PDA

View Full Version : Time to make traditionalists and NHB fighters alike, ****ed off!



Ryu
09-04-2001, 04:59 AM
Well I have been spending some time on stand-up this last week or so, and ground and pound, and of course judo. I'm about to give one of my famous little "Ryu's ponderings" so those of you who wince at the thought press the backspace button on your browser now. :)

I have come to somewhat of a conclusion about myself and my training. LOL, and I'm not sure if NHB fighters or traditionalists alike will like the idea. Though I am always one to say exactly what's on my mind, regardless.

Well first off, I am someone that really wants to find realistic ways of self-defense and protection of other people. And ....well I do not mean this as a flame, nor do I want to start a flame war in any way (and yes, it's only my personal opinion based on my experience).. but in my opinion real life fighting and self-defense holds the exact same body mechanics, ferocity, and unpredictability as you find in NHB matches.
That is my personal experience. Bodies violently collide, fists are swung crazily, and people grab hold of each other punching, kneeing, wrestling, etc.
(yes there are sometimes multiple opponents, yes there are knives, etc. you have to understand and deal with that as well)
But I feel that in order to prepare for the shock and violence of a high level fight, you have to train at least in some way the concepts of NHB.
That means cross-training, sparring with resistent opponents, and doing realistic drills, heavy bag, ground and pound dummies, etc.
That does not mean traditional arts do not work, it just means that I am looking for a very efficient and quick way to defend myself...and I also think technique is nothing without attribute that is why I lift weights, work on endurance (which I need more of) and do push ups, pulls, etc. Speed drills, etc.

Now that the traditionalists are mad at me, it's time to slow the cheers of the NHB enthusiasts and make them mad at me as well :D

I have come to a conclusion about my inner person. I am not a violent person, nor do I like violence. In fact, I am not a very competitive person (except with myself) :) Being an NHB fighter (even a champion) would be a living hell for me. I can't really think of something I'd hate more. Not saying that it is bad, but I am saying that it's just not me. You'll never see me fight in a cage, you'll never see me drop all else just to train fighting my entire life. (I could just buy a gun) NHB fighters are possibly some of the most dedicated trainers I have ever seen. It's amazing to me how much they work, and kill themselves to do what they do. There is nothing wrong with that.
However I know this about myself. I do not like the rather "un-budo" emphasis placed in a lot of NHB environments. Now before you yell, yes I know everyone is an individual, and I can't make generalizations. :) I'm not trying to. However the one thing I have loved more than anything else about martial art is the "philosophy" behind the traditional arts. Whether or not it's really because of martial arts is irrelevant. I really enjoy the bushido aspect of the arts. So much in fact that it really has shaped a great deal of my spiritual and physical life.
I hate the thought of blooding someone up unless I have to, I hate big lights, loud crazy crowds, ring girls just a bit too scanty for me, and a lot of the egoism that I have seen with a lot (but definately not all) NHB people. Now that's a pretty bad statement, so let me be the first to say that I am not calling the people in this sport bad. Not in the least! But I do see some aspects of the sport these days that I don't agree with. :) I'll just leave it at that.

So here's the kicker...
I will continue and hopefully delve deeper into training NHB style as a "self-defense" or maybe even a "traditional art". Don't all throw tomatos at once now :D When I say "traditional" I am not fooling myself. I am not going to make absurd excuses to keep me from testing myself, etc. I will still spar hard with uncooperative opponents (who try to beat me), I will train hard with my physical body (i.e. weight lifting, calistenics, etc) I will continue to practice judo and spar often. I will drill on heavy bags, grappling dummies, etc. I will train ground and pound with friends, range familiarization, etc.

But I want to hold a very "budo" like mentality with my training. I DO want to mix philosophy with my training, and I want to contribute to society, cultivate compassion, empathy, morality, bravery, wisdom, and inner peace. And even though I train with other people quite a bit, I want to really appreciate the feeling of training just by myself...

I have a pretty open mind to things, however I arm myself with reality before I go looking for fantasy. I may dabble in more esoteric things like Ki meditation, etc. But I feel NHB "styled" training is what will really cut it in the real world. At least for me at this day and time.

Well that is my post.
Hope you enjoyed reading it. Send all hate mail to "Ryu_is_only_expressing_himself@hotmail.com" ;)

Take care,
and tell me what you think,

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura1.gif

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

les paul
09-04-2001, 05:11 AM
Put down the grappling magizines and leave the crack pipe alone.

les paul
09-04-2001, 05:15 AM
Hah..... got ya!!!!!

Lighten up and try not to take yourself so serious.

Fish of Fury
09-04-2001, 05:17 AM
"I want to hold a very "budo" like mentality with my training. I DO want to mix philosophy with my training"
"I feel NHB "styled" training is what will really cut it in the real world. At least for me at this day and time."

great, i'm glad you've found a balance of sorts.

i'm the sort of person to whom the "philosophical" side of MA is more important than kicking butt.if you can have an equal balance of both, i'd say you're doing very well.

and now the criticism you insist upon....

"When I say "traditional" I am not fooling myself. I am not going to make absurd excuses to keep me from testing myself, etc"

is your definition of a traditional MArtist someone who makes absurd excuses and fools themselves?

i would have thought that would be more an individual trait, not an attribute of entire styles, let alone all traditional martial arts.

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

Xebsball
09-04-2001, 05:25 AM
Ok, good post. I agree with most of the stuff you said. The un-budo thing is why i chose to train kung fu and not bjj, but i dont hold anything personal against them.

BTW, is your hair like Goku's?

-------------------------
Now renegades are the people with their own philosophies
They change the course of history
Everyday people like you and me
We're the renegades we're the people
With our own philosophies
We change the course of history
Everyday people like you and me

jimmy23
09-04-2001, 05:30 AM
I can see your points . If theres parts of the sport you dont like, I can see that also. The fact that you still want to test yourself is great.

For me, training with good NHB guys is what makes me feel alive. The violence, the agression, the constant need for awareness and vitality in the gym, these are the fuel for my own philosophical development.

Good post, I like you man, you are a serious martial artist, goodluvk in your training.


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

Nexus
09-04-2001, 05:38 AM
I must second spanky on this post and say, 'dont take yourself so seriously.' You say you know things about yourself, as if the 'you' that 'you' supposedly know is not changing. Who you were yesterday and today, tomorrow, before reading this, after reading this, is always in motion.

And as for fighting, it is only an illusion. The illusion is created by the ego and fear. The best fighters are the ones who are relaxed and fierce.

If each moment of a fight was broken up, you would see the illusion. The exchange of energy etc. Although this may not make sense to everyone.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 06:03 AM
Ryu is my not so evil twin! I pretty much have the same outlook as he, with the exception that I like to kill myself in training in order to fight. I am hoping to step back into the ring soon. I have trained in several traditional styles and currently train in CMA, however, my time spent in muay thai ,grappling and this may be a shock to to some of the MMA - karate - really woke me up in a sense. I played football in high school and worked out with the wrestling team - I rolled with them, but had no interest in actually trying out - these also played a role in my "waking up" My time in norris' TSD and at an american karate school was spent doing forms and point sparring. It served as a good foundation, I knew the techs, but when I sparred with friends on the wrestling team and with boxers, I got my arse kicked on more than one occasion. They are used to full contact strikes and colliding bodies. their training makes them grow accustomed to it. I then started training in karate with a japanese friend of mine who spends hours a day training. His karate was like nothing I had seen at the time - he was mobile, used circular motion...it was awesome. He also sparred full contact, which is how we sparred when we trained together. at the same time I was training in grappling. This all wore me out at first, as I was not used to this type of training. I started to break away from traditional methods of training, and spent most of my time sparring and grappling. My japanese friend taught forms - he knows all of the shotokan forms, but only taught the ones he thought drilled certain attributes used in fighting. After that came muay thai. All of these arts made me realize the importance of stamina. The TSD and american karate workouts were extraordinarily simple, and rarely was there a moment that I was winded. Grappling and muay thai had me gasping for breath constantly. When I first started sparring full contact I had to get used to not pulling my strikes. in the meantime, I was getting my head handed to me by people that were used to this type of fighting. that's enough rambling about that...

Now that I'm into CMA, I appreciate the forms training and the drills as they are excellent ways to build strength and stamina. However, I am also fortunate enough to have found a school that does hard sparring and that advocates grappling.

"is your definition of a traditional MArtist someone who makes absurd excuses and fools themselves?"

Not at all. However, it's been my experience that alot of traditional stylists fool themselves. The drills and forms are a necessity, but in my oppinion not enough, as I've stated several times on this forum. Kudos to the traditional stylists that do spar hard contact and grapple. In the street you may go to the ground, you may not. You should be prepared for any situation. If you don't grapple, you fool yourself by saying "If he tries to take me down, I'll just do this" the same goes for grapplers with no standup training. If you have never taken a really hard shot to the jaw, the street is not the place you want to get your first taste of it.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

Grappling-Insanity
09-04-2001, 06:06 AM
Good post!!

Braden
09-04-2001, 06:15 AM
Now... I agree with you argument about training hard and NHB guys being a good example of guys that train hard.

But saying that NHB fights are equivalent to street fights is total crap. In the street, the most important thing is surprise. A 120 lb untrained kid could kick the crap out of Tyson if he got the jump on him. In the ring, the least important thing is surprise. You know EXACTLY who, where, and when. In the street, the second most important thing is how you're doing at the time. Are you stoned, drunk, tired, depressed, stressed out, sick, missed a work out, just finished a work out, etc - don't matter; you'd better be able to defend yourself. In the ring? The exact opposite. People do sequential training all year to build up to that one moment in the ring; they're guaranteed to be at their best. On the streets, there's also another kind of surprise. Tactical surprise. Everyone talks about knives, guns, and multiple opponents. Sure, whatever. But ignoring all that, is your opponent gonna shoot? Is he gonna box you? Does he know what he's doing at all? How can you tell? On the other hand, professional fighters can and do watch every fight their opponent has been in and will know exactly what their strenghts and weaknesses are; each fighter walks in having a pretty good idea of what the other guy is going to try. This changes the whole way you should approach your tactical training. One way is best for the streets, another for professional fighters. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. Everyone these days is talking about "ranges" in fights. Personally, I think the concept is utter bull****. But if you've got that mentality, then I think it's clear that the real deciding factor in the fight is during range _transitions_. That's where the juice is. That's where two otherwise well-matched fighters will win or lose against each other. Now, keep this in mind: in the ring, you start at opposite ends of a designated fighting space; you know exactly what the nature of the transition of ranges is going to be. On the street, you can pretty much assume someone is going to be literally on top of you by the time you know you're in a fight. The nature of range transition is fundamentally different in these two cases. If you believe that this is the deciding factor in a fight like I do, or even if you just think it's important, you've got to realize that you'll want to train with this in mind - and that there's going to be differences in that training depending on which of the above cases you're training for. Shall I go on?

Am I slagging NHB fight or NHB fighters? Hell no! Those guys train their asses off and are scary, scary mofos. On a related note, NHB-style fighting is clearly an excellent training tool. It's strengths are how it provides you with skilled, honestly resisting opponents against which you can test your stuff. Clearly a vitally important part of obtaining martial skill for self-defense purposes. Are NHB-style fights and self-defense situations the same in terms of the qualities you mentioned in your post? Hell no! See above. Does that mean you should train differently depending on which one you are emphasizing? Assuming you believe you fight like you train, it clearly follows: yes. To reiterate: Am I saying NHB guys can't fight on the streets? No. Am I saying NHB fighting is of negligible value for self-defense? No.

There's some really important distinctions to make though.

