Skill vs. Strength/speed

[Eric Olson]

As someone who has practiced external and internal martial arts I think internal is the superior path. Why?

Because internal arts are not dependent on strength(or speed really). They are a pure expression of skill. As you age (and everyone does, including you 20-somethings!) you naturally lose strength and you would be at a disadvantage compared to the young and strong.

That being said...what do you do when you encounters someone that is more skilled than you are? Curl up in a ball and die? Get the crap beat out of you?

No, that's why it's still important to build up strength and stamina as a fail safe. If you want to be a well-rounded fighter than you need to be in decent shape if you meet an opponent that has more skill. Ideally every fight would be ended with one punch, one kill. Anyone that's put on gloves and gone a few rounds knows this is nothing more than an ideal.

But on the external side...why not try to be more efficient? Why build big muscles that slow you down and gas you out? Why not try to be as efficient in your movement so that you don't have to? Relying on skill first, strength and speed second.

That's where I'm at in my training. Where are you?

EO

[David Jamieson]

I don't believe in internal.

So, that's my comment. :)

[Eric Olson]

I don't believe in internal.

So, that's my comment. :)

Do you believe in skill? :)

EO

[David Jamieson]

Do you believe in skill? :)

EO

Yes of course, I don't believe that skill resides where there is not strength, stamina and conditioning.

Unless we're talking needlepoint.

the concept of "internal" is erroneous.

you are a whole being. there are no secrets and yin fu was full of himself.

[YouKnowWho]

Relying on skill first, strength and speed second.
Let's give a definition to "skill". IMO, skill is:

1. 時間(Shi Jian) - timing,
2. 机会(Ji Hui) - opportunity,
3. 角度(Jiao Du) - angle,
4. 力的使用(Li De Shi Yong) - force,
5. 平衡(Ping Heng) - balance.

There is only so far that you can do with your skill, but strength will have no limitation. You will lose your speed, endurance, flexibility, balance when you get old. But you will never lose your strength. If you can bench press 250 lb when you are 30, you may still be able to do that when you are 80 if you keep doing that all your life. Strength is the only think that you can depend on when you get old.

You will need "finish moves" to end a fight. Those "finish moves" are:

- punch to the head,
- kick to the nuts,
- elbow lock on the arm,
- head smash with your throw.

They all require "strength". No matter how good you are in your "internal" stuff such as yield, Sung, sticky, follow, sink, ... you just can't "yield" your opponent to death.

[Hebrew Hammer]

That's usually the belief of those who are lacking in speed and strength...not that this belief is false, but it is only part of the answer. There is a time and place for everything, and I certainly would not sacrifice training for speed and strength, only to focus on 'Internal' skills.

In my opinion, you must maximize your strengths, train for diversity of skills and be adaptable to the situation at hand. The mind, your mind is your most powerful foe and your greatest ally. Why limit yourself?

That being said, it is not practical to believe you will be good in all areas of martial arts, some of us have natural affinities to one skill set or another, a favorite technique, a weapon that feels like an extension of yourself.

I guess your path to martial truth is your own, I believe in the balance of things, the middle road, I'd rather be a Jack of all trades and a Master of none.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You need skill to get strong, you certainly need skill to be fast, everything requires technique.
At different points in your MA "career", you will focus/priortize something over the others, but ALL are important facets of a complete MA.

Considering the small part MA ACTUALLY play in our day-to-day lives, perhaps far more crucial is WHAT is a MORE benefit to us on a daily basis?
The ability to kick ass?
The ability to run fast and catch a bus?
The ability to carry something heavy?

[SPJ]

you just can't "yield" your opponent to death.

yes, timing, position, angle, speed, and strength/force are all needed.

if you may do all of the above in an efficient way or least effort way.

we call it skill.

so skill at timing

skill at positioning

skill at speed

skill at strenght

skill at all of the above.

speed comes with practice

for strength, there is a limit of our anatomy, or ceiling effect

right strength at right position at right time, thy name is skill.

:)

[Eric Olson]

I guess my point is that a lot of what we see as "martial arts" is jumping around, yelling and sweating a lot. Ok, good for you. It's probably a good cardio workout.

But anyone that's "sparred", and I'll use that term liberally, knows that you gas out fast if you're not efficient.....ooooorrrr....you can train to the point where you're in such good shape that those inefficiencies don't phase you much.

I think this is the real split between internal/external. Do we strengthen what we already have to the point we're stronger/faster/fitter than the opponent or do we fundamentally change the way we move/fight for maximum efficiency?

There's probably a happy medium in there somewhere. But how can you reconcile those two modes of training? Personally, I think it is to train in efficient techniques/skills but also be generally fit and strong.

So right now I'm working on my Taiji but also doing things like running and strength training with body weight.
EO

[Eric Olson]

Let's give a definition to "skill". IMO, skill is:

1. 時間(Shi Jian) - timing,
2. 机会(Ji Hui) - opportunity,
3. 角度(Jiao Du) - angle,
4. 力的使用(Li De Shi Yong) - force,
5. 平衡(Ping Heng) - balance.



Cool. Thanks for that.




There is only so far that you can do with your skill, but strength will have no limitation. You will lose your speed, endurance, flexibility, balance when you get old. But you will never lose your strength. If you can bench press 250 lb when you are 30, you may still be able to do that when you are 80 if you keep doing that all your life. Strength is the only think that you can depend on when you get old.

You are joking right?



You will need "finish moves" to end a fight. Those "finish moves" are:

- punch to the head,
- kick to the nuts,
- elbow lock on the arm,
- head smash with your throw.

They all require "strength". No matter how good you are in your "internal" stuff such as yield, Sung, sticky, follow, sink, ... you just can't "yield" your opponent to death.

Hmmm...I don't think you need to be strong to do any of those. Maybe punch to the head.

EO

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


I don't believe in internal.

So, that's my comment. :)
Odd, isn't it? Internal doesn't believe in you, either.. that aside, though.. 'internal training', when based on traditional fighting skills rather than woo-woo chi-balls, is a formidable weapon in a fighter's arsenal.. i suffer no illusions as to the availability of high quality internal training, or Taiji training that includes non-compliant interactive skill training, but.. having been fortunate to train with such a group, i am convinced of the practicality of Taiji principles and many of the techniques (not all)..

The great misfortune of Taiji is that it has been co-opted as the 'New Age' connection to something 'Chinese', or something 'Taoist', losing its historical Martial fundamentals..


... you just can't "yield" your opponent to death.
No, but.. you can yield until the oponent has to 'choose what to do', adjust forward or retreat, this is the 'opportunity'..

It's always interesting to note how dismissive people can be about things that 'they' can't make work in their paradigm.. i find external training AND internal training to BOTH be beneficial for a well-rounded Martial Artist.. but, unfortunately, not too may 'fighters' aren't interested in anything but decisive and destructive conclusions, which.. should be a well-trained option in the arsenal, but.. so should carefully neutralizing an opponent, and.. developing the skill to discern when those options are appropriate..

Be well..

[YouKnowWho]

You are joking right?

An old boxer may lose his speed and won't be able to fight for 15 rounds, but his punch may still knock his opponent down. That's "Gong Li - power behind the punch (strength)".


you can yield until the oponent has to 'choose what to do', adjust forward or retreat, this is the 'opportunity'..
If you are

- stronger than your opponent, you can use your own force to end the fight.
- not stronger than your opponent, you have to borrow your opponent's force.

Will it be nice if you are as rich as Bill Gates and never have to borrow money from the bank?

- A XingYi guy will say, "I'll run you down no matter you like it or not".
- A Taiji guy will say, "It you don't move, I won't move."

Who will has better fighting spirit?

[bawang]

The great misfortune of Taiji is that it has been co-opted as the 'New Age' connection to something 'Chinese', or something 'Taoist', losing its historical Martial fundamentals..


tai chi isnt internal.

[Eric Olson]

tai chi isnt internal.

Born in Ixelles, Belgium, Audrey Hepburn spent her childhood chiefly in the Netherlands, including German-occupied Arnhem, Netherlands, during the Second World War. She studied ballet in Arnhem and then moved to London in 1948, where she continued to train in ballet and worked as a photographer's model.

EO

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


tai chi isnt internal.
Taiji is not bound by your opinions.. the internal/external debate is unfortunate, two paths to the same place, many get lost on both paths.. more on the 'Taiji' path, though..

Be well..

[bawang]

tai chi not bound me? tai chi not bound me? I AM TAI CHI

theres no such thing as taijiquan . it doesnt exist.

[YouKnowWho]

You don't have to be strong to be "good" but you have to be strong to be the "best". When you go to a tournament and you believe that you may be the strongest person there, you will have good chance to win that day.

[Lucas]

you don't have to be strong to be "good" but you have to be strong to be the "best". When you go to a tournament and you believe that you may be the strongest person there, you will have good chance to win that day.

qft

4567890

[Shaolin]

As someone who has practiced external and internal martial arts I think internal is the superior path. Why?

Because internal arts are not dependent on strength(or speed really). They are a pure expression of skill. As you age (and everyone does, including you 20-somethings!) you naturally lose strength and you would be at a disadvantage compared to the young and strong.

That being said...what do you do when you encounters someone that is more skilled than you are? Curl up in a ball and die? Get the crap beat out of you?

No, that's why it's still important to build up strength and stamina as a fail safe. If you want to be a well-rounded fighter than you need to be in decent shape if you meet an opponent that has more skill. Ideally every fight would be ended with one punch, one kill. Anyone that's put on gloves and gone a few rounds knows this is nothing more than an ideal.

But on the external side...why not try to be more efficient? Why build big muscles that slow you down and gas you out? Why not try to be as efficient in your movement so that you don't have to? Relying on skill first, strength and speed second.

That's where I'm at in my training. Where are you?

EO

You made absolutely no debate on skill vs strength and speed. Your argument is about internal versus external. Are you saying that an "external" practitioner doesn't train accuracy or precision?

[David Jamieson]

Tai Chi Bob, you are a passve aggressive hippy.

Can you live without breathing?
What is breath?
Where does it come from?

Can you live without water?
Where does it comes from?

Where do you come from?
Where are you?

Reality is not bound by your opinions.
Go get in a fight and measure your ruler.
Otherwise, your attacks are fruitless and rejected.

:)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Tai Chi Bob, you are a passve aggressive hippy.

Can you live without breathing?
What is breath?
Where does it come from?

Can you live without water?
Where does it comes from?

Where do you come from?
Where are you?

Reality is not bound by your opinions.
Go get in a fight and measure your ruler.
Otherwise, your attacks are fruitless and rejected.:)
I have 'attacked' no one, so i am well-fruited and accepted.. as for your suggestion of fighting with rulers, you are ****in' into the wind, my friend, assuming more than your capacity permits..

Be well..

