NJ Governor Chris Christie tells it like it is

[BJJ-Blue]

On the March 22nd radio show 'Ask the Governor', Gov Chrisite fielded a question from Penny in Blackwood. The transcript is below:

PENNY: "I would like to know why you want to take at least 13% out of state employees' pay for health care. Between what my husband and I make, you're talking about $600 a month out of our money which is gonna cut into our food and our other bills. How do you expect us to live, governor?"

CHRISTIE: How I expect you to live, Penny, is you're gonna have to pick a different health plan that's not nearly as rich as the one you're getting now. That's how.

PENNY: Either that or you're force us to not have any health care.

CHRISTIE: No, I'm not gonna force you to not have any health care. I don't think that means forcing you to go without health care. But what it means is we can no longer afford to pay 90 plus percent of the cost of your health care. Public workers are getting their health insurance paid for out of your property taxes, and state workers are getting their health insurance paid for out of your income taxes. If I'm $67 billion in debt and you don't want me to take any more money out of your paycheck, how am I supposed to pay for it? Am I supposed to just raise taxes? Because if I raise taxes you're gonna pay more taxes, and if your property taxes go up, you're going to pay more taxes. I mean the money's gotta come from somewhere. We can't print it.

PENNY: "I realize that, but it seems like it's always coming from the poor and not the rich to make up for these shortfalls."

CHRISTIE: "Penny, the top 1% of taxpayers in this state pay 41% of the total income tax. The top 1% pay 41% of the income tax. So to say that the rich don't pay is just not true. How much do you want them to pay? There comes a point where you cannot have everything that you want. And as much as I would like to be able to say to you, "You know what, Penny, you're right, I don't want you to have to pay another nickel for your health insurance," I can't pay for it, and we already have the highest taxes in America. I gotta tell you the truth, your neighbor who works in the private sector pays a heck of a lot more for his or her health insurance than you do. And on the top of it they're paying the taxes to pay for your health insurance. And so I've got a problem to fix here. We're broke and I gotta fix this problem."

Source: (Includes audio and video)
http://millenniumradionj.com/AskTheGovernor/ask-gov-WKXWFM.html

[David Jamieson]

The rich should pay a flat tax of 25% across the board on all their taxable holdings.

I am not buying his line about 1% paying 41% of the taxes and I am pretty sure he can't table proof of that. He won't produce a record that accounts in that way and anyone who says the rich pay the most is delusional.

the working class has carried the taxes of the nation forever.
the rich will always be rich, but painting them as the source of tax funding is ridiculous.

Not to mention, if that were true, it is still unbalance and unfair.

And who were the idiots that decided 90% of health care for public employees would be covered gratis by taxes? Is that the employees fault or slack ass governance?

I think this dude is polishing a turd here in a desperate attempt to put blame on those who do not deserve it and who do deserve to be told the truth.

[MasterKiller]

I am not buying his line about 1% paying 41% of the taxes and I am pretty sure he can't table proof of that. He won't produce a record that accounts in that way and anyone who says the rich pay the most is delusional..

Almost half of Americans pay no federal taxes at all, which is bull****, because taxes pay for programs that benefit everyone.

Households making an average of $366,400 in 2006 paid about 73 percent of the income taxes collected by the federal government.

I'm sure state taxes work out about the same.

[BJJ-Blue]

I am not buying his line about 1% paying 41% of the taxes and I am pretty sure he can't table proof of that. He won't produce a record that accounts in that way and anyone who says the rich pay the most is delusional.

LMFAO at you. Anytime anyone disagrees with you they are wrong, despite their background/job/experience. The man is the friggin Governor, yet some Canadian knows better. Just like how you argue with Drake over US military facts. You're never wrong I guess.

How about you show proof the man is lying? That would buttress your argument in one fail swoop. But I'm sure you wont. You'll just keep attacking facts while producing no links/sources to refute them.


the working class has carried the taxes of the nation forever.
the rich will always be rich, but painting them as the source of tax funding is ridiculous.

I agree that the middle class is overtaxed, but to say the rich are not paying well over their fair share is incorrect. The top 1% pay 39% of all Federal taxes, and the top 25% pay 86% of all Federal taxes.


And who were the idiots that decided 90% of health care for public employees would be covered gratis by taxes? Is that the employees fault or slack ass governance?

New Jersey is a heavily Democratic State. I would blame the past Governors, Legislatures, and the unions. Of course the voters didn't help matters either, until they elected Mr Christie.


I think this dude is polishing a turd here in a desperate attempt to put blame on those who do not deserve it and who do deserve to be told the truth.

So tell us the truth then. Post links to show he is "polishing a turd".

