New Philipp Bayer clip [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

k gledhill

04-05-2011, 06:10 PM

Its a deliberate test...nothing more. When the tan comes she angles to counter strike and face in one action, he allows this 'sometimes' :D and then if she thinks her stance is good, ie knees , hips, elbows, can she strike his chest AND simultaneously deflect his strike in.... he proceeds to step and face her too, shoving her stance with his step, not the way we fight, the way we 'test'...so the fighting 'habit' is to also optionally counter attack by angling to the side of the extending line of force, tactics means you evade the other arm .
He mutually also trains to shadow her and use facing 'chew ying' .
I f I step into you, seung ma and you step back with me , toi ma, its a chi-sao stance mobility exercise, we do it to test correct foot work, which foot leads , how wide, too narrow, arms collapse elbows out ?.... We also go sideways...all over, clock face.
The same clip you see can go further when she steps sideways to his facing after her angling, he then follows her or whatever, it becomes an intuitive "shadow attacks shadow". We only turn to face each others movement, so if you turn before me you potentially also open a line to your center if I am in the facing position. This is a common mistake easily taken advantage of .

The same drill moves on to be a pre sparring drill done randomly without sticking, instead we start a few feet away from each other and one throws punches while the other optionally angles and reface anglers etc...while fighting with a lead and rear hand, man sao & wu sao.
You can angle and counter or simply blast in with usual pak-da without any angling....but if I do angle and make any contact or pak as I angle, the chi-sao drilling makes me solid with focused force 'ging' ballistic force etc.. , iow Im not falling around or chasing arms with open centerlines, bad elbows, etc...another part of the angling idea in chi-sao. To make sure when you do angle the alignment is correct , or you open a line to your center either side of your extending arm, subtle but there for a guy who fights with the wu sao as the 'next line in' regardless of what you do to the lead....
The preceding dan chi-sao lok sao all help the basic requirements of alignment, then you add motion and alignment, etc...
When it all comes together at full sparring speed you have no time for corrections like chi-sao allows.

If you ever want to meet up again let me know :D

you can see the ballistic idea at 2:22 in the clip, instead of turning your body and use bong to redirect , you face and 'slap' sharply with bong while still facing a now turned opponent...by the same logic if you try to turn me using bong and your body while I face.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQBhp-2nQ-E&NR=1

Graham H

04-06-2011, 05:34 AM

I believe that they could use more angling when in a defensive mode. They could also avoid going back every time pressure builds, but then I am using my own distinct references as regards the WC I have been taught. Pretty interesting, anyway. :)

Its a training drill used for developing certain attributes. Going back is important in this drill. Don't over analyse!!!! For those that know whats going on they will see things that those who don't cannot!!!! ;) This is the case with all video clips that have been put up that Philipp is present in. They are just drills and teaching methods for improving his students behaviour in fighting. Nothing more!!!

If you want a true idea of his Ving Tsun then you must visit him and then you can join the converted as myself and Kevin have!!! ;)

GH

Badnews

04-06-2011, 06:34 AM

...Don't over analyse!!!! For those that know whats going on they will see things that those who don't cannot!!!! ;) This is the case with all video clips that have been put up that Philipp is present in. ...

GH[/QUOTE]

The same could be said by pretty much anybody else on here whose methods you don't agree with/understand, yet quite freely criticize in nearly every instance....

...and for the record I'm not a hater, I can see the benefit of this drill....currently WSL, but also studied in depth Lee Shing and Chu Shong Tin and gratefully accepted the different methods which contributed to my martial development....

sanjuro_ronin

04-06-2011, 06:56 AM

Good stuff, while I personally dislike anything that starts from chi sao, it was still good stuff.

Graham H

04-06-2011, 07:51 AM

The same could be said by pretty much anybody else on here whose methods you don't agree with/understand, yet quite freely criticize in nearly every instance....

...and for the record I'm not a hater, I can see the benefit of this drill....currently WSL, but also studied in depth Lee Shing and Chu Shong Tin and gratefully accepted the different methods which contributed to my martial development....

Badnews!!! :rolleyes: :p

GH

couch

04-06-2011, 09:16 AM

I believe that they could use more angling when in a defensive mode. They could also avoid going back every time pressure builds, but then I am using my own distinct references as regards the WC I have been taught. Pretty interesting, anyway. :)

She's moving back because HE'S BETTER and HE'S MAKING HER move back.

Jeez.

Let's see a video with her and a junior and you'll see the same thing, except she'll be pushing the junior all over the place.

k gledhill

04-06-2011, 11:10 AM

Seung ma, toi ma drills are mutual, done either direction.
not to show superiority, testing stances,facing,etc...
fighting later.

Graham H

04-06-2011, 02:03 PM

Seung ma, toi ma drills are mutual, done either direction.
not to show superiority, testing stances,facing,etc...
fighting later.

;););););)........ nuff said!!!

GH

Vajramusti

04-06-2011, 04:11 PM

;););););)........ nuff said!!!

GH

the stances are wing chun stances-by no means limited to PB or WSL.

joy chaudhuri

Hardwork108

04-06-2011, 05:19 PM

Its a training drill used for developing certain attributes.
What attribute, the running away one? How can one accept and "embrace" incoming force when one is letting it overwhelm him?

Seriously, that is not the way I have been taught in Wing Chun, nor Chow Gar, for that matter, as the idea is that once you start going back, you then get "run over". I have seen this kind of Chi sao training while looking at some WC schools in London.

The principle of not going back in kung fu is not just limited to Wing Chun, but other kung fu styles which give emphasis to Internal aspects such as "softness", fine tuned sensitivity and "listening", as well as certain types of power development.

The "approach" of not going back has fundamental implications as regards distinct TCMA training methodologies and the skills and faculties that are required. Many of these aspects are missing from most modern "kung fu" schools.

So IMHO, any serious kung fu student should research the principle of not going back and its REQUIREMENTS as regards skill and physical faculties.

Note: I also commented on what I saw as a lack of angling during defensive actions.

Let's connect the dots, shall we?

So, Structure and "strong body unity" to create core power; fine tuned "softness", "sensitivity" and "listening" abilities; together with a more fluid angling. Can you see what I am getting to?

Going back is important in this drill.
The only way I was taught to go back in Wing Chun was during emergencies, when I would take ONE step back to recover the Central Line.

Don't over analyse!!!!
I was just comparing it to the way I was taught kung fu. Could it be that it is you, who is over analysing what I said?

For those that know whats going on they will see things that those who don't cannot!!!! ;) This is the case with all video clips that have been put up that Philipp is present in. They are just drills and teaching methods for improving his students behaviour in fighting. Nothing more!!!
Well, from what I have seen from various sifu's, I would say that they would see this type of exercise as something that would create bad habits.

I have never ever been taught to go back like that, even when my sifu would be raining blows left, right and center during contacty chi sao training (and sparring). The mindset is to keep your mind calm, absorb and angle and find a way through with strikes and or chin-na techniques.

If you want a true idea of his Ving Tsun then you must visit him and then you can join the converted as myself and Kevin have!!! ;)
I am sure that he is a dedicated and decent WC sifu. However, this being a public forum, I gave my perspective, based on my own Wing Chun training, as regards what I saw on that video.

Hardwork108

04-06-2011, 05:26 PM

She's moving back because HE'S BETTER and HE'S MAKING HER move back.
It is pretty obvious that she was going back because of his pressure. However, my sifu would do the same to me and tell me off every time I went back. He would show me how NOT to go back during such pressure.

Jeez.

Let's see a video with her and a junior and you'll see the same thing, except she'll be pushing the junior all over the place.
Again, the junior should be taught NOT to go back when under pressure. That is what all of the misunderstood concepts such as "softness", "sensitivity" and "listening" are all about, not to mention the fluid use of angling.

The way I see it, if you get used to going back, which is actually a normal human reaction to oncoming danger, then the idea of hopping around, out of one's roots/stance, to avoid getting hit, as in boxing/sports karate, etc., is not too far behind, and this is what one sees in a lot of "kung fu" fighting nowadays.

Hendrik

04-07-2011, 08:38 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnHLJPpIUw0&feature=player_embedded#at=120

:)

Very strong forward pressure training which cover the frontal space with hi intensity. Great!

Graham H

04-07-2011, 11:24 AM

Hardwork = reading your posts!!!

GH

Hardwork108

04-07-2011, 04:26 PM

Hardwork = reading your posts!!!

GH

Kung fu = Hard work

No one said that understanding real kung fu concepts would be easy....

