Buk Sing CLF vs Muay Thai

[hskwarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imk8M0I2Mus&feature=player_embedded

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good stuff.
CLF does lend itself to the ring, surprised there aren't more guys doing it.

[hskwarrior]

Good stuff.
CLF does lend itself to the ring, surprised there aren't more guys doing it.

It really does. Partly because we do like to fight and most Hung Sing or Buk Sing people have gotten into street fights and adapted our gung fu to that. the others just try to be "KUNG FU" guys.

One thing that the CLF guy (blake) mentioned that it was conditioning. He'd rather fight in the street than the ring cause its over quick. conditioning and endurance are two important things to have when fighting. regular classes just don't seem to provide that (some may more today than in the past).

This was his first Muay Thai fight as well. He will be fighting again soon. i mentioned to him that he may want to be a tad more aggressive next time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It really does. Partly because we do like to fight and most Hung Sing or Buk Sing people have gotten into street fights and adapted our gung fu to that. the others just try to be "KUNG FU" guys.

One thing that the CLF guy (blake) mentioned that it was conditioning. He'd rather fight in the street than the ring cause its over quick. conditioning and endurance are two important things to have when fighting. regular classes just don't seem to provide that (some may more today than in the past).

This was his first Muay Thai fight as well. He will be fighting again soon. i mentioned to him that he may want to be a tad more aggressive next time.

I didn't see all the fight, too long, but the MT guys seemed more relaxed and in control and more comfortable in the the ring.
The CLF guy was a rookie, but he handled it well, never got overwhelmed and made some solid hits.

Nothing prepares you for a fight other than competition.
If a school chooses to not compete ( which I don't agree with" they should at least have competitions within the school so as to get some "juices flowing".

[hskwarrior]

I agree. still, this was his first Muay Thai match, he'll come around. He really intends to stick to nothing but his CLF techniques too.

[nospam]

hskwarrior

Sounds like you know the BS guy. How long has he been training BS for? This the Melbourne kwoon?

Nice to see the next gen stepping up.

nospam
:cool:

[hskwarrior]

Blake Griffin from peth AU. I believe his sifu is George.

[Violent Designs]

He would have had that fight if he was more experienced and controlled the distance better. Props.

[lone_walker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imk8M0I2Mus&feature=player_embedded

The student showed good Choy Lee Fut skill and a lot of guts! I'm sure he will win next time if he continues to practice.

I've heard about this student's sifu George Michaelson from some Choy Lee Fut brothers in Malaysia. They told me George is a very skilled Buk sing master. He's one of the most senior and most skillful students of both Lacey brother's (Vince and David) for the last 30 years, and has absorbed the best skills from each one. George has also furthered his kung fu under his si gung grandmaster Kong Hing. Blake must feel very priveliged to learn under such a distinguished master!

Thank you for sharing this video hskwarrior!

[BDBSK]

Nice. Good effort. I fought a Thai fighter last night, wish I had filmed it.

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

The student showed good Choy Lee Fut skill and a lot of guts! I'm sure he will win next time if he continues to practice.

I've heard about this student's sifu George Michaelson from some Choy Lee Fut brothers in Malaysia. They told me George is a very skilled Buk sing master. He's one of the most senior and most skillful students of both Lacey brother's (Vince and David) for the last 30 years, and has absorbed the best skills from each one. George has also furthered his kung fu under his si gung grandmaster Kong Hing. Blake must feel very priveliged to learn under such a distinguished master!

Thank you for sharing this video hskwarrior!

Lone Walker, not all of what you say is accurate, you are not aware of the in's and out's of Our Gwoon, so its best to get your facts correct before posting...

Exert from my Masters website for your information:

from www.pantherfist.com

" After the closure of the school in St. Kilda, Master Lacey's devoted disciple Nick Lizos relocated it a short distance away where he resurrected the BUCK SING GWOON in honor of his beloved sifu and the original school he established in Melbourne in 1989. He is presently the official guardian and chief instructor of Australia's "Buck Sing Gwoon" based in Melbourne.