What the man is doing is trying to save the State from bankruptcy. And so far New Jersey is alot better off after his 2 years as Governor than they were before he was elected. And he did it without printing money and by cutting spending.


Almost half of Americans pay no federal taxes at all, which is bull****, because taxes pay for programs that benefit everyone.

Households making an average of $366,400 in 2006 paid about 73 percent of the income taxes collected by the federal government.

I'm sure state taxes work out about the same.

You are correct.

Even scarier to consider is that those ~50% are voters too. And their voices count as much as yours, yet you pay taxes.

[Reality_Check]

That discussion with Governor Christie only touches on income taxes, which is a part of the story.


Well, this is interesting:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/22340.html

In the rush to file their federal income tax forms for tax year 2006, Americans may not look closely enough at their W-2s and may not realize the true economic incidence of payroll taxes; they may not realize that they probably paid more in federal payroll taxes than in federal income taxes last year. Most economists agree that virtually all of the payroll tax burden is borne by workers, even that portion that is legally paid by the employer. And so when we count that as a tax on the worker, we begin to realize that this 15.3 percent tax rate can be higher than the income tax rate that these individuals are paying; most of them lie below the Social Security cap ($97,500) and fall in the 10 and 15 percent taxable income brackets (with possibly some income being taxed at the 25 percent rate). Only for high-income earners or those who earn most of their income in non-wage form will their income tax burden exceed their payroll tax burden.

The Tax Foundation recently released a Fiscal Fact (http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/22287.html) looking at how different types of taxes weigh differently on different income groups. Among the study's highlights (from 2004 data):

For households in the bottom 20 percent of the income scale, the average payroll tax burden per household for tax year 2004 was $917, while the average federal income tax burden per household (excluding refundable portion of EITC) was $171.

For the middle income group, the average payroll taxes paid per household was nearly double the average federal income tax.

For the bottom 40 percent of households, property taxes, payroll taxes, and state/local general sales taxes was each a larger hit on households than the federal individual income tax.

The federal individual income tax is much more progressive than state/local income taxes. As a quick illustration, for every dollar in federal individual income taxes paid by the middle income group, the top quintile paid $7.86 in federal individual income taxes. At the state/local individual income tax level, that number was $5.36.

Individual income taxes at both the federal and state/local level drive the bulk of the progressivity in the entire tax system. As a quick illustration, for every dollar of total taxes paid by the middle income group in 2004 at all levels of government, the top quintile paid $3.87 in taxes. However, excluding all individual income taxes, that number drops to around $2.82.

The bottom quintile pays more in taxes on tobacco and alcohol (at all levels) than in federal individual income taxes, even after excluding the refundable portion of EITC.

For more on how different types of households are hit harder by different types of taxes, check out the full working paper (http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/2282.html) on which these numbers are based.

http://www.urban.org/publications/1001065.html

Two-Thirds of Tax Units Pay More Payroll Tax Than Income Tax

April 15 is synonymous with taxes in the United States, but most Americans actually pay more payroll taxes than federal income taxes. In 2006 workers and employers each paid 6.2 percent Social Security tax on the first $94,200 of earnings and 1.45 percent Medicare tax on all wages. While the statutory obligation to pay payroll taxes is split evenly between workers and employers, most economists believe that the employer tax usually translates into lower wages, so workers bear the full burden of the tax. Thus, the total payroll tax rate equals 15.3 percent of earnings for most workers.

About two-thirds of taxpayers owed more payroll taxes (including the employer portion) than individual income taxes in 2006. Many households (including most retirees) do not have any wage income and thus pay no payroll tax. Among households with wage earners, 86 percent have higher payroll taxes than income taxes, including almost all of those with incomes less than $40,000 and 94 percent of those with incomes less than $100,000. If only the employee portion of payroll taxes is considered, 44 percent of taxpayers and 56 percent of wage earners pay more payroll tax than income tax, including nearly 80 percent of earners with incomes less than $50,000.


As much as I tried to stay away...

Your article says nothing about payroll taxes, which make up the majority of the middle class tax burden. It's also dated October 13, 2008

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=882634&postcount=794



I'm referring to income taxes. They are BY FAR the largest percentage of taxes the middle class pays.

Actually, no (page 19, Chart 5)....

http://www.kc.frb.org/PUBLICAT/ECONREV/PDF/4q06davig.pdf

From my link: "Since payroll taxes are paid only up to a certain amount of income, payroll taxes comprise a larger share of the tax liability for low- and middle-income households versus high-income households. Mitrusi and Poterba (2000) estimated that payroll taxes were higher than federal income taxes for 44 percent of all U.S. households in 1979, and that percentage increased to 67 percent in 1999."


