Practicing techniques "too deadly for the ring"

[Eric Olson]

Every kung fu style has techniques that could seriously injure your opponent, whether eye gouges, join manipulation, dislocation, dropping someone on their head, ball kicks, neck/throat/eye strikes, knee attacks, etc, etc.

How does your style practice these, with pressure, without actually hurting the other person?

This is a serious question. While I think it's lame excuse to say "we can't spar., we're too deadly", every traditional style has a range of techniques that are meant to maim. They're perhaps useful for self-defense even if they never see the light of day in a competition.

So how do you practice 'em?

EO

[David Jamieson]

I use a pell for full force sword striking and retention training.

The rest is through devices as well. Grip training, finger conditioning and other body part conditioning etc.

The thing is, the venue dictates the rules, so, there isn't any such thing as too deadly for the ring.

Sparring is a good way to train for a venue and to familiarize yourself with the rules.

My sifu used to ask us who wanted to train for tourneys and those who chose to do the fights would have a completely different curriculum in order to train to the venue.

no thumb in the eye, fish hooking, elbow to xiphoid process, etc etc.

just basic high percentage attacks and solid defense conditioning.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No such thing as "too deadly" for the ring, if you want to test a technique you cna always find a venue.
Beyond that, it's a case of relativity.
If you can't hit a guy in the head with a fist jab you won't be able to finger jab his eyes, that's for sure.
If you can kick a guy in the body or head or thigh, knee or groin is no problem.
If you can't hit a guy in the jaw, you won't be able to hit his throat.

Fact is, it is far harder to be effective with limited rules than with no rules so the "too deadly" is a moot point.

[Eric Olson]

No such thing as "too deadly" for the ring, if you want to test a technique you cna always find a venue.
Beyond that, it's a case of relativity.
If you can't hit a guy in the head with a fist jab you won't be able to finger jab his eyes, that's for sure.
If you can kick a guy in the body or head or thigh, knee or groin is no problem.
If you can't hit a guy in the jaw, you won't be able to hit his throat.

Fact is, it is far harder to be effective with limited rules than with no rules so the "too deadly" is a moot point.

So, if I follow, your argument is that these techniques don't need any kind of specific training--that training within the confines of a rule-set that forbids them is all the training that's needed?

EO

P.S.

I use the term "too deadly" sort of tongue in cheek. The reality is they are banned because they COULD cause permanent injury if applied correctly.

[David Jamieson]

So, if I follow, your argument is that these techniques don't need any kind of specific training--that training within the confines of a rule-set that forbids them is all the training that's needed?

EO

P.S.

I use the term "too deadly" sort of tongue in cheek. The reality is they are banned because they COULD cause permanent injury if applied correctly.

uh, I didn't get that out of it.
He was saying basically the same thing i did.

IE: deadly attacks are not in the rule set for fighting in a ring and therefore are not of a concern to someone who wants to train to fight in the ring.

You can still learn how to hit the spine with your elbows etc. The fact that you can't eye poke, fishhook, elbow the spine, etc in most combat venues makes the argument of "too deadly for the the ring" moot.

A straight up cross to the nose can kill you if it's coming in at the right angle with good force. I've seen many a guy try to stick a thumb into someone's throat and outright fail. I've seen guys try to use trapping and fail horribly etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, if I follow, your argument is that these techniques don't need any kind of specific training--that training within the confines of a rule-set that forbids them is all the training that's needed?

EO

P.S.

I use the term "too deadly" sort of tongue in cheek. The reality is they are banned because they COULD cause permanent injury if applied correctly.

Well...how much special training do you need to drive an elbow into someones cricoid?
As much as you need to drive it into someones head.
My point is that if you can do it ( fight) in a limited rules environment then it is easier to do it when you have no rules to worry about.

[Lebaufist]

no such thing as "too deadly" for the ring, if you want to test a technique you cna always find a venue.
Beyond that, it's a case of relativity.
If you can't hit a guy in the head with a fist jab you won't be able to finger jab his eyes, that's for sure.
If you can kick a guy in the body or head or thigh, knee or groin is no problem.
If you can't hit a guy in the jaw, you won't be able to hit his throat.

Fact is, it is far harder to be effective with limited rules than with no rules so the "too deadly" is a moot point.



qft............

[YouKnowWho]

So how do you practice 'em?
In sport, you fight with rules. In combat, you want to finish your opponent ASAP. The training are different. In sport, you may just want to win. In combat, you want to hurt your opponent.

You can train certain moves on throwing dummy or special designed equipments. You will need to develop some special skills to deal with "unfriendly challengers". There is nothing better than to run your fingers across your opponent's eyes first and then beat him up after that (not for sport). The question is how do you train "run your fingers across your opponent's eyes" if no training partner will let you do that? A telephone book will be a good training tool for that. You can see how many pages that your fingers can dig into a phone book to see the progress of your skill development.

[TaichiMantis]

Why make such a big deal about it. It's taking what you already know and using it on different targets on the body. Leverage is leverage, a hit is a hit a kick is a kick....:rolleyes:

[Iron_Eagle_76]

If you are referring to MMA bouts, soft tissue (eyes, ears, throat) small joint manipulation, no kicking a downed opponent are the main ones. I know there are probably others but these are the main ones.

Like Ronin said, if you can't jab someone in the face with your entire fist, what makes you think you can jab them in the eye with a serpent fang or spearhand? Most of these are better suited in the clinch or grappling, but ask yourself this. A good wrestler takes you down and has you mounted or you are in guard, who has control? Do you think you reaching up and clawing like some 6 year old school girl or trying to poke him in the eye is going to get him off? If anything it will p**iss him off more!

Those who are in a position of control are the ones who can probe soft tissue, or manipulate small joints, or reign knees into their head until you turn it into meat pudding. Before you start training to poke eyes, or use small joint manipulation, or whatever else, first learn to control your opponent. Shuai and wrestling practice will allow you to control your opponent, and you have to have control before any of those techniques will work.

[YouKnowWho]

seriously injure your opponent ...
TCMA teachers always said that you will need to have few "black hands" to deal with "unfriendly challengers". If you can hurt one challenger badly (such as make him to sit on his wheel chair for the rest of his life), your bad reputation spread out, nobody will ever want to knock on your door and challenge you again.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60142

[TenTigers]

this is like argueing with my ex. She has an agenda, and no matter what you say, she will say it, whether or not it is actually the original subject..
In other words, no one is really addressing the question here.
The question was not on the effectiveness of the techniques, but for those who do practice these, how are they practiced?
Face it, you can't claw a face, grip a trachea, kick or tear a groin, gauge an eye, etc..legally. So you need to find as many types of approximations as possible.
Vital point strikes, which are pulled on sparring, can be practiced on a BOB. You can put on chest pads-Macho is almost bulletproof, and bang away on each other.
There are hanging man-like dummies that you can practice groin kicks on, but yuo can simply bang at the underside of a heavybag, or have your partner hold the pad facing downward.
Clawing cannot be done to the face, but you can get feedback from your partner by gripping his shoulder.
Various substances can be used for breaking-if done without a set-up, and using sudden explosiveness, you can guage whether or not you actually have the short power to do damage.
You can use clay and make a head, perhaps cover a plastic skull with it, and claw and rip away. (I did this on a whim, when I was in art school, during sculpture class. My teacher thought I was a bit..disturbed..)
But honestly, the only way to see if your technique works, is to do it. Of course, this is not moral, or legal, but it is a fact.

