Pendulum Effect

[ShortBridge]

I don't want to start a linage debate or anything like that, but I've got a question and observation about a movement that occurs in most of the wing chun forms that is expressed a little differently family to family. Hopefully, I'll be able to be clear, I don't know all the Chinese terms that some of you clearly do. But, here goes:

Using Si Nim Tao as an example, anytime we heun sao at the end of a section and withdraw our elbow/hand back into it's chamber position, I notice that some families do this fairly linearly and others have more of a swoop, downward curving and then up into the chamber position. I've played with it both ways, but here's what started occurring to me. If I'm focusing my energy on my elbow, it really can't follow anything except it's natural pendulum arc unless I contort my shoulder, which I of course don't want to do. Once my elbow clears my body, then it can certainly start it's natural upswing. Conversely, as much as I like to think about pulling it straight back, I don't think that's physiologically possible without adjusting with my shoulder.

I have more freedom of movement with my forearm and hand of course, but if I should be focusing on my elbows as I think I should, then that's really superficial, right? It seems the most efficient thing to do is to let me hand be pulled naturally by the elbow, which should result in a fairly subtle arc.

The same type of movements, of course, exist in Chum Kiu and Bil Ge (sorry if I botch spelling of Chinese terms)

I'm curious as to how some of you view this. I think it's entirely possible that I'm missing something important, but I wanted to throw the question/observation out and see what you all thought.

Thanks in advance,

[k gledhill]

Pendulum elbow low and against the body in and out, same for pole when we raise and displace using sharp elbow retractions...
In SLT we move elbows along body to push out to center line...when elbow extends to the point it wants to leave the line we are striking...slt teaches the elbow to stay fixed to the center
line before striking tan or jum elbow ...

[Lee Chiang Po]

Jon, you are not just rechambering a fist. The Huen is a technique against a wrist grab or grip. You actually are able to reverse it. Retracting and rechambering is actually a grip and pull. The arm should not be left to fall in the arc like that, which is simply letting it go limp more than anything else. When you pull or jerk an opponent toward you, it is stronger if you pull it directly up the center line so to speak. The circle of the huen can be done both directions as needed.
I have watched a number of people doing the forms on Utube, and most of them are just making robotic moves as quickly as possible. They are just showing their skill of doing these movements quickly. But, each move is worthy of proper and complete application. Before anyone can do it complete and proper they have to know it complete and proper. You have to know the method and the purpose of each and every move in a form.
There is nothing mysterious or in need of deep interpretation in any of the Wing Chun forms. You just need a complete knowledge of each and every move you are making.
Now, when you are pulling, the elbow skirts the side of the chest and backwards as it retracts the fist below the arm pit. It comes in almost a flat manner and in a somewhat straight line. It is not a pendelem, but a pull.

[k gledhill]

Jon, you are not just rechambering a fist. The Huen is a technique against a wrist grab or grip. You actually are able to reverse it. Retracting and rechambering is actually a grip and pull. The arm should not be left to fall in the arc like that, which is simply letting it go limp more than anything else. When you pull or jerk an opponent toward you, it is stronger if you pull it directly up the center line so to speak. The circle of the huen can be done both directions as needed.
I have watched a number of people doing the forms on Utube, and most of them are just making robotic moves as quickly as possible. They are just showing their skill of doing these movements quickly. But, each move is worthy of proper and complete application. Before anyone can do it complete and proper they have to know it complete and proper. You have to know the method and the purpose of each and every move in a form.
There is nothing mysterious or in need of deep interpretation in any of the Wing Chun forms. You just need a complete knowledge of each and every move you are making.
Now, when you are pulling, the elbow skirts the side of the chest and backwards as it retracts the fist below the arm pit. It comes in almost a flat manner and in a somewhat straight line. It is not a pendelem, but a pull.

application ! I have to disagree.

[Lee Chiang Po]

application ! I have to disagree.

Fair enough. so what would you consider to be the application of a huen?