P.S. The popular line of 'traditional styles are for building character and honoring ancestors' is utter crap and insulting to anyone following a legitimate martial tradition. Unfortunately, you hear it repeated mindlessly both by proponents of and opponents of the traditional arts. If someone wants to build character, all they have to do is stop being such a brat. Or try some volunteer work if they really want to.

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 06:21 AM
"I must second spanky on this post and say, 'dont take yourself so seriously.' You say you know things about yourself, as if the 'you' that 'you' supposedly know is not changing. Who you were yesterday and today, tomorrow, before reading this, after reading this, is always in motion."

He takes his training seriously, ans these appear to conclusions he has made on what he feels are the best training methods for himself at his time. Most MA should be as serious about their training. He's in a constant state of evaluation. This is not the first time he has posted his thoughts on training, and most likely will not be the last. His thoughts on training may change later as his training and aging lead him in different directions.


"And as for fighting, it is only an illusion. The illusion is created by the ego and fear. The best fighters are the ones who are relaxed and fierce."

Knowledge of how to use fear is a major factor in what makes you fierce on the street. training is what makes you relaxed. The people that do not know how to use their fear freeze. You may be a ferocious as a tiger in class, but on the street, facing someone you don't know, or a weapon, or multiple attackers, the most ferocious in class will become as meek as rabbits if they can't properly use fear to their advantage.

"If each moment of a fight was broken up, you would see the illusion. The exchange of energy etc. Although this may not make sense to everyone."

WTF?? the problem I see with this is the "little big word" IF. The thing is, you can't do that until after the fight is over. you can see a lot of things after the fact. hind sight is 20/20.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

Braden
09-04-2001, 06:26 AM
The main problem here is that you guys clearly have no idea what a traditional style is.

"That means cross-training, sparring with resistent opponents, and doing realistic drills, heavy bag, ground and pound dummies, etc."

Since when do traditional stylists NOT do this? Those are all pretty basic requirements for any program intended to develop martial skill.

Do you honestly think in the millenia of human existance no one has thought until now to train against a resisting opponent? Do you honestly think that this is a ground-breaking, novel idea? Please. Use your head.

The problem is people are comparing bad traditionalists with good modern eclectics. You know what? There's a whole crap load of BAD modern eclectics too, out there teaching absolute smut. Why don't you hear about them in these discussions? Because it's not conveniant for your argument. The bottom line is, there are great teachers and awful teachers, and everywhere in between. Most teachers are awful. This is pretty much true regardless of what approach to martial training you're talking about: old vs. new, east vs. west, grappling vs. striking, whatever.

The saving grace that the modern eclectics have, and the reason I would send a friend to a modern electic school over a traditional one if I had no idea about their respective qualities, and the reason I would rather have a bad M.E. practitioner watching my ass than a bad traditionalist, or a M.E. over a traditionalist from random samplings where I didn't know their skill (etc etc etc)... the saving grace they have is that they're founded on the idea of getting conditioned and doing some amount of kicking the crap out of each other. No matter what smut you're teaching and how dumb the student is, he's bound to learn something in that environment, or at least get in better shape than someone without the training. Whereas the bad traditionalists are just bad and don't even have this going for them.

But that's an entirely different argument than comparing legitimate practitioners from each perspective - in which case, the 'argument' is simple - good skill is good skill, period.

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 06:36 AM
"But saying that NHB fights are equivalent to street fights is total crap."

Where did he say that? he said:

"but in my opinion real life fighting and self-defense holds the exact same body mechanics, ferocity, and unpredictability as you find in NHB matches.
That is my personal experience. Bodies violently collide, fists are swung crazily, and people grab hold of each other punching, kneeing, wrestling, etc.
(yes there are sometimes multiple opponents, yes there are knives, etc. you have to understand and deal with that as well)
But I feel that in order to prepare for the shock and violence of a high level fight, you have to train at least in some way the concepts of NHB."

He is saying that NHB training can help you with a lot of the things you encounter in a street altercation. That's different. For example, what is going to help you more in an altercation, training forms everyday - no contact, little variation, no opponent, deep stances, a chambered hand as opposed to having your guard up, etc. or several rounds of NHB training where you have a resisting opponent, hard contact, grappling, etc.?

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

Braden
09-04-2001, 06:42 AM
"real life fighting and self-defense holds the exact same body mechanics, ferocity, and unpredictability as you find in NHB matches."

I addressed unpredictability fairly thoroughly in my post. I addressed body mechanics indirectly in the sense that I discussed how the ideal tactical training for both should vary, and your body mechanics should form the foundation for your tactical training. That's two out of the three qualities he said were the same, and I argued were different. I can post an argument for ferocity too if you'd like.

Your post was another great example of complete ignorance of traditional styles though. Doing forms all day is NOT traditional training methodology. Chambered-at-the-hip punches aren't taught in any good traditional system I've had exposure too. Same deal with guard stances. In bagua, xingyi, and taiji the basic stances are as close to a boxer's guard as the basic muay thai stance is.

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 06:53 AM
I recently posted about a suck a§§ school that used to send people to participate in our class and then go back to their school and show them what they saw. This school also taught NHB fighting, and they absolutely sucked. They are still on the butt end of many jokes because of something that happened at a recent NHB tourney here - they stepped in there talking noise about how good they were and how much butt they would kick and that nobody there stood a chance against them - hillariously, all of them lost their fights. There is definitely bad NHB out there, I agree with you on that.

"That means cross-training, sparring with resistent opponents, and doing realistic drills, heavy bag, ground and pound dummies, etc."

'Since when do traditional stylists NOT do this? Those are all pretty basic requirements for any program intended to develop martial skill.'

As we have read on this forum, many of the traditional stylists here do not spar. Also there are many that only light contact spar, and this is not just CMA, some kenpo guys said the same. light contact sparring is done with a resisting opponent true enough, but the extent is not as extreme as it is with full contact. Also, an opponent may resist in drills, but it is after all a drill. You may resist my chin na lock, or not let me take you down, but you don't strike back either.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

Mr. Nemo
09-04-2001, 06:54 AM
"But I feel that in order to prepare for the shock and violence of a high level fight, you have to train at least in some way the concepts of NHB.
That means cross-training, sparring with resistent opponents, and doing realistic drills, heavy bag, ground and pound dummies, etc."

When you say cross-training, do you mean in several different styles, or preparing for all different ranges of combat?

If you do a traditional style (just for the hell of it, let's say....bagua) there's nothing preventing you from sparring with a live opponent, or doing live drills, or any of that. In fact, if you want to develop real fighting ability, it's a must. I always get a little irritated when people refer to live sparring as "modern" training. No, it's been around for a while. I'd call it "smart" training.

SifuAbel
09-04-2001, 06:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As we have read on this forum, many of the traditional stylists here do not spar. [/quote]

Really?!?!? I must of missed that one. I spar. Which of you out there don't spar?


Don't bust your hands patting yourselves on the back guys.

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 07:00 AM
"Your post was another great example of complete ignorance of traditional styles though. Doing forms all day is NOT traditional training methodology. Chambered-at-the-hip punches aren't taught in any good traditional system I've had exposure too."

The forms training was an example of one aspect of the training, as was full contact sparring in NHB. they do alot more than simply spar. As for the chambering, I have never seen a traditional style that does not teach this, however I admittedly have limited experience with internal styles like bagua. Look at shaolin forms and karate katas. TKD, TSD, and so forth. I'll use taikyoku shodan as an example. Look left, CHAMBER for a low block, step into a left forward stance while executing the low block and CHAMBERING the other hand. forms are full of instances like this. Maybe my experience with traditional styles it not what should be in question... the schools I have had experience with do not chamber while sparring and workinhg "fighting techniques" but do otherwise. Look at one step and three step sparring in TKD - chambering everywhere - at least in all of the TKD that I have seen.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

Braden
09-04-2001, 07:01 AM
SevenStar - Don't take my comments personally. They're intended to clarify my argument, rather than actually being directed at you. :)

As for the guys here who don't spar. Well, let's face it. I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the actual kungfu practitioners who post on this board. KFO is great for passing boring 5 minute intervals at work, but it's certainly not a prime choice for being a source of kungfu talent.

As for your sucky NHB school situation, good for calling them out. We've got a number of schools like that up here as well. But that's just my point. Most of everybody is crappy. The good guys, they're rare, but you can find them in every 'martial walk' of life.

Braden
09-04-2001, 07:02 AM
BTW - if I wanted to argue that ferocity is way different in NHB-style fights than on the streets, I'd cite all those BJJ matches that last multiple hours. Now that's some pretty ****ing testimony. :)

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 07:03 AM
"Really?!?!? I must of missed that one. I spar. Which of you out there don't spar?"

check the posts man, you'll find it. I'll try to find a few of them and post links. One in particular you can search for was a guy named kenpomon who was wondering if he should switch styles or cross train because his teacher said that sparring did not adequately teach you how to fight.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 07:10 AM
"BTW - if I wanted to argue that ferocity is way different in NHB-style fights than on the streets, I'd cite all those BJJ matches that last multiple hours. Now that's some pretty ****ing testimony."

LMAO!! I'll give you that, but I'm not talking about pure BJJ. I'm talking about MMA, boxing, etc. This is something else That I have seen and that has been talked about elsewhere on this forum, perhaps under some of the fear threads. I have seen several traditional stylists get waxed on the street because either 1. they froze or 2. they were not as aggressive as their opponent and couldn't land anything decent. I know this does not apply to all traditional styles - hel1, I train in one - but from WHAT I HAVE SEEN (note, this all imlies personal experience, and does not include ALL traditional schools and styles) many stylists lack that agression. I don't attribute this to the style itself, but possibly some of the training methods, such as light contact and point sparring.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

Braden
09-04-2001, 07:13 AM
I know what you mean about chambering. But it's like I've been saying all along - most of everything is crap. Most "traditional" schools are crap. That's a pretty good example of definite crap.

I honestly think somewhere along the lines people confused pulling and takedown techniques as chambered punches, and by happenstance, the flawed teaching spread like wildfire. A martial historian could get pretty specific as to when, where, and why this happened. But I don't wanna style-bash, so I'll just throw it out there.

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 07:15 AM
As for what you quoted though -

"But I feel that in order to prepare for the shock and violence of a high level fight, you have to train at least in some way the concepts of NHB.
That means cross-training, sparring with resistent opponents, and doing realistic drills, heavy bag, ground and pound dummies, etc."

that was ryu's post. But from seeing several posts by him, I assume he means different ranges.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

Braden
09-04-2001, 07:17 AM
In my experience, both aggression and freezing problems spring directly from not sparring enough.

SifuAbel
09-04-2001, 07:19 AM
NHB, a streetfight? Not quite. Not taking away from the fighters. BUT. In a street fight you have about 15 seconds to get the heck out of the way of the flying beer bottles and the "chick-chick" of somebodies 9mm. Nobody fights fair on the street. Nobody waits for the opening bell. Nobody tells their friends "hey, don't jump in if I'm in trouble". Nobody gets to tap out. Nobody puts their weapons aside with the barkeep. Nobody goes away without the last hit. And if you do tap him out, he isn't going to just go home. He will return with more force, more friends, or both. One on one on the street is very rare. Troublemakers always have a group. I've seen big guys melt and totally punk out at the first sign of a confrontation. If anyone here is going to talk about a street fight then please, talk from the scene not from the dream.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 07:20 AM
"I honestly think somewhere along the lines people confused pulling and takedown techniques as chambered punches, and by happenstance, the flawed teaching spread like wildfire."

I definitely agree there. I fell into this category. I was taught that they were chambered punches. It was the japanese friend i referred to that showed me that they were actually breaks, takedowns, etc. My current sifu also shows us the takedowns, locks etc. that appear to be chambers. I was stunned when I first started seeing all of this as I just never knew.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 07:23 AM
"In my experience, both aggression and freezing problems spring directly from not sparring enough."