[YouKnowWho]

I
Are you saying that an "external" practitioner doesn't train accuracy or precision?
Those so called "external" guys also train Sung, yield, sticky, follow, sink, ... all those "internal" goodies. May be EMA guys just don't like to talke much. It doesn't mean that they don't have knowledge in those areas.

IMO, there is only the right way to train and the wrong way to train. There is no "internal" way to train and there is no "external" way to train.

[bawang]

traditional european martial art
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMdXE7jNxyc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aouiUmX2kpk&feature=related

traditional african martial arts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jWaqYUJMc0&feature=related


traditional chinese martial arts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7KxuDYfpSQ

[SPJ]

anyway--

the ship has sailed

or the train has left.

what is done is done.

both internal and external have left town.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihWI9NUiN_c&feature=related

--

:)

[SPJ]

http://kungfupracticebook.blogspot.com/2011/03/zheng-man-qing-sword-class.html

both yielding and advancing

both internal and external aspect are at play.

:)

[wiz cool c]

In my experience both are valuable and necessary. Even in chen style they do some strength training like shaking the pole and such. The problem with most internal stylist is they do very little pressure testing so it is easy to believe anything will work.

I train in both internal and external systems, and can see real benefits from both in solo training and in sparring. For example zhan Zhuang standing post is very useful in my Shuai Jiao and judo training. so are the strength training exercises of shuai jiao, when actually wrestling an opponent. And I was a push hands competitor and also did both internal and external for that training as well. And it paid off cause i won a gold and silver metal before. Where many of the internal guys I met having trained for years never even did any form of freestyle pushing or sparring before.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Greetings..


Taiji is not bound by your opinions.. the internal/external debate is unfortunate, two paths to the same place, many get lost on both paths.. more on the 'Taiji' path, though..

Be well..

Ronin style hot chick pics are not bound by your opinions...the blonde/brunette debate is unfortunate, two muffs, same color, two paths to the same place, many get lost inside those muffs, errr, debates. More on the blonde path, though..

Be poor..

http://static.foxsports.com/content/fscom/images/20027/Emma_Cam_9148446_0_0.JPG

[David Jamieson]

Greetings..


I have 'attacked' no one, so i am well-fruited and accepted.. as for your suggestion of fighting with rulers, you are ****in' into the wind, my friend, assuming more than your capacity permits..

Be well..

No worries. Keep yourself well and practice your thing and be happy.:)
If you truly believe you have something more special than any other martial art, then it is that which makes you happy despite the fact that it isn't likely true.

[Violent Designs]

Strength/Power + Speed can also beat skill.

Roy Jones Jr. crushed dozens of opponents with physical advantage attributes alone.

He beat Bernard Hopkins who was the more skilled and technical fighter.

Later on when his explosiveness and speed died down a lot, Hopkins avenged the loss.

Technique will be there, power will decrease, and speed will decrease, but to think that power and speed have less importance than pure technique is silly thinking. Plenty of less technical fighters get by with raw aggressive, power, and strength.

[David Jamieson]

Size and Power win 99.999% of the time.
It cannot be denied.
If you want the martial advantage, you have to work on:

strength, conditioning and stamina.

Your style is virtually meaningless against the basics combined with the above three.

No one has great martial skill who doesn't practice totality in their vessel maintenance.

Doing only internal martial arts without supplemental work will get you exactly no where martially.

You must work on strength and conditioning and stamina.

Most of, almost all who do not focus into these areas will be mediocre when it comes to actually testing the mettle. There are no more unknowns in this regard really. It's all about tweaking the methods to get higher performance out of the people who use the methods.

the old methods had some good stuff too. Weight lifting, weighted vests, arms legs, lifting stone locks or balls, running, body work, hardwork in the fields etc etc.

Gazing at your average ball of dough that calls itself a martial artist these days is indicative of the people who make claims to these ancient arts not actually doing them in totality.

[Eric Olson]

Strength/Power + Speed can also beat skill.

Roy Jones Jr. crushed dozens of opponents with physical advantage attributes alone.

He beat Bernard Hopkins who was the more skilled and technical fighter.

Later on when his explosiveness and speed died down a lot, Hopkins avenged the loss.

Technique will be there, power will decrease, and speed will decrease, but to think that power and speed have less importance than pure technique is silly thinking. Plenty of less technical fighters get by with raw aggressive, power, and strength.

Finally, some words of wisdom! But how can an old man beat a young man? Not with strength or speed, only skill.

EO

[Violent Designs]

Hopefully that will be enough.

But the old man shouldn't have to worry about fighting. He should have his students doing the fighting. :p

[Eric Olson]

rtial skill who doesn't practice totality in their vessel maintenance.

Doing only internal martial arts without supplemental work will get you exactly no where martially.

This is exactly my point. But....if the goal of martial arts is to be as efficient as possible (as I mentioned anyone that's gassed out in fight knows what I'm talking about), then training these things ad nauseum doesn't actually make you a better fighter. Training for inefficiency (ie stamina, strength, speed etc) is counterproductive to training to be efficient in terms of both strategy and body mechanics(and it is my experience that the internal arts are most efficient ie don't require strength.)

EO

[Iron_Eagle_76]

It amazes me that people still debate that strength and size are not the most important aspects of fighting. They are.

The reason all combat sports have weight classes is this very reason. Two individuals with fairly equal skill sets, but one outweighs the other by 20 pounds, guess who wins 99 percent of the time.

The only time the smaller guy wins is when his skill far outweighs the bigger guys, and even than the big guy has the chance to overpower him or the "puncher's chance" comes into play.

Nothing is more laughable than internal retards who think strength training and lifting weights are somehow bad for you. Sad really.

[Eric Olson]

Nothing is more laughable than internal retards who think strength training and lifting weights are somehow bad for you. Sad really.

Ah, but that's not what we're arguing about. That's the old argument.

I practice internal, strength train and do cardio. But these are really counterproductive aims. Being stronger doesn't make me a better internal martial artists because internal arts, done properly, doesn't require much strength.

EO

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Everything takes strength. Walking up a flight of stairs takes strength. Opening a door takes strength. Saying internal martial arts or any martial arts doesn't take strength is like saying you can breathe without oxygen.

[David Jamieson]

As you grow older, your body will fail you. Period, accept it.
Deception and treachery will be your martial allies in your autumn years.

Don't be that person who can do something in their mind but cannot firect their physical body to do it.

[wenshu]

This is exactly my point. But....if the goal of martial arts is to be as efficient as possible

It's not.


(as I mentioned anyone that's gassed out in fight knows what I'm talking about), then training these things ad nauseum doesn't actually make you a better fighter. Training for inefficiency (ie stamina, strength, speed etc) is counterproductive to training to be efficient in terms of both strategy and body mechanics(and it is my experience that the internal arts are most efficient ie don't require strength.)


You are predicating this non-argument on woefully misguided assumptions and prejudices.

Efficiency does not preclude strength. Conservation of energy, economy of movement presuppose strength and stamina. What exactly is it that you think is being conserved?

If you have no strength how are you going to execute those proper body mechanics?



I practice internal, strength train and do cardio. But these are really counterproductive aims. Being stronger doesn't make me a better internal martial artists because internal arts, done properly, doesn't require much strength.


I too want to be a bad ass without all the pain and sweat.

I bet if you packaged these esoteric internal practices the right way you could net some serious $$$$$.


Finally, some words of wisdom! But how can an old man beat a young man? Not with strength or speed, only skill.


Since when does age preclude being strong and fast?

How can you apply skill without strength? How can this all powerful skill be brought to bear for any significant duration without stamina?

[MightyB]

"Jack Lalanne"


http://www.jacklalanne.com/

[sanjuro_ronin]

"Jack Lalanne"


http://www.jacklalanne.com/

You beat me to it !!
You C ock !

[David Jamieson]

"Jack Lalanne"


http://www.jacklalanne.com/

Great guy.

Notable that he grew feeble as he aged, but was much stronger and more able than all the men of his own age and most that were a generation younger than him.

I grew up watching that guy daily.
Frggin awesome and living proof that strength and stamina are key to physical fitness on every level.

[MightyB]

Their are a lot of myths about aging that we simply accept for lack of better understanding.

Read on: http://www.aarp.org/health/fitness/info-01-2011/masters-athletes.html

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.jacklalanne.com/jacks-adventures/feats-and-honors.php



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Feats and Honors

1954 Age 40: Swam the length of the San Francisco Golden Gate Bridge underwater with 140 pounds of equipment, including two air tanks… an undisputed world record.

1955 Age 41: Swam, handcuffed, from Alcatraz to Fisherman’s Wharf in
San Francisco, CA.

1956 Age 42: Set a world record of 1,033 pushups in 23 minutes on “You Asked for It, a TV Show with Art Baker.

1957 Age 43: Swam the treacherous Golden Gate Channel, towing a 2,500-pound cabin cruiser. This involved fighting the cold, swift ocean currents that made the 1 mile swim a 6 ½ mile test of strength and endurance.

1958 Age 44: Maneuvered a paddleboard 30 miles, 9-½ hours non-stop from Farallon Islands to the San Francisco shore.

1959 Age 45: Completed 1,000 pushups and 1,000 chin-ups in 1 hours and 22
minutes. “Happy” is born and The Jack LaLanne Show goes nationwide

1974 Age 60: Swam from Alcatraz Island to Fisherman’s Wharf, for a second time handcuffed, shackled and towing a 1,000-pound boat.

1975 Age 61: Swam the length of the Golden Gate Bridge, underwater, for a second time handcuffed, shackled and towing a 1,000-pound boat.

1976 Age 62: Commemorating the “Spirit of ‘76”, swam 1 mile in Long Beach Harbor, handcuffed, shackled and towing 13 boats (representing the 13 original colonies) containing 76 people.

1979 Age 65: Towed 65 boats filled with 6,500-pounds of Lousiana Pacific wood pulp while handcuffed and shackled in Lake Ashinoko, near Tokyo, Japan.

1980 Age 66: Towed 10 boats in North Miami, Florida filled with 77 people for over a mile in less than 1 hour.

1984 Age 70: Handcuffed, shackled and fighting strong winds and currents, towed 70 boats with 70 people from the Queen’s Way Bridge in the Long Beach Harbor to the Queen Mary, 1 ½ miles.
1992 Age 78: Academy of Body Building and Fitness Award

1994 Age 80: State of California Governor’s Council on Physical Fitness Lifetime Achievement Award

1996 Age 82: Dwight D. Eisenhower Fitness Award

1999 Age 85: Spirit of Muscle Beach Award

2002 Age 88: Jack receives his very own star on the Hollywood Blvd. Walk of Fame

2004 Age 90: Jack celebrates his birthday with a major media blitz in New York, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. ESPN Classic runs a 24 Hour marathon of the original Jack LaLanne Shows

2005 Age 91: Received the Jack Webb Award from the Los Angeles Police Historical Society, the Arnold Classic Lifetime Achievement Award, Interglobal’s International Infomercial Award, the Freddie, Medical Media Public Service Award, and he was a Free Spirit honoree at Al Neuharth’s Freedom Fourm.

