TCMA Approach

[MightyB]

Bawang's Profound Insight:

For real - Bawang said something that really should be taken to heart if you intend on being a martial artist - I'm paraphrasing, but... "You can't be a Master of TCMA, instead you're a slave to TCMA. In 30 years you'll still be working at KFC".

I like this statement because it sheds a lot of light on how one should choose a martial art.

If you're going to obsess, and if you're intending to be some kind've uber master, then do NOT do TCMA. You're wasting your time because there is nothing to be gained. If that is your intention, do a sport combat art like Jiu Jitsu, Boxing, Kick Boxing, or Judo. Why? Because you can verify proficiency through action and people won't dispute it. But still, unless you're top dawg at something - you'll probably have to make your living doing something else.

TCMA is cerebral, but it has to be part of your life, it can't be your life. No matter how good you think you are, there is no way to prove it and someone will always dispute your claim. And even if you're very good - eventually you have to sell out and become something you don't want to be if you want to make a living... unless you make your living outside of your art.

In my opinion - then there is nothing wrong with LARPing in MA if that's an outlet and not your life. So what if someone thinks standing makes them invincible? I may think it's silly, but that's what they like to do when they're not working. Now if standing for invincibility is their entire life... whoa - drop the delusion ese.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The whole "MA teacher as a fulltime job thing" is a development of the 20th century.
Sure Samurai were taught by professional teachers, but those teachers were also samurai first and teachers second.
In TCMA most teachers were teachers of their MA second and whatever profession they had first, be it body guard, doctor, lawyer, soldier, butcher, bakers, candle stick maker.

When TMA became a commercial enteprise the why's and how's of TMA changed.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Bawang's Profound Insight:

For real - Bawang said something that really should be taken to heart if you intend on being a martial artist - I'm paraphrasing, but... "You can't be a Master of TCMA, instead you're a slave to TCMA. In 30 years you'll still be working at KFC".

I like this statement because it sheds a lot of light on how one should choose a martial art.

If you're going to obsess, and if you're intending to be some kind've uber master, then do NOT do TCMA. You're wasting your time because there is nothing to be gained. If that is your intention, do a sport combat art like Jiu Jitsu, Boxing, Kick Boxing, or Judo. Why? Because you can verify proficiency through action and people won't dispute it. But still, unless you're top dawg at something - you'll probably have to make your living doing something else.

TCMA is cerebral, but it has to be part of your life, it can't be your life. No matter how good you think you are, there is no way to prove it and someone will always dispute your claim. And even if you're very good - eventually you have to sell out and become something you don't want to be if you want to make a living... unless you make your living outside of your art.

In my opinion - then there is nothing wrong with LARPing in MA if that's an outlet and not your life. So what if someone thinks standing makes them invincible? I may think it's silly, but that's what they like to do when they're not working. Now if standing for invincibility is their entire life... whoa - drop the delusion ese.

There is some truths in what your saying, but I disagree and want to point out a few things:

1. Many martial artists put way too much stock in what others think. Pressure test what you know, spar, roll with the best people you can find and improve upon your weaknesses, that is all you need to do. Also, stop worrying about someone disputing you. The ones who usually try to dispute are the tools who suck themselves and try to bring others down to make themselves feel better, most high level players I have trained with do not care about bringing someone down, but learning and bettering themselves. If you do this, the fruits of your labor will be much better.

2. Kung Fu guys compete in San Shou and Shuai Jiao, as well as different kickboxing rulesets (American, Internation, Muay Thai) and some even do MMA!:eek::D Seriously man, the pressure test BS for all Kung Fu is old. Form fairies and LARPers are what they are, good fighters from Kung Fu styles are what they are. This is not just Kung Fu, this is all styles of martial arts.

3. I agree with you that performance arts or those not suited for combat that are more for exercise are good so long as the person practicing these knows this. The idiot who does nothing but forms for 20 years and still thinks he can fight is deluded, sad, and is a nothing and nobody on the grand scale of what Kung Fu is and what it encompasses.

