The TCMA Doors Concept

[YouKnowWho]

Let's define some terms here first:

1. front door - space between your both arms.
2. right side door - space outside of your right arm.
3. left side door - space outside of your left arm.
4. back door - space behind your back.

You may open your opponent's:

- front door and enter,
- right side door and enter,
- left side door and enter,
- right/left side door, pass through it, and enter his back door.

In the following clip, you enter your opponent's "right side door" by using:

- kick to build leg bridge (set up).
- punch to build arm bridge (set up).
- leading arm to jam the back arm to destroy arm bridge (open his side door).
- foot sweep to take him down (enter and finish).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVlrDtvnP4M

What's your favor set up, open, enter, and finish stratgies that you like to use if you don't mind to share here? With some youtube clip will be helpful for our discussion.

[-N-]

Facing opponent both are left lead.

- right roundhouse sweep kick, right reverse fung left high line punch, right back palm, left underhook, reverse guillotine or take down

Facing opponent both are right lead.

- right fung left tung chui, left reverse fung right high line punch, aerial ou lou tsai, groin kick or roundhouse sweep kick - all in one run

I stopped using that one because it was too effective.

Right lead agaist left lead.

- left belly caving punch, right inside ou lou tsai cutting palm and right roundhouse sweep kick

or

- left jump roundhouse kick, left reverse fung right highline punch, aerial ou lou tsai, jump front kick - all in one run

Left lead against right lead.

- left reverse fung right highline punch, right inside ou lou tsai, right groin kick

Maybe more related to your other post, but Mantis uses speed "bridge".

[SPJ]

in addition to left and right door

there are also 3 levels or plates, high mid and low.

I used to pay attention to these distinctions

but if you somehow pass or control the wrist and elbow

you are close enough to deal with the shoulder, chest and back

then you may flip to throw, kao strike, kao shuai, either way or left or right

thus the saying

yi da / first hit

ding zhou / then elbow techniques

zuo you shuai / throw either left or right

---

[YouKnowWho]

Could you guys share some clips here so we can make this thread more interest? I have thrown out a brick. I do hope to invite some jade here. The stupid bird always fly first.


Mantis uses speed "bridge".
What do you mean "speed bridge"?

[SPJ]

the hands are like 2 doors

it all depends on the feet to win.

shou si liang shan men

quan ping jiao da ren.

---

[-N-]

Could you guys share some clips here so we can make this thread more interest? I have thrown out a brick. I do hope to invite some jade here. The stupid bird always fly first.


What do you mean "speed bridge"?

Well, maybe I'm twisting the concept around a little.

But I was relating it to your posts where you talk about getting in and making contact to determine(or control) the other person's intent and delivering your attack before he can read and attack you.

For those that focus on the speed aspect of Mantis, you just get in by pure speed. The opponent's intent is controlled by its own inertia relative to your attack. In a way, you bridge his mind and his spirit. And don't even bother with the contact.

In this video, the opening move is kwun jeong(which you called back palm). If kwun jeong makes contact - some call that bridge... the attacker is already too late.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFA25nNV8hM

My apologies for the student's performance. Some of the movements were new to him, and you can see he still doesn't understand them.

You might have heard Brendan Lai say, "Technique can be matched against technique, but nothing can match speed." Maybe not to be taken literally, but interesting to think about.

[SPJ]

depending on styles. there are ways to go either left or right, either indoor or outdoor.

1. yin style ba gua, it is noted for triple penetrating palms, san chuan zhang

2. tai ji, you may use cloud hand, ---

3. mantis, gou lou cai gua

either hand may do gou or lou, and go inside, out side at will

such as left gou and right cai, vice versa

along with foot work or changing steps of course.

or hand work alone is not enough, positioning/facing or step changes are necessary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwtzY-dR0aU

steps first, steps in between, steps in the end

nancy sinatra

:cool:

[YouKnowWho]

but nothing can match speed.