2007 Age 93: Received the Treasures of Los Angeles Award, Lifetime Achievement Award from Muscle Beach, and the Y.M.C.A. Impact Award.

2008 Age 94: Inducted into the California Hall of Fame, Parker Seminars Award, received the honorary degree of Doctor of Humanities from the Southern California University of Health Sciences, receives the People of Vision Award from the RP International, receives the Heroes Humanity Award, and was inducted into the Gallery of Legends hosted by the World Acrobatics Society.

2009 Age 95: Jack receives Lifetime Achievement Award from Club Industry. Jack LaLanne days were observed in San Francisco and Los Angeles.



Now, THAT is KUNG FU !

[David Jamieson]

Their are a lot of myths about aging that we simply accept for lack of better understanding.

Read on: http://www.aarp.org/health/fitness/info-01-2011/masters-athletes.html

Here's something that isn't a myth.

We are born, we grow old, our bodies fail and we die.

This will happen to every single one of us provided we do not suffer an unnatural death.

Everything else is mind. The world each of us decides to live in is the one we choose to live in. If we do not do the work, we do not get the reward.

[Eric Olson]

"Jack Lalanne"


http://www.jacklalanne.com/

Love me some LaLanne but truth is that we lose a certain percentage of muscle mass as we age.

So, yes, by all means do strength training to preserve your muscle mass. But if you want to be able to fight as you get older, or defend yourself, or whatever, you're not going to do so by being stronger than the next guy.

That's the real delusion here. It's where skill comes into play and even guys that do so-called "external" arts become more "internal" as they get older...meaning they rely less on strength and more on skill. Internal just starts from that premise.

EO

[Eric Olson]

It's not.



You are predicating this non-argument on woefully misguided assumptions and prejudices.

Efficiency does not preclude strength. Conservation of energy, economy of movement presuppose strength and stamina. What exactly is it that you think is being conserved?



The more muscle you engage, the more energy you consume. The more it taxes your cardio and pulmonary systems. So I'm not sure what you are saying.



If you have no strength how are you going to execute those proper body mechanics?

I didn't say zero strength.




I too want to be a bad ass without all the pain and sweat.

I bet if you packaged these esoteric internal practices the right way you could net some serious $$$$$.

Well you're kind of right. I believe my Taiji teacher used the phrase "diligently lazy". Practicing internal doesn't mean you don't have to practice, but you have to practice to use less.



Since when does age preclude being strong and fast?

Our bodies, and muscle fiber, deteriorates with age. Fact of life, sorry.


How can you apply skill without strength? How can this all powerful skill be brought to bear for any significant duration without stamina?

By having a strategy that isn't dependent on strength...see Taiji :D

[Eric Olson]

Everything takes just enough strength. Walking up a flight of stairs takes just enoughstrength. Opening a door takes just enough strength. Saying internal martial arts or any martial arts doesn't take strength is like saying you can breathe without oxygen.

See my edits....

EO

[Lucas]

i think it is also different for each person. some people have 'natural' strength. natural genetic strength will persist longer than developed strength in your aging. if you strength train on top of being natrually strong, you can even further your timeline.

i am not of the mindset to use only enough strenght or power as needed. i differ there from many.

some are ok using just enough power to KO someone. I want to cave his face in as best i can. some are ok just using enough strength and energy to throw a man. I want to smash him into the ground so hard he wont get up.

i dont do sport fighting. i dont care to conserve too much energy in a fight because real fights only last seconds, my stamina and endurance is good enough i can go all out in a real fight without having to worry about running out. i want to 'win', and i want to do it right away. if i think i can make contact, im going to go with excessive force.


maybe im a brute in mentality.

however, i also age, and i know my abilities and physical attributes are only around for so long. economy of motion, structure, strategy, understanding, and deception are the qualities i foster for my elder years but i will always use what ever strenght is available to me, what ever that may be at what ever particular year it may be in my life.

[MightyB]

Love me some LaLanne but truth is that we lose a certain percentage of muscle mass as we age.


Not entirely true we're finding out. Read that AARP article I linked.



So, yes, by all means do strength training to preserve your muscle mass. But if you want to be able to fight as you get older, or defend yourself, or whatever, you're not going to do so by being stronger than the next guy.

That's the real delusion here. It's where skill comes into play and even guys that do so-called "external" arts become more "internal" as they get older...meaning they rely less on strength and more on skill. Internal just starts from that premise.

EO

Again not entirely true. Skill development is the same no matter if you're internal or external. Actually - labeling external or internal is a misnomer. There shouldn't be a distinction. External is internal and internal is external. Always been the case.

I'll be honest here - Thinking like this: "Internal just starts from that premise." gets a lot of guys's arses kicked.

Fighting is not pretty - and it's not soft - and it's not something that can be looked at in a purely academic sense. The first time you get kicked in the thigh - hit in the face - put into a RNC - or thrown with uchi mata, you realize this. It's hard, it's sweaty, it's exhausting... at first - then it gets easier with experience. You can't skip the hard part of the learning curve.

[MightyB]

What do boxers do before entering a ring? They loosen up.
What's the key to success in BJJ and Judo? Relaxation under stress.
What do middle distance runners concentrate on to keep the right mix of speed and endurance? Relaxing the hands, forearms, and arms - this in turn keeps your shoulders and neck relaxed which eases your breathing and prevents lactic acid building up too fast.

At the same time- all of those activities require hard physical exertion, mixed with relaxation during stress. I can understand the motivation to try and skip the learning curve by participating in the so-called internal arts... but you can't. I believe all martial arts are internal and external.

[YouKnowWho]

Strength/Power + Speed can also beat skill.

Old Chinese saying said,

一力勝十會 - strength can defeat 10 best skills.
拳不打功 - skill has no match to strength.
盲拳打死老師父 - young strong guy's punches can kill old CMA master.

The reason is simple. If your opponent is stronger than you and your strength is not sufficient to defeat your opponent than you have to borrow your opponent's force. If your opponent is smart enough not let you to borrow his force then you will lose for sure.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

At the same time- all of those activities require hard physical exertion, mixed with relaxation during stress. I can understand the motivation to try and skip the learning curve by participating in the so-called internal arts... but you can't. I believe all martial arts are internal and external.

Ding, Ding, Ding,.......We have a winner!

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The bottom line is this. If you think some 60 year old, fat a**ss Tai Chi master (I say that term loosely) can somehow channel internal energy to defeat a younger, stronger, opponent, particuarly someone who is a wrestler, Judoka, or Shuai Jiao player and knows what real internal and external power is, your a deluded jack wagon.

[YouKnowWho]

even guys that do so-called "external" arts become more "internal" as they get older...meaning they rely less on strength and more on skill. Internal just starts from that premise.
IMO, the best fighting strategy, you

1. attack with your own strength for 3 times, if fail
2. try to borrow your opponent's strength for 3 times, if fail
3. play defense for 3 times, if fail
4. put your tail between your legs and run like hell.

It's always better to finish you fight in the 1st stage and not later. The idea of "borrow force" is always a bad idea because it may make you lazy to build up your own strength.

[Frost]

Love me some LaLanne but truth is that we lose a certain percentage of muscle mass as we age.

So, yes, by all means do strength training to preserve your muscle mass. But if you want to be able to fight as you get older, or defend yourself, or whatever, you're not going to do so by being stronger than the next guy.

That's the real delusion here. It's where skill comes into play and even guys that do so-called "external" arts become more "internal" as they get older...meaning they rely less on strength and more on skill. Internal just starts from that premise.

EO

yep and we all know how those old internal masters are out there kciking a$$ and winning fights...oh wait my bad :rolleyes:

You dont have to be stronger than the next guy, but if he is stronger, better conditioned and anywhere near you in terms of skill you are in trouble

[Eric Olson]

What do boxers do before entering a ring? They loosen up.
What's the key to success in BJJ and Judo? Relaxation under stress.
What do middle distance runners concentrate on to keep the right mix of speed and endurance? Relaxing the hands, forearms, and arms - this in turn keeps your shoulders and neck relaxed which eases your breathing and prevents lactic acid building up too fast.

Sounds very efficient:D....



At the same time- all of those activities require hard physical exertion, mixed with relaxation during stress. I can understand the motivation to try and skip the learning curve by participating in the so-called internal arts... but you can't. I believe all martial arts are internal and external.

Unless you've touched hands with someone that has high internal skill you won't know what the difference is. So unfortunately I can't really explain it to you.

But just to give you an idea, I'm 6' 7" 260 lbs (yeah, not kidding) and I have pushed hands with someone that's twice my age, probably 100 lbs lighter and has toothpicks for arms but that could throw me across the room. It's not because they're stronger, but because they have a higher level of skill.

EO

[Eric Olson]

yep and we all know how those old internal masters are out there kciking a$$ and winning fights...oh wait my bad :rolleyes:

You dont have to be stronger than the next guy, but if he is stronger, better conditioned and anywhere near you in terms of skill you are in trouble

It's funny how these conversations always devolve into the same tired old arguments and camps.

Read my original post carefully before chiming in with these tired old statements. Same to you IronEagle.

No one ever said strength, speed, youth or endurance aren't important....or to be contended with. No one ever said not to train for strength or cardio.

I'm saying that in your technique and strategy you should try to be as efficient as possible. And in this realm internal has everyone beat because they start with that mindset from day one.

EO

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sounds very efficient:D....



Unless you've touched hands with someone that has high internal skill you won't know what the difference is. So unfortunately I can't really explain it to you.

But just to give you an idea, I'm 6' 7" 260 lbs (yeah, not kidding) and I have pushed hands with someone that's twice my age, probably 100 lbs lighter and has toothpicks for arms but that could throw me across the room. It's not because they're stronger, but because they have a higher level of skill.

EO

I have touched hands with high level Tai chi people, some would say even VERY high level.
Their push hands are beyond description.
Of course I have also rolled with very high level BJJ players and their rolling is beyond description.
I have also wreslted with high level wrestlers and their wrestling is beyond description.
I could go on, but the point is that anyone that spends that much time doing something will be very, very good at it.

I wonder how good a swimmer they are?
How fast they can run the 100?
How long it takes them to run a mile?

[Lucas]

in your technique and strategy you should try to be as efficient as possible. EO

fully, the only argument i have here is that some 'external' practitioners do follow this guideline as well.

there really are 3 'camps' as i see it:

people who make distinction between internal and external. perscribe to one or both worlds in their training.

people who make no distinction and view them as completely interlaced.

people who do not have the concept.

i believe all 3 can produce fighters. its all about training realistically towards your goals.

i dont think anyone will argue against effeciency.

some use effeciency to conserve, personally i use effeciency in conjunction with strength for maximum destruction. that is my personal intent.

the way i see it, my skill will always use up to 100% of all my power. and my power will always rely on my skill to one degree or another.

