Internal vs. External

[YouKnowWho]

It will be great if we can have internal clip and external clip side by side so we can clear see the difference. I'll suggest the following 4 pairs different clips for both "internal" and "external".

1. punch to the head.
2. kick to the chest.
3. lock on the elbow.
4. hip throw on the body.

If you do believe that there is difference between "internal" and "external", would you mind to share your clips here?

[Lucas]

are you trying to find fightin clips or demonstration clips?

[YouKnowWho]

are you trying to find fightin clips or demonstration clips?
Either one will be fine. Just try to solve this issue once for all.

[Lucas]

Just try to solve this issue once for all.

good luck on that one haha. but i will look around when i get home if i have a chance to try and contribute.

i think to compare combat vid to combat vid, or demo vid to demo vid can be good to, so its on the same page/level.

if possible....

[SPJ]

you may classify some training methods as internal or external.

the idea is that

you cultivate your external strength, there is a limit you may reach

however, with internal training or cultivation, you may increase your external strength

and there is no ceiling for internal training.

yes,

just on the outlook, a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, a lock is a lock, a throw is a throw.

but may be use punch bag with meter or detector

we may measure psi or pound per square inch

after a while, we may see if internal training increase that or not.

so try your punch first

and after some internal training

and try your punch again and measure psi.

--

even just look at the movement on the outside

well they all look the same.

--

:)

[David Jamieson]

Either one will be fine. Just try to solve this issue once for all.

Good luck with that sir!!

*waves as the ship sails into the open sea where many sharkwolves are....


:D

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Example of an external throw:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uSfLDuRtOM

Example of an internal throw:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uSfLDuRtOM

Problem Solved:D

[SavvySavage]

Internal is "felt" and not seen. With this definition internal people never have to show anything technically because they feel it subjectively in their bodies.

You ever see youtube clips of yogic "flying" which is really just hopping while sitting indian style. When they talk about it they say, "The feeling inside your body while flying is amazing. Inside it feels like you are lighter than air." Unfortunately this translates into them hopping around on mats. I finally got my friend to admit that "yogic flying" is misleading because I think they try to make it sound like physical flying but they aren't. They're talking about internal flying and external hopping.

[David Jamieson]

Internal is "felt" and not seen. With this definition internal people never have to show anything technically because they feel it subjectively in their bodies.

You ever see youtube clips of yogic "flying" which is really just hopping while sitting indian style. When they talk about it they say, "The feeling inside your body while flying is amazing. Inside it feels like you are lighter than air." Unfortunately this translates into them hopping around on mats. I finally got my friend to admit that "yogic flying" is misleading because I think they try to make it sound like physical flying but they aren't. They're talking about internal flying and external hopping.

I bet one crisp dollah that any internal martial artist in the world will definitely "feel" my externally produced strike upon their belly. :D

[TenTigers]

any art when practiced correctly is "internal," by definition; relaxed power, focused breath, intention, correct structure and alignment working as a unit, creating power and rooting.
If it is forced, relying on brute strength improperly applied, it is not "external," it is simply wrong.
Usually it is a result of improper or incomplete teaching, spread by guys who "earned" their Black Belts (a beginner's rank) and proclaimed themselves Masters, thus continuing the myth.
The terms, "internal and external," are simply thrown around by modern day "internal stylists," and is nothing more than snobbery.
Good Shotokan is as internal as Tai Gihk Kuen.

[taai gihk yahn]

any art when practiced correctly is "internal," by definition; relaxed power, focused breath, intention, correct structure and alignment working as a unit, creating power and rooting.
If it is forced, relying on brute strength improperly applied, it is not "external," it is simply wrong.
Usually it is a result of improper or incomplete teaching, spread by guys who "earned" their Black Belts (a beginner's rank) and proclaimed themselves Masters, thus continuing the myth.
The terms, "internal and external," are simply thrown around by modern day "internal stylists," and is nothing more than snobbery.
Good Shotokan is as internal as Tai Gihk Kuen.
stop it, just STOP IT!

[Lucas]

Example of an external throw:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uSfLDuRtOM

Example of an internal throw:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uSfLDuRtOM

Problem Solved:D

LOL bravo sir, bravo.

[TenTigers]

Example of an external throw:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uSfLDuRtOM

Example of an internal throw:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uSfLDuRtOM

Problem Solved:D
well played, sir!
I actually expected someone to show a throw done indoors and then one done outside...