As far as being a slave to TCMA, one can be a slave to anything if you let it turn you into something you are not. Do what makes you happy, train how you wish, and worry about what you want out of Kung Fu. If you do this you will not be a slave to anything, and also you won't be a slave to every douchebag in the world that says your art sucks.:rolleyes: Feed the dragon so that is will prosper and grow!!:)

[Ray Pina]

People know when they're training is worthless. They tend to be very vocal putting other styles down and are always talking about past exploits.

One of the reasons I enjoy MMA so much is that there is very little talking. One of the most light hearted gyms I've ever trained at is Renzo's in NY. The man is always smiles and usually busting chops in a friendly way.... he doesn't need to explain himself. He's done it for real in front of the world. Other black belts are actively fighting. No need to talk. When you put yourself on the line like that, you can loose, you can get beat in front of your coaches, training partners, friends, family, strangers, haters.... you get a certain humility.

Compare that with Kung Fu masters, some internal folks that used to post aggressively here: They are nothing but talk.

Fighters talk about fighting in different ways than non fighters. Just like you can tell real surfers from wannabees. And its usually the dumbest person in the room trying hard to sound smart.

[TenTigers]

There is some truths in what your saying, but I disagree and want to point out a few things:

1. Many martial artists put way too much stock in what others think. Pressure test what you know, spar, roll with the best people you can find and improve upon your weaknesses, that is all you need to do. Also, stop worrying about someone disputing you. The ones who usually try to dispute are the tools who suck themselves and try to bring others down to make themselves feel better, most high level players I have trained with do not care about bringing someone down, but learning and bettering themselves. If you do this, the fruits of your labor will be much better.

2. Kung Fu guys compete in San Shou and Shuai Jiao, as well as different kickboxing rulesets (American, Internation, Muay Thai) and some even do MMA!:eek::D Seriously man, the pressure test BS for all Kung Fu is old. Form fairies and LARPers are what they are, good fighters from Kung Fu styles are what they are. This is not just Kung Fu, this is all styles of martial arts.

3. I agree with you that performance arts or those not suited for combat that are more for exercise are good so long as the person practicing these knows this. The idiot who does nothing but forms for 20 years and still thinks he can fight is deluded, sad, and is a nothing and nobody on the grand scale of what Kung Fu is and what it encompasses.

As far as being a slave to TCMA, one can be a slave to anything if you let it turn you into something you are not. Do what makes you happy, train how you wish, and worry about what you want out of Kung Fu. If you do this you will not be a slave to anything, and also you won't be a slave to every douchebag in the world that says your art sucks.:rolleyes: Feed the dragon so that is will prosper and grow!!:)
QFT
PM me your real name, so when I print this up and include it in our school's workbook, I can give credit where credit is due.

[-N-]

Bawang's Profound Insight:

For real - Bawang said something that really should be taken to heart if you intend on being a martial artist - I'm paraphrasing, but... "You can't be a Master of TCMA, instead you're a slave to TCMA. In 30 years you'll still be working at KFC".

I like this statement because it sheds a lot of light on how one should choose a martial art.

If you're going to obsess, and if you're intending to be some kind've uber master, then do NOT do TCMA. You're wasting your time because there is nothing to be gained. If that is your intention, do a sport combat art like Jiu Jitsu, Boxing, Kick Boxing, or Judo. Why? Because you can verify proficiency through action and people won't dispute it. But still, unless you're top dawg at something - you'll probably have to make your living doing something else.

If you want to master TCMA, you have to become a slave to it. And you will never make any real money at it.

You won't have time for a career. And the general public is not interested in buying your real TCMA.

You'll end up frustrated and disappointed because you can't even give away your TCMA for free.

