Mas Oyama

[Sum Sing Wong]

I was reading in one of my books about this Karate teacher (Zen in the Martial Arts) and the writer said that he rememebers when he saw a film where Mas Oyama went head to head with a charging bull and brought the bull to the ground with 2 blows, The first blow sliced a horn in half, the second hammered the bull sqaure on the head which stunned it. Has anyone seen this? It is kinda hard for me to believe this story, so if a few can confirm it or give me a site that might have the video on it would be helpful.
Thanks

[Ralek]

There was a post a while back about this. By a direct student of Mas Oyama said that the video was propaganda and not even real and he said that the didn't show it to Westerners becuase they would just laugh at how fake it looked.

And he also said that Mas Oyama had never actually been in a fight in his life to the best of his knowledge. He said that the years Mas Oyama was supposedly fighting a lot he actually never fought.

People's imaginations can make mediocre fighters look like gods. Look at Bruce Lee. Sucky fighter who is now a god becuase of the things fanatical students say.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[Kung Lek]

Ralek, once again you have made an ass of yourself.

Sum Sing Wong, do a search on Mas Oyama and as well look into Kyokushin Kai (sp?) karate the system he founded which is the governing body for the K1 -K3 fights.

There are plenty of photos of Mas breaking the Bulls horn off and he used to be big on proving his karate was strong.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Johnny Hot Shot]

He is the man Mas (http://www.kyokushin.be/english/e-frames.html). Hmm I used to have a bookmark to the site that showed a video of Mas and the bull. very impressive.

"Life's a great Adventure, Mate"
Jacko Jackson

[Mojo]

I can't believe it, but I agree with Ralek.
I read that article by the student of Oyama, and it definitly says that the horn break was a prearranged stunt and that the horn had been broken beforhand with a hammer.

I am the most humble person you'll ever meet.

[Stranger]

Which student of Oyama said this?

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[Mojo]

I think his name is John Blumming. He was Oyama's most famous European student.

I am the most humble person you'll ever meet.

[Kung Lek]

all politics aside, I think that from what I understand of Oyama, this "student' wasn't a student at all but just some guy that got his arse kicked and was all ticky about it :D hahahahaha.

people get nasty when they don't get their way.

I'm a Kung Fu player and I was a karateka in my younger days (Isshin Ryu) and I can state categorically that Kyukoshin is not a "tag match" style like so many others. No disrespects to any Karateka or martial arts players.

The Kyukoshin guys are the hardcore karate guys on the block.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Stranger]

Blumming is a serious tough guy, but he also blows a lot of hot air (none of which ever crept out of his mouth while Oyama was alive). They had a disagreement as to how to maximize one's karate potential. Blumming has a history of knocking on other Japanese martial artists, meanwhile he still proudly wears the ranks they gave him, and won't let anybody forget it).

I would take anything Blumming says about any other martial artist with a shovel full of salt.

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[les paul]

Mas Oyama otherwise known as "God Hand" by the Japanese.

Little info:

Most of the time the blow was struck from behind as the bull charged by. Mas Oyama learned this from seeing a bull once break off its horns while pulling its head back out of a fence.

Horns of a bull are broken easier this way than a blow from the front.

It still takes a lot of force to break the horns of a bull, he would usally wrestle (Hog tie in a simmular to Texas Rodeo style) the bull to deliver the strike than would stun it.

However, sometimes things go wrong, Mas Oyamma was gored several times(once very seriously almost costing him his life.)

As far as his fighting record
Mas Oyama once fought 241 opponents, wrestlers, boxer, karateka etc in a 24 hour peroid never once having lost.

Most were finished with one strike.

Pound for pound, Mas Oyama but Mike Tyson to shame.

His no# 1 student(I forget his name) in order to come to America and teach under his name, had to fight a 100 bouts in a row. This is all public knowledge that can be found on the web and in book or video.

Mas Oyama was very real!

His soul goal was to find truth through Karatedo
he pursued this truth with a religion type passion, few of us have in us (I don't thats for sure)

[CD Lee]

Where you been? Have not seen any trouble from you lately. It is getting BORING...

Challenge somebody, the last one kinda died.

[oldwolf]

Mojo, I think that Shihan Arneil might have some thing to say about who was the toughest Kyuokoshin, he was the first 100 man, thats Shihan Steve Arneil, don't call me spanky.

"And the crowd called out for more"

[DragonzRage]

"As far as his fighting record Mas Oyama once fought 241 opponents, wrestlers, boxer, karateka etc in a 24 hour peroid never once having lost."

Bull. I'm sorry, but that's a fairy tale.