Once again you are stating that 40% of Americans pay no income tax. Let's stipulate that. However, I've already shown that:

"Since payroll taxes are paid only up to a certain amount of income, payroll taxes comprise a larger share of the tax liability for low- and middle-income households versus high-income households. Mitrusi and Poterba (2000) estimated that payroll taxes were higher than federal income taxes for 44 percent of all U.S. households in 1979, and that percentage increased to 67 percent in 1999."

So, the implication that these people do not pay into the system is suspect.


I'm talking about income tax, which is the biggest tax those who pay it pay.

Ah...but for low to middle income Americans the payroll tax is "the biggest tax those who pay it pay."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/nyregion/10christie.html


New Jersey’s public-sector unions routinely pressure the State Legislature to give them what they fail to win in contract talks. Most government workers pay nothing for health insurance. Concessions by school employees would have prevented any cuts in school programs last year.

Statements like those are at the core of Gov. Chris Christie’s campaign to cut state spending by getting tougher on unions. They are not, however, accurate.

[Reality_Check]

Even scarier to consider is that those ~50% are voters too. And their voices count as much as yours, yet you pay taxes.

And so do most of those ~50%. They just pay it in the form of payroll taxes, sales tax, property taxes, etc...

[Lucas]

i would gladly give up my right to vote if i didnt have to pay any taxes lol

[BJJ-Blue]

And so do most of those ~50%. They just pay it in the form of payroll taxes, sales tax, property taxes, etc...

I was talking about Federal income taxes. Based on the figure he used, I assume MK was too (but I can't put words in his mouth). Considering those are 10%-35% of your total yearly earnings, no one should be getting a free pass on those.

Keep in mind too, it's always conservatives who talk about instituting the 'Fair Tax', which would tax everyone at the same percentage, so if you make 10x what I do, you'll pay 10x the taxes I do.

[BJJ-Blue]

New Jersey’s public-sector unions routinely pressure the State Legislature to give them what they fail to win in contract talks. Most government workers pay nothing for health insurance. Concessions by school employees would have prevented any cuts in school programs last year.

Statements like those are at the core of Gov. Chris Christie’s campaign to cut state spending by getting tougher on unions. They are not, however, accurate.

He is not saying that. My transcript (and the video/audio) clearly show he said they only pay 10% of their healthcare costs, not 0% as you allege he says.

So don't put words in the man's mouth and then say he isn't accurate.

[Drake]

Isn't it a bit weird to punish people for being successful?

[sanjuro_ronin]

What is fedral tax in the US by the way ?
Here federal tax is income tax and everyone pays it (automatically deducted from wages)
The there is federal SALES tax ( GST) and everyone pays that too.

[Lucas]

here our federal tax is about one left nut, an ear and your right foot.

[Lucas]

Isn't it a bit weird to punish people for being successful?

but thats my american dream...

[sanjuro_ronin]

here our federal tax is about one left nut, an ear and your right foot.

Who pays it? is it deducted from your pay check?

[MasterKiller]

Who pays it? is it deducted from your pay check?

It's deducted automatically, but when you file taxes in April, many people get credits and deductions that are worth more than the taxes they paid. So they either get ALL of their taxes back, or in some cases, like Earned Income Credit (mostly for single moms), they get more back than they paid in.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's deducted automatically, but when you file taxes in April, many people get credits and deductions that are worth more than the taxes they paid. So they either get ALL of their taxes back, or in some cases, like Earned Income Credit (mostly for single moms), they get more back than they paid in.

AH, I see.
And how does one qualify for these credits?

[MasterKiller]

AH, I see.
And how does one qualify for these credits?

Various tax incentives.

Making less than a certain amount
Having X number of kids
College tuition reimbursement
Medical claims
Small business losses
blah blah blah

There are about a million things you can claim.

[BJJ-Blue]

Isn't it a bit weird to punish people for being successful?

Man, you're starting to sound like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and Neil Boortz! ;)

Seriously, this is exactly why socialism always fails. Why produce if it's just going to be taken from you and given to others who are not producing?

[Lucas]

i dont get back what i pay in personally. i get like 400 bucks back from fed when i file, and then owe state like 500 its stupid. federal alone takes 130 out of every check, thats 2300 a year. i dont own a home, no kids, not in school, dont make that much but enough that they want to rape my ass. total with holdings every month with medicare and all that jazz is around 600 bucks i dont see anything back cuz the state takes any return i get from feds plus some. i dont make that much money in the first place.

[MasterKiller]

Man, you're starting to sound like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and Neil Boortz! ;)

Seriously, this is exactly why socialism always fails. Why produce if it's just going to be taken from you and given to others who are not producing?