[Grumblegeezer]

Using Si Nim Tao as an example, anytime we heun sao at the end of a section and withdraw our elbow/hand back into it's chamber position, I notice that some families do this fairly linearly and others have more of a swoop, downward curving and then up into the chamber position. I've played with it both ways, but here's what started occurring to me. If I'm focusing my energy on my elbow, it really can't follow anything except it's natural pendulum arc unless I contort my shoulder, which I of course don't want to do. Once my elbow clears my body, then it can certainly start it's natural upswing. Conversely, as much as I like to think about pulling it straight back, I don't think that's physiologically possible without adjusting with my shoulder...

The same type of movements, of course, exist in Chum Kiu and Bil Ge (sorry if I botch spelling of Chinese terms)I'm curious as to how some of you view this.

You are entirely correct. When I first switched from a branch of "Chinese Kenpo" to WC, then WT back in the late 70s, I continued to do the level, linear elbow retraction you described, probably as a vestige of the somewhat "karate-like" kung-fu I had studied previously. I visualized the application both as a strong grab and as a rear elbow strike. And, as you pointed out, such a movement invariably caused my shoulder to rise and also made my technique rather rigid and ineffective.

Later, I finally realized that what you called "the pendulum" will help keep your shoulder dropped and relaxed, and will actually lend power to the technique. As far as applications go, there are several (including a rear elbow strike) but one that I do not teach is to pull an opponent's arm back inward. In the WC, WT, and now the VT that I am learning, we avoid withdrawing energy in towards our core! Yes, we can use the huen sau to dissolve a wrist grab, but we follow that with forward energy. Honestly, I feel it is a mistake to try to interpret the applications of SNT in such a strictly sequential manner. As often stated, SNT is like an alphabet to be used in myriad ways, not a sequential self-defense routine!

[k gledhill]

Fair enough. so what would you consider to be the application of a huen?

not application, simply a transitional move from one action to another ensuing action.
i.e. tan to fok to jum , without knowing what a guy is doing with his elbows [tan/fok/jum] everyone looks at the nice circley wristy thing he does in SLT .Then they copy the circle wrist with no idea about elbow skills . Because they dont know the elbow skill development they look for a reason they do the circle thing, they make it a wrist escape, a eye slash, a salutation etc...everything BUT the elbow behind it we are all doing as we type....you just havent had the sophistication of 'simple mindless idea' shown to you, so you/we/us, seek a myriad of alternatives to simply hitting a guy with a elbow allowing simultaneous attack/defense skills.
Tut sao becomes a wrist grab escape if a guy grabs my wrist down in fornt of my hips ? really.
I have seen some use it to circumnavigate an arm blocking their path...slow ? yeah !

etc...

[bennyvt]

the elbow shouldnt be pulled back when doing a heun sao. if you do that you pull the person into you instead of redirecting him. people only do this to make the palm harder. It should be a tiny movement to train short range power.

[Graham H]

the elbow shouldnt be pulled back when doing a heun sao. if you do that you pull the person into you instead of redirecting him. people only do this to make the palm harder. It should be a tiny movement to train short range power.

Say whaaaaaaaat? :D

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Jon, you are not just rechambering a fist. The Huen is a technique against a wrist grab or grip...

... There is nothing mysterious or in need of deep interpretation in any of the Wing Chun forms. You just need a complete knowledge of each and every move you are making.

Nice post!

An entire period of time was spent learning this at a very early stage in my training. Especially huen using the fuhao, or tiger mouth, to escape and regain control from grabs.

The 'chambered fist' I call 'paokuen', and fme it is trained in the 'basic' forms in a linear motion and can be applied either way depending on objective. Half moon shapes are found everywhere in Wing Chun and is normally termed as a 'sickle' motion rather than 'pendulum' motion, but each to their own. I can see how you may think the straight line pullback hinders the relaxation of the shoulder, but this also means that your shoulder has not settled enough for drilling paokuen! This is a basic requirement for beginners and needs supervision and proper guidance imho to avoid silly injuries.