[bawang]

External hemorrhoids are those that occur outside the anal verge (the distal end of the anal canal). Specifically, they are varicosities of the veins draining the territory of the inferior rectal arteries, which are branches of the internal pudendal artery. They are sometimes painful, and often accompanied by swelling and irritation. Itching, although often thought to be a symptom of external hemorrhoids, is more commonly due to skin irritation. External hemorrhoids are prone to thrombosis: if the vein ruptures and/or a blood clot develops, the hemorrhoid becomes a thrombosed hemorrhoid


Internal hemorrhoids are those that occur inside the rectum. Specifically, they are varicosities of veins draining the territory of branches of the superior rectal arteries. As this area lacks pain receptors, internal hemorrhoids are usually not painful and most people are not aware that they have them. Internal hemorrhoids, however, may bleed when irritated. Untreated internal hemorrhoids can lead to two severe forms of hemorrhoids: prolapsed and strangulated hemorrhoids. Prolapsed hemorrhoids are internal hemorrhoids that are so distended that they are pushed outside the anus. If the anal sphincter muscle goes into spasm and traps a prolapsed hemorrhoid outside the anal opening, the supply of blood is cut off, and the hemorrhoid becomes a strangulated hemorrhoid.

Internal hemorrhoids can be further graded by the degree of prolapse

[David Jamieson]

apple cider vinegar on a cotton cloth, applied to the anus combined with consumption of two tablespoons of apple cider vinegar mixed with about 4 oz of warm water will take care of a lot of the various manifestations of hemmerhoids that there are.

In many cases, it is a variety of yeast infection and can be relieved and cured within a few days with this method.

It'll sting a little, but it works.

Take it from a guy that's ridden a lot of miles on a bike and sat a lot of hours at desks and on floors. :D

[bawang]

thank you sir i will write this down very helpful

[Lucas]

External hemorrhoids are those that occur outside the anal verge (the distal end of the anal canal). Specifically, they are varicosities of the veins draining the territory of the inferior rectal arteries, which are branches of the internal pudendal artery. They are sometimes painful, and often accompanied by swelling and irritation. Itching, although often thought to be a symptom of external hemorrhoids, is more commonly due to skin irritation. External hemorrhoids are prone to thrombosis: if the vein ruptures and/or a blood clot develops, the hemorrhoid becomes a thrombosed hemorrhoid


Internal hemorrhoids are those that occur inside the rectum. Specifically, they are varicosities of veins draining the territory of branches of the superior rectal arteries. As this area lacks pain receptors, internal hemorrhoids are usually not painful and most people are not aware that they have them. Internal hemorrhoids, however, may bleed when irritated. Untreated internal hemorrhoids can lead to two severe forms of hemorrhoids: prolapsed and strangulated hemorrhoids. Prolapsed hemorrhoids are internal hemorrhoids that are so distended that they are pushed outside the anus. If the anal sphincter muscle goes into spasm and traps a prolapsed hemorrhoid outside the anal opening, the supply of blood is cut off, and the hemorrhoid becomes a strangulated hemorrhoid.

Internal hemorrhoids can be further graded by the degree of prolapse

do i have memeorize all that for my 3rd red/white stripe on my 3 blue bar red belt?

[donjitsu2]

any art when practiced correctly is "internal," by definition; relaxed power, focused breath, intention, correct structure and alignment working as a unit, creating power and rooting.
If it is forced, relying on brute strength improperly applied, it is not "external," it is simply wrong.
Usually it is a result of improper or incomplete teaching, spread by guys who "earned" their Black Belts (a beginner's rank) and proclaimed themselves Masters, thus continuing the myth.
The terms, "internal and external," are simply thrown around by modern day "internal stylists," and is nothing more than snobbery.
Good Shotokan is as internal as Tai Gihk Kuen.


My sentiments exactly.

Real "internal" training (http://www.uncagedfighter.com/p/basic-internal-training.html)is simply the result of proper body mechanics, strong focus, and strong neuromuscular connections.


Train Hard.

[SPJ]

there is a cream for everything

both internal and external.

:)

[YouKnowWho]

thank you sir i will write this down very helpful

Don't tell me that you are "少年得痔(Shao Nia De Zhi)".

[bawang]

i did a lot of hard qigong without clenching my anus

[SPJ]

there is a cream for everything

both internal and external.

:)

along the same vein/line of thought

there is a bandaid for everything.

my point is that

some times, there are only one thing.

internal or external would be looking at the same thing from a "different" angles


---

[Eric Olson]

Internal punch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4w_62WX9Rk (1:21)

External punch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpWELFWecvM (0:14)

Can you see the difference?

EO

[Eric Olson]

Internal lock on elbow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaUP5oabjYo (07:31)

External lock on elbow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPrRMZWDqpM

EO

[Zenshiite]

The "internal" and "external" distinctions are largely about training methods. Ultimately the goal is the reach the same end, but the path is different on both sides.

That said, there are many that would say "internal" training is pretty much useless without "external" training as a basis to work from.

Ultimately the highest levels of practice in a Shaolin style or Taiji, Bagua or Xingyi should all be pretty much the same. Relaxed and focused breathing and power emission. As David Jamieson said before.