[Eric Olson]

TCMA teachers always said that you will need to have few "black hands" to deal with "unfriendly challengers". If you can hurt one challenger badly (such as make him to sit on his wheel chair for the rest of his life), your bad reputation spread out, nobody will ever want to knock on your door and challenge you again.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60142

Haha...don't worry, that's not my goal. :rolleyes:

EO

[YouKnowWho]

but for those who do practice these, how are they practiced?... But honestly, the only way to see if your technique works, is to do it. Of course, this is not moral, or legal, but it is a fact.

If you can pick your opponent up like this, how will you drop him should be your choice at that moment. Your opponent will have no defense against you when both of his feet are in the air.

Yoo can train the "firemen's carry" with your regular training partner. You can only train your "head smashing" by using your throwing dummy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuBi8YIFrc

[Lebaufist]

Vital point strikes, which are pulled on sparring, can be practiced on a BOB.Yes, I have a body opponent bag. Its actually quite hard. The head and neck are shaped for technique. But without the pesky bones that get in the way.

[Wildwoo]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-upMAmR2vt6M/TWI6mUUuAKI/AAAAAAAAABk/v11BWYkMnPg/s1600/b.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

this is like argueing with my ex. She has an agenda, and no matter what you say, she will say it, whether or not it is actually the original subject..
In other words, no one is really addressing the question here.
The question was not on the effectiveness of the techniques, but for those who do practice these, how are they practiced?
Face it, you can't claw a face, grip a trachea, kick or tear a groin, gauge an eye, etc..legally. So you need to find as many types of approximations as possible.
Vital point strikes, which are pulled on sparring, can be practiced on a BOB. You can put on chest pads-Macho is almost bulletproof, and bang away on each other.
There are hanging man-like dummies that you can practice groin kicks on, but yuo can simply bang at the underside of a heavybag, or have your partner hold the pad facing downward.
Clawing cannot be done to the face, but you can get feedback from your partner by gripping his shoulder.
Various substances can be used for breaking-if done without a set-up, and using sudden explosiveness, you can guage whether or not you actually have the short power to do damage.
You can use clay and make a head, perhaps cover a plastic skull with it, and claw and rip away. (I did this on a whim, when I was in art school, during sculpture class. My teacher thought I was a bit..disturbed..)
But honestly, the only way to see if your technique works, is to do it. Of course, this is not moral, or legal, but it is a fact.

Training and conditioning any technique is easy, bag work, dummy work and so forth.
What you are truly asking is how does one test those skills?
We can grab the iron bag as much as we want and close the captn's of crush as many times as we can but that doesn't equal being able to crush a throat does it?
Well, yeah it kind of does, technically, bu not intent-wise and I guess that is the point.
If I can crush 3" of concrete slab with a knife hand I have the speed and power and conditioning to do it to someone's neck or throat or ribs, BUT CAN I do it?

Goes back to what I said earlier.

If you can fight with your "hands ties behind your back" you can fight with them not tied.

[Eric Olson]

If I can crush 3" of concrete slab with a knife hand I have the speed and power and conditioning to do it to someone's neck or throat or ribs, BUT CAN I do it?

That's what I'm getting at.


EO

[YouKnowWho]

BUT CAN I do it?

How to train bitting?

beginner level - get a raw pig leg and sink your teeth all he way to the bone.

intemediate level - try to bite a live snake's head off, or a life dog's leg off.

advantage stage - go to the zoo and try your skill against a life lion or tiger.

[Eric Olson]

How to train bitting?

beginner level - get a raw pig leg and sink your teeth all he way to the bone.

intemediate level - try to bite a live snake's head off, or a life dog's leg off.

advantage stage - go to the zoo and try your skill against a life lion or tiger.

Hahahaha....:D:D:D:D

[David Jamieson]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-upMAmR2vt6M/TWI6mUUuAKI/AAAAAAAAABk/v11BWYkMnPg/s1600/b.jpg

hahahaha, this would make for some good advertising. :D

[Lucas]

teh deadly.

i do believe it is important for realistic martial artists to think about this.

break down, how i see it. technique, application, effect, usage.

if i go backwards. you learn to use the technique under resistant pressure by applying standard similar techniques in a free fighting format. you can test the effects of your techniques through various means using training equipment, controlled application or even, depending on how serious you are, you can apply some techniques to dead animal flesh. as for application and technique, teaching these follows the same guidelines you use to teach anything in MA.

its the usage and effect people wonder most about. once you get to the point where you feel you are confident in applying your most common fighting techniques in a free fight, then all that is left is do you know your techniques will have the desired effect once you apply them?

for this its pretty much all just conditioning. if you cannot put your fingers into a steak, why bother even thinking about a living throat...if you cannot rend and tear a feathered turkey....then why bother with a face? personally i would rather use tools to maim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

None of this was usually an issue in the "old says" since by the time you learned the "too deadlY' were had already developed the skills ( via fighting) you need to apply the "too deadly" so you didn't have to worry about whether you could.

[Lucas]

condemned criminals should still be used for martial arts studies. :D

[Lucas]

None of this was usually an issue in the "old says" since by the time you learned the "too deadlY' were had already developed the skills ( via fighting) you need to apply the "too deadly" so you didn't have to worry about whether you could.

totally, and honestly it shouldnt be an issue even today...

[goju]

i just modify alot of the "too deadly attacks" to land on legal spots

i figure if i want to fight "dirty" ill just be able to do it if i need to and from my small street fighting experience i didnt have a hard time alternating from legal to dirty

for example in the Saifa bunkai there is a move where you grab the hair and pull them into an upper cut.Obviously in most fight settings you cant pull the hair so i just grab the back of the head or neck and i got legal dirty boxing in mma

[YouKnowWho]

dirty boxing
There is "dirty throwing" as well. In the following move (at 0.03), if you just sit down on your opponent's right knee instead of step your left leg forward, you can send him to emergency room for knee operation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARDeMEP_V1k

[MightyB]

I usually just go to the shooting range. In theory- paintball and airsoft should also make good substitutes for training the too deadly techniques.

[lkfmdc]

Youknowwho already knows the answer to this first question...

IE, how many "no rules" fights do you think Chang Dung Sheng had? The guy was a military officer and sort of state police as well. He had plenty. Yet he still seemed to think that basic and straight forward worked. He was not an advocate of chi blasts, dim mak, etc

In Brazil for quite a long time they really were "no rules" / vale tudo... there is plenty of kung fu in Brazil, but no one stepped into the ring to dim mak any of those guys

Some people will stick their fingers in their ears and go "na na" over and over again, doesn't change the basic truth

[Lucas]

i dim mak everything

[Eric Olson]

In Brazil for quite a long time they really were "no rules" / vale tudo... there is plenty of kung fu in Brazil, but no one stepped into the ring to dim mak any of those guys

Sounds like when it started it was a fairly localized phenomena:

"From 1960 onwards, vale tudo would remain an underground sub-culture, with most of the fights taking place in martial arts dojos or small gymnasiums.[citation needed] The vale tudo sub-culture was mainly based in Rio de Janeiro, but many fights also took place in the northern region, as well as the southern region and the Bahia state, where Capoeira is prevalent. The scene in Rio de Janeiro focused mainly on the intense rivalry between Brazilian jiu-jitsu and Luta Livre, whereas fights in the other regions featured more diverse martial arts competing in the events.[citation needed]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_tudo

[Eric Olson]

Just so we know what we're talking about, here are MMA rules:

The following are fouls, as set out by the Nevada State Athletic Commission:[4]

* Butting with the head
* Eye gouging of any kind
* Biting
* Hair pulling
* Fish hooking
* Groin attacks of any kind
* Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent. (see Gouging)
* Small joint manipulation
* Striking to the spine or the back of the head (see Rabbit punch)
* Striking downward using the point of the elbow (see Elbow strike)
* Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea
* Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh
* Grabbing the clavicle
* Kicking the head of a grounded opponent
* Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent
* Stomping a grounded opponent
* Kicking to the kidney with the heel
* Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck. (see Piledriver)
* Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area
* Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent

