Another good clip...

[k gledhill]

http://www.michaelkurth.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15&Itemid=19

lots of other clips on site...no prizes for guessing the teacher.

I added an article translated from German to English with Babel fish but its a good read...
Chi Sao is one of the central exercises of the Ving of Tsun style. Mostly with ' Sticking Hände' shown, this translation tempts to large misunderstandings and does not reflect not the actual extensive meaning for the development of the aggressive talents of the practicing again. It actually concerns in this exercise complex neither only the hands/arms, the whole of the body and spirit is rather demanded, nor a ' becomes; Kleben/stuck to' , speak a passive following that Opposing arm, fixing on these, desired, since this would mean the opponent and its acting delivered its (that this helps, might itself to defeat be rather improbable probably). A further wide-spread misunderstanding concerning this exercise is that it itself thereby around (e) a feeling training/- training acts, in the sense that the user can purely defeat the opponent due to his Tastsinnes. That certain contact reflexes are developed, only this is correct from our other senses to uncouple with the reason that this sense is not manipulatable, corresponds to A. the reality and would not be b. unklug (why one should do without advantages voluntarily???). Straight in the Ving Tsun one uses pressure (via Tastsinn) evenly often also to tempt around the opponent for certain actions and that very successfully. Thus now does the question, which, arise, and/or for which this exercise is, why it has such a great importance and its relevance exists only with contact (e.g. Infight)? At the beginning it, completely determined general is valid to train combatrelevant behaviors this system with its conception (surely with many other styles according to its adjustment also) of substantial importance are: - Adjustment (frontally turned stand for the opponent) - Simultaneousness (both arms are used fully) - Structural structure (power transmission employment of the total body mass) - Distance (' a feeling for it entwickeln' , in which distance I must be to the opponent, in order to be able to meet this effectively, and/or accordingly, whether the opponent can reach me effectively). If one continues to progress in the exercises, then also the other substantial aspects become effective fully, which are there: - Timing (when I must move) - Understanding of the individual techniques and in the long run the large complex, which is then used in the long run everywhere, ' strategic behavior and Verständnis'. All these talents, one regards these in their Essenz, is not only aspects of the Infights, speaks contact if already exists, but is substantial in all ranges, distances of an argument: As I position myself, my weapons in the area, in relation to the opponent. When I move in or out and in which direction. The opponent can meet me effectively, and/or really reaches I him with full Kraft. As I attack best, as protect myself I most meaningfully, etc., etc. Speak all aspects of the necessary behavior/the necessary abilities can he/worked on become. ' Ability works on werden' and there substantial crack point lies, speaks source of danger, as from a perfect exercise at best a ' Nullrunde' becomes, in the worst possible case even that Behavior affects negatively (e.g. incorrect distance feeling, which chase to opposing hands, Use of means, which means the task of further options in the consequence, etc.), if not in every detail to the conversion/adherence to of the principles and concepts one pays attention. Also Chi Sao training may not become a Ego competition, where it concerns, not to be even only met and different, best still than revenge, to meet from it can a multiplicity of errors (unfavorable combat behavior) likewise develop, like e.g. to carefree attacking, way tricks, forcing, holding away, holding against, u.V.m. Tries one these advantages to thus always attain and is on the other hand endeavored to avoid the errors, one has an exercise, which can really help one in the development. To that extent: Good (qualitative) practicing.
Maybe someone can edit the parts in german...but you get the 'gist'.

[Buddha_Fist]

Here goes my not-so-literal translation. Sorry for the mistakes, English is not my first language:

Chi-Sao is one of the main exercises in Ving Tsun. The prevalent translation of "Sticky Hands" results in big misconceptions, and does not convey the actual meaning and the fighting skills that it pursues. This drill is not just about hands or arms, but about the whole body and mind. Nor is "sticking" (a passive chasing of the opponent's arms) the goal as this would only only put you at the mercy of your opponent and his actions (it is unlikely that he would do something that would result in your favor). Another widely spread misconception of this drill is that it is a sensitivity drill in the sense that the practitioner will be able to act off solely "feeling" the opponent's actions.

There is no question that a person acquires certain contact reflexes; however it is not realistic to assume that this occurs in absence of the interaction with all other senses (solely "feeling" would also not be very smart). Ving Tsun makes use of pressure (through the sense of touch) to lead the opponent into certain positions or actions, a strategy at which Ving Tsun excels.

So the questions that come to mind are: What are the drill's goals? What is its big significance? Is this drill only relevant when in contact?

It is important to emphasize at the beginning of a person's training habits that are applicable in a general way, that are relevant to fighting, and that correspond to the structure used by the specific boxing method (the latter holds true for many other styles). This is precisely what Chi-Sao does, as it instills the following habits:
- Facing (standing square with respect to the opponent)
- Simultaneity (both arms are fully used)
- Structure (force transfer and engagement of the body as a whole)
- Sense of distance (develop a sense of what the right distance is to strike effectively or what the distance is from which the opponent can hit you)
- Timing (when to move)
- Understanding of the various techniques
- And finally the key aspects that constantly come into play: strategic behavior and understanding.

All of these habits or skills are not only important in close quarter fighting, but in all aspects and at all distances during a fight. They are the answers to questions like: What position do I need to assume when considering the spatial relationship with my opponent? When do I move in or out, and in what direction? Can my opponent hit me effectively, or will I be able to hit him with full force? What is the best way to attack him? How do I protect myself effectively? And so on, and so on... Chi-Sao can train all aspects and habits that are necessary for fighting. "Can train" is key here, as an otherwise terrific exercise can quickly become a complete waste of time, or even instill the wrong habits (bad sense of distance, hand chasing, use of resources that put you at a disadvantage, etc.). This is the reason why it is important to focus on faithfully following all principles and concepts.

Chi-Sao is not an ego-game where you focus on hitting without ever getting hit, which translates into a variety of pitfalls: mistakes and bad habits such as carefree punching, turning away, pushing away, resisting, grabbing, etc.

Focusing on the abovementioned habits and avoiding the pitfalls will result in a drill that truly helps in your development. I wish this article's reader in this respect (qualitatively) great practice!

[k gledhill]

thanks, babel fish didnt do it justice . :D

[Jansingsang]

Thanks for the translation made a lot of sense, made me visualize the instincts i have attained by doing this particular drill the part were it talks about knowing when to strike distance etc hit home as only last nite , Some as$% hole was walking towards me with a group of people he let out a load screeching noise while coming towards me I didn't even flinch i looked at him dead in the eye he had a stupid grin on his face I sensed if he broke the boundary of my imaginary circle around me His friends would be cleaning up his Ugly ass off the floor.No question :D
Yes Chi soa has many good property's within its make up, one must abide by its Concept and principles and not use it as a fighting egotistical yard stick as some many schools do just my two cents

Peace

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.michaelkurth.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15&Itemid=19

lots of other clips on site...no prizes for guessing the teacher.

Again, a good basic example of looksau/lapsau rather than chisau, in my misinformed opinion!

BUT a little too 'bullyish' for my liking :(

I don't know what the purpose is for the guy taking the continual beating, other than being used as a sandbag? Good for a demo though...

[JamesC]

Again, a good basic example of looksau/lapsau rather than chisau, in my misinformed opinion!

BUT a little too 'bullyish' for my liking :(

I don't know what the purpose is for the guy taking the continual beating, other than being used as a sandbag? Good for a demo though...

Yeah, I felt bad for him the whole time, lol.

[Graham H]

Where are the responces to that article from those who think chi sau is about sensing energy from sticking to arms. Quiet as well as wrong?

[k gledhill]

Again, a good basic example of looksau/lapsau rather than chisau, in my misinformed opinion!

BUT a little too 'bullyish' for my liking :(

I don't know what the purpose is for the guy taking the continual beating, other than being used as a sandbag? Good for a demo though...

Ihate to keep harping on the same point ...your ideas of chisao and what it should "look" like are what my choice of clips is trying to show.....the clip I post look like striking in range....timing. angling to face....as article. Not feel each others arms.

[k gledhill]

Yeah, I felt bad for him the whole time, lol.

How many times was he ko'd? Its fighting training with punches.he Is also given openings .
...

[JamesC]

How many times was he ko'd? Its fighting training with punches.he Is also given openings .
...