[SPJ]

you may lift weight/resistence to strengthen your muscle/tendon (external).

you may also do some posturing and stretching such as yi jin jin (internal).

you may do some cardio or aerobic (external).

you may also do some breathing exercise, qi gong, (internal)

qi gong, there are both soft and hard qi gong, (internal/external)

--

on and on,

[YouKnowWho]

Internal punch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4w_62WX9Rk (1:21)

External punch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpWELFWecvM (0:14)

Can you see the difference?

EO

You may assume that the "short Jin" is "internal" and the "long Jin" is external". The "short Jin" also exist in so called "external" style as well. The short Jin is more suitable for defense and the long Jin is more suitable for offense. In the following clip, you can see that no matter how much sort Jin that you can generate, you may not be able to use it to kill your opponent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9woHnhcNfY

[bawang]

Internal punch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4w_62WX9Rk (1:21)

External punch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpWELFWecvM (0:14)

Can you see the difference?

EO

there is no difference.

chinese subcultures all have their own codewords so unwanted outsiders will not understand. it looks like it served its purpose.

[taai gihk yahn]

You may assume that the "short Jin" is "internal" and the "long Jin" is external". The "short Jin" also exist in so called "external" style as well. The short Jin is more suitable for defense and the long Jin is more suitable for offense. In the following clip, you can see that no matter how much sort Jin that you can generate, you may not be able to use it to kill your opponent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9woHnhcNfY

here's how that gets developed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Soa7L6WAOx4&NR=1

[Lee Chiang Po]

It will be great if we can have internal clip and external clip side by side so we can clear see the difference. I'll suggest the following 4 pairs different clips for both "internal" and "external".

1. punch to the head.
2. kick to the chest.
3. lock on the elbow.
4. hip throw on the body.

If you do believe that there is difference between "internal" and "external", would you mind to share your clips here?

I think that the confusion, or lack of belief in the internal is simply because most people really don't understand what the difference is. Internal is simply focusing your own physical energies. Most forms of Martial Art will use a simple method of focusing physical power when punching. The exhausting of breath, usually by making a sound, will instantly tighten your abdomen, thus increasing your power just at the point of impact. This is using your chi, or qi. Just a simple and well known method of using it.
Your naval, or belly button, is where you began your existance. It is where you were attached to the umbilical cord. You grew outward from there, and everything radiates out from there. It is the center of your strength.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

It's really all the same. Internal methods will give you superhuman powers though. Just practice your "external" stuff slowly and with concentration. Next thing you know you'll be levitating objects and smashing stacks of bricks with little effort.

[RenDaHai]

any art when practiced correctly is "internal," by definition; relaxed power, focused breath, intention, correct structure and alignment working as a unit, creating power and rooting.
If it is forced, relying on brute strength improperly applied, it is not "external," it is simply wrong.
.

Yup. Thats sounds absolutely correct.

[Eric Olson]

The "internal" and "external" distinctions are largely about training methods. Ultimately the goal is the reach the same end, but the path is different on both sides.

How can you arrive at the same goal with a completely different path? It might make sense from a purely spacial perspective (ie all roads lead to Rome), but we're talking about paths through time as well. The human body changes in response to stimulus over time. If you apply a completely different stimulus then it will react differently. What's the catchphrase around here "specific training leads to specific results" or something like that?



That said, there are many that would say "internal" training is pretty much useless without "external" training as a basis to work from.

Personally, I think both are important but don't necessarily require each other. In other words...the goal should be to train refined power using as little strength as required, but with an eye on maintaining muscle mass and good cardio to stay well- rounded.



Ultimately the highest levels of practice in a Shaolin style or Taiji, Bagua or Xingyi should all be pretty much the same. Relaxed and focused breathing and power emission. As David Jamieson said before.

This assumes there aren't "tricks of the trade." Every art has them and you probably won't learn them unless you stick with a knowledgeable teacher for a long time.

EO

[SPJ]

yes, there are internal aspects/ oriented training

there are also external aspects/oriented training

both are necessary

both compliment each other.

nei wai jian xiu

both internal and external are studied and practiced.

--

:cool:

[bawang]

kung fu guys love to trash on internal hippies so they dont have to look in the mirror.

[David Jamieson]

Internal punch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4w_62WX9Rk (1:21)

External punch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpWELFWecvM (0:14)

Can you see the difference?

EO

there was nothing shown.

[Dragonzbane76]

I can't believe this argument is still going on!:eek:

[David Jamieson]

Believe it...because there it is! ^^^

[YouKnowWho]

I can't believe this argument is still going on!:eek:

This time we ask people if they can provide youtube clips for:

- "internal" roundhouse kick,
- "internal" hip throw,
- "internal" arm bar,
- ...