[taai gihk yahn]

TCMA should be honest with itself first, and should from now on refer to itself as "Combat Yoga";

acknowledging this inherent conflict will put a lot of things to rest;

think about it...

[Eric Olson]

I'll even do you one better.While MA was a really positive force in my life during my early 20s (pulling me away from bad influences) at some point it became a distraction that kept me from advancing in my career and other aspects of my life.

Only when I divorced myself from MA to some degree did I progress in my career and make progress. I never wanted to be a professional MA teacher but there's a progression in modern MA that advances toward that, requiring a larger and larger time investment. In my old school I wasted a lot of time doing things like helping out with Lion Dance.

I like doing martial arts, I like it as part of my life but we don't live in feudal China and I'm not worried about my village being raided. The way that you really "win" in our modern society is not to beat the crap out of people physically but through the improvement of your mind and your economic situation.

I'm not saying people shouldn't practice martial arts. But keep it in perspective...not everyone is going to be a teacher or professional MMA fighter. Most of us are just looking for a way to stay trim and healthy and be able to defend ourselves from some drunk a$$hole at the bar. :p

EO

[YouKnowWho]

TCMA should be honest with itself first, ...
When you tell a

- boxer that boxing is lacking throw, that boxer will agree with you.
- Judoka that Judo is lacking strike, that Judoka will agree with you.

When you tell a TCMA guy that his style doesn't have this and that, he will argue you to death.

Why?

[bawang]

people with problems try to fill a void in their life and bring their problems to kung fu

the movies promise a wise sage, a father figure, the kung fu teachers sell that dream but cant deliver.

[wenshu]

Spar, roll with the best people you can find and improve upon your weaknesses.

That's it right there.

Everybody wants to train what they are already good at. No one wants to face their own weaknesses.

If people put half as much effort into actually becoming competent as they did in the appearance of competence. . .

Improvement in martial arts is nothing more than a progression of getting your ass kicked by people who are better than you. Sometimes you kick your own ass.


People know when they're training is worthless. They tend to be very vocal putting other styles down and are always talking about past exploits.

One of the reasons I enjoy MMA so much is that there is very little talking. One of the most light hearted gyms I've ever trained at is Renzo's in NY. The man is always smiles and usually busting chops in a friendly way.... he doesn't need to explain himself. He's done it for real in front of the world. Other black belts are actively fighting. No need to talk. When you put yourself on the line like that, you can loose, you can get beat in front of your coaches, training partners, friends, family, strangers, haters.... you get a certain humility.

Compare that with Kung Fu masters, some internal folks that used to post aggressively here: They are nothing but talk.

Fighters talk about fighting in different ways than non fighters. Just like you can tell real surfers from wannabees. And its usually the dumbest person in the room trying hard to sound smart.

A worthy though unoriginal notion; like a shirt ironing (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59941&page=30) itself.

[bawang]

you get a certain humility.



like frank shamrock?

[Lebaufist]

When you tell a

- boxer that boxing is lacking throw, that boxer will agree with you.
- Judoka that Judo is lacking strike, that Judoka will agree with you.

When you tell a TCMA guy that his style doesn't have this and that, he will argue you to death.

Why?

Culture. Plain and simple. You tell us. This "one man island" theme seems to be very Chinese. Obviously a blanket statement, I know. I know Ross's teacher wasn't like that, but it seems to be very prevalent in TCMA in general.

[Eric Olson]

If you want to master TCMA, you have to become a slave to it. And you will never make any real money at it.

You won't have time for a career. And the general public is not interested in buying your real TCMA.

You'll end up frustrated and disappointed because you can't even give away your TCMA for free.

Yep, that about sums it up. That's because we're not trying to protect our village from raiding marauders.

EO

[-N-]

people with problems try to fill a void in their life and bring their problems to kung fu

the movies promise a wise sage, a father figure, the kung fu teachers sell that dream but cant deliver.

bawang = Adam Hsu ???!!??

[Darthlawyer]

like frank shamrock?