That's not fight training, sorry. If it was fight training they would actually be hitting each other. Sensitivity training and perhaps trying to teach the less skilled trainee how to work under pressure, sure. It looks like a good drill for that.

Also, I wasn't serious. That's why I put the "lol" on the end of my statement.

[k gledhill]

You don't think its VT fighting training and they should be more sensitive
...why? In other clips they put on gloves and do exactly the same...hitting each other...but with hand protection..gloves. the distances are the same
Angling..timing...facing...strategy......

[JamesC]

You don't think its VT fighting training and they should be more sensitive
...why? In other clips they put on gloves and do exactly the same...hitting each other...but with hand protection..gloves. the distances are the same
Angling..timing...facing...strategy......

I'm not sure if you just have terrible reading comprehension or if you are purposefully ignoring my full posts.

For the second time, I said I was kidding about that. Do I really need to repeat myself again in my next post?

This is a drill. Nothing more. Fight training includes getting hit. If you think that you can learn how to fight without getting hit then you are fooling yourself. Nothing prepares your body for the shock of a fight like actually fighting.

And i'm only referencing this clip. Not the others. I haven't seen the others.

[k gledhill]

I'm not sure if you just have terrible reading comprehension or if you are purposefully ignoring my full posts.

For the second time, I said I was kidding about that. Do I really need to repeat myself again in my next post?

This is a drill. Nothing more. Fight training includes getting hit. If you think that you can learn how to fight without getting hit then you are fooling yourself. Nothing prepares your body for the shock of a fight like actually fighting.

And i'm only referencing this clip. Not the others. I haven't seen the others.

Check out some of the other clips....I'm not sure you understand my posts...

[Jansingsang]

Check out some of the other clips....I'm not sure you understand my posts...
Don't you think its time you Put up or Shut Up Kevin Your Posts Your Boasts Etc Blahh Are rather Boring Now
Show us a Clip of you and your Students in Action in the Good Ole WSL.PBWAY Or WSL.PB.KG.WAY :D Let us Observe if you Practice what you Preach.. You want to Ram it down our throats daily so i think in the Spirit of Sigung Wsl would agree on Prove It Mister ! :rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

Don't you think its time you Put up or Shut Up Kevin Your Posts Your Boasts Etc Blahh Are rather Boring Now
Show us a Clip of you and your Students in Action in the Good Ole WSL.PBWAY Or WSL.PB.KG.WAY :D Let us Observe if you Practice what you Preach.. You want to Ram it down our throats daily so i think in the Spirit of Sigung Wsl would agree on Prove It Mister ! :rolleyes:

Your making it an ego thing, im here to help fix the damage....;) what are your thoughts on the article and clip...? when did I boast ?

[Jansingsang]

Your making it an ego thing, im here to help fix the damage....;)

Your too modest What Everrrr:D Good Artical good entertaining clip Students a plank tho not offering any kind of resistance Only thing missing is the Control aspect Disruption of horse etc as for your Boasting You do that effortlessly and to think your not even aware of that Haha

[k gledhill]

not intended...just trying to keep the VT going.

[GlennR]

Where are the responces to that article from those who think chi sau is about sensing energy from sticking to arms. Quiet as well as wrong?

Yeh, they are all getting psychological treatment for boredom from extended periods of exposure to PB evangelists.

Really, do you listen to yourself?

[k gledhill]

Yeh, they are all getting psychological treatment for boredom from extended periods of exposure to PB evangelists.

Really, do you listen to yourself?

Some arent bored, go figure ?

[Sean66]

I know both the people in the clip. Michael is my teacher and Kai my Si Hing. Kai, a 6 foot 3 Tuetonic beast, is indeed offering plenty of resistance. He's trying his ****dest to limit his mistakes and gain the upper hand. But Michael just has too much experience and is able to dominate him easily.

I might add that this kind of pressure is essential to training (but is not the only aspect of training), and is one reason why the student, Kai, has himself developed solid ving tsun skills.

I was just up there in Bielefeld last weekend with a group of students to train with them. Two guys that definitely "walk the walk", as it were.

[Wayfaring]

what are your thoughts on the article and clip...?
The clip is another of an endless line of semi-compliant chi sau drilling. The article describes the drill and covers "habits" that help your "development".

The question is "development in what?" More chi-sau?

The tall guy has a hunched back, and a non-existent upper gate. Nothing is stopping the punches going through there. The other guy is basically walking in to him and punching with push punches.

I'm not sure what that is training. Push punches are useless in a real fight, unless it's like a schoolyard push fight in elementary school. This is the problem with these compliant drills that do not train anything like what is experienced in a real fight. They set up an alternate unwritten rule set where motions are limited and skill is only determined within that rule set.

Obviously they both think it is skilled, as they have a clip up on the internet on it and support it with a long theoretical article. If I was either one of those guys I wouldn't put a clip like that up on the internet.

[M.Kurth]

Hi all,
well, what a surprise: In a Ving Tsun-Gwoh Sao-Clip is shown Ving Tsun-Gwoh Sao...
I don't know what you are argue about.
It's only one aspect of the training, not more not less.
If you do not understand what it is for, it's ok.
I am rather interested in what you have to offer for training methods
to develope coordination, balance, distance, timing, strategical aspects and
power.
To say that the punches are only push punches is interesting.
Are you able to see if that punches can hurt or not?
Do you hurt your partners in training to show your punching power?
I don't think so.
What is about the use of timing and distance?
If you can use it in a very close range, isn't it more easy to use it
in a longer distance?
However, there are a lot of different ways to develope skills.
Which one is the best-I don't know and I don't care.
But the WSL-way is a very practical system to build up a good foundation.
And I choose this way for me. No one forces anyone to follow.
So no reason to get upset.
Regards
Michael

[Jansingsang]

Thought ill post this for some reflective thought Discussion even ? Iam Wsl VT but i love what this dudes doing sends goose pimples down my spine:D at the end the day good VT is good VT regardless of Lineage;) I think linked to Jiu Wan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f38ykB5ci8&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3RdYkY3c_0&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3RdYkY3c_0&feature=fvwrel

[k gledhill]

The clip is another of an endless line of semi-compliant chi sau drilling. The article describes the drill and covers "habits" that help your "development".

The question is "development in what?" More chi-sau?

The tall guy has a hunched back, and a non-existent upper gate. Nothing is stopping the punches going through there. The other guy is basically walking in to him and punching with push punches.

I'm not sure what that is training. Push punches are useless in a real fight, unless it's like a schoolyard push fight in elementary school. This is the problem with these compliant drills that do not train anything like what is experienced in a real fight. They set up an alternate unwritten rule set where motions are limited and skill is only determined within that rule set.

Obviously they both think it is skilled, as they have a clip up on the internet on it and support it with a long theoretical article. If I was either one of those guys I wouldn't put a clip like that up on the internet.

"I'm not sure what that is training " as you said, just about covers your input. You need to have certain ideas given to you to see what is being done , ergo the article.
What would help you understand ? small intro clips of the modular systematic process, defining the redundant aspects of chi-sao to actual fighting ? I'm thinking to do some.

IMHO Michael is showing some great skills. Intuitive movement...I can only hope to achieve this level of skill myself oneday.

[k gledhill]

Thought ill post this for some reflective thought Discussion even ? Iam Wsl VT but i love what this dudes doing sends goose pimples down my spine:D at the end the day good VT is good VT regardless of Lineage;) I think linked to Jiu Wan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f38ykB5ci8&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3RdYkY3c_0&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3RdYkY3c_0&feature=fvwrel

He moves like the guy in Prodigal son :D but, he over turns losing facing [jiu ying] and is fighting aa guy who stands in one spot and throws punches to the same spot that wont hit him anyway...aka ...hand chaser ;) like fighting the tasmanian devil in bugs bunny cartoons...just step away and let him fight the air :D

in the last clip when he is doing the tan to turn and hit the partners outstretched arms...all the partner has to do is remove his hands as the guy is about to touch them and he will overturn with his own momentum, requiring refacing....or fac sao. anyway thats what I see.
Alignment to strike the center not use arms to chase arms...

great movie action!