I do think if you can prove that you can do "internal" hip throw, you should write a book about it.

[TenTigers]

Yup. Thats sounds absolutely correct.
yeah, from now on, if any of you wanna know something, just ask me.
No more of this endless back and forth posting.

[TenTigers]

I can't believe this argument is still going on!:eek:
I know, right?
I'm tellin' ya, Just ask me. All these discussions are just nonesense.

[Dragonzbane76]

- "internal" roundhouse kick,
- "internal" hip throw,
- "internal" arm bar,

haha internal roundhouse? arm bar? lol

I would like to see that clip as well! but unfortunately it does not exist. :(


I didn't read back through this considering the fact that it's the same repeated stuff probably.

[Lee Chiang Po]

This time we ask people if they can provide youtube clips for:

- "internal" roundhouse kick,
- "internal" hip throw,
- "internal" arm bar,
- ...

I do think if you can prove that you can do "internal" hip throw, you should write a book about it.

Some people can not grasp a concept, so they come to such adverse conclusions. You remind me of a fellow I met once. I was leaving work at a chinese restraunt in New Orleans, headed home when I was short cutting down an ally, and I heard this sound of someone yelling. It was more of a loud chirp than a yell. I sort of peeked over the wood fence and there was this asian fellow standing there facing a bird cage. There was a canary or some such in the cage and the fellow was standing there real still and quite, and then he would suddenly make this loud chirp and sort of act like he was shooting a force from the fingers at the poor bird. I watched him for a while before saying anything, but eventually asked him what he was doing. He explained that he was trying to develop his chi to the point to where he could actually kill the little bird without touching it. I did not fully understand so I asked again and he explained again that he was trying to shoot the bird to death with chi that he was projecting out from the tips of his fingers. I asked him if he had ever been able to do it and he said no. I ask him how long he had been trying to do it and he said, about 25 years.
It was explained to me at the age of 10, and I had full grasp of it almost immediately. It is not difficult to understand if you are open to it, but as long as you keep a closed mind the concept can not mean much to you. Internal gung fu is nothing more than the ability to manipulate and focus your own energy, which is indeed internal. You can not project it beyond the fingertips. It remains internal. You can not move without energy. You just learn to focus this same energy into one focal point rather than having it flowing outward in every direction at once. You see the utube flicks where a fellow is standing with his feet 4 feet apart, both hands in play, all muscles flexed and the entire body rather stiff. His chi is flowing in all directions at one time and burning up rapidly. He has no control of it and more likely no grasp of the concept at all.

[TenTigers]

why torture a cute little birdie?
He should've practiced on spiders or something icky.
That's just wrong.

[Lucas]

thats like old samurai stories of masters incappacitating small birds with a kiai.

[SPJ]

there is a legend about yielding

if you may hold the sparrow or cute little birdie in your palm

you yield everytime the birdie tries to fly off so that it may not

--

there are both internal and external working in your palm

--

:cool:

[KC Elbows]

This time we ask people if they can provide youtube clips for:

- "internal" roundhouse kick,
- "internal" hip throw,
- "internal" arm bar,
- ...

I do think if you can prove that you can do "internal" hip throw, you should write a book about it.

I would say any throw, at its best, requires knowing the direction and extent of the opponent's motion, and utilizing the least effort to make that into an imbalance of the opponent, which is pretty much what everyone calls internal, ting jing, minimum effort maximum result.

The problem is when people assume it's only a component of internal styles.

The problem is when a lot of people doing external styles of kung fu don't seem to do any of it when any decent style from any other region of the world does.

The problem is when many people doing internal styles of kung fu don't seem to do it.

The problem is talking about techniques more than experiencing them.

The other problem is you people fail to take the interweb with its proper seriousness.:D

[YouKnowWho]

The problem is when many people doing internal styles of kung fu don't seem to do it.

- IMA guys don't do hip throw.
- EMA guys don't "rotate his Dien Tien" for the hip throw.

This is why this discussion may never go anywhere.

When the "internal" discussion go beyond the boundary, those IMA guys don't know how to address the issue (such as hip throw, roundhouse kick, ...). This is a good example that the concept "internal" has not been tested from all angles yet.

[David Jamieson]

thats like old samurai stories of masters incappacitating small birds with a kiai.

uh...that can be done actually...

just sayin...

[SPJ]

some said one may neuter a fly

---

:eek:

[Golden Arms]

YouKnowWho,

To me, "internal" is largely in part "connected" to the ground through your movements. An example of this in throwing would be carry oneself in such a way that ones balance and posture are not easily disrupted. Movements done in this way do not generally over-commit the balance of the person performing them, and allow in many cases, increased control on how the force of the opponent travels through the body and often back into them.

The measure of what one is capable of doing "internally" is really a measure of what each individual can do, not a broad definition that applies to all.