[David Jamieson]

I can honestly say that I haven't met a decent fighter who wasn't relaxed.

I don't think people waste energy because they don't study so called internal arts. I think the "internal" arts are so cryptic that simple truths are buried under huge piles of horse****.

The very idea that soft practice alone without strength, stamina and conditioning training will be enough to make you a fighter has been literally dashed, destroyed, chewed up, shat out, fed to a cur, spit out, ground up, thrown under a moving bus and turned to dust after a time in the gutter where it rotted and eventually dried out.

Seriously, this is not 1985 anymore. I think people are more aware than ever as to what's what and where it belongs in the grand scheme of things. "Internal" usually means healthful practice to keep the joints loose and the spirit high.

It is a very long slow and silly road to try to make a fighter out of yourself with "internal" practice alone.

Now, go hit the bag and lift some weights and make yourself as tired as a dog that swam across the ocean. THEN do a form. :)

[YouKnowWho]

you should try to be as efficient as possible.
There is a difference between offense and defense. If you want to

- kill someone by a punch, your 200 lb force (not efficient) or 100 lb force (efficient) may make difference whether your opponent will be sent to grave yard or hospital.
- deflect a punch, your 100 lb force (not efficient) or 4 oz force (efficient) may make no difference.

Many IMA guys try to avoid talking about "finish moves" and only talk about "defense moves" such as yield, follow, sticky, sink, Sung, ... That sometime cause a lot of misleading.

A simple question to ask may be, "How to use yout internal skill to kill?"

[MightyB]

A simple question to ask may be, "How to use yout internal skill to kill?"

Maybe because my base TCMA art was supposably Shaolin in origin yet was promoted and passed on by a daoist monk that I have my view that there is no difference between internal and external... because mantis is both.

Anyway- my Sifu always says - use yao (soft) to deflect and control the opponent's gong (hard) technique, but you use your own gong technique to kill.

[MightyB]

Sounds very efficient:D....



Unless you've touched hands with someone that has high internal skill you won't know what the difference is. So unfortunately I can't really explain it to you.

But just to give you an idea, I'm 6' 7" 260 lbs (yeah, not kidding) and I have pushed hands with someone that's twice my age, probably 100 lbs lighter and has toothpicks for arms but that could throw me across the room. It's not because they're stronger, but because they have a higher level of skill.

EO

Same in Judo. You won't "feel" a master until you arse hits the ground. It's the wrestling with the empty jacket concept. Now is that high level skill "internal" or "external" or is there even a difference?

[Eric Olson]

There is a difference between offense and defense. If you want to

- kill someone by a punch, your 200 lb force (not efficient) or 100 lb force (efficient) may make difference whether your opponent will be sent to grave yard or hospital.
"
How often does anyone encounter a "one hit, one kill" situation? Mostly there's a lot of fighting before someone lands a knock out punch.

Secondly, if someone attacks you with zero force how can you use their force against them? And why would you, there's nothing to avoid?



- deflect a punch, your 100 lb force (not efficient) or 4 oz force (efficient) may make no difference.

????



Many IMA guys try to avoid talking about "finish moves" and only talk about "defense moves" such as yield, follow, sticky, sink, Sung, ... That sometime cause a lot of misleading.

A simple question to ask may be, "How to use yout internal skill to kill?"

You did Taiji. You never learned Kao (bump), Cai (rend), Lie (split), Zhou (elbow)? But those techniques don't work half as well until you've neutralized the opponent.

EO

[Eric Olson]

Same in Judo. You won't "feel" a master until you arse hits the ground. It's the wrestling with the empty jacket concept. Now is that high level skill "internal" or "external" or is there even a difference?

Sounds pretty much the same. But I think it's a mistake to think that all roads, from all martial arts lead there...they don't.

And my original point, was that if a judoka with that level of skill met another judoka with a similar level of skill, it may come down to strength and/or endurance...so you can't neglect those attributes...but train to use skill, not rely on your strength.

EO

[bawang]

u train a style that flails arms and haymakers and talk about skill.

[YouKnowWho]

You did Taiji. You never learned Kao (bump), Cai (rend), Lie (split), Zhou (elbow)? But those techniques don't work half as well until you've neutralized the opponent.
The "neutralization" is the step before "finish" and not "finish" itself. The Taiji system mix the striking and throwing concept. Most of the time, it cause a lot of confusion (Is a "push" throw or a strike?).

In the throwing art, all you need is to push your opponent's center to be outside of his base, you can then let the gravity and hard ground to finish your task.

In the striking art, a punch to the head will have to depend on your own force. Even your opponent may run into your punch but you still need to have good body structure and body alignment behind your punch.

I can understand that Taiji guys don't like to talk about a "low level" punch to the head (XingYi guys or Bagua guys won't mind this at all). That kind of mindset can only pull the Taiji system away from the combat reality.

The day that we can see all Taiji masters demo their skill by using one punch to knock their opponent down, the day that Taiji will regain it's reputation. Until then the Taiji system is far away from the combat reality.

[David Jamieson]

*snip*
And my original point, was that if a judoka with that level of skill met another judoka with a similar level of skill, it may come down to strength and/or endurance...so you can't neglect those attributes...but train to use skill, not rely on your strength.

EO

This statement is a big ball of contradiction.

which is it?

train to use skill?

dude, that reads like some empty platitude. IMA-ists really need to simply put up or shut up.

put up and declare you won using "x" "internal" style. BOOM argument over.

It doesn't seem odd that the most contentious debates about martial arts come from IMA-ists who for the most part have not actually been in fights.

[MightyB]

And my original point, was that if a judoka with that level of skill met another judoka with a similar level of skill, it may come down to strength and/or endurance...so you can't neglect those attributes...but train to use skill, not rely on your strength.

EO

There was an original point??? jk :p

No seriously, we have different points of view is all. It's a decent topic for discussion and it's certainly generated a lot of posts.

My thought is that if you had a tai chi master with that level of skill meet another TC Master with a similar level of skill, it may come down to strength and/or endurance...so you can't neglect those attributes...but train to use skill, not rely on your strength.

See how it's a circular argument? What it all comes down to is enjoying the training you participate in so that you'll be motivated to practice it for the rest of your life. That's the real secret to kung fu whether it's "internal" or "external".

[KC Elbows]

I'm not sure there's an overall style of kung fu that can point at other styles of kungfu's practitioners as deficient based on samples of inneffective people in the style.

Unless you do liu he ba fa, then no one is gonna reveal they aren't really certain what the crap you do.

[David Jamieson]

I'm not sure there's an overall style of kung fu that can point at other styles of kungfu's practitioners as deficient based on samples of inneffective people in the style.

Unless you do liu he ba fa, then no one is gonna reveal they aren't really certain what the crap you do.

I see what you did there....:p

[KC Elbows]

I see what you did there....:p

Clearly, it was liu he ba fa.

[lance]

As someone who has practiced external and internal martial arts I think internal is the superior path. Why?

Because internal arts are not dependent on strength(or speed really). They are a pure expression of skill. As you age (and everyone does, including you 20-somethings!) you naturally lose strength and you would be at a disadvantage compared to the young and strong.

That being said...what do you do when you encounters someone that is more skilled than you are? Curl up in a ball and die? Get the crap beat out of you?

No, that's why it's still important to build up strength and stamina as a fail safe. If you want to be a well-rounded fighter than you need to be in decent shape if you meet an opponent that has more skill. Ideally every fight would be ended with one punch, one kill. Anyone that's put on gloves and gone a few rounds knows this is nothing more than an ideal.

But on the external side...why not try to be more efficient? Why build big muscles that slow you down and gas you out? Why not try to be as efficient in your movement so that you don't have to? Relying on skill first, strength and speed second.

That's where I'm at in my training. Where are you?

EO

Hello , I would build my strength up by practicing tai chi since it ' ll improve your
internal power . Or chi - kung whichever way possible . Weight training is good too , to build up the physical part of you , yes , building big muscles can slower you , but try and practicing on punching with speed and see what happens because we are all different from eachother .

But I would rather practice on building my internal power through tai chi or chi kung training .


Lance

[Ray Pina]

But on the external side...why not try to be more efficient? Why build big muscles that slow you down and gas you out? Why not try to be as efficient in your movement so that you don't have to? Relying on skill first, strength and speed second.

That's where I'm at in my training. Where are you?
EO

Its funny how "internalist" paint "externalists" as brainless brutes, hunched over and dragging their big, hair knuckles across the floor.

Western boxers are "external", so are Thai boxers and the karate style I studied for about 12 years. All of them are extremely efficient. You'll find schools of thought in each style that says you should or shouldn't supplement your training with weights.

Guys who train for real, regardless if they lift or not, will have telling bodies: thick necks, strong shoulders and chests. Broad backs. All martial artists will have that.


All martial artist are the same at a certain point, at a certain age. They have developed their personal game plan/style.... have played with plenty of guys faster than them, or bigger, or heavier or longer. They've put in the time to find the solutions. Its never about being faster or stronger for the experienced, mature stylist.

[YouKnowWho]

But on the external side...why not try to be more efficient? Why build big muscles that slow you down and gas you out? Why not try to be as efficient in your movement so that you don't have to? Relying on skill first, strength and speed second.
When you train this weight pulley drill, you will not develop big muscles that slow you down and gas you out, but make your skill more "efficient".

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/9546/weightpulley4.jpg

[wiz cool c]

The problem is most internalist don't do any sparring or pressure testing[push hand,fixed or moving ] or any freestyle training at all. the first time i went to beijing for a two week training trip,to do tai chi and bagua. there were about 10 guys. all had some experience in the internal art. so being a push hand competitor at the time i was happy to have some people around to train with, wow what a shock none of them had ever pushed before. and i could get a single one of them to push with me more then once. can you imagine you went on a bbj training trip and no bjj guys who were there had ever rolled. Or a boxing camp and none of the guys ever sparred before. So yeah they got so far fetched ideas about what works,without any proof at all.



But on the other hand there are a few real skilled high level internal guys that can and do train realisticly. And yes those rare few do give you the impression that they have something special. A good example is one of Ren's tai chi students that teaches out in Jersey. Guy weighs 140 and while doing sumo style moving push hands he can be budged.

[YouKnowWho]

There are something missing in the Taiji system.

- There should be some training beyond push hand.
- Grabbing should be added to disallow your opponent to have freedom of "change".
- "Leg moves (such as hook, sweep, scoop, break, twist, cut, bite, ...)" and "contact point concept" should be included instead of just "push at the center" and allow your opponent to have freedom on his legs.
- Giving force so you can borrow your opponent's resist or yield.
- Don't be afraid to let your opponent to feel you. His feeling can trigger his action, and his action can help you to borrow his force.
- Finish moves training should be emphasized (such as a punch to the head, a kick to the groin, ...).
- Yang should be treated as important as Yin.