Yeah, that's what I've been saying. that and point sparring. When you do all that point sparring, then experience a full contact hit, the whole game changes. The first time I experienced it, it's like I forgot every techique I had ever learned. I was lost. I'm used to dealing with it now however, and don't have that problem.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 07:25 AM
Abel, he never said NHB was like a street fight, nor did anyone else. He compared how much of the NHB training is extremely beneficial in a fight, which it undoubtedly is.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

Ryu
09-04-2001, 07:41 AM
Wow!
This got a lot of responses quickly!

The discussion here is really a great one, and I'm actually kinda sorry I missed out on it until now. First off, SevenStar, thank you for defending my post, and adding your knowledge to it. :)
Braden, thank you also for your input here because I can definately see your point about some of the "unskilled" people claiming to teach NHB out there. There are many "street/NHB" styled systems popping up that do absolutely terrible when put to the test. To not mention that is wrong on my part, and that's the very thing I do not wish to become.
You may very well be right that some of the "traditional" styles used to be (and still are) practiced with the same mentality of NHB fighters. I think that mentality will make anyone good as a fighter. Like SevenStar, however, it has been my experience that I have not seen many "traditional" stylists who fit into that mentality. But I really hate to use these terms anyway because you can't really get away from stereotypes. No offense to you at all, I really enjoyed what you said. :)
I do hold to the notion that NHB really does give a kinesthetic feel of what it's like to be in a fight. However, to be honest with you, because of my nature, I am not looking to "NHB fight" often LOL. I want to learn what works (and that can change) but I do not like fighting. There's a dilemna.
I think that it would be hard to argue, however, that "traditional" (I'm starting to hate that word :) ) styles do in fact train like NHB artists. If that was the case, the NHB "style" of fighting would not be a new phenomenum.
However, I fear (respect) someone who is good at their style regardless what it is, and try to hold a humble attitude as much as I can. :(
I remember the last challenge match I had with a good boxer/streetfighter, and even though I won, I had to respect the guy's power and strength even on the ground or else I myself might have gotten choked out. You can never tell who is tough and who is not because of "style"...definately can't get cocky about that stuff.

To answer some more q's.
My self-evaluation and training evaluation is a constant evolution. :) I used to see that as an annoyance...but now I think I'm realizing the nice journey that really is.

And, Yes I was talking about ranges in fighting, not necessarily multiple "style" training.

SevenStar, again thanks for the great insights here! You're definately an example of someone of a "traditional" lineage that I'd be afraid to go up against! LOL ;)

To everyone else, please feel free to continue this conversation. I feel it will be a good one.
"traditionalists" (there's that word again) and "NHB" people have been arguing for years...
Who says they can't get along and learn from each other?

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura1.gif

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

SifuAbel
09-04-2001, 07:43 AM
No, I beleive it was braden who did, and so be it. Disprove it otherwise. This thread makes it sound like all other than nhb systems are for mirror gazing. I've done absolutely everything ryu has described IN a "traditional" art. You really should look around you before you make such sweeping statements. There is no magic bullet in kung fu; It's all hard work. Man , I must be the exception to the rule if all CMA people are just dancers. It amazing how people continue to ass-u-me things about CMA that just are not true, at least not true for everyone, without any real first hand knowledge. The only thing that "****ed me off" about this thread is the outright ignorance of it all

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Braden
09-04-2001, 07:48 AM
"If that was the case, the NHB 'style' of fighting would not be a new phenomenum."

You're definitely going to have to elaborate on this. As I can't see any possible way this statement could be true. And it being false invalidates the rest of your argument.

Braden
09-04-2001, 07:49 AM
Eh? What did I do now?

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 07:50 AM
If I understood that post correctly, Braden didn't say it. He incorrectly paraphrased Ryu. Also, Nobody said NHB was the be all end all. You can do all of the things he stated in a traditional style. If I wasn't satisfied with that aspsect of CMA I would have quit already. However, many schools (once again, THAT I HAVE SEEN, and also, apparently as Braden has seen) do not utilize all, if any of the methods ryu described. That whole post was nothing more than WHAT HE FEELS about his training, and what works for him. He never downed traditional styles, not did anyone else.

"I have come to somewhat of a conclusion about myself and my training. LOL, and I'm not sure if NHB fighters or traditionalists alike will like the idea. Though I am always one to say exactly what's on my mind, regardless."

Reading is fundamental dude...

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

SifuAbel
09-04-2001, 07:52 AM
I agree, it isn't a new phenom' it's a new venue. NHB as a concept has been around forever. It wasn't invented on Pay per view.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Braden
09-04-2001, 07:53 AM
Cutting and pasting from an old post of mine, as I don't see how I "misphrased" anything.

>>>
Ryu: real life fighting and self-defense holds the exact same body mechanics, ferocity, and unpredictability as you find in NHB matches.

Braden: I addressed unpredictability fairly thoroughly in my post. I addressed body mechanics indirectly in the sense that I discussed how the ideal tactical training for both should vary, and your body mechanics should form the foundation for your tactical training. That's two out of the three qualities he said were the same, and I argued were different. I can post an argument for ferocity too if you'd like.
>>>

Ed's note: I ended up addressing ferocity too later on in the thread. That's three for three. Please show me where I 'misphrased.'

Oh yeah, that Ryu part is a direct quote, not a paraphrase.

SifuAbel
09-04-2001, 07:55 AM
So there :p

Go twist your nipple, not our words.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Ryu
09-04-2001, 07:55 AM
SifuAbel,

In all honesty, I was not trying to "stereotype" NHB as being the end all. All I was saying is that for me, I personally think the method is what will work for me. And heck, that can change as well. I did not mean (nor do I think) that you cannot fight in your chosen system, or that you do not work hard, or do not have experience.
When have I ever been the one to say that anyway? :)
I am always trying to objectively look at my training. I know that I have experience, but I also know I am no NHB fighter. I am not claiming that "traditional" styles do not work if trained with the proper mentality. Please do not misunderstand.

However, please write down your thoughts here as I do want to hear your opinion.

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura1.gif

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 07:58 AM
Braden, to me, that says that a street fight and NHB fighting share several similarities. Nowhere did he say that an NHB is exactly like a streetfight.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

SifuAbel
09-04-2001, 07:58 AM
You may not have been trying, but you sure did succeed.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Ryu
09-04-2001, 08:02 AM
What I meant by that phrase is that the style of NHB being a way of "fighting all out in all ranges" or even sparring all out in all ranges does NOT seem to be what a lot of martial art schools had been doing in the past years. That is what I meant by a new "phenomenum". Now, I do want to clarify however, that I do not know all martial arts schools, so I cannot make a general claim like that. But I think it's safe to say that streamline martial arts before NHB did not delve into this new philosophy that much.
If they did I did not see it. That doesn't mean they were not, but I personally did not see it, and now I am seeing it much more.

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura1.gif

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Ryu
09-04-2001, 08:04 AM
Well if that is what you got from it I can't really do much except offer you an apology. I did not mean that. I was getting my thoughts out on my personal training in the martial arts.

I am not insulting styles here.


Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura1.gif

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Braden
09-04-2001, 08:05 AM
"Braden, to me, that says that a street fight and NHB fighting share several similarities."

Yes, and he explicitly listed three things which he felt were such similarities. And I replied by arguing that those specific three things were in fact dramatically different in the two cases. Where's the confusion?

Braden
09-04-2001, 08:08 AM
NHB = fighting all out in all ranges?

Well, 'fighting all out' certainly isn't a new invention. However, the idea that fights have distinct 'ranges' certainly is. Traditionally, there was just fighting, so by definition it was 'in all ranges.' Therefore, NHB as you defined it, is not a new thing.

SifuAbel
09-04-2001, 08:10 AM
You mean mainstream, not streamlined.(stop smoking that stuff, it'll rot your brain)
And yes I will give you that. Some,I did say some, schools are family oriented and are not fighting for realism. I cannot deny this as fact. But your post IMHO is too general and misleading.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 08:12 AM
"I think that it would be hard to argue, however, that "traditional" (I'm starting to hate that word ) styles do in fact train like NHB artists. If that was the case, the NHB "style" of fighting would not be a new phenomenum."

In the sense he's referring to, it is somewhat of a new phenomenon. Yes Abel, you spar. That's fine and dandy. Not all schools participate in realistic sparring, I have first hand experience with that. Not all styles do bagwork, grappling, etc. You have to realize that while back in the day all traditional styles may have trained full contact, super intensity, not all schools nowadays do. NHB schools train that way because they have to. You can't compete at that level without the intense training. The same goes for muay thai, boxing, san shou etc. Many of the traditional schools we refer to may compete in tourneys, but of course do not compete at the level of even an amateur thai fighter. Consequently, this type of training is becoming more popularized with the spread of NHB. Look at the schools in your area. Are they starting to teach grappling, kickboxing, etc? the schools here are. They have grapplers, kickboxers, etc. teach additional classes so that students interested can also train in these styles. these styles train to fight for extended periods of time becuase it is very realistic that ( a boxing match, for example) may go 12 rounds. traditional stylists do not have that concern. Their concern is ending a fight a quickly as possible, meaning that it's not necessary to spar 8 - 12 rounds, or lift weights, do roadwork, etc.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

Ryu
09-04-2001, 08:13 AM
Braden,
That may be true. But did most martial arts schools spar this way or did they keep to a certain form? Did they kick, punch and elbow, clinch with a throw and follow to the ground?

From the schools I saw, that was not the curriculum in sparring. Usually they'd stay to there one "range" (forgive me) and not bother with anything else.

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura1.gif

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 08:15 AM
the confusion came when abel said this:

"NHB, a streetfight? Not quite. Not taking away from the fighters. BUT. In a street fight you have about 15 seconds to get the heck out of the way of the flying beer bottles and the "chick-chick" of somebodies 9mm. Nobody fights fair on the street. Nobody waits for the opening bell. Nobody tells their friends "hey, don't jump in if I'm in trouble". Nobody gets to tap out. Nobody puts their weapons aside with the barkeep. Nobody goes away without the last hit. And if you do tap him out, he isn't going to just go home. He will return with more force, more friends, or both. One on one on the street is very rare. Troublemakers always have a group. I've seen big guys melt and totally punk out at the first sign of a confrontation. If anyone here is going to talk about a street fight then please, talk from the scene not from the dream."

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

SifuAbel
09-04-2001, 08:16 AM
There is no confusion. The above is the truth. Disprove it. go ahead.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

SifuAbel
09-04-2001, 08:18 AM
The above is the comparison of ferocity. Have you actually been in a streetfight in your entire life?

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Ryu
09-04-2001, 08:18 AM
SifuAbel, Mainstream...thank you. haha. ;)


Well I am sorry you feel that way about my post, but you must admit that your opinion is also subjective since there are many other posters here who were not offended.
But I will make one last apology if you (or anyone else for that matter) finds this post too general. It's hard not to be general at times in the martial arts world :(
I did my best not to be.

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura1.gif

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Ryu
09-04-2001, 08:20 AM
SifuAbel,

"have you ever been in a streetfight your entire life?"

...were you asking me? :o
Yes, plenty.

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura1.gif

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 08:24 AM
TO HIM. the bottom line and the whole point of his post is how HE feels about HIS training. When this thread is long gone, he will still feel the same way. In HIS eyes, NHB style training mixed with some traditional training is the way to go. Consequently, his post can't be overly misleading and general. You say that some schools are family oriented. That's your oppinion based on your experience. Someone else may say that what you said is wrong because the area they are in and the MA schools THEY have dealt with are all family oriented. Does that make your perception wrong? Not at all. Such posts are all based on personal experience.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

SifuAbel
09-04-2001, 08:24 AM
"You have offende my famiwee and you have offende the shaaaaaowin tempo."