I consider this footage as an example of "internal" work relating to throwing and countering.

http://youtu.be/uFXbuszijCM

[Lucas]

uh...that can be done actually...

just sayin...

sure, i can see that....but have you ever seen a person knock a bird out with a shout? i havnt, but if someone could get that on film and proove it, that would be huge.

so until i can see proof of it being done, its one of those things that scientifically speaking is possible, yet humanly speaking isnt very probable.

[YouKnowWho]

YouKnowWho,

To me, "internal" is largely in part "connected" to the ground through your movements. An example of this in throwing would be carry oneself in such a way that ones balance and posture are not easily disrupted. Movements done in this way do not generally over-commit the balance of the person performing them, and allow in many cases, increased control on how the force of the opponent travels through the body and often back into them.

The measure of what one is capable of doing "internally" is really a measure of what each individual can do, not a broad definition that applies to all. Others may use different term such as core engine, snake engine, ...

I consider this footage as an example of "internal" work relating to throwing and countering.

http://youtu.be/uFXbuszijCM
I like your general view for this discussion. Someone once said that if you can't rotate your Dien Tien then you are not qualified to be called as a IMA guy.

IMO, there is only a right way of doing and wrong way of doing. There is no "internal" way of doing and "external" way of doing. If your

- hook punch is not as powerful as a boxer, or
- roundhouse kick is not as powerful as a MT guy, or
- hip throw is not as powerful as a SC guy, or
- shoulder lock is not as powerful as a eagle craw guy,

you are doing something wrong there.

If we can use the "right" way of doing thing, and "wrong" way of doing thing, we will never have to argue about the term "internal" any more.

[Golden Arms]

I like your general view for this discussion. Someone once said that if you can't rotate your Dien Tien then you are not qualified to be called as a IMA guy.

IMO, there is only a right way of doing and wrong way of doing. There is no "internal" way of doing and "external" way of doing. If your

- hook punch is not as powerful as a boxer, or
- roundhouse kick is not as powerful as a MT guy, or
- hip throw is not as powerful as a SC guy, or
- shoulder lock is not as powerful as a eagle craw guy,

you are doing something wrong there.

If we can use the "right" way of doing thing, and "wrong" way of doing thing, we will never have to argue about the term "internal" any more.

There is more than one right way I think, that is why not all boxers look the same for instance. I think internal is often just a way of describing one of those ways.

[KC Elbows]

We have to argue about the term internal, since we stopped being able to bag on USSD.

[bawang]

internal
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTA4OTkyNjg=.html

[Eric Olson]

I consider this footage as an example of "internal" work relating to throwing and countering.

http://youtu.be/uFXbuszijCM

That actually looks somewhat similar to the free-style push hands at my old Taiji school. You'll notice that Mifune mostly keeps a plumb-line to the ground. Even if he gets picked up he's straight up and down.

I don't think Taiji really does hip throws though. Not sure why not???

Also,one thing to note is that Taiji would not set up to throw but would set up to lock and injure. I think that is how Japanese Jujitsu probably was originally but remember that Judo is the sport derivation of Jujitsu meant not to injure.

Interesting how many arts all evolve apart and then find each other again.

EO

[YouKnowWho]

I don't think Taiji really does hip throws though. Not sure why not???

Some Taiji master said that to bend the head downward is against the Taiji principle. The funnest thing is if you throw a $100 bill in front of his feet, he will "bend".

Since the hip throw is the mother of all throws, it's a good testcase for people who believes that taiji is a throwing art and not a striking art.

[KC Elbows]

Some Taiji master said that to bend the head downward is against the Taiji principle. The funnest thing is if you throw a $100 bill in front of his feet, he will "bend".

Since the hip throw is the mother of all throws, it's a good testcase for people who believes that taiji is a throwing art and not a striking art.

Doesn't Wu style bend the head downward? Seems like I've seen some taiji that does.

[SPJ]

you do bend your back forward and downward

such as right before cross step single whip, xie xing dan bian

there are a lot throws in tai ji

--

:cool:

[YouKnowWho]

you do bend your back forward and downward

such as right before cross step single whip, xie xing dan bian

there are a lot throws in tai ji

--

:cool:

Not sure which Taiji move that you are talking about. Could you come up a youtube clip?

[YouKnowWho]

Taiji has no legs. Very few "leg moves" can be found in Taiji and that's the problem.

This guy had SC training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9H4sa2aGUc

[YouKnowWho]

I understand your frustration, although I think it has more to do with people mis-interpreting many of the moves along the lines of the first clip. Look at the difference a simple re-evaluation of application can make.

I think the main reason that Taiji guys don't like to use their legs because there are few single leg balance training in Taiji. Leg moves such as hook, break, sweep, scoop, cut, lift, twist, spring, sharpen, ... are all missing in Taiji.