Graham H

04-08-2011, 02:09 AM

Kung fu = Hard work

No one said that understanding real kung fu concepts would be easy....

Well for me understanding what I practice is easy!!! Ving Tsun is a simple system full of simple ideas. The hard part is executing it correctly because we are so prone to making mistakes and resorting back to our normal behaviour in a fight.

The big problem with Wing Chun in general are all the idiots that have ruined it!!!. Anybody with an ounce of sense will know that especially after reading some of the posts and ideas on this forum!!!!

GH

Hardwork108

04-08-2011, 03:05 PM

Well for me understanding what I practice is easy!!! Ving Tsun is a simple system full of simple ideas.

Would you call the "idea" of not going back, simple? Or, the idea of "embracing" force?

Yes, you can refer to the directness and "straight" line approach of Wing Chun, as simple, and perhaps they are on paper, but they are really simple when you build the faculties to perform them under pressure and in real time!

What I am saying is that to get to this "simplicity" you will need a lot of complicated training and hard work.

By the way, using the same approach, you will come to notice that there are many other "simple" kung fu styles out there too.

The hard part is executing it correctly because we are so prone to making mistakes and resorting back to our normal behaviour in a fight.
You will find that many other kung fu styles have "simple" techniques and approaches, that is, once you build the necessary faculties.

The big problem with Wing Chun in general are all the idiots that have ruined it!!!. Anybody with an ounce of sense will know that especially after reading some of the posts and ideas on this forum!!!!

GH

Well, it seems that for once we agree, as that is what I have, in one way, or the other, been saying in this very forum for a long time........

Graham H

04-09-2011, 05:10 AM

Would you call the "idea" of not going back, simple? Or, the idea of "embracing" force?

I was referring to the concepts and principles of the system. Its not complicated at all!!!

In training we MUST go back so as our training partner can learn how to come forward correctly and vice versa. It is important that two people co-operate in training. The building of a good training partner is necessary for improvement. Also in an actual fight we must retreat if we are being overwhelmed. Our intention is to forward and deal with obsticles should they be present but going at it like a bull in a china shop is stupid. We go back and find chances. You can see how we train this in this clip with the use of Man Sau.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA3Wc5UodVc

What I am saying is that to get to this "simplicity" you will need a lot of complicated training and hard work.

Training is not complicated my friend. If you find your training complicated then you are doing something wrong. Difficult to attain the required skills through hard work but no way complicated.

What other simple styles????

Embracing force??? Whats all that about???
GH

k gledhill

04-09-2011, 07:40 AM

Going back isn't easily done either, staying facing, knees ,hips, elbows all meeting the incoming force. The Seung ma toi ma in the clip first posted shows the beginning of force exchange to prepare for the shifting facing and meeting force from no pre-contact, ie you dont get loss of balance, turned facing etc...opening your flanks up as PB shows at the beginning of the clip GH posted.
Chum Kil form teaches facing, mobility, body weight momentum, Seung ma toi ma drills utilize the angling and shifting in contact to maintain distances to strike at all times with sufficient force to ko. We train not to lean forwards , backwards sideways, and stay solid IN MOTION fighting with punches. When you touch a VT fighter it feels like you met a moving mountain of force, with hands like lightning...Philipp :D

Hardwork108

04-09-2011, 01:46 PM

I was referring to the concepts and principles of the system. Its not complicated at all!!!
IMHO, things like the central line theory and the straight line approach are not complicated, but to use them successfully in combat one needs a "little bit" of complicated training, including the softness and fine tuned "sensitivity" and "listening" abilities.

Also, the fact that in my lineage we are discouraged from going back, introduces more "complications". We also train Iron Palm and Iron Body, which are not "simple", by no means.

In training we MUST go back so as our training partner can learn how to come forward correctly and vice versa.
There is vaidity in what you say. In our school however, one learns how to go forward by actually overwhelming his opponent, who ultimately becomes unable to sustain his position.

It is important that two people co-operate in training. The building of a good training partner is necessary for improvement.
I agree, but the not going back of both training partners is actually assists both individuals in finding ways through, without giving ground.

Also in an actual fight we must retreat if we are being overwhelmed. Our intention is to forward and deal with obsticles should they be present but going at it like a bull in a china shop is stupid.
I believe that you have misunderstood the kung fu concept of not going back. It has nothing to do with standing there and exchanging blows. It has everything to do with interceting and closing down your opponent, using sensitivity and softness to find a way through and neutralize him with a couple of moves.

As I mentioned before, this concept is not just a concept taught to me by my WC sifu but also by Chow Gar one. Of course, both of these styles have significantly different approaches in dealing with incoming force, but revealingly they share their strategy of not going back.

I believe that any serious kung fu student should research this aspect very carefully as IMHO, more than one "secret" of kung fu is embedded within this approach.

We go back and find chances. You can see how we train this in this clip with the use of Man Sau.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA3Wc5UodVc
Thank you for posting the clip.

Our approach was completely different. We only go back, and that is ONE step, to recover our centeral lines. We do not go back as a course of strategy.

To avoid misunderstandings, let me give you an example of how I was taught to deal with the same type of attack you see on 0:15. Instead of going back with a pak, I would make a 45 degree step forward the outside of my opponent's left side. My "to be" trapped arm would turn into Tan Sao (or tan/lap combination), while my right fist would target the left side of the opponent's neck.

I am not sure if what I say is clear, but please practice it with partner, and see if it makes sense to you. It may even be a good idea to not tell your partner about what you are about to do. ;)

Training is not complicated my friend. If you find your training complicated then you are doing something wrong. Difficult to attain the required skills through hard work but no way complicated.
I see your point, but to get the softness; fine-tuned "sensitivity" and the "listening" abilities required for one to not go back when others are overwhelmed, is not a simple matter, and that is proven that many people here have misunderstood me whenever I have talked about these aspects of TCMAs.

What other simple styles????
I said "simple", meaning direct and perhaps simple looking, but complicated styles, such as Chow Gar, Southern Praying Mantis.

Embracing force??? Whats all that about???
GH
Well, one of the things it is about is not letting it push you back. However, to embrace force one will need a "little bit" of complicated training/understanding to be able to avoid being overwhelmed by it, through using (borrowing) it to overwhelm the opponent.

Again, going back to Philipp Bayer. I am not taking anything away from him, as he seems very skilled and talented. All I am just saying that in my lineage we are trained NOT go back, and that this is a valid kung fu strategy that we share with other styles of Kung Fu.:)

Hardwork108

04-09-2011, 02:28 PM

When you touch a VT fighter it feels like you met a moving mountain of force, with hands like lightning...Philipp :D

A moving mountain of force should never go back.;)

Buddha_Fist

04-09-2011, 04:41 PM

A moving mountain of force should never go back.;)

Have you ever actually sparred with a non-cooperating boxer, Muay Thai or MMA guy? Not your buddy who did any of those for six months and then switched to your school as it is superior, and teaches ancient secrets, and iron palm training, and to listen, and sensitivity, and sooooftness, and feeeeeeling....

It's simple: A person with actual ring experience knows that you have to be able to move back to control distance, to control the situation. Believing that your secret strategy of not going back will work most of the times is simply Fantasy-Fu.

There are too many assumptions and fantasies floating around. A week of sparring with experienced boxers is a wonderful cure for that!

Hardwork108

04-09-2011, 04:49 PM

Have you ever actually sparred with a non-cooperating boxer, Muay Thai or MMA guy? Not your buddy who did any of those for six months and then switched to your school as it is superior, and teaches ancient secrets, and iron palm training, and to listen, and sensitivity, and sooooftness, and feeeeeeling....

It's simple: A person with actual ring experience knows that you have to be able to move back to control distance, to control the situation. Believing that your secret strategy of not going back will work most of the times is simply Fantasy-Fu.

There are too many assumptions and fantasies floating around. A week of sparring with experienced boxers is a wonderful cure for that!

The kung fu strategy I talk about is about fighting for real. It is applicable for sparring, but at the end of the day it is to close down the adversary and finish him, before he manages to pull a weapon on you, or before his friends show up.

From our school's point of view, allowing yourself to be overwhelmed by incoming force and hence going back, will enable your opponent to run you over (worst case scenario), or to delay the encounter enough to turn it into a "sparring" match, and that is something you don't want in the street.

What I am talking about was not invented by me, as it is a valid TCMA approach. Perhaps you you should research into it and figure out the mindset, logic and the specialized TCMA skills required for this kind of approach?