[k gledhill]

Your too modest What Everrrr:D Good Artical good entertaining clip Students a plank tho not offering any kind of resistance Only thing missing is the Control aspect Disruption of horse etc as for your Boasting You do that effortlessly and to think your not even aware of that Haha

the guy isnt a plank, I have tried to stay facing guys fighting this way, they turn you while they strike, using stance facing striking and simultaneous jutsaos in the recycling strikes, so you dont 'see' the force of the 'plank' being turned as he is being hit, you just see Michael hitting a guy who cant react fast enough to the refacing, alignment angles as they happen in real time....
In a real engagement the first couple of punches do it, the rest ingrains it into us so we dont think as we do 'it' ;)
Philipp mentioned this 'no mind vt attack' ability. Gor sao is creating a scenario where partners can be role playing as attacker and counter attacker. Give and take openings given or taken....all good.

YM had nicknames for his students, one was 'old scrub brush' he would boast so much before fighting he would wear you down before you even threw a punch, mind games, like M Ali....Greatest Boaster ever, and he could back it up :D

[k gledhill]

I know both the people in the clip. Michael is my teacher and Kai my Si Hing. Kai, a 6 foot 3 Tuetonic beast, is indeed offering plenty of resistance. He's trying his ****dest to limit his mistakes and gain the upper hand. But Michael just has too much experience and is able to dominate him easily.

I might add that this kind of pressure is essential to training (but is not the only aspect of training), and is one reason why the student, Kai, has himself developed solid ving tsun skills.

I was just up there in Bielefeld last weekend with a group of students to train with them. Two guys that definitely "walk the walk", as it were.

I have experienced this domination fighting first hand before I knew my mistakes, then knowing how to fix the errors helped me to just stand my ground :D but not for long ;)

[Wayfaring]

"I'm not sure what that is training " as you said, just about covers your input.

Perhaps it does to someone with a limited capacity for input. Try reading the rest of the paragraph without tuning it out.



You need to have certain ideas given to you to see what is being done , ergo the article.

If a drill is supposed to be training fighting skills, then no, it doesn't need to be introduced with an article. It should be innately evident to anyone who does a fair amount of fighting training / live sparring. This clip unfortunately probably does need to be introduced by an article to explain why someone would train something that develops skills not useful in fighting.



What would help you understand ? small intro clips of the modular systematic process, defining the redundant aspects of chi-sao to actual fighting ? I'm thinking to do some.

There are no amounts of intro clips that can explain how not having a jong structure to protect incoming blows is a good idea or contains skill.

Likewise there are no amounts of intro clips you can do to explain how push punches will have any effect in a live fighting environment.

But by all means, put your explanations, techniques, compliant demos up on YouTube. They will have plenty of company.


IMHO Michael is showing some great skills. Intuitive movement...I can only hope to achieve this level of skill myself oneday.

Let's see them against someone who can move and hit with a reasonable amount of skill then.

[Wayfaring]

Hi all,
well, what a surprise: In a Ving Tsun-Gwoh Sao-Clip is shown Ving Tsun-Gwoh Sao...
I don't know what you are argue about.
It's only one aspect of the training, not more not less.

Gwoh Sau simply means "crossing hands". Which could carry the meaning of anything from advanced jump rope techniques to sparring. Some train more effective methods of sparring than shown in that clip.


If you do not understand what it is for, it's ok.

There is a difference between not understanding what it is for and training the wrong things. Like not having a jong structure or guard. Or like training push punches.


I am rather interested in what you have to offer for training methods
to develope coordination, balance, distance, timing, strategical aspects and
power.

Many other arts have these real new modern inventions to help with this. They are called pads. And focus mitts. And sparring with padded things on your hands and bodies, which allows for more power in striking. And padded walls and cages, which allow you to train pushing people into something other than a coat rack or drywall or a mirror and actually see what to do when that happens. Sometimes push-punching people into these things actually leads to ...GASP... clinch range.

I could google some of those for you if you don't understand what they are for. They have clips up on YouTube as well.


To say that the punches are only push punches is interesting.
Are you able to see if that punches can hurt or not?

Yes, fairly easily.


Do you hurt your partners in training to show your punching power?
I don't think so.

Not by course. However, when training striking with proper gear and getting used to actually hitting people and getting hit with power involved, yes people do get hurt even through gear. Typically not critically though - just a normal level of bangs and bruises. Although I've seen plenty of people get the wind knocked out of them or knocked down and at least dazed by ko punches. This is so common in some sparring circles that they have funny little phrases for describing it.


What is about the use of timing and distance?

What about it?


If you can use it in a very close range, isn't it more easy to use it
in a longer distance?

No, actually surprisingly enough there are different techniques that are effective based upon the range. Even you would have a hard time push punching people at a longer distance.


However, there are a lot of different ways to develope skills.
Which one is the best-I don't know and I don't care.

Apparantly.


But the WSL-way is a very practical system to build up a good foundation.
And I choose this way for me. No one forces anyone to follow.
So no reason to get upset.
Regards
Michael
Not sure what it is in your mind you have built up as "the WSL-way". Not arguing with paths in life. I'm just presenting opinion on a video clip presented and the ensuing fanboi complements. I have a different opinion. Not that I'm an expert or anything on WSL, but some guys who train from his system tend to incorporate some more of what I'm talking about. Like Ernie Barrios.

And who's upset? You? I'm just presenting feedback on a video.

[k gledhill]

The clip is another of an endless line of semi-compliant chi sau drilling. The article describes the drill and covers "habits" that help your "development".

The question is "development in what?" More chi-sau?

The tall guy has a hunched back, and a non-existent upper gate. Nothing is stopping the punches going through there. The other guy is basically walking in to him and punching with push punches.

I'm not sure what that is training. Push punches are useless in a real fight, unless it's like a schoolyard push fight in elementary school. This is the problem with these compliant drills that do not train anything like what is experienced in a real fight. They set up an alternate unwritten rule set where motions are limited and skill is only determined within that rule set.

Obviously they both think it is skilled, as they have a clip up on the internet on it and support it with a long theoretical article. If I was either one of those guys I wouldn't put a clip like that up on the internet.


Jong structure?

[Jansingsang]

He moves like the guy in Prodigal son :D but, he over turns losing facing [jiu ying] and is fighting aa guy who stands in one spot and throws punches to the same spot that wont hit him anyway...aka ...hand chaser ;) like fighting the tasmanian devil in bugs bunny cartoons...just step away and let him fight the air :D

in the last clip when he is doing the tan to turn and hit the partners outstretched arms...all the partner has to do is remove his hands as the guy is about to touch them and he will overturn with his own momentum, requiring refacing....or fac sao. anyway thats what I see.
Alignment to strike the center not use arms to chase arms...

great movie action! Agreed he doe's resemble a reincarnation of Lam Ching Ying From the Prodigal Son and yes he does chase a bit from what i observe for a reason this, being the Controlling aspect..This guy knows how to manipulate and position the bridge arms For example on the first clip check out .044 and 0.47 WTF Never seen Sh%t as sharp as that in along time and ive been living this along time :) Like i said in my last post i think his linked to Jiu Wan close Student and friend of GGM Ipman If that be the case it explains alot to myself as Ive wondered why i does' Sifu Ng chun hong from the Wsl family, first taught by Jiu Wan.and also Sifu LOK Yiu Vingtsun have that distinct Control of Structure and bridge manipulation I know Ipman had this element within his Vingtsun from past testimony of his Students what Iam trying to say is all elements need to be analyzed and obviously validated theres never one be all answer Kevin We do this X To X = x2 sq Must be this Blahhh keeping a open mind is imperative for true growth just as a human being U dig:cool:

[Wayfaring]

Jong structure?

Well that certainly explains why you guys get hit a lot.

What I am talking about is the built-in 2 line defence of WCK. This is a core part of the simultaneous attack and defense of WCK as well. It consists of:

1) Outer Gate - Kiu Jong
2) Inner Gate - Mun Jong

You may have noticed the standard setup of WCK hands - one outer, one inner that most refer to as man sao and wu sao? Did you know those actually can have some value in preventing a fist from hitting you? And not in a slappy dodge fashion?

To do this, they have to have structure in controlling the space in front of you. This is notably missing in that video clip.

[k gledhill]

Well that certainly explains why you guys get hit a lot.

