont want to see it. its jus tlike my signature line here ...

[Lucas]

hey man u trying to tell me 720 arial butterfly ass twist is not the real tradition? i dont belive u man. i hav eto go twirl my swords now and do some splits lolol

[bawang]

theres nothing to fix. kung fu became the way is today in order to SURVIVE. survival has always been the reason. ur asking thousands of sifus worldwide to willingly smash their own rice bowl.

[Lucas]

ya i know, its not cool, im an ass hole :D (its easy because im white) but also i get what you mean and at the same time there is a lot of good kungfu still. i also think it is getting stronger, it took a lot to make it to here and now there are a lot of people working to make what they do work. there are a lot of real fighters out there using cma for real

also i think the more we make distinction between performance and reality based the better.

[bawang]

look man, sometimes we hobbyists in america get too into it and wanna "save kung fu". kung fu doesnt need saving. its alive and well in chinese countryside. there are villages where kung fu place more importance than job or education. its not gonna die out.

it seems like its dying because a lot of good kung fu people in china dont talk to communist government and foreigners. a lot of the remnants of the boxing rebellion tradition still remain very secretive.

[Lucas]

look man, sometimes we hobbyists in america get too into it and wanna "save kung fu". kung fu doesnt need saving. its alive and well in chinese countryside. there are villages where kung fu place more importance than job or education. its not gonna die out.

it seems like its dying because a lot of good kung fu people in china dont talk to communist government and foreigners.

ya i hear u bro... but isnt being american all about being self centered and butting into things we dont need to though? :p

but for seriously though, why dont you translate some of those manuals man? even one ill buy it from you lol u could do like 1 a year and make it digital and then u never have to do it again.

[bawang]

because those books are thousands of pages with 5 pages on boxing, and 200 pages on how to setup tents

[Lucas]

rofl! ok i dont need to know how to set up a tent. but here for you juts a thought maybe think about it some day, compile all the things that are relevant and make one book out of it all. you could arrange it appropriately and then help a lot of us guys out that will never be able to read. i mean..man im not going to learn chinese any time soon lol but i know i cant be the only person that would be interested in reading those. i know it can be a lot of work but maybe if you just do a little bit here and there after a few years its all done and then u can be some good benefit to a lot of us. i know u dont care about us guys but think of the MONIES MANG!

[bawang]

i cannot reveal the inner secrets of wutang to the hairy ones

[Lucas]

LOLOLOL! ok well i wont bother u about if for a while now about its since u give me the big hook up...but i will return !

[Ben Gash]

I was not talking about "hard" block by using your sword unless you are holding a Chinese weapon 锏(Jian) - a special weapon designed to break your opponent's sword.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://attach.scimg.cn/month_0905/20090517_d5a1601c1c8ebeb476e8A3vx136yCtzp.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php%3Fp%3D971834&usg=__reNPA-3ilvNk08obMBG7QIgez-c=&h=548&w=730&sz=190&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=HaqrZhylspYZ_M:&tbnh=131&tbnw=175&ei=o36oTaqcI4-Wtwen1YXeBw&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25E9%2594%258F%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26 rlz%3D1I7DLUS_en%26biw%3D1379%26bih%3D857%26tbm%3D isch%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=782&vpy=457&dur=118&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=201&ty=90&oei=o36oTaqcI4-Wtwen1YXeBw&page=1&ndsp=35&ved=1t:429,r:18,s:0

If you:

- "gently" touch your sword against your opponent's sword,
- press his sword to his "left",
- slide your sword along of his sword (remain contact),
- enter through his "right" (so his sword is no threaten to you), and
- cut his throat at the same time.

That's the TCMA "bridge" concept.

Except traditionally and functionally it should be done against the wrist, not the sword :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

ur rong. the only weapon that uses bridging is spears in formation. spear fighting is the source of the bad habits in chinese boxing

in some yes it is. There are examples of weapons techniques being strung together in form and then reprocessed as empty hand sets. The meaning becomes lost and the result is difficult to get functional high percentage results of attack and defense knowledge development.

spear fighting is the source of a lot in tcma, i agree. as it is the so called king of weapons, it stands to reason there were many who knew it's use and passed that on and so on and so forth.

telephone...ring ring ring ring ring..bananaphone.....ring ring ring ring....purple monkey dishwasher.....etc.

:p

[YouKnowWho]

Except traditionally and functionally it should be done against the wrist, not the sword :rolleyes:
When your opponent uses his sword to stab you, you step back and try to use your sword to cut his wrist. That's the training method but hard to do in combat IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFXqY5r6g-k

[David Jamieson]

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
I was not talking about "hard" block by using your sword unless you are holding a Chinese weapon 锏(Jian) - a special weapon designed to break your opponent's sword.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...t:429,r:18,s:0

If you:

- "gently" touch your sword against your opponent's sword,
- press his sword to his "left",
- slide your sword along of his sword (remain contact),
- enter through his "right" (so his sword is no threaten to you), and
- cut his throat at the same time.

That's the TCMA "bridge" concept.


Except traditionally and functionally it should be done against the wrist, not the sword :rolleyes:

I think what john is describing is several ways to achieve a riposté which is launching an attack off the momentum of a defense. Or, attacking immediately following a parry.

