Do you turn on your toe or on your heel?

[YouKnowWho]

When you have a horse stance facing north, if you want to turn into a left side bow-arrow stance to the west, do you turn your right foot on your toe (ball of your foot) or do you turn your right foot on your heel?

It looks to me that this longfist guy turns on his toe at 0.21, 0.34, 0.45, and 1.10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS2TEeO_zfo&feature=related

It' clear to see that this Lohan guy turns on his toe at 0.24.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRPOiHl18mA

It' also clear to see that this Tongbei guy turns on his toe at 0.29.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXNByYRPmbk

[jo]

Whatever works for YOU.

-jo

[PalmStriker]

Use ball of foot for all turns, personally, (including 360 degree) try not to incorporate anything that crimps flow/movement.

[David Jamieson]

whole foot like you're crushing grapes.

[Scott R. Brown]

It is much easier to sweep a turning foot while it is pivoting on its heel.

[SPJ]

yes. in ba ji, we turn on front sole, it is grinding/turning step or nian zhuan.

when we land our heels, there is some stomping, so it is called grinding stomp or nian zhen.

of course, there is also turning of the waist etc etc.

however, when I practice yang tai chi, we turn on heels more. due to shifting weight in a different way.

--

whatever whenever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZQgjXvwqhw

:)

[-N-]

whatever whenever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZQgjXvwqhw

:)

Hey, you can't post a text only Shakira video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsp_8Lm1eSk

[Darthlawyer]

If I am turning to strike forward (west in your description), I would turn closer to on the heel. I think the "Grape smashing" description would be pretty accurate. You don't generate as much power coming from your toes.

[kristcaldwell]

this is really a style thing. jing wu long fist routines turn on the toe, whereas BSL turns on the heel.
i believe that turning on the toe is more natural and therefore it's easier to maintain one's balance at an early stage of training with this technique. turning on the heel allows one to maintain the same distance while throwing a strike, while rotating on the toe actually makes one lose ground (and possibly power).

so the answer?...it really depends on the style.

[SPJ]

Hey, you can't post a text only Shakira video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsp_8Lm1eSk

yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Jj1zQWdGWc&feature=related

:cool:

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEsxLZViA6c

:cool:

[YouKnowWho]

It is much easier to sweep a turning foot while it is pivoting on its heel.
This is one of my concerns too. For those of you who prefer to turn on the heel,

- Do you get the "spring (take off running)" feeling from it?
- Can you get a smooth transation into a back leg kick?
- Do you get "stuck" feeling instead of "mobility" feeling?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74LHTEQ3EZY

[-N-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEsxLZViA6c

:cool:

I mean't if you're going to post Shakira, let's see some skin. Not just lyrics :D

[bawang]

if u like being taken down 5 seconds into fight turn on the toe

[YouKnowWho]

if u like being taken down 5 seconds into fight turn on the toe
What will be the reason? In combat, your feet should feel like to walk on a layer of thin ice on the froze lake.

[bawang]

speak english

pls

[ginosifu]

Know matter what you may feel, pivoting on the front ball of your foot is not good.
This is because of how the foot is engineered. Balance will be lost if you pick your heel off the ground. Your Long Quan or Bubbling Wells (The arch area of the bottom of your foot) must stay connected to the earth.

When pivoting on my heel and letting my toes turn out, my toes actually never leave the ground (they just sorta slide over) and thus when an attack is made to the foot or leg I can quickly ROOT into my stance.

Energy wise... You can not drive off off your heel if is up in the air. Chinese Kung Fu derives it's power by driving off the heel. Granted transitional techniques use stances that touch the ball or toes. These are only temporary during curtain techniques that you are not Engaged yet.

I fought Shuai Chiao for many years and rarely was I thrown. Balance, rooting and power come from the stance.

ginosifu

[Ben Gash]

This is one of the big problems with a lot of TCMA schools. Balance is dynamic, not static. If your weight is on your heel you are only balanced in one direction, the slightest angle and your balance is destroyed, and you can't correct it without lifting your weight. This is why Bawang's statement is comical, it's pathetically easy to take down someone who's got their weight on their heels as they're primed to fall backwards and can't really defend.
In CLF power is generated by moving the heel to drive the waist, so you have to pivot on the ball of the foot. However, the other fallacy is that having your weight on the balls of your feet means being on tiptoes and off balance. I always have my weight on the balls of my feet, but any heel lift is imperceptible. I can plant my foot if needed, and I can move it effortlessly.