What I am talking about is the built-in 2 line defence of WCK. This is a core part of the simultaneous attack and defense of WCK as well. It consists of:

1) Outer Gate - Kiu Jong
2) Inner Gate - Mun Jong

You may have noticed the standard setup of WCK hands - one outer, one inner that most refer to as man sao and wu sao? Did you know those actually can have some value in preventing a fist from hitting you? And not in a slappy dodge fashion?

To do this, they have to have structure in controlling the space in front of you. This is notably missing in that video clip.

got a clip :D

[anerlich]

Some arent bored

Some are. Me.

[k gledhill]

Some are. Me.
so bored you ave to come ona thread that bores you and tell everyone your....:D you need to get out more.;)

[GlennR]

so bored you ave to come ona thread that bores you and tell everyone your....:D you need to get out more.;)


Well youre more than happy to hop on a thread and rubbish anything non-pb

So makes your thread critique proof?

[k gledhill]

Well youre more than happy to hop on a thread and rubbish anything non-pb

So makes your thread critique proof?

Never said it was, just posted a clip and article, the rest ...:D

[Lee Chiang Po]

That clip was not chi sao. Not even close really. It was of 2 men sort of sparring, although one was not skilled while the other was. It was NOT chi sao. Chi Sao is a set patterned drill whereby 2 men can both practive hand techniques in a manner in which they can make them flow smoothly and with precision. It is not a game whereby 2 men try to out chi sao one another. This is what Wing Chun has come to.

[Sean66]

You're right, the clip does not show Chi Sao exercises, but Gwoh Sao. The article posted, however, talks about Chi Sao.

Michael (the man in the clip training with his student) stated this pretty clearly a page back.

Again, the clip shows only one aspect of training.

[LoneTiger108]

Again, a good basic example of looksau/lapsau rather than chisau, in my misinformed opinion!

Now everyone finally starts to repeat what I was saying at the beginning of this thread.

Funny that ;)

FWIW The clip isn't gwoh (gor) sau either.

[Sean66]

Oh, man. Whatever you want to call it is fine with me.
In the beginning of the clip they use chi sao as a starting point and then laap sau.

So if your understanding of gwoh sau is "free attack chi sao exercise", I guess for the most part of the clip they are actually doing a "free attack laap sau exercise," whatever that might be called in Cantonese...

The important point is that it shows, in my opinion, expert use of distance, timing, angling, footwork and control. Control in not blasting the head off of the student (it is, after all, training and not a fight) and control in the wider Wing Chun sense of attacking while reducing the chance of counter attack by the opponent.

The fact that Kai, the student, appears as if he has "no upper gate" is testimony to the skill of the teacher. But, of course, these are things that have to be experienced first hand, so I totally understand the critique.

More importantly, the guys in the clip have never claimed to be better than anyone else.

[sihing]

Oh, man. Whatever you want to call it is fine with me.
In the beginning of the clip they use chi sao as a starting point and then laap sau.

So if your understanding of gwoh sau is "free attack chi sao exercise", I guess for the most part of the clip they are actually doing a "free attack laap sau exercise," whatever that might be called in Cantonese...

The important point is that it shows, in my opinion, expert use of distance, timing, angling, footwork and control. Control in not blasting the head off of the student (it is, after all, training and not a fight) and control in the wider Wing Chun sense of attacking while reducing the chance of counter attack by the opponent.

The fact that Kai, the student, appears as if he has "no upper gate" is testimony to the skill of the teacher. But, of course, these are things that have to be experienced first hand, so I totally understand the critique.

More importantly, the guys in the clip have never claimed to be better than anyone else.

Sean,

The frustration you are feeling, it will only get worse the more you post or frequent this forum,,just fair warning man, you seem like a cool dude:)

In this place it doesn't matter if one states superiority or not, they all assume it anyways, since anything of quality is always percieved as a threat. The follies of becoming identified with what one does.

What I see is people getting frustrated with the constant WSL/PB advertising/praise, and therefore the attacks come. I have to admit after awhile it does get old, but good stuff is good stuff, get over it, if your sick of it don't read the thread...

[LoneTiger108]

Oh, man. Whatever you want to call it is fine with me.
In the beginning of the clip they use chi sao as a starting point and then laap sau.

So if your understanding of gwoh sau is "free attack chi sao exercise", I guess for the most part of the clip they are actually doing a "free attack laap sau exercise," whatever that might be called in Cantonese...

Kind of, yes. But my understanding of Gorsau is that it is FIGHTING. All ranges, anything goes (unless there's a gentlemans agreement in there somewhere!)

What you refer to as 'free attack' I would put into the Sansau category (meaning 'loose hands') which also generally means an exchange of ideas similar to one-two step sparring that is NOT going to hurt anyone. Gorsau is a different animal altogether.


More importantly, the guys in the clip have never claimed to be better than anyone else.

No, they don't. But they guys in the clip didn't post the clip did they? I don't even know if they have ever contributed to the forum??

And FWIW I don't criticize to come across as a 'know-it-all' a$$hole, that's just how some people take my posts and it's their problem. I am by far an expert on Wing Chun. I just have a different insight to most as I learnt from literature, not from memorizing forms and drills. I'm not saying one is better than the other either as they are BOTH required imho.

I can not stand to see the actual 'language' of our art 'changed' to suit whatever you want it to be. The language, from my very personal experience, is totally key to everything we do and the quicker people realize this the better our system will adapt and change.

Know what the differences are bewteen chi, look, san, gor etc because if you don't then you are just selling your own ideas. That's not Wing Chun imho, that's more akin to JKD or MMA.

Whatever rocks your boat! :)

[Sean66]

@sihing
Thanks, man, and I hear you.

@LoneTiger
Ok, fair enough. If that is your definition of Gorsau I won't argue with you.
We definitely need a common vocabulary in order to have fruitful discussion.
Here is an interesting thread from another forum, that might provide some insight:

http://wongshunleung.takeforum.com/2008/02/03/whats-gwoh-sau/

If I'm not mistaken, our own Graham H also contributed to the discussion.

Maybe part of the problem is that we are dealing with terminology in a language that very few of us here speak or understand. Perhaps it would be better to describe what we mean/see in an analytical way. That way we can avoid the danger of mystification.

[LoneTiger108]

@LoneTiger
Ok, fair enough. If that is your definition of Gorsau I won't argue with you.
We definitely need a common vocabulary in order to have fruitful discussion.

And that is where learning a bit of Cantonese comes in Sean. It isn't that difficult and most (if not all) the Sifu I know are trying. I consider myself very lucky to have an oldskool teacher that wouldn't teach me if I didn't put in the effort to learn his language myself.


Here is an interesting thread from another forum, that might provide some insight:

http://wongshunleung.takeforum.com/2008/02/03/whats-gwoh-sau/

I liked the discussion, but again there are differences to how I studied interactive training. Same direct translation, Gorsau meaning 'cross hands', which is our Wing Chun slang for FIGHTING! And teachers of Wing Chun should know what the slang words mean, or they too have missed the point of Wing Chun!

The only different thing I would say is that Gorsau isn't attached to Chisau training, it is independent sparring (of sorts) which can start by crossing hands (right to right or left to left) Naturally, two WCK guys sparring in close range tend to also fall into set drills and rotations, but these should be avoided during fighting.

If there is a stage by stage approach like the other forum suggested I would recommend this order:

1. Poonsau - enclosed hands
2. Chisau - sticking hands
3. Looksau - rotating hands
4. Sansau - loose hands
5. Gorsau - cross hands

Ultimately, they can be picked up and trained at anytime you please really, and learnt in the same manner. Some people like to fight first and think later! :D Some schools only teach one of the above, some teach a few but not many teach ALL separately, but as I have also said many times before, I see people doing these drills within what they call their Chisau, maybe without even knowing (or wanting to know!) the differences and specialities of each method.

The days are passed us when everything we do in an interaction is called Chisau because that's just not right and does not make any sense when you know a little of the Chinese language imho.

I await to be heavily attacked over this post :o But attack away with the best Gorsau you have! :D

[Buddha_Fist]

And that is where learning a bit of Cantonese comes in Sean. It isn't that difficult and most (if not all) the Sifu I know are trying. I consider myself very lucky to have an oldskool teacher that wouldn't teach me if I didn't put in the effort to learn his language myself.



