Different Styles of Tai Chi FIST at a glance?

[CYMac]

So, as my forms collection goes, here are some cool comparison of different STYLEs of taichi (FIST ONLY IN THIS SECTION) that I do and did...just sharing~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PTEtFb5dfM
Tin Yat Taichi 108 Form 天一太極拳

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zJaaQdVQCQ
Chan Style Taichi 18 Form 陳式太極十八式

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q88evZlaQI
Chan Style (old form #1) 陳式老架一路

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TOi2REdMNY
Chan Style (old form #2) 陳式老架二路

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aypBmBrg-78
Yang Style Taichi 16 Form 楊式太極十六式

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gFaKUL1RY4
Yang Style Taichi 24 Form 楊式太極二十四式

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElzR9XDB6Gk
Wu (Ng) Style Taichi 37 Form 吳式太極三十七勢

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usTpRYRR0Oo
Mo Style Taichi 13 Form 武式太極十三勢

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns2JpOqK_kA
Suen Style 97 Form 孫式太極九十七式

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbJFhcELg60
Wudang Taichi 13 Form 武當太極十三式

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvWdnu7QW5U
Wudang Taichi 18 Form 武當太極十八式

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB0_3r3eSS4
Wudang Taichi 28 Form 武當太極二十八式

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud-HSwiuG4Q
Wudang Taichi 38 Form 武當太極三十八式

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cICMblFq83A
Wudang San Fung Taichi 42 Form 武當三豐太極 42 式

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnOCIDlMX2A
Wudang San Fung Taichi 108 Form 武當三豐太極 108 式

[taai gihk yahn]

smh.......

[CYMac]

smh.......

Don't you like this taichi all in one? yeah, it's so great! :)

[wenshu]

They finally kicked you out of the lobby I see.

[CYMac]

They finally kicked you out of the lobby I see.

Not really, I just change places to video record it to make it less boring.

[taai gihk yahn]

Don't you like this taichi all in one? yeah, it's so great! :)

it's like 15 different flavors of room-temperature vanilla ice-cream...

[CYMac]

it's like 15 different flavors of room-temperature vanilla ice-cream...

The thing is.. you are loving my posts!

[taai gihk yahn]

The thing is.. you are loving my posts!

umm..........


































































no

[CYMac]

To all above..

Why don't you guys really be serious and share some of your TaiChi forms video? I am just posting what I know and have video recorded to share with all. But it would be nice to see others also doing it as well. I do know more TaiChi forms than the above list but i have not video recorded them down and so they are not on the YouTube yet. I will surely do record them later on in the future and share them as well.

Talking about TaiChi, I kind of like my own lineage "Tin Yat Lineage"'s Taichi the most (yeah, of course!) because it is very unique, and it is not too "slow and old" looking, which is cool. PLUS it is what taught to me by Taoverse Deity as well (ignore this part if you don't believe me), so it is something special to me.

The next on the list is the WuDang style. WuDang style taichi is very fun to do because the variations in hands movements and techniques is very cool and massive, there are lots of techniques in there as well while giving you a very cool ancient and antique vibe, a big contrast to the yang style. This style remind you that "taichi is really for fighting", and not just "old man in the park" kind of kungfu.

What's your favorite style of taichi and why?

Btw, I have done Yang style taichi for over 15 yrs, but turns out the Wudang taichi really beat the style out of my list... I like the Wudang more than the yang's style very much, not only because of the forms, but also the internal part as well, it's more indepth and you are more agile and mobile with it as well.

Wudang masters are really good at kungfu I can say, they are 24/7 professionals. You can even see them on Youtube and they are performing very nicely for all to see!

[Juan Alvarez]

Wow. You seem to know a lot of different forms. The only problem I see is that you look like a noob in all of them. Do you train in one more than the others? If not, maybe you should.

[taai gihk yahn]

wow. You seem to know a lot of different forms. The only problem i see is that you look like a noob in all of them. Do you train in one more than the others? If not, maybe you should.

lololol!!!

[Darthlawyer]

Wow. You seem to know a lot of different forms. The only problem I see is that you look like a noob in all of them. Do you train in one more than the others? If not, maybe you should.