[JamesC]

Toes.


Know matter what you may feel, pivoting on the front ball of your foot is not good.


I think that is a hilarious statement.


This is because of how the foot is engineered. Balance will be lost if you pick your heel off the ground. Your Long Quan or Bubbling Wells (The arch area of the bottom of your foot) must stay connected to the earth.


Are you serious about this? What do you suppose our ankles are for, then? Our achilles tendon?

The only time pushing off your heels makes sense is when you are doing squats(Because you are directing your energy straight up). If you want to direct any of that energy forward, you use transfer to the ball of your foot.

Sprinters don't run on their heels because it is a waste of energy. You push forward. You don't push up. The same with a boxer/thai boxer. If you push from your heels you are essentially fighting against gravity more.

Then, again, it may depend on what you're trying to accomplish at the time.

[TenTigers]

In our Hung Kuen,
beginners are taught to turn on their heels to connect with the earth and root,
later, they turn on the young quan,
still later, they turn on young quan and slam the heel into the earth.

[JamesC]

In our Hung Kuen,
beginners are taught to turn on their heels to connect with the earth and root,
later, they turn on the young quan,
still later, they turn on young quan and slam the heel into the earth.

Now THAT I do like!

As a barefoot runner, that is the exact energy transfer that you have to use for power, lightness(agility, if you will), and ease of movement.

[SavvySavage]

Toes.



I think that is a hilarious statement.



Are you serious about this? What do you suppose our ankles are for, then? Our achilles tendon?

The only time pushing off your heels makes sense is when you are doing squats(Because you are directing your energy straight up). If you want to direct any of that energy forward, you use transfer to the ball of your foot.

Sprinters don't run on their heels because it is a waste of energy. You push forward. You don't push up. The same with a boxer/thai boxer. If you push from your heels you are essentially fighting against gravity more.

Then, again, it may depend on what you're trying to accomplish at the time.

Judo guys turn on the balls of their feet when throwing I believe. Shuai jiao guys spin on the heel when throwing. I believe you are more connected to your hips when spinning on the heel. People weren't meant to walk on their heels or balance on them. But shifting weight onto them when throwing is a different story.

Right this second I'm trying them both while typing this. I have more whole body push off my heels. It also feels like the spinning on the ball of the foot puts more force into my knees which could lead to a knee injury if done wrong. When spinning on the heel the force is more evenly transfered into my knees and more importantly into my hips.

I think it's up to individuals to experiment on their own and find what works best for themselves like I've just done. And I also think context is important. You can't have one general rule. For striking I don't like to strike while being on my heels. Same for running and jumping. When squatting my weight naturally falls onto my heels. When doing the spinning low to the ground sweeps I prefer spinning on the balls of my feet.

[Scott R. Brown]

Michael Jackson turned on HIS heels!!!!!

Nuf said you perverts!!!!!!:p

[ginosifu]

This is one of the big problems with a lot of TCMA schools. Balance is dynamic, not static. If your weight is on your heel you are only balanced in one direction, the slightest angle and your balance is destroyed, and you can't correct it without lifting your weight. This is why Bawang's statement is comical, it's pathetically easy to take down someone who's got their weight on their heels as they're primed to fall backwards and can't really defend.
In CLF power is generated by moving the heel to drive the waist, so you have to pivot on the ball of the foot. However, the other fallacy is that having your weight on the balls of your feet means being on tiptoes and off balance. I always have my weight on the balls of my feet, but any heel lift is imperceptible. I can plant my foot if needed, and I can move it effortlessly.

Ben Gash, you are correct in saying that balance is dynamic, however your generating power from the waist and not from the heels. Anyone during active movements and are engaging with another may be able to stay balanced by shifting your weight, pivoting your toes, sliding your heels. I was always taught to generate power from the heels.


I think that is a hilarious statement.

Are you serious about this? What do you suppose our ankles are for, then? Our achilles tendon?

The only time pushing off your heels makes sense is when you are doing squats(Because you are directing your energy straight up). If you want to direct any of that energy forward, you use transfer to the ball of your foot.