I liked the discussion, but again there are differences to how I studied interactive training. Same direct translation, Gorsau meaning 'cross hands', which is our Wing Chun slang for FIGHTING! And teachers of Wing Chun should know what the slang words mean, or they too have missed the point of Wing Chun!

The only different thing I would say is that Gorsau isn't attached to Chisau training, it is independent sparring (of sorts) which can start by crossing hands (right to right or left to left) Naturally, two WCK guys sparring in close range tend to also fall into set drills and rotations, but these should be avoided during fighting.

If there is a stage by stage approach like the other forum suggested I would recommend this order:

1. Poonsau - enclosed hands
2. Chisau - sticking hands
3. Looksau - rotating hands
4. Sansau - loose hands
5. Gorsau - cross hands

Ultimately, they can be picked up and trained at anytime you please really, and learnt in the same manner. Some people like to fight first and think later! :D Some schools only teach one of the above, some teach a few but not many teach ALL separately, but as I have also said many times before, I see people doing these drills within what they call their Chisau, maybe without even knowing (or wanting to know!) the differences and specialities of each method.

The days are passed us when everything we do in an interaction is called Chisau because that's just not right and does not make any sense when you know a little of the Chinese language imho.

I await to be heavily attacked over this post :o But attack away with the best Gorsau you have! :D

No "Gor Sao" response here as we have different takes on what it is and what it is for... ;)

Even though language has its place in teaching a boxing method, degree of familiarity with foreign terms for drills that you can adequatly described in your own language is not a prerequisite when in comes to understanding.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that tradition should be preserved, but I also think that people get lost with chicken-****. A Ving Tsun practitioner should be focused above all on the bottomline: whether what he trains works under stress in an uncontrolled environment, and how efficient it is. It's really evident when the focus is something else, people start wasting time and the lack of real fighting skill becomes apparent.

When looking at video clips of drills, the question is whether the drill is training specific skills, habits, and attributes relevant to fighting (balance, timing, distance control, punching power, hand-foot coordination, use of full body in delivering the punch, etc.) . Also, a drill will have somebody feeding, and somebody drilling - which is what we see. It is evident that Michael has a superb control over many of the above aspects. How well he transfers them over to a real fight is not shown, and any assumption based off the video remains just an assumption.

Having said that, I like Michael's vid as I recognize good attributes and skills, and he appears to stick to the bottomline in what he is drilling.

Spencer, you mention having a "different insight" because you learnt from reading literature. Do you have any clips of yourself showing how good this has translated into skills and attributes? Not an attack, just curious. I cannot fathom a craft like Ving Tsun being learnt from (mostly) reading.

[anerlich]

so bored you ave to come ona thread that bores you and tell everyone your

I'm not telling everyone. Just you and your fellow zealot.


You need to get out more

That won't stop you and your fanboyism from being uninteresting.

[anerlich]

And teachers of Wing Chun should know what the slang words mean, or they too have missed the point of Wing Chun!


So, Spence, have you made any inroads into the study of five element theory? Last time we conversed on the subject, you had quite a way to go.

Not saying you personally, but it is possible to talk ignorant rubbish in multiple languages.

[jesper]

And that is where learning a bit of Cantonese comes in Sean. It isn't that difficult and most (if not all) the Sifu I know are trying. I consider myself very lucky to have an oldskool teacher that wouldn't teach me if I didn't put in the effort to learn his language myself.


How exactly does knowing how to name a certain technic in cantoneese make me a better fighter ?

I can understand the need for a common reference but if a teacher wants me to study a language before teaching me to fight then screw him. plenty of good teachers around

[Wayfaring]

got a clip :D

No, my WCK family doesn't do clips - tradition of hands on training. However, I did post up a number of clips of people I train with at a different school. Feel free to criticize away...

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1025487&postcount=25

[Wayfaring]

What I see is people getting frustrated with the constant WSL/PB advertising/praise, and therefore the attacks come. I have to admit after awhile it does get old, but good stuff is good stuff, get over it, if your sick of it don't read the thread...

Please feel free to correct me on my comments regarding "the WSL way..." and whether or not all WSL decendents train with push punches and no upper gate like in the clip if I said something that is inaccurate in any way. I mentioned Ernie Barrios as an example of more realistic training, but that's just my perception. You train with him.

[Sean66]

Wayfaring,
What is inaccurate is your assessment of the clip.
They are not "training with no upper gate and push punches".

Although it may appear that the student in the clip has "no upper gate", this is definitely not the case. He is being controlled....his structure is being broken down and manipulated by Mr. Kurth, who is, well, **** good at what he does.

Each time Mr. Kurth pushes away his student he is just demonstrating that he was within range to deliver a decisive blow. The rest of the time he is making sure to use only light contact because, as I stated before, it's not a fight, but training. And, don't forget, only one aspect of training.

[Wayfaring]

Wayfaring,
What is inaccurate is your assessment of the clip.
They are not "training with no upper gate and push punches".

Although it may appear that the student in the clip has "no upper gate", this is definitely not the case. He is being controlled....his structure is being broken down and manipulated by Mr. Kurth, who is, well, **** good at what he does.

Each time Mr. Kurth pushes away his student he is just demonstrating that he was within range to deliver a decisive blow. The rest of the time he is making sure to use only light contact because, as I stated before, it's not a fight, but training. And, don't forget, only one aspect of training.

Absolute rubbish.

I can tell from BOTH of their elbow positions that neither has any upper gate or control of space. Not just the student.

But by all means continue on with your fanboi behavior.

[Vajramusti]

It is good to see clips of people practicing wing chun-- but IMHO--the length of this thread seems to be out of proportion to the importance of what is shown in the . clip which shows a little rolling and then one guy essentially pushing the other guy and "hitting" him when the other guy just stands there with his hands down.

joy chaudhuri.

[k gledhill]

No, my WCK family doesn't do clips - tradition of hands on training. However, I did post up a number of clips of people I train with at a different school. Feel free to criticize away...

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1025487&postcount=25


so no vt clips ...I watch ufc and train some stuff too, not relative to my jong structure questions...whats that ?

[k gledhill]

It is good to see clips of people practicing wing chun-- but IMHO--the length of this thread seems to be out of proportion to the importance of what is shown in the . clip which shows a little rolling and then one guy essentially pushing the other guy and "hitting" him when the other guy just stands there with his hands down.

joy chaudhuri.

oh Joy, if only you and 'spider bite' could feeeeel ! ...:D you like vt, no love it...arent you a little curious how a guy 5ft nothing was hailed as this amazing kung fu fighter...Yip Man. What gave him the ability to seem to be hitting/controlling turned opponents effortlessly like WSL, Philipp, Michael, etc.... It 'looks' like a guy 6'4 isnt trying to stop being hit...but trust us HE IS !! :D

the idea is that as the big guy does try to face and stop being hit by facing, Michael is skillfully 'allowing' movement to gain the resulting effortless strike line resulting from a mistake.
The centerline sweeping strikes of the system allow this method.
Elbow training means Michaels forearms are his hands as his fists are hitting in cycles, each forearm both a hit and a parry as it slides in....you cant see it, sophisticated simplicity ?

I fight this way and develop this idea too now , so I can SEE it, you cant see the idea being worked...its not fanboing ? :D I see **** good technique, force generation.

the shoves are to also maintain a mindset to keep the momentum going , flowing forwards ..dominating. Strike , strike, shove...sometimes its just to ensure we can reach with force in each arm to the opponent to simply prove our distance+force=partner flying away...

And or if a guy covers up from hits or pain of a hit and I cant hit him cleanly because he is protecting his head , I shove him as Michael is showing.
This 'shove' aka po-pai can also be done recover striking distances too.
As strikers using a specific working distance its our distances we train to maintain, shoving allows our distances and also displacing balance etc...

A skilled user of po-pai simply shoves enough to put a guy right back into full force strike distances.

its not how we punch :D take that ! shove, and this shove shove ..shove :D:D:D

[k gledhill]

Absolute rubbish.

I can tell from BOTH of their elbow positions that neither has any upper gate or control of space. Not just the student.

But by all means continue on with your fanboi behavior.