But the last thing rich people want is a flat tax. To get the same income, the rate would have to be around 19 or 20%. Not to mention, since the majority of corporations in America currently pay no taxes at all, they would suddenly get hit, forcing much higher prices in the market.

[BJJ-Blue]

i dont get back what i pay in personally. i get like 400 bucks back from fed when i file, and then owe state like 500 its stupid. federal alone takes 130 out of every check, thats 2300 a year. i dont own a home, no kids, not in school, dont make that much but enough that they want to rape my ass. total with holdings every month with medicare and all that jazz is around 600 bucks i dont see anything back cuz the state takes any return i get from feds plus some. i dont make that much money in the first place.

If you work and make enough to support yourself without Gov't aid, you'll get screwed. IMO, it's really that simple. The only way to solve it is to not vote Democrat until they start moving back to the center (as they were when JFK was a Democrat).

The Democrats really did used to be the Party for the "working man". Now they are the Party for the non-working man.


But the last thing rich people want is a flat tax. To get the same income, the rate would have to be around 19 or 20%. Not to mention, since the majority of corporations in America currently pay no taxes at all, they would suddenly get hit, forcing much higher prices in the market.

I don't agree that most corporations don't pay taxes. Remember, we have some of the highest corporate taxes (if not the highest) in the world.

And the flat tax would not affect corporations at all, as it would only be applied to individual income taxes. Of course those persons who hold stock in corporations would have to pay taxes on their market/capitol gains.

Are you for or against a Flat Tax? I myself am, if ALL of a person's income is added up and they pay the flat rate on all of it. No tax shelters, no varying rates on different types of incomes, etc.

[MasterKiller]

I don't agree that most corporations don't pay taxes. Remember, we have some of the highest corporate taxes (if not the highest) in the world.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/08/12/us-usa-taxes-corporations-idUSN1249465620080812

The Government Accountability Office said 72 percent of all foreign corporations and about 57 percent of U.S. companies doing business in the United States paid no federal income taxes for at least one year between 1998 and 2005.



And the flat tax would not affect corporations at all, as it would only be applied to individual income taxes. Of course those persons who hold stock in corporations would have to pay taxes on their market/capitol gains. Yes it would. Most flat tax models have an individual bracket and a corporation bracket.


Are you for or against a Flat Tax? I myself am, if ALL of a person's income is added up and they pay the flat rate on all of it. No tax shelters, no varying rates on different types of incomes, etc. Personally, I'd rather see a federal income tax. Taxing spending instead of working seems more fair to me.

[MasterKiller]

http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/01/ge-exxon-walmart-business-washington-corporate-taxes.html

The most egregious example is General Electric ( GE - news - people ). Last year the conglomerate generated $10.3 billion in pretax income, but ended up owing nothing to Uncle Sam. In fact, it recorded a tax benefit of $1.1 billion.

Avoiding taxes is nothing new for General Electric. In 2008 its effective tax rate was 5.3%; in 2007 it was 15%. The marginal U.S. corporate rate is 35%.

[Drake]

Man, you're starting to sound like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and Neil Boortz! ;)

Seriously, this is exactly why socialism always fails. Why produce if it's just going to be taken from you and given to others who are not producing?

If you make that correlation again, I swear the internet will start getting very intense for you.

[Lucas]

Anonymous!!!!

[David Jamieson]

Why produce if it's just going to be taken from you and given to others who are not producing?

why feed your family? Why bother having kids, they are just a burden on your wallet? Why have schools and hospitals and libraries and parks?
Why have a unified society on many levels?
Why care about your fellow citizens or your fellow humans at all?
To those who cannot help themselves, let them perish right?
To those who are unable to lift themselves up, deny them the tools to do so!

On the other hand, you can be upright and think beyond your small circle and look at the greater society as a whole and want to contribute to it altruistically and with great efforts.

Socialism has many favourable aspects. It has aspects that are not favourable, but for me, that is all the political and transitional to communism stuff which is where it becomes about control of a populace more than the common good.

moderation in all things is the way.

[BJJ-Blue]

Personally, I'd rather see a federal income tax. Taxing spending instead of working seems more fair to me.

I'm all for that idea too. But don't you mean a Federal Sales Tax?


The most egregious example is General Electric ( GE - news - people ). Last year the conglomerate generated $10.3 billion in pretax income, but ended up owing nothing to Uncle Sam. In fact, it recorded a tax benefit of $1.1 billion.

Avoiding taxes is nothing new for General Electric. In 2008 its effective tax rate was 5.3%; in 2007 it was 15%. The marginal U.S. corporate rate is 35%.