Sprinters don't run on their heels because it is a waste of energy. You push forward. You don't push up. The same with a boxer/thai boxer. If you push from your heels you are essentially fighting against gravity more.

Then, again, it may depend on what you're trying to accomplish at the time.

JamesC, think of it this way: If you would ever have to push car that died to the side of the road, would you not dig in your heel s drive off of so you have more power when you push? The Tibia and Fibula bones finish and are connected near the HEEL! When you lift your heel up and go on the ball of the foot, you limit the amount of power you cab generate from your legs and body as a whole. This has nothing to do with running. Boxers and other MA style may use ways to generate power like twisting the waist and going up on the ball of the foot. They are still generating power, but from a different way.

ginosifu

[Lucas]

I have and will turn on both. For the op scenario if shift from a horse into a bow and arrow I use my whole foot. Its a split second. I picture grinding the crushed spirit of my enemies :p

[Lucas]

I was always taught to generate power from the heels.




ginosifu

i was also originally taught to use my heels from my first instructor and did that for a long time. and still do in many cases i personally ended up gradually using the center of my foot for a lot of shifting, but i think that is just how i developed. i just did a bunch of different shifting and found that much of the time there is still an emphasis on my heel. i never crushed grapes so i dont know if that analogy applies but its like im grinding out a fire with my foot sometimes.

[bawang]

traditionally it was done with the heel/ center of foot period. light armor is already 20 pounds. heavy infantry is over 100 pounds of armor and weapons.
thsi is especially stressed in southern styles because they have origins in navy and marines.

for fighting stances that do turn on the ball of the foot it is very subtle

[JamesC]

JamesC, think of it this way: If you would ever have to push car that died to the side of the road, would you not dig in your heel s drive off of so you have more power when you push? The Tibia and Fibula bones finish and are connected near the HEEL! When you lift your heel up and go on the ball of the foot, you limit the amount of power you cab generate from your legs and body as a whole. This has nothing to do with running. Boxers and other MA style may use ways to generate power like twisting the waist and going up on the ball of the foot. They are still generating power, but from a different way.

ginosifu

Sure, if i'm pushing backwards, I would. If I am pushing the car forward, with my body facing forward, it is almost impossible to push it using my heels. I've pushed a lot of cars in my day(for training exercises it is a killer) and if you are facing forward, you have to use the balls of your feet. Your body simply won't allow heels unless pushing with your back to the car.


When you lift your heel up and go on the ball of the foot, you limit the amount of power you cab generate from your legs and body as a whole.

I agree with this. That isn't my issue. My issue is transferring that power to a target, specifically if they are in front of you.

For instance, when I do squats, I do a full squat. This means my thighs go past parallel and my hamstrings take over. You push up with your heels to generate the most power out of that hole. If you try it with the balls of your feet you're gonna hurt yourself.

Now, for example sake only, let's say i'm doing a FRONT squat and I want to throw the weight i'm using forward, and away from my body. I'm going to come up out of that hole and then onto my toes in order to transfer that energy in a forward direction most efficiently.

Transferring all that energy from my body into a forward direction is my biggest concern here.

Btw, i'm not trying to say i'm right and you're wrong. I'm just saying that this is what makes the most sense to me. I'd hate for this to turn into a ****ing contest.

[JamesC]

Ginosifu,

I've just reread your post and I had a question to go along with my last response.

Perhaps it has something to do with where we are taught our power generation comes from?

In your post above you said that you generate your power from the waist.

I, however, have always been taught that power comes from the feet first and is transferred to the waist and out to the arms. Waist is obviously a very big factor because without using your hips you hit/kick like a girl. But, i've always been taught that your power comes from the legs primarily. This could be why i'm more inclined to "push" with the balls of my feet instead of "anchor" with the heels for maximal waist rotation?

Perhaps a dan tian correlation here?

[bawang]

newer chinese martial arts turn on the heel because manchus use chinese as skirmishers/human shield. chinese were forbidden to wear armor. whereas in earlier times it is not rare for ming dynasty elite shock troops to wear over 100 pounds of equipment.

[SanHeChuan]

I'd turn on the heel to shift from horse to front. No part of my foot leaves the ground. It took a while to be able to do it smoothly, which probably turns alot of people off.

For those that would turn on the ball, how do you keep your back heel from moving further away from your target? You could lose a several inches of reach like that?