You cant see so its rubbish.... Maybe your seeing how 'you think' VT works for YOU ..I have students from other 'ideas' who also adopted wide arms , high positions to 'block' punches...I now show them another 'idea'...suddenly their arms and elbows come down and they turn only to 'try' and face me now....:D its nice to know a few here reading will smile knowing what I mean ....:D:D

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1091928]oh Joy, if only you and 'spider bite' could feeeeel ! ...:D you like vt, no love it...arent you a little curious how a guy 5ft nothing was hailed as this amazing kung fu fighter...Yip Man. What gave him the ability to seem to be hitting/controlling turned opponents effortlessly like WSL, Philipp, Michael, etc.... It 'looks' like a guy 6'4 isnt trying to stop being hit...but trust us HE IS !! :D
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good grief! Same old same old repetitions. I shortened the verbose post.I do not think that you have a monopoly on being amazed by Ip Man or his style.

Joy Chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1091928]oh Joy, if only you and 'spider bite' could feeeeel ! ...:D you like vt, no love it...arent you a little curious how a guy 5ft nothing was hailed as this amazing kung fu fighter...Yip Man. What gave him the ability to seem to be hitting/controlling turned opponents effortlessly like WSL, Philipp, Michael, etc.... It 'looks' like a guy 6'4 isnt trying to stop being hit...but trust us HE IS !! :D
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good grief! Same old same old repetitions. I shortened the verbose post.I do not think that you have a monopoly on being amazed by Ip Man or his style.

Joy Chaudhuri

Its out there Joy ....just keep an open mind that Maybe you havent encountered it yet.

Verbose, me ? :D I write for all not just you Joy....lot of lurkers here.;)

[k gledhill]

Why would anyone who was learning proper Wing Chun puzzle over this?

I suggest that people who do are lacking something in their training.

What I'm more curious about is how much of what has been argued on this forum has influenced some of these Fanboy Wing Chun Flavors. I remember a time when you yourself argued against "controlling while striking" with T Niehoff. Interesting that it's cropping up as an element in your essays now.

differnt 'controlling' to the infamous TN..he uses 2 hands to fight one ;) one fighting two is skill :D

you need to feeeel....hands on is the only way to teach/coach/YOU...guys interpret clips in their vt minds eye, aka how I see vt through my understanding , there are alternative views , keep looking investigating, dont be afraid to try other ideas out.

[Wayfaring]

You cant see so its rubbish.... Maybe your seeing how 'you think' VT works for YOU ..I have students from other 'ideas' who also adopted wide arms , high positions to 'block' punches...I now show them another 'idea'...suddenly their arms and elbows come down and they turn only to 'try' and face me now....:D its nice to know a few here reading will smile knowing what I mean ....:D:D

No, it's rubbish because anyone who fights striking with power can see its rubbish. And wide arms and high positions to block punches are not anywhere near what I'm talking about.

It's control of space. If you have no elbow position you have no control of space - it's just illusion, despite all your showing 'ideas' and ego regarding how you think you can turn anyone.

I know what you mean. You just don't have a clue about structure, which is the underlying fundamental which can make all the rest of what you're droning on about work.

[Wayfaring]

Here's the the Ho Kam Ming (http://youtu.be/Tqei3nJC9mE) guy (in green, Jerome Aranas) doing Chi Sao with one of his students. Looks boring, eh? :D ;)

Xiao - I like that clip for structure a lot better, especially the taller guy. The guy in the green shirt gets collapsed in on himself. Note the difference in control of space by noting the elbow position there. (although looking at your post it looks like the guy in green is the teacher).

[Wayfaring]

so no vt clips ...I watch ufc and train some stuff too, not relative to my jong structure questions...whats that ?

You asked for clips. That's what I've got from the team I train with. It's only not relative if you don't want to see it. Plenty of what you call "po pai" going on there. Except instead of people giving up after being shoved they keep fighting.

[Wayfaring]

Afterwards, one of the students kind of tried to "comfort" me, thinking it must've been embarrasing. "It's not fair that he made you go through all of us before you got the chance to work with him" said the student. "Hey, if it was me, I'd have done the same thing," I replied. :D

I hope to train with them again someday.

Sounds like fun, man.

[GlennR]

http://www.michaelkurth.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15&Itemid=19

lots of other clips on site...no prizes for guessing the teacher.

I added an article translated from German to English with Babel fish but its a good read...
Chi Sao is one of the central exercises of the Ving of Tsun style. Mostly with ' Sticking Hände' shown, this translation tempts to large misunderstandings and does not reflect not the actual extensive meaning for the development of the aggressive talents of the practicing again. It actually concerns in this exercise complex neither only the hands/arms, the whole of the body and spirit is rather demanded, nor a ' becomes; Kleben/stuck to' , speak a passive following that Opposing arm, fixing on these, desired, since this would mean the opponent and its acting delivered its (that this helps, might itself to defeat be rather improbable probably). A further wide-spread misunderstanding concerning this exercise is that it itself thereby around (e) a feeling training/- training acts, in the sense that the user can purely defeat the opponent due to his Tastsinnes. That certain contact reflexes are developed, only this is correct from our other senses to uncouple with the reason that this sense is not manipulatable, corresponds to A. the reality and would not be b. unklug (why one should do without advantages voluntarily???). Straight in the Ving Tsun one uses pressure (via Tastsinn) evenly often also to tempt around the opponent for certain actions and that very successfully. Thus now does the question, which, arise, and/or for which this exercise is, why it has such a great importance and its relevance exists only with contact (e.g. Infight)? At the beginning it, completely determined general is valid to train combatrelevant behaviors this system with its conception (surely with many other styles according to its adjustment also) of substantial importance are: - Adjustment (frontally turned stand for the opponent) - Simultaneousness (both arms are used fully) - Structural structure (power transmission employment of the total body mass) - Distance (' a feeling for it entwickeln' , in which distance I must be to the opponent, in order to be able to meet this effectively, and/or accordingly, whether the opponent can reach me effectively). If one continues to progress in the exercises, then also the other substantial aspects become effective fully, which are there: - Timing (when I must move) - Understanding of the individual techniques and in the long run the large complex, which is then used in the long run everywhere, ' strategic behavior and Verständnis'. All these talents, one regards these in their Essenz, is not only aspects of the Infights, speaks contact if already exists, but is substantial in all ranges, distances of an argument: As I position myself, my weapons in the area, in relation to the opponent. When I move in or out and in which direction. The opponent can meet me effectively, and/or really reaches I him with full Kraft. As I attack best, as protect myself I most meaningfully, etc., etc. Speak all aspects of the necessary behavior/the necessary abilities can he/worked on become. ' Ability works on werden' and there substantial crack point lies, speaks source of danger, as from a perfect exercise at best a ' Nullrunde' becomes, in the worst possible case even that Behavior affects negatively (e.g. incorrect distance feeling, which chase to opposing hands, Use of means, which means the task of further options in the consequence, etc.), if not in every detail to the conversion/adherence to of the principles and concepts one pays attention. Also Chi Sao training may not become a Ego competition, where it concerns, not to be even only met and different, best still than revenge, to meet from it can a multiplicity of errors (unfavorable combat behavior) likewise develop, like e.g. to carefree attacking, way tricks, forcing, holding away, holding against, u.V.m. Tries one these advantages to thus always attain and is on the other hand endeavored to avoid the errors, one has an exercise, which can really help one in the development. To that extent: Good (qualitative) practicing.
Maybe someone can edit the parts in german...but you get the 'gist'.

Tall guy has nothing .... any half decent WC guy would be able to toss him around regardless of his size

I assume he is a new student?

[duende]

No, it's rubbish because anyone who fights striking with power can see its rubbish. And wide arms and high positions to block punches are not anywhere near what I'm talking about.

It's control of space. If you have no elbow position you have no control of space - it's just illusion, despite all your showing 'ideas' and ego regarding how you think you can turn anyone.

I know what you mean. You just don't have a clue about structure, which is the underlying fundamental which can make all the rest of what you're droning on about work.

Nicely put Dave. At some point the training wheels will come off and they will understand what you mean. As one has to develop skills and structure that do not require compliant training partners.

[Wayfaring]

okay now I know wayfarings thinking... laughing at you dude, you really think thats good ...a waddling hand chasing example I couldnt choose better...guys move like elephants.

save the jong structure response, it now doesnt matter ...

No you don't. I didn't say it was good. I said that the elbow positioning in that clip was better than the one in the clip you are still slobbering over.