I agree that

- 会打快(Hui Da Kuai) - know how can defeat speed,
- 快打慢(Kuai Da Man) - speed can defeat no speed,
- 慢打不会(Man Da Bu Hui) - no speed can defeat don't know how.

The speed is a relative thing. When you do "fly fishing", if you throw your bait too

- slow, your bait won't look real for your fish.
- fast, your fish won't have enough time to bite it.

This is why TCMA is an arts and not science.

[-N-]

I agree that

- 会打快(Hui Da Kuai) - know how can defeat speed

Well if it's kung fu, it has to be skilled speed. Otherwise it's just flailing.


The speed is a relative thing. When you do "fly fishing", if you move too

- fast, your fish won't have enough time to bite on your bait.

If your opponent is that slow, you just kill him with the bait :)

Again, it is to intercept his mind, rather than his hand. You don't rely on physical contact to read his intent.

Based on this thread, the best method would be Nancy Sinatra using Jedi mind tricks :D

[YouKnowWho]

Well if it's kung fu, it has to be skilled speed. Otherwise it's just flailing.
If your opponent is that slow, you just kill him with the bait :)

Again, it is to intercept his mind, rather than his hand. You don't rely on physical contact to read his intent.

Based on this thread, the best method would be Nancy Sinatra using Jedi mind tricks :D
I know exactly what you are talking about. You move in with lighting striking speed and hit on your opponent's face 6 or 7 times before he even has chance to raise his arms to block it. When you apply this strategy, you don't care about "bridge" but to enter through your opponent's opening and run him down like a tank. This approach made me to fall in love with the mantis system in the first place.

Unfortunately, we will need a dependable strategy when we get old, speed should not be the only thing that we have to depend on. If speed is everything then when we get old (lost our speed), any young 20 years old can beat us up. That will be very sad indeed. I agree that in the striking range, the speed is important. In the clinching range, the speed is not that important any more. The know how become more important. This is why when we get old, we want to get as close to our opponent as possible before we get knock out. :(

If you can wrap your opponent's arms (like an octopus wraps around prey) and temporary disable his striking ability, the speed won't matter any more, you can then consume him slowly after that. :D

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/9103/octopuswrapprey.jpg

[-N-]

I can understand why that octopus is taking his time :D

[-N-]

Unfortunately, we will need a dependable strategy when we get old, speed should not be the only thing that we have to depend on. If speed is everything then when we get old (lost our speed), any young 20 years old can beat us up.

I heard the story about when your teacher met my teacher.

He told Brendan Lai, "I heard you were fast."

And it proceeded from there.

Sounded like your teacher had no problem with age and speed :)

[YouKnowWho]

Brendan Lai was once the advisor of the "International Shuai Chiao Association".

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/8913/brendanlai.jpg

[-N-]

I know exactly what you are talking about. You move in with lighting striking speed and hit on your opponent's face 6 or 7 times before he even has chance to raise his arms to block it. When you apply this strategy, you don't care about "bridge" but to enter through your opponent's opening and run him down like a tank. This approach made me to fall in love with the mantis system in the first place.

That is one way.

But there is also speed in transition. Speed in leading the opponent's intent.

It only looks like physical speed.

Japanese sword writings would say it is a mental opening.


Unfortunately, we will need a dependable strategy when we get old, speed should not be the only thing that we have to depend on. If speed is everything then when we get old (lost our speed), any young 20 years old can beat us up. That will be very sad indeed. I agree that in the striking range, the speed is important. In the clinching range, the speed is not that important any more. The know how become more important. This is why when we get old, we want to get as close to our opponent as possible before we get knock out. :(


Wisdom and laziness can be good complements to speed :)

Once you are in contact, it isn't the speed to close in. But it is still the speed and relaxation in the transitions. I've seen this in the videos you've posted.

You still rely on mind speed.