I'm not "offended" by this. This is a discussion. That's why they call it a "forum".

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Ryu
09-04-2001, 08:28 AM
Glad to hear it.

Well guys, it's 1:30 am here and I have college courses tomorrow, so I'm afraid I'm going to have to bow out. This has been one of my most controversial posts :o

But the discussion was definitely a good one.
SevenStar, Braden, SifuAbel, thanks for all your input and opinions. :)

Goodnight.
(better get outta here before the tomatos start coming in from Abel ;) haha JK, Abel)

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura1.gif

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 08:31 AM
Nah, he was talking to me, and the answer is yes, plenty, from one on one to multiple attackers. (I've even had someone try to chase me down on a BMX! LOL his shoe was untied, and when I sidestepped and yanked him off of it, his shoelace got twisted up in the pedals so he couldn't run when he tried)

And I agree with your post. However, you made it seem like someone said that NHB is the same as a streetfight, and that was never said. the training can help immensely - full contact, grappling, etc. as these play a significant role in a fight. What about that don't you get? Do you not agree that you need to know how to grapple? If not, I hope you never get taken down on the street. Do you not agree that full contact fighting is helpful on the street? If you agree that these are helpful, then we see eye to eye on that.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

Badger
09-04-2001, 03:46 PM
Well the way I see it is:

Traditional arts(Karate,Kungfu,Jiujitsu) were originally trained NHB.Mcdojos(schools that give away belts,sorry training) are far from being traditional.
Not all storefront schools are Mcdojos,even BJJ/NHB/MMA are taught somewhere and instuctors do have to be paid for their time(and rent,electricity,etc.)

Badger

MaFuYee
09-04-2001, 04:44 PM
WHAAAAATT?!?!?! - you don't like the scantily clad ring girls?!?! :o

- The learning curve is now a spin cycle.

Ralek
09-04-2001, 05:03 PM
SifuAbel. You talked about what fights are like on the street. Ok. That's true. The fights will be brutal.

What is going to better prepare you for these brutal fights? Doing forms and throwing techniques into the air? Or fighting and learning how to fight in NHB?

There are multiple opponents. Do you think learning kung fu stances and throwing kung fu claws into the air is going to help with this situation?

Will the dead drills of one step sparring in kung fu make you ready to dodge the flying beer bottle?

Kung fu does not give you fighting skills. It also does not prepare you for the brutality and unpredictability of the street.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Ralek
09-04-2001, 05:06 PM
SifuAbel. You said that people will come after you for revenge with friends? Let's say they do. Do you use special techniques in kung fu that leave your defeated opponent with a good attitude? What moves do you do in kung fu that will make people not try and get revenge with friends?

You need to protect yourself in the moment. If you have to break their arm then you break it. Of course you don't let them tap out if it's a serious situation. You break their arm or put them out with a choke.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Badger
09-04-2001, 05:34 PM
Ralek-
Are you going to choke out a bullet?

Using your head is better than any"styles" in a self-defense situation.Use your head not to get into street fights. Of course I'm wasting my time trying to tell you anything.


Badger



Badger
09-04-2001, 05:59 PM
The Machado Philosophy:
We respect everyone and every style of martial arts.We share what we know and are open to new ideas.Martial arts is not about
fighting,but about lifestyle.Harmony is our goal,hard training is our way...

shinbushi
09-04-2001, 06:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ryu
I think that it would be hard to argue, however, that "traditional" (I'm starting to hate that word ) styles do in fact train like NHB artists. If that were the case, the NHB "style" of fighting would not be a new phenomenon. [/quote]

It is not that NHB "style" of fighting is or was not around it is that the vast majority of schools in the US are Mcdojo. From owning a school (full time almost a year now :D) most people don’t want to feel pain, get bruises or injuries. Some don’t even like physical contact. The average Joe blow will sue if he gets a bad sprain or bone fracture. Look at the backlash that the UFCs got when they were on cable. In the 70’s and 80’s people started to water down training to make it mass market appeal. (In my style, there is a well-know instructor who broke off and created his own style just to do this) So now that is what everyone thinks of as MA. There are few schools that are hard-core fewer still that are professional schools. Many schools that train NHB "style” don’t like the idea of spectator matches. MA should be for fighters not some beer-belly slob. Many fight in their little unadorned dojos and if they are really good invite other style to come and fight with them so everyone’s training improves.

Ralek
09-04-2001, 07:20 PM
Badger. I'm well aware that BJJ or NHB will not make protect you against guns, multiple opponents, ect.

SifuAble is the one who seems to not be aware of this. His reasoning for saying NHB is not realistic was to say that real fights have weapons and multiple opponents. So i asked him how the kung fu training will better prepare someone for these situations over NHB when kung fu trains far more unrealistic than NHB.

I just don't see how forms and dead drills will prepare you for all the sucker punches, knives, guns, multiple opponents. Kung fu claims to be for multiple opponents. How can kung fu beat multiple people and kives when they can't even beat one person?

NHB doesn't claim to be able to defeat multiple people/knifes/guns/ect. However NHB has knocked out the kung fu guys who claim to be street lethal multiple opponent fighting machines. If the kung fu guys can't even take on one person in a fight with rules then how will they beat multiple people?

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 07:22 PM
that's exactly what we are talking about. You won't find these people in NHB schools, becuase that is not the type of training they desire. These are the schools that ryu and I are alluding to. From my experience, there are many traditional schools that are not hardcore, however we do realize that there are some that are.

http://www.xtremetaekwondo.com/bbc.asp

this page is about a "black belt club" that you can join when you get a green belt at the school. You are in the club for 24 months - when you receive your black belt. It's like a club to help you train for your black belt. This school also has kids classes that are 30 minutes long. What are you going to learn in 30 mins? the adult classes are an hour, which is about standard from my experience. they sell temporary tattoos of the school logo, and members of the black belt club get special patches. schools like these are what we are referring to. Admittedly, I have never seen on this cheesy, but have seen several that are along the same lines. far too many unfortunately

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

Ralek
09-04-2001, 07:25 PM
SifuAble. You said that street fighting is brutal/multiple opponenets/weapons/ect.

This reasoning makes kung fu a very bad idea to use in the street. The impractical techinques and stances will get you killed. You would be better off running away in dangerous situations like this.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

apoweyn
09-04-2001, 07:28 PM
Ryu,

I haven't read this whole thread (yet). But I wanted to tell you that this is one of the best things I've ever read on this forum.


Stuart B.

Ralek
09-04-2001, 07:31 PM
If kung fu is so good then why do they do such impractical training? How can impractical training be good for the dangerous street?

BJJ/NHB/muy thai/boxing/ect. All have practical training. These arts will not enable you to take out 5 people and use chi power to dodge bullets. But kung fu can't do that stuff either. So train in the stuff that gives you actual fighting skills. No art gives you the tools to deal with multiple opponets and an angry army of beer bottle weilders. To deal with those situations you need a gun.

But there are some arts that give you fighting skills (BJJ/boxing/muythai) and some arts that are just forms practice, drills, and techniques thrown into thin air (kung fu)

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 07:32 PM
You made one good point Rolls:

"You need to protect yourself in the moment. If you have to break their arm then you break it. Of course you don't let them tap out if it's a serious situation. You break their arm or put them out with a choke."

However, the others suck, especially the most recent. There is far more to CMA training than that, and I know you are aware of this. the problem comes in when schools don't train in the other methods (the types of schools ryu and I referred to) but still think they are extremely capable of defending themselves on the street

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

Ralek
09-04-2001, 07:39 PM
My posts will be deleted once Rengade Monk sees them. So look at them fast.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

apoweyn
09-04-2001, 07:48 PM
For the love of... It's muAy thai, Josh. It's not Spanish for very thai.

[end editorial tantrum]

Ralek
09-04-2001, 07:55 PM
ap Oweyn. I couldn't help but notice that you live in maryland. Do you want to fight in a challenge match? I'm not mad at you. I just want to fight someone. I havn't had a chance to fight in a long time. I can't start threads because of the moderators. So do you want to fight a challenge match?

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

apoweyn
09-04-2001, 07:57 PM
Josh,

Perhaps, yeah. I'm not angry with you either, but the thought has crossed my mind before. I'll tell you right now that I'm not much of a fighter, but I could certainly use the experience.

I'm not a kung fu stylist though.


Stuart B.

Ralek
09-04-2001, 08:04 PM
Auwsome. It's nice to see another person who wants to fight. I don't care that you don't do kung fu. When do you want to fight?

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

apoweyn
09-04-2001, 08:10 PM
I don't know, Josh. I'm not trying to prove anything. Just need the training. Could stand to get in much better shape before taking on any challenge matches.

So you know, I'm only even considering this because I had lunch with Shaolin Tiger recently and he was saying that you're not a half bad guy in real life.

Shocking, I know.


Stuart B.

Badger
09-04-2001, 08:15 PM
Ralek-
What will you do if you ever have to fight on a bed of nails vs. rabid dobermans with bees shooting out of their mouths.

BTW-Where are you training?

Badger

µ

The Machado Philosophy:
We respect everyone and every style of martial arts.We share what we know and are open to new ideas.Martial arts is not about
fighting,but about lifestyle.Harmony is our goal,hard training is our way..

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 08:29 PM
he's probably not a half bad guy in real life because he's scared to act the way he acts on the internet - a place where people can't get to him.

Out of curiosity, why did you change your handle Stuart?

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

HuangKaiVun
09-04-2001, 08:31 PM
Probably not a half bad guy - probably a WHOLE bad guy.

apoweyn
09-04-2001, 08:32 PM
SevenStar,

I suspect you're right. That's the shame of it, to my mind. By all accounts, Josh is okay. So I've never been able to reconcile his online persona. Seems a waste to me.

Anyway, I just changed the spelling of my handle. In retrospect, I'm not sure why I'd spelled it the other way in the first place. The way it's spelled now is how it's supposed to appear. It's my surname in old Welsh. "ap" is "son of."

I'm just that bored at work today. :)


Stuart B.

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 08:34 PM
cool. I had been wondering what it meant.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

apoweyn
09-04-2001, 08:37 PM
Cheers SevenStar.

I'm the only man in the world with two celtic names, neither one meaning "the warrior."

My father's name is Mervyn and my cousin's is Miles. Both odd names by American standards (they're British). But both mean "the warrior."

My name, on the other hand, Stuart means caretaker of pigs. "Sty ward" becomes "Stuart."

Oh, the pageantry. [insert sarcasm here]


Stuart B.

Badger
09-04-2001, 09:38 PM
Did your parents ever say your room looks like a "pig sty"?


Badger

The Machado Philosophy:
We respect everyone and every style of martial arts.We share what we know and are open to new ideas.Martial arts is not about
fighting,but about lifestyle.Harmony is our goal,hard training is our way..

Theogenes
09-04-2001, 09:48 PM
Ya know, Ralek actually did make a few good points there. I mean, what makes kung fu any more effective than NHB at dealing with situations involving guns, knives, gangs, ect? My BJJ instructor has training in many different arts, including Judo, Karate, Wing Chung, and TSD. But if someone comes up behind him and shoots him, NONE of those arts are going to help.

apoweyn
09-04-2001, 09:56 PM
Badger,

Yep. It still is, in truth. But I don't live at home anymore, so I get to keep that information under wraps. ;)


Stuart B.

apoweyn
09-04-2001, 09:57 PM
Theogenes,

Ralek makes quite a few good points. Just gotta wade through some nonsense to get to them.