One point of comparison - elbow position.

w/r to you calling that hand chasing - I saw far more hand chasing in your fanboi clip.

And dude, get over yourself with all the "who's laughing at who". Some random guy on the internet that acts like a fanboi hyena is laughing at me? Wow - I'm so devestated. Like all the slap happiness in that clip, your delusion of things having impact is ever present.

[Wayfaring]

Nicely put Dave. At some point the training wheels will come off and they will understand what you mean. As one has to develop skills and structure that do not require compliant training partners.

Thx Alex. They may never understand. But if they don't then the WCK involved will probably be pretty far diluted from what even WSL did. He had the reputation of mixing it up with plenty of non-compliant partners.

[LoneTiger108]

I know the thread has 'moved on' from my last post, so I will be as brief as possible replying to the few comments aimed at me. Quite surprised actually because I thought more would join in the online kicking...


Spencer, you mention having a "different insight" because you learnt from reading literature. Do you have any clips of yourself showing how good this has translated into skills and attributes? Not an attack, just curious. I cannot fathom a craft like Ving Tsun being learnt from (mostly) reading.

I think you misunderstand what I mean by literature, becuae I don't mean classic poetry and history books. I mean structured curriculums and point based systems that allow the practitioners to refine his understanding of all common and uncommon terms used during teaching Wing Chun.

And yes, I have many clips of training my skills and attributes and I am working on a new project at Flystudio to create more, as I feel what you're looking for is me doing someone in who is applying enough skilled 'pressure' to test my knowledge(?) So I f I beat the crap out of xxxxx, will that be good enough? Hmmm...

I also liked the clip dude, but as Joy said, far too much banter over such simple things.


So, Spence, have you made any inroads into the study of five element theory? Last time we conversed on the subject, you had quite a way to go.

Not saying you personally, but it is possible to talk ignorant rubbish in multiple languages.

Yes I know it is because I see it all the time.

As for my knowledge of Five Elements, it is specific to training curriculums and the way Wing Chun (as I know it) is developed. Nothing to do with accupuncture or mystical nonsense learnt at college. So, yes I did look into what you were suggesting and realized that will not help you understand what I'm talking about.


How exactly does knowing how to name a certain technic in cantoneese make me a better fighter ?

I can understand the need for a common reference but if a teacher wants me to study a language before teaching me to fight then screw him. plenty of good teachers around

Let me just say that if you want a teacher to teach you to fight (for real or competition doesn't matter) then good luck on your search. All the foreign language in the world may not help you.

My Sifu was teaching me how to teach, which is why the language was looked upon as important as he has seen far too many generations go before him that relied on memory, and that in itself has caused issues to this day. The ability to fight 'as a Wing Chun practitioner' is only a byproduct of decent and thorough training, and I believe I have had my fair share of that.

[Vajramusti]

Xiao - I like that clip for structure a lot better, especially the taller guy. The guy in the green shirt gets collapsed in on himself. Note the difference in control of space by noting the elbow position there. (although looking at your post it looks like the guy in green is the teacher).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The guy in green is from Ottawa and took some lessons from Ho Kam Ming. He is not a direct Ho Kam Ming student. For a direct Ho Kam Ming student =google Lui Ming Fai-wing chun. Lui has structure, footwork and control and fighting experience informing his wing chun.

I don't think that the guy in green is collapsing-he is adjusting, giving in a bit but retaining control.

joy chaudhuri

[Da Jai]

all this talk about the centerline sweeping strikes. seems that this only works if you have a compliant partner or someone throwing wing chun vertical punches
what do you do when someone is throwing jabs or angling and attacking or throwing round punches? if the answer is my WC punch is faster or i'll just move away then why stress so much the elbow in and sweeping out striking? not saying the elbow in idea is wrong but seems some feel this sweeping out striking makes one impermeable to being hit.

[Sean66]

Just to clarify one more time, the student in the clip, Kai Bremmenkamp, is not being compliant but being overwhelmed.
I know it's hard to believe without the feeling of a first-hand experience, so I do understand and appreciate the critique. No hard feelings from my end.

These guys regularly train with non-compliant partners and partners from other martial arts. Over the years Michael himself has regularly hosted people who wanted to "cross hands" with him. People from other wing chun systems, other kung fu styles and mma. So he knows what it's like sparring with someone who doesn't give a squat about his wing chun and just wants to knock his head off.

In the spirit of the WSL way of wing chun, he has never taken anything his teacher taught him for granted and has always sought to put his skills to the test and refine them. Which is normal if you want to progress and evolve beyond a mere bubble of kung fu fantasy.

Again, I'm not saying that this way of training is superior to how you guys train. And I'm not trying to convert anyone here. Just trying to give a little more background, 'cause I know it's easy to jump to conclusions when it comes to video material.

Cheers,
Sean

[LoneTiger108]

Well said Sean :)

Let's see what everyone thinks of this little clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzjGWRXGuM4&feature=related

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Sean66;1092090]Just to clarify one more time, the student in the clip, Kai Bremmenkamp, is not being compliant but being overwhelmed.
I know it's hard to believe without the feeling of a first-hand experience, so I do understand and appreciate the critique. No hard feelings from my end.
----------------------

No problem Sean.

good wishes,

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well said Sean :)

Let's see what everyone thinks of this little clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzjGWRXGuM4&feature=related

I know this may be a silly question, but are there any clips of WC that is NOT VS another WC person, even more so a student of the person demoing?

[Vajramusti]

I know this may be a silly question, but are there any clips of WC that is NOT VS another WC person, even more so a student of the person demoing?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nota silly question---
But-

I know good wing chun people who have sparred and fought non wing chun people but I do not know of clips that have been or are shown on You Tube.

Some good people are not even aware of this forum (gasp)!

joy

[JamesC]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nota silly question---
But-

I know good wing chun people who have sparred and fought non wing chun people but I do not know of clips that have been or are shown on You Tube.

Some good people are not even aware of this forum (gasp)!

joy

Or just don't wish to waste their breath, lol. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nota silly question---
But-

I know good wing chun people who have sparred and fought non wing chun people but I do not know of clips that have been or are shown on You Tube.

Some good people are not even aware of this forum (gasp)!

joy

LIES !!!
LOL !!
Good point Joy, still it would be nice that people that go out of their way to make a video, would make a video that highlights WC VS NON-WC.
Just saying...
We see boxing VS boxing all the time, but that is because boxing was designed to fight against boxing, which is NOT the case with WC, correct?

[Vajramusti]

LIES !!!
LOL !!
Good point Joy, still it would be nice that people that go out of their way to make a video, would make a video that highlights WC VS NON-WC.
Just saying...
We see boxing VS boxing all the time, but that is because boxing was designed to fight against boxing, which is NOT the case with WC, correct?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boxing is a sport 7 I have boxed. And, without cameras I have done other things.
Neither Leung Jan nor Ip man regarded wing chun as a sport.
IMO, wc can be adapted for sport with good coaching, training and internalizing the rules of a specific sport. Some I know have done that but I don't have film reels. there are "stills" here and there. Wing chun is IMO not for the masses. You craft a wing chunner one by one.

For some An old wc and TCMA saying applies-I know them but they don't know me.

Yes- and I have heard the arguments about and critiques of insularity.

Not everyone who have defended themselves feel the need for public display.


joy

[anerlich]

Let's see what everyone thinks of this little clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzjGW...eature=related


It's a bit long.

[Wayfaring]

Well said Sean :)

Let's see what everyone thinks of this little clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzjGWRXGuM4&feature=related

False advertising? Thought I'd see WSL but instead it's just 2 guys dancing. One guy was breathing really hard so is probably not in condition for the foxtrot.

[Wayfaring]

I don't think that the guy in green is collapsing-he is adjusting, giving in a bit but retaining control.

joy chaudhuri

I'll go over what i see.

Opening frame - green's upper bong is collapsed, no forward intent, big guy - waltzing elephant (we)'s lower pak/jum has elbow way off line and is giving up his center.

After 2 exchanges 0:04 - step forward, step back, same story - upper bong collapsed, with no forward intent.

Other places where green's upper bong collapses - 0:10, 0:13, 0:22LH, 0:25 to the point he could get hit easily, etc.