That's not fair, in some he looks like a Pilsbury Doughboy.

[Sean66]

Ok, CYMac.
Here is a video of me doing the traditional Sun form. I noticed your Sun style video, so maybe you can appreciate it.

Please forgive me though - I didn't learn it through divine intervention and I have slightly different tastes in music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uuKOIO7ztU

[taai gihk yahn]

Ok, CYMac.
Here is a video of me doing the traditional Sun form. I noticed your Sun style video, so maybe you can appreciate it.

Please forgive me though - I didn't learn it through divine intervention and I have slightly different tastes in music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uuKOIO7ztU

nice music; very appropo;

clearly, you are NOT a Celestial Master; :rolleyes:

since you undertook the daunting task of learning from a book / video, w /out benefit of a teacher - which I commend you on, it's a hard thing to do! if I make one suggestion (and certainly, please feel free to disregard it): you appear to have a solid framework in place - but one can see the gaps between the girders; if you have an interest in filing in those gaps, consider the form in context of continuity as opposed to differentiation: meaning that, right now, the moves clearly have a begining and an end; however, perhaps consider how one might develop a continuity that begins at the beginning of the form and concludes at the end, as opposed to only within one move;

as my teacher would say, to make mashed potatos, one has to cook the potato first; then you need to chop it up, and then whip it until all the lumps dissapear - my sense is that your mashed potatos are kinda lumpy...

as a "clue", consider the movement where you step up and sepearte / bringtogether your palms: from a "qigong" perspective, what drives that movement? what does it "represent", what does it "engage"? in other words, it's not just moving hands together / apart - something "internal" supports that movement (which occurs at level of middle dantian, btw, hint, hint);

I'm not trying to be obscure, I'm not trying to be pedantic, avuncular, condescening, etc. - just throwing around some thoughts on how to move your movement into more of a "flow" state, if that is something in which you are interested (and you may not be, of course - none of what I say may apply to you at all, i may be completely off base!);

[Sean66]

Thanks for the advice, taai.

I couldn't agree with you more. Continuity of movement while preserving the proper structure/framework is something I continue to work on. And concentrating on "what drives the movement", as you aptly put it, definitely helps.

I've been doing Yang style taijiquan for many years, and decided to pick up a little Sun style when I noticed Tim Cartmell's book and dvd series on the subject (great resource material). Takes time to get into "the groove" of a different style, especially when you don't have a good teacher around. So I especially appreciate the constructive criticism!
Thanks!

Cheers,
Sean

[taai gihk yahn]

I especially appreciate the constructive criticism!

ugh - it's not criticism: that would suggest I am "teaching", which Im not - it's just thought stimulation, my observations made manifest (!) - take it as such or leave it as such; but I appreciate your graciousness in regards to giving it due consideration, and it seems to be relevant to where you are "at", so if it is of use for you, than that's cool;

[CYMac]

Ok, CYMac.
Here is a video of me doing the traditional Sun form. I noticed your Sun style video, so maybe you can appreciate it.

Please forgive me though - I didn't learn it through divine intervention and I have slightly different tastes in music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uuKOIO7ztU

Great to see someone finally posting their own form! Congrat on the brave move! As you may want to hear abit from what I would say..

The level of your body move too much up and down and the palms are kind of stiffed. Basically, I turned my speaker off and so I can't hear your music, sorry for that! But overall, quite good for a westerner as I have seen. I just don't like the stiffness with the palms and hands, looks like they are kind of hanging by themselves. But anyway, it's just IMO. I do like your video though, so I give you a thumb up on the youtube!

[CYMac]

Here I would like to again thanks Sean66 for the video contribution, I am sure this will be a very good start. The kungfu form nourish with kungfu materials is always pleasant and I am proud of you Sean! Continue to post video of yourself, I am enjoying it too! How about your yang style, did you video record it too?

Oh, I just saw your wingchun too, good video!

[taai gihk yahn]

But overall, quite good for a westerner
great; another racist shows his true "colors" on the forum...