[bennyvt]

are we talking about the heun sao in the third section with the jut sao and garn sao or are we talking about the wrist roll done after every movement.
I was talking the ones in the third section.

[Graham H]

Spencer if you or anybody else think that huen sau is for escaping grabs then you are living in dreamland!! I used to have the same ideas myself.

These things never happen in "real" fights. The chances of somebody grabbing your wrist is next to nothing. If somebody were to grab my wrist I would hit them with my other fist. If somebody were to try and grab both wrists (which is stupid) then I would have already landed several strikes. I think you should train with some people that will not co-operate with your funny circling actions. If somebody with an ounce of strength grabbbed your wrist I can assure that huen sau would be impossible.

[Grumblegeezer]

Seems a shame how differences of opinion so quickly degenerate into personal attacks. I believe someone can have a different opinion than I do without being a total idiot. Guess I'm a bit odd that way.

[Hendrik]

I don't want to start a linage debate or anything like that, but I've got a question and observation about a movement that occurs in most of the wing chun forms that is expressed a little differently family to family. Hopefully, I'll be able to be clear, I don't know all the Chinese terms that some of you clearly do. But, here goes:

Using Si Nim Tao as an example, anytime we heun sao at the end of a section and withdraw our elbow/hand back into it's chamber position, I notice that some families do this fairly linearly and others have more of a swoop, downward curving and then up into the chamber position. I've played with it both ways, but here's what started occurring to me. If I'm focusing my energy on my elbow, it really can't follow anything except it's natural pendulum arc unless I contort my shoulder, which I of course don't want to do. Once my elbow clears my body, then it can certainly start it's natural upswing. Conversely, as much as I like to think about pulling it straight back, I don't think that's physiologically possible without adjusting with my shoulder.

I have more freedom of movement with my forearm and hand of course, but if I should be focusing on my elbows as I think I should, then that's really superficial, right? It seems the most efficient thing to do is to let me hand be pulled naturally by the elbow, which should result in a fairly subtle arc.

The same type of movements, of course, exist in Chum Kiu and Bil Ge (sorry if I botch spelling of Chinese terms)

I'm curious as to how some of you view this. I think it's entirely possible that I'm missing something important, but I wanted to throw the question/observation out and see what you all thought.

Thanks in advance,



This is a classical case where the training is lost due to non nature applications and artificial disturbance.

The fact of that move is just so that it naturally loosing up every joints from the tip of the finger to the feet. That is the training to operate the joints in the whole body.

Set such as SLT is natural based as the top priority, applications are not the goal.

[ShortBridge]

I appreciate everyone's responses. I'll leave the debate on how to fight to you guys, let me try to clarify my original question. I have few different ideas about application and I do have a good sifu who I've discussed these things with, but I'm interested in broad perspective too. (which he encourages)

I originally decided not to link to videos because I didn't want to get into a discussion about who these people were or how their kung fu was, but I think an illustration would help. I also used SLT as an example, but I could have just as easily referenced the other forms. What I've observed is that some linage are loopier than others in this expression.

The term "pendulum" is just one that I applied after considering the physics of this movement. It's not one that I was taught. (nor was "loopier")

A disclaimer on these two videos: I don't know who these players are or what linage they are. I didn't watch either video all the way through, only the first bit to find examples of the expression I was trying to describe. So, I neither endorse nor suggest criticism of them, I'm just using them for examples. Had I looked a little longer, I could have found a dozen other examples of either type of expression, I just picked the first two that I thought showed it clearly and didn't start with a montage set to music or a speech.