PS. Our Mainland Chinese lineage of Wing Chun practices Iron Palm as part of its curriculum. IP is a valid TCMA methodology and so are the high level skills of fine tuned softness, "listening" and sensitivity.

You may want to research the above, instead of ridiculing and putting them down!

Buddha_Fist

04-09-2011, 04:54 PM

The kung fu strategy I talk about is about fighting for real. It is applicable for sparring, but at the end of the day it is to close down the adversary and finish him, before he manages to pull a weapon on you, or before his friends show up.

From our school's point of view, allowing yourself to be overwhelmed by incoming force and hence going back, will enable your opponent to run you over (worst case scenario), or to delay the encounter enough to turn it into a "sparring" match, and that is something you don't want in the street.

What I am talking about was not invented by me, as it is a valid TCMA approach. Perhaps you you should research into it and figure out the mindset and logic behind this kind of approach?

Go spar a boxer!

Hardwork108

04-09-2011, 04:57 PM

Go spar a boxer!
Find a real kung fu school and spar with them the way you would spar a boxer and see how far it will get you.

k gledhill

04-09-2011, 05:40 PM

Ive been involved in er several fights ...movement is your friend.
being solid and fluid during a fight ie balanced.

Hardwork108

04-09-2011, 06:00 PM

Ive been involved in er several fights ...movement is your friend.
being solid and fluid during a fight ie balanced.
No one is arguing about that, just that the direction of the "movement" can also be forward (NOT backward).....;)

Again, the serious kung fu students should investigate this concept further as this will open the door to lesser known TCMA skill sets, among other things.:)

k gledhill

04-09-2011, 06:17 PM

Hardwork108

04-10-2011, 01:46 AM

I can stop from being moved back in chi-sao with a partner who delivers force to prove my positions. IE I use my inward elbow to centerline and shut it down with structure , hips etc... BUT I wouldnt fight like this or waddle around in a basic stance to try and emulate the same effect in a barfight, but thats me :D
In our lineage of Wing Chun, the intensity of Chi sao practice increases as the student develops. This ends up in the use fists, palms, elbow, legs, knees and feet, as striking and Chin-na/Kumna tools. This in turn leads to full on sparring that by the way, maintains "sticking" skills from intense chi sao practice together with correct rooting, if not exact stances.

So, in a real fight one ends up using kung fu and not kickboxing inspired approaches. Incidentally, in Chow Gar, one is meant to immediately "sink" before going into action, if a fight is imminent.

Graham H

04-10-2011, 06:23 AM

To avoid misunderstandings, let me give you an example of how I was taught to deal with the same type of attack you see on 0:15. Instead of going back with a pak, I would make a 45 degree step forward the outside of my opponent's left side. My "to be" trapped arm would turn into Tan Sao (or tan/lap combination), while my right fist would target the left side of the opponent's neck.

Its not a pak sau. Its a man sau and whilst I respect your POV what you have said is typical of WCK'ers that are lost in the Chi Sau bubble. I used to have the same "sensitivity" ideas as you until I was shown the error of my ways. I will also say (again) that you cannot judge Philipps VT without being stood in front of him and I am 100% certain that like the rest of us who have gone you will leave with a different idea of Ving Tsun.

Your sensitivity and listening abilities are nonsense!!!;)

GH

Vajramusti

04-10-2011, 08:29 AM

Hardwork108

04-10-2011, 12:36 PM

Its not a pak sau. Its a man sau
That is not how we do man sau in our lineage, but of course, not all lineages do things equally.

and whilst I respect your POV what you have said is typical of WCK'ers that are lost in the Chi Sau bubble.
Maybe my previous posts were not too clear. Chi sao for us is a training tool to among other things, help develop sensitivity, softness and "listening" abitlities within the holistic structure of Wing Chun's principles and concepts.

As the student develops new techniques and technical dimensions are added, while the intensity of the whole exercise increases. The techniques will eventually include kicks, knees, takedowns, Chin-na/Kumna ("grappling"), and more.

Ultimately, the chi sao practice evolves into full on contact sparring and you TAKE and USE all of the faculties that you have developed in Chi Sao to your sparring.

We DO NOT go back during sparring (unless it is dictated by a punch in the nose :D).

I used to have the same "sensitivity" ideas as you until I was shown the error of my ways.

Having sensitivity "ideas" is not enough. I would hazard a guess that when you had these "ideas" you lacked authentic teachings to show you how to gain the necessary skills and implement them.

I will also say (again) that you cannot judge Philipps
I think that I have made it more than clear that I am NOT judging Philipps!

I merely said that we do things differently - we don't go backi - in my lineage of Wing Chun, which by all means is very different from the Hong Kong lineages. I also mentioned that the same is true as regards my Chow Gar practice.

An inquisitive Wing Chun practitioner should wonder the why and how of this fact, without seeing himself as a traitor.......

VT without being stood in front of him and I am 100% certain that like the rest of us who have gone you will leave with a different idea of Ving Tsun.
I would say the same about you standing in front of my sifu.;)

Your sensitivity and listening abilities are nonsense!!!;)
Now, who is judging who?

Suffice to say that nowadays (read Mcdojo phenomenon), the "softness", "sensitivity" and "listening" aspects of kung fu are not practiced beyond at best, a superficial level, as a result there is a lot of misunderstanding and even ignorance, as regards this fundamental aspect of kung fu practice - especially the closer range styles.

IMHO, this is the signs of the times we live in as regards the TMAs in general.....

k gledhill

04-10-2011, 04:07 PM

[QUOTE=Graham H; I will also say (again) that you cannot judge Philipps VT without being stood in front of him and I am 100% certain that like the rest of us who have gone you will leave with a different idea of Ving Tsun.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Between Graham and Kevin there is a lot of repetitious promotion of PB. Understandable promotion of their new lineages and loyalties . True that you cannot judge a person completely from a video.
True of anybody and most actions captured in video or photo or film or verbally described..

Ignoring some of Kevin's jibes, including some that apparently were deleted.

What I saw in the last PB vid that I saw--PB has good wing chun. But it is not the only possible
game. In one piece he bong saoed the left attack and showed how he was vulnerable from a right attack. OK. Then he showed how going outside of the left witha step and using a right hand pak sao was better. Of course.

There are several other possible alternatives depending on footwork and the timing that is used. The left bong sao was an off side bong sao and the center was being lost...you can recover with a step and continuing the bong into an elbow close quarters straight into
the heart.

Of course there are other alternatives including going inside instead of outside. Depends on who what how and when...the devil in the details.

Nothing personal.

joy chaudhuri

I deleted my own posts joy ;) Im not here to have a feud ....no need fueling a fire of misunderstandings from my attempts to explain in words what takes seconds with hands on face to face. Bottom line is that I and GH both have something to share. Not promoting, simply put PB isnt a marketing guy or a dvd merchant etc...very quiet guy humble. I started to try and share the elbow thinking and I got Terence Nubnutz treatment. Like I was making up WSL system :D

Of course there are alternatives, your only seeing a tip of the 'berg, so to speak.

What the bong sao turning part was trying to explain, was that if you try to use your body and arm to lose facing , over turning to redirect with bong etc....a 'facer' would simply take your flank and hit directly...what we do, let you turn , lean, reach wobble , etc...and attack while facing. this can be sideways back and angling , forwards etc...

Vajramusti

04-10-2011, 06:00 PM

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1088827][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1088801]

I deleted my own posts joy ;) Im not here to have a feud ....no need fueling a fire of misunderstandings from my attempts to explain in words
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree no feuding needed. I very much respect WSL- though I am not in that lineage.

joy chaudhuri

Hendrik

04-10-2011, 07:03 PM

Its not a pak sau. Its a man sau and whilst I respect your POV what you have said is typical of WCK'ers that are lost in the Chi Sau bubble. I used to have the same "sensitivity" ideas as you until I was shown the error of my ways. I will also say (again) that you cannot judge Philipps VT without being stood in front of him and I am 100% certain that like the rest of us who have gone you will leave with a different idea of Ving Tsun.

Your sensitivity and listening abilities are nonsense!!!;)

GH

It doesnt have to get here.

Technical is technical and there are different alternative.

WSL lineage has some signatures and some great points which is evolved further. But that is not the only thing in WCK. So, to discuss what is the pro and con technically is better then starting to get ego involved.

Hendrik

04-10-2011, 07:06 PM

That is not how we do man sau in our lineage, but of course, not all lineages do things equal.............

Now, who is judging who?