The rules of blade use include attacking the nearest threat/object to you. This is typically your opponents outstretched, weapon holding hand. So yes, in a singular attack to the opponent, it is logical to seek and tap or slash/pierce his wrist.

But a bridge in weapon fighting is inclusive of the blades meeting in one or the other parrying an attack. The bridge in that context is the parry.

[Ben Gash]

I understand what he's describing, but it fundamentally won't work. By committing your blade on top of your opponent's and leaving it there you are inviting him to perform Tiu and stab you in the wrist.

[YouKnowWho]

I understand what he's describing, but it fundamentally won't work. By committing your blade on top of your opponent's and leaving it there you are inviting him to perform Tiu and stab you in the wrist.

In TCMA, it's better to be on top than to be on the bottom. When your sword is on top of your opponent's sword, you can press his sword down, you then slide and press your sword froward, this will make your body to be away from the tip of your opponent's sword until your blade can cut your opponent's throat. When your cut your opponent's head off, you already run pass and behind him. There is a fast forward footwork involved here. You touch your opponent's sword, you start to run toward him and away from his blade. Hope this can clear up a little bit.

[Ben Gash]

There's nothing to clear up, I know what you're describing and have been taight it in the past. However, it is fundamentally flawed and does not represent historical (ie authentic) usage.

[YouKnowWho]

There's nothing to clear up, I know what you're describing and have been taight it in the past. However, it is fundamentally flawed and does not represent historical (ie authentic) usage.
Here is a short clip for that. Not sure what "fundamentally flawed" and "historical (ie authentic) usage" that you are talking about here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmfmXTK_jIs

[Lucas]

did u just film that? those are shinai u traitor ! :p

:D

[Ben Gash]

Here is a short clip for that. Not sure what "fundamentally flawed" and "historical (ie authentic) usage" that you are talking about here?


Then you've not read any of the discussion :rolleyes:

[YouKnowWho]

did u just film that? those are shinai u traitor ! :p

:D
I just filmed that 10 minutes ago. I use that to train 苗刀(Maio Dao) 2 men drills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4Q27znmM2Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh3e-7KKmRE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pqjRwb3RhM&feature=related


Then you've not read any of the discussion :rolleyes:
Still not sure what you are talking about here? :confused:

The usage of 苗刀(Maio Dao) may be different from the usage of 剑(Jian).

[Ben Gash]

The several posts discussing the lack of blade contact in genuine sword fighting, the wrist and hand as primary target for defensive strokes, and the technical vulnerabilities of the technique, which you've countered with kung fu movies, kendo, LARP and forms :confused::confused::confused:

[Ben Gash]

In response to your edit, for Miao Dao I was taught that you could block with the back of the blade, but again blade up defensive strokes were targeted at the opponent's arms.

[YouKnowWho]

The several posts discussing the lack of blade contact in genuine sword fighting, the wrist and hand as primary target for defensive strokes, and the technical vulnerabilities of the technique, which you've countered with kung fu movies, kendo, LARP and forms :confused::confused::confused:

苗刀(Maio Dao) is ancient Chinese weapon. It's not Kendo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miao_dao

Even if I may have referenced Kendo, it's still in the area of sword/knife skill. Sword fight is sowrd fight. Whether it's Chinese, Japanese, or European, it's still sword fight.

As far as "the wrist and hand as primary target", that's the idea situation which may be too far away from the combat reality.

[Ben Gash]

No, blade on blade blocking is not combat reality, as evidenced by every historical work on sword combat.
You've shown one video of Miao Dao and 3 or 4 of Kendo. TBF, if you'd said Miao Dao at the start this conversation things might have been simpler, as I'll concede that the technique *might* work in Miao Dao against Miao Dao, although again I think that there's a very real risk of turning your opponent's blade into a slice at your leg. However, I very much doubt you could manage subtle bridging gings with a Miao Dao.
Miao Dao is one of the least common swords in TCMA, and indeed was only really in general use for a brief period at the end of the Ming. Therefore if you say sword fighting Miao Dao is not what springs immeadiately to mind. It also doesn't help that the action is a commonly mistaught Jian/Gim technique.

[KC Elbows]

No, blade on blade blocking is not combat reality, as evidenced by every historical work on sword combat.

In fairness, blade on blade in both eastern and western swordwork is to be avoided, but happens. and, in fairness, we're talking the end of the blade, and all edge on edge, and any perusal of actual swords from Europe, Japan, China, etc, that saw historical battle, will often reveal telltale marks of blade on blade contact having occured.

[bawang]

苗刀(Maio Dao) is ancient Chinese weapon.

nope dfgdfgh

[SPJ]

I just filmed that 10 minutes ago. I use that to train 苗刀(Maio Dao) 2 men drills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4Q27znmM2Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh3e-7KKmRE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pqjRwb3RhM&feature=related


Still not sure what you are talking about here? :confused:

The usage of 苗刀(Maio Dao) may be different from the usage of 剑(Jian).

thank you for sharing as always.

:cool:

[Lucas]

every time i spar with wooden blades i will parry at one point or another with blade on blade contact, maybe i suck or dont have the elit skills but meh....rather that than lose a leg/arm/etc....i try for side or spine contact but even that isnt possible all the time when you do parry/block the reposte is just a contact for a moment of time but if you trap or lure someone into an opening you can get your favorites into play...it can also depend on how tired/worn out you are....