[yungwun]

When you go to the mountains and do nothing but train in seclusion for 3 years, you're probably going to be strong. That's what Oyama did. He proved his strength many times.

The only reason a warrior is alive is to fight, and the only reason a warrior fights is to win. Otherwise, why be a warrior? It is easier to count beads. -Miyamoto Musashi

[Piccolo Junior]

No DragonzRage, it's pretty well documented. It's where the 100 Man Kumite came from.

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

[DragonzRage]

But is it REALLY documented, or is it one of those hand me down stories that Kyokushinkai seniors tell to students who look up to Sensei Oyama greatly? My undertstanding is that Oyama had a bunch of back to back kumite sparring matches and won ever single one. But as I said, these were KUMITE SPARRING MATCHES. And all the people he was sparring with were his Kyokushinkai students and underlings (obviously, they cannot possibly be considered serious opponents). But did he have any real fights with other reputable Japanese martial artists outside of his organization? Or did he put it on the line against any decent boxer? No. There has been no documented accounts and evidence of this other than the implications and stpries told by the Kyokushinkai people. Oyama spent a reasonable amount of time in America doing karate demonstrations (I believe he was touring with an American pro wrestling show). Now through all that time, if he was such a "godhand" you would think that he'd use the opportunity to fight some decent American fighters. But he didn't. He could've had a publicized exhibition match with a decent boxer or something. But all documented evidence shows that he simply demonstrated his karate and broke bricks and stuff.

[Stranger]

Oyama had a fourth dan in Judo (which by all accounts he earned on the matt), so he has many "fights" under those rules with people who were not his students.

Oyama studied many arts (not just karate styles) with the very top instructors of the period, so I doubt too much would have totally surprised him. He was acknowledged as somebody who could "throw down" by his peers.

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[Ralek]

Actually John Blumming was Oyama's friend or something and was picked by Oyama to be the representative of the style or something. But Blummming declined. And supposedly Oyama told stories to his students about how deadly John Blumming was and the students were terrified when John Blumming visited and he met a student out side standing guard.

I think John Blumming said that the reason he was writting the post was becuase that people had highly exaggerated Mas Oyama when he died. He said that one of the black belts left oyama and started training with him once Oyama started calling himself the "God Hand". And he said that he was studying with Mas Oyama when Oyama suppsoedly had a bunch of fights or something. He said that Oyama never even fought a single time during that period of time.

I think John Blummings story shocked a bunch of karate guys who worshipd Oyama so they make Blumming look like he is unqualified. You guys say Blumming got beat up by the japanese guys? By who? Please give me details.

Blumming was giving his ranks by Oyama himself and was asked to be the representative or somehting.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[les paul]

Thanks Oldwolf, I couldn't remember his name.

In reference to Mas Oyama touring with a wrestling troup. I heard that he did, buy I was told that this was years after his prime.(I could be wrong)
As for the 241 kumite. I don't know what the quality of fighters were, however even 241 cream puffs is still a lot of fighting (I dought that even 25% were considered cream puffs at the time) and is still a huge huge feat of martial prowess. Also I don't think there were actually 241 fighters, I think he fought a lesser number of people mutiple times.

I know I couldn't do it!

Like it or not this is well documented. It happend in the late forties or early fifties.
By then he had a Mike Tyson type reputation, so we can only say he probably had the intimidation factor on his side. Not too many people want to experience Iron Mike up close and personnal. The last fight I seen (it was here in Detroit about a year ago) he broke the guys jaw and fractured his face, the experts still are not sure if it was a head butt or an actual blow.....Remeber?

Still he is an impressive stand up fighter....no question about that.

The same goes for Mas Oyama. Seroiusly the guy became a hermit up in the mountains of Japan. All he did was practice Karate and strike boulders and trees etc etc

That some spiritual dedication to your art, by then you are your art.

[les paul]

Once again you have proven that you are a troll.

How old are you? "let me guess 19 or something?"

You just don't get it do you? You seem to think its a style of martial art that makes you the best. You don't understand that it was the man that made jujitsu what it is today. Not the otherway around.

There comes along in history people who are so skillfull in their art that they are very formidable against anyone(no matter what style)

Your trying to bust Oyama's balls because you see him as some kind of threat to your precious notion of Jujitsu aren't you?

Man, look at the hardcore karate style he created!
That alone is some serious accomplishment!

What are you known for?
Being a troll! that's what
and being a troll is what you will stay if you don't stop spewing crap.