If you can wrap your opponent's arms (like an octopus wraps around prey) and temporary disable his striking ability, the speed won't matter any more, you can then consume him slowly after that. :D


Sounds like a plug for BJJ :)

We still prefer not to have protracted contact. We still can use body to body striking. Two of us classmates liked to train short range body striking.

If you are that close, body strike and/or throw, and disengage. Even from outside range, close in, strike, body strike, takedown and/or disengage.

One classmate watched us train body striking. He asked to join in. My partner went first. He is lighter than me. I didn't get my turn. When the classmate came back a week later, he showed us under his shirt. The entire right half of his upper torso was purple and yellow from the previous week.

[-N-]

YKW,

Here's a clip that might be useful for discussion.

Lots of stuff going on here. Maybe interesting to analyze, or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN-tFPZeqBc

Comments?

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN-tFPZeqBc

This is the general sparring pattern, you move in, your opponent moves back. Your opponent moves in, you move back. It's fun to spar this way when you are young. The fight may last for a while. When you get older, you may want to take your opponent down ASAP.

People have to develop their striking skill through this kind of sparring, at the sametime they also have to develop their grappling skill through wrestling. After that, they can then integrate their striking skill and grappling skill. There is no short cut for that. It will be a long training path and not everybody can reach to the final goal.

[SPJ]

YKW,

Here's a clip that might be useful for discussion.

Lots of stuff going on here. Maybe interesting to analyze, or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN-tFPZeqBc

Comments?

1. both know how to distance, keeping a kicking distance away,

2. facing your opponent all the time

3. if the opponent is coming fast with punches, stop him with a low kick to knee/shee, mid kick to the abdomen, to keep him away.

4. leg sweep if close enough

5. body contact, throwing/wrestling starts

6. forearm strike/kao, elbow strike/kao, lower leg hook forward, lower leg sweep backward, chest/shoulder/hip/butt kao, grab/pull, good drills.

7. they have the luxury of half basket ball court to run about.

:)

[-N-]

Thanks for the comments.

I liked the distancing.

They have a limited repetoire of skills in this video.

I liked the stop kicks.

I liked that green shirt runs in with 3-5 high shots and throws the kick.

White shirt only knew straight line retreat and could get overrun.

White shirt is too tentative. You can see him throw single noncommitted motions.

I liked that white shirt tried to sweep. And later tried to followup with low kick when the sweep missed. But his leg attacks needed more committment as well.

Sequence starting at 1:30 is funny.

White shirt starts with tentative motion. The 2nd time he tries, green shirt tries to grab and control. Green shirt messes up and has to get back out.

So white shirt gets the idea to try to grab green shirt's arm. But again, he is too tentative. And he makes the mistake of attempting the same thing 3 times. On his 3rd try, green shirt has timed him and runs in with multiple high low shots and a kick.

I like at 1:59 that green shirt throws his shin kick while running in with his punches.

I like at 2:02 that green shirt uses a kick to counter/cover the kick from white shirt.

I like the timing of the kick at 2:09.

I like that white shirt tried to get green shirt's back. Green knew not to let that happen.

Basketball court is nice. Except when it's raining :)

[YouKnowWho]

Basketball court is nice.

Ground may be too hard. I prefer dirt or grass ground incase one has to fall.

[-N-]

There is a grass area nearby. We will use it when the weather dries more :)

[David Jamieson]

Doors concept:

Love me 2 times.
Once for tomorrow and once just for today.
Love me two times, then I'm gone away.

Yeah, that's the stuff....

[Lucas]

I'm more of a riders on the storm kind of guy:p

[SPJ]

doors the band?

:confused:

[Lucas]

lol ya he was making a funny

[nubianmantis]

Brendan Lai was once the advisor of the "International Shuai Chiao Association".

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/8913/brendanlai.jpg

yes, family;That fact about sifu brendan lai is stated in I.S.C.A./shuai chiao handbook on pages 6&7. A very rare items these days. be well.