To disassociate and separate himself and his school from his former students who had dishonored and forsaken him, Master Lacey decided to implement changes and improvement to the Buck Sing Gwoon's training curriculum and to focus primarily on combat training for his students. They now spend hardly any time on the practicing of traditional choreographed kung fu forms. Unlike most other CLF schools where the training is concentrated on the learning and practising of forms, Master Lacey believes in adhering to the original motive behind Choy Lay Fut's motto ~ "For COMBAT NOT SPORT" not the reverse! With that in mind, he began to work diligently on seeking new and better ways to improve his overall martial arts combat skills. His innovative nature, martial arts knowledge and experience helped him employ better strategic combat skills to improve on his Buck Sing fighting techniques as well as using more practical and tactical methods for drilling his students. Over the years he had devoted much time and thought into studying the science of Buck Sing combat. With the implementation of his new training curriculum for the Buck Sing Gwoon, Master Lacey's former students in Perth, W. Australia can no longer make the claim that they have inherited the same level in martial arts knowledge or training as his loyal students in Melbourne and America who have benefited from his teachings since 2002

[lkfmdc]

Good stuff.
CLF does lend itself to the ring, surprised there aren't more guys doing it.

eh..................

:mad:

[sanjuro_ronin]

eh..................

:mad:

Ah dude, no offense but when I think CLF I don't think you or Mike, sorry.

[Frost]

Ah dude, no offense but when I think CLF I don't think you or Mike, sorry.

there is a fair bit of CLF out there in full contant sanda etc, especially when compared to the rest of the TCMA world

[Violent Designs]

eh..................

:mad:

Hop Ga moreso than CLF. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

there is a fair bit of CLF out there in full contant sanda etc, especially when compared to the rest of the TCMA world

I don't follow sanshou, though I should since I tend to prefer it to MMA.
But its just never on TV.

[Frost]

I don't follow sanshou, though I should since I tend to prefer it to MMA.
But its just never on TV.

theres a fair few clips and fights on youtube, and we all know how TCMA doesnt like making the move to MMA that much

personally i dont think that CLF fits too well with MMA because a lot of the techniques have the elbows out away from the body, i have seen a few guys duck under the wider punches and with the elbows out the body is exposed to the takedown

[sanjuro_ronin]

theres a fair few clips and fights on youtube, and we all know how TCMA doesnt like making the move to MMA that much

personally i dont think that CLF fits too well with MMA because a lot of the techniques have the elbows out away from the body, i have seen a few guys duck under the wider punches and with the elbows out the body is exposed to the takedown

I think that sanshou should lose the chest guard, smaller gloves that allow for grappling/clinch work better and instill a 30 sec on the ground rule.
Make it more like the Daidojuku but without the space helmet.

[hskwarrior]

Hop Ga moreso than CLF.

I second that! :P

[bawang]

I don't follow sanshou, though I should since I tend to prefer it to MMA.
But its just never on TV.

sanda sucks balls. i hate point throws. cant even clinch past 5 seconds gay prc rule

[lone_walker]

Lone Walker, not all of what you say is accurate, you are not aware of the in's and out's of Our Gwoon, so its best to get your facts correct before posting...

Exert from my Masters website for your information:

from www.pantherfist.com

" After the closure of the school in St. Kilda, Master Lacey's devoted disciple Nick Lizos relocated it a short distance away where he resurrected the BUCK SING GWOON in honor of his beloved sifu and the original school he established in Melbourne in 1989. He is presently the official guardian and chief instructor of Australia's "Buck Sing Gwoon" based in Melbourne.

To disassociate and separate himself and his school from his former students who had dishonored and forsaken him, Master Lacey decided to implement changes and improvement to the Buck Sing Gwoon's training curriculum and to focus primarily on combat training for his students. They now spend hardly any time on the practicing of traditional choreographed kung fu forms. Unlike most other CLF schools where the training is concentrated on the learning and practising of forms, Master Lacey believes in adhering to the original motive behind Choy Lay Fut's motto ~ "For COMBAT NOT SPORT" not the reverse! With that in mind, he began to work diligently on seeking new and better ways to improve his overall martial arts combat skills. His innovative nature, martial arts knowledge and experience helped him employ better strategic combat skills to improve on his Buck Sing fighting techniques as well as using more practical and tactical methods for drilling his students. Over the years he had devoted much time and thought into studying the science of Buck Sing combat. With the implementation of his new training curriculum for the Buck Sing Gwoon, Master Lacey's former students in Perth, W. Australia can no longer make the claim that they have inherited the same level in martial arts knowledge or training as his loyal students in Melbourne and America who have benefited from his teachings since 2002

Dear Mr. Buck Sing Gwoon,

I'm not sure why you are telling me all of this. I didn't claim to know any "facts" about anything, I was just saying what some other people told me about George Michaelson.

Also, I don't understand some of what you say. You say that Nick Lizos is the "guardian" of the buk sing gwoon in Australia. Can you please explain what this means? Aren't there many buk sing gwoons in Australia? In cantonese, "buk sing gwoon" just means "buk sing school". So there are many such schools.

