Knees.

[David Jamieson]

Not using them as a striking tool, but rather I have another question.

I have heard several people complain about knee problems from Kung Fu practice.

I myself have been a practitioner of Traditional Chinese martial arts, particularly Sil Lum Kung Fu for the better part of 2 decades and I cna honestly say, I've never experienced an issue with my knees.

North Shaolin or Southern, I simply have not encountered a knee problem.

In some of your opinions, what is it that is going wrong? Is teh student genetically inferior? Is the student doing something wrong? Is the teacher teaching something wrong?

What's up with the bad knees? I don't understand because it's never even mildly happened to me.

I pulled my back doing a grueling CNY Lion Dance march once, but that's it outside of bumps and scrapes lumps and bruises from mix ups etc.

so, why? anyone have any ideas what could be happening here?

[Lucas]

I have the opposite experience. i messed my left knee up when i was younger from skateboarding, but when i started training kungfu my strength and flexability increased significantly to the point that i can lower and raise myself on that leg. i took a somewhat extended period of time off and i noticed the knee reverting slowly back to its old state, cleared up when i went back into training.

it is not 100% but i know without a doubt that the kungfu training keeps it strong and as best as it can be without having a surgery.

[Lucas]

i think modern wushu has something to do with it. ive noticed there is a lot of fusion with modern and trad training. a lot of the modern stuff can F u up real bad if you progress faster than your body can handle...ive seen more than one acl pop from people studying contemp material.

[Punch.HeadButt]

I think a large part of it is people are taught and told to perform certain stances that can put a large amount of strain on the knees when done incorrectly when the student isn't ready for it. Going through motion that drops you into Pu Bu and brings you back up isn't something you should be doing on your first day if you are not already a fairly athletic person. If you've been a couch potato all your life and just decide to start kung fu because it looks cool, and you're immediately worked through those low stances, sweeps and transitions, it'll do damage (in my thinking, I'm not a med. professional). I think this is mostly a problem in heavily form-based schools, as making the forms look good is what they strive for and pressure their students into.

The knees need to be strong before you start expecting them to support those stances, IMO.

[YouKnowWho]

what is it that is going wrong?

Don't twist your knee. Many peole hurt their knee because some of their bow-arrow stance has left foot point west but right foot point northeast (instead of northwest). This will cause a twisting on the right knee. Few years later, that right knee will have problem.

The outer horse stance will have the same problem.

http://scienceblogs.com/zooillogix/karate%20chimp.jpg

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Knee problems are common in all sports, but as far as Kung Fu if could be from deep stance training, cartilage break up from years of thowing kicks, damage from a throw or sweep, incorrect or poor stretching, I mean there are a lot of variables and what ifs that can go into a knee injury. And genetics could play a factor too. But back to my original statement, all sports, activities, exercises, ect. knee injuries are common, it's just how it is.

Continuous tension or strain is not good. My uncle laid carpet for several years and now can barely walk from the constant pressure put on him.

[Shaolinlueb]

i had bad knees from a track accident in high school. kung fu helped get rid of a lot of the pain actually. then when i had my lapse in training, my pain started to come back. i keep my hips flexible and my legs strong and they are getting better.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are many factors that can lead to knee problems and most of then are genetic, some people are born with "bad knees" or at least with a greater potential for bad knees.
Injury never helps, that's for sure.
I have bad knees, buT I don't know if it was from years of MA like karate and judo ( too much kneeling, lol) or from injuries while playing football, but I do know that as a young one I already had knee pains that were a result from instability in the knee area.
I am sure that predisposed me to it, but there is also the fact that it never held me back in my ability to run or kick, not at all.
As a teenager I was in the top 10 in the 100 and 60 meter sprints.

[Lucas]

i dont study bjj, but ive heard from friends that its hard on the knees. one guy i know quit studying after 5 years because he said it was messing his knees up.

[Frost]

i dont study bjj, but ive heard from friends that its hard on the knees. one guy i know quit studying after 5 years because he said it was messing his knees up.

juo is hard on the knees, BJJ is hard on the groin and hip flexors

[David Jamieson]

juo is hard on the knees, BJJ is hard on the groin and hip flexors

Boxing can be hard on the face. :p

[Frost]

Boxing can be hard on the face. :p

smartar$e :)

To attempt a sensible answer the knee is a complex joint hich has an awful lot of force and weight put upon it on a day to da basis....added to this it affected by tightness in the hip flexers, glutes IT band etc, so knee problems can be caused by a number of factors not directly related to the integrity of the knee itself

[taai gihk yahn]

smartar$e :)

To attempt a sensible answer the knee is a complex joint hich has an awful lot of force and weight put upon it on a day to da basis....added to this it affected by tightness in the hip flexers, glutes IT band etc, so knee problems can be caused by a number of factors not directly related to the integrity of the knee itself