[wenshu]

Sounds like when it started it was a fairly localized phenomena:

"From 1960 onwards, vale tudo would remain an underground sub-culture, with most of the fights taking place in martial arts dojos or small gymnasiums.[citation needed] The vale tudo sub-culture was mainly based in Rio de Janeiro, but many fights also took place in the northern region, as well as the southern region and the Bahia state, where Capoeira is prevalent. The scene in Rio de Janeiro focused mainly on the intense rivalry between Brazilian jiu-jitsu and Luta Livre, whereas fights in the other regions featured more diverse martial arts competing in the events.[citation needed]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_tudo

Not only are you sourcing from Wikipedia, even wiki thinks it needs more sources.[citation needed]

[Eric Olson]

Not only are you sourcing from Wikipedia, even wiki thinks it needs more sources.[citation needed]

Ooh, you got me. Here all this time I though Wikipedia was authoritative. :rolleyes:

Look, wikipedia isn't the best source, but it's a good place to start.

EO

[TenTigers]

How to train bitting?

beginner level - get a raw pig leg and sink your teeth all he way to the bone.

ok, that is a health risk. Undercooked pork can give you trichinosis (sp?)

intemediate level - try to bite a live snake's head off, or a life dog's leg off.

advantage stage - go to the zoo and try your skill against a life lion or tiger.

Mas Oyama killed bulls, or yaks, or some freakin cow-thing.
William "Thunderbolt" Chow killed a horse with a single punch.
So did Ku Yu Cheong.
I will do that.
I will probably start out with something more manageable, like a bunny,
then work my way up to a cat, or toy dogs like a poodle or a bichon frise.

[David Jamieson]

i dim mak everything

and that's why your balls are withered and now you need the special jow AND the old man who applies it for you.

bwahahahaha.

you have to learn the ways of the soft man.

:D

[Lucas]

i think you should be able to kick downed opponent. why not?

[Lucas]

and that's why your balls are withered and now you need the special jow AND the old man who applies it for you.

bwahahahaha.

you have to learn the ways of the soft man.

:D

too bad i dim mak that old man for trying to touch my balls :eek:

[TenTigers]

Just so we know what we're talking about, here are MMA rules:

The following are fouls, as set out by the Nevada State Athletic Commission:[4]

* Butting with the head
* Eye gouging of any kind
* Biting
* Hair pulling
* Fish hooking
* Groin attacks of any kind
* Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent. (see Gouging)
* Small joint manipulation
* Striking to the spine or the back of the head (see Rabbit punch)
* Striking downward using the point of the elbow (see Elbow strike)
* Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea
* Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh
* Grabbing the clavicle
* Kicking the head of a grounded opponent
* Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent
* Stomping a grounded opponent
* Kicking to the kidney with the heel
* Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck. (see Piledriver)
* Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area
* Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent
I thought fish hooking was when she gags and it comes out her nose...
yeah, that should definately be illgal in MMA.

[Eric Olson]

I thought fish hooking was when she gags and it comes out her nose...
yeah, that should definately be illgal in MMA.

Gene, can we have NSFW jokes and pictures only section for the forum? I'm guessing huge traffic on that one. ;)

EO

[SoCo KungFu]

I thought fish hooking was when she gags and it comes out her nose...
yeah, that should definately be illgal in MMA.

No that's the angry dragon

[Frost]

Just so we know what we're talking about, here are MMA rules:

The following are fouls, as set out by the Nevada State Athletic Commission:[4]

* Butting with the head
* Eye gouging of any kind
* Biting
* Hair pulling
* Fish hooking
* Groin attacks of any kind
* Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent. (see Gouging)
* Small joint manipulation
* Striking to the spine or the back of the head (see Rabbit punch)
* Striking downward using the point of the elbow (see Elbow strike)
* Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea
* Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh
* Grabbing the clavicle
* Kicking the head of a grounded opponent
* Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent
* Stomping a grounded opponent
* Kicking to the kidney with the heel
* Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck. (see Piledriver)
* Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area
* Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent

early ufc and japanese open rules: no throat shots, no fish hooking, everything else was legal...where were al the deadly guys cleaning up there?

at the risk of sounding like matt thornton its all about the delivery system, so one guys approach is to practise safe versions of the shots in live sparring against a moving target and if you want to then simulate the deadly every now and then, put eye protectors on and allow eye shots, clinch and allow headbutts or throat shots etc another guy practises against a BOB eye poking etc, hitting concrete with his knife hand etc

Which of those when the cr*p hits the fan do you think will be able to use the deadly on a moving target when the prssures on......

[Syn7]

In sport, you fight with rules. In combat, you want to finish your opponent ASAP. The training are different. In sport, you may just want to win. In combat, you want to hurt your opponent.

You can train certain moves on throwing dummy or special designed equipments. You will need to develop some special skills to deal with "unfriendly challengers". There is nothing better than to run your fingers across your opponent's eyes first and then beat him up after that (not for sport). The question is how do you train "run your fingers across your opponent's eyes" if no training partner will let you do that? A telephone book will be a good training tool for that. You can see how many pages that your fingers can dig into a phone book to see the progress of your skill development.

and how often to you see an mma, boxing, bjj, wrestling, jodu, whatever match where the guy doesnt want to finish you quickly??? even in most of those c0ck style point matches, a good kick to the face is money...

[Frost]

and how often to you see an mma, boxing, bjj, wrestling, jodu, whatever match where the guy doesnt want to finish you quickly??? even in most of those c0ck style point matches, a good kick to the face is money...

Good point everyone wants to finish their opponent quickly and hurt them some people think spors guys don’t want to do this, its just not that easy to do against a determined opponent, I have seen people finish fights with broken hands, busted ribs,hell jacare finished a grappling match with a busted arm, I have seen people spiked on their heads (I’ve had it done to me) and still fight on, heck a friend of mine dislocated his knee in his second MMA fight and STILL won, sometimes adrenaline can make the deadly NOT that dangerous which can be a shock to guys who rely on it………….

As for the fingers across the eyes helping to finish a fight….well in 95 that Japanese fighter had his eye gauged out in the HNB event, didn’t stop him winning the fight did it, some times it works sometimes it doesn’t, best not to reply on it but on sound basics that always work

one of my MMA coaches is also one of the few people certified to teach Geoff Thompson’s fence system, every now and then he throws in the deadly, Thai plum (sorry violent, double neck tie) to fingers in the eyes and ramming the opponents head into a wall, striking a turtled opponent and if his heel on his back leg is raised stamp on it to beak his foot….etc but his view is if you cant get the guy in the position in the first place (ie dominate with your delivery system) you cant do this stuff

Now my question is why bother with this stuff and just how important is it to you? Seriously when was the last time anyone had to blind someone in self-defence, hit them in the throat or try to kill them?

When was the last time you actually were in a real fight, not a drunk brawl but a real dangerous fight? If the answer is last week I can understand you putting a big emphasis on this stuff (although I would be looking for weapon work first lol) but if the answer is 6 months ago? 2 years ago, 5, why then?

Me its been years (over a decade) so I train for fun and fitness, I cant see the point of spending hours a week on deadly stuff I will never use, I still condition my PE fist, I still practise short range power because I enjoy it, but realistically I wont be using it to kill anyone anytime soon, and if I find myself in a bad situation ill be looking for a weapon before I try to hit there eyes, not withstanding with the laws the way there are in the UK if I did any of that stuff on an opponent I would probably be banged up

[RenDaHai]

There are a lot of good points here,

There are off course variations on many moves which make them far more effective, but too damaging to practice.