[YouKnowWho]

I was trying to get some of those WC guys to join in this discussion. I assume this topic may be so general that everybody can participate. I have failed big time so far. :(

[-N-]

You must be bored :)

Maybe you should show them the octopus picture :D

[YouKnowWho]

You must be bored :)

Maybe you should show them the octopus picture :D
I did but still didn't work. :o

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60041&page=3

[David Jamieson]

I was trying to get some of those WC guys to join in this discussion. I assume this topic may be so general that everybody can participate. I have failed big time so far. :(

Change the subject to:

Chain Punching, Trapping, Bruce Lee's original Wing Chun and the TCMA doors concept.

You should get a flock of them in here lickity split. :p

[SPJ]

doors concept applies to arms, legs, body facing and steps.

it is a huge topic.

in addition to your inside and outside scenario.

there are also upside, downside, oblique/crossing, forward and backward considerations/factors.

for example, in tong bei, we consider 3 levels/plates a lot.

1, you introduce a back hand fist from top down to the opponent's face. it is an inviting hand or lead/guide hand, you want the opponent to block.

2. you then turn around your palm and grab his blocking hand, you open his door by tearing down or splitting it open or lie men

3, you may go upward to open his door or tiao zhang.

so it is not just left and right,

there are also up and down and cross

etc etc.

:)

[YouKnowWho]

If you have right side forward and your opponent has left side forward (mirror stance), it's much easier to get into your opponent's back door. In the following clip, you can see how quickly that my opponent could move into my back door at 0.3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UMU4fwa0mo

Not sure the back door will make much sense in the striking art, but it's very important for the throwing art. The moment that your opponent move into your front door, you are automatically in his back door.


Change the subject to:

Chain Punching, Trapping, Bruce Lee's original Wing Chun and the TCMA doors concept.

You should get a flock of them in here lickity split. :p
You are right! I also train WC but I don't like to look at TCMA from any particular style. I know that I don't belong to the main stream and my "no style boundary" may upset others.

[-N-]

If you have right side forward and your opponent has left side forward (mirror stance), it's much easier to get into your opponent's back door.

True. Though I'll go in through the front for the intimidation factor. It is like you totally demoralize the opponent. You make him feel like there's nothing he can do to stop you from going in directly and taking what you want.

[YouKnowWho]

True. Though I'll go in through the front for the intimidation factor. It is like you totally demoralize the opponent. You make him feel like there's nothing he can do to stop you from going in directly and taking what you want.
My teacher always said, "when you defeat your opponent through the side door, your opponent may not admit his defeat and blame on his bad luck (or your good luck). When you enter his front door and throw him over your head, he will 100% admit his defeat and will never challenge you again".

Since my teacher was a right side offense person. He converted his brother into a left side defense person. That was why his brother liked to enter through the back door (don't get any wrong idea here :D).

[-N-]

when you enter his front door and throw him over your head, he will 100% admit his defeat and will never challenge you again"

:D

lkjhlkh;;lkj;lj;kg;

[SPJ]

My teacher always said, "when you defeat your opponent through the side door, your opponent may not admit his defeat and blame on his bad luck (or your good luck). When you enter his front door and throw him over your head, he will 100% admit his defeat and will never challenge you again".



second that.

:cool:

[YouKnowWho]

Old TCMA saying said, "If you think you are better than your opponent, enter his front door, otherwise, enter his side door".

When I fight against a big guy, I always like to enter his front door. It's a challenge for myself whether my skill is good enough to handle a big guy or not. The problem is if my opponent keeps moving back, my front door entry won't work very well.

Will it be nice that if your opponent can just commit himself and attack you with full speed and full power? It will save you a lot of trouble trying to apply your entering strategy. When your opponent enters, either he knocks you out or you finish him, there will be no need to fight for 15 rounds. If you are no longer in your 30, your opponent's attack will be the best you can wish for.

[-N-]

If you are no longer in your 30, your opponent's attack will be the best you can wish for.

We tell our students that they should be happy when their opponent attacks :)