You are correct.

But you do know that their CEO is in bed with the community organizer's Administration, right? In February 2009, Jeffrey Immelt was appointed as a member to the President's Economic Recovery Advisory Board to provide the President and his Administration with advice and counsel in fixing America's economic downturn. So I guess the community organizer feels a guy whose company is the poster child for a corporation dodging taxes is the guy to turn around this country. So if the guy in charge of the economic recovery feels that corporations don't have to pay taxes, on whose backs do you think he will tell the President to fix the economy with?

This is exactly why I despise the community organizer, the rampant hypocracy. He is always blasting the rich for not paying their fair share, then he appoints a CEO of a corporation that doesn't pay near their fair share to an important economic position.

[BJJ-Blue]

If you make that correlation again, I swear the internet will start getting very intense for you.

Ok, you're strarting to sound like Sarah Palin. ;)

[BJJ-Blue]

On the other hand, you can be upright and think beyond your small circle and look at the greater society as a whole and want to contribute to it altruistically and with great efforts.

I have. I don't mind helping those who help themselves. But we are not doing that. We are seeing politicans buy votes with my, MKs, Drake's, etc tax dollars. And that's wrong. If they really wanted to help people rise out of poverty with a helping hand, why are there more people in poverty now than before the Great Society was implemented? Why is the illigitimacy rate higher now than before? Why are we now 3-4 generations deep in welfare and the recipients still want even more money?

[MasterKiller]

I'm all for that idea too. But don't you mean a Federal Sales Tax? Yeah, I meant sales tax.


But you do know that their CEO is in bed with the community organizer's Administration, right? In February 2009, Jeffrey Immelt was appointed as a member to the President's Economic Recovery Advisory Board to provide the President and his Administration with advice and counsel in fixing America's economic downturn. So I guess the community organizer feels a guy whose company is the poster child for a corporation dodging taxes is the guy to turn around this country. So if the guy in charge of the economic recovery feels that corporations don't have to pay taxes, on whose backs do you think he will tell the President to fix the economy with?

This is exactly why I despise the community organizer, the rampant hypocracy. He is always blasting the rich for not paying their fair share, then he appoints a CEO of a corporation that doesn't pay near their fair share to an important economic position.

When 57% of corporations DO NOT pay their fare share, it's hard to get public sector help from a source that does.

[David Jamieson]

What's weird is not being punished for being successful but rather that a corporation can be a legal entity like a person and yet it is a puppet that is controlled from outside and can vanish when it comes time to pay the piper.

That is infinitely weirder.

...and scummy at the base of it. :)

It validates illegitimacy in law in the run off events.

[BJJ-Blue]

When 57% of corporations DO NOT pay their fare share, it's hard to get public sector help from a source that does.

He still has the other 43% of corporations to choose from. And not only did he choose from the bad 57%, he chose the WORST one of ALL the corporations.

As tot he Federal Sales Tax, it is perfect and fair imo. You spend 10x more on stuff than I do, you pay 10x the taxes I do. Even the 'class warfare' types should be on board too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Income tax is a horrific thing but it is a cash cow for the government, they get a steady stream of income, here it is even deducted out of your unemployment chq. LOL !
I agree that a flat tax on all items is the best way to go, giving people back their money will just mean that they spend it.
I mean, what would YOU do if you have all the money that was deducted from your pay check that you never get to see? in some cases its 10's of 1000's of dollars.
You would spend more that is what you would do and that means:
Economy is stimulated with consumer spending AND government gets taxes anyways.

[BJJ-Blue]

What's weird is not being punished for being successful but rather that a corporation can be a legal entity like a person and yet it is a puppet that is controlled from outside and can vanish when it comes time to pay the piper.

That is infinitely weirder.

...and scummy at the base of it. :)

It validates illegitimacy in law in the run off events.

That's partially true. But you have to consider that the investors who make up the corporation all have to pay Income and Capitol Gains taxes related to the corporation.

[BJJ-Blue]

I mean, what would YOU do if you have all the money that was deducted from your pay check that you never get to see? in some cases its 10's of 1000's of dollars.
You would spend more that is what you would do and that means:
Economy is stimulated with consumer spending AND government gets taxes anyways.

You've just explained how and why Reaganomics/conservatism works.

It is ridiculous that they tax people's unemployment checks, but not welfare checks.

[Syn7]

What's weird is not being punished for being successful but rather that a corporation can be a legal entity like a person and yet it is a puppet that is controlled from outside and can vanish when it comes time to pay the piper.

That is infinitely weirder.

...and scummy at the base of it. :)

It validates illegitimacy in law in the run off events.

word.......... it aint right.....