So in a fight is it better to use an untested 'super' move, or a well tested normal move? As in should you go for the really nasty move which you have never really done before or the standard smack to the face you've done alot?


Some times we are so conditioned to fighting within the rules that even if you take them away we still fight this way. Some illegal moves are very powerful and should not be overlooked. Like kicking someone in the nuts will trump the standard turning kick to the thigh. Grabbing someone's hair gives you more control over them than pretty much grabbing anywhere else (and is easier to grab). The head butt is one of the greatest moves of all time....

So my question is Not just how do we train these moves but How do we program ourselves to 'think' of doing these moves in combat when we are so used to not using them in sparring?

[RenDaHai]

Now my question is why bother with this stuff and just how important is it to you? Seriously when was the last time anyone had to blind someone in self-defence, hit them in the throat or try to kill them?


THis is a really good point. But to illustrate with an example; Last year some guy was whaling on his teenage daughter on the street, had her on the floor and was kicking her hard to get up. So i grabbed his hair, twisted and pulled up. This completely imobilised him. If It hadn't occurred to me to do this i would have done a less effective move and he would have fought back and we would have been in a brawl.

Sometimes a swift kick to the nuts or light flick to the eye will be overall less damaging than a prolonged brawl. A cupped hand clap to the ear, a open hand smack to the back of the head. All illegal but all less damaging than a punch up.

[Frost]

THis is a really good point. But to illustrate with an example; Last year some guy was whaling on his teenage daughter on the street, had her on the floor and was kicking her hard to get up. So i grabbed his hair, twisted and pulled up. This completely imobilised him. If It hadn't occurred to me to do this i would have done a less effective move and he would have fought back and we would have been in a brawl.

Sometimes a swift kick to the nuts or light flick to the eye will be overall less damaging than a prolonged brawl. A cupped hand clap to the ear, a open hand smack to the back of the head. All illegal but all less damaging than a punch up.

so in over a year the biggest fight you have had was seperating a fighting family, not putting dfown what you did it was comendable but its hardly a real life and death fight?

and how often did you practise the pulling the hair trick, and to be honest in my expereince a if a light flick or a shot to the balls ends the fight its usually as damaging as a punch up, otherwise people tend to fight through it

[Ray Pina]

i think you should be able to kick downed opponent. why not?

Agreed. And I'd like to strike those f@gs that turn turtle and crawl up into a ball.... but I've done it to to escape someone's serious side control.

Its nice to kick someone's head like a soccer ball and see their jaw fly across the ring. Not so nice when its you.

[A BIONIC LEG]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-upMAmR2vt6M/TWI6mUUuAKI/AAAAAAAAABk/v11BWYkMnPg/s1600/b.jpg

ROTFLMAO that is so jacked up.

[Eric Olson]

Some times we are so conditioned to fighting within the rules that even if you take them away we still fight this way. Some illegal moves are very powerful and should not be overlooked. Like kicking someone in the nuts will trump the standard turning kick to the thigh. Grabbing someone's hair gives you more control over them than pretty much grabbing anywhere else (and is easier to grab). The head butt is one of the greatest moves of all time....

So my question is Not just how do we train these moves but How do we program ourselves to 'think' of doing these moves in combat when we are so used to not using them in sparring?

As humans we have some psychological blocks to seriously hurting other people. If those blocks were gone we'd be doing things like this chimpanzee did to this Connecticut woman:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,494067,00.html

These psychological blocks are actually a big "problem" for the military, so they often resort to dehumanizing the enemy.

EO

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have fought no rules ( street), limited rules (Vale tudo where the only rule was respect the tap), and lots of rules and guess what?
The outcome and techniques that are effective are the same regardless of the venue:
Solid core basic techniques, conditioning, strength, speed, controlled agression and better fighting ability win every time.
They rest is just not applicable.
Do I k now a bunch of scary ass advanced **** that is too deadly?
Yeah, never needed it though.
How do I know it works and I can make it work?
Simple:
Common sense ( certain too deadly are just that because it is obvious)
I have fought, I know what it takes to make something work.

Again, I state this for the benefit of all:
If you can make the solid, core, basic stuff work, then you have the skills to make the "too deadly" work, if you can't make the basics work then all the "too deadly" in the universe won't do ****.

[sanjuro_ronin]

These psychological blocks are actually a big "problem" for the military, so they often resort to dehumanizing the enemy.

Having been in the military I can tell you that when I hear people talking about doing the "too deadly" that I roll my eyes because I have seen, first hand, those very "same" people not being able to do just that.
Sure we are all capable of, in the heat of battle, killing a person, but to do it, cold, calculating and "technical", nope, that isn't for everyone ( nor should it be and that is a good thing).

[RenDaHai]

so in over a year the biggest fight you have had was seperating a fighting family, not putting dfown what you did it was comendable but its hardly a real life and death fight?

and how often did you practise the pulling the hair trick, and to be honest in my expereince a if a light flick or a shot to the balls ends the fight its usually as damaging as a punch up, otherwise people tend to fight through it

Hahah, not the biggest and not a 'fight' as such, but a useful example. Even such a minor dispute can be very dangerous with the wrong decisions. Besides thought you hadn't had one for 10 years?

I never practiced the pulling the hair trick, thats the point. But if I had never considered the possibility that you could pull his hair I might have gone in punching...

[Ray Pina]

Systems with solid training fundamentals get it. In grappling, if I can control north south position and keep you pinned, tire you out, I can grab an arm for a kimora. I can just as easily apply a baseball bat choke or a more dangerous neck crank.... the key is the ability to control the position.

If I can deflect your strikes, open you up and hit a target at will... that target can be the chin, throat or eyes. If I can control you in that same north south grappling position, sticking my fingers into your eyes is easy. The least complicated of options.

[RenDaHai]

As humans we have some psychological blocks to seriously hurting other people. If those blocks were gone we'd be doing things like this chimpanzee did to this Connecticut woman:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,494067,00.html

These psychological blocks are actually a big "problem" for the military, so they often resort to dehumanizing the enemy.

EO

Exactly, in my opinion this is key to all combat. An uninhibited mind is far more dangerous than martial arts.

But that is something I don't want to train, because I'm not sure if it can be turned on and off.


It reminds me of a story an old Chinese man once told me. He said when the Japanese occupied China he was just 8 years old. He killed a Japanese soldier by dropping a rock on his head from a building. Disregarding the method this is an 8 year old child killing an experienced soldier. All because he had the intent to do so.

[RenDaHai]

If you can make the solid, core, basic stuff work, then you have the skills to make the "too deadly" work, if you can't make the basics work then all the "too deadly" in the universe won't do ****.

Worth quoting so it gets read again because it makes sense.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Systems with solid training fundamentals get it. In grappling, if I can control north south position and keep you pinned, tire you out, I can grab an arm for a kimora. I can just as easily apply a baseball bat choke or a more dangerous neck crank.... the key is the ability to control the position.

If I can deflect your strikes, open you up and hit a target at will... that target can be the chin, throat or eyes. If I can control you in that same north south grappling position, sticking my fingers into your eyes is easy. The least complicated of options.

This was the point I was trying to make earlier. If I have someone in full mount, side mount, or have their back it is a lot easier to probe the eyes and soft tissue than to do so while striking in a stand up situation. Control is the key, if you can control your opponent and make him helpless, which is pretty much the univeral theory in all grappling arts, you can do whatever the hell technique afterwards you want!