[bawang]

chen style taijiquan has total of two sweeps. and theres two takedowns in that 108 longfist that nobody does. everything else is punching

the boxing techniques in tai chi is very beautiful but its not wrestling

[YouKnowWho]

The throwing "intend" such as

- touching head to the knee (for hip throw),
- lift leg straight up in the air (for leg lift),
- spin body to the maximum (for cracking throw),
- Twist upper body to one direction while twist lower body to the opposite direction (for foot sweep),

are not emphasised in the Taiji basic training.

[lkfmdc]

This will offend many, but everyone knows who I am by now

If your tai chi doesn't have sweeps, trips, throws, takedowns then you have defective tai chi, ie you learned it wrong or you are just short sighted

I am actually of the opinion Tai Chi is best understood as a wrestling art, not a striking one

[bawang]

wrestling is important but its not in tai chi period. people try to "extrapolate" from forms because they refuse to admit theres things missing

[lkfmdc]

wrestling is important but its not in tai chi period. people try to "extrapolate" from forms because they refuse to admit theres things missing

anything you expect to do in fighting is "extrapolated" from forms practice, it's why really you can dump forms entirely

what is push hands? really? listening, redirecting, yielding, pulling, pushing, these are wrestling skills...

[bawang]

anything you expect to do in fighting is "extrapolated" from forms practice, it's why really you can dump forms entirely


when white people stop eating mashed potatoes i will stop doing forms

[lkfmdc]

- touching head to the knee (for hip throw),



some advocate "leg blocking" so any turn with a bow stance is this throw... we have this in Lama and CLF




- lift leg straight up in the air (for leg lift),



any kick is a sweep, is a throw, etc... some tai chi has been "made dumb" but the movements are in some forms



- spin body to the maximum (for cracking throw),



again, some traditions have, others are watered down




are not emphasised in the Taiji basic training.



not WHAT, but HOW

most practical fighting skill is not emphasised in current TCMA practice

[lkfmdc]

when white people stop eating mashed potatoes i will stop doing forms

forms and mashed patatoes both make you slow and serve little purpse

I don't do either

[bawang]

tai chi guys shouldnt worry about wrestling when most cant even make a proper fist. not joking. they make an o with the hand.


forms and mashed patatoes both make you slow and serve little purpse

I don't do either

if people admit the truth there is purpose. the form is a dance.

[YouKnowWho]

you learned it wrong ...
My teacher always love to say:

- It's not your problem.
- It's not your teacher's problem.
- It's not even your teacher's teacher's problem.
- It could be the style founder's problem.

[lkfmdc]

My teacher always love to say:

- It's not your problem.
- It's not your teacher's problem.
- It's not even your teacher's teacher's problem.
- It could be the style founder's problem.

personally, I have seen stuff that started out fine, get worse over time

NOT just dumb white people, plenty of dumb Chinese people (and Malaysians, and dumb Japanese, dumb Koreans, etc etc)

[YouKnowWho]

personally, I have seen stuff that started out fine, get worse over time.

That's one possibility. You may be more optimistic than I do. I can only judge a style from the forms and not from the drills that style has. The drills may come from "cross training".

[taai gihk yahn]

tai chi guys shouldnt worry about wrestling when most cant even make a proper fist. not joking. they make an o with the hand..

the taiji form I learned supposedly came from Yang Lu Chan before he taught the weekend-warrior nobility at the Imperial Court;

when we make a fist, the hand is held closed, like a normal fist - there is no "o";

Mandarin chic nobility liked to keep their fingernails long...

[lkfmdc]

That's one possibility. You may be more optimistic than I do. I can only judge a style from the forms and not from the drills that style has. The drills may come from "cross training".

You can always ask a few questions

1) you originally from mainland?
2) was your teaching in army or police?
3) does your school compete in anything like lei tai, shuai jiao, sanshou, etc
4) your guan have sand bags or just pretty flags??

Too many schools are removed from the "old days" when people actually fought. 50 years in hong kong doing forms in a closet or 25 years in US doing forms only tournaments

[bawang]

the taiji form I learned supposedly came from Yang Lu Chan before he taught the weekend-warrior nobility at the Imperial Court;

when we make a fist, the hand is held closed, like a normal fist - there is no "o";

Mandarin chic nobility liked to keep their fingernails long...

you know whats funny even when theres obvious punching and the name of the technique is punching people find all kinds of secret throws and awkward complicated finger qin na.

[lkfmdc]

the taiji form I learned supposedly came from Yang Lu Chan before he taught the weekend-warrior nobility at the Imperial Court;

when we make a fist, the hand is held closed, like a normal fist - there is no "o";

Mandarin chic nobility liked to keep their fingernails long...

people do silly stuff in the name of "tradition" as opposed to function

many times they never even question it

how did CTS do Chaap Choih :D

[bawang]

i think the best would be if modern fighting combined with tradition. the thais modernized their boxing but they still do the ritual dance and traditional music.