QFT +1,000,000

if someone comes in with knee pain not the result of direct trauma, if you only treat the knee, you are going to loose; feet, ankles, tib/fib, ITB, HS, hips, pelvis, sacrum / iliac, lumbars, heck, even thoracics, shoulders and in some rare occasions, temporal bones (really) can be at the "root" (with all sort of issues inbetween); the knees are the whipping boy, because they are designed to mostly move in the saggital plane / around a tranvserse axis, so don't compensate well for force vectors in other planes / around other axes;

the good news is that if you fix the other stuff well, the knee issue can decrease dramatically;

of course, if you blow out your ACL, it's a different story...

addeddum - glutes are almost never "tight", as opposed to HS, psoas, ITB - they are more often inhibited as a result of the aforementioned hyper-facilitated flexor muscles; you have to disinhibt and get them going again so that they function properly during gait to get good forward propulsion via closed chain hip extension during mid to late stance phase, which is when hamstrings should be turned off after eccentrically slowing knee extension during terminal swing phase (many people fire hammies to propell fwd, bec HS are weak hip flexors, which is one reason the knee can get upset)

[Frost]

QFT +1,000,000

if someone comes in with knee pain not the result of direct trauma, if you only treat the knee, you are going to loose; feet, ankles, tib/fib, ITB, HS, hips, pelvis, sacrum / iliac, lumbars, heck, even thoracics, shoulders and in some rare occasions, temporal bones (really) can be at the "root" (with all sort of issues inbetween); the knees are the whipping boy, because they are designed to mostly move in the saggital plane / around a tranvserse axis, so don't compensate well for force vectors in other planes / around other axes;

the good news is that if you fix the other stuff well, the knee issue can decrease dramatically;

of course, if you blow out your ACL, it's a different story...

i love it when you do this :)

we have a PT that grapples at our club and it amazes me how many issues are NOT caused by where the pain is felt but by another part of the body and the movement patterns used to compensate for that injury

[xcakid]

I have bad knees, but it is not due to stances, wushu, etc. It is due to Sanda training and competing when I was young. I have dislocated lft knee. Has had ligament tears in both knees, numerous of them throughout my training.

I also have chondromalacia from running. And after a 10yrs hiatus from CMA and returning 4yrs ago. I developed tendonitis on both knees. Also over the past 4yrs, I have torn a meniscus and currently nursing a torn MCL.

Yes I am 42 and still sparring. HARD! :D

[mig]

Yes I am 42 and still sparring. HARD! :D


Wait until you reach 50 and we will talk. If we don't care about our knees at early age then expect bad results when you grow older. Pain happens for a reason.

[David Jamieson]

My recovery time is ridiculous now that I'm hitting 47.
But I don't have any joint problems per se.

I think perhaps there is a lot to do with genetics at play here.

Although, I think I understand where the long time grapplers can get messed up in the joints.

I think maybe the structure is incorrect for those who are practicing tcma only.

Thanks for replies. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I will be 42 this year and I still train and spar hard.
I also hurt hard, complain hard and drink and eat HARD !!
:D

[David Jamieson]

I will be 42 this year and I still train and spar hard.
I also hurt hard, complain hard and drink and eat HARD !!
:D

well at your age, you may as well have other stuff all hard and such... :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

well at your age, you may as well have other stuff all hard and such... :D

BBWWAHHHHH !!!
******* !
:mad:

[Lucas]

i hear they make drugs for that... :p

[YouKnowWho]

The only time that I hurt my knee was when I put ankle weight on and ran long distance.

[taai gihk yahn]

i love it when you do this :)
you don't help matter at all by encouraging me, lol...


it amazes me how many issues are NOT caused by where the pain is felt but by another part of the body and the movement patterns used to compensate for that injury

the day the light went on was when I finally "got" the idea that the stuck part, area of the hypomibility (e.g. - a vertebral segment, the hip joint at some part of its range, etc.), isn't going to hurt because it ain't moving! - the stuff that hurts is what has to move too much / at the "wrong" time, in a relatively non-physiological manner to make up for the stuck part; thus it gets irritated / overused / inflammed; and if you go treating those symptoms as such, you will either get a recurrence there in a short while, or even more fun, something else will start hurting because you've shifted the load, so to speak - then you get into the game of chasing symptoms all over the place, which is an exercise in futility and gets everyone frustrated...

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1PkFKqrq6yA/ScJ-g64i50I/AAAAAAAACN0/mWlhPjlAWIE/s400/SMART%2BASS.jpg

[Hardwork108]

....In some of your opinions, what is it that is going wrong? Is teh student genetically inferior? Is the student doing something wrong? Is the teacher teaching something wrong?
It is and always will be about the instruction, ie, the TEACHER!