Stuart B.

Braden
09-04-2001, 09:59 PM
If anyone wants to reiterate Ralek's good comments, I can try to reply to them. Of course I may very well agree with them. But either way, I skip right over all of his posts, so as not to waste my time reading things which are generally constructed only to irritate.

Guns are a red herring; useless argument. Knives are more a 'be wary of grappling' issue. Multiple opponents are something that so few properly train for, regardless of 'martial walk.'

SifuAbel
09-04-2001, 10:09 PM
That's exactlty right. My arguement all along was that ryu presented NHB as the only system you could follow in order to defend oneself. In his original post he was generalizing that ALL traditional arts didn't have what it takes to do the job. There are crappy nhb schools just like there are crappy kung fu schools, welcome to america. I know most of you don't have the time to read all 80 posts, but these questions have already been proposed and answered. You can read into them what you want, and apparently most of you have.

It's not the kung fu that makes one streetsmart, it's the practitioner. To say that NHB alone makes you ready for a confrontation on the street is not correct. No MA can prepare you for the sound a .45 makes. For that you need to go to the gun range. No MA can teach what it is like to be in a crowded bar, you have to go to the bar.


Many people made points defending one or the other mentality. Neither is grasping the what the other is saying. Even ralek came up with a few notable points; intermingled of course with the regular BS we all know him for. I'm not going to fall into the ralek trap by discussing stupid assumptions and half truths. Ralek you are a child.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

apoweyn
09-04-2001, 10:12 PM
Despite the fact that he said "That does not mean traditional arts do not work" and that this post represented his view based on his experience and nothing more.

Please.

SifuAbel
09-04-2001, 10:17 PM
yes despite that. It's very convienient to pick one line that serves as a blanket statement, then have the entire context of the message go the other way.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

ShaolinTiger00
09-04-2001, 10:17 PM
How is this for ironic...

I've had a friend whom has studied muay thai and Bjj for several years. When we got together we almost always worked on the standup game and I never had any interest in BJJ whatsoever. ( In my own ignorance I assumed that my throwing and takedowns would work just fine against grappling.)

After meeting Josh I became very intrigued about BJJ and called up my friend who is now a blue belt. He was more than happy to share his knowledge with me and add my throwing skills to his repitoire. After just a few months of "rolling" I can't believe how great it is. I'm really hooked. I have even made him tap now! Adding this to my standup art has brought a whole realm of useful techniques that I had no idea about. Pretty funny that I began to investigate Bjj because I went out to show a troll what a sanshou guy can do.

Wish I had known BJJ as a kid. I would have put my brothers in a triangle choke instead of punching them. There wouldn't have been any incriminating evidence (black eyes/bruises)to show mom! Anyone else have several brothers of about equal size? We farm boys were always rough-house. My poor mother just kept the medicine cabinet stocked with large strips of gauze and hydrogen peroxide.

" The reason that sportsmen such as boxers, and wrestlers have a higher success rate in self-defense situations over other martial artists is because they will fight in the same manner as they train." -Bruce Lee

apoweyn
09-04-2001, 10:22 PM
SifuAbel,

It's likewise very convenient to choose the meaning of another man's post when he specifically goes out of his way to declare that he is not attempting to make a blanket statement about traditional arts or NHB. He very carefully stated that he was describing his experience.

Ryu even went so far as to say that he valued the <u>concepts</u> that occur in NHB. Then he clearly laid out those concepts. He did not say NHB was the only way. He said that many of the methods present in NHB were his way.

If you took more from it than that, I think you're drawing the blanket statement. Not him.


Stuart B.

SevenStar
09-04-2001, 11:15 PM
well said.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

apoweyn
09-04-2001, 11:18 PM
Thanks SevenStar. Can't stand it when people flame someone who is so obviously trying to be fair.


Stuart B.

Ralek
09-05-2001, 01:33 AM
But i really want to fight a challenge match. Are there any other people in maryland who want to fight in a challenge match?

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Ryu
09-05-2001, 01:44 AM
uhhh..you have seen a pic of SevenStar haven't you?

Ralek, are you still only wanting to fight kung fu people? If not, I can probably try to find some MMA people on Mousel's or InTheGuard.com, or the Underground, etc in your area. This isn't a joke or meant to be mean or anything. :)
I'm sure there are some fighters in your area if you want to work out with them or fight challenge matches. Why don't you ask on the Underground, etc?

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura1.gif

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Ralek
09-05-2001, 03:42 AM
In his Sevenstar's profile it says he does Muy thai. I don't want to fight muy thai. He probably doesn't live around maryland anyway. What happened to all the traditional kung fu guys? It seems like all of them are doing muy thai, BJJ, and san shou. Where are the pure traditional ones that ONLY do wing chung, tai chi, bagua, hsing I, ect.

Ryu. I don't want to fight and MMA guys or BJJ guys or anything like that. I might make a small exception if I can't find any kung fu guys.

I'm guessing that i'm going to train with apo Weyn.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Royal Dragon
09-05-2001, 04:57 AM
Anyone out there been in a confrontation where a .45 goes off? I have. Trust me, even if it goes off in the air, and you KNOW!!! no one gets shot, you jump out of your skin (In my case a freind fired, so I know the opponent was in danger, not me). How about a knife? Ever stabb man? Do you know what happens? My Wife STABBED her last boyfriend (He deserved it), He just kept comming, did'nt even know he was cut untill he started blacking out.

What's my point?

You SHOULD train for armed and suprise encounters. Don't just Box or grappel, but get some play knives, chalk them up with bright orange chalk. See what happens. have you partners CHARGE you all at once. Train with gunfire in the room!! A large starter pistol going off right in the middle of sparing wile no one is expecting it shows an illusion shattering lesson.

How many do this stuff? I know Outlaws and Hell's Angels do it. Don't you think we should?

I say start training a traditional system, when you get good, branch out and train with new and realistic methods AS WELL as your traditional system (like gun shots going off randomly in class). I'm not talking adding full contact sparring to your "Traditional" style, or "Bag" work, this should already BE part of your traditional style. Do some hard core psyco "Biker" training. THAT'S what will prepare you.

RD


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

SevenStar
09-05-2001, 05:29 AM
I like that starter pistol idea. That's something I never would have thought of.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

SevenStar
09-05-2001, 05:36 AM
Did The great troll of the north call me a beotch??!??! the same troll that backed out of at least 5 challenges that he had no intention of accepting anyway, and has the gall to call the friendly encounter he had a bloodspilling fight because he got a cut on his hand? I fell out of my chair when I read that!! It was great. This is the part that really had me laughing:

"You wouldn't last 2 seconds agaisnt me."

I would have responded to it alot sooner, but I'm just now seeing it. Guess why? Because I was doing what you should be doing...training.

and I trained MUAY thai...muy thai sucks.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

Xebsball
09-05-2001, 05:48 AM
Hey don't miss out on what you're passing,
you're missing the hootah of the funky buddah,
eluder of the ****** up style's that get wicked
so come on as I start to kick it,
cause we're like outlaws sridding while suckers are hiding,
jump behind the bush when you see me driving by'
hanging out my window, and my MAGNUM taking out some putohs
acting kind of loco I'm just another local
kid from the street getting paid for my vocals.
Here is something you can't understand,
How I could just kill a man

-------------------------
Working on better signature.

fiercest tiger
09-05-2001, 06:00 AM
where is marylands? i may be in the u.s next year so i will love to spar you! is it in newyork?

anyways lets see what happens, ill try and get a date!

take it easy

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

Scott
09-05-2001, 06:49 AM
I think Nexus is real smart. =P

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

Nexus
09-05-2001, 08:51 AM
I think most people on this forum are well educated in the MA, even some of the trolls who like to spend their time stirring people up. I have found for the most part people here to be insightful and helpful and for that I am quite thankful. If I can be of service to people, or provide some insight or assistance than thats great! If I have spent the last 285 posts or so on typing that hasn't been helpful to anyone, than maybe one day it will be helpful to someone, and today is just not that day :)

I think many people in this topic especially have made very valid arguments and everyone indeed feels differently about the topic. This is good, it keeps peoples eyes open and their hearts heading in the right direction, that of, knowing the truth of themselves.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

Scott R. Brown
09-05-2001, 11:13 AM
Well I have just finished reading every single post and I agree with Nexus many of you have made some pretty educated comments.

I have to say something of my background in order to qualify my authority to make my following statements. I have trained in numerous M.A. for 27 years. I have trained in numerous arts, but never grappling. In high school I wrestled with friends on the wrestling team and they were never able to pin me. At least one of my friends out weighed me and was demonstrably stronger. I have grappled with Judo players and a few grapplers and choked them out numerous times. I have never been choked out or pinned or put in the ever famous elbow lock that I could not escape from. My point is it does not “necessarily“ take grappling classes to know how to deal with grapplers.

And lastly, I worked for the California Dept. of Corrections for 10 years.

SifuAbel has posted the most noteworthy comments back on page 2. While I respect the comments of many of you, SifuAbel has spoken true wisdom and most of you do not even recognize it. You argue over jots and tittles which demonstrates your lack of knowledge, experience and maturity. I carefully read everyone’s posts to determine if ANYONE even recognized his comments for what they are worth, those of you who did know who you are. Most of the criminals I have dealt with would eat you guys up and spit you out before breakfast. Even those of you who say you have been in streetfights have apparently fought only light weights, because if you had been in a REAL streetfight you would probably be an invalid or dead by now with the mouths on some of you. Yes, I mean you Ralek and a few others as well. And I mean only a “few” others. You can tell who they are because they talk the loudest about their prowess. In a REAL fight it is often the person who is willing to be the most brutal first that is the winner and it is decide at the outset, not 5 or 10 seconds into the fight. If it does last that long, you got VERY, VERY lucky and you should be celebrating your luck by running away not giving the criminal a second shot at you. A REAL criminal is not someone to mess around with. They do not care about you or the consequences of their actions. Most of their friends are in prison anyway, so a trip back is like a homecoming. They will just laugh at you while recounting the story of how tough you thought you were to their friends. And maybe you were an excellent M.A. well trained in being alert and ground grappling etc. These guys are not impressed by you and they don’t care. They fight to win not so they can to recount their inflated adventures on a BB. I have known guys that have cut off heads, burned people alive, run over people with cars, put heads on the mantle piece for display, raped dead bodies; you name it they are out there waiting for a shot at YOU. They will rape you, your dog, your cat, your fish, and your wife, sister mother, father, and grandmother. They will make you watch and they blow them all away with a shotgun and let you live just so you can remember.

I understand that this is just a BB for friends to get together and argue, but most you who think everyone else doesn’t know what they are talking about, don’t know what you are talking about either.

There I have had my say and it is the truth. You should be thanking SifuAbel for making the attempt to enlighten you on REALITY.

Let the flames begin.

Sincerely,

Scott

Ralek
09-05-2001, 01:39 PM
I did a beatiful response to you Scott. But it was deleted by the moderators. But it was basically the same thing as my other posts. Yes the street and criminals are brutal. But kung fu's dances will not help you. Solid arts like boxing/muy tahi/BJJ/sambo will give you the real fighting skills.

Ralek
09-05-2001, 01:43 PM
And i didn't fight a light wieght. I fough a heavy weight national level san shou fighter. Who outweigheed me. He came in 3rd at the nation san shou tournament a few years ago. San shou is where Cung Le fights and it is like a combination of muy thai and wrestling.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Ralek
09-05-2001, 01:54 PM
And judo is the joke of grappling. Try fighting a brazilian jiujitsu fighter.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Scott R. Brown
09-05-2001, 06:22 PM
Ralek,

A heavy weight San Shou National Champion is not a REAL criminal who wants to take your spleen out and eat it for dinner and therefore is a light weight in the REAL world. You participate in duels not REAL streefights there is a BIG difference.