Suffice to say that nowadays (read Mcdojo phenomenon), the "softness", "sensitivity" and "listening" aspects of kung fu are not practiced beyond at best, a superficial level, as a result there is a lot of misunderstanding and even ignorance, as regards this fundamental aspect of kung fu practice - especially the closer range styles.

IMHO, this is the signs of the times we live in as regards the TMAs in general.....

There is no point to get into ego stuffs.

If one knows the 6DFV and the 20Ch, then very clearly one sees the pro and cons of different methods. No one is GOD and perfect, thus every methods has pro and cons and could be analyzed clearly without going into ego ...

Hendrik

04-10-2011, 07:08 PM

Hardwork108

04-10-2011, 07:25 PM

There is no point to get into ego stuffs.

If one knows the 6DFV and the 20Ch, then very clearly one sees the pro and cons of different methods. No one is GOD and perfect, thus every methods has pro and cons and could be analyzed clearly without going into ego ...}
I agree. My point was the same as yours. There are different ways to do the same thing. We do it by avoiding going back.

Hardwork108

04-10-2011, 07:36 PM

So what is the different between this two WCK methods? strickly technical, what is the pro and cons?
Well, the difference in performing the forward way, one will need a different mindset and skills such as fine tuned sensitivity and "listening" abilities, that allow the defender to react immediately in a forward direction as soon as the opponent makes contact (bridge), hence not allowing him to complete his attack.

The other way is to go back and set up a counter attack. Which is a strategy that I have seen more in karate than in kung fu - personally speaking, that is.

HOwever, what Philipp Bayer does is also valid, because he is still using Wing Chun. What I was trying to explain was my school's approach, which is to avoid going back and absorb and flow through the incoming attack.

GlennR

04-11-2011, 02:04 AM

There is no point to get into ego stuffs.

If one knows the 6DFV and the 20Ch, then very clearly one sees the pro and cons of different methods. No one is GOD and perfect, thus every methods has pro and cons and could be analyzed clearly without going into ego ...

And if one doesnt know??

Thats comment is beyond egotistical

Hendrik

04-11-2011, 08:08 AM

Well, the difference in performing the forward way, one will need a different mindset and skills such as fine tuned sensitivity and "listening" abilities, that allow the defender to react immediately in a forward direction as soon as the opponent makes contact (bridge), hence not allowing him to complete his attack.

The other way is to go back and set up a counter attack. Which is a strategy that I have seen more in karate than in kung fu - personally speaking, that is.

HOwever, what Philipp Bayer does is also valid, because he is still using Wing Chun. What I was trying to explain was my school's approach, which is to avoid going back and absorb and flow through the incoming attack.

You know, we dont even have to get here.

Saying what is WCK or what is not and all the reason above really doesnt make sense; that is because that doesnt said anything on momentum handling which is physics and the core of the whole theme.

This analysis can be totally objective if one using the natural of the momentum handling as independent variable.

Take a look at the momentum characteristics and the pro and con is clearly express. Again, that is the reason I keep mention 20Ch 6DFV with the tools we could have an objective view.

So again, what is the pro and con of both technics under the physics of momentum?

For me,

It is very obvious what P.B is using is WSL's Blood and Sweat.

One can see WSL's understanding on the 6DFV, timing, and sensing very well. P.B or others who uses WSL's solution might or might not understand what is it and why is it similar to those who drive a car doesnt know why the car is designed. So, to discuss technically is to get to this level of understanding and discuss its pro and con.

Compare with Fong's technics in the previous thread, WSL solution is superior then Fong's in frontal confrontation. yes, both has structure....ect but WSL solution is an upgrade evolution. Fong's tech is usual WCK and usefull but it is a different grade when a slit of second and the rush frontal momentum handling needs to be handle. Fong's technics will collapse where WSL solution works. And can WSL further evolve? yes, that is going toward advance WCK.

Your method as you post IMHO cant handle the incoming momentum well even it is technically correct in using the WCK technics combination. so, it is "correct" WCK combination but it is disaster in high speed momentum handling. IMHO. you know why it doesnt work? because you did not considerate or Sense the momentum which come toward you. WCner with 6dfv training will sense the momentum similar to something get into the 6dfv radar screen, its direction, and its speed, and has to deal with it. that is sensing and that is soft. Sensing doesnt means touching soft doesnt mean weak.

Further more, it is not that Man sau or Pak sau, it is the dissolving of in coming momentum and still in the tracking offensive range which is important, that man sau or pak sau or what ever is just a tracking and second insurance, IMHO.

Thus, because we could learn and know the insigh, we can predict win and lost before even the match. that is real kung fu.

Vajramusti

04-11-2011, 08:53 AM

Hendrik

04-11-2011, 09:04 AM

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1088873]

Compare with Fong's technics in the previous thread, WSL solution is superior then Fong's in frontal confrontation. yes, both has structure....ect but WSL solution is an upgrade evolution. Fong's tech is usual WCK and usefull but it is a different grade when a slit of second and the rush frontal momentum handling needs to be handle. Fong's technics will collapse where WSL solution works. And can WSL further evolve? yes, that is going toward advance WCK.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Hendrik-WSL is good as I have said. I actually have rolled with him on two different occasions
and have a sense of his structure.Not just video watching.

But as far as your above comparison I don't think that you know what you are talking about. Video watching and lost in thought.I will let it go at that.

joy chaudhuri

Joy,

You are right. I might not know what I am talking about since I have never met WSL or Fong as you do.

Perhaps, put it as the following better express my view.
observing the Triangle Drilling momentum of WSL solution vesus Fong's linear momentum ; one is like the rock drilling machine and one is like a windmill. both are great however there are pro and con's: facing a triangle drilling machine or windmill. that is where I based my opinion in. so it is not WSL or Fong but the triangle drilling or windmill which I am focusing on.

Vajramusti

04-11-2011, 09:40 AM

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1088883]

Joy,

You are right. I might not know what I am talking about since I have never met WSL or Fong as you do.

Perhaps, put it as the following better express my view.
observing the Triangle Drilling momentum of WSL solution vesus Fong's linear momentum ; one is like the rock drilling machine and one is like a windmill. both are great however there are pro and con's: facing a triangle drilling machine or windmill. that is where I based my opinion in. so it is not WSL or Fong but the triangle drilling or windmill which I am focusing on.

Hendrik-you have no idea whether rock drilling exits in Fong wing chun or not. Not an uncommon problem in trusting your eyes.

joy

Hendrik

04-11-2011, 10:22 AM

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1088888]

Hendrik-you have no idea whether rock drilling exits in Fong wing chun or not. Not an uncommon problem in trusting your eyes.

joy

Joy,

May be you are right. and you have a great point which I am open with for my view is not the only way.

However, observing at the momentum dynamic habitual level of Fong, WSL, P.B.....etc

I would say the method is different and the conditioning is different; thus the art or Habitual response of both party are different.

as in the following

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRNrY9O4g8o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ui6rj58DA0&feature=relmfu

WSL is robing center door like a dynamic drill. Fong is staying in center door like a windmill. These two type of habitual momentum signatures seems to represent the two groups.

also, see how WSL let the coming momentum passed at the same time cut it where Fong is using his structure to handle the coming momentum.

So, hopefully, we could discussing solid technical to see different pro and cons. also, there are pro and cons on every habitual signature, thus, as the requirement of SLT practice which said "every points must be crystal clear" we could clearly knows the pro and cons of every points.

Vajramusti

04-11-2011, 10:46 AM

Hendrik

04-11-2011, 10:57 AM

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1088915][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1088904]

Joy,

May be you are right. and you have a great point which I am open with for my view is not the only way.

However, observing at the momentum dynamic habitual level of Fong, WSL, P.B.....etc

-------------------------------------------
Hi Hendrik- "observing"?? Perception is a complex process. Yours is your own.

Joy

Joy,

As you know,

motion is independent of perception. habit is a repeatable act. so, using motion/momentum and habit could actually observe the physical facts.

if the WCner cant get passed the boundary of self-center and using independent variable such as motion, momentum... to discuss technical issue then there is no hope for further development. IMHO.

Vajramusti

04-11-2011, 11:35 AM

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1088920][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1088919][QUOTE=Hendrik;1088915]

Joy,

As you know,

motion is independent of perception. habit is a repeatable act. so, using motion/momentum and habit could actually observe the physical facts.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik- we are on different frequencies. No problem.

I am referring to your "perception" of motion by watching a you tube video- not the motion itself.

You are entitled to your perception.

Years ago when you are talking about CLF versus WC in your house: on the far side of your large "living room"- when we touched hands I moved. As I recall you were surprised and said something like that the move came after long years of practice. True in part but the move was a triangle drilling move.