[taai gihk yahn]

concentrating on "what drives the movement", as you aptly put it, definitely helps.
since we're just talking about it, I think that this is the more interesting part (it's not about keeping your body on one level or about your hands being stiff - these are all "external" markers, pointing them out doesn't really get to the heart of the issue; and, as regards the former, body not moving up and dow, is a silly "taichism" that makes no sense - my sifu never taught this way in fact - I mean, where in all the rest of normal human movement does one keep the body the same level? this is absurd, it's natural to go up and down when moving, why any different in taichi?), if one wants to talk about "internal", and as regards what drives the movement - we can consider a few things: volitional movement of the large skeletal musculature, movement of the breath (which is still muscular, but is mediated by a mix of voluntary and involuntary control mechanisms that dominate at various times), involuntary muscular functions (mediated by the autonomic nervous system) and the response of non-contractile tissue (connective tissue matrix); one can also talk about cellular respiration, but that might be a bit of a stretch to factor into the mix...or not...

anyway, this is just a "rough" breakdown, but I think it's useful, insofar as it looks at different types of body structures and what controls them; the idea, I think, is to consider how to unify all of these - how does one synchronize the movement of large skeletal muscle with the breath, the "innards" (e.g. - muscles of digestion) and the "movement" of connective tissue matrix? this, of course, is not so much about fighting (although I suppose that could happen when fighting), it's about moving with full integration for its own sake, which is, I believe, the "point" of moving slowly (at least at first) - it gives one the chance to "listen" to what these various systems are saying, to feel the frequencies at which they are oscillating, and to allow the opportunity for them to synchronize and "move" together - which, I think is a natural thing, it can happen in other situations, not just when doing taichi, as it is programmed into us in order to support the inate drive towards homeostasis; but it seems that taichi is one type of movement that allows us to get into that place;

again, I think that opening / closing move w the palms that features large t/o the Sun form is an indicator of this integrative drive: at level of middle dantian, I think it's a touchstone for 'organizing" these different systems - sort of like bringing it all back to home base afer having done a bunch of other movmements...

[Sean66]

Great post.

In regards to the body moving up and down, this is actually a conscious effort on my part. The idea being that increasing the space between the thigh and the trunk opens the kua and serves to produce a natural generation of power. In any case, it feels very natural to me to move this way.


sort of like bringing it all back to home base afer having done a bunch of other movmements...

This is how I see it as well. Opening and closing hands is a moment to concentrate on and check one's posture (especially the shoulders and chest) before moving on.

By the way, taai, what style of taijiquan do you practice?

[CYMac]

Great post.

In regards to the body moving up and down, this is actually a conscious effort on my part. The idea being that increasing the space between the thigh and the trunk opens the kua and serves to produce a natural generation of power. In any case, it feels very natural to me to move this way.



This is how I see it as well. Opening and closing hands is a moment to concentrate on and check one's posture (especially the shoulders and chest) before moving on.

By the way, taai, what style of taijiquan do you practice?

Of course, everybody have their own preference in Taichi, and so I agree with you. Doing taichi your way works for you then it's a good way for you. I am sure you do enjoy the taichi vibe too! Which one you enjoy doing more? the sun or the yang style? have you practiced other styles of taichi?

[Juan Alvarez]

D@mn it! I wish I could do something to make you proud of me too!

[CYMac]

D@mn it! I wish I could do something to make you proud of me too!

Show yourself doing taichi~

It's kind of funny that when these kind of exchange of videos of people doing taichi comes up, people talk more than showing, so I give Sean a thumbs up for showing his taichi, which is brave and good. I wish others who talk a lot can have the guts to show too, that will make it more interesting and meaningful instead of just knowing how to criticize people without actually being able to show it themselves.

[Juan Alvarez]

And then you would be proud of me? Oh, goodie!