Sincerely,

Scott

Nexus
09-05-2001, 07:17 PM
Scott. You were the last person I would think would let Ralek crawl under his skin :P (In reference to your post on the previous page)

Personally, I find Ralek's determination to spread his feelings on BJJ admirable. Albeit as it may that they are rather one-sided, at least he supports Martial Arts in general. He is in my opinion the better man for it than the millions who sit around doing jack with their life as the television entertains them and the welfare checks provide them with the means of hitting the pipe on a nightly basis. We come down on Ralek for voicing his opinion and forget the fact that its better that then him doing nothing at all. He is here, he reads our posts too, he applies what he finds useful and beneficial to his arts/practices if he actually does them and thats that. We can't know him any better then he knows himself and with that it is useless for us to try and argue with him on every point. I have no problem with him being here on the forum, a lot of people have expectations for themselves and in that find themselves getting upset when others don't meet their own standards. Maybe Ralek doesn't meet your standards for a good poster, or a respectful person. Maybe you should re-evaluate what bothers you about him, and change it, rather than trying to change him.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

Scott R. Brown
09-05-2001, 07:24 PM
Nexus,

I am not suprised. He is quite a character.

Sincerely,

Scott

Scott R. Brown
09-05-2001, 07:29 PM
Nexus,

I normally don't participate in this type of converstion, but I was bored last night so I thought I would see if I could stir up a hornets nest. Although, I am serious about what I have posted. Criminals will eat most of us alive becasue no matter how free training and thinking we think we are criminals have no conscience or morals to control their behavior. They really will take your spleen out and eat it.

Sincerely,

Scott

Ryu
09-05-2001, 07:33 PM
Ralek, watch your mouth...

Scott,
While I understand where your post is coming from, and having worked in security, and with police in the past I am very aware of the kind of monsters out there in the world. I usually try not to be disgusting and "doomsday" and everything, but there are a lot of fights that do NOT deal with hardened criminals and serial murderers. Not all people are in that world. There are many average citizens who are simply bullies, or mean-spirited and want to take their frusterations out on someone else.
As far as the hardened criminal who wants to rape your girlfriend, eat your cat, etc etc.
Why on earth would anyone use "martial arts"? on someone like that. Simply put, and forgive my bluntness, but you kill people like that. If a hardened criminal wants to kill me, rape me, poke his eyes out and throw them at me, whatever, I will not get into my JKD stance and try to do a judo takedown. I, myself, will shoot him in the face, cut his head off with a knife, and rape HIS dead body..
I am not trying to sound "tough" or any garbage like that, but I sometimes get a little bothered by all the graphic "hardened criminals will do this" stuff. Of course there are people out there like that, but whoever deals with them with "martial arts" is possibly not going to survive unless he's extremely great.
An old Japanese saying holds that sometimes to "beat a devil you must become a devil"

We are not talking about self-defense...this is who can murder who first.


That's just my opinion..

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura.jpg

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Nexus
09-05-2001, 07:43 PM
Scott. It seems as if working in that field for as long as you did, did worse for you than good. If you die, you die. No matter how horrific of a description of death or torture you can present us with, thats all they are, descriptions. If it happens, it happens, little can be done about that except for avoiding situations which don't seem right and trusting yourself. If you cannot be comfortable and ready to die at ease then death still rides the mind. Let it go. Useless to quary over and it will do us no good in protecting our families. The key is to harmonize the mind-body with the world. On your death bed, these matters of rapists/serial killers and what not are of little matter to you. Even if they are the reason you are on the death bed, if you have not let it go, then they have truly done you damage. You know all this though Scott!

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

Scott R. Brown
09-05-2001, 07:45 PM
Nexus,

Sometimes arrogance and ignorance need to be addressed for of the benefit of all. People tend to think in the box, myself included. There is a real and dangerous element out there that wannabes have no idea about. It is easy to talk tough and tell stories I have seen and worked with these guys. I even known some pro M.A. I'll take a real criminal at my back than any of them, because they do not play by the rules, they know no pain. They have really been shot, stabbed, clubbed and beat down and have done the same to others. They will sneak up on you and cut your heart out at feed it to their dog. That is the REAL world. I know some inmates that threw a guy off the second tier knowing that they would get shot for doing so. And yes, they were both shot. How many who post on these BB would have the balls to do that.

Do not misunderstand, I am not admiring their actions, I admire the guts it takes to perform such an action knowing that you could be killed moments later. Many of us would risk our lives for a good cause, but they had childish reasons for performing their actions, although they beleived their reasons were of monumental importance.

Sincerely,

Sincerely,

Scott

Scott R. Brown
09-05-2001, 07:51 PM
Ryu,
First, please understand none of my posts were directed at you. I have found your thoughts intersting and thought provoking. Actually, so have some of Raleks.

My point about criminals is that the one's you have time to shoot are the light weights. You won't see REAL criminals coming until it is too late.

I agree M.A. will not help much in these circumstances. Neither will prayer. I had an inmate who raped and killed a young woman. During her entire ordeal she held her rosary and prayed.

Bar fights and college brawls are not not the REAL world. These circumstances can and should be avoided.

Sincerely,

Scott

Scott R. Brown
09-05-2001, 08:02 PM
Nexus,

I understand where you are coming from and I know your intentions are good, however your assumptions are over-stepping your knowldege of me. I applaude your personal goals and your attempts share your knowledge and experience.

You do not really understand and neither do most people in the public, what a real criminal is like. That is until it happens to you or someone you know. I am not bitter or angry, I am realistic. I personally know these guys and I know some of the victims of these types of crimes. It is not pretty.

Sure there will always be those that want to prove themselves in a real fight. I find it immature, but I understand the motivation. It is important to realize the difference between a duel and a brawl and a fight with a REAL criminal. And you are perfectly correct, nothing will prepare you for it becaue if they want you dead or incapaciatated you will be so before you know what has happened. Your only chance is if they make an initial mistake.

Sincerely,

Scott

Nexus
09-05-2001, 08:04 PM
It seems what you are saying basically Scott is for people not to be cocky, self centered, self absorbed, egotistical etc because there are people out there who don't care etc, and you are going to the extreme to provide examples of such. Unfortunately Scott, you must realize that people who don't want to listen, wont listen, until it happens to them, and even then sometimes they wont. They will still blame the other person, so in that, you are wasting your breath. Just tell people not to be cocky, to know their own limits and skills and in that be satisfied, without rushing around to compare what this can do and that can do. I believe that is what you are trying to say, but I fear you do yourself more harm than good by stressing such things upon yourself and others. Take my advice for what you will.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

SevenStar
09-05-2001, 08:10 PM
We don't treat ralek this way because he prefers grappling and muay thai (well, muy thai to him) over CMA. I enjoy those arts myself, so I can't knock him for that. However, ralek has had several obnoxious aliases before this one - gaiden, rolls, verder, kodukan, etc. and they all existed for nothing more than to stir up a commotion. On top of which, he doesn't train and claims to learn his standup techniques from games like tekken. His grappling comes from a gracie CD. I'm willing to bet he knows more than that as from what I understad his brother is into MA, but he's obnoxious nonetheless. He's a good troll, probably the best we have here, and from time to time, he does say things that make sense. You just have to sort through all of his other crap to find it

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

SevenStar
09-05-2001, 08:12 PM
maybe you can add some validity to something for me since you have worked in a correctional facility - have you ever heard of or seen a fighting style called "jailhouse rock"?

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

Scott R. Brown
09-05-2001, 08:15 PM
Nexus,

I agree with you and you are correct I am attempting to make a point by over stating my case. If you will scroll up a little bit you will see my post that said I was bored last night and intended to stir up controversy.

However, that does not detract from the truth of what I am saying. As I have posted before, it would be irresponsible of me not to put the information out there. If one in a thousand listen it is worth it. Just because you or I do not believe anyone will listen is not an excuse not to make the effort.

Sincerely,

Scott

Ryu
09-05-2001, 08:17 PM
No no, I know it wasn't directed at me, and actually I'm sorry for appearing to be angry at you. I'm not at all. :) I guess what I'm trying to say however, is that what is the point of knowing this knowledge? To make you less "tough" acting? Heck, this is the reason I try not to act tuff. There's always someone who can kick my butt. But, in all seriousness what are you to do when "there is nothing you can do."?
How would you deal with the people who you will never see, and who will kill you and leave you no option to do anything? Not really a whole lot, correct? :) I do not feel it is "guts" that lets these people do what they do, but a disfunction in their ability to judge, rationalize, and see consequences to the fullest potential. To me it's a psychological issue, not "guts".

I very much agree with you that there are horrors in the world, and believe me I have always, always wanted to be able to control that kind of thing. But I cannot. I know I cannot. I know I still have a lot to learn in MA as well... But I will never give up my belief in myself, and the striving to gain realistic skills in order to protect myself obviously, but more so to protect the safety of others who cannot fight for themselves. And that, to me, is what really takes "guts".

....these kinds of stories are reality. And I do not think anyone who really spars, fights, etc thinks that "reality" is superhero powers, and the ability to take everyone out at will.

Again :( To beat a devil, sometimes you have to become a devil...just don't let it overcome you.

There is no real way to practice "killing" someone unless you actually do it. Killing someone is possibly the most disgusting, inhuman, horrid, sickening, insane feeling you can possibly go through... it is usually NOT clean, NOT pretty, NOT fast, people try to roll around on the ground and stay alive, etc etc.

Anyone who would not feel suffering for the person going through such horror is indeed a monster, yes I agree.

But even monsters can bleed. If there is no option, and they will "get us before we can see them" then there's no point in telling us. The fate is already sealed.
...if there is an option....well then we hopefully can look realistically at what to do.

Anyway, that's my rant. :)
Take care,
Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura.jpg

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Nexus
09-05-2001, 08:18 PM
Sevenstar: Agreed. He is what he is, nothing more, nothing less and only he can know the truth of it. So it does little for us to quarry over what he says, and better to pass over his information and posts if they are not helpful to us personally. But if he is giving others bad advice it is worth also inputing your advice and letting others choose for themselves. No sense arguing with a troll though.

Scott: To that Scott I agree. I am even smiling at what you said. Indeed, if it helps just one person, then it was worth it. I am not trying to make you feel as if you are not doing a good thing in your posts, I think that it could very well be beneficial and probably is or will be one to some!

Thanks for the input Scott, keep it up!

Ryu: Cool discussion, great way to bring some things out in the open that need to be discussed.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

Scott R. Brown
09-05-2001, 08:24 PM
SevenStar,

I have not heard the term, however prison gangs have a warrior system of training. Especially in the harder prisons. They learn how to attack hard and fast and discard the weapon. They learn all sorts of tactical skills such as attacks, vital points , stalking techniques, etc.,as well as how to take weapoins away from staff and turn it on them. Inmates have made tactical assaults on Staff offices. Even juvenile offenders have these programs and abilities. They do not say Prisons are a training ground for criminal activity for nothing. They have extensive physical training programs that would make your Marine D.I. proud.

Sincerely,

Scott

Scott R. Brown
09-05-2001, 08:37 PM
Ryu,

I agree with you. My posts were not intended for the level headed. They was intended to throw some cool water of reality on those that do not understand that duels and brawls do not make you tough. They are a limited experience in a controled enviroment. It is easy to be a big shot in fish bowl. The big wide world is different.

Nexus,

Thank you for your concern about my feelings. They have not been hurt and I am not offended. I have enough experience of your posts to be convinced of your inherent good intent. I had anticipated you would respond the manner in which you have. I would expect nothing less of you.