[bawang]

if they did that no one would want to learn tai chi anymore would they

[MightyB]

if they did that no one would want to learn tai chi anymore would they

You Speaketh the truth of all MA sir.

[sanjuro_ronin]

theres nothing missing in tai chi system. theyre teaching what people wanna learn.

Quite true.
I know a Chen Taiji teacher that teache stypical taiji ( forms, push hands, silk reeling) and also teaches "combat" Taiji - hard sparring, clinch fighting, impact weapons, etc.
All depends what people want to "buy".

[David Jamieson]

How do you teach someone what they "want" to learn?
You can't.

You can facilitate by providing them with a method and perhaps some tools, but the only way you actually learn something is by doing it. Especially tactile things like martial arts.

Also, I'd like to bury the "please bring traffic to trollshido" thread. lol :p

[Iron_Eagle_76]

How do you teach someone what they "want" to learn?
You can't.

You can facilitate by providing them with a method and perhaps some tools, but the only way you actually learn something is by doing it. Especially tactile things like martial arts.

Also, I'd like to bury the "please bring traffic to trollshido" thread. lol :p

Someone who is experienced in martial arts already can make this call of what they want, but not someone who is ignorant. Honestly I don't have a problem with anyone teaching any art so long as smoke is not blowed up someone's arse!! As people get older many gravitate toward less contact in their martial training. Just as long as you don't have Tai Chi instructors teaching push hands and comparing it to clinch and wrestling training, it's all good. In other words, call it like it is.

[bawang]

its stupid to talk about fighting in kung fu and tai chi. thats not what ur students pay u to learn. they want an exotic oriental aerobic workout. and thats what u better keep teaching if u dont wanna end up homeless.

people arent masters of martial art, theyre slaves to martial art. after spending their whole life doing kung fu no education no work experience, if they dont sell out and compromise theyll work at kfc till theyre 50.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

its stupid to talk about fighting in kung fu and tai chi. thats not what ur students pay u to learn. they want an exotic oriental aerobic workout. and thats what u better keep teaching if u dont wanna end up homeless.

if u wanna teach fighting dont put "kung fu" on ur school name.

But what if I already own my gym, and I have hot bikini models who work the door, and I tell everyone real nice like that even though it's Kung Fu, we still fight, do you think it would work? BTW, the bikini models rub all my student's testicles after class.:D

[Lucas]

can i be your student?

[sanjuro_ronin]

But what if I already own my gym, and I have hot bikini models who work the door, and I tell everyone real nice like that even though it's Kung Fu, we still fight, do you think it would work? BTW, the bikini models rub all my student's testicles after class.:D

http://www.kungfusky.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/bikini-kungfu-and-black-katana-1.jpg

http://www.bestandroidwallpaper.com/wallpapers/dark_bikini_babe_android_background_drawable-320x480.jpg

http://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/Random/bikini-karate-kick.jpg

[Iron_Eagle_76]

http://www.kungfusky.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/bikini-kungfu-and-black-katana-1.jpg

http://www.bestandroidwallpaper.com/wallpapers/dark_bikini_babe_android_background_drawable-320x480.jpg

http://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/Random/bikini-karate-kick.jpg

Actually these are the girls. Coors Light is my sponser.:D

http://aleheads.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/coors-light1.jpg

[Lucas]

when can i start training?

[David Jamieson]

when can i start training?

when you stop pleasuring yourself over and over again looking at pictures of boobs painted to resemble beer cans....

"nice cans" is the only appropriate thing to say to those girls.

and "I'm thirsty"... :p

P.S - SR, the middle one, the middle one, oh yeah!

[Lucas]

id say 'give me a six pack'

[YouKnowWho]

How do you teach someone what they "want" to learn?
You can't.

One American guy came to a Chinese teacher and wanted to learn

- Chinese meditation. The Chinese teacher marked a black dot on the wall and asked that American student to sit in front of that wall and looked at that dot for 2 hours in every training section.

- spear form. The Chinese teacher open a CMA spear book and learned 3 spear moves in the morning and then taught that American student those 3 moves that evening. That teacher didn't end that spear form because there was a flip in that form that the Chinese teacher couldn't do himself.

Both stroies are true and did happen back in the 70th.

[-N-]

Both stroies are true and did happen back in the 70th.
You sure are mean to your American students :D

[YouKnowWho]

You sure are mean to your American students :D
That wasn't me. :D

[Merryprankster]

I just wanna answer the original post/poster.

I'm at a point in my training where I know that being good at something requires maximizing your physical attributes and your skills. Any other perspective is bull****; it's not possible to do one without the other. You can't effectively and efficiently use your attributes if you don't have the skill to do so. You cannot get the most out of your skill training if you are not in shape enough to train it hard, repetitively, and under pressure.

[Eric Olson]

I just wanna answer the original post/poster.

I'm at a point in my training where I know that being good at something requires maximizing your physical attributes and your skills. Any other perspective is bull****; it's not possible to do one without the other. You can't effectively and efficiently use your attributes if you don't have the skill to do so. You cannot get the most out of your skill training if you are not in shape enough to train it hard, repetitively, and under pressure.

What attributes are you talking about? What skills? These statements are too general to argue with.

What I'm saying is that there are many fighting skills, even whole systems (ie internal systems) that don't require "strength" in the Western sense of the word. And I'd argue that these are superior because they're efficient and they're less likely to gas you out in a protracted fight vs. wasting your energy jumping around or wrestling.

EO

[Frost]

What attributes are you talking about? What skills? These statements are too general to argue with.

What I'm saying is that there are many fighting skills, even whole systems (ie internal systems) that don't require "strength" in the Western sense of the word. And I'd argue that these are superior because they're efficient and they're less likely to gas you out in a protracted fight vs. wasting your energy jumping around or wrestling.

EO

Lol on the one hand we have an national level competitor in both BJJ and submission grappling who has also fought MMA saying that gasp both physical abilities and skill are needed in fighting and competition

On the other we have someone spouting the usual internals don’t need strength to make them work and thus are far superior line, but cant show us any proof of this working
I wonder who we should believe (and I wouldn’t blame Merry at all if he doesn’t post again on this thread)

Here’s an idea post a clip of YOU in action in a fight that is full contact OR a grappling match in a major competition which lasts a full round where you are using your superior internal arts to not waste energy and beat your opponent…………..

And yes this is the same tired old argument that I would like to see what you talk about in action before I believe you………………..because I can see what merry and others are talking about in action all the time, where as for some unknown reason you cant provide any proof at all to back up what you are talking about

[sanjuro_ronin]

What attributes are you talking about? What skills? These statements are too general to argue with.

What I'm saying is that there are many fighting skills, even whole systems (ie internal systems) that don't require "strength" in the Western sense of the word. And I'd argue that these are superior because they're efficient and they're less likely to gas you out in a protracted fight vs. wasting your energy jumping around or wrestling.

EO

I really think you need to get out more and experience more, a lot more.

[Merryprankster]

What attributes are you talking about? What skills? These statements are too general to argue with.

What I'm saying is that there are many fighting skills, even whole systems (ie internal systems) that don't require "strength" in the Western sense of the word. And I'd argue that these are superior because they're efficient and they're less likely to gas you out in a protracted fight vs. wasting your energy jumping around or wrestling.

EO

I guess you'll have to tell me what you think internal is before this conversation can even begin.

[wenshu]

Here’s an idea post a clip of YOU in action in a fight that is full contact OR a grappling match in a major competition which lasts a full round where you are using your superior internal arts to not waste energy and beat your opponent…………..

Does not necessarily even have to be a competition.

I would be satisfied with some hard sparring.

[MightyB]

I don't know why, but I find Wenshu's sig pic strangely fascinating. It's like witnessing a train wreck. You don't want to watch because deep down inside you know it's horrible, but, at the same time, you can't take your eyes away from it.

Good pic choice sir.

[Merryprankster]

I don't know why, but I find Wenshu's sig pic strangely fascinating. It's like witnessing a train wreck. You don't want to watch because deep down inside you know it's horrible, but, at the same time, you can't take your eyes away from it.

Good pic choice sir.

Agreed.

Also, the minimum character requirement is lame.

[wenshu]

Thanks gentlemen,

. . I think.

Honestly, I find that there is no greater representation of what modern wushu is than Johnny Weir.
http://www.mamapop.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/johnny-weir1.jpg

Seriously, wushu comps are like those horrible toddler beauty pageants.

They all make that face, uhhhhhhh, pageant face. Gives me the creeps.

[MasterKiller]

What attributes are you talking about? What skills? These statements are too general to argue with.

What I'm saying is that there are many fighting skills, even whole systems (ie internal systems) that don't require "strength" in the Western sense of the word. And I'd argue that these are superior because they're efficient and they're less likely to gas you out in a protracted fight vs. wasting your energy jumping around or wrestling.

EO

BJJ is an "internal" art. It's more about leverage, relaxation, position, and balance than strength and power. But, if you aren't in shape, you're still going to lose.

[David Jamieson]

Who didn't think that figure skating would become a top sport for flaming gay males?

who?

:D

p.s wushu kind of looks the same when it comes to the boys. :p

the chub larper representing trad...sadly, that is not far off the mark in many cases either. :(

[David Jamieson]

Eric -

Don't be evasive.

You are saying you don't require strength to defeat an opponent.
I think you are not understanding the concept behind efficient kinetics as is expounded in "internal" martial arts training.

I don't think people understand it without doing "external" martial arts. :p

You cannot understand dark without knowing light, you cannot understand the sky without knowing the ground and so on, so it makes sense that you cannot comprehend the soft without feeling the hard.

So, pairing down power to use only that which optimizes function is indeed a course of practice in martial arts. It is not the begin point though and it takes people a long time to relax in their movement and striking etc.

Furthermore, it is my opinion that if you start your martial arts journey with a so called internal martial art, you will NEVER get any good at martial arts. Ever. You will never gain the required understanding of combat and confrontation and you will poison your mind with fallacy and delusion as you try to become weaker and weaker. lol

[Eric Olson]

BJJ is an "internal" art. It's more about leverage, relaxation, position, and balance than strength and power. But, if you aren't in shape, you're still going to lose.

Yeah, that's probably true. Or at least in the development of the art, it's headed in that direction minus the mystical woo-woo stuff.

EO

[Eric Olson]

Lol on the one hand we have an national level competitor in both BJJ and submission grappling who has also fought MMA saying that gasp both physical abilities and skill are needed in fighting and competition

On the other we have someone spouting the usual internals don’t need strength to make them work and thus are far superior line, but cant show us any proof of this working
I wonder who we should believe (and I wouldn’t blame Merry at all if he doesn’t post again on this thread)

Here’s an idea post a clip of YOU in action in a fight that is full contact OR a grappling match in a major competition which lasts a full round where you are using your superior internal arts to not waste energy and beat your opponent…………..

