hmm

[jesper]

anyone know this persons background and where he teach

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWo_kW-AkSs&feature=related

[Graham H]

That clip should be on the Tai Chi forum because its not chi sau!!!!

GH

[jesper]

That clip should be on the Tai Chi forum because its not chi sau!!!!

GH

really ????
im shocked :D

[Lucas]

that did look more like my introduction to first time push hand than my first introduction to chi sau...but everyone teaches differently...

[Graham H]

really ????
im shocked :D

Ahhh the sarcasm went right over the top of my head that time!!! :D:D:D

GH

[Sihing73]

Hello,

According to the notes for this, the person indicates they studied under Wong Kiew Kit. While it does not resemble Chi Sau as I was taught, perhaps it is something new, possibly following the "scientific method" some have espoused. :D

FWIW Wong Kiew Kit is supposed to be of a Shaolin and Tai Chi line so maybe the poster of that video spelled something wrong or did not understand what was being taught. It does look more like Push Hands training.

[LoneTiger108]

anyone know this persons background and where he teach

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWo_kW-AkSs&feature=related

Interesting as the 'rotation' shown in all the clips is commonly known in Gu Lao (Kulo) as Chisau from what I've heard.

I couldn't say that it isn't Wing Chun, but it's definitely not Ip Man Wing Chun imho.

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWo_kW-AkSs&feature=related

If they stay in 4-6 stance and move in circle with this kind of arms movement, it will be exactly the same as the Chinese weresting 爭手(Zheng Shou) - grip fighting.

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/718/gripfight.jpg

[Hardwork108]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Like some, Wong Kiew Kit claims mastery of several different styles-including Cho Family wing chun.
They don't do Ip Man chi sao- but do the clockwise and anti clock wise "rolling".


joy chaudhuri

Very true. Wong Kiew Kit has stated that his Wing Choon (Wing Chun) is a family style.

[Hardwork108]

I believe that many posters here do not comprehend the scope of Wing Chun (or kung fu, in general).

I hope many of them will take the time and watch more clips from the this master's seminar to perhas get a better idea, so that the next time they come across this, or similar variations of WC, they can have a more informed discussion.

[Wu Wei Wu]

This type of rotation can be a platform for sticking hands. Just not the 'look sau' people come to expect when chi sao is mentioned.

It is likely not a mainstream version (Ip Man) of WC.

suki

[k gledhill]

..reminds me of a clip I saw Lo Man Kam doing recently...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAQzfA1gmxQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g12vY_JBZFo&feature=related

has to be one of the worst Ive laid eyes on !

[Hendrik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWo_kW-AkSs&feature=related

If they stay in 4-6 stance and move in circle with this kind of arms movement, it will be exactly the same as the Chinese weresting 爭手(Zheng Shou) - grip fighting.

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/718/gripfight.jpg


Joy

Yes. Wong is my siheng and he has evolved his art his way.



interesting. Zheng shou.

The way I have learn is there is no fix stance in doing this type of chi sau platform. and techniques can be any range. Including wrest .

This is old chi sau platform where yks, kulo , and cho still preserve.

[YouKnowWho]

techniques can be any range. Including wrest .
Hope this is a TCMA general training discussion and not just any particular style discussion.
This kind of training is commonly used in many TCMA styles such as WC, Taiji, Bagua, and Chinese wrestling.

In this clip,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWo_kW-AkSs&feature=related

I don't see the intention on "wrist grip" and "grip breaking".

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/4116/wristbreaking.jpg

[LoneTiger108]

interesting. Zheng shou...

This is old chi sau platform where yks, kulo , and cho still preserve.

I have to interject here Hendrik, because this is what I truly believe has caused, and still causes, confusion to the Wing Chun brotherhood across the globe.

This is not to be considered a 'chisau' platform at all, as chisau is it's own platform. If anything these exercises, along with chisau, looksau, poonsau, sansau, gorsau etc should be referred to as doon lien (Dulian) or interactive practise. They're methods to practise together with a prtner for very specific reasons, each having strengths and weaknesses, but each being individual.

Am I making any sense here? To anyone? :o

[Hendrik]

I have to interject here Hendrik, because this is what I truly believe has caused, and still causes, confusion to the Wing Chun brotherhood across the globe.

This is not to be considered a 'chisau' platform at all, as chisau is it's own platform.

If anything these exercises, along with chisau, looksau, poonsau, sansau, gorsau etc should be referred to as doon lien (Dulian) or interactive practise. They're methods to practise together with a prtner for very specific reasons, each having strengths and weaknesses, but each being individual.

Am I making any sense here? To anyone? :o


There is no confusion.

We Like it or not. Disregard of how one wants to think and reason for himself.



That is the WCK Chi Sau platform from the Red Boat era. or the Original.

Which exist and common in YKS, GuLao, Cho family....etc , the older lineages of WCK.

[Hendrik]

This kind of training is commonly used in many TCMA styles such as WC, Taiji, Bagua, and Chinese wrestling.



WC doesnt suddently comes out from thin air in the 5000 years martial art evolution of China.



In this clip,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWo_k...eature=related

I don't see the intention on "wrist grip" and "grip breaking".

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/4...stbreaking.jpg


it is a platform and Wong can evolve an express as he intends when he teaches.

[FongSung]

These look like raw beginners just learning to make a circle, ha ha ha, how can you judge them?. Their rotation is extremely exaggerated and open showing they are not even used to the basic movement.

This type of full circle Chi Sau is all over Southern China and is older than the half circle Chi Sau commonly used in HK and else where. It seems most in the west believe that if some method other than that taught by Ip Man is practised then it is not Wing Chun. There are many other Wing Chun sifu's doing the same in vdo's on youtube. I think even Ip Ching and Sam Kwok break into this method and call it huen sau. HK style Chi Sao we call half circle this style is full circle. I am not saying one is better than the other just be aware of other methods.