[lkfmdc]

It reminds me of a story an old Chinese man once told me. He said when the Japanese occupied China he was just 8 years old. He killed a Japanese soldier by dropping a rock on his head from a building. Disregarding the method this is an 8 year old child killing an experienced soldier. All because he had the intent to do so.

Hate to be a kill joy, but like almost all stories told about war, fights, fighting (and women) this is likely a fabrication.....

[sanjuro_ronin]

This was the point I was trying to make earlier. If I have someone in full mount, side mount, or have their back it is a lot easier to probe the eyes and soft tissue than to do so while striking in a stand up situation. Control is the key, if you can control your opponent and make him helpless, which is pretty much the univeral theory in all grappling arts, you can do whatever the hell technique afterwards you want!

The true "too deadlies" are coup-de-grace, not eye pokes or silly things like that, they are true finishers and yes, they imply that the opponent is pretty much done and is now going to be finished.
Hitting a guy in the throat can take him out or not, we have seen ample evidence of both in competitions even, but the "too deadly" throat shot is done as a finisher when the opponent has no chance of defense.
It serves no purpose in sport, obviously, and requires very little direct training because of the conditions it is apllied under.

[omarthefish]

The true "too deadlies" are coup-de-grace, not eye pokes or silly things like that, they are true finishers and yes, they imply that the opponent is pretty much done and is now going to be finished.
Hitting a guy in the throat can take him out or not, we have seen ample evidence of both in competitions even, but the "too deadly" throat shot is done as a finisher when the opponent has no chance of defense.
It serves no purpose in sport, obviously, and requires very little direct training because of the conditions it is apllied under.

Unless you've got him stunned how are you going to have time to tap forward, forward, back, forward, down-forward, forward and hit the fierce punch and kick at the same time?

Even if you pull of the combination, there's so much delay before it launches you really need to stun the guy first.

[RenDaHai]

(On chinese boy killing Japanese soldier)


Hate to be a kill joy, but like almost all stories told about war, fights, fighting (and women) this is likely a fabrication.....

Quite possibly, but the point stands. The inhibitions and intents of the human mind could be the greatest factor in combat.

I believed him, but even if its not true I'm sure something similar has happened somewhere before....

[Lucas]

I also want to point out, standard basics can be the deadly too. I had my rib(s) busted on two separate times both from being owned with standard strikes. Hurts like a ***** makes it hard to breath but under certain conditions you can't stop till u lose, win, or the time is up. Anyone I repeat anyone who wants to fight will push through the pain if they can to continue. But also its always important to consider every eventuality. I put my thumb in an eye before to get someonoff of me that weighed twice as much as me. Didn't gouge but made him fear and gave me a chance to escape because he pulled back and I was fast enough to escape.

[TenTigers]

I think everyone can agree that it has been clearly stated ad nauseum, that you need the delivery system, skills, strength, experience, to land any strikes.
We get it.
Nobody's argueing that point.
Let it go.
We've also heard all the points about whether or not "deadly" strikes are effective.
We get this too.
Nobody is disputing this.
HOWEVER.....
When you keep sidetracking the topic, it makes it very hard to wade through all the posts. Put it in another thread-even though it's been done to death, and allow those who are actually concerned with the original topic to continue a discussion.
There should be an editing rule performed by the mods to filter out the crap.
well, except for humor, and Sanjuro and Master Killer's pics.
I mean, let's be reasonable!

[Lucas]

oh sry if i sidetrack guys...i thot i was on the topic. my bad.

[YouKnowWho]

when the Japanese occupied China he was just 8 years old. He killed a Japanese soldier by dropping a rock on his head from a building.

My 2nd Lou Han teacher (brother in law) from Baoding, Hopei killed a Japanese soldier in battle field during the war. He pulled out that Japanese soldier's heart and ate it while it was still fresh. The veins of that heart broke his front tooth, all his life, he did not replace that tooth.

[lkfmdc]

My 2nd Lou Han teacher (brother in law) from Baoding, Hopei killed a Japanese soldier in battle field during the war. He pulled out that Japanese soldier's heart and ate it while it was still fresh. The veins of that heart broke his front tooth, all his life, he did not replace that tooth.

Really? He had a rib spreader all ready so he could get at that heart? :rolleyes:

Like I said, "war stories" frequently are not true

[Lucas]

My 2nd Lou Han teacher (brother in law) from Baoding, Hopei killed a Japanese soldier in battle field during the war. He pulled out that Japanese soldier's heart and ate it while it was still fresh. The veins of that heart broke his front tooth, all his life, he did not replace that tooth.

whoa are you serious? lol thats some tough heart meat :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

oh sry if i sidetrack guys...i thot i was on the topic. my bad.

Actually the topic is HOW you practice the techniques that are "too dangerous" to practice.
My simple answer is that you don't have too since these 'too deadly" naturally feed off the basics that you do practice regularly.
All you need to do is understand how they are done and when to apply them.
You core training will take care of the rest.

[Lucas]

blah this topic is dead then. i think everyone already said how we all do that lol.

/end

[lkfmdc]

whoa are you serious?



no, he isn't, but he doesn't realize yet he isn't being serious

[sanjuro_ronin]

My 2nd Lou Han teacher (brother in law) from Baoding, Hopei killed a Japanese soldier in battle field during the war. He pulled out that Japanese soldier's heart and ate it while it was still fresh. The veins of that heart broke his front tooth, all his life, he did not replace that tooth.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_CpCN41CZP9M/RxxaTbviWeI/AAAAAAAAAPY/GodJpfAN2r8/s1600/Dumb%2Band%2BDumber%2Bheart.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi225VNmQU4

[YouKnowWho]

you need the delivery system,
When your opponent's skill is about the same as yours, knowing a few tricks can give you an "upper hand". For example, in Judo tournament, if your opponent has sleeve and lapel hold on you, you can drop your elbow, rotate your arm, and wrap your opponent's grip over and over until his hand can't pull out from your wrapping. That move is not deadly, but it can distract your opponent and temporary take his offense away and give you a chance to attack. That's what you are looking for.

Do you train that move in "sport Judo"? May be not. Does that move have value? It may be the only move that can be used to against a pair of "monster grips".

[lkfmdc]

For those into biting and eye gouging, you really should check out Renzo Gracie's first video series with actual footage of actual no rules fights. There is indeed some biting and gouging, done by the Jiu Jitsu guy on top in control position. IE if your basic skills are not up to standard none of your other stuff is going to make a difference

[Lucas]

1+1 = 2

:)

[bawang]

My 2nd Lou Han teacher (brother in law) from Baoding, Hopei killed a Japanese soldier in battle field during the war. He pulled out that Japanese soldier's heart and ate it while it was still fresh. The veins of that heart broke his front tooth, all his life, he did not replace that tooth.

my third mah jong low horn beep beep sigong kept a knapsack full of the testicles of enemies taken while they were still alive during the cola wars
he said they taste like skittles

[Lucas]

i only believe that if its green skittles.

[bawang]

my sigong was nicknamed "the tickler". during the great war he would tickle his enemies before disembowling them and offering their five organs to heaven, each representing the five elements.

[Frost]

I think everyone can agree that it has been clearly stated ad nauseum, that you need the delivery system, skills, strength, experience, to land any strikes.
We get it.
Nobody's argueing that point.
Let it go.
We've also heard all the points about whether or not "deadly" strikes are effective.
We get this too.
Nobody is disputing this.
HOWEVER.....
When you keep sidetracking the topic, it makes it very hard to wade through all the posts. Put it in another thread-even though it's been done to death, and allow those who are actually concerned with the original topic to continue a discussion.
There should be an editing rule performed by the mods to filter out the crap.
well, except for humor, and Sanjuro and Master Killer's pics.
I mean, let's be reasonable!

it may have been stated ad nauseum but i get the feeling some people still dont get it

[Lucas]

..........