The first is an example of someone appearing to come straight-ish back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MAFO7dGj3k

The second is an example of someone expressing a loop or sickle or arc or whatever we want to say in the withdrawal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs983q6ra8M

So, my original observation was that if I just observe the line of travel of the elbow from front to back, there is a natural line for it. It is neither straight nor overly curved. Because the bone between my elbow and shoulder is a fixed, inflexible object, if I keep my shoulder relaxed as we do, then the elbow can really only follow one path which is a shallow arc. The elbow is a pendulum, hung from my shoulder by a plumb line, which is my upper arm. I can mimic either a flat trajectory or a more dramatically curved one with my forearm, wrist and hand and I'm suggesting that that's what we see in these videos and others, but I can't really change the path that my elbow follows without doing something unnatural with my body or shoulder. Since I tend to think mostly about energy to and movement of my elbow, especially, but not exclusively to this section of this form (as an example), why would I chose one way or another of expressing my lower arm's path?

I'm not without my own ideas about it, but I'm interested in learning your perspectives.

Thanks again for your responses and I hope I've clarified my question somewhat.

[CFT]

I see what you mean Jon. Pretty much what I had in my mind when you first posted. I'd always been told the withdrawal was to develop elbow power (jaang dai lik). David Peterson does show an "application" as a rear elbow strike on his SNT DVD (related as an anecdote).

IMO, elbow does not travel in straight line, otherwise the shoulder rises like you say. Elbow needs to stay low, and drawn back with energy not in some lazy half-arsed way. The elbow is not chambered at the level of the armpit.

[bennyvt]

yeh we just call that the wrist roll and pull your elbow back.
It can be used as an elbow but normally done with pivoting to keep the line as straight as possible.

[Phil Redmond]

Fair enough. so what would you consider to be the application of a huen?
A Huen is used to move an opponent's arm from one side to the other (inside or outside). It's obvious on the Jong regardless of lineage. There are clips of many WC people demonstrating that application including WSL.

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer if you or anybody else think that huen sau is for escaping grabs then you are living in dreamland!! I used to have the same ideas myself.

I will re-post part of my original response for you Graham.

I learnt how to deflect wrist grabs with huensau as this is generally what women would experience. Now, I don't know about you, but I have seen an angry boyfriend grab his missus by the wrist plenty of times in an attempt to drag her off so the whole approach makes total sense to me. ;)

Once you've huen'd and grabbed the pullback can be seen as a cum la or seizing technique as long as you understand the mechanics of angling so you don't pull someone straight into your own face.

Elbow to behind, using huen to change inside/outside are all genuine methods too imho and so it stands to good reason as to why we repeat the technique at the end of every set. Its repeated for it's importance and can be trained throughout your Wing Chun journey...

[anerlich]

I'v used huen to strip grips in BJJ rolling effectively, go and no gi, though you usually have to employ the other hand as well, as you do in WC, or a foot or shin.

I agree with Phil's statement of huen's basic purpose.

[k gledhill]

I'v used huen to strip grips in BJJ rolling effectively, go and no gi, though you usually have to employ the other hand as well, as you do in WC, or a foot or shin.

I agree with Phil's statement of huen's basic purpose.

good insight into why we dont use huen sao like that, you said it yourself , it requires 2 hands and maybe even a foot to fight one grabbed wrist ....not a skill to develop.

I would bet guys are using tut sao aka shaving hands to escape grips too. :D like my instructor said to me " only a fool would think this ".

Huen is a transitional move from one action to another not an 'application' unto itself.

I have been wrist grabbed more times than I can count in REAL fights, bar/nightclub/ street-fights...never used a huen sao ;):D. Always accompanied with force and aggressive intent to do me harm. IOW its not a stand in front of each other calmly in class and do a nice calm wrist escape while we both just look at each other.
Sometimes a guy attacking would grab my leading wrist coming in low to avoid a strike from me,
I used a palm strike to back of head with good results, other times both my wrists got grabbed as they charged me trying to control my hands. I used a different approach in fighting from my own experiences that involves angling like toi ma to a seung ma step . A combo of chum kil shifting + turning to face , dynamic fighting with movement similar to WSL VT.
I use lan sao or bi gee lifting and lowering elbow to break grips AND re aquire positions as Im being bull charged at the same time , then flow with the guy as he passes my shift and slam into a wall or car then hit them or 'escort' them from the premises :D
We can all find a reason for huen, yours isnt mine.