Stand in a front stance with your fist touching the wall, perfect stance, perfect posture. Shift into a horse stance, now shifting back into a front stance on the balls of your feet, can you still touch the wall? Are you leaning more than you did before? Try shifting back and forth several times, how far away from the wall are you now?

[Ben Gash]

You don't. It increases the range of hip rotation, which has a positive effect on reach anyway.

[YouKnowWho]

Shuai jiao guys spin on the heel when throwing.
SC guys also spin on the ball of the foot. The reason is you can "hop" to adjust distance if needed. Please reference to the horizontal line (represent the ground) and foot position on all 3 pictures.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1379/heelup1.jpg
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9499/heelup2.jpg
http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/3053/heelup4.jpg

This principle in SC is called "支(Zhi) - support" that you support both your and your opponent's body weight on your "toes" for very short amount of time.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8125/heelup5.jpg

[Lucas]

which makes sense in the throw, more dynamic control that way.

[Ben Gash]

I was always taught to generate power from the heels.


While this may make perfect sense to you, it's biomechanically impossible to generate power from the heels. The heel is a bone, and a fairly isolated one (I think it only has one ligament attachment). Power in TCMA (indeed pretty much all MA) is derived from the Kua (core). All sayings about power from the floor etc are really about engaging your quads and glutes to power movements.
If driving off the heels was the best way to generate explosive power then olympic sprinters would do it.

[JamesC]

which makes sense in the throw, more dynamic control that way.

Why would you not want dynamic control in your punches and kicks too? Not to mention your footwork for entering, exiting, etc.?

[YouKnowWho]

For those that would turn on the ball, how do you keep your back heel from moving further away from your target? You could lose a several inches of reach like that?
In the past 2 days, I have tried to turn on my heel for at least a 100 times. everytime I have the feeling that my foot was "stucked" on the ground as if somone is pulling on my leg back. It's not a good feeling at all. Also I don't know how to generate power from my heel because I cannot "spring" like an olympic sprinter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74LHTEQ3EZY

Also the baseball preacher doesn't generate power from heel either.

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/465/throwbaseball.jpg

You don't move your hell back. You just re-adjust the direction of your foot. In the following 3 short clips, we can see the turning on the toes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Q4J9HPIvs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9heeLEeir4c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqTA0M4jTdw

[JamesC]

If driving off the heels was the best way to generate explosive power then olympic sprinters would do it.

Exactly. :D

[Darthlawyer]

While this may make perfect sense to you, it's biomechanically impossible to generate power from the heels. The heel is a bone, and a fairly isolated one (I think it only has one ligament attachment). Power in TCMA (indeed pretty much all MA) is derived from the Kua (core). All sayings about power from the floor etc are really about engaging your quads and glutes to power movements.
If driving off the heels was the best way to generate explosive power then olympic sprinters would do it.
Olympic sprinters don't start off of a flat surface. They start from a block that is at an angle to the direction that they want to go. Additionally, power and speed are different animals. The heel and center of the foot are more stable and allow you to generate more power from your core, rather than from your legs. I'd say that they push from both their heels, then rock forward and push from their toes as well. When you only worry about moving in one direction, you can do that sort of thing.

[bawang]

If driving off the heels was the best way to generate explosive power then olympic sprinters would do it.

mma fighters do it

[Ben Gash]

Olympic sprinters don't start off of a flat surface. They start from a block that is at an angle to the direction that they want to go. Additionally, power and speed are different animals. The heel and center of the foot are more stable and allow you to generate more power from your core, rather than from your legs.

SO much wrong with that. So what exactly are they doing for the other 98 metres????
Pushing off the heel pretty much exclusively uses your quads, the ball of the foot activates your posterior chain (hamstrings, glutes, lower back) AS WELL as your quads. Which do you think generates more power from your core?
Power and speed are indeed different animals, but power and acceleration are the same, which is why we're discussing sprinters.

[Ben Gash]

mma fighters do it

What MMA Gyms have you been training at????????

[bawang]

mma fighters fight flat footed mang
everybody kno dis

[Ben Gash]

mma fighters fight flat footed mang
Most don't. Again, like I said, having your weight on the balls of you feet does not mean being on tiptoes. Your heel can still be down with the weight on the ball.