And yes this is the same tired old argument that I would like to see what you talk about in action before I believe you………………..because I can see what merry and others are talking about in action all the time, where as for some unknown reason you cant provide any proof at all to back up what you are talking about

Don't believe what I'm saying....what do I care?

In fact, I think you should do the opposite, spend all your time strength training, get as strong as you can and in any competition try to out "strength "your opponent.

Maybe it will work for you?

EO

[Eric Olson]

I really think you need to get out more and experience more, a lot more.

Sage advice...actually for everyone on this forum :p

EO

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sage advice...actually for everyone on this forum :p

EO

I am serious bro, when was the last time you experienced another MA at a high level?

[wenshu]

Don't believe what I'm saying....what do I care?

In fact, I think you should do the opposite, spend all your time strength training, get as strong as you can and in any competition try to out "strength "your opponent.

Maybe it will work for you?

EO

No one is arguing that maximal strength is a panacea.

The only ones who really seem to argue for unilateral dominance of one specific, narrowly defined aspect of martial arts training are the "internalist" ax grinders.

Its not internal vs external, thats just marketing.

Their is a distinction between hardness and softness. All legitimate martial arts contain a relative balance of the two.

Favor one at your peril.

I shall never tire of emphasizing the following; "Internal" is just an excuse for people who want to be a bada$$ without the sweat, DOMS, bruises and pulled muscles.

[Frost]

Don't believe what I'm saying....what do I care?

In fact, I think you should do the opposite, spend all your time strength training, get as strong as you can and in any competition try to out "strength "your opponent.

Maybe it will work for you?

EO

Oh I don’t believe what you are saying….and the sad thing is you don’t have any rove other thanyour personal beliefs because if you did you would be busy posting clips to prove me wrong

And your response is typical of someone who cant argue coherently you throw your dummy out of your pram and say you don’t care, but not before going to the extreme point of view where to try to prove your point……….where did anyone say just use your strength, merry said both physical and technical skill are needed and I agreed, so did anyone who has actually competed with skilled opponents

The fact you cant see this speaks volumes about your level of skill and training

[Eric Olson]

Oh I don’t believe what you are saying….and the sad thing is you don’t have any rove other thanyour personal beliefs because if you did you would be busy posting clips to prove me wrong

And your response is typical of someone who cant argue coherently you throw your dummy out of your pram and say you don’t care, but not before going to the extreme point of view where to try to prove your point……….where did anyone say just use your strength, merry said both physical and technical skill are needed and I agreed, so did anyone who has actually competed with skilled opponents

The fact you cant see this speaks volumes about your level of skill and training

Blah, blah, blah...you just don't like that I tried to pigeon-hole your argument...which is exactly what you are trying to do to me.

This is a "discussion" forum, we discuss things here. Choose to believe (or read) what I write or not. I really could give a **** or not.

If you want to engage in an actual discussion minus the personal attacks and barbs I'm happy to oblige.

EO

[Eric Olson]

No one is arguing that maximal strength is a panacea.

No one is arguing that internal is a panacea either. Funny how no one likes to be pigeon-holed but they like to do it to others.



The only ones who really seem to argue for unilateral dominance of one specific, narrowly defined aspect of martial arts training are the "internalist" ax grinders.

Which ain't me....



Its not internal vs external, thats just marketing.

Their is a distinction between hardness and softness. All legitimate martial arts contain a relative balance of the two.

Favor one at your peril.

That's your opinion. Internal isn't really "soft" like in external styles. It's neither hard, nor soft....it's sung. I think that's where people get confused and say "hey, look, we have soft too. We're internal."



I shall never tire of emphasizing the following; "Internal" is just an excuse for people who want to be a bada$$ without the sweat, DOMS, bruises and pulled muscles.

Practicing internal arts still means you have to practice ;) I think it's people who confuse internal practice with not practicing that have the problem.

EO

[wenshu]

That's your opinion. Internal isn't really "soft" like in external styles. It's neither hard, nor soft....it's sung.

I think you mean:
松
[sōng]
3. verb [放开] relax
他松开了抓着绳子的手。
He relaxed his grip on the rope.
4. verb [鞋带、腰带] loosen
5. adjective loose
他的腰带有点松。
His belt is a bit loose.
你管学生不能太松了。
You shouldn't be too soft on the students.

Nearly synonomous with
柔
[róu]
1. adjective [软] soft
2. adjective [柔和] gentle

[Frost]

Blah, blah, blah...you just don't like that I tried to pigeon-hole your argument...which is exactly what you are trying to do to me.

This is a "discussion" forum, we discuss things here. Choose to believe (or read) what I write or not. I really could give a **** or not.

If you want to engage in an actual discussion minus the personal attacks and barbs I'm happy to oblige.

EO

how can one discuss anything with someone whose position seems to be internal is better unique etc but cant provide any substantial evidence to back it up, its based on faith NOT evidence and you cant argue with blind faith

[Eric Olson]

how can one discuss anything with someone whose position seems to be internal is better unique etc but cant provide any substantial evidence to back it up, its based on faith NOT evidence and you cant argue with blind faith

Oh boy...:rolleyes: I don't suppose you are a follower of Ayn Rand too.

Look, if you want to drill down into "evidence" then we'd probably have to get all scientific about it. And I don't think either of us has time to do that. YouTube clips really prove nothing because anyone can cherry pick the clips to prove their point.

All we can really talk about here is our experience and our interpretation of it. Now, I happened to study under a very "high level" (I use that term loosely) Taiji master and he could school me despite being a fraction of my weight using very little effort.

Could I have popped in the face if we really fought? Probably, I don't think he'd done a lot of fighting. But once you're in the clinch with him, game over because he can feel where you're going and you can't figure out how he's manipulating your force.

How many high-level Taiji masters have you pushed with?

EO

[Frost]

Oh boy...:rolleyes: I don't suppose you are a follower of Ayn Rand too.

Look, if you want to drill down into "evidence" then we'd probably have to get all scientific about it. And I don't think either of us has time to do that. YouTube clips really prove nothing because anyone can cherry pick the clips to prove their point.

All we can really talk about here is our experience and our interpretation of it. Now, I happened to study under a very "high level" (I use that term loosely) Taiji master and he could school me despite being a fraction of my weight using very little effort.

Could I have popped in the face if we really fought? Probably, I don't think he'd done a lot of fighting. But once you're in the clinch with him, game over because he can feel where you're going and you can't figure out how he's manipulating your force.

How many high-level Taiji masters have you pushed with?

EO

oh i dont know i did tai chi for about 7 years with a few guys who had studied it for over 2 decades they were pretty good but not well known masters, but hey it gives me a reference point right

Now the question is how much grappling have you done with top level guys, how many competitions have you done so you have a frame of reference when you talk about not needing to use strength in tat setting....how much extenral training have you done so you can actually compare the two and decide which is superior :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that all Taiji people should visit with William CC Chen, just once.

[JamesC]

Oh boy...:rolleyes: I don't suppose you are a follower of Ayn Rand too.

Look, if you want to drill down into "evidence" then we'd probably have to get all scientific about it. And I don't think either of us has time to do that. YouTube clips really prove nothing because anyone can cherry pick the clips to prove their point.

All we can really talk about here is our experience and our interpretation of it. Now, I happened to study under a very "high level" (I use that term loosely) Taiji master and he could school me despite being a fraction of my weight using very little effort.

Could I have popped in the face if we really fought? Probably, I don't think he'd done a lot of fighting. But once you're in the clinch with him, game over because he can feel where you're going and you can't figure out how he's manipulating your force.


So you're saying that he has no fighting experience, but he's awesome at push hands?

I'm not intending to insult here, btw. Your last paragraph just makes no sense.

If you can simply punch someone in the face, why wouldn't you if you were trying to hurt them? I suppose TC practitioners just think everyone is gonna root themselves and get in position for the shoving match?

Seriously, if you want to learn to fight you go to someone who has done a lot of it. You don't go to someone who has a bunch of theories on how it might be, or how it was that one time a soccer dad got in his face.

That's like saying you know how to drive because you play a lot of Gran Turismo.

[MightyB]

I honestly would love to try to uproot a tai chi guy. I've always wanted to try. Not by brutishly pushing tai chi demo style, but with the skills I've learned as a thrower. I've never had the chance, but I'd love the opportunity. I'm saying any throwing combination, sweeps, skilled sacrifices... the whole 9 yards minus striking just to test this "root" concept. Do it in a timed scenario... say something like "knock this guy down in 30 seconds or less" type of thing. And I wouldn't be doing it to be an A-hole. I'd be willing to do it in private (no cameras - and no telling the results if I succeeded). I would however be the biggest supporter of Tai Chi and I'd be super vocal in my support if I honestly gave it my all and tried to throw a guy and absolutely couldn't.

Seriously - I'm curious in a curious and friendly way but I want absolute proof of concept. I am definitely not a my style is better and I'm a tough guy type of person.

I just want to know if there's something real in root training.

[Eric Olson]

oh i dont know i did tai chi for about 7 years with a few guys who had studied it for over 2 decades they were pretty good but not well known masters, but hey it gives me a reference point right.

Now the question is how much grappling have you done with top level guys, how many competitions have you done so you have a frame of reference when you talk about not needing to use strength in tat setting....how much extenral training have you done so you can actually compare the two and decide which is superior :rolleyes:

Yeah, you know what's funny, how you totally ignored the point where I basically agreed with MK that BJJ probably embodies many of the same principles as the so-called internal arts.

It's funny how binary people are. Are you a computer? Are you going to melt down if I present a slightly different point of view?

2+2=5...oh ****, look out, he might explode :eek:

EO

[bawang]

ju jitsu is internal kung fu

helio= internal master

[KC Elbows]

I honestly would love to try to uproot a tai chi guy. I've always wanted to try. Not by brutishly pushing tai chi demo style, but with the skills I've learned as a thrower. I've never had the chance, but I'd love the opportunity. I'm saying any throwing combination, sweeps, skilled sacrifices... the whole 9 yards minus striking just to test this "root" concept. Do it in a timed scenario... say something like "knock this guy down in 30 seconds or less" type of thing. And I wouldn't be doing it to be an A-hole. I'd be willing to do it in private (no cameras - and no telling the results if I succeeded). I would however be the biggest supporter of Tai Chi and I'd be super vocal in my support if I honestly gave it my all and tried to throw a guy and absolutely couldn't.

Seriously - I'm curious in a curious and friendly way but I want absolute proof of concept. I am definitely not a my style is better and I'm a tough guy type of person.

I just want to know if there's something real in root training.