[wenshu]

If you aren't already an irretrievable sociopath what is the point of training specifically to rip out someone's trachea?

[lkfmdc]

If you aren't already an irretrievable sociopath what is the point of training specifically to rip out someone's trachea?

It certainly takes a sick mind to be able to do some of the things so called TMA people advocate, and without that sick mind, you simply won't do it...

It also helps to not advocate things that are pysically impossible to do, like so many TMA who have never actually done them but teach them do

[Lee Chiang Po]

I think most of these silly discussions are all about MMA and not about any form of gung fu. When someone discusses anything here it is always with ring fighting in mind. What about if you are not in the ring fighting someone that is training daily for that single purpose? I have had an unusual number of fights in my lifetime, and in almost all of them the other fellow was not trained in any serious form of combat. The only way for that to happen would be for me to go to where ring fights are held and join in. There are indeed people trained gung fu that could be a serious danger to even the best ring fighters we have today. You can injure someone easily if you are not real careful in training. It would be absolutely irresponsible to strike someone in training in such a way that could cause injury. The entire idea of a martial art is to develop technique and skills that can offer you some advantage or at least overcome a disadvantage.
And it does not require a person to be a sick sociopath in order to kill or maim someone in a fight, especially when the options might mean you could be the victim instead. No one has to kill or maim anyone just for the hell of it. One can always limit the extent of his aggression. On average, most people have no idea how to go about inflicting deadly injury to someone, and simply do not know how to defend against it or even that it is a possiblilty. This makes it fairly easy to apply such methods. People that train gung fu are not really concerned with ring fighting, and being compared to MMA is really silly to begin with.

[YouKnowWho]

with ring fighting in mind.
In Gung Fu, there is a move that you use your palm to strike at your opponent's groin.

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/5083/grionstrike.jpg

The only problem is everytime that you use this move in sparring, your opponent can always hit on your head. Oneday, a boy asked his teacher about his concern. His teacher used the same move, grabbed a handful of dirt from the ground, and threw at the boy's face. After that day, that boy had much broad view about "combat".

This move may not be "deadly" but it gives you an "upper hand" in "combat". You will never think about this kind of moves if "sport" is your only concern.

[wenshu]

It is not so much a question of the utility or possibility of finger fuking someone in their orbital socket.

In America in the 21st century, 99.999% of the time when someone is talking about teh d3adly it is an excuse for general ineffectiveness and ineptitude. This is generally due to those in question not training any where near an intensity that will produce any sort of demonstrable capabilities.

Some of us have a conditioned reflex to this type of argument for a confluence of reasons.

Oftentimes people mistake this for arguments about the effectiveness of one particular style over another. It also implicitly disregards the fact that Chinese martial arts evolved from a therapeutic and religious background concurrently with the strictly militaristic.

Unfortunately, Chinese martial arts are relatively inaccessible to the general public. Furthermore, due to its connection to so called eastern mysticism, Chinese martial arts attract a certain type of new age believer, easily duped and desperate for soteriological metaphysics. This leads to a proliferation of targets of opportunity for charlatans and internet "I took wing chun for two weeks and have created my own art" shifus. This is not even to mention all the mythological bs inherent in Chinese culture we have to parse without the help of white bread man-children who decided to diversify their Star Trek slash fiction with some kung fu posturing.

We also sometimes forget that Chinese martial artists can be just as narcissistic and short sighted *cough* Internalists* cough* as the WWE, err, I mean UFC ballclappers.

Esoteric dangerous techniques certainly exist.

In my particular case, I don't really see any need to specialize in them. I am confident enough in my ability to run like hell.

Sometimes I just practice curling up in a ball and crying. Yeah. . .practice. . .

[Lucas]

.

In my particular case, I don't really see any need to specialize in them.

I think that is the case for most people.

in my limited personal experience, you need absolutely no training for many 'deadly' techs. just the intent to do so. other than that it is all just conditioning, and thats still only for a low number of attacks.

your combat effectiveness over all will determine whether you can or cannot 'hit your mark' so to speak....

then you cross over into things like joint manipulation, such as jiujitsu or chin na. most of these types of techniques can push to breaks...isnt that teh deadly? already fully ingrained into the training regime...all that it takes is the intent to injure...

[bawang]

http://ejmas.com/jmanly/articles/2001/jmanlyart_gorn_0401.htm

dancing, eye gouging and testicle ripping were popular past time in virginia

[David Jamieson]

http://ejmas.com/jmanly/articles/2001/jmanlyart_gorn_0401.htm

dancing, eye gouging and testicle ripping were popular past time in virginia

so was marrying your sister....

[Lucas]

didnt knifefighter start a thread a long time ago about the backwoods brawlers? i think he said something like they used to sharpen their thumb nails to gouge each others eyes out. :eek:

[taai gihk yahn]

so was marrying your sister....

u married bawang's sister? that makes him ur "little brother"...

[Hardwork108]

u married bawang's sister? that makes him ur "little brother"...

I hope that Bawang's sister doesn't take after their mother.....:D

[David Jamieson]

u married bawang's sister? that makes him ur "little brother"...

well...in virginia maybe.

[Lucas]

thats where all the lip biting comes in...

[A BIONIC LEG]

We have techniques in our forms that vary from ear tears to genital removal. The technique itself is practiced through the form but the ability to remove a private area via tiger claw comes through strength training of the fingers. Weather or not I would ever think about using this in a fight comes from intent. I think there is a very small percentage of practictioners that have that in them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

didnt knifefighter start a thread a long time ago about the backwoods brawlers? i think he said something like they used to sharpen their thumb nails to gouge each others eyes out. :eek:

Yes, he mentioned that he had a family member/decendant that had a history of competing in those events.

[David Jamieson]

Yes, he mentioned that he had a family member/decendant that had a history of competing in those events.

competing in events?

that just sounds weird. lol.

Back in those days it was more likely you'd fight over a piece of land, a woman, a creek or some such thing. organized competitions for eye gouging and nose biting conflicts?

Yeah, that would pretty much make everyone involved a mentally deficient individual of the highest order.

to be fair, we are talking about Knifefighter though. lol :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

competing in events?

that just sounds weird. lol.

Back in those days it was more likely you'd fight over a piece of land, a woman, a creek or some such thing. organized competitions for eye gouging and nose biting conflicts?

Yeah, that would pretty much make everyone involved a mentally deficient individual of the highest order.

to be fair, we are talking about Knifefighter though. lol :p

You guys just hate Dale because his uber-awesome hair and because he could wipe the floor with 99% of the people here.
:p

[Ray Pina]

People that train gung fu are not really concerned with ring fighting true
and being compared to MMA is really silly to begin with. true again.

The question could be asked then: what is it that Kung Fu does to verify it's effectiveness, substantiate many of its remarkable claims/ability, and maintain quality control?

[Lucas]

The question could be asked then: what is it that Kung Fu does to verify it's effectiveness, substantiate many of its remarkable claims/ability, and maintain quality control?

This is done only in part in regards to cma from how i see it. we know there is a lot of garbage out there. however, the cma that is legitimate is generally being taught by people who have put in the competition time, in one format or another, or have applied their material repeatedly through some sort of enforcement career. Either that, or you have teachers who may not have taken part in that themselves heavily, but perhaps their teacher did and their students currently do. not letting the loop break so to speak in terms of quality control and evolution of the standard/nonstandard material that they teach.

thats why its very important for people to find a teacher that is dedicated to the conintuation of the tradition of combat. everything else is not martial art but martial art.