The problem with collapsed structures like you see there is that it immediately puts you behind in timeframe - you lose space, and need to take the time to recover it, which allows opponent's defense to overwhelm you if they are really going after it and not the compliant pushing around like we see in these clips.

[wkmark]

Here is a little clip recently of a Gor Sau Excercise. Please note the word Exercise. So don't look too deep into the clip. I am just sharing....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kbP7IuR43g&feature=player_embedded

[anerlich]

So, yes I did look into what you were suggesting and realized that will not help you understand what I'm talking about.



No one understands what you are talking about, and I believe that includes you.

[anerlich]

oh Joy, if only you and 'spider bite' could feeeeel !

That reference was pretty low, Kev. No need to be a d!ck just because you can't type or argue.

[sanjuro_ronin]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boxing is a sport 7 I have boxed. And, without cameras I have done other things.
Neither Leung Jan nor Ip man regarded wing chun as a sport.
IMO, wc can be adapted for sport with good coaching, training and internalizing the rules of a specific sport. Some I know have done that but I don't have film reels. there are "stills" here and there. Wing chun is IMO not for the masses. You craft a wing chunner one by one.

For some An old wc and TCMA saying applies-I know them but they don't know me.

Yes- and I have heard the arguments about and critiques of insularity.

Not everyone who have defended themselves feel the need for public display.


joy

I agree that boxing is a sport, though it can transcend it.
My point is that, while we typiclaly see boxing vs boxing or judo VS judo or MT vs MT, we see that because they are sports and fighters train to fight "each other".
That is NOT the case with WC ( or any other TMA), where fighters are suppose to train to fight OTHER systems.
SO why don't we see that in clips as much as we see WC vs WC, or more correctly, WC chi sao VS WC chi sao?

[Vajramusti]

I agree that boxing is a sport, though it can transcend it.
My point is that, while we typiclaly see boxing vs boxing or judo VS judo or MT vs MT, we see that because they are sports and fighters train to fight "each other".
That is NOT the case with WC ( or any other TMA), where fighters are suppose to train to fight OTHER systems.
SO why don't we see that in clips as much as we see WC vs WC, or more correctly, WC chi sao VS WC chi sao?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanjuro- I can't speak for anyone else and do not intend to get into the frequent jabberwocky
on this chat site. But some considered opinions on your points:
1.yes- boxing can transcend the sport limitations-outside of the ring...if a person does not get too damaged in the ring.

2.I think that wing chun has spread too much for it's own good. This goes for recent marketing
videos by a celestial master. Then there is mass marketing by masters of almightyness.And many end up falling for fools gold and paying for it..

3. Chi sao is highly underestimated. When done well- among other things it teaches timing, distance, power control, structural dynamics, targeting, balance-but above all how to control the first contact initiated by a person or by an opponent. With enough experience- it does not matter
what style the other person is coming from.You train to understand the vectors of power and protect your core. You play your game...not the other person's game.


And- you learn self defense and not how to please others including chat list participants.

Most chi sao clips are put up by advocates or students trying to get some comment or praise for their skills or lineage.
Of course most commentary on almost any clips end up being chewed on by armchair dragons with key boards.

I come here to listen and chat- not to sell or help spread wing chun.I often say--if one cannot get top flight instruction in wing chun-it's better to get top flight instruction in some other activity-than pursue uneven, episodic, long distance or plain mediocre instruction. That may sound like arrogance-not intended. Just giving a POV.

Technology is not always a blessing..TV is loaded with sitcoms and games. And chat lists with trash talking.Back to training. Regarding "self defense"- I haven't done too badly in different circumstances by learning some wing chun.

I don't have video clips... but on my website there is a 2007 JAMA article on stability and mobility.
In the accompanying pics in some clips I am working with an All American grappler who tries to take me down-I show one possibility of dealing with some takedowns or grappling.

Just responding to your comments and not trying to start a discussion.I have to disappear for several days to practice some wing chun and may not have net access.

joy chaudhuri

PS- Ip Man did not chi sao with most of those who drop his name or were short termers in getting instruction.

[sanjuro_ronin]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanjuro- I can't speak for anyone else and do not intend to get into the frequent jabberwocky
on this chat site. But some considered opinions on your points:
1.yes- boxing can transcend the sport limitations-outside of the ring...if a person does not get too damaged in the ring.

2.I think that wing chun has spread too much for it's own good. This goes for recent marketing
videos by a celestial master. Then there is mass marketing by masters of almightyness.And many end up falling for fools gold and paying for it..

3. Chi sao is highly underestimated. When done well- among other things it teaches timing, distance, power control, structural dynamics, targeting, balance-but above all how to control the first contact initiated by a person or by an opponent. With enough experience- it does not matter
what style the other person is coming from.You train to understand the vectors of power and protect your core. You play your game...not the other person's game.


And- you learn self defense and not how to please others including chat list participants.

Most chi sao clips are put up by advocates or students trying to get some comment or praise for their skills or lineage.
Of course most commentary on almost any clips end up being chewed on by armchair dragons with key boards.

I come here to listen and chat- not to sell or help spread wing chun.I often say--if one cannot get top flight instruction in wing chun-it's better to get top flight instruction in some other activity-than pursue uneven, episodic, long distance or plain mediocre instruction. That may sound like arrogance-not intended. Just giving a POV.

Technology is not always a blessing..TV is loaded with sitcoms and games. And chat lists with trash talking.Back to training. Regarding "self defense"- I haven't done too badly in different circumstances by learning some wing chun.

I don't have video clips... but on my website there is a 2007 JAMA article on stability and mobility.
In the accompanying pics in some clips I am working with an All American grappler who tries to take me down-I show one possibility of dealing with some takedowns or grappling.

Just responding to your comments and not trying to start a discussion.I have to disappear for several days to practice some wing chun and may not have net access.

joy chaudhuri

PS- Ip Man did not chi sao with most of those who drop his name or were short termers in getting instruction.

As always Joy, it is a pleasure hearing your opinion on these matters.

[Graham H]

@ Kev and Sean!!!

Most (not all) of the people that post on here are crazy! Some of the ideas posted are absurd!! There is enough craziness in the world and this forum is an advertisment board for it!! No point in me listing all the names!!

Some very well respected people have left this forum. You know them, they are our peers so lets leave the rest to it eh coz I'm sure they will appreciate it.

For the others......it doesnt matter how much you add your own flavours to sh*t.....it will always be sh*t!!!

Toodle pip!! :)

[k gledhill]

@ Kev and Sean!!!

Most (not all) of the people that post on here are crazy! Some of the ideas posted are absurd!! There is enough craziness in the world and this forum is an advertisment board for it!! No point in me listing all the names!!

Some very well respected people have left this forum. You know them, they are our peers so lets leave the rest to it eh coz I'm sure they will appreciate it.

For the others......it doesnt matter how much you add your own flavours to sh*t.....it will always be sh*t!!!

Toodle pip!! :)


This thread flamed out way back :D

[GlennR]

This thread flamed out way back :D


No this thread, as all the others you and Graham are involved in, burn out as the forum as a whole sees 2 guys with zero respect for anything non-pb.

You style is to ignore any questions or comments you feel incapable to deal with ("snake bites" last post to you is a point in case, and AN was right that was a low comment) and your sidekick jumps in with basically childish insults.

As supposed instructors in your style, you have an opportunity to converse at an adult and mature way and hopefully exhange ideas and experiences. You choose not to.

Fine. Thats your choice.

But if it appears ( in your mind) you have "won", its more likely the majority of people watching here are bored stupid with your drivel ,and couldnt be bothered responding anymore

[Graham H]

But if it appears ( in your mind) you have "won", its more likely the majority of people watching here are bored stupid with your drivel ,and couldnt be bothered responding anymore

Hopefully!! xx

[anerlich]

Some very well respected people have left this forum. You know them, they are our peers so lets leave the rest to it eh coz I'm sure they will appreciate it.

So go already. THe three of you can set up your own forum, post Bayer Youtube vids to each other and blow sunshine up each other's a$$es non-stop, without any pesky naysayers.

And Graham can use lots of exclamation marks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Graham H]

So go already. THe three of you can set up your own forum, post Bayer Youtube vids to each other and blow sunshine up each other's a$$es non-stop, without any pesky naysayers.

And Graham can use lots of exclamation marks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ha ha ya big tit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!