As someone who does a style closely related to the other taiji styles, I think there's a lot of people whose view of root is limited by their experience. Root is one concept, but it's not a solution to all problems, and it's not unique to taiji. Stationary root is not even a good goal.

If you go to throw me, and I can put weight where it makes your throw impossible, that's a good answer, and is rooting. If I can move so it changes our relative leverages and prevents your throw, that's a good thing, and if I can do so using footwork that allows me to do it well balanced given all forces involved, this is root in motion and is a good thing. This is not unique to taiji.

What root isn't is the ability to statically stop a viable attack. What it isn't is a state on it's own, when discussing fighting. No matter how rooted one routinely is in all stances when shadow boxing, doing form, etc, if one ends up in the wrong position or relative stance to deal with the opponent's position and relative stance, the more they dig in, the worse it is. In fighting, rootedness isn't how strong your stance is, but that your stance and footwork are competent, strong, and mainly, relevant to what your opponent is doing.

That's my opinion.

As an aside, if you're ever in the KC area, feel free to contact me, I get together with a number of guys from different backgrounds here and work clinches and throws a good amount, but I can't promise you some mystical rooting thing, where my root is strong at that moment, I probably won't get thrown, where it's off, where yours is better in motion, I'll get thrown.

[Eric Olson]

oh i dont know i did tai chi for about 7 years with a few guys who had studied it for over 2 decades they were pretty good but not well known masters, but hey it gives me a reference point right


Here's a bit about my lineage of Taiji. I'm not a disciple of the style or anything but I trained with people that were for about 10 years.

http://www.stltaiji.com/documents/articlefinland.pdf

EO

[KC Elbows]

Good taiji requires developing monster leg strength, forearm strength, shoulder strength, chest and back strength, and using it requires minimizing the dependence on any one muscle group to pull off the move.

Like everything else.

[bawang]

chen xiaowang's father was killed in the cultural revolution. chen family will never be honest with outsiders. non chen village people are for milking nothing more.

theres no such thing as taijiquan. there is chen village boxing, a group of various boxing styles practiced by a village of hundreds of people. styles still surviving include 13 ideas soft boxing, 2 road cannon fist and 108 longfist.

theres nothing unique or special about tai chi philosophy, theyre just grossly exaggerated from long fist.
tai chi sayings are copy paste from long fist manuals.

[KC Elbows]

Two major problems that arise from people's views on push hands:

1) Lower level players see higher level players doing well and assume tht, since they are standing there, that rootedness is static, when the higher level players are playing with their own weight distribution by waist control and posture, in effect moving from stance to stance without stepping.

2) The exclusion of pivots and later, footwork, in many people's push hands, which can work setups for techniques that step through, give a false impression of a set of styles that has constant footwork in their form as styles emphasizing rootedness instead of just using it as another tool.

[Eric Olson]

I honestly would love to try to uproot a tai chi guy. I've always wanted to try.
I just want to know if there's something real in root training.

I'm not really familiar with a rooting concept in Taiji? Much more prevalent in something like Hung Gar, as far as I know.

In Taiji you are connected to the ground, yes, but you don't really try to resist someone pushing you. Like I said, sounds more like Hung Gar.

EO

[KC Elbows]

I'm not really familiar with a rooting concept in Taiji? Much more prevalent in something like Hung Gar, as far as I know.

In Taiji you are connected to the ground, yes, but you don't really try to resist someone pushing you. Like I said, sounds more like Hung Gar.

EO

A ton of taiji people stress it a lot, and it is a concept of taiji.

Rootedness and yeilding are both concepts of taiji. What many people don't understand is how to yeild, at some point there must be a redirect or the opponent acheives their goal and you lose your balance/get hit/get thrown.

The how requires understanding what is being given you, not just understanding your taiji. You must experience many different people at equal or above your own level in many different arts and approaches to get a good feel for how this works.

[YouKnowWho]

I just want to know if there's something real in root training.
Many years ago, there was 2 TCMA masters in Taiwan. Every year they met, One guy who claimed to have strong rooting would stay in a low horse stance. The other guy then used a foot sweep to take him down. Years after years, the strong rooting guy could not understand why the other guy always swept him down. Finally, the othr guy told the strong rooting guy, "It has nothing to do with your rooting. It's just simple physics. When I moved your center to be outside of your base, the gravity will take you down."

[YouKnowWho]

but you don't really try to resist someone pushing you.
Onething that I have found out in the past, most of the Taiji guys may have skill against "pushing", but if you use quick "pulling" followed by quick "pushing", they may get confused.

[Lucas]

Onething that I have found out in the past, most of the Taiji guys may have skill against "pushing", but if you use quick "pulling" followed by quick "pushing", they may get confused.

hahahahahahah...sad thing is its true.

[Lucas]

if someone comes to portland i always refer them to meet gregory fong sifu or duy minh tran sifu. they have good taiji here.

[Merryprankster]

Sweet. I have a black belt in an internal art. Judo and wrestling are also internal then. Good to know. Yesterday, I was boxing with a guy, and I made him miss me, which put him off balance. He stepped by me, and I tagged him with two right hooks to the body and a left hook to the melon. I borrowed his strength for sure.

I couldn't have that black belt, or have made him miss me if I didn't have the strength and endurance to pull it off.

If a guy is stronger, faster or better than you, when he's tired, he's none of those things. Skill maximizes your effectiveness by amplifying your attributes. And you cannot develop skill if you don't have the attributes needed to constantly test them and refine them under pressure.

[KC Elbows]

Sweet. I have a black belt in an internal art. Judo and wrestling are also internal then. Good to know. Yesterday, I was boxing with a guy, and I made him miss me, which put him off balance. He stepped by me, and I tagged him with two right hooks to the body and a left hook to the melon. I borrowed his strength for sure.

I couldn't have that black belt, or have made him miss me if I didn't have the strength and endurance to pull it off.

If a guy is stronger, faster or better than you, when he's tired, he's none of those things. Skill maximizes your effectiveness by amplifying your attributes. And you cannot develop skill if you don't have the attributes needed to constantly test them and refine them under pressure.

Your post is true, but without silk pajamas, you're still external.

[Lucas]

Your post is true, but without silk pajamas, you're still external.
Quit giving away the inner secrets.

[Syn7]

No, silk jammies automatically makes you super awesome guy. And if they're white, even better. ;)

It actually makes the difference between internal and external. But you won't understand 'till you get your first set.






I've never worn them, but they have got to be pretty comfortable. I had a pair of silk boxers once. Not exactly the kind of thing you wanna sweat in, but it sure feels good. Airy as fukc. On a nice summer day with a cool breeze, prolly feels like you're naked.

[Frost]

Yeah, you know what's funny, how you totally ignored the point where I basically agreed with MK that BJJ probably embodies many of the same principles as the so-called internal arts.

It's funny how binary people are. Are you a computer? Are you going to melt down if I present a slightly different point of view?

2+2=5...oh ****, look out, he might explode :eek:

EO

and you know what else if funny, merry was talking about BJJ when he said you needed both skill and physical attributes..(he is a blackbelt that competes) ....so since you agree it can be seen as an internal art do you also agree that other internal arts also need strength and conditioning.......oh look you agree with me and the rest you just didnt know it :eek:

[Eric Olson]

A ton of taiji people stress it a lot, and it is a concept of taiji.

I believe you but maybe I know it by another name ie what is it called in Chinese?



Rootedness and yeilding are both concepts of taiji. What many people don't understand is how to yeild, at some point there must be a redirect or the opponent acheives their goal and you lose your balance/get hit/get thrown.

Yes, I know what you are talking about.




The how requires understanding what is being given you, not just understanding your taiji. You must experience many different people at equal or above your own level in many different arts and approaches to get a good feel for how this works.

[Eric Olson]

Sweet. I have a black belt in an internal art. Judo and wrestling are also internal then.

Not exaclty, what I'm saying is that some of the principles/strategies are the same even if the techniques aren't executed quite the same.

Just out of curiosity have you ever wrestled/pushed/whatever with highly-skilled Taiji master?

I'd encourage it, if only to prove that you're right.



If a guy is stronger, faster or better than you, when he's tired, he's none of those things. Skill maximizes your effectiveness by amplifying your attributes. And you cannot develop skill if you don't have the attributes needed to constantly test them and refine them under pressure.

This has been mostly enjoyable discussion and hopefully provoked some thought, but I think we've covered all the ground we can via the written word and we're just going in circles.

I'd just encourage you to test some of your skills against a really skilled and reputable internal practitioners and see if you hold the same viewpoint. As someone coming from an "external" martial art, it changed my view.

Cheers,

EO

[Eric Olson]

so since you agree it can be seen as an internal art do you also agree that other internal arts also need strength and conditioning.

Read my original post for my thoughts on this.

EO

[MightyB]

As an aside, if you're ever in the KC area, feel free to contact me, I get together with a number of guys from different backgrounds here and work clinches and throws a good amount, but I can't promise you some mystical rooting thing, where my root is strong at that moment, I probably won't get thrown, where it's off, where yours is better in motion, I'll get thrown.

I may have to take you up on that - I'll bring the beer! KC is supposed to have good steak - so you bring the steaks... Although I'm poor- so it may be awhile before I can take a real vacation and get out there.

Anyway- I do think there's something to high level yielding. I'm a tactile learner, so first hand experience is the only way I'll be able to incorporate it in my approach to MA... hence my curiosity in trying to uproot a good tai chi guy. I win by losing because if he does yield and it leads to me being off-balanced and thrown- I feel the process first hand and can begin to internalize the concepts. The biggest disappointment for me would be if I do throw the guy.

[Merryprankster]

Not exaclty, what I'm saying is that some of the principles/strategies are the same even if the techniques aren't executed quite the same.

Just out of curiosity have you ever wrestled/pushed/whatever with highly-skilled Taiji master?

I'd encourage it, if only to prove that you're right.



This has been mostly enjoyable discussion and hopefully provoked some thought, but I think we've covered all the ground we can via the written word and we're just going in circles.

I'd just encourage you to test some of your skills against a really skilled and reputable
internal practitioners and see if you hold the same viewpoint. As someone coming from
an "external" martial art, it changed my view.


Cheers,

EO


I haven't. Have you tested your skills against high level Judoka, wrestlers and BJJ people? I'm talking Olympic caliber, ie genuine masters as objectively measured in the meritocratic systems each possess? I have. I can't say it changed my perspective. I was only in awe of the skills. But I know a lot about how they got them.

I doubt sparring with anybody would change my perspective. In my world, there is only skilled and not skilled. Philosophical distinctions are therefore meaningless.

And I don't think we're going round in circles. I don't think my point is coming across, but I am at a loss to make it better. My failing.

[bawang]

push hands is just an excercise. dont mean sh1t.