But memories can fade or get distorted over time.

When it comes to Fong's structure, you don't know what you are talking about. You are falling into the common trap of comparing things from You tube in quite different contexts.

Joy

Hendrik

04-11-2011, 12:45 PM

Vajramusti

04-11-2011, 01:51 PM

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1088925][QUOTE=Hendrik;1088920][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1088919]

Joy,

I dont recall our discussion, but you could be right.

((Difference in memories?))

also,
ok. according to you on WSL and Fong, I dont know what I am talking about.

((I don't think that you do)))

I can accept that view as millions of other views. you can be right.

((Your acceptance is your business, IMO))

So, according to you, could you please share with us what is a good representation of Fong method having the same with WSL solution in youtube? that would be interesting to learn from.

((Master Fong teaches his students first hand. He has no designated"representative neither does Master HKM .You could go to one of Master Fong's seminars in Tucson. On his website there is a schedule specially for this month.. I am not here to sell his views. I just try to correct obvious errors that I see in statements about him.. I have no control over your perceptions of what I said.I let it go at that. Out of respect for WSL I don't critique or compare him him here.))

joy

Hardwork108

04-11-2011, 03:34 PM

You know, we dont even have to get here.

Saying what is WCK or what is not and all the reason above really doesnt make sense; that is because that doesnt said anything on momentum handling which is physics and the core of the whole theme.

This analysis can be totally objective if one using the natural of the momentum handling as independent variable.

Take a look at the momentum characteristics and the pro and con is clearly express. Again, that is the reason I keep mention 20Ch 6DFV with the tools we could have an objective view.

So again, what is the pro and con of both technics under the physics of momentum?

For me,

It is very obvious what P.B is using is WSL's Blood and Sweat.

One can see WSL's understanding on the 6DFV, timing, and sensing very well. P.B or others who uses WSL's solution might or might not understand what is it and why is it similar to those who drive a car doesnt know why the car is designed. So, to discuss technically is to get to this level of understanding and discuss its pro and con.

Compare with Fong's technics in the previous thread, WSL solution is superior then Fong's in frontal confrontation. yes, both has structure....ect but WSL solution is an upgrade evolution. Fong's tech is usual WCK and usefull but it is a different grade when a slit of second and the rush frontal momentum handling needs to be handle. Fong's technics will collapse where WSL solution works. And can WSL further evolve? yes, that is going toward advance WCK.

Your method as you post IMHO cant handle the incoming momentum well even it is technically correct in using the WCK technics combination. so, it is "correct" WCK combination but it is disaster in high speed momentum handling. IMHO. you know why it doesnt work? because you did not considerate or Sense the momentum which come toward you. WCner with 6dfv training will sense the momentum similar to something get into the 6dfv radar screen, its direction, and its speed, and has to deal with it. that is sensing and that is soft. Sensing doesnt means touching soft doesnt mean weak.

Further more, it is not that Man sau or Pak sau, it is the dissolving of in coming momentum and still in the tracking offensive range which is important, that man sau or pak sau or what ever is just a tracking and second insurance, IMHO.

Thus, because we could learn and know the insigh, we can predict win and lost before even the match. that is real kung fu.

Hendrik, some of the stuff you mention may be above my head. I do agree that both approaches will have pros and cons, but my lineage's attitude is that going forward will have less cons and more pros. So the training is geared towards that. That is the only point that I was making. Of course, I did also mention that the same mindset (backed by techniques) was taught in Chow Gar, as well.

k gledhill

04-11-2011, 07:50 PM

Hey Hendrik,

While Joy is correct that no one represents Fong but himself, coming from his lineage I might be able to answer you to the best of my ability and understanding.
This is only what I've learned personally from my Sifu, so keep that in mind.

I can see to some degree what you mean by the difference in approach between WSL and HKM/Fong. While in video it might seem that way, like I've said before, they both have elements of each other. I can tell you that the Lop Sau attack WSL is doing towards the end of the video is what we call a 'slow' attack. It's one of the first things we learn after Lop Sau. There's 4 'slow' attacks and they all are performed out of Lop Sau.

This is just the break down of the initiating attack for the 4 'slow' attacks but there's follow up movements that bring it back into Lop Sau:
1 - Pak Sau 2 - Biu Sau 3 - You grab the arm downwards in a locking motion and then punch and the opponent blocks using a long arm bar type(can't remember the names) 4 - Lop and Chop to the outside neck

As far as the Windmill vs Rock Drilling thing goes. I believe we have both, we just don't over emphasize the 'rock drilling' and use it only when appropriate. We try to focus more on timing, angling, and "flowing". Like I've said before, 'forward' structure usually is the first thing to fail in a real fight, especially if the opponent is bigger and stronger. It's far to easy to either be knocked off balance or uprooted. Fights are nothing like Chi Sao. The 'triangle structure', I believe, is best practiced in a both forward and reverse manner so that this very important issue can be addressed.

If you watch the two videos I've uploaded you can see it used when applicable.

This one is with my Sifu. If you watch closely, you can see him use the 'triangle structure' to deflect in a reverse manner. We're going at it full force and I'm not holding back my power at all with him. When appropriate, he braces backwards with his structure. This accomplishes two things: one, it gives proper distancing as one should have with their structure in a real fight. Two, it allows him to break my timing in a realistic way if desired without having to use brute force. -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axeKt8Gnjeo

This one is with a fellow student. Granted it's eight minutes long and for about the first half we're moving pretty slow to warm up but there's quite a few examples of 'forward' structure in this video. I'll put "time" capsuled links of it here to get you to the right spot of just a few. -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v913E8eQ_SQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=76s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v913E8eQ_SQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=352s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v913E8eQ_SQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=415s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v913E8eQ_SQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=455s

Here's one of deflecting a strong incoming force
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v913E8eQ_SQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=449s

And here's one of the classic WSL outside attack approach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v913E8eQ_SQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=207s

_

I keep seeing the same clip over n over... it cant be done in clips , if your ever in ny drop by. takes seconds.

k gledhill

04-11-2011, 08:26 PM

That's arrogance buddy if I've ever seen it! I was just trying to have a healthy conversation with Hendrick and you drop that line. Why don't you just post a video of yourself already so we can all see it?

I mean literally, you posted the same clip over and over....was that intentional ?
yes it will take seconds to explain with hands on, clips cant do it. As joy said you will see what YOU think i am doing is like you because we share similar shapes , bong, tan, fok...what WE do with it is different development.
I showed a guy from Fongs lineage a couple of months ago while he was in NYC ,the same stuff , he liked it too. Not a secret. Not a death match either, just healthy friendly info exchange. :D it was new to him too.

mvbrown21

04-11-2011, 10:49 PM

You're right Kevin, I'll fix it now

mvbrown21

04-11-2011, 11:01 PM

Links are now fixed

I would say the method is different and the conditioning is different; thus the art or Habitual response of both party are different.

WSL is robing center door like a dynamic drill. Fong is staying in center door like a windmill. These two type of habitual momentum signatures seems to represent the two groups.

also, see how WSL let the coming momentum passed at the same time cut it where Fong is using his structure to handle the coming momentum.

Hey Hendrik,

While Joy is correct that no one represents Fong but himself, coming from his lineage I might be able to answer you to the best of my ability and understanding.
This is only what I've learned personally from my Sifu, so keep that in mind.

I can see to some degree what you mean by the difference in approach between WSL and HKM/Fong. While in video it might seem that way, like I've said before, they both have elements of each other. I can tell you that the Lop Sau attack WSL is doing towards the end of the video is what we call a 'slow' attack. It's one of the first things we learn after Lop Sau. There's 4 'slow' attacks and they all are performed out of Lop Sau.

This is just the break down of the initiating attack for the 4 'slow' attacks but there's follow up movements that bring it back into Lop Sau:
1 - Pak Sau 2 - Biu Sau 3 - You grab the arm downwards in a locking motion and then punch and the opponent blocks using a long arm bar type(can't remember the names) 4 - Lop and Chop to the outside neck

As far as the Windmill vs Rock Drilling thing goes. I believe we have both, we just don't over emphasize the 'rock drilling' and use it only when appropriate. We try to focus more on timing, angling, and "flowing". Like I've said before, 'forward' structure usually is the first thing to fail in a real fight, especially if the opponent is bigger and stronger. It's far too easy to either be knocked off balance or uprooted. Fights are nothing like Chi Sao. The 'triangle structure', I believe, is best practiced in a both forward and reverse manner so that this very important issue can be addressed.