I also don't know what you mean by your last comment. Are you saying that George Michaelson's buk sing is not as good as Nick Lizos' buk sing? If that is what you're saying, then I think it's sad that you've taken a thread that was about a young buk sing fighter who did quite well in his fight, and used it to discredit his sifu for some reason.

[PM]

I think that sanshou should lose the chest guard, smaller gloves that allow for grappling/clinch work better and instill a 30 sec on the ground rule.
Make it more like the Daidojuku but without the space helmet.

i second that!

[Dr.Rob]

17yr old KO Muay Thai in the first minute

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/D9sY9Bi2gHo/

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/D9sY9Bi2gHo/

Nioce 33secs:D

[cerebus]

Some nice vids. I like how the kid in the first clip (the one this thread was started for) really was using his traditional Choy Lay Fut and did a decent job of it. I think that match was pretty even, but that if the CLF guy had been a bit more aggressive he would've had the match. Nice way to represent one's art.

The last clip was nice too. Was that a spinning backfist or a spinning elbow he knocked his opponent out with? Hard to tell.

[V.O.R.]

17yr old KO Muay Thai in the first minute

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/D9sY9Bi2gHo/

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/D9sY9Bi2gHo/


Which one of them is a Buck Sing fighter?

[hskwarrior]

but that if the CLF guy had been a bit more aggressive he would've had the match. Nice way to represent one's art.

That's EXACTLY what i told Blake (the fighter)!!!!!

that last clip he hit the guy with a spinning FOREARM!!!!

[cerebus]

Which one of them is a Buck Sing fighter?

The guy who does the spinning backfist and knocks out the Muay Thai fighter...

[hskwarrior]

How can you tell? :confused:

[cerebus]

How can you tell? :confused:

Uh, because the clip is supposedly of a Choy Li Fut fighter knocking out a Muay Thai fighter...

[Eric Olson]

Dear Mr. Buck Sing Gwoon,

I'm not sure why you are telling me all of this. I didn't claim to know any "facts" about anything, I was just saying what some other people told me about George Michaelson.

Don't take it personally dude, this poster has a very bad attitude. Takes offense at any small thing.

EO

[hskwarrior]

Uh, because the clip is supposedly of a Choy Li Fut fighter knocking out a Muay Thai fighter...


17yr old KO Muay Thai in the first minute

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/D9sY9Bi2gHo/

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/D9sY9Bi2gHo/

Nioce 33secs

the original clip was CLF vs Muay thai....where do you get that the back fist guy was CLF? i don't see it.

[hskwarrior]

Don't take it personally dude, this poster has a very bad attitude. Takes offense at any small thing.

EO

i doubt that he forgot about paying you that visit either! LOL

[Eric Olson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imk8M0I2Mus&feature=player_embedded

Nice work. You gotta be in good shape to last that long in the ring.

From what I watched I saw a lot of the big CLF power shots missing the mark which unfortunately could have been fight enders.

I think is because you can't really use them in isolation. One power shot sets up the next until opponent makes a mistake or is overpowered. In isolation they're too telegraphed and easily avoided or neutralized.

Also, I think this gets back to another conversation we had before about the correct distance for a technique like Sao Chui. As I mentioned before Sao Chui is primarily a forearm strike to the neck, I don't think it translates well to a head strike with gloves on.

Better to shorten up those techniques so that you can use the fist ie into something like a hook punch.

Just my two cents but overall nice job.

EO

[Eric Olson]

i doubt that he forgot about paying you that visit either! LOL

LOL is right....

EO

[hskwarrior]

LOL is right....

we all are....i so can't wait for the video. :D

and when it does happen i got the perfect GANGSTA beat to put on it too

[cerebus]

the original clip was CLF vs Muay thai....where do you get that the back fist guy was CLF? i don't see it.

I guess it wasn't clear from the way it was titled in this link. I've seen the same clip on another forum where it was titled more clearly http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12344

[Violent Designs]

You guys have to remember. This is a Muay Thai rules fight.

In an even of a decision the judges will look for things like technique execution and style.

If it's a dead even fight the guy who throws blatantly classical Thai techniques will win the decision.

I've seen several fights between say Thai vs. MMA guys (in MT rules) and the MMA guys basically fight like apes with no form and then go lose the decision, then complain about it.

Just food for thought you know.

[Frost]

You guys have to remember. This is a Muay Thai rules fight.

In an even of a decision the judges will look for things like technique execution and style.