[taai gihk yahn]

Great post.
thanks


In regards to the body moving up and down, this is actually a conscious effort on my part. The idea being that increasing the space between the thigh and the trunk opens the kua and serves to produce a natural generation of power. In any case, it feels very natural to me to move this way.
I agree 100%; on a more mundane level, it is important for stimuating lymphatic flow / venous return, especially at inguinal crease (kua)


This is how I see it as well. Opening and closing hands is a moment to concentrate on and check one's posture (especially the shoulders and chest) before moving on.
cool;


By the way, taai, what style of taijiquan do you practice?
it is an "old" Yang style - my teacher's (qigongtherapy.com), teacher's teacher studied w Yang Lu Chan and learned an older version of the form; it's similar to the "standard" form, but has some other "stuff" in it (e.g. - jumping kicks, low sweeps); unfortunately, i only know one form that I have been refining for 15 yrs. - it's maybe not as exciting as doing 15 different versions, but that's just me...

[taai gihk yahn]

Show yourself doing taichi~

It's kind of funny that when these kind of exchange of videos of people doing taichi comes up, people talk more than showing, so I give Sean a thumbs up for showing his taichi, which is brave and good. I wish others who talk a lot can have the guts to show too, that will make it more interesting and meaningful instead of just knowing how to criticize people without actually being able to show it themselves.

lol; seems that Sean and I are having a productive dialogue that you can't even follow, so you have to fall back on a lame argument; go practice your 500 forms...

[CYMac]

lol; seems that Sean and I are having a productive dialogue that you can't even follow, so you have to fall back on a lame argument; go practice your 500 forms...

The original yang style form have 37 movements, and it's not the long form either. Plus if you know about yang style, you should have heard about the "fast form" in the tung ying kit style haven't you?

[taai gihk yahn]

The original yang style form have 37 movements, and it's not the long form either.
actualy, the "original" form has 13 movements (why 13? there's a very Taoist question for you)


Plus if you know about yang style, you should have heard about the "fast form" in the tung ying kit style haven't you?
my teacher's teacher was very good friends with Master Tung, so yes, I've "heard" of it...:rolleyes:

[CYMac]

actualy, the "original" form has 13 movements (why 13? there's a very Taoist question for you)


my teacher's teacher was very good friends with Master Tung, so yes, I've "heard" of it...:rolleyes:

Why 13? hahahaha! I just love that question!

I do know the tung's fast form as well, might be cool to exchange ideas with your original 13 form.

[KC Elbows]

Following a tangent here.

As to views on dropping and/or rising, if the hips stay the same height always, this means that the kua are bearing the resistance that exists in the potential energy gravity always puts on us, which means part of the musculature and structure is working against this and not towards the technique.

If one drops in a swooping manner forward, rising at the end by the natural transition into a bow stance from a rear stance, one can capture that potential energy, and force it into the path of least resistance, forward. Additionally, one may then time dropping under another's center of gravity, whereas, in level footwork, one would always need a lower stance, an impossibility for a tall fighter using level waist theory against an equal but shorter fighter, whose stance, being equal in skill and strength, will always be under the taller fighters.

If one leaves the hips level and, from a forward position like a bow stance, must shift back to a rear weighted position, and the hips are level the whole time, then momentum shifts back in exactly the way that the rear leg is not stable in bearing, like sliding straight back on a chair with wheels, it is not the wheels that make you continue to roll backward at the end, it is the kinetic energy backwards. If, in the same manner(pressing back on the lead leg), one rises in an arc over the top, and then sinks into the rear weighted stance, one transitions into a secure stance without momentum driving further backward.

These are just observations. It is my view that level waist work cannot manage kinetic energy, or harness potential energy where gravity is concerned, and given this, its chances of harnessing more metaphysical energies seems unlikely.

Additionally, the idea that level waist work hides intentions, while interesting as a concept, in practice does not seem as effective to me as constantly changeable waist height. It is easier to lose track of a versatile opponent than a predictable one, and choosing one aspect is, by definition, predictable.

Taoism scoffs at alwayses and nevers for logical reasons, and philosophical taoism scoffs at the supernatural for good reasons. It seems to me more fruitful to be sublime at the ordinary, as a martial artist, a person, and a taoist, than to pursue vain superhumanisms.

[taai gihk yahn]

Why 13? hahahaha! I just love that question!
Yet interestingly enough, you do not answer it; it seems that for a Celestial Master that would be easy (and if you didn't know you could always ask you Taoverse Deity); why is that?