Sincerely,

Scott

Scott R. Brown
09-05-2001, 09:16 PM
Ryu Continued,
“But even monsters can bleed. If there is no option, and they will "get us before we can see them" then there's no point in telling us. The fate is already sealed.
...if there is an option....well then we hopefully can look realistically at what to do.”
One of my best buddies trained in the numerous M.A. for nearly 25 years. He had a buddy who was an Army Ranger and highly respected Blackbelt in American Kenpo. One night his ex-girl-friend showed up at his house with a .32 caliber pistol. He got up off the couch when she entered the room and had time to stick his right hand up in an attempt to deflect the muzzle of the pistol. She fired. The dinky little .32 caliber round deflected off his wrist, hit his clavicle deflected down into his heart and killed him. My friend whom I have known since I was 12 years old (I am now 42) and who has extensive knowledge in many martial arts never confront the fact that there could be a circumstance that M.A. could not handle. He was raised and conditioned to be the hero. He was not unrealistic in the same sense as some on this BB. He worked with his buddy as a bouncer in a number of clubs and has had his share of tussles. He just never faced the fact that mortality is real and sometimes your M.A. will not save you, this is important to understand.
People need to know that many of their supposed real life encounters are not what they think they are. Once again, a duel is not a streetfight and learning skills that will help you win a duel will not help against a determined criminal with mayhem in mind. It is important to know your own limitations and the limitations of your training. I understand that many participate in duels and brawls to develop real life experiences and to test their skills. They gain quite a bit of valuable information that cannot be denied. They also gain a false sense of security, which is dangerous. They also use their experiences as a means of belittling the skills and experiences of others who do not subscribe to their training methods. These people need to understand they are guilty of what they are criticizing. Their own training methods are just as simpleminded just in a different way. It is difficult for each of us to see past our own preconceived notions and it takes a wake up call from others to show us our blind spots, myself included.

Sincerely,

Scott

Ralek
09-05-2001, 09:27 PM
Scott. I have already said that BJJ/NHB/ or any martial arts will not help you against guns. I also said that you need a gun yourself to deal with situations and even then you might still lose.

What do you do to deal with these situation? I have openly admitted that NHB does not help agaisnt those crazy situations with guns, multiple opponents/ ect. Your just restating things that i have already said. I've already said that martial arts won't help you against someone shooting shotguns at you/ect.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Knifefighter
09-05-2001, 09:28 PM
================================================== =============
I have trained in numerous M.A. for 27 years. I have trained in
numerous arts, but never grappling. In high school I wrestled with friends on the
wrestling team and they were never able to pin me. At least one of my friends out
weighed me and was demonstrably stronger. I have grappled with Judo players and a few
grapplers and choked them out numerous times. I have never been choked out or
pinned or put in the ever famous elbow lock that I could not escape from. My point is it
does not "necessarily" take grappling classes to know how to deal with grapplers.
================================================== =============

Scott:
I agree with you about the criminal element and that anything can happen with someone of that mind set. However, your statement above illustrates that you are just as deluded about grapplers as many people on the forum are about what can happen on the street. To state that you have never been choked out, submitted, or pinned shows that you obviously have very limited experience with grapplers. This would make you better than any grappler alive because even world class grapplers have been choked out, submitted, or pinned at many time in their training and competition careers.

[This message was edited by Knifefighter on 09-06-01 at 12:38 PM.]

Ralek
09-05-2001, 09:31 PM
He's only fought JUDO guys. Judo sucks. Maybe it used to be good a long time ago before World War 2 but it is not good anymore.

Brazilian jiujitsu is the ultimate grappling style.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Scott R. Brown
09-05-2001, 09:53 PM
Knifefighter and Ralek,

Thank you for your comments.

Ralek,

If I have merely restated your own comments then we are in agreement and I apologize for any misunderstanding. Are you Schizophrenic by any chance. It appears that you have a tendancy to make an intelligent comment and then follow it up with an ignorant one. You make an assumption when you say Judo sucks. Just like any other art, not "ALL" Judo sucks. You would be correct in saying that "some Judo" sucks. Judo players do have experience choking people out as that is part of their training. I have also trained with State class wrestlers who admittedly do not know how to finish but are quite adept at shooting in for the takedown and are fully capalble of tying one in knots and turning one on their backs.

Knifefighter,

No one is invincible. My comment was to illustrate that it does not take formal training to be able to defend against another style of fighting. A comprehensive study of history and the history of strategy and tactics would demonstrate that it is beneficial to understand your ennenmy and how he fights. Miyamoto Musashi was an expert in Kenjutsu, not kusari-gama, jo-justsu, kyu-jutstu or any other art, yet he defeated experts of these other arts. He studied these other arts and learned their weaknesses and used those weaknesses against them. He basically out smarted them. This is how one defeats an opponent with a different skill. Study up on their tactics and devise responses to them. That is why in the old days the Master would not fight the first challenge match if an opponent came to the school for a fight. The first 2 or three fights would allow the Master the opportunity to observe the challengers style and method of combat and then devise responses for them. That is also why the Gracie's ability to defeat opponents has diminshed over time. People are becoming aware of their tactics and have devised reponses for them.

It is not as complicated an the uneducated and inexperienced beleive.

Sincerely,

Scott

Royal Dragon
09-05-2001, 11:27 PM
You now guys, this is a good thread. I don't know much about Prisions, my dealings have been with those types either before or inbetween visits to the "Criminal Universitys". I grew up with Gangsters in a neiborhood populated by Mobsters and "Other" white "Bad guys". One of my Child hood friends was just on TV. about a month or so ago pointing out a "Mafia Grave Yard" he helped stock. When we were younger, he took me there and described in detail some of the (How do i say this,) situations that lead to the occupants demise. At the time, I thought he was a "pathetic" playing for attention and I did not belive a word he said, untill I saw him on the news (the fact that he was from a well know Mob family never occured to me then).

Other friends of mine became Bikers, HARD CORE types (rummurs of thier activitys terify me). Although I have greatly distanced myself from them mostly, I have seen too much to discount reality.

Criminals TRAIN HARRDER than we do. They LIVE to fight, Kill and Maime others. Rememebr, they don't work, so there's PLENTY of time AND Motivation because of thier life styles. While you hold back techniques so as NOT to hurt your martial brothers, they seek innocents to test them on. Wile we revel in our "Tournament" victorys, they are reveling in thier latest kill. Bodys dissapear, and are never found. Criminals know this and are COMFORTABLE that they will not get caught. WHY? because they usually DON'T. If I were to walk up and Kill one of you, no one would know it was me, much less prove it if they did know.

Face it, in todays world we are conditioned to be gentile, they are conditioned to be brutal. It is a TOTALY different mindset and way of thinking. They have NO FEAR of the justice system, because they have nothing to loose anyway, we have it all to loose. Just think of the hassel a speeding ticket costs you and I. To them, that level of irritation only comes from a death sentence or really LONG prison term.

I hate to say it gents, but I have know people that became PURE EVIL. They Laugh at my Martial arts. I was once told, "You used to be such a great fighter, why did you ruine it with all that Karate Crap?". This is from a man that would kill me where I stand, with nothing but his hands, if I crossed him.

Trust me, the bad guys DO have REAL FUNCTIONAL combat systems. They get together in ther club houses, and become the feircest fighters "I" have ever seen. They Lift, Box. Grappel, Throw, Stab Shoot, Club and anything else to master the arts of humane destruction. They have ALL the videos,and devise thier own ways of defeting them. Don't forget, many of them HAVE Black Belts from thier younger less "organized" days, so if you think your "Black Sash" Is going to protect you, your nutts. And if by some chance it does, they're going to bloww your house up as a warning.

Don't forget many are "On" Stuff when they look for trouble. You Can't hurt them, and HAVE to break Knees or elbow or crush ribbs in the first few seconds of the fight. YOU don't have any experiance doing that sort of thing. And Round Kicking your class mates with a chest protector does'nt count, because no ribs actually broke, so you don't know how to ACTUALLY apply power to do it. Your all theory, they're practiced and polished in real live life or death (generally thier victems). The KNOW what works on a strug out criminal psycotic, because they ARE one, and have fought and probually KILLED them!!!

I don't mean to throww all the scare tactics around, but what some call "Reality based" are also living in illusions.

The old addage "Avoid trouble to begin with" REALY is your best bet. I owe my "street" sense for my most sucsessful self defense FAR more than any Kung Fu training or fighting skill I may have.

Remember, They won't attack unless they KNOW your going down. They will distract, set you up and play you for a fool and even defuse the situation, befreinding you into a false sense of security. You won't know what hit you untill it's too late, I don't care HOW good you are at blocking and avoiding stuff.

RD


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

Scott R. Brown
09-05-2001, 11:34 PM
Royal Dragon,

MOST EXCELLENT POST!!! Everybody l;isten to this man. He knows what he is talking about!!

Sincerely,

Scott

SevenStar
09-05-2001, 11:38 PM
good post.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

omegapoint
09-06-2001, 05:43 AM
Since were talking about vultures who think they're predators: Most psychopaths are smart but not a smart as they think they are. I've had antisocial gangster homey's and I've had some who was illegal 'cause that's what they had to do to survive. Everybody needs to be aware that at any moment some sociopath can "steal" you!

Most mafia types are Grade 'A' cowards, who need a cadre of mofos to do their fighting for them. Most can't really fight, and the only skill they have is in the art of intimidation through weaponry. The "Jedi Mind Trick" is a very real thing. You really have to be convinced you're somehow mentally dominant to try and use it. It's called all id, man. Like a self-centered 7 yr. old, who was never taught right from wrong. So fizUCK the Soprano mentality and the stereotypes those portrayals reinforce. I understand the need for Organized Labor to have a counter-Fraternal "company" combatting the forces of Big Business (Freemasons), but if you're shiznit is evil, it's evil, so get off La Cosa Nostra jocking. Both sides are the wolves and most of us are the sheep. If you guys think they're something to be emulated then you need a self-esteem check. Masons and Mafia, both COWARDS! The only secrets to domination I keep, are hidden in my legs and arms. FizUCK these elitist-PERIOD!

Now that that rant is over, never underestimate your opponent. Train for as many scenarios as possible. Learn how to deal with modern as well as traditional weapons. Be your own idol, and maximize the gifts nature gave you. By the way, chambering in my style of MA is a Ti-tech (tuite/gyakute/grappling) and flexibility and strength exercise. I have never seen a good Karateka/Gung Fu person spar or fight with his hands chambered at the sides. Then again most folks don't have the foggiest as to what chambering really is, and what it's teaching. Peace...

SevenStar
09-06-2001, 06:30 AM
"Most mafia types are Grade 'A' cowards, who need a cadre of mofos to do their fighting for them. Most can't really fight, and the only skill they have is in the art of intimidation through weaponry."

I'm not one to back down to anyone, so have learned... that mentality can get you killed. I know several gangstaz of both the red and blue persuasion, and granted, they love to attack in groups and with weapons, but don't think that just because you stand up to them that they will back down. Don't underestimate their fighting either. I'll admit that the techniques of the ones I know suck, but they wrestle with eachother on a regular basis, spar and lift weights. They are extremely aggressive by nature and won't hesitate to fu(k a person up whether they are alone or in a group.

"Now that that rant is over, never underestimate your opponent. Train for as many scenarios as possible. Learn how to deal with modern as well as traditional weapons. Be your own idol, and maximize the gifts nature gave you."