[lkfmdc]

you know whats funny even when theres obvious punching and the name of the technique is punching people find all kinds of secret throws and awkward complicated finger qin na.

if your teacher says, "real fight two guys hit eachother" and you are slow and weak, you will say "I always lose"

but if you believe in secret application and chi power and dim mak you say "I have these secrets and I can beat the strong guy because all he has is muscles"

Then real world gets you like surprise butt sex

[lkfmdc]

i think the best would be if modern fighting combined with tradition. the thais modernized their boxing but they still do the ritual dance and traditional music.

In thailand you have crazies in the jungle doing "ancient temple boxing" which is fantasy fu... can't stop crazy people

[bawang]

all im asking is after the sanda match, maybe do some drumming, blow some trumpets some dance, u know just to be more traditional. in china you either do wushu or sanda, no one think of them as the same thing.

chinese people like the myth of kung fu and movies, but when faced with real tradition and culture they think of it as backward dirty and primitive and weird.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvOPyOkn7cc&feature=related

this is pretty traditional but also fighting

[taai gihk yahn]

you know whats funny even when theres obvious punching and the name of the technique is punching people find all kinds of secret throws and awkward complicated finger qin na.

as far as my understanding of the form, there are several movements that can be considered as throws:

"shoulder stroke" into "white crane spreads wings" is sweep / throw

"monkey retreats" is a shoulder throw of someone who is behind you

"fan through back" into "turn body" is a hip throw

the "fan teuih" (dividing kick) after the first "high pat on horse" can be considered as a sweep combination;

the "single whip" into "snake creeps down" is a "drag down" move

these are not wild stretches of the imagination, they are all perfectly reasonable, at least based on the form i learned, which is different from Yang standardized;

of course, it doesn't matter worth spit if these moves r in a form if one doesn't practice them in vivo, so to speak...but it just points to that taiji "has" this stuff;

and I agree that push-hands is watered down clinch work (or, working on entry into a clinch)

[bawang]

in long fist they are all punches except crane spread wings, thats a real sweep. written things from 1500 to 1920 all had same applications and moves. even yang style taichi. its not that important, but i just want to be honest to myself.

i remember a old book explaining needle in the sea. "needle stabs" then it hit me, its a variation of cannon in the sea, because yangluchan did hong quan. i couldnt figure out the move for years,it was so obvious. if tai chi teachers be honest and dont lie, thigns would be so easy and simple.

[YouKnowWho]

i just want to be honest to myself.

When my MT friend showed me his "flying knee", I said it was just a longfist "jumping kick" without kicking the leg out. My comment made him mad big time. :D

[SPJ]

Not sure which Taiji move that you are talking about. Could you come up a youtube clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBT8oAhcKa0&feature=related

at 1:54 min mark.

:)

[lkfmdc]

When my MT friend showed me his "flying knee", I said it was just a longfist "jumping kick" without kicking the leg out. My comment made him mad big time. :D

a guy comes to train with me, he has done Thai boxing. I say to him "you know, in 5000 years, no one in China learned how to use knees or elbows to fight"

So he says to me "really?"

and I say "OF COURSE NOT, DON'T BE STUPID, you think in 5000 years no one ever figured out to use the elbow or knee in a fight" and I smacked him in the back of the head

TRUE STORY

[Dragonzbane76]

what is push hands? really? listening, redirecting, yielding, pulling, pushing, these are wrestling skills...

OMG someone else figured out my secret. :D

In my short time on this mud ball i've trained with other "styles" and during those times at some point someone would come out and say, " we have crane dives into water tech." or "serpent falls from tree" they would go on to demonstrate. Funny thing was I had seen the same moves hundreds of times from wrestling in HS. exam. "arm drag, grapevine, wizzer, etc. " all they did was give it a fansy name and not practice it enough and hold it in reverence because some master somewhere had performed it. :p

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBT8oAhcKa0&feature=related

at 1:54 min mark.

:)

Still don't see any "bend your back forward and downward". :confused:

[Eric Olson]

anything you expect to do in fighting is "extrapolated" from forms practice, it's why really you can dump forms entirely

what is push hands? really? listening, redirecting, yielding, pulling, pushing, these are wrestling skills...

I think you are fundamentally correct but Taiji people don't like to use the term "wrestling" because it implies a test of strength rather than skill.

EO

[Eric Olson]

Some Taiji master said that to bend the head downward is against the Taiji principle. The funnest thing is if you throw a $100 bill in front of his feet, he will "bend".