Go away little boy!
Go away

[Sum Sing Wong]

http://jagor.srce.hr/kyokushin-elka/slike/Sosai_Masutatsu_Oyama/2.jpg

[Urbanfist14]

Mas Oyama and all Kyokushin practitioners are hardcore martial artists. If anyone had any contact or experience with Kyokushin fighters, You know what I mean. I have great respect for the no nonsense approach and hard core training that Sosai Oyama has started. So before anyone tries to knock down such an icon, do your homework, visit a Kyokushin School and then pose your opinion.

With Respects . . .

[wingchun.com]

http://www.kyokushinmail.com/koya/Kyokushin.htm

Video clips and all.

As for history:

http://www.kyokushinmail.com/koya/stories/history.htm

[Stranger]

Josh,

If I thought for one second you knew one single fact about Oyama, Blumming. kyokushin, etc. I might actually consider debating your ridiculously innacurate statement...
BUT, you don't know d!ck.

If you could travel, your absolute humiliation at the hands of any number of kyokushin BB's could be arranged. As all fights must take place at the Frederick pond, you may sleep well tonight. If you would drive a couple of hours, you would be unconcious within twenty seconds against the kyokushin opponents you could face.

Oyama was one of the first modern cross trained fighters, and would have beaten the living monkey c/rap out of most fighters who's ability you consider beyond question. I'm not saying he was unbeatable, but he trained realistically and long with a dedication seldom seen in the martial art world.

Good night!

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[Wongsifu]

man ive seen some of the videos and pics of oyama , he is sh1t hot , i ve seen him break the bulls horn with a knife hand cop and do the same with bottles lined up. i know people can speculate it is fake but who knows, i will tell you one thing i saw though , was oyama sparring against 2 students and he bounced them like they were a basketball, he dodged one of the attacks , and hit him with a weird looking inside ridge hand , and the student went back a couple of feet and bounced on the floor.

and that 100 man kumite stuff is real you had to do that back in the day to get your black belt from him , he did spar with over 200 people back to back, some of them got up again and again 3 or 4 times , but by sparring they meant that the guy would run in hit oyama and oyama would bounce him away, next....

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[Ralek]

Don't-call-me-spanky. No. How would i see this as a threat to jiujitsu? I am just saying what i have read from an actual student of Mas Oyama.

This is what a student under Mas Oyama said. I don't have any knowledge about Oyama other than what his own personal black belt has said. Basically John Blumming was appauled about all the false hoods going around about Oyama.

Does anyone have a copy of the post? I'm just saying what i have read from an personal student of Oyama that was with Oyama for a long period of time.

Imagine your instructor. NOw your instructor dies and all of a sudden everyone starts saying your instructor was the best ever and starts stories that are false about your instructor fighting 100's of guys. You would be kind of annoyed? This is what John Blumming said.

Maybe John Blumming is lying. I don't know. But i'm just quoting what Blumming has said.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[Budokan]

Just go play your video games, Rolls, and beat off to your posters of wrestlers. Adults are in the room now, and we're talking....

K. Mark Hoover

[JWTAYLOR]

Rolls, that last post of yours was at least semi intellegent and slightly humble.

Quit it. Just be a dumba$$ jerk. My world is small and easily fractured. In it, women are beautiful, the grass is green, the sky is blue, and you're an idiot. Please do not confuse me.

As far as the bull stories go, I absolutely belive that he could knock one out with a strike. It's hard for me to believe he did it in a "bullfight" scenario. As far as the horns being knocked off, again, from a man that has owned many a Brangus bull and done his fair share of bulldogging, it's quit possible. I've seen a young bull crack his horn thrashing in a squeeze chute. Oyama proved over and over that he could smash through many bricks and slabs of rock. The force generated there is more than enough to smack off a horn or two.

The 100 man "randori" is possible as well. The description of "bouncing off" is what everyone described the fights as to me. They were almost all one hit knock downs or big knock backs. Then the next man came up.

And let's also remember that the first people to train under Oyama thought him to be quite insane. His training regiment was at least a little crazy. A man driven. I've always wondered why.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[LEGEND]

Heard this guy was fanatical about training...Bruce Lee was to kung fu...Dan Gable to wrestling...Rickson Gracie to BJJ...OYAMA to karate.

A

[Mojo]

http://www.musashi.nl/RealTruthframe.htm

This is the link to John Blummings account of his years with Oyama.
Read all 5 english exerps and decide for yourself.

I am the most humble person you'll ever meet.

[NafAnal]

Check out that link planet wing chun posted:

http://www.kyokushinmail.com/koya/Kyokushin.htm

Download the sparring videoclips.

Erm, sure his student seems to bounces off him, but if u look at one of them it almost seems if the guy tries to miss Oyama's head, he goes down far too easy.