When we turn a knife high to low the wrist huens , watch the 1st opening gang fight in the beginning of " Gangs of New York " and watch Daniel Day Lewis wield the chopper :D
NOW thats a huen sao :D:D hes got some good moves , huenchop and other hand stabs , next !
reminds me of VT knife.

[anerlich]

We can all find a reason for huen, yours isnt mine.

that's correct.

[k gledhill]

that's correct.


you use 2 hands to fight one. I try not to, so yes correct.

[anerlich]

you use 2 hands to fight one. I try not to, so yes correct.

I use two hands to drag the arm and nullify both it and the other with a cross-sleeve control followed by a sweep or moving to the back, generally. So to say I use 2 hands to fight one isn't the totality of what's going on and is somewhat disingenuous.

It works very well for me in a specific context against resisting opponents.


not a skill to develop

Opinions vary.

What you try or don't try to do is of secondary interest to my own experience and tuition. Despite your stellar background and legendary teachers.

[k gledhill]

I use two hands to drag the arm and nullify both it and the other with a cross-sleeve control followed by a sweep or moving to the back, generally. So to say I use 2 hands to fight one isn't the totality of what's going on and is somewhat disingenuous.

It works very well for me in a specific context against resisting opponents.



Opinions vary.

What you try or don't try to do is of secondary interest to my own experience and tuition. Despite your stellar background and legendary teachers.

I use two hands to scratch my a r s e.:D no skill there either.
But seriously, We do use 2 hands on occasions, but as a means to recover back to the skilled part of NOT having to. A skill I might add that you dont just do when you feel like it. Ergo your opponent wont be doing it back to you, so you can let them fight your one arm with their two, while your other arm is free to scratch your arse or other idea like hit them....or whatever it is your tuition gave you ; )

opinions are like ....we all have one.

[Sihing73]

We do use 2 hands on occasions, but as a means to recover back to the skilled part of NOT having to. A skill I might add that you dont just do when you feel like it. Ergo your opponent wont be doing it back to you, so you can let them fight your one arm with their two, while your other arm is free to scratch your arse or other idea like hit them....or whatever it is your tuition gave you ; )

opinions are like ....we all have one.

Funny, I always thought WC taught me to use two hands together. One may block while the other hits, but on some occassions you would use two hands together like the Pak Jarn Sau which some believe is an arm break. Also, anytime you wish to control rather than strike I would say you need to use two hands in concert and WC has plenty of control methods if one is open to them. Being a former cop I know I had to utilize control rather than strikes many times.

Of course the simplest response to any type of grab is to hit the opponent if you are able, but there are times when hitting simply is not an option. Then again I was always of the impression that it took more skill to control than to hit..................perhaps those who do not know how to utilize two hands together are unable to use control and maybe are of a lower skill level ;) :p:D

[k gledhill]

Funny, I always thought WC taught me to use two hands together. One may block while the other hits, but on some occassions you would use two hands together like the Pak Jarn Sau which some believe is an arm break. Also, anytime you wish to control rather than strike I would say you need to use two hands in concert and WC has plenty of control methods if one is open to them. Being a former cop I know I had to utilize control rather than strikes many times.

Of course the simplest response to any type of grab is to hit the opponent if you are able, but there are times when hitting simply is not an option. Then again I was always of the impression that it took more skill to control than to hit..................perhaps those who do not know how to utilize two hands together are unable to use control and maybe are of a lower skill level ;) :p:D

It isnt required that you have to hit a guy to control with one arm.;), we can control a bridge from refacing us with one or the other single arm as we also aim to hit with the SAME ARM...iow not grab the other guys wrist as a controlling lop while the other hits alone . Whether we hit or control with leading arm is our call. Because you DONT know this way you have little recourse but to ALWAYS use two hands to strike or control with one while the other hits aka using two hands to fight one....been there done that, threw it over my shoulder like the sack of sh t it was and , walked on....smiling I might add .