That's not exactly correct. True, you must try to stay "straight up and down" but it's less about your physical shape and more about the internal connection to the ground.



Since the hip throw is the mother of all throws, it's a good testcase for people who believes that taiji is a throwing art and not a striking art.

Taiji has Ti Da Shuai Na just like all the other CMAs.

I can't remember when I've ever seen a hip throw Taiji so I'm guessing it's not there. Not sure why it violates principles though. Would you agree that it's hard to hip throw someone that's on balance?

[SPJ]

Still don't see any "bend your back forward and downward". :confused:

yes. modern version of cross step single whip removed the bending back forward

but you traced the posture to earlier version especially chen or pre yang, you see it.

this is actually very common posture across many styles

in ba ji it is called tong bei shi with some variations

--

there are several throw methods in that posture

let me use needle at bottom sea or hai di zhen in yang cheng fu tai chi then.

http://dongfangtaiji.5u.com/photo3.html

:)

[SPJ]

actually the 8 jin

peng lu ji an --

they all can be used to throw

:cool:

[SPJ]

one side note

yang cheng fu postures are actually modified in 1930's (they are called yang cheng fu large frame or da jia)

they are more expansive or centralized for exercise or health purpose

the actual postures would be smaller or more compact

--

all the modern wushu yang forms are based on yang cheng fu da jia.

or further modified.

--

[YouKnowWho]

Would you agree that it's hard to hip throw someone that's on balance?
The hip throw has nothing to do with your opponent's balance but has to do with his force direction. If your opponent sinks down and collapse his body sturcture, it will be difficult to apply a hip throw on him. When that happen, you have to use combo that borrow his sinking force and "help" him to go down. Here is an example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXFLIlgvI8

The principle of "borrowing force" is always helping your opponent to do whatever that he wants to do and never against his will. If your opponent wants to

- sink, you help him to sink more.
- raise, you help him to raise more.
- move back, you help him to move back more.
- move forward, you help him to move forward more.
- ...

If your opponent don't want to move, you force him to move, you then borrow his force after that - give first and take later.

[YiQuanOne]

I have read thru this entire post, and it seems only one person is on an internal path or can see the difference, that is sad to see. Well at least I can see where everyone is in their journey.

I would suggest most people re-evaluated their path, most everone sounds like they are on the external path. You can not find the internal through the external. It is like trying to evaluate a new food when you have not emptied your mouth of the old food.

Once you find the internal you can add the external because now you have both and can now choose what you want to use or do to get the result you want.


The winner of the knowelge trivia game is Eric Olson.

Well done. If you can't see the difference in the videos, you have no idea, it is clear as day.

[lkfmdc]

The winner of the knowelge trivia game is Eric Olson.



http://www.motivationalmine.com/wp-content/uploads/tdomf/6122/epic%20fail.jpg

[瓜娃子]

winner of too many posts with too little content is..

David Ross

[lkfmdc]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_s6Ofh7u9lF0/R2sh1DzWtZI/AAAAAAAAAlI/kyiG5HRP1jo/s400/retard.internet.jpg

[瓜娃子]

Your avatar is of an ape. You look like even more of a fool than normal.

[Ray Pina]

It will be great if we can have internal clip and external clip side by side so we can clear see the difference. I'll suggest the following 4 pairs different clips for both "internal" and "external".

1. punch to the head.
2. kick to the chest.
3. lock on the elbow.
4. hip throw on the body.

If you do believe that there is difference between "internal" and "external", would you mind to share your clips here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA6sLOQpO4w

at 46 seconds in. That is an internal strike. Tai Ji opening move

at 1:05 internal-ish intercept, wedging entry... lost it/sloppy then external striking

1:30 definitely internal uplifting. E-Chuan 100%

2:42 to 3:05 pure external

3:22 is a beautiful display of back-foot-driven, intercept-and-stick-and-follow, knock someone down and spin them power. An example of skill if I saw so myself.

[GeneChing]

Internal, External, & Hybrids
Classifying Kung Fu 2.0
By Williy Pang

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/4575_KFM2019-Summer-Cover.jpg
SUMMER 2019 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1487)

[Yoshiyahu]

If you do a thousand punches a day you have internal power.
Break it down 500 punches do it slow with no power but focus on correct structure and correct form
then do 500 Hundred after that against a wall bag or Mook Yan Jong with power.

Then you will have EXTERNAL power.

Throw a punch with no formal training is purely external.

[SteveLau]

If you do a thousand punches a day you have internal power...


Yoshiyahu, I largely agree with your words.

Today many schools of style have internal and external training. To quote a comment by an sport instructor, that I came across on the web, "an athlete cannot reach his full athletic potential without mastering breathing skill first." CMA has similar view in that "a martial artist without internal conditioning will not reach the advanced level."




Regards,

KC
Hong Kong