More like Brock Lesnar.

[Wildwoo]

Maybe less computer, more training:rolleyes:

[taai gihk yahn]

Maybe less computer, more training:rolleyes:

Maybe missing point of internet forum?

[bawang]

hes too busy air bending for internet

[Darthlawyer]

I type with my chi.

[taai gihk yahn]

hes too busy air bending for internet

actually, in a way, his post epitomizes the whole point of this thread - meaning that when TCMA gets put under the microscope, there's always someone who comes on and say "less computer, more training"; in fact, it's really more like "less [fill in the blank], more training" - as if if one has the time to talk about TCMA (here or elsewhere), one is not training enough; it's such rubbish, really;

[bawang]

im from same town as his bak siu lum grandaddy gu ru zhang. i dont even do bak siu lum and i can meet people he dreams of ass kissing. tellin people to train more like hes speshul.

by training he probably means do some gay ass form for 2 hours.

[Ray Pina]

TCMA should be honest with itself first, and should from now on refer to itself as "Combat Yoga";


Its true. But what helps me is looking at "Kung Fu" as a whole set of curriculum. For example, Hsing-I for power, wing-chun for speed or trapping, ect.

But the point is, everyone will take what they will from a system. Some will develop in a way where they want to study other things to fill voids. Others will stick with one.

Bad training is simply bad training. True, there are sifu much more concerned with the position of their shrine than the affectiveness of what they teach, but ultimately I blame the student for staying. You have a brain. Look around the class.

[Syn7]

instead of "build-a-bear" with all the parts, its "build-a-style" with all the diff menu choices...


im all for hybrids, but some would strongly disagree... of course not all hybrids are better, but they can be...

[Hardwork108]

When you tell a

- boxer that boxing is lacking throw, that boxer will agree with you.
- Judoka that Judo is lacking strike, that Judoka will agree with you.

When you tell a TCMA guy that his style doesn't have this and that, he will argue you to death.

Why?
In arguing like this, the TCMA guy will be right and wrong. He will be right in that when looking at TCMAs as whole, one cannot really point and say that they are missing important aspects.

However, the TCMA guy will probably be wrong in that he is not really training his art or arts, the way they were meant to be trained. So yes, the chances are that he will be missing aspects from his style, but usually because his art is not being taught in its whole, just as it happens so often nowadays.

This is the other side of the coin as regards the point made earlier by someone, that one cannot survive financially by soleley teaching TCMAs as they were meant to be taught. I would go further and say that over 95% Kung fu teachers don't even have that knowledge to share, even if they were able to survive financially. There are just too many unqualified "sifus" out there, unfortunately. :o

For example, how many people are training WC in all of its aspects? How many are training Chow Gar, Hsing I, Pak Mei and other profound arts beyond the superficial? Not many, I would say.

So, if you have an profound fighting art being taught in an incomplete and superficial way by most of the instructors, the result will as you correctly implied, a lot of insecure TCMA-ists telling us that they are not missing anything, even when they are. My only point here is that many times it is not the style that is missing certain aspects, but the instruction these people are getting.

Other times of course, one can correctly point out to weaknesses in certain styles.
:)

[Wildwoo]

im from same town as his bak siu lum grandaddy gu ru zhang. i dont even do bak siu lum and i can meet people he dreams of ass kissing. tellin people to train more like hes speshul.

by training he probably means do some gay ass form for 2 hours.

You've mistaken me for someone else:D

[Wildwoo]

Maybe missing point of internet forum?

I am reading here but training more:D Truthfully I am tired of the type casting and brand namings of martial art as we elevate one to put down another. Train the body to be strong, train the technique precise with the timing then call it what you will.

Best wishes to all here.

[bawang]

how about training to not send me passive aggresive private messages

all that fire bending got u guys all ornery

[Ray Pina]

im all for hybrids, but some would strongly disagree... of course not all hybrids are better, but they can be...