If you watch the two videos I've uploaded you can see it used when applicable.

This one is with my Sifu. If you watch closely, you can see him use the 'triangle structure' to deflect in a reverse manner. We're going at it full force and I'm not holding back my power at all with him. When appropriate, he braces backwards with his structure. This accomplishes two things: one, it gives proper distancing as one should have with their structure in a real fight. Two, it allows him to break my timing in a realistic way if desired without having to use brute force. -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axeKt8Gnjeo

This one is with a fellow student. Granted it's eight minutes long and for about the first half we're moving pretty slow to warm up but there's quite a few examples of 'forward' structure in this video. I'll put "time" capsuled links of it here to get you to the right spot of just a few. -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjtLGjHMTKk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDrVZJ0pHPA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcLnbARwjwA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72pkj1xnAlo

Here's one of deflecting a strong incoming force
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_3Io2Pk-DM

And here's one of the classic WSL outside attack approach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4qr3mhlIVQ

_

Hardwork108

04-11-2011, 11:55 PM

Links are now fixed

Hey Hendrik,

While Joy is correct that no one represents Fong but himself, coming from his lineage I might be able to answer you to the best of my ability and understanding.
This is only what I've learned personally from my Sifu, so keep that in mind.

I can see to some degree what you mean by the difference in approach between WSL and HKM/Fong. While in video it might seem that way, like I've said before, they both have elements of each other. I can tell you that the Lop Sau attack WSL is doing towards the end of the video is what we call a 'slow' attack. It's one of the first things we learn after Lop Sau. There's 4 'slow' attacks and they all are performed out of Lop Sau.

This is just the break down of the initiating attack for the 4 'slow' attacks but there's follow up movements that bring it back into Lop Sau:
1 - Pak Sau 2 - Biu Sau 3 - You grab the arm downwards in a locking motion and then punch and the opponent blocks using a long arm bar type(can't remember the names) 4 - Lop and Chop to the outside neck

As far as the Windmill vs Rock Drilling thing goes. I believe we have both, we just don't over emphasize the 'rock drilling' and use it only when appropriate. We try to focus more on timing, angling, and "flowing". Like I've said before, 'forward' structure usually is the first thing to fail in a real fight, especially if the opponent is bigger and stronger. It's far too easy to either be knocked off balance or uprooted. Fights are nothing like Chi Sao. The 'triangle structure', I believe, is best practiced in a both forward and reverse manner so that this very important issue can be addressed.

If you watch the two videos I've uploaded you can see it used when applicable.

This one is with my Sifu. If you watch closely, you can see him use the 'triangle structure' to deflect in a reverse manner. We're going at it full force and I'm not holding back my power at all with him. When appropriate, he braces backwards with his structure. This accomplishes two things: one, it gives proper distancing as one should have with their structure in a real fight. Two, it allows him to break my timing in a realistic way if desired without having to use brute force. -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axeKt8Gnjeo

This one is with a fellow student. Granted it's eight minutes long and for about the first half we're moving pretty slow to warm up but there's quite a few examples of 'forward' structure in this video. I'll put "time" capsuled links of it here to get you to the right spot of just a few. -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjtLGjHMTKk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDrVZJ0pHPA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcLnbARwjwA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72pkj1xnAlo

Here's one of deflecting a strong incoming force
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_3Io2Pk-DM

And here's one of the classic WSL outside attack approach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4qr3mhlIVQ

_

Very "different".......

k gledhill

04-12-2011, 04:17 AM

We dont turn to deflect force, we turn to face the direction/position of the partner....no bong deflecting by turning body too. You guys do that a lot and so did I before, so I know the 'chi-sao' thinkng. If you turn your apex point off the partner your only able to use one side to hit. If you face you can strike with 2 continuous attacks in cycles. Bong should be able to deflect as you face sideways to your strike line , bong is the same energy as pak sao only using the forearm from underneath, wrist low elbow high so we can use the forearm as the 'slap' surface. then we rotat elbow back down fast to strike again , thats the cycle in chi-sao bong to tan hit, while the bong is up we strike with jum/fook sao energy to the partners tan strike...elbow versus elbow 'in v out'.

Graham H

04-12-2011, 05:21 AM

......@ Matt Brown

If those clips are your idea of Ving Tsun then it shouldn't be hard to convert you if you find your way forward. ;)

Those videos are not good IMO but typical of what is seen in many WCK schools and why I left them before!!!

GH

LoneTiger108

04-12-2011, 08:59 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axeKt8Gnjeo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjtLGjHMTKk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDrVZJ0pHPA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcLnbARwjwA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72pkj1xnAlo

Here's one of deflecting a strong incoming force
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_3Io2Pk-DM

And here's one of the classic WSL outside attack approach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4qr3mhlIVQ

It's good that you have at least 'shared' your own training clips here, so don't listen to the bashers who have still to share anything of their own other than words (which is also great, but y'all know what I'm saying!)

yes it will take seconds to explain with hands on, clips cant do it.

I totally disagree Kev! You just don't 'want' to share :D

If you can talk, train, or teach in a class there is nothing you can't explain through a video clip. I agree you still need to 'feel' it all, but I have not even see you train/teach what you rap about on here through a video yet. Totally dissappointing imho. Living through others examples will only last so long... ;)

Hendrik

04-12-2011, 09:07 AM

thanks guys,

The issue I see here is we often jump into conclusion before verify what we think.

For me, based on 6dfv space analysis, WSL and Fong method are two different ways.

WSL solution both passed and cut in like the ice breaking ship into the ice. which make it faster and sharp.

Some will see it some will not.

It is very obvious WSL has a very different momentum dynamic structure cultivated. Those signatures are like the face of a person. it tells who one is and cannot be hide.

In my teenage time, the sifus dont like others to take pictures and film one because they dont want these signatures being seen. others will know what is pro and con once seen. for there are plenty of high hand in TCMA world which knows.

For me, the body movement of an individual carry the signature of how one condition one's body and be able to read that signature know the characteristics.

In the TCMA we all love to safe face. but in the reality of momentum, there is no face there, it is either the ship is going to cut into the ice or the ship become the titanic. WCner needs to come to this level of mind set instead of keep arguing I have it too.... because the ICE doesnt care you have it or not. the bottom line is can one cut in?

I am not from WSL lineage, but when we see a great art we need to acknowlege it.

horserider

04-12-2011, 10:00 AM

Vajramusti

04-12-2011, 10:09 AM

This is getting a bit tiresome...but will try to correct some mis-impressions-though I don't expect musch "listening" in this noise box of a forum.

1. Hendrik- you missed the points in post after post. No issue of saving face. Just facts.
a.the late WSL was a great wing chun exponent and fighter and I honor him.

2. sitting and watching You Tubes and videos through your own eyes does not mean that you have accurate ideas about what you see.I have been to your place (thanks for your kindness)and you can come to my place and I can show you what I am referring to.

3.Good students of Fong and Fong sifu himself know how to use the ice cutter when needed. One response does not fit all situations. You have to have lots of things in a wing chun arsenal...and not be predictable.

Kevin- I am always focused on the line and squaring and facing.. Going in or deflect while going in... all depends on the details not on dogma.

Pointless chest beating to unilaterally say what you showed a Fong "student". Dont' know who he was...or how long he really studied or how experienced he was. So just repeating your stories
illustrate zilch.

Graham- so you skipped ship to learn from PB. Good for you so what? Why attempt to sell and sell visiting PB. Gets boring-on a chat list.
Matt, in good faith put some up some videos to discuss things. After giving your opinion- why not just let it go.

Kevin and Graham- best to try to elevate the level of discussion on the forum rather than engaging in same old same old put downs. Put downs are a dis-service to your current lineage... and the reputation of the art.

Gotta get some work done.

Joy Chaudhuri

Hendrik

04-12-2011, 12:23 PM

Hendrick my friend I agree with you but think there is more to it.

You are right about body no question there. So no reason to compare or argue about different versions of Ip Man teachings.. Also since I do not practice Ip man wing chun I can not talk about it to specific degree.

Since body tells all you are right about no photo in old days. many funny stories about picture taking .

To point. It is not either or. All things have 2 sides Yin /Yang. To be fighter one must be adaptable so can not just focus on one thing must understand other side of things as well.

Cutting ice is good but sometimes ice to thick even for ice breaker so ice breaker must find another way.

Perhaps some videos are trying to show other way?