[bawang]

if u meant that yeah mang u r rite. as long as u dont pivot all the way up u b fine

[ginosifu]

Power is generated from the ground by driving from the heel and also from the arch (Long Quan or sole of the foot). (Sorry JamesC but I have pushed cars also and I always have dug my heels in pushing forward). As the power comes up from the ground it is directed by the waist to desired strike (fist head foot etc etc).

When you lift your heel up and pivot on the ball you are now using only torquing of waist (Ben Gash stated in CLF they lift the heel and pivot on the ball). This type of power uses more speed and whipping than a connection to the ground.

Your analogy of the runner is comparing apples to oranges. It does not make sense, runners are not hitting anyone.

Try this example: Lift up on both of balls of your feet and try and hit something... you will find your self knocked or pushed back. This is because there is no connection to the earth.

Now connect one of your feet firmly by placing the whole foot on the ground. Now go up on just one ball and swing at something. You find that your balance is a bit better but this type of hit needs speed for it to be effective (This is where waist whipping power comes in).

Now flatten out both you feet and hit something, now you will find you are fully balanced and if you keep your elbow in front of your body, you can actually drive from your leg (Heel) and hit with your leg muscles (leg muscles are bigger and stronger than arm muscles).

I am not saying that raising up on the ball and using waist pivoting power does not work. It is different way to create power, I just do not agree with it.

ginosifu

[Ben Gash]

When you lift your heel up and pivot on the ball you are now using only torquing of waist (Ben Gash stated in CLF they lift the heel and pivot on the ball). This type of power uses more speed and whipping than a connection to the ground.


WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG
I also never said anything about lifting the heel.

[ginosifu]

Ben Gash:

I think that you are talking about 2 different ways to generate power. Mine, I drive with my foot flat on the ground with the emphasis pushing off the heel and arch area of my foot ( I will change my heel terminology for you guys). As the energy is directed up thru my legs (gluts and hams as you stated), I can direct the power to my strike with my waist. Where do you see that as wrong? It is different than the way you create power, but that's only what it is... a different way to generate power.

ginosifu

[ginosifu]

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG
I also never said anything about lifting the heel.

when you pivot on the ball of your foot does the heel slide around? Maybe not pick it up in the literal sense but it moves around yes?

ginosifu

[Northwind]

I pivot on the heel 95% of the time.

[JamesC]

Power is generated from the ground by driving from the heel and also from the arch (Long Quan or sole of the foot). (Sorry JamesC but I have pushed cars also and I always have dug my heels in pushing forward). As the power comes up from the ground it is directed by the waist to desired strike (fist head foot etc etc).

That is almost physically impossible, sorry. Unless of course you aren't pushing very hard and are pushing very slowly. Or you are wearing shoes that have a large padded heel on them.


When you lift your heel up and pivot on the ball you are now using only torquing of waist (Ben Gash stated in CLF they lift the heel and pivot on the ball). This type of power uses more speed and whipping than a connection to the ground.

That simply isn't true. As Mr. Gash stated previously, when you do use the ball of your foot you engage your entire posterior chain. The only time you can engage your posterior chain with your weight on your heels is after your thighs have passed parallel in a deep squat.


Your analogy of the runner is comparing apples to oranges. It does not make sense, runners are not hitting anyone.

Of course it makes sense. We aren't talking about doing squats or lifting something from the ground. We're talking about transferring all that energy forward, in much the same way as a runner. Again, Mr. Gash provided a similar analogy because it makes sense biomechanically. If it didn't work it wouldn't be used by San Shou, Muay Thai, and Boxing. Arguably the best striking arts in the world.


Try this example: Lift up on both of balls of your feet and try and hit something... you will find your self knocked or pushed back. This is because there is no connection to the earth.

I've done it plenty of times. The only reason you would be knocked back is if you are on the tips of your toes, and not on the balls of your feet. Do you think we're talking about prancing around like we're doing ballet? We're talking about engaging our body's built in springing mechanism. Yes, the same one that we use to run. The same one that evolution has allowed us to use for running after food and away from those that want to make us their food.


Now connect one of your feet firmly by placing the whole foot on the ground. Now go up on just one ball and swing at something. You find that your balance is a bit better but this type of hit needs speed for it to be effective (This is where waist whipping power comes in).

Again, you must think that we are prancing around or something. You can have both feet flat on the ground while still pivoting on the ball of your foot.