I don't look at it as hybridization. I have 12 years of karate, about 5 of hung gar, wing chun and S. Mantis, and then about 6 of internal study..... maybe I have't mastered any. But I certainly have controlled, accurate, powerful striking. With a solid entering/shielding strategy/game plan.

I now have about 5 years of BJJ study. I'm very good at finishing and controlling from side control. I have good sweeps from guard and a good guard pass to get that position. I also like to double legs now. Great tool to have in the tool box. Powerful move.

After 4 years of collage followed by continued self educating and reading I can discuss science, sports, history pretty well but my best subject will always be literature. You usually have one that's your thing.

Honestly, I feel like I take to BJJ very naturally. It comes easy to me. But it has over 20 years of training behind it. STructure. Mechanics. Position < ------- every style works with those. The better ones work with them similarly.

Another thing I like about BJJ is that its organized. I turn 37 in 4 weeks. In a year I think I can compete in the Master's Age group internationally.

[YouKnowWho]

someone thinks standing makes them invincible?

- Running is better than walking.
- Walking is better than standing.
- Standing is better than sitting.
- Sitting is better than laying down.
- Laying down is better than "dead".

When you move a tree, that tree will die. When you move a human body, that person will live longer. When you go to prison, you will have all the time in the world to train your "standing". When you are free and out of jail, you should see the beautiful world and enjoy your life.

[Violent Designs]

Ask yourself why you are doing martial arts.

When I started out it was for self-defense.

Then I became more interested in combat sports and competition.

Now I just want to compete at an amateur level while young.

The rest my life will be toward the preservation and evolution of Buk Sing CLF and hopefully, the entirety of Chinese martial arts.

I'm a very proud person and this is my heritage. I see the state of CMA and it makes me sad and while I won't ever teach professionally, this is literally "a part of my life." It's just as important to me as any other education.

Through fighting you realize that becoming "the best" is such a silly statement. Even if you have every physical gift in the world one day old age will get the best of you. And then the young hungry lions will still murder you.

But this for me is beyond learning combat science. This is about saving whatever face TCMA has left, as much as I can do. It's probably not much but seems that most people don't really care.

No offense but if you are not Chinese then you shouldn't feel any obligation to do anything great for "TCMA." If you do, for example Brenden Tunks is someone I have a lot of respect for, because he is really keeping the spirit of TCMA alive and also evolving it further. He is not Chinese yet he is keeping our face and turning this sordid state around, little by little. For me is beyond what most people care for. For me it's national pride, history, and culture.

[Wildwoo]

how about training to not send me passive aggresive private messages

all that fire bending got u guys all ornery

You are a ray of sunshine buddy.


Bwaaaahhaha!

[bawang]

No offense but if you are not Chinese then you shouldn't feel any obligation to do anything great for "TCMA." If you do, for example Brenden Tunks is someone I have a lot of respect for, because he is really keeping the spirit of TCMA alive and also evolving it further. He is not Chinese yet he is keeping our face and turning this sordid state around, little by little. For me is beyond what most people care for. For me it's national pride, history, and culture.

brendon tunks got no ego and his students are fighters. this guy has more spirit and heart than a lot of chinese people.

No offense but if you are not Chinese then you shouldn't feel any obligation to do anything great for "TCMA."

for a lot of people its not obligation. its a need. people cling to something because they feel empty . if its not kung fu it would be something else

[Lebaufist]

Bawang has spoken.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

No offense but if you are not Chinese then you shouldn't feel any obligation to do anything great for "TCMA." If you do, for example Brenden Tunks is someone I have a lot of respect for, because he is really keeping the spirit of TCMA alive and also evolving it further. He is not Chinese yet he is keeping our face and turning this sordid state around, little by little. For me is beyond what most people care for. For me it's national pride, history, and culture.