[Eric Olson]

The question could be asked then: what is it that Kung Fu does to verify it's effectiveness, substantiate many of its remarkable claims/ability, and maintain quality control?

Excellent point! I think it's difficult to establish that because there's not any objective standard. It's all relative to who you are, who your opponent is and the context you find yourselves in. This is why it's called martial art and not martial science.

Sporting events try to minimize confounding variables (to use some scientific lingo) to establish a "fair fight" (just as science tries to establish a "fair test").

But this means that techniques may be less effective in a different context or against a different opponent. And techniques that are barred may be more effective in another context.

So how can we objective or scientific about it? How can we establish standards? I'm not sure. I think that may be part of the reason that TMA has fallen back on to forms because at least there you can objectively say that someone knows the form or not.

EO

[YouKnowWho]

The question could be asked then: what is it that Kung Fu does to verify it's effectiveness, substantiate many of its remarkable claims/ability, and maintain quality control?

I don't know about you guys, in my basement, I have a jar that save all the eyeballs that I took out from my enemies. I used to collect heads that I cut off with my Maio Dao, but since it takes too much space, today, I only collect eyeballs.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://i551.photobucket.com/albums/ii468/ts46176/seagal.gif

[goju]

You guys just hate Dale because his uber-awesome hair and because he could wipe the floor with 99% of the people here.
:p

saying we envy him because of his hair is like saying we envy you for your height :D

[Frost]

You guys just hate Dale because his uber-awesome hair and because he could wipe the floor with 99% of the people here.
:p

anyone else notice that the number of fun threads went way down and the number of unrealistic posts went way up when he was banned?

[sanjuro_ronin]

saying we envy him because of his hair is like saying we envy you for your height :D

Rooster blower

[Darthlawyer]

The question could be asked then: what is it that Kung Fu does to verify it's effectiveness, substantiate many of its remarkable claims/ability, and maintain quality control?

I'd say that most people who are at all self-aware, and who focus at all when they are training can tell when they have improved their own athleticism, speed, balance, power and other necessities of TCMA. For example, if I've been training to do a one-legged squat in a form, and finally I can do it without losing balance, I know that I have improved through my training.

I'd ask a somewhat similar question of MMA athletes: How do MMA athletes know that they aren't prematurely aging their bodies by fighting to aggressively and exposing themselves to excessive risks of injury? From my admittedly outsider's view, it would appear that the competitive fighting careers of most fighters in that area are significantly shorter than the "careers" of those training in TCMA.

I know there's a bit of "apples vs. oranges" inherent in any of this MMA vs TMA argument, but my personal belief is that MMA is drastically faster to learn to fight effectively. I'd say if you took 2 people and had one training in MMA for 2 years and one training in TMA for 2 years, the MMA'er would win (in an appropriate rule set) the majority of the time. However, if you went on a longer timeline, say till both fighters were in their 40s and 50s, and you'd have only one fighter. The TMA artist would still be able to practice his Art, whereas the MMA'er would have retired long ago due to knee injuries, repeated concussions, or other injuries and wear and tear. Granted, MMA is a relatively recent development, and with the current state of sports-medicine, I could be wrong, but I'd hypothesize that TMA is better of for the long run for people looking to have a life-long hobby something you could practice with your grandchildren, rather than just being able to show pictures to your children as to what you "used to" do.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'd say that most people who are at all self-aware, and who focus at all when they are training can tell when they have improved their own athleticism, speed, balance, power and other necessities of TCMA. For example, if I've been training to do a one-legged squat in a form, and finally I can do it without losing balance, I know that I have improved through my training.

I'd ask a somewhat similar question of MMA athletes: How do MMA athletes know that they aren't prematurely aging their bodies by fighting to aggressively and exposing themselves to excessive risks of injury? From my admittedly outsider's view, it would appear that the competitive fighting careers of most fighters in that area are significantly shorter than the "careers" of those training in TCMA.

I know there's a bit of "apples vs. oranges" inherent in any of this MMA vs TMA argument, but my personal belief is that MMA is drastically faster to learn to fight effectively. I'd say if you took 2 people and had one training in MMA for 2 years and one training in TMA for 2 years, the MMA'er would win (in an appropriate rule set) the majority of the time. However, if you went on a longer timeline, say till both fighters were in their 40s and 50s, and you'd have only one fighter. The TMA artist would still be able to practice his Art, whereas the MMA'er would have retired long ago due to knee injuries, repeated concussions, or other injuries and wear and tear. Granted, MMA is a relatively recent development, and with the current state of sports-medicine, I could be wrong, but I'd hypothesize that TMA is better of for the long run for people looking to have a life-long hobby something you could practice with your grandchildren, rather than just being able to show pictures to your children as to what you "used to" do.

I think you are confusing competitive stress on the body with "environmental" stress on the body through the activity.
MMA is simply a combination of striking, clinching, throwing and ground work, in other words, it is what MA have always been since the dawn of time.

There is nothing more physiclaly demanding in MMA training than there is VS any other comparable method of training.

[MightyB]

... However, if you went on a longer timeline, say till both fighters were in their 40s and 50s, and you'd have only one fighter. The TMA artist would still be able to practice his Art, whereas the MMA'er would have retired long ago due to knee injuries, repeated concussions, or other injuries and wear and tear. Granted, MMA is a relatively recent development, and with the current state of sports-medicine, I could be wrong, but I'd hypothesize that TMA is better of for the long run for people looking to have a life-long hobby something you could practice with your grandchildren, rather than just being able to show pictures to your children as to what you "used to" do.

Rebuttal

--------------

[SPJ]

there are rules for safety in the ring.

lei tai can be set with rules defining what is considered a win and what is a loss beforehand.

lei tai can also be a death match, then both have to sign life/death certificate or shen si zhuang or declaration of life and death

meaning if some how death occurs, no sueing the other party.

well

for most of us, tapping to yield is enough.

lose a shirt buy a new one

lost a fight, then fight another day

no need to lose life or get seriously injured, or do we.

:D

[YouKnowWho]

no need to lose life or get seriously injured, or do we.
What will you do in the following situation?

When someone bowed to you and asked, "Dear master, may I ask you the application of Taiji needle at the bottom of the sea?" When you showed him the application, he suddently attacked you without warning.

You may not want to look for trouble but sometime trouble will look for you.

[Lucas]

break his wrist/arm :D and then throw him down onto the ground, and then kick him in the head.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I'd say that most people who are at all self-aware, and who focus at all when they are training can tell when they have improved their own athleticism, speed, balance, power and other necessities of TCMA. For example, if I've been training to do a one-legged squat in a form, and finally I can do it without losing balance, I know that I have improved through my training.

I'd ask a somewhat similar question of MMA athletes: How do MMA athletes know that they aren't prematurely aging their bodies by fighting to aggressively and exposing themselves to excessive risks of injury? From my admittedly outsider's view, it would appear that the competitive fighting careers of most fighters in that area are significantly shorter than the "careers" of those training in TCMA.

I know there's a bit of "apples vs. oranges" inherent in any of this MMA vs TMA argument, but my personal belief is that MMA is drastically faster to learn to fight effectively. I'd say if you took 2 people and had one training in MMA for 2 years and one training in TMA for 2 years, the MMA'er would win (in an appropriate rule set) the majority of the time. However, if you went on a longer timeline, say till both fighters were in their 40s and 50s, and you'd have only one fighter. The TMA artist would still be able to practice his Art, whereas the MMA'er would have retired long ago due to knee injuries, repeated concussions, or other injuries and wear and tear. Granted, MMA is a relatively recent development, and with the current state of sports-medicine, I could be wrong, but I'd hypothesize that TMA is better of for the long run for people looking to have a life-long hobby something you could practice with your grandchildren, rather than just being able to show pictures to your children as to what you "used to" do.