I know a lot of you will say well that's what master's look like at high levels. It looks like his strikes are weak or effortless, when they in fact do massive damage. But still, his sparring partner was lacking in attitude (and weight) quite a bit.

[les paul]

Yep, looks like two guys sparring to me.

What was your point?

That this is proof that Mas Oyama was a fake?

When you sparr, does someone have to floor you in order for you to learn something?

No.

Do you work on a particular technique in order to hone it to perfection?

Yes

These Mpegs look like two guys sparring, more specific one working on attacking and the other working on defense.

Not two guys going mixing it up hardcore.

[Ralek]

It is official. Oyama was just an ordinary karate guy who's reputation has because redicuously inflated.

It's kind of like all those prophets. Just a bunch of phonies but some people think they have a direct connection to god, ect. Stupid people will easily believe any nonsense they hear.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[Sum Sing Wong]

when you say something is official it just makes it unofficial. From what I have seen he is the real deal, and from what i see, others on this forum think so also.

[joedoe]

It is official. Gracie was just an ordinary Jujitsu guy who's reputation has because ridiculously inflated.

It's kind of like all those prophets. Just a bunch of phonies but some people think they have a direct connection to god, etc. Stupid people will easily believe any nonsense they hear.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

[Ralek]

Abandit. The Gracie's have their fights on tape.

I have video's of Royce smashing in the heads of kung fu instructors in challenge matches at the academy. I have video's of Royce fighitng in the UFC taking out people much larger and stronger than him.

I have videos of Rickson doing the same thing and even have a video of Rickson in a street fight.

Basically the Gracie's got their reputaion by kicking ass. Oyama got his reputation by what fanatical students say.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[joedoe]

There are videos of Oyama fighting.

The Gracies don't need their students to espouse their virtues - they got you. So do you hang out backstage when they are fighting and try and have sex with them afterwards? You are a Gracie groupie after all. Oh, hang on - that's what you call training! You thought rolling around naked on the floor with them was how BJJ is actually trained. Poor Ralek - butt-raped by the Gracies so often he doesn't know what is real and what isn't :D

Did Royce ever fight a bull? :D

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

[Wongsifu]

that link is great, look at the power oyama has ,i mean how many guys do you know who can actually bounce someone with a punch and not kill them, its like taiji , you put the intent to go through and hurt the person , you put the intent before and you bounce him...

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[Wongsifu]

i couldnt read that blumming link as it was in dutch and couldnt find english and bable doesnt translate it. however there was a link saying more on mas oyama which was in english and said all about his 12 hour a day fanatical training, so i cant see how bluming was discrediting him !!?!?!
Oh btw oyama won the japan national open 3 times also like kimura i believe so he could say he is undisputed.

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[JennyLiuJKD]

A couple years ago i trained in kyokushinkai karate for a bit. it was good training and an interesting style even though i came to the conclusion that it is more of a guy style. i don't know much about Oyama sensei but for what it's worth even my old teacher said that a lot of the stories were either fabrications and exaggerations, not to say he didn't think Oyama sensei was an extremely skilled and powerful karateka. But he seemed pretty jaded about aspects of the organization and felt that there was always too much politics involved especially in Oyama sensei's days. Which is partly why so many exaggerations about him were made up and people were expected to worship him. My teacher was an honest guy who did karate for love of the art. And he was also good in boxing and brazilian jiu jitsu although he taught nothing but karate in that dojo.

Deadliness is often masked by beauty

[NafAnal]

I never tried to prove he was fake, i just said his sparring partner was crap.

[Sum Sing Wong]

If you think can come to a conclusion that Mas's sparring partners were bull, then I could probly say the same about the gracies beating up some "kung fu" guy.

[les paul]

Sorry nafanal either I misread your post, or misjudge why you put the address to the site.

Always there are puffed up stories told about so an so, but that doesn't mean that the individual was a fake. If we take all the facts and place them in two piles, one that supports he was a master and the other that say's otherwise, the biggest pile by far would be the "he was a master pile." Also, in any organization the size of Mass Oyama's there is bound to be heavy politcs.
Just look at the JKA(Japanese Karate Asso) for example, "man, what a mess that was" (and still is). That said, there are some great Karateka inside that organization.

Again, Ralek loves to discredit anything non-BJJ. What I figure is that some CMA kicked his azz really good some time ago. Why else would he spend all this time on a CMA news group slaggin us.

Am I right Ralek?

If I'm not, I bet I'm close to the truth.

[Kung Lek]

This is the inherent problem with fame.
Those who would want a piece of what you have done either create a cult of personality or dismiss you as a fraud. Not often is the simple lesson taken for what it is, a lesson.