Personally it has more to do with my system and my teacher than with defending the honor of TCMA. Hell I don't give a rat's fu**ck about any other Pai Lum lineage to he honest or defending the honor of the Chinese. What I do care about is taking the system my instructor taught me and seeing it evolve and improve, which all arts should strive to do, not just TCMA. Of course if you listen to other, lesser forum members on here they will tell you the Chinese did everything right and nothing wrong, and all systems are perfect.:rolleyes:

But most of us with an inkling of knowledge know that all things that do not evolve or improve stay stagnant and diseased like a puddle of water instead of a flowing stream. Be like flowing water my friend!:p

[David Jamieson]

Bawang has spoken.

...with the voice of authority that any college student has... :rolleyes: lol

no offense bawang, but...lol

TCMA has many approaches.
Some people do it with a real down to earth approach and work at it and yes, for the rest of their lives. It's something to do while you travel around the sun, like anything else.

Some people stick to the qigong aspect only.

Some people stick to the forms and incessant bowing to master with every word spoken.

Some people take from it what they will and work it into the training they do and so on and so forth.

There is no such thing as "one" kung fu. Or one tcma approach or even A tcma approach.

When you start shoving things into pigeon holes, then you can expect to find them there and understand them from that perspective.

the truth about any art form is that you only do it to pass time. In 100 years you will likely be unknown, in 1000 years no one is remembered except for the vaguest reminders and then, only for the greatly noted ones apparently.

so I wouldn't worry about being a master or having others view you as such. If you can always keep your humanity at the front of everything else, you'll be fine and none of your pursuits will suffer from that.

[Violent Designs]

Personally it has more to do with my system and my teacher than with defending the honor of TCMA. Hell I don't give a rat's fu**ck about any other Pai Lum lineage to he honest or defending the honor of the Chinese. What I do care about is taking the system my instructor taught me and seeing it evolve and improve, which all arts should strive to do, not just TCMA. Of course if you listen to other, lesser forum members on here they will tell you the Chinese did everything right and nothing wrong, and all systems are perfect.:rolleyes:

But most of us with an inkling of knowledge know that all things that do not evolve or improve stay stagnant and diseased like a puddle of water instead of a flowing stream. Be like flowing water my friend!:p

I hear ya. In that regard you ARE doing what many Chinese do not have the guts to do (lose face yadda yadda).

Because you DON'T have that ethnic connection.

For those like me who have that it was quite difficult to come to face with reality and finally admit not all was gravy. But what a breathe of fresh air when I finally did!!!

[David Jamieson]

any real fighter has guts and no face to lose.

[KC Elbows]

When you accept that each kung fu style is a body of techniques based around principles, you work to learn those techniques and then understand the principles, and, like other skills, eventually you know the style.

When you accept that it's only principles, and deny that the techniques are the best examples the founders came up with, and thus worth special attention, you never know the style. Either you fill in gaps with other styles, or you face that the techniques are important, or you flounder endlessly in regards to knowing that style. You might be good, but you cannot call yourself expert in that style.

That's my opinion.

[Violent Designs]

Any system of fighting needs to have a working set of principles (theory) and the techniques governed by that theory.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Any system of fighting needs to have a working set of principles (theory) and the techniques governed by that theory.

Very true, and to take it a step further that system needs practioners who are willing to put it on the line either in competition or in full contact sparring to pressure test those theories and techniques to see if what they practice works!

[Violent Designs]

Very true, and to take it a step further that system needs practioners who are willing to put it on the line either in competition or in full contact sparring to pressure test those theories and techniques to see if what they practice works!

This is called trial and error.

Unfortunately most people don't like to take this step.

[YouKnowWho]

system needs practioners who are willing to put it on the line either in competition or in full contact sparring to pressure test those theories and techniques to see if what they practice works!

I have always believed that this is the "only" way to develop your skill. You use 2 men drill to "develop" your move. You then use sparring to "test" your move. It will take about 6 months to develop just a single dependable move by using this method.