Hi Friend,

you know, a straight talk. evidentally WSL is traveling the path toward people like WXZ of Yee Chuan on his later design solution. Thus, his way will cut into ice sharply compare with most WCK solution which is less effective. It is law of momentum WSL has insight better then lots of WCners. that we have to admit.

There is right way and wrong way to handle momentum, as I point out in the previous post on some one instead of let the momentum passed and cut into it as in WSL method trying to out fast or out momentum without realize it doesnt work.

Yin yang is about balance, however, there is right or wrong of doing things. WSL solution is tested and thus proper in lots of ways compare with most look a like WCK.

I am not from WSL lineage but i study its pro and con because I might have to face it from my opponent. the only way one can handle something is after one can see what it is.

For me, the previous two pages of posts are filled with seeing not what it is but keep going to argue.

Face it WSL solution is having 3 hands instead of two. the attacking arm itself is two hands, thus it is one more hand then usual. and the handling of the momentum make it possible to let the incoming force passed side way and slide into the ice in the same time. it is a beautiful design. and it is closer to the top TCMA such as WXZ's six directional power then usual general Nam Kuen with fighting hand technics via hand technics instead of going directly to solve the momentum issue.

Saying the above, ofcorse there are multi ways to see things and can be valid. My view above is just one view.

However, if one doesnt get down that level of depth but keep arguing this person or that name. that is off mark. because name's title and style doesnt tell how to deal with the 3rd hand of WSL and the momentum of cut in. thus, one cant handle what one doesnt know and doesnt see.

k gledhill

04-12-2011, 02:50 PM

It's good that you have at least 'shared' your own training clips here, so don't listen to the bashers who have still to share anything of their own other than words (which is also great, but y'all know what I'm saying!)

I totally disagree Kev! You just don't 'want' to share :D

If you can talk, train, or teach in a class there is nothing you can't explain through a video clip. I agree you still need to 'feel' it all, but I have not even see you train/teach what you rap about on here through a video yet. Totally dissappointing imho. Living through others examples will only last so long... ;)

If you havent seen it through Philipps clips, your certainly not going to see it in mine...

Hendrik

04-12-2011, 03:42 PM

1. Hendrik- you missed the points in post after post. No issue of saving face. Just facts.
a.the late WSL was a great wing chun exponent and fighter and I honor him.

i

Joy,

ok.

Thanks!

LoneTiger108

04-13-2011, 01:48 AM

If you havent seen it through Philipps clips, your certainly not going to see it in mine...

:D Your response is a typical cop-out dude. Let me say it clearly.

I don't want to see Sifu Bayer. I've seen too much of him to be fair. I want to see his students that brag about their inherent WSL skills and put down any and everyone else that doesn't seem to fit their own VT mould.

I want to see you and I hope one day you can be bothered to turn on the video camera and share your insights, like so many others try to do each week.

fred

04-13-2011, 02:20 AM

Again, the junior should be taught NOT to go back when under pressure. That is what all of the misunderstood concepts such as "softness", "sensitivity" and "listening" are all about, not to mention the fluid use of angling.

Hi all , have been lurking here a while, and whenever i read stuff about not moving back i can only imagine some people aint doing enough sparring work :) .
Have to agree with Kevin & graham on this one, it is important to learn how to move back, we do similar drills (another wsl line) . Imo tho in clip Bayer is giving student bit too much fwd pressure since they appear to be beginner, she cant keep her stance as she is moved back so she is not learning as much as she could, she appears to be bouncing straight back due to loosing structure and thus cannot ride bayers pressure to angle back thus getting a good line for counter.

Getting back to first point anyone who thinks they can stand there never loosing ground is foolish and can never have tested there form properly ie)sparring against other non-wc guys . Whats better to try and learn to never move back ,then when you are you are bulldozed your stance falls apart cos you never drills this? or too learn how to maintain some stance as you are moved back?

reguards
fred

bennyvt

04-13-2011, 03:36 AM

sounds good fred. what wsl ine are you from

k gledhill

04-13-2011, 04:37 AM

:D Your response is a typical cop-out dude. Let me say it clearly.

I don't want to see Sifu Bayer. I've seen too much of him to be fair. I want to see his students that brag about their inherent WSL skills and put down any and everyone else that doesn't seem to fit their own VT mould.

I want to see you and I hope one day you can be bothered to turn on the video camera and share your insights, like so many others try to do each week.

Ive never been a great video taker, but will try :D

Graham H

04-13-2011, 05:11 AM

It's good that you have at least 'shared' your own training clips here, so don't listen to the bashers who have still to share anything of their own other than words (which is also great, but y'all know what I'm saying!)

I totally disagree Kev! You just don't 'want' to share :D

If you can talk, train, or teach in a class there is nothing you can't explain through a video clip. I agree you still need to 'feel' it all, but I have not even see you train/teach what you rap about on here through a video yet. Totally dissappointing imho. Living through others examples will only last so long... ;)

....so far off the mark that there is no point in replying. :rolleyes:

GH

Graham H

04-13-2011, 05:15 AM

Imo tho in clip Bayer is giving student bit too much fwd pressure since they appear to be beginner, she cant keep her stance as she is moved back so she is not learning as much as she could, she appears to be bouncing straight back due to loosing structure and thus cannot ride bayers pressure to angle back thus getting a good line for counter.

More misunderstandings I see!!!! I'm not going to bother going into why this is important for the student but it is!!!! I wish you guys would stop trying to read from video footage because you are all a mile off!!! :rolleyes:

GH

Graham H

04-13-2011, 05:26 AM

Graham- so you skipped ship to learn from PB. Good for you so what? Why attempt to sell and sell visiting PB. Gets boring-on a chat list.
Matt, in good faith put some up some videos to discuss things. After giving your opinion- why not just let it go.

I skipped many ships.........a Fong rowing boat was included!!! I am entitled to give my opinion on video footage just as you are entitled to your opinions. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE]Kevin and Graham- best to try to elevate the level of discussion on the forum rather than engaging in same old same old put downs. Put downs are a dis-service to your current lineage... and the reputation of the art.

How can I elevate it when 95% is complete nonsense??? Tell me that wise man!!! :mad:

GH

fred

04-13-2011, 07:00 AM

More misunderstandings I see!!!! I'm not going to bother going into why this is important for the student but it is!!!!

GH

Hi Graham, nothing like loyal students hey :) I did agree that the drill is important hence my previous post 'we do similar drills'. What I noticed is that bayer is working too far above students level at times in clip, that is why shes bouncing back in uncontrolled fashion. Perhaps if he turned it down slightly she would gain more ,gradually turning it up over time to full on.

reguards
fred

Vajramusti

04-13-2011, 07:09 AM

Joy,

ok.

Thanks!
---------------------------------------------
No problem Hendrik. I do respect WSL but I am quite happy with the wing chun lineage that I am in:have not had any interest in switching. I just watch other lines to develop my own sense of Ip Man;s legacy. Of course I try things out myself- always have.

Better than chest beating or putting down others.

To see a slt taught directly at length by Ip Man you might want to take a look at Ho Kam Ming's SLT. The DVD has been out for a while.
My computer shortcomings prevents me from showing it here.

Cheers,

joy chaudhuri

Graham H

04-13-2011, 10:37 AM

What I noticed is that bayer is working too far above students level at times in clip, that is why shes bouncing back in uncontrolled fashion. Perhaps if he turned it down slightly she would gain more ,gradually turning it up over time to full on.

reguards
fred 

Fred

Ok so maybe I will reply........coz I'm bored and waiting for training to start.

Your Teacher HAS to operate above the students level so they can improve and get used to the exchange of force. Without this sort of training your strength (specifically strength required for VT) will not improve.
Philipp teaches in a manner where he will come to your level and lower so you can train the right action through the whole range of motion but will then turn it on again so you get used to operating when things start to get faster and the exchange of forces are greater. This is a careful systematic way of finding errors and correcting them. Philipp told me it was the same when he was being taught by WSL. You have to experience your Teachers force and skill so you know where your goals lay. With your training partners we can then drill and attain the required attributes, then its back to sparring or fighting your Teacher to see if you have improved and then find more errors to work on.
It is the same with my students..I teach the same way and use the same methods. There is no ego just seeing where your mistakes are and then going away to improve....

I will say it again for the millionth time!!!!! You or anybody else (apart form those that have been in contact with PB) do not know his skill, his training ideas or he as a person. All you can do is watch video and speculate and not one person has come close to the judging what is actually going on in these clips......If you don't know you won't see it so do me a favour and stop trying!!!

