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eviljungle
10-28-2001, 08:44 PM
Does anyone have any information about Kenpo before it became "Kenpo Karate" or American Kenpo, etc?

I have heard that Kenpo has become 'Americanized' over the years. I'm interested in the ancient kenpo. If I sound totally uneducated about Kenpo, it's because I know next to nothing about it. :p

I would like know about some signature techniques, the distance range of the style, etc. :D

Piccolo Junior
10-29-2001, 02:06 AM
Well, James "murderer of old Japanese people" Mitose's Kosho Ryu Kenpo is bull****.

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no flavour."- Choki Motobu

Aramus
10-29-2001, 02:14 AM
I have a book on this at home. I'll try to summarize what I read a little later for you.

Kenponet.com has information/history and links about kenpo. Ed Parker Americanized Kenpo Karate...In fact, you could call him the Father of American Kenpo Karate
I feel that Kenpo is a system of overkill, using efficient, powerful, well placed strikes in rapid fire succession. Different parts of the hand, the elbow, forearm, feet, knees, even the head is used to strike/control your opponent.
By overkill, I don't mean Kenpoist will try to kill their opponent, a artist is simply taught a string of techniques to finish off opponents assuming the worst case scenerio. The reality is, you might drop your opponent with the first few moves or move and stop. Then again you may have to continue further.

Here is what JWT (John Wayne Taylor) said on another thread...not sure where anymore (sorry):

"There are some real uniting factors, however. First, it's a marial art that works out of a fairly narrow neutral stance. We split the difference between mobility and stability, but as you progress you will get the idea that mobility is the idea. You won't ever see someone stand still and block anything in Kenpo, not at any level. You will see them get off the line of attack, and then block or strike.

You should expect about 80% upper body work. Heavy emphasis is put on the jab, and back knuckle. The bread and butter or an American Kenpoist is his cross or reverse punch. You will also see allot of hooks and uppercuts. But, as noted before, you will throw as many elbows as anything else. You will also work the classic "karate chop". Some schools work this more than others. I work it allot, and I use it allot.

The kicks you are most likely to see are the front leg front kick, allot of the rear leg front kicks, front and rear leg round house kicks, the occassional back kick, a whole hell of allot of knife edge kicks, almost always at the knee. You will also see allot of "scoop kicks" that are thrown in here and there. And at the intermediate levels you will see a great thrusting sweep kick thrown in during allot of entry techniques. Most of the kicks are thrown at or below the waist. Some, like the back kick, are thrown more at the solar plexus level. That said, if you go to Bob White's school you are likely to take allot of hook kicks to the nose. Most schools work knees to the groin, midsection, and leg standing and knees to the head on the ground from the back and side mounts.

You should also expect an experienced AKist to use a single leg, a double leg, and the open guard. Also expect several standing arm locks, a sleeper or two, the full and half nelsons from standing on the ground, a hammer lock standing and on the ground, and the guillotine standing and on the ground.

Kenpo is a "multiple strike" system. We want to hit you, and keep hitting you, until we are done. An American Kenpo artist should always be making contact with the opponent's body. Pushing, pulling, checking, striking, etc. to control the opponent's hight, width, and depth.

Most of the techniques involve WAY overkill. Like he throws a punch and you hit him twice, elbow him,pull a single leg on him, ankle lock or ankle/knee bar, stomp his groin, kick his ribs, then repeatedly stomp and kick his face, neck and collar. (Dance of Death) Or a guy throws a kick and you elbow his temple, kick out his knee, knee him in the back, hammer down on his collar bones, rip his face, claw his eyes, smash his head down into the ground, knee his face, and then stomp hif face and collar bone. (Deflecting Hammer graft to Back Breaker).

But the likelyhood is that you will NEVER get the whole technique off. Most likely that they will drop with that elbow to the temple, or whatever your first or second strike is. It's more likelyt that you will get a couple of strikes in and then have to change position. So you learn all of that stuff to keep strikes and attacks comming and also to learn how to move from one position to the next. An American Kenpoist should always be thinking about where he is in relation to his opponent first and foremost.

And most of the fighting is done from very close range, almost within clinch range, or actaully within the clinch. AK does a whole hell of allot of work from the clinch.

And the hallmark of any AK school, especially if you've had an instructor that trained directly under Ed Parker, is allot of full contact sparring. Every student HAS to spar. That's where we loose most of our students. Different schools use different rules, but most of them spar pretty hard.

As far as instructors, I have allot of resources up at www.kenpoworld.com (http://www.kenpoworld.com)

Come by and take a look at the links of schools and organizations, and take a look at some of the intructor interviews.

Does anyone have any information about Kenpo before it became "Kenpo Karate" or American Kenpo, etc?
I have heard that Kenpo has become 'Americanized' over the years. I'm interested in the ancient kenpo. If I sound totally uneducated about Kenpo, it's because I know next to nothing about it.

I would like know about some signature techniques, the distance range of the style, etc.

don bohrer
10-29-2001, 02:41 AM
This site should help. In addition to an informative site he has a book on kenpo. I do have it and it looks pretty good. This guy seems like he has it together.

don bohrer
10-29-2001, 06:18 AM
Hm, don't I feel stupid. Must be one to many kicks to the head. Here's that site I mentioned.
Soke Durbin, web page (http://www.kempo.4mg.com/sokeart.html)

Aramus
10-29-2001, 06:53 AM
This is just what I have read in one book, other books, websites on Kempo/Kenpo will have different ideas/information.