I do know the tung's fast form as well,
Why does that not surprise me?


might be cool to exchange ideas with your original 13 form.
as I am not a fellow Master, I doubt that I would have any information of interest to you to exchange; anyway, it's not "my" form, as unlike the sword form i posted, I didnt create it; but if you really were looking for some insight on it, you could contact my sifu, he would be happy to receive your inquiry

[Scott R. Brown]

D@mn it! I wish I could do something to make you proud of me too!

I am proud of you just the way you are!!!:)


Following a tangent here.

As to views on dropping and/or rising, if the hips stay the same height always, this means that the kua are bearing the resistance that exists in the potential energy gravity always puts on us, which means part of the musculature and structure is working against this and not towards the technique.

If one drops in a swooping manner forward, rising at the end by the natural transition into a bow stance from a rear stance, one can capture that potential energy, and force it into the path of least resistance, forward. Additionally, one may then time dropping under another's center of gravity, whereas, in level footwork, one would always need a lower stance, an impossibility for a tall fighter using level waist theory against an equal but shorter fighter, whose stance, being equal in skill and strength, will always be under the taller fighters.

If one leaves the hips level and, from a forward position like a bow stance, must shift back to a rear weighted position, and the hips are level the whole time, then momentum shifts back in exactly the way that the rear leg is not stable in bearing, like sliding straight back on a chair with wheels, it is not the wheels that make you continue to roll backward at the end, it is the kinetic energy backwards. If, in the same manner(pressing back on the lead leg), one rises in an arc over the top, and then sinks into the rear weighted stance, one transitions into a secure stance without momentum driving further backward.

These are just observations. It is my view that level waist work cannot manage kinetic energy, or harness potential energy where gravity is concerned, and given this, its chances of harnessing more metaphysical energies seems unlikely.

Additionally, the idea that level waist work hides intentions, while interesting as a concept, in practice does not seem as effective to me as constantly changeable waist height. It is easier to lose track of a versatile opponent than a predictable one, and choosing one aspect is, by definition, predictable.

Taoism scoffs at alwayses and nevers for logical reasons, and philosophical taoism scoffs at the supernatural for good reasons. It seems to me more fruitful to be sublime at the ordinary, as a martial artist, a person, and a taoist, than to pursue vain superhumanisms.

A very thoughtful post KC!

My only problem with rising before one sinks is that it provides an opportunity for a sensitive opponent to take advantage of the rising, retreating movement. This is a characteristic exploited in Aikido and akijujutsu.

When you shift your weight up and back you are still producing momentum and the rise makes it easy for the opponent to continue you on your rise and retreat with nothing more than a slight push up and back!

I am not intending to nitpick however, all movements create opportunities for an opponent to exploit a weakness that is a consequence of that particular move.

[taai gihk yahn]

if the hips stay the same height always, this means that the kua are bearing the resistance that exists in the potential energy gravity always puts on us, which means part of the musculature and structure is working against this and not towards the technique.
precisely! it ignores the necesarilly sinusoidal nature of"correct" movement;


If one drops in a swooping manner forward, rising at the end by the natural transition into a bow stance from a rear stance, one can capture that potential energy, and force it into the path of least resistance, forward.
this is actualy how we transition into "brush knee" movement: start mid-level, "scoop" low and back up at the end - sort of a "wave" like movement; also, when we do "cloud hands" (which we call bear-walk), it's the same - there is a shift in level along a vertical axis throughout the movement;

[taai gihk yahn]

I am not intending to nitpick however, all movements create opportunities for an opponent to exploit a weakness that is a consequence of that particular move.

indeed - and this can relate to even cellular-level movement: some years ago, an aikido black belt joined our school; we were doing some push-hands basics, and my sifu paired me up w the guy, and then asked me to "demonstrate" to the class how to move the guy w/out using any force (well, of course there would be force, but anyway...); so, he gets into an aikido stance, an basically doesn't "give" me anything to use to move him with; so I cheated - I "listened" to the oscillation of his connective tissue matrix, and when it went into an "exhlation" phase, I used the "momentum" it generated to off-balance him - he was very surprised - he had lost his center and didn't even know it!

this is a true story, really; I am savant-like in my listening skills!