[Frost]

It is and always will be about the instruction, ie, the TEACHER!

no its not it is and always will be about the individual and their body

your teacher can be an authentic master, if he's not a PT or other professional and his student has problems due to bad or compensating movement patterns he is on a hiding to nothing

[Lucas]

some people just suck. genetics, mental incompetence, dedication, etc. :p

[Lee Chiang Po]

It is probably something involving being over weight and sperodically working out really hard like it is going to make a difference. If you feel pain and strain in your knee, or any joint for that matter, you need to stop doing that particular thing. If it hurts, it is not natural. And if it isn't natural you probably shouldn't be doing it. A big fat man riding a big wide horse only on occasion when he feels inspired to do so is a recipe for injury.

[bawang]

some people just suck. genetics, mental incompetence, dedication, etc. :p

they are WEEK

[Violent Designs]

My knees/legs are very slightly bowl-legged, but even the very slight curvature causes the insides of my knee to experience "strain" when I try to sit in a low horse stance.

This was especially bad as my first teacher and most friends/sihings/acquaintances would tell me that both my feet must be facing straight forward, perpendicular to my body.

Well, maybe I just suck and don't have good ankle flexibility, but this HURTS my knee joints if I try to force my feet to point straight, and to be flat on both feet.

Truth be told, I stopped doing it this way because I didn't want to screw up my knees.

This really only applies to a low horse stance, but for me, it was always more difficult than someone with perfectly straight legs (no curvature).

So I don't really give a sh1t anymore if someone says my low horse is "bad" because no, I'm not risking destroying my knees just to make you happy. That said, I don't really train low horse anymore at all, so this doesn't affect me anymore.

[SteveLau]

Human knee is a weak spot by design. It takes great stress much of the time in our daily life. To stay within the context of MA training, overtraining and poor technique are two major causes of knee injury. As other forum member has mentioned, modern Wushu is by large makes students susceptible to injury because it is very demanding on their atheletic condition. IMHO, it is too demanding.


P.S. I have had an ITB injury on my left leg since 2002. It has just officially recovered this month


KC
Hong Kong

[YouKnowWho]

Human knee is a weak spot by design.

What's the best target to attack if your opponent is big, heavy, and strong? It's not his head, or groin area, it's his knee. It doesn't take much to twist your opponent's knee sideway in combat and stop the fight.

[Ben Gash]

It's a number of factors. Yes, some places teach stances that place too much stress on the knee, some places do too much air kicking with flawed technique, but also a lot of places have a poor understanding of sports medicine and combine excessive quad work with excessive hamstring stretching which is a recipe for knee pain.

[SteveLau]

As for who is to blame for causing such knee injuries in training, IMHO, the teacher and student are to be blamed most of the times. More often, the teacher is to be blamed than the student.



some places do too much air kicking with flawed technique

by Ben Gash


This is an example of knee injury cause - for example, air kicking with maximum power often.




KC
Hong Kong

[Lee Chiang Po]

Any stance should feel natural. If you insist on doing the low horse or even the horse at all, you need to have your feet pointed in the same direction the knee points. The knee only bends in one direction, and if you feel stress on it you are doing it wrong.
If you do a wide and low horse stance, and if the feet are pointed directly straight you have to bend the knee over to the side, which the knee is not designed to do. You do it enough and it will start complaining to you.

[Eric Olson]

When I did CLF we turned the front foot of our bow stance slightly inward to shield from groin kicks. Unfortunately this puts a lot of strain on the outside of the knee. In Taiji the femur and the foot are always in alignment. I think this is true of Northern Shaolin as well.

Another problem is that people let their knees go beyond their toes when shifting into stance eg bow stance. Your knee should never go beyond the top of your foot as it puts forward strain on the joint (instead of downward).

This is a flexibility issue and not everyone has the flexibility to hold deep stances correctly. So it's better to do a medium height stance that has the correct alignment.

EO

[SteveLau]

When I did CLF we turned the front foot of our bow stance slightly inward to shield from groin kicks. Unfortunately this puts a lot of strain on the outside of the knee. by Eric Olson


Yep, the correct way to shield from groin kicks is turn our thigh, and not the foot slightly inward.



Another problem is that people let their knees go beyond their toes when shifting into stance eg bow stance. Your knee should never go beyond the top of your foot as it puts forward strain on the joint (instead of downward).

by Eric Olson


Yep, I have experimented with the bow stance before. When the knee of the front leg passes over the toes, it shift our body weight too much forward. It will strain our front lower leg and foot.



KC
Hong Kong

[PalmStriker]

Wait until you reach 50 and we will talk. If we don't care about our knees at early age then expect bad results when you grow older. Pain happens for a reason. Going to turn 59 tomorrow (stalking 60). Find I have a number of physical issues closing in on me, time to conserve and consolidate strengths for maximum power outburst in time of need. Agree with keeping the knees strong through conditioning (if damaged, time out). Want to be the old man (75-85) in the park demonstrating the "Dragon returns to Earth set". :D