If you dont know how to use one arm to act like 2, you have no choice.
We use two hands for lop sao to wrist and elbow, like you said we can view it as an arm break BUT we dont, we see it as redirecting a line of force we can't turn with one hand ...iow we are forced to utilize two hands, stop attacking for a split second to make a guy look away , then recommence our attack one arm leading and recycling to attack again and so on.

[k gledhill]

I give up ! :D if you have 3 hands use them all at once :D

[imperialtaichi]

To test if any particular movement is correct, attach as much weight as you can handle to parts of the body and test the movement. The purpose is not for building the muscles, but to find how to move most effectively and efficiently. You are your own best teacher.

Cheers,
John

[anerlich]

opinions are like ....we all have one.


I have agreement with your expanded opinions, FWIW.


I give up ! if you have 3 hands use them all at once

One of the tenets of jiu jitsu is to ensure you are using all your limbs and grips at once. Generally not all on the same part of your opponents' body for significant periods, but in some situations the superiority of two against one is just what you need, especially against stronger people.

There is a double larp sao in bil jee, and in the dummy kicking set, IIRC. Lots of double blocks (or "interceptions" for the pedants) with the knives against the pole.

Though, yes, we did originally start this discussument about huen.

[LoneTiger108]

I learnt how to deflect wrist grabs with huensau as this is generally what women would experience...


I have been wrist grabbed more times than I can count in REAL fights, bar/nightclub/ street-fights...

:eek::D;)

After all, we are Wing Chun students right? We're in tune with our femininity!

[kung fu fighter]

To test if any particular movement is correct, attach as much weight as you can handle to parts of the body and test the movement. The purpose is not for building the muscles, but to find how to move most effectively and efficiently. You are your own best teacher.

Cheers,
John

I agree 100%, this is what I refer to as wing chun resistance training, and chi sao is a good drill to train this since you have the resistance of your partner to work with. WCK tools truely comes alive when trained in this way.

[ShortBridge]

we did originally start this discussument about huen.

I'm interested in everything that everyone has opined, but to clarify, I originally started this thread not about huen sao, but the path on which you withdraw following heun sao. Some linage seem to make it appear straight, others express a more semi-circular path. I was wondering what was behind that and observing that regardless of which way you do it in your family the elbow doesn't really have that freedom of expression as it is on a fixed pendulum from the shoulder.

Anyway, I'm okay with the divergences the responses have taken, it's all interesting, but since you mentioned it, I wanted to clarify my original question/observation in case anyone has any thoughts on that.

[anerlich]

I just pull that sucker back. THe rest is mostly mental masturbation.

[bennyvt]

lots of yip students tended to loop it. yip in the video's does. When I asked my teacher why he didn't do it like we do (straight as possible), he said he asked WSL why he did it more rounded. WSL said its supposed to be like this, doing like what we teach. He said he just got into a habit of doing it. You find lots of those little things that creep into your forms from watching other do it all the time.

[wingchunIan]

personally the bone between my shoulder and my elbow is a fixed length and it pivots in my shoulder joint. For all other humans anatomy should be the same and therefore the elbow is always following an arc.:D
In my lineage the focus is on the elbow and so the hand follows the natural path created by the movement of the upper arm, there is no extra looping added by extending the arm and no flattening of the arc by raising the shoulder or contracting the bicep. Can't see why people are getting so edgy about this though, the initial question was a good one, based on a fair observation and should be the kind of topic that its possible to discuss like civilised adults.
In other TCMA there are lots of nice circling flowery moves so maybe some people just feel a bit left out and want their form to look nicer:p

[ShortBridge]

Thanks for the response, Ian. That was my observation as well. We're a "focus on the elbow" family too, so we don't add any adornment there. Still I didn't want to discount the possibility that there might be a valid reason why (a lot) of branches do. Would still love to hear someone who does give that perspective.

I'm not sure why it's difficult to discuss things like this either. I feel like it was far from provocative or controversial, but it's an unfortunate part of the wing chun community.

Thanks to everyone who offered their honest responses, though.