The problem with this ideology is that many of the Kung Fu people who don't train with pressure testing their skills can't and will never be able to fight.

We all have a short window of time when we are in our fighting prime physically, which is usually 18-19 (when puberty is completely done and growth has stopped) until maybe 36 or 37, which even than is pushing it. After this reaction time, speed, stamina, all these go down hill. Strength does remain and the "old man" strength as it is sometimes called can be the most formidable tool you have, that and of course experience, widsom, and trachery. But there is a reason that you don't see guys in their 50's competing against top competition in MMA, Boxing, or any other combat sport. Yes, there is Randy Couture, but if anyone thinks Couture would match up well with someone in their prime like Jon Jones they are kidding themselves.

But the point is this, yes, health wise the Kung Fu artist may be healthier in some respects at an older age, but just because they practiced forms and chi kung for 30 years does not mean they can fight. This is not a blanket statement, we all know we are part of the Kung Fu group that can fight;), but training methods will always be the determination of a fighter's worth.

[MightyB]

We all have a short window of time when we are in our fighting prime physically, which is usually 18-19 (when puberty is completely done and growth has stopped) until maybe 36 or 37, which even than is pushing it. After this reaction time, speed, stamina, all these go down hill. Strength does remain and the "old man" strength as it is sometimes called can be the most formidable tool you have, that and of course experience, widsom, and trachery. But there is a reason that you don't see guys in their 50's competing against top competition in MMA, Boxing, or any other combat sport. Yes, there is Randy Couture, but if anyone thinks Couture would match up well with someone in their prime like Jon Jones they are kidding themselves.


10 years ago, I'd agree with you, but I think our perceptions on age and capabilities is going to change. The glass ceiling has been shattered. Is there a limit - yes, but I think it's moved and is in the process of stabilizing. I think we're in for professional athletes being competitive into their mid 50s. I think the fans will have a hard time accepting 50 year old athletes, but nevertheless, they will be competitive.

[sanjuro_ronin]

10 years ago, I'd agree with you, but I think our perceptions on age and capabilities is going to change. The glass ceiling has been shattered. Is there a limit - yes, but I think it's moved and is in the process of stabilizing. I think we're in for professional athletes being competitive into their mid 50s. I think the fans will have a hard time accepting 50 year old athletes, but nevertheless, they will be competitive.

Yes and no.
Because of many things such as better training methodologies and far better "recovery methods";), we will see people being high level athletes for far longer, provided they are high level to begin with.
High level athletes have always been "better than average" regardless of age, as compared to the average joe.
That said.
Outside of the occasional freak, the average older high level athlete will still be compared to the younger one if they go head-to-head and as we have seen, typically, that doesn't bold well for the older athlete.

[MightyB]

That said.
Outside of the occasional freak, the average older high level athlete will still be compared to the younger one if they go head-to-head and as we have seen, typically, that doesn't bold well for the older athlete.

Today we say that... but is it true? How about in 5 years? Or 10? When will Favre call it quits... for real?

[iunojupiter]

Today we say that... but is it true? How about in 5 years? Or 10? When will Favre call it quits... for real?

When will Favre realize he sucks and should be put to pasture?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Today we say that... but is it true? How about in 5 years? Or 10? When will Favre call it quits... for real?

Well, when AND IF it becomes the norm rather than the exception then I will say, you're right, till then :p

Look at Jack Lalane and all he did well into his 70's, but he was the exception, not the norm.
Not saying that older athletes won't be competitive or that the lifespan of younger ones won't be more than it is now, NO, I think that will indeed be the case.

[MightyB]

honestly - I don't care about the elite stuff. All I care about is myself and I can say, barring some horrible accident, that I will still be able to trounce 20 something "young studs" in my local kwoons and gyms well into my 50s. The exceptions being the occasional freak of nature that has the potential to be a pro. The best part being, the older I get, if I lose, the more I can blame on age :D

[wenshu]

When will Favre call it quits... for real?

When someone takes away his camera phone?

[YouKnowWho]

the older I get, if I lose, the more I can blame on age :D

Next time when someone knocks on my door and request a challenge, I'll sit on my wheel chair and open my door. I'll then scream, "I'll sue you if you dare to touch me."

[MightyB]

Next time when someone knocks on my door and request a challenge, I'll sit on my wheel chair and open my door. I'll then scream, "I'll sue you if you dare to touch me."

now that's funny :D

True story - the other day I'm rolling pretty hard with this young ukrainian kid. I mess up and he catches my arm in an Americana. It's not quite right, but he's basically got me. I say stop- let me help with your technique. I then let him apply the americana while teaching him the proper technique. After which- we go back to neutral and we start again. this time I win. ;)

[TenTigers]

Next time when someone knocks on my door and request a challenge, I'll sit on my wheel chair and open my door. I'll then scream, "I'll sue you if you dare to touch me."
I would run him over in my wheelchair.
I'm gonna get me one of those Bobcats-no, wait. a Bobcat is a mini bulldozer..hmmm...on second thought..
Anyway, what I meant was a Rascal, but I'd have Q-Branch (or Overhaulin, or Monster Garage) set it up with ramming bumpers, machine guns, tire cutters, oil slick, smoke screen...yeah, like that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://deadrising-2.com/images/features/Blitzkrieg.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.gavinphilips.com/_/rsrc/1286490660381/projects/combatwheelchair-1/Combat_Wheelchair_013.jpg?height=400&width=266

[SPJ]

http://deadrising-2.com/images/features/Blitzkrieg.jpg

wow

talking about armed and dangerous.

:eek:;):D

[goju]

anyone else notice that the number of fun threads went way down and the number of unrealistic posts went way up when he was banned?

looks about the same to me tbh

[Frost]

Today we say that... but is it true? How about in 5 years? Or 10? When will Favre call it quits... for real?

of course the flip side is also true, with better training and recovery methods younger athletes are getting better all the time too

[Wildwoo]

hahahaha, this would make for some good advertising. :D

I recently learned the d!ck punch, beat your face on backwards make you eat you own lips combo Do-fux firecracker technique. Very deadly-BANNED from the RING cool as fuk:cool:

[Iron_Eagle_76]

of course the flip side is also true, with better training and recovery methods younger athletes are getting better all the time too

The great thing will be an increase in the Masters divisions so that guys or gals can still compete into their older years.

[lkfmdc]

deadly basement training

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgDW5tiWORc&feature=player_embedded

[sanjuro_ronin]

deadly basement training

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgDW5tiWORc&feature=player_embedded

The sheer awesomeness of that awesome display is only over shadowed by the sheer awesomeness of their awesome wardrobe !

http://www.naughtyfake.com/pics/demotivational-poster/0810/awesome-tits-demotivational-poster-1224386684.jpg

[David Jamieson]

I dunno, I think d1ck sucking videos are inappropriate here. :p

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Hitler's take on MMA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXDSemmWvwQ

[donjitsu2]

No such thing as "too deadly" for the ring, if you want to test a technique you cna always find a venue.
Beyond that, it's a case of relativity.
If you can't hit a guy in the head with a fist jab you won't be able to finger jab his eyes, that's for sure.
If you can kick a guy in the body or head or thigh, knee or groin is no problem.
If you can't hit a guy in the jaw, you won't be able to hit his throat.

Fact is, it is far harder to be effective with limited rules than with no rules so the "too deadly" is a moot point.

^^ = Truth. 'Nuff Said.