That I wholeheartedly agree with which is why I also believe that grappling should be a part of any MA training regimen, however, not all MA agree with that. which brings us back to the original reason that Ryu started this thread - these are his thoughts on what type of training works for HIM.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

Ralek
09-06-2001, 02:07 PM
NHB is for fighting skills. What is the purpose of talking about mafia? If you say that something isn't realistic because people have guns then that would make every unarmed style unrealistic.

NHB is the most realistic style for FIGHTING skills. It is the best for the actual unarmed fighting.

Why even bring up guns/mafia/ect. ?

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Ralek
09-06-2001, 02:12 PM
If you are like Sifu Able and bring up topics such as guns/mafia/ect. to defend kung fu and say NHB is unrealistic then you are squashing your own art at the same time. That reasoning makes kung fu unrealistic.

NHB trains with people actually fighting. Kung fu does sissy sparring/forms/drills/techniques in thin air.

Why even bring up mafia? Becuase there is no unarmed arts that will let you deal with mafia people shooting at you. Or 10 mafia guys with brass knuckles beating you up. Kung fu cannot do a thing. No unarmed style will help you.

But NHB will give you much more fighting ability than kung fu.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

jimmy23
09-06-2001, 04:42 PM
I see some truth and some fantasy in this discussion.

To think that a thug is an unstaoppable fighting machine is a fallacy. No one is unstoppable. No one is going to stand up after a knock out. Our physiology is the same.

there are two levels of thugs.

The majority, the first level have this. They have no compunctions against hurting you, and no sesne of a "fair" fight. Period. Most of us do, they dont. Theyll beat you once your unconscius, and laugh as they do it. However, you hurt them, they break, as they are capable of feeling fear and pain, and will beg and cry like any other person.

The second level, they have no fear either. I know a guy, was a great amateur boxer, who will fight 15 people if he feels like it, he has absolutely no sense of personal preservation. Does he beatpeople a lot? yes. Does he get beat down a lot? Yes, because no one alive will beat 7 guys in a closed area. Is he a dangerous street figther? Very much so. He will come back and fight you again, and again , and again, every time he sees you, until he wins. You break his leg, when the cast comes off hes going to fight you again.

Now, as for tactics, these guys are all offense, maybe a small amountof defense. However, the guy I mentioned earleir, we couldnt get him ready for nhb. He would NEVER tap, ever. He fought nhb a few times, won two fights then got his arm broke because he wouldnt tap when he got caught.

There are two implications to this. One, these guys arent unbeatable. Two, if you dont know how to fight, how to really fight in a bloody, violent way, all your kung fu wont make a bit of difference unless you are very lucky. This is where NHB style training helps a lot (NOT just grappling), you get to where you are used to the chaos of a brutal situation.You get used to taking damage and continuing to fight. But, you fight two or three of these guys, youd better run, because you stand a snowballs chance in heck of winning, unless you have one punch knockout type power ( a lot rarer then people think). Even then , weapons come in, and one guy will stick or shoot you while youre engaged to the other.


BTW, this mindset is in all of us, we are just conditioned to suppress it. It can be brought out though, it just takes time and/or the right stimulus (fear for oneself , outrage "righteous anger" can all do this). I read of a toll booth operator, an escaped con came to rob him, and shot him first thing. The victim went beserk and attacked the con. The victim was shot four more times, but beat the con bloody ( the bad guy ran away with no money) , the victim lived after calling for help.

THe thing is, most of fear(rightly so) this dark, murderous , animal side of our personalities. Many of us cant handle it, or what it implies about our basic nature. Soldiers who have seen a lot of combat have this mindset. Why do you think so many veterans wont even talk about their war experience? Seeing someone die is one thing, remembering that in the frame of mind you were in you took great joy in killing them, is quite another.

Think ofthe war heroes youve read about, who took hellish wounds but kept fighting .

Sorry about the rant, but Ive seen so much mis information about criminals, that I felt I had to add my own two cents worth.


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

blaktiger
09-06-2001, 07:53 PM
Just doing some research on UFC today. If BJJ is SOOOOOOO superior to every martial art ever created - especially the so-vilified kung fu, why did it take Mr. Gracie 3:49 to defeat an almost 60 year old Ron Van Clief, who is a Chinese Goju fighter....?

And why did the Gracies finally lose their so-called superiority in UFC to monster sized maniacs like Severn and Abbot?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Hey Mister Han man! I don't like your island very much. In fact, I'd like to leave your island!"

apoweyn
09-06-2001, 07:56 PM
I don't recall Severn or Abbott ever beating a Gracie. And did you see the Van Clief fight? While he certainly has a lot of fight in him for a 60-year-old man, it wasn't much of a match.

I'm not a huge fan of NHB, but let's at least try and keep these debates reasonable.


Stuart B.

Grappling-Insanity
09-06-2001, 08:22 PM
African get with the times, the matches your talking about are like 10 years old!.

JWTAYLOR
09-06-2001, 08:51 PM
I'm not so arrogant to spend a page telling you how tough I am, or how I got that way. Or any rediculous validation of why I'm so right, becuase I've supposedly been there.

But, I will chime right on in and say that if you think that martial training won't help you face a "real criminal", intent on eating your spleen or any other organ, you are sadly mislead. And you're beaten already.

Scott, you sound like a victim.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

Knifefighter
09-06-2001, 08:57 PM
JWT:
Nice point. I agree 100%.

Braden
09-06-2001, 09:27 PM
rofl

Ralek
09-06-2001, 10:39 PM
For the record. Von Clief was 51 at the time. The tournament was a long time ago. But he was still old.

Basically Von Clief was a sitting duck the entire fight. Royce did a double leg takedown and just pinned Von Clief while Von Clief squirmed all around exshasting himself and Royce just rested. Then Royce decided to end it. He punched him in the face and Von Clief turned around giving Royce his back. Then Royce elbowed the guys head then choked him out.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

Ralek
09-06-2001, 10:46 PM
Royce lost his superiority to monster's like Severn and Abbot?

Watch UFC#4. Royce chokes out Von Clief without Von Clief landing a single strike. And Severn? Royces chokes out Severn. Severn outweighed Royce by 80 pounds and was a gold medal olympic wrestler. Yet Royce still won and choked him out with a triangle becuase BJJ is superior for submissions and groundwork. 80 pounds is a nasty wieght differnece and takes a lot of skill to make up the difference.

Royce never fought Tank Abott. But..... Severn fought Tank Abott and totally pumelled him the entire time. Severn smashed Tank into little bitty pieces. Severn was smashing tanks head with elbows and knees. And....... royce had beaten Severn. So Royce beat the guy who beat Abott.

And...... All the NHB fighters do BJJ for the ground work. You won't see any other style being used on the ground. 10 years ago you would never see boxers doing armbars from the guard.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

SifuAbel
09-07-2001, 05:46 AM
Ah no.........Van clief tapped out from a standing arm leg scissor like delucia did. He didn't get chocked out or taken to the ground.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Ryu
09-07-2001, 08:19 AM
?????
what? Um, I think you're mistaken.
Van Clief was taken down and choked out.

Ryu

http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura.jpg

judo legend, Masahiko Kimura


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

SifuAbel
09-07-2001, 10:14 AM
Did he fight more than once? I saw it live , way back. I'll have to see it again to make sure. We're talking about RON van cleif right? Tai mak was with him.

Could this be age setting in? oooooooooooooohhhh
too many punches? I'll get back to you on that.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Royal Dragon
09-07-2001, 04:07 PM
1. there are crazy pshycos who live to maime, Kill and Maul people.

2. they train HARRDER than we do (well, many do)

3. they often have MORE real life experiance and a deeper understanding of thier skills, even if they are "Sloppy".

4. They have a better mastery of "Intent"

5. NHB is NOT street fighting, but it helps develop skills NEEDED to survive a violent fight.

6. Crazy pshycos are only human, and CAN be beat, although avoiding them is better.

7. We NEED to train in as many realistic enviroments as we can (NHB, Gun fire, Knives).

8. Mindsett and mentality are majior factors in determining the out come of a violent encounter.

9. I have no lesson for number 9, but it has numerological significance in the Kung Fu world, so I HAD to write SOMETHING ;)

Royal Dragon


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

SifuAbel
09-08-2001, 03:25 AM
#4 is possibly the most important difference between them and us. A man is most deadly when he has nothing to lose. He is stopped by nothing.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

SevenStar
09-08-2001, 03:45 AM
I agree on the #4 comment.

"NHB trains with people actually fighting. Kung fu does sissy sparring/forms/drills/techniques in thin air."

Do some research rolls. Better yet, train CMA.

-ShortySeven&copy;
Step right up and get it -- whoever wants [defeat]

Come not between the dragon and his wrath...

gfhegel21
09-10-2001, 05:27 AM
Good post Jimmy.

Knifefighter
09-18-2001, 11:07 PM
"...a standing arm leg scissor..." WTF? Bwahahahah. Too funny!

SifuAbel
09-19-2001, 12:42 AM
Pardon me if I don't know what YOU call it. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaatever, like it matters. It didn't take you long to come out of the woodwork. Where have you been in all of this? Bored because for once no one gave a turd if you liked kung fu or not? I suppose now we can resume making you the center of attention. Peacefull orchid indeed, talk about gay.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Knifefighter
09-19-2001, 02:18 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you say that you had trained/sparred against BJJ/submission fighters? If so, you would know the name of this move.a

honorisc
10-04-2001, 07:40 PM
"Why even bring up mafia? Becuase there is no unarmed arts that will let you deal with mafia people shooting at you. Or 10 mafia guys with brass knuckles beating you up. Kung fu cannot do a thing. No unarmed style will help you. "

Theoretically, in the moment, there would be insignificant if any difference in Maffia people shooting at you from various other category multiple shooting assailants~.

Arts~ that Do deal with Mafia types (Who might want you dead):

Diplomacy
Respect
Honor
Truth
Virtue
Business

While these things might not be taught in Kung-Fu, they can be learned, in Kung-Fu.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

Knifefighter
10-04-2001, 10:58 PM
Abel:
You never answered my question. Didn't you say you had sparred against BJJ guys?

Here's another one for you. Were you the kid that all the other kids beat up in school?

SifuAbel
10-04-2001, 11:13 PM
Knife-orchid-vasco-choke-jjj-jiujitsujedi-have i left anyone out?

How do you keep them all straight?

Sparred, yes many times, trained under no.

Are you a pathetic cretin ? yes. Opps, you didn't ask that question did you.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Knifefighter
10-05-2001, 02:58 AM
Seems like if you had sparred with them many times, they would have clued you in on the name of one of most popular moves in BJJ.‡

SifuAbel
10-05-2001, 04:05 AM
Nope, don't have a clue. We fought more than we talked. You can be h-anal about it if you want to be. But it doesn't change my history.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Knifefighter
10-05-2001, 04:15 AM
Cool, so you have sparred with BJJ guys. Did you spar with strikes included or did you just roll with them? If you just rolled, how did you start? How did you hook up with them? How did the sessions go? Ω

SifuAbel
10-05-2001, 04:17 AM
It doesn't help your situation by reacting to vasco's insult. I was being cool with you and then made the mistake of attacking with the wrong name.
Just pick one and stick with it. o

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

SifuAbel
10-05-2001, 04:32 AM
Nope always hitting, always starting with distance. MMA style.

Did I just say that? geez this place is rubbing off on me.

If they wanted just to roll they did not have to make the trip, they can do that for free at their homebase.•

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

Knifefighter
10-05-2001, 04:38 AM
Abel:
Once again you are mistaken. I am not the other guys you think I am. I am not really that interested in trading insults with you either. However, I am interested in your experience with the BJJ guys. How did you hook up with them and how did the sessions go?r

SifuAbel
10-05-2001, 07:07 PM
rrrrrrrriiiiiiggggghhhhhhtttttttttt sure you're not.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com