If it's a dead even fight the guy who throws blatantly classical Thai techniques will win the decision.

I've seen several fights between say Thai vs. MMA guys (in MT rules) and the MMA guys basically fight like apes with no form and then go lose the decision, then complain about it.

Just food for thought you know.

are you argueing that the thai guy didnt win that one fairly?

[Violent Designs]

are you argueing that the thai guy didnt win that one fairly?

Nope.

I'm saying that you have to take these things into consideration if you want to understanding JUDGING CRITERIA in a Muay Thai fight.

[lone_walker]

Don't take it personally dude, this poster has a very bad attitude. Takes offense at any small thing.

EO

noted thanks EO

[Keng Lee]

Muay Thai is very strong legs!

[knockabout]

Hi i'm new to the forum.

I thought the fight was very good from both sides but sometimes it was hard to tell that the Buk Sing fighter was actually Buk Sing. Just saying. But still good fight.

[hskwarrior]

what would it take to visually confirm that he was a buk sing guy as opposed to a hung sing or chan family fighter?

[knockabout]

what would it take to visually confirm that he was a buk sing guy as opposed to a hung sing or chan family fighter?

I guess I should say sometimes it's hard to tell who the Choy Lay Fut fighter is. All I mean is that he seems to fight a lot like many Muay Thai combatents.

[Dr.Rob]

Nah The Tattoos always tell you what the person is into...:D

[hskwarrior]

I guess I should say sometimes it's hard to tell who the Choy Lay Fut fighter is. All I mean is that he seems to fight a lot like many Muay Thai combatents.
Reply With Quote

I understand. still, i'm curious to what things are YOU looking to see in regards to a CLF fighter?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I understand. still, i'm curious to what things are YOU looking to see in regards to a CLF fighter?

Do you know why BJJ, MT , Boxers and wreslters never get these issues?

Because they very rarely demo anything and when they do, it looks 100% like when they fight, or close enough.
But TMA tend to liek to demo things unrealitically, to make their system look uber-cool, but when they fight for real, even though the core of the system is there, it doesn't look like what was demo, case in point: WC and Kenpo.

[hskwarrior]

But TMA tend to liek to demo things unrealitically, to make their system look uber-cool, but when they fight for real, even though the core of the system is there, it doesn't look like what was demo, case in point: WC and Kenpo.

that's why i've always taught what i teach for the streets. and its worked. i plan to get my guys into bigger competitions even fight some muay thai guys.

it's those who do alot of forms and not focus on fighting that they don't see what we see as not workable in the ring or the streets.

[sanjuro_ronin]

that's why i've always i teach what i teach for the streets. and its worked. i plan to get my guys into bigger competitions even fight some muay thai guys.

it's those who do alot of forms and not focus on fighting that they don't see what we see as not workable in the ring or the streets.

True and the practical stuff is rarely pretty or impressive.
Personally one someone wants me to demo something I will usually beat the crap out of them, makes my life easier and keeps my aura of uber-awesomeness intact and growing !

[hskwarrior]

My sifu always said that my lineages gung fu was UGLY compared to like Tat Mau Wong's school when they first came over. its cause we focus on the fighting side over the prettiness of the form.


hahahahah NICE

[Eric Olson]

Do you know why BJJ, MT , Boxers and wreslters never get these issues?

Because they very rarely demo anything and when they do, it looks 100% like when they fight, or close enough.
But TMA tend to liek to demo things unrealitically, to make their system look uber-cool, but when they fight for real, even though the core of the system is there, it doesn't look like what was demo, case in point: WC and Kenpo.

I can't speak for WC or Kenpo but alot of TCMA uses over exaggerated circles to train body mechanics and prevent the fighter from tightening up and using uncoordinated strength.

When you see it applied correctly, it's usually shortened up, faster and with less flair so it looks like kickboxing. That's not a failing of TCMA but rather a failing of knowing the difference between forms and application.

Wushu is the ultimate expression of that. Forms totally divorced from any real application.


EO

[nospam]

Personally (when) someone wants me to demo something I will usually beat the crap out of them, makes my life easier and keeps my aura of uber-awesomeness intact and growing !

Good one.


Let's just say the first thing I do when someone wants to see my gung fu is ask them to throw a punch. I then slide in and grab their throat (chop choi move). It takes them by surprise and makes a point. If the first thing you think of is a pretty form or fancy move..that says it all.

nospam
:cool:

[knockabout]

I understand. still, i'm curious to what things are YOU looking to see in regards to a CLF fighter?