[YouKnowWho]

have you ever FOUGHT one

I have done that many times in my life. One Taiji master and his wife knocked on my door and challenged me "push hands" in my own living room. I told him that even if I do Taiji, I don't do push hands, but I'm willing to spar or wrestle with him. He said that he had bad knee and he could not wrestle or spar, so we just sat down, had some tea, and talked. Later on people told me that he had challenged many people in push hands (people said that he was European push hands champion that year).

The reason that I don't do push hands because I had bad experience before. Oneday I was training in the park by myself, a Taiji teacher just finished his class on the otherside of the park. He and one of his students walked toward me and want to "touch hand" with me. Since I didn't understand what "touch hands" mean,

- I grabbed on his arm, he said, "No grabbing".
- I scooped his leg, he said, "No leg".
- I moved in and tried to run him down, he said, "Be careful, I'm an old man (later on I found out that he was younger than me)".
- He pushed me, I stepped back, he said, "You lose". :o :(

[-N-]

- I grabbed on his arm, he said, "No grabbing".
- I scooped his leg, he said, "No leg".
- I moved in and tried to run him down, he said, "Be careful, I'm an old man (later on I found out that he was younger than me)".
- He pushed me, I stepped back, he said, "You lose". :o :(

Maybe you lost when you listened to him about no grabbing :)

[bawang]

He and one of his students walked toward me and want to "touch hand" with me. (

exactly man. tai chi peopl always wanna push hands and then think they "won"

[YouKnowWho]

Too mamy restriction in Taiji push hand. That make the training not very useful. When you control your opponent's arms, your opponent has to "break away your control". At that moment, all you need is to let go your control and attack. you'll have that 1/10 second upper hand on your opponent. The reason is simple, to "release a control" is faster than to "break a control".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK8oHEB4lU8

In the above clip at 0.06, the reason that your opponent could push you is because you didnot grab on his wrist and control his arm. Why do you want to give him that kind of freedom? If you control his arms by grabbing both of his wrists (put him in defense), when he tries to break your grips, you suddently attack. Trying to assume that your opponent will never grab your wrist is not realistic in combat.

[bawang]

Trying to assume that your opponent will never grab your wrist is not realistic in combat.

thats because push hands is not combat. if u see a taichi guy talking about fighting ask him to show u the tai chi fighting stance. their eyes go blank.

[Darthlawyer]

I think an internal vs. external debate ultimately ends up being silly. I know people who are skilled in external styles who believe that internal work has helped their external kung fu. However, I've yet to meet anyone who's ever only practiced an internal style who can fight with it. And I mean actually fight, or at least full contact spar.

[taai gihk yahn]

I think an internal vs. external debate ultimately ends up being silly. I know people who are skilled in external styles who believe that internal work has helped their external kung fu. However, I've yet to meet anyone who's ever only practiced an internal style who can fight with it. And I mean actually fight, or at least full contact spar.

so-called internal stylists sh1t gold bouillon and therefore have no need for proving their skills to anyone

[ginosifu]

I have not read the whole post and I do not know how you got from Skill VS Strength onto Taiji Push Hands BUT:

You guys are looking at this the wrong way. Taiji Push Hands is nothing more than sensitivity training. Most modern people play that worthless push hands that you see at the tournaments.

Look at it this way;

Wrestlers learn sensitivity thru grappling drills and wrestling with partners. The more you practice, the more sensitive you are to your opponent.

Shuai Chiao fighters learn sensitivity thru SC drills and grappling with partners. The more you practice, the more sensitive you are to your opponeent.

Taiji fighters learn sensitivity thru push hands drills and GRAPPLING / WRESLTING with partners. The more you practice, the more sensitive you are to your opponent.

The only way you will ever get good at push hands is to pressure test it thru grappling and wrestling with the drills.

I don't know you guys keep on this topic.... If you practice Taiji push hands and you wish to learn how to really fight with it.... go practice with a wrestler or Shuai Chiao fighter, Judo, BJJ etc etc. Take the drills you have learn and try to apply them.

ginosifu

[Darthlawyer]

Of course, there was this one time in college, when I was taking a Tai Chi class for a P.E. credit. I got really really drunk and tried to fight someone really slowly. I'm glad I don't get drunk and wake up in the hospital anymore.

[wiz cool c]

The reason that I don't do push hands because I had bad experience before. Oneday I was training in the park by myself, a Taiji teacher just finished his class on the otherside of the park. He and one of his students walked toward me and want to "touch hand" with me. Since I didn't understand what "touch hands" mean,

- I grabbed on his arm, he said, "No grabbing".
- I scooped his leg, he said, "No leg".
- I moved in and tried to run him down, he said, "Be careful, I'm an old man (later on I found out that he was younger than me)".
- He pushed me, I stepped back, he said, "You lose". :o :([/QUOTE]

cool story. i got a little tired of push hand too, since i have been doing shuai jiao. it is just so much more easier to find partners to train with in grappling,and their just isn't a whole lot of good reason to stick to the push hands rules. and even if you have a person who never trained before, it is easier to just say put on the jacket and try to trow me then to teach him a million rules about pushhands.

[Violent Designs]

So why don't Taiji do "full-contact wrestling."

Wrestling with strikes.

Not just push-hands which is just like glorified chi-sao...

[Eric Olson]

So why don't Taiji do "full-contact wrestling."

Wrestling with strikes.

Not just push-hands which is just like glorified chi-sao...

Seems like people have a really skewed view of what push hands is. It was never meant to be a "competition", just a set of training drills.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pushing_hands

EO

[wenshu]

wow

just, wow

[ginosifu]

So why don't Taiji do "full-contact wrestling."

Wrestling with strikes.

Not just push-hands which is just like glorified chi-sao...

Here in the USA people have taken Taiji and turned it into some kinda health art. There is very little martial importance for Taiji peeps here. Push Hands for these folks is a fun game of sorts.

Taiji Push Hands original purpose was just sensivity drills just like any other Martial Art style.

ginosifu

[Eric Olson]

Here in the USA people have taken Taiji and turned it into some kinda health art. There is very little martial importance for Taiji peeps here. Push Hands for these folks is a fun game of sorts.

Taiji Push Hands original purpose was just sensivity drills just like any other Martial Art style.

ginosifu

I think it also to work on body mechanics but to make it into competition really misses the point.

Miluo, you can think of it as making da sam sing or five star blocking into a competition...which BTW I have seen recently advertised at some Hung Gar sponsored tournaments...WTF????

That being said, you don't see a lot of free sparring at Taijj schools. I don't know why? Did they used to free spar? Are they worried about hurting each other? (Legend has it push hands was created as a way to practice skills without hurting your training partner. )

Not sure, but even if you are skilled at push hands (ie manipulating people in the clinch) you're missing a way to learn to apply the striking part of Taiji (which at least is a part of Chen Taiji --see the Canon fist set from my teacher's teacher http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4w_62WX9Rk)

That's why I think Taiji people would do poorly in San Da for example because they don't ever practice the striking which you really need to glove up for.

EO

[KC Elbows]

I may have to take you up on that - I'll bring the beer! KC is supposed to have good steak - so you bring the steaks... Although I'm poor- so it may be awhile before I can take a real vacation and get out there.

Anyway- I do think there's something to high level yielding. I'm a tactile learner, so first hand experience is the only way I'll be able to incorporate it in my approach to MA... hence my curiosity in trying to uproot a good tai chi guy. I win by losing because if he does yield and it leads to me being off-balanced and thrown- I feel the process first hand and can begin to internalize the concepts. The biggest disappointment for me would be if I do throw the guy.

To be fair, I do taixuquan, which Chen stylists in China seem to consider taiji, and everyone else says "tai what?" It is very similar in ways to chen style. Our push hands seems to allow grips, though it's much more common to see the upper arm gripped than the wrist. Anyway, hopefully someday you'll be able to travel, I'll be able to buy steak, and we can shoot the sh1t over the topic.

As for yeilding, I approach things from a philosophically taoist perspective, and my style seems to do the same. To always yeild is placing a virtue on yeilding, instead of letting it simply be yeilding. I'd rather be flexible in accepting all scenarios, and thus capable of dealing with all scenarios, rather than pigeonhole everything into somehow being vulnerable to yeilding.

As an example, if someone pulls me, pushing forward is yeilding, this is common thinking in judo. Where some people fail is in failing to recognize that sometimes, you can decide what the other guy is going to deal with. If you can't deal with that, fighting is going to be a problem.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When two boxers wanna see who is better they box.
When two wrestlers want to see who is better they wrestle.
When two bJJ guys wanna see who is better they "roll".
When two TKD guys want to see who is better, they spar.
Etc, ec, etc

When two Taiji guys wanna test themselves ( see who is better) they do push hand.
When two WC guys wanna see who has the better WC, they do chi sao.

Enough said.
:p

[Iron_Eagle_76]

When two Taiji guys wanna test themselves ( see who is better) they do push hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4



When two WC guys wanna see who has the better WC, they do chi sao.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2fNPW9OgmY&feature=related

:D

[lkfmdc]

When two Taiji guys wanna test themselves ( see who is better) they do push hand.



and if the guy from Taiwan loses, he simply changes the official record and makes sure the video tape disappears (true story)

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2fNPW9OgmY&feature=related

:D

ROTFLMAO !!!
Well played sir !

[Eric Olson]

When two Taiji guys wanna test themselves ( see who is better at push hands) they do push hand.
:p

There, now it's correct. :D

EO

[sanjuro_ronin]

There, now it's correct. :D

EO

I only wish that was how it was, LOL !

[Eric Olson]

Me too, my friend, me too....:rolleyes::p:cool:

[Lucas]

sparring with my friends young son yesterday. he says 'you're too fast i cant hit you' i told him the secret. that from this point he only gets faster and i only get slower. at one point we will cross and be at the same speed and then he will pass me. then i have to rely on my skill more much more. at this point i can beat u with just speed and basics...but only for so long.'

:o

[MightyB]

(I'm picking on Tai Chi as an example - you can replace TC with whatever name you wish)

I'm beginning to wonder if Tai Chi knows what it's supposed to be, or what it's supposed to look like - is it uprooting, throwing with strikes - like combat SC? and if so, combat SC does a better job at being combat SC...

Same thing can be said for a lot of martial arts. Maybe we should define, at least for ourselves, what the martial art we're practicing is supposed to look like and accomplish.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

(I'm picking on Tai Chi as an example - you can replace TC with whatever name you wish)

I'm beginning to wonder if Tai Chi knows what it's supposed to be, or what it's supposed to look like - is it uprooting, throwing with strikes - like combat SC? and if so, combat SC does a better job at being combat SC...

Same thing can be said for a lot of martial arts. Maybe we should define, at least for ourselves, what the martial art we're practicing is supposed to look like and accomplish.

Effective Kung Fu:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWcwjKhltec&feature=related

Non Effective Kung Fu:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq2dOlf16Ls