[Scott R. Brown]

indeed - and this can relate to even cellular-level movement: some years ago, an aikido black belt joined our school; we were doing some push-hands basics, and my sifu paired me up w the guy, and then asked me to "demonstrate" to the class how to move the guy w/out using any force (well, of course there would be force, but anyway...); so, he gets into an aikido stance, an basically doesn't "give" me anything to use to move him with; so I cheated - I "listened" to the oscillation of his connective tissue matrix, and when it went into an "exhlation" phase, I used the "momentum" it generated to off-balance him - he was very surprised - he had lost his center and didn't even know it!

this is a true story, really; I am savant-like in my listening skills!

EXACTLY!!!!!!! And well stated! I AM impressed because I haven't found too many people that are aware that they can use the opponents breathing against him!:):):)

[sanjuro_ronin]

indeed - and this can relate to even cellular-level movement: some years ago, an aikido black belt joined our school; we were doing some push-hands basics, and my sifu paired me up w the guy, and then asked me to "demonstrate" to the class how to move the guy w/out using any force (well, of course there would be force, but anyway...); so, he gets into an aikido stance, an basically doesn't "give" me anything to use to move him with; so I cheated - I "listened" to the oscillation of his connective tissue matrix, and when it went into an "exhlation" phase, I used the "momentum" it generated to off-balance him - he was very surprised - he had lost his center and didn't even know it!

this is a true story, really; I am savant-like in my listening skills!

I would have kicked you in the nads while you were listening.
:p

[KC Elbows]

A very thoughtful post KC!

Thanks!


My only problem with rising before one sinks is that it provides an opportunity for a sensitive opponent to take advantage of the rising, retreating movement. This is a characteristic exploited in Aikido and akijujutsu.

When you shift your weight up and back you are still producing momentum and the rise makes it easy for the opponent to continue you on your rise and retreat with nothing more than a slight push up and back!

I am not intending to nitpick however, all movements create opportunities for an opponent to exploit a weakness that is a consequence of that particular move.

Understood. In relation to this, I find it necessary that the hands relate. In the rising, if the opponent seeks to add to that rise, then to sink, my arms should, as my sink occurs, either rise themselves in order to continue the opponent's rise but disconnect it from my center, or in some other way divert it's course or disconnect it from my center.

That said, yes, risk is assumed, but I would suggest that it would be even easier to come forward and rise to someone who does a level waist transition from front to back, because you add to their backward movement and divert it to the rise. I suppose they would need to divert the press, but they still have their own straight back energy to deal with on top of that, and the only way they can get rid of that is linking up to you, so they need to break you from their center AND link up to you, which seems riskier to me. Safer with a glave.

[YouKnowWho]

My only problem with rising before one sinks is that it provides an opportunity for a sensitive opponent to take advantage of the rising, retreating movement.
Borrowing force go both ways. When you raise, your opponent tries to pull you down, you can then borrow his downward force for your sinking. You can think this as "giving before taking".

I do agree that sometime you move your leg back before you move forward, you smart opponent can recognize it and take advantage on you. To hide your intention for your next move is very important in TCMA. The problem is, if you don't show your intention, it's hard to borrow your opponent's force. If you do show your intention, your opponent can borrow your force instead.

[KC Elbows]

precisely! it ignores the necesarilly sinusoidal nature of"correct" movement;


this is actualy how we transition into "brush knee" movement: start mid-level, "scoop" low and back up at the end - sort of a "wave" like movement; also, when we do "cloud hands" (which we call bear-walk), it's the same - there is a shift in level along a vertical axis throughout the movement;

Agreed. Curious if the method I am familiar with has further similarities.

When going from back to front, at the back, I am high and tucked, as I transition into the low middle area, I am transitioning to, for lack of a better term, an arched back, low stance, and at the front, rounded again. At the points where I am tucked, my waist is highest, at the points where I am arched, my waist is at the lowest. Is this consistent with what you do, sort of a spinal whip, I suppose?