Kempo can be looked at from 3 perspectives: 1. Chinese Kenpo called Shorinji Kempo in Japanese. 2. Jikempo which is a mix of Chinese Kenpo and Japanese martial arts. Examples: Kosho-ryu Kempo taught by Mitose family (not just James) and Sato-ryu Kempo taught by Seiko Fujita.
3. Okinawan Karate and Japanese Jujitsu and Kenpo.

The oldest form of Kempo is Shaolinssu Quan (Chinese Kenpo), referred to in Japanese as Shorinji Kempo. It spread from China and the name changed as it entered new countries. The ancient art was primarliy a fist and palm art.

It is accepted that each country adapted it to its environment.
Okinawa: Introduced 5 animal forms to Shorniji Kempo. Okinawans with their warmer climate and knowledge of karate, emphasized striking since light clothes were worn.

Japan:
1. Some Japanese blended okinawan art with some forms of jujitsu with the footwork of kendo. Two examples are: Nippon Kempo and goshindo.
2. Temple Martial arts. Buddhist visit/stay at Japanese Temples, practice martial arts along with their faith. They combined Chinese Kenpo (their art) with the indigenous art of jujitsu based skills and weapon arts. Today this is called Jikempo.
Armor and the cold winter clothing helped lessen the effects of strikes so joint locks, grappling, and throws were used more than strikes (generally speaking).
OK, I'm tired...I'll add more later (hopefully) from other books and sites.
Hope this helps a little.

Ironpig
10-29-2001, 05:25 PM
So much crap and commercial lies before you get back to the truth of it.

After about ten years of research I find the version of events as given by Bruce Jutchnik to be the most accurate. He was also one of the only people to go back and video interview the old masters from the original school in Hawwaii like Thomas SH Young.

Check out the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai's website, they certainly have the most correct version of the early history.

As for the murder comment, It was one of Mitose's students that initiated that event, was responsible for it and then turned states evidence to try to get off on the charge.

That student lives well today on the blood of his teacher, teaching Kempo. (apparently he has no guilt for the murder he commited or the teacher he ****ed with his actions, which he was wholly responsible for)

The person who prosecuted Mitose was the same DA who prosecuted Manson, and used the same cultist theory. Mitose died in prison, but was able to reach out to a few students and set them on the right track.

This is the single most incestuous question for a Kempo practitioner to answer: who taught you? who taught them? where does this come from?

Parker learned from Chow, who learned from Mitose, but was promoted to First Dan by Young, not Mitose. (Chow was never recognized as a black belt by Mitose, he was promoted by Young after Mitose left for the mainland)

See how this becomes an uncomfortable triangle? How many things have I stated make people who study uncomfortable?

The connection is already tenuous to Shorinji Kempo after only two generations. How bad will it become as time goes on?

Thomas Mitose was given his Menkyo kaidan by Bruce Jutchnik, who gave it to Mitose's son against his fathers wishes.

I have seen the video interviews with the old masters from that time, there are many things they said that SHOULD make a modern practitioner ask alot of questions.

Parker stands on his own merits, he was an artistic genious with great natural talent for combative arts. He learned from Chow and expanded on that knowlege and made a martial art that was unique and broad.

Hope some of this was of use to someone.

Peace

just a few pennies from a pig.....
-"bigger is BIGGER"

IronPig

don bohrer
10-30-2001, 04:11 AM
Here is a rather long article on Mitose. Perhaps it will shed some light?
James Masayoshi Mitose Article by Soke Durbin (http://www.kempo.4mg.com/articles/mitose.htm)

Let me know if this helps.

eviljungle
10-31-2001, 04:53 PM
Does anyone know of any information available such as videos or websites available on Kenpo before it became 'american kenpo' or 'kenpo karate', back when it was just Kenpo? :)

gfhegel21
10-31-2001, 07:35 PM
Beware, Durbin is known as a fraud.

JWTAYLOR
11-01-2001, 08:24 PM
There wasn't really a time it was just "Kenpo". "Kenpo" is the Japanese way of saying "Chuan Fa", or "Fist Law". I have never found, nor have I heard of anyone else reputable to find just a "Kenpo". Before it was in Japan it was "Chuan Fa", and that is a VERY general term, almost as bad as Kung Fu, or after it came to Japan it was called Kenpo Karate or Kosho Ryu Kenpo or another style.

Go to www.tracykarate.com (http://www.tracykarate.com) and start looking there. I also posted an interview up at www.kenpoworld.com (http://www.kenpoworld.com) by Dave Simmons and James Ibrao. Both of these individuals would help you get in touch with some of the roots of Kenpo Karate prior to it's "Americanization". The best history of Kenpo, American or otherwise, that I have ever read is in the recently published book, "The Journey". If you are interested in getting the book do a search for it at www.kenpoworld.com (http://www.kenpoworld.com) and you'll get a couple of places to order it. And as far as I can tell, talking to people that knew him, Mitose was no saint.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

eviljungle
11-02-2001, 04:32 PM
Thanks for the info everybody! :D