Now flatten out both you feet and hit something, now you will find you are fully balanced and if you keep your elbow in front of your body, you can actually drive from your leg (Heel) and hit with your leg muscles (leg muscles are bigger and stronger than arm muscles).

I'm not sure if you're intending to be condescending here or not, but i'll just assume you aren't for now.

I'm well aware of the way in which the body works. Unfortunately, you CAN'T drive from your heel in a forward direction as effectively as you can if you transfer that force through the ball of the foot. If we could we wouldn't have had to evolve with ankles and calves.


I am not saying that raising up on the ball and using waist pivoting power does not work. It is different way to create power, I just do not agree with it.

ginosifu

Well good. Because it does indeed work.

[Ben Gash]

Ben Gash:

I think that you are talking about 2 different ways to generate power. Mine, I drive with my foot flat on the ground with the emphasis pushing off the heel and arch area of my foot ( I will change my heel terminology for you guys). As the energy is directed up thru my legs (gluts and hams as you stated), I can direct the power to my strike with my waist. Where do you see that as wrong? It is different than the way you create power, but that's only what it is... a different way to generate power.

ginosifu
It's EXACTLY THE SAME way to generate power, as I said earlier it's true of most TCMA. What's wrong with using your heels is it's not particularly efficient, as it's not the way your body's meant to work. The biomechanical efficiency of the more naturalistic ball of foot motion is superior for speed, fluency and power genration.
Also, if your weight is on your heels then you are less mobile and twice as likely to be knocked down or taken down.

[SanHeChuan]

We are talking about the transition from Horse stance to Front stance.

Horse to Front Stance Transition* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIlHGWsXT3M&playnext=1&list=PL778A95CDADD7D4CE)

If we are talking about punching from a narrower sanda fighting stance* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYj_MFMnsUw&feature=related)then you can and should pivot on the toes.

*Neither video exactly the way I would do it.

[Ben Gash]

See, that first one just looks weak and unbalanced to me.

[ShaolinDan]

When you have a horse stance facing north, if you want to turn into a left side bow-arrow stance to the west, do you turn your right foot on your toe (ball of your foot) or do you turn your right foot on your heel?



Long Thread. Just skimmed it. Been busy here. :)

Right foot turns on ball, left foot on heel. This way feet are on two different 'tracks' in bow stance.

For combat we usually turn on ball of foot, though in many situations (the above included) the ideal is to shift foot without any of it leaving ground (this I know was mentioned already)...much easier on some surfaces than others.

[SanHeChuan]

So this is better? Tan Tui (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2da_YijN9U&feature=related)

[JamesC]

I agree with Mr. Gash here.

However, I have seen a lot of the "Shaolin" guys do their front stances with their rear foot turned on the ball of their foot. I would find a picture if I knew what it was called.

[JamesC]

Long Thread. Just skimmed it. Been busy here. :)

Right foot turns on ball, left foot on heel. This way feet are on two different 'tracks' in bow stance.

For combat we usually turn on ball of foot, though in many situations (the above included) the ideal is to shift foot without any of it leaving ground (this I know was mentioned already)...much easier on some surfaces than others.

Like this Dan? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaiUjl_3xBg&feature=related

[ShaolinDan]

Well, he doesn't pivot the front foot at all mostly (toes angle out in horse, plus flexible ankles:)), our horse stance is toes straight forward, so the front foot must shift also.

[YouKnowWho]

We are talking about the transition from Horse stance to Front stance.

Horse to Front Stance Transition* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIlHGWsXT3M&playnext=1&list=PL778A95CDADD7D4CE)
That horse stance is too wide to start with. The proper horse stance width should be shoulder width puls 2 fists distance. If you start from the standard width horse stance, to turn on your toe will give you that extra distance for your wider than horse stance bow-arrow stance.

Can someone please post a clip that turn on the heel? Whether it's easier to turn on the toe and hard to turn on the heel is not my concern. I'm more interesting in the combat effectiveness instead.

If your opponent moves back and your bow-arrow stance cannot reach him and you have to change your bow-arrow stance into your monkey stance, how can you slide your back foot forward if you get stucked on your heel? Do you feel that you may have "mobility" problem by turning on your heel? In other words, how easy can you slide your back foot if you have to?

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3685/monkeystance.jpg

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gBJEou8v3s&feature=related

look how they use the front soles or heels.