Same for from side to side, as you describe in cloud hands?

[KC Elbows]

I would have kicked you in the nads while you were listening.
:p

He would counter with snake creeps.

[KC Elbows]

Borrowing force go both ways. When you raise, your opponent tries to pull you down, you can then borrow his downward force for your sinking. You can think this as "giving before taking".

I do agree that sometime you move your leg back before you move forward, you smart opponent can recognize it and take advantage on you. To hide your intention for your next move is very important in TCMA. The problem is, if you don't show your intention, it's hard to borrow your opponent's force. If you do show your intention, your opponent can borrow your force instead.

I once dated this girl, and I just couldn't get any play. Then, I took her out to lobster. I was afraid she might see the obviousness of my play, but in the moment of all the butter and lobster, she forgot, or perhaps she thought lobster breath might keep me at bay.

Always go to a restaurant that serves mints.

[YouKnowWho]

I once dated this girl, and I just couldn't get any play. Then, I took her out to lobster. I was afraid she might see the obviousness of my play, but in the moment of all the butter and lobster, she forgot, or perhaps she thought lobster breath might keep me at bay.

Always go to a restaurant that serves mints.

I had a guy who always against my proposal. In one meeting I presented 2 plans, plan A and plan B. I like plan A better so I said that I liked plan B instead. He disagreed so we both agreeded that plan A should be the final.

IMO, this is "borrowing force".

[Scott R. Brown]

Understood. In relation to this, I find it necessary that the hands relate. In the rising, if the opponent seeks to add to that rise, then to sink, my arms should, as my sink occurs, either rise themselves in order to continue the opponent's rise but disconnect it from my center, or in some other way divert it's course or disconnect it from my center.

That said, yes, risk is assumed, but I would suggest that it would be even easier to come forward and rise to someone who does a level waist transition from front to back, because you add to their backward movement and divert it to the rise. I suppose they would need to divert the press, but they still have their own straight back energy to deal with on top of that, and the only way they can get rid of that is linking up to you, so they need to break you from their center AND link up to you, which seems riskier to me. Safer with a glave.

In Aikido, or perhaps I should say, in "some" styles of Aikido, this would be accomplished by turning! As you are rising and your opponent entering with an upward push, since you cannot continue rising without losing your balance to the rear, you would turn thus directing your opponents energy past you. Then you would sink to regain your base and follow up behind your opponents forward moving energy!


Borrowing force go both ways. When you raise, your opponent tries to pull you down, you can then borrow his downward force for your sinking. You can think this as "giving before taking".

I do agree that sometime you move your leg back before you move forward, you smart opponent can recognize it and take advantage on you. To hide your intention for your next move is very important in TCMA. The problem is, if you don't show your intention, it's hard to borrow your opponent's force. If you do show your intention, your opponent can borrow your force instead.

In the circumstance I was talking about, your opponent would not try to pull you down, but seek to help you continue your backward and rising movement. He would accomplish this by pushing upward and forward (from his perspective) against your chest or chin. As I mentioned, it takes some sensitivity and agility to accomplish this effectively.

[YouKnowWho]

In the circumstance I was talking about, your opponent would not try to pull you down, but seek to help you continue your backward and rising movement. He would accomplish this by pushing upward and forward (from his perspective) against your chest or chin. As I mentioned, it takes some sensitivity and agility to accomplish this effectively.
When you move, your opponent can either move with you or move against you. You should have plan for both cases before you even do it.

In your example, your opponent is smart enough to move with you. You should borrow his "upward" force and "lift him up".

[Scott R. Brown]

In your example, your opponent is smart enough to move with you. You should borrow his "upward" force and "lift him up".

Except you are already rising and retreating, which puts him in the position of being both beneath you and utilizing a stable base. Since you are both rising and retreating, you are more vulnerable.

But of course, timing is everything!

[KC Elbows]

If Musashi hadn't been willing to risk getting a deer tick bite on his peepee while waiting in the dark to kill some dude who wasn't supposed to be there 'til later, we wouldn't all be talking about how cool he is.

Just sayin'.:D