Ah, OK. I think it is more a case of strategy. I can tell he is the Choy Lay Fut fighter whenever he attempts the backfist or advancing gwa charp. But his strategy and stance is very much like the muay thai fighter. He is very front on for the whole fight. I would never expect a Choy Lay Fut fighter to fight like they do forms, that's silly. But from what I know of Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut at least I think he was too front on and did not advance on his opponent enough.

Of course, I'm not saying I would have done better. When you are in the ring you must adapt to how your opponent fights and maybe that's all he did. I would like to see him fight again.

[BDBSK]

Definately, it rarely looks pretty.

Our lineage throws all our CLF right off a boxing stance. Adaptable, easy to learn. My Sifu says our system is simple, not hard to do, just have to train hard and the rest will take care of itself.

[nospam]

Everyone adapts their gung fu to what they believe is correct or at least better suited for themselves. We must all own our gung fu, and to do this we learn the concepts of our respective styles (as taught to us anywho) and the teacher ensures we adhere to these while allowing room for personal expression and assimilation.

We all have our favourite moves. In Bak Sing it just happens to be chop choi..for some reason :D

nospam
:cool:

[lance]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imk8M0I2Mus&feature=player_embedded

I definately would go with the CLF man , since CLF has more arsenal than the Muay Thai guy .

[hskwarrior]

Yo stick to wing chun...

[David Jamieson]

Everyone adapts their gung fu to what they believe is correct or at least better suited for themselves. We must all own our gung fu, and to do this we learn the concepts of our respective styles (as taught to us anywho) and the teacher ensures we adhere to these while allowing room for personal expression and assimilation.

We all have our favourite moves. In Bak Sing it just happens to be chop choi..for some reason :D

nospam
:cool:

If you keep making sense you will be removed. :mad:


:D

[lone_walker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k93Yv5iQD0


from the Perth Buk Sing Gwoon(北勝館)

[hskwarrior]

yup he wins that match

[Syn7]

Do you know why BJJ, MT , Boxers and wreslters never get these issues?

Because they very rarely demo anything and when they do, it looks 100% like when they fight, or close enough.
But TMA tend to liek to demo things unrealitically, to make their system look uber-cool, but when they fight for real, even though the core of the system is there, it doesn't look like what was demo, case in point: WC and Kenpo.

word. unfortunately this gives a serious false sense of security to those who don't pressure test their sh1t.

don't get me wrong, i like forms and they are VERY useful. but they are, by no means whatsoever, a valid form of combat training on their own. they promote many qualities needed to be not only a good fighter, but a healthy one as well. but they are only a part of realistic training.

[Kellen Bassette]

I can't speak for WC or Kenpo but alot of TCMA uses over exaggerated circles to train body mechanics and prevent the fighter from tightening up and using uncoordinated strength.

When you see it applied correctly, it's usually shortened up, faster and with less flair so it looks like kickboxing. That's not a failing of TCMA but rather a failing of knowing the difference between forms and application.

Wushu is the ultimate expression of that. Forms totally divorced from any real application.


EO

That's the theme throughout Kung Fu, everything is exaggerated. Look at Gung Bu. It's a natural fighting stance, just very exaggerated. Not so you will fight like that, but so you will strengthen your legs while your training and get used to rooting for developing striking power...I really think it's an ingenious method of training, as long as you recognizance it as such and don't get too literal.

Everyone seems to get that we keep our guard up when we fight, we don't keep our hands in chamber, but when it comes to the other stuff, they get way too literal.

There's a loose group of friends I train with in an MMA setting. I was teaching someone how to throw an east-west kick, (aerial inside crescent into a spinning outside crescent kick, in the opposite direction,) someone asked "how would that be practical?" So I demonstrated on my partner, throwing a regular inside crescent at his face as a fake, and stepping in to connect with the spinning crescent...pretty simple technique...the jumping and kicking in different directions is much harder. It's for strength, coordination and agility.

If I just practice the basic kick application, it's pretty easy and I only get so much out of it. Practicing it as "east-west" kick, I get so many more benefits for my training. I told him it's like running with weights on. If I can do the harder version of the technique well, how simple will the easy application be? You really feel like you can fly when you take the weights off and start running.

I find guys that train modern MAs get it when it's explained this way, unless they're very dense...

That's what form training and a lot of other methods of TCMA training are...running with weights on.

[Violent Designs]

Lineage of General Lacey, through Sifu Nick Lizos of the Melbourne Buck Sing Gwoon:

Two full-contact fights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OORCA1SGFuo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1AdoitbkiE