:cool:

[YouKnowWho]

If you start from a bow-arrow stance, change it into monkey stance, and end with golden rooster stance, even if your back foot is not on the ground, your body momentum will generate enough power for you.

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3614/chickenstance.gif

Baji master Adam Hsu told me in great detail that in the beginner level training, if your move your back foot when you strike then you are wrong. The reason is you will need to borrow the counter force from the ground. He also said that during the advance level training, if your back foot gets stucked on the ground (not sliding forward) then you are also wrong. The reason is you are not using your momentum to generate force. Both methods can generate power but since the sliding method can give you better mobility, that's why in the Baji system, it's considered more advance level training.

In the following clip, you can see that Adam "slided" on his back foot for almost all his punches. At 0.29, Adam did a back arm punch, please watch his back heel. Also from 0.59 to 1.02, Adam did 4 continuous Fajin. Please watch his back heel too. None of his Fajin has "foot stucked" look IMO.

It's much more fun to discuss with youtube clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OqWUFOtIHc

[YouKnowWho]

For those that would turn on the ball, how do you keep your back heel from moving further away from your target? You could lose a several inches of reach like that?

The distance between you and your opponent depends on your front foot position and not your back foot position. In the following clip, as long as I land my right foot behind my left foot, my ability to reach to my opponent will stay unchange.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W81ccS0i4cY

[Darthlawyer]

The distance between you and your opponent depends on your front foot position and not your back foot position.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W81ccS0i4cY

This is false. You can gain a lot of reach in being able to what some styles call "crab-walking" by bringing your back leg forward. Your total striking range is based upon your back foot, if you are using your back foot for power.

Just look at your own video, when you bring up your leg to kick you hit further forward with your arm.

[SavvySavage]

If you start from a bow-arrow stance, change it into monkey stance, and end with golden rooster stance, even if your back foot is not on the ground, your body momentum will generate enough power for you.

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3614/chickenstance.gif

Baji master Adam Hsu told me in great detail that in the beginner level training, if your move your back foot when you strike then you are wrong. The reason is you will need to borrow the counter force from the ground. He also said that during the advance level training, if your back foot gets stucked on the ground (not sliding forward) then you are also wrong. The reason is you are not using your momentum to generate force. Both methods can generate power but since the sliding method can give you better mobility, that's why in the Baji system, it's considered more advance level training.

In the following clip, you can see that Adam "slided" on his back foot for almost all his punches. At 0.29, Adam did a back arm punch, please watch his back heel. Also from 0.59 to 1.02, Adam did 4 continuous Fajin. Please watch his back heel too. None of his Fajin has "foot stucked" look IMO.

It's much more fun to discuss with youtube clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OqWUFOtIHc



When you mentioned advanced training what exactly were you talking about?

[YouKnowWho]

For those that would turn on the ball, how do you keep your back heel from moving further away from your target? You could lose a several inches of reach like that?


This is false. You can gain a lot of reach in being able to what some styles call "crab-walking" by bringing your back leg forward. Your total striking range is based upon your back foot, if you are using your back foot for power.

Just look at your own video, when you bring up your leg to kick you hit further forward with your arm.

I real enjoy this discussion. It makes me to think something more deeper than before.

Here is my little testing:

- Stand in front of a wall with both feet straight (your shoulder is on top of your knee).
- Keep your arm straight and touch the wall.
- Move your right leg back.
- Keep your head, shoulder, chest, waist, hip, upper leg, and low leg in a straight line.
- The more that you move your back leg backward, the more that your shoulder is moved forward and past your front knee, the move arm reach that you will get.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/5849/leanj.jpg


When you mentioned advanced training what exactly were you talking about?
I just borrowed Adam Hsu's term. In the beginning stage, you try to borrow the counter force from the ground for your power generation. After you have mastered that, you start to borrow your body momentum for your power generation. Since mobility has more value in combat than stationary, the mobility training is considered as more advanced.

Going through your elementary school 4 times will not earn you a PhD degree. If you train the same level material all the time, you will grow fat and not grow tall.

The mantis has very detail training goal:

beginner training - develop speed
intermediate training - develop Shenfa
advantage training - back to normal

The SC system also has detail training goal:

beginning training - offense
intermediate training - defense
advantage training - combos (use one move to set up another)