Buddha was elevated to a god in some sects even at the protests of the buddha!
The same can be said of Jesus depending on your perception and beliefs as well Mohammed and all the rest.

To me, it is in the lessons and teachings where a person can find the value from anothers trials and tribulations. Application to the self is where it serves you best.

In simpler terms, it is the deeds, words and actions that are great and not the act of following the person who did, said or acted.
follow the words, act on their meaning to do great deeds, if done with humility, much can be accomplished een by an anonymous person.

I of course, have not fully learned how to do this yet :D

But, I'm just another guy, walkin around, eating food and doin stuff :D

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Yin Chuan]

Mas Oyama was definately an innnovator.He was one of the first karateka to expouse weight training in his training and there are pictures of him training with weights.I owned one of his books when I was a kid "What Is Karate" I believe it was called and it had many exercises especially weight training.It was Shigeru Oyama(no relation)I beleive who fought the 100 man kumite before he came to the US and started a Kyokushin school in New York City.A good film of the Kyokushin style is "Black Fighting Kings" and I have it on video.Excellent story on the style that follows the training of three guys from New York city dojo who train under sensei oyama for the anual fighting tournament in japan.The rules I believe were no punches to the face but anywhere else but the groin were legal full contact and also kicks to the head and legs were allowed full contact and no protective gear was allowed(for hands and feet).In this video there were even some thai boxers who competed and did well.Sensei oyama was also one of the first true cross trainers having trained in shotokan under funikoshi,goju under gogen"the cat"yamaguchi,and judo.He was constantly searching for something more effective.By the way sensei oyama was not japanese but korean by birth and in his book he gives much credit to the chinese martial arts and kenpo(china hands).

[Ironpig]

Some of my best training before CMA came from Kyokushinkai Krate. I enjoyed the tough classes, the full contact training and the pace of the class a great deal..Shins still bear the marks from training..

In fact, I should go back and train that style again to lose the weight I have gained playing video games....heh,

If you get the chance to work with a good school, take it. You will get a chance to see some excellent basics with an emphasis on reality in training.

just a few pennies from a pig.....
-"bigger is BIGGER"

IronPig

[Bucko]

Sosai is for real I know of more than one person who saw the bull fights and I know that he did the 300 man Kumite because My father was one of Sosai's 1st U.S. Students and traveled with him. Sosai made the Kyokushin what it is today by fighting anyone he could. This way he beleived that people would want to train in Kyokushin. Which they did. He was not super man but he was a warrior and set the example for us all. Do a technique a 1,000 times you ae learning it 10,000 times you know it and 100,000 time s you own it . This is a quote from Sosai Oyama

[Oso]

This is the inherent problem with fame.
Those who would want a piece of what you have done either create a cult of personality or dismiss you as a fraud. Not often is the simple lesson taken for what it is, a lesson.

Buddha was elevated to a god in some sects even at the protests of the buddha!
The same can be said of Jesus depending on your perception and beliefs as well Mohammed and all the rest.

To me, it is in the lessons and teachings where a person can find the value from anothers trials and tribulations. Application to the self is where it serves you best.

In simpler terms, it is the deeds, words and actions that are great and not the act of following the person who did, said or acted.
follow the words, act on their meaning to do great deeds, if done with humility, much can be accomplished een by an anonymous person.

I of course, have not fully learned how to do this yet :D

But, I'm just another guy, walkin around, eating food and doin stuff :D

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)


I liked Kung Lek better than David Jaimeson.

:)

;)

:D

:p

[ChinoXL]

you guys know there's this korean movie that they made based on him called "fighter in the wind" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT3BEwnBK90

I'm a bjj guy i know that the gracies have everything on tape that's great they want to prove everything; but at that time in japan cameras was not that easily accessable and from my knowledge the media was following him from dojo to dojo due to the fact that he publicly announced his challenges. He was in japanese newspaper everywhere.

And to Ralek I read your statement and u stated he did not fight AT THAT time. In other words that period of his life; I would definitely hope so when he's that old.

and also BJJ is GREAT but u gotta expand your mind

[danMilwaukee]

undefeated?i thought he had one lose and that was to a tai chi master in china.
anyone know about this?

[Blacktiger]

I heard a story that he through out a challange to all in Japan saying other arts were no good etc etc.

Apparently Hatsumi (Ninjutsu Master) said he would take him on live TV for all to see and after that Sosai shut up - he declined to take him on and ate humble pie.

Not 100% sure if it was Hatsumi it could have been someone else, cant remember who though :confused:

Not sure if there is alot of of truth to this but heard it doing the rounds.

:D