In my family we have 3 stages / methods to learn when learning Chi Sao (to use a general term) "mor kue" "bik kue" "woi kue".

[stonecrusher69]

Chi sao is chi sao whether one uses the Ip man half circle or the full circle should make no difference. Chi sao is not in the rolling of the hands that is only a formality.

[Hendrik]

Chi sao is chi sao whether one uses the Ip man half circle or the full circle should make no difference. Chi sao is not in the rolling of the hands that is only a formality.

Good point.

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK8oHEB4lU8

In this clip, the reason that your opponent could push you is because you didnot grab on his wrist and control his arm. Why do you want to give your opponent that kind of freedom?

Will it be better if you use the following strategy?

If you control your opponent's arms by grabbing on both of his wrists (put your opponent in defense), when he tries to break your grips, you suddently attack. Trying to assume that your opponent will never grab your wrist is not be realistic in combat.

[FongSung]

Chi sao is chi sao whether one uses the Ip man half circle or the full circle should make no difference. Chi sao is not in the rolling of the hands that is only a formality.

Well said. I agree it's starting point with a bridge in place.

@Youknowwho:
This is very poor and very basic example (too many wrongs to mention if it is indeed Cho Ga WC Chi Sao) but like I said it looks like this this the students first introduction to Chi Sao, all the clips are of low level skill, IMHO.

Master Yao on the other hand is a high hand for sure but with a different flavor.

[Hendrik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK8oHEB4lU8

In this clip, the reason that your opponent could push you is because you didnot grab on his wrist and control his arm. Why do you want to give your opponent that kind of freedom?

Will it be better if you use the following strategy?

If you control your opponent's arms by grabbing on both of his wrists (put your opponent in defense), when he tries to break your grips, you suddently attack. Trying to assume that your opponent will never grab your wrist is not be realistic in combat.



There are many ways one can train in that platform.

one advance way is to compress the 20Ch 6DFV into a contact points, without graping, one can control the opponent via just a contact point. thus it is extremely fast control handling. control at any contact.

The clip above is purposely train for 20Ch 6DFV.

[Hendrik]

Well said. I agree it's starting point with a bridge in place.

@Youknowwho:
This is very poor and very basic example (too many wrongs to mention if it is indeed Cho Ga WC Chi Sao) but like I said it looks like this this the students first introduction to Chi Sao, all the clips are of low level skill, IMHO.


It is certainly Cho Ga WC chi sao in the very begining form. Wong evolve his art but it is still Cho Ga WC based.

Care to share what are wrongs in that clip in your oppinion?

[FongSung]

Hendrik would you say the clips are a good example?

Can you tell me what are the good points that indicate the Cho family flavor (besides the full circling which is found in mainly other styles)?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik would you say the clips are a good example?

Sure.

for beginner why not?
Perhaps I got old and sloppy now. or I get to those everything is ok stage of life.






Can you tell me what are the good points that indicate the Cho family flavor (besides the full circling which is found in mainly other styles)?


I got too old to know .

so,

That is why I ask you above. since you mention


(too many wrongs to mention if it is indeed Cho Ga WC Chi Sao)

So may be I can learn from you. Hahaha




This is how old I am:
http://baike.baidu.com/view/388323.htm

[FongSung]

Ha ha I doubt that for a moment , I am no high hand but as you can see they are rolling is so open, even the Sifu. Like this you can enter and strike them before they can bridge.

OK 3 most basic points of any WC I suppose:

1. No "Gip Bong" (trademark of GM On)
2. No forward pressure
3. Circling way too wide thus forearms not covering the center i.e. elbows going way too high (elated to point 1).

Basically I read their "body language" as come on you can hit me anywhere you like.

[Hendrik]

Ha ha I doubt that for a moment , I am no high hand but as you can see they are rolling is so open, even the Sifu. Like this you can enter and strike them before they can bridge.

OK 3 most basic points of any WC I suppose:

1. No "Gip Bong" (trademark of GM On)
2. No forward pressure
3. Circling way too wide thus forearms not covering the center i.e. elbows going way too high (elated to point 1).

Basically I read their "body language" as come on you can hit me anywhere you like.



Great and thanks for sharing. These days I love to learn the view from different branches of Cho family to update myself.

Could you please explain what is Gip Bong?

[Wu Wei Wu]

Spencer,

Once again... irrespective of whether the clip is evaluated in terms of function, the type of rolling movement shown in the clip IS chi sao. it is another PLATFORM. As Hendrik correctly pointed out, it is a characteristic of mainland WC lines. One another thread you wrote that chi sao is definately NOT your specialty. This is reflective in some of your comments.

If I recall correctly, you met my sifu. This was the chief platform by which he taught connected fighting in his Hei Ban Wing Chun method.

Suki

[Grumblegeezer]

These look like raw beginners just learning to make a circle, ha ha ha, how can you judge them?. Their rotation is extremely exaggerated and open showing they are not even used to the basic movement.

This type of full circle Chi Sau is all over Southern China and is older than the half circle Chi Sau commonly used in HK and else where... There are many other Wing Chun sifu's doing the same in vdo's on youtube. I think even Ip Ching and Sam Kwok break into this method and call it huen sau...

Duh! Thanks for the reference to huen-sau. The movements in the videoclip were so big and wide, I didn't even recognize them as chi sau until you mentioned this! But yes, we do sometimes train with a "full circle", constantly rotating our wrists in a huen sau movement. If you were to do that, and make the movements huge and circular, and completely abandon centerline, I suppose it could look like this. Especially if you drank heavily first.