GH

k gledhill

04-13-2011, 06:03 PM

The exchange of seung ma toi ma is very important for each to have stability while exchanging all the combined force vectors at once AND coming into contact with the opponents energy. The sparring will prove weaknesses etc... sudden meeting of momentum to a point.
Philipp also says this about other aspects of drilling, we must max out and go beyond our own levels as our goal, no limit as limit. An example is doing stance work in CK. We 'axis turn' to unify 'power points' while our balance is tested to the point of losing it , on our own :D not with a partner yet.
We fight our own ability to regain/maintain balance as we spin on our axis line. We further our ability to generate force to our max while moving and shifting in a fight, not fighting for balance in the fight itself.
Not an " I'm better than.." statement, but a "..what I usually see.." is a lot of static chi-sao, with a waddle here or there fighting hands. As soon as you spar and try to stay balanced /facing it falls apart. Simple things, basics, stance alignment, strikes aimed with force , ability to cut lines of force with solid structured stances ...you cant SEE this in clips, you feeeeeeel :D

mvbrown21

04-13-2011, 07:24 PM

is a lot of static chi-sao, with a waddle here or there fighting hands. As soon as you spar and try to stay balanced /facing it falls apart. Simple things, basics, stance alignment, strikes aimed with force , ability to cut lines of force with solid structured stances ...you cant SEE this in clips, you feeeeeeel :D

You guys might think that I don't understand what you're talking about, but I do, and I just like my "path" better. Period.

I can tell you one thing though, both you and Graham are losing some serious credibility by all the crap talking you both do. I understand that one can only "feeeeeel :D" certain things. But I would like to actually "seeeeee :D" both of you do something! If not Chi Sao, then why not forms, drills, etc. I think everyone in this forum is dying to "seeeee :D" how close you guys actually look to Mr. Bayer(whom I have respect for). And then, only then, will you possibly, actually be taken a little more seriously! So let's "seeeee :D" something fellas. We might not "seeeee :D" what you want us to see but we'll definitely know whether you're credible or not!

And just on a side note, don't even try to point out that there's no demos coming from Joy. When either one of you actually have articles published in "Inside Kung Fu" magazine, then you can skip it and we'll take you seriously.

I'm mean come on, you both sound like a couple of Protestants who claim that the Catholic church did nothing for Christianity!!!

Buddha_Fist

04-13-2011, 09:00 PM

You guys might think that I don't understand what you're talking about, but I do, and I just like my "path" better. Period.

I can tell you one thing though, both you and Graham are losing some serious credibility by all the crap talking you both do. I understand that one can only "feeeeeel :D" certain things. But I would like to actually "seeeeee :D" both of you do something! If not Chi Sao, then why not forms, drills, etc. I think everyone in this forum is dying to "seeeee :D" how close you guys actually look to Mr. Bayer(whom I have respect for). And then, only then, will you possibly, actually be taken a little more seriously! So let's "seeeee :D" something fellas. We might not "seeeee :D" what you want us to see but we'll definitely know whether you're credible or not!

And just on a side note, don't even try to point out that there's no demos coming from Joy. When either one of you actually have articles published in "Inside Kung Fu" magazine, then you can skip it and we'll take you seriously.

I'm mean come on, you both sound like a couple of Protestants who claim that the Catholic church did nothing for Christianity!!!

Just as a side-note: Having an article in Inside Kung-Fu is by no means a measure of quality considering the crap they often publish. Not a jab at Joy, just stating the way things are...

mvbrown21

04-13-2011, 09:17 PM

Just as a side-note: Having an article in Inside Kung-Fu is by no means a measure of quality considering the crap they often publish. Not a jab at Joy, just stating the way things are...

I understand that and agree with you in a lot of cases, but when they wanted an article about Augustine Fong, whom is respected throughout the entire Wing Chun world, they took an article that was co-written by Fong and Joy. That does say something and it says something that Fong wanted Joy to write them

Buddha_Fist

04-13-2011, 09:25 PM

I understand that and agree with you in a lot of cases, but when they wanted an article about Augustine Fong, whom is respected throughout the entire Wing Chun world, they took an article that was co-written by Fong and Joy. That does say something and it says something that Fong wanted Joy to write them

Who is the entire Wing Chun world? Even if that was true, does the Wing Chun world's opinion matter when 95% of Wing Chun schools out there can't even match up with a simple boxer with 12 months of training?

mvbrown21

04-13-2011, 09:28 PM

Im not the 'clip' poster like you Matt. I dont need guys to like me, or to seek credibility either, especially from waddling, hand chasers ;)
What article did Joy write ? I would like to read it.

I don't need guys to like me, I'm doing what any open-minded individual does on a Kung Fu forum who wants to both share and "learn" from others perspective. I'm not going around bashing people because they don't do what I do!

As far as the articles go, here you go buddy - let's see here,

Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 16, No 4

Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 4, No 4

Inside Kung Fu, May 2003

Inside Kung Fu, May - Martial Arts Legends Presents 1998

Kung Fu/Qi Gong Magazine, 2001

Kung Fu/Qi Gong Magazine, w/ Master Fong

Two articles on Fong's website

Here's the link to them all http://www.tempewingchun.com/articles.html

fred

04-14-2011, 06:59 AM

sounds good fred. what wsl ine are you from

HI Benny,

Am from Nino bernardo family , and you ?

reguards,

fred

wkmark

04-14-2011, 08:21 AM

Thanks for the reply graham,nothing i havent heard before, and how strange same way my teacher&others operate , hmm wonder why. Of course only bayer got the real method off wsl, not the guys who trained fulltime with him in 70's, the guys he chose to train :)
You need to get off the bandwagon have yet to see anything unique in bayers approach. He appears to have good skill but so do many other wsl guys. I was planning to visit him sooner or later but your postings have put me off. Your making his method sound like a cult and his students well, just hope there not all like you.

reguards,
fred 

Guys Guys guys.... To be honest, we are all under the WSL family Lineage... It's a shame in a sense to see the bickering and put down within the same family lineage. This is what causes Ving Tsun to be the laughed at when we can't even communicate without the put downs and bickerings amongst ourselves.

Barry and Philip sihings are both good at what they teach and practice under the WSL method. Each has something to offer. Instead of trying to say who's missing what and who's wrong etc.. why not offer suggestions and examinations for each of their respective students so that they can continue to expand the WSL method. Sifu WSL never had any ego himself and never said who was better at what as long as it gets the job done in a sense. I doubt he would want to know that his student's students are fighting among themselves as being the ONLY way.

There are many approaches to WSL Ving Tsun method in a sense (I mention WSL method because I am not familiar with the other family's method given that over time the families after Yip Man has changed quite a bit; thus I can only mention WSL method as I am still able to meet with the various Sihings who are still in Hong Kong training and teaching.) The main thing is that our core objectives are still the same.
d
We frequently have students of Barry Lee, David Peterson, Philip Bayer, and others come to train with us for a few days to a week to go over each other's Ving Tsun; and I have had the honor and pleasure of training with all of them. This is not a contest to see who is right or who is wrong. We are just trying to share our knowledge and vice versa so that we can keep the WSL Method alive and strong.

There are plenty of spaces in the WORLD to accommodate all of WSL's students to expand his teachings. Just look at the amount of WSL student's who are teaching in Hong Kong and Hong Kong is a pretty small place. We all get along somewhat but it's a mutual understanding that we are trying to share what Sifu WSL taught us and not to say who's VT is right/wrong etc. In the end, the student is the person who will be using their VT. We greatly hope it won't be a copy of their teachers but something they use as a base and start to develop the VT that caters to their body, personality and experiences.

Anyways... I just felt that I wanted to share my view of this as I am relatively close to the WSL family. (Meaning Sifu, Simo, and their sons and family)

P.S.- Fred, if you DO get a chance, please do go visit Philip and any other WSL students as they are all very nice people with a great amount of knowledge. =)

Frost

04-15-2011, 02:16 AM

A view from outside (take it for what it is or reject it out of hand)

But….Good god 8 pages of basically posturing and D*ck measuring (my wing chun’s better than yours my sifu has the real deal from WSL etc) and not one clip of anyone involved actually sparring or doing any training (Honourable mention to Matt who really didn’t know what he was letting himself in for by manning up and posting apparently)

If you feel so strongly about it why not just show it in action, I mean you all have the time to type pages and pages on it so it must be important to you and you run your own schools so how much does it take to set up a camera and upload a 5 minute clips of you chi sauing and then sparring using your superior method?

And if you are going to say you can tell from a clip you need to feel, why the F7ck do you talk down on the clips you do see saying they show the same useless misguided rubbish….