offering a limb to survive a knife attack

[Saboi Osmosis]

Have you heard of this before?

someone flashes/waggles a knife towards to and you kind of throw out your arm in an attempt to draw the knife guy towards that limb

[Sihing73]

Have you heard of this before?

someone flashes/waggles a knife towards to and you kind of throw out your arm in an attempt to draw the knife guy towards that limb

Hello,

Not exactly, however when in the Army I was taught one method of using the outside of the arm to deflect/block the blade. The thinking behind that was that one would get cut anyway so try and take a cut on the outside of the arm and put yourself into a position where you could cut them in a vital area.

[SAAMAG]

The best way to handle a knife attack is to control the arm holding the knife when you can't outrun the attacker.

Doing anything else is asking to die. When you offer a limb you're going to get cut and within 3 seconds or so go into shock. If anyone tells you to do that--don't listen to anything else they say. Just leave.

[Phil Redmond]

The logo for my unit in Vietnam was "Death in the Dark". The unit specialized in night attacks often with K Bars. I have to agree that you may have to sacrifice a limb. I've had to use a K-Bar a few times. You may have to sacrifice a limb rather than get cut in the body. Like Dave said you may have to give the attacker the back of your arm. You never want to give the Yin side of the arm because that's where the ligaments are. If your ligaments are severed you may lose movement in that limb if you survive. If you look on my website you'll see a photo of me hold a North Vietnamese Army flag. We got that from hand to hand and bayonet combat. Trying to control an edged weapon is a last ditch effort. While you're trying to control the weapon the other guy is also doing something. I've seen so many knife defense disarm techniques that are useless in the real world. There are only a few simple ways to deal with a knife that require no special training.
I normally don't go there but I'm adamant about this.
Anyone who says anything different hasn't been in a real knife fight. PERIOD!!

[YouKnowWho]

Why is this topic considered as WC subject?

[k gledhill]

VT specializes in Knife fighting . one large blade in each hand . And tactics for fighting that include tactical stabbing, chopping arms, defensive actions that offer the 'edge' as blocking surface. ....

[Phil Redmond]

OMT We got official permission to use that logo. Instead of the Eagle Globe an Anchor (air, land, and sea).
We used a Buzzard standing on an 8 ball with an entrenching tool (shovel) through the middle.
The Buzzard is watching while we get the enemy behind 8 ball and bury them.

[Phil Redmond]

Why is this topic considered as WC subject?
Because there is knife fighting in Wing Chun. Have you ever trained the WC knives? :confused:

[k gledhill]

here is an image your arm can look like ..

[Phil Redmond]

here is an image your arm can look like ..
OK you win.....:eek:

[YouKnowWho]

Because there is knife fighting in Wing Chun. Have you ever trained the WC knives? :confused:

Knife fight exists in all TCMA system. Yes, I train WC too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLzVxRqLDZ8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GAUSyyDBmw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZliYb3FIUg&feature=related

[k gledhill]

Knife fight exists in all TCMA system. Yes, I train WC too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLzVxRqLDZ8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GAUSyyDBmw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZliYb3FIUg&feature=related

I hate to go there, but are you serious with the clips ? the last one is a staged dance...

check this one out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv_xH-yMPsA

[YouKnowWho]

the last one is a staged dance...
The last one is a wrong pick and that's for sure. My point is there is no need to discuss "knife fighting" just within the WC group. It may be more fun to discuss this in the TCMA group instead.

All weapon training should not have any style boundary.

[k gledhill]

That gruesome image above is the result of 'wetting' slang for an injury given for damage 'mars bar' = scar, not death.
Guys will jump on you and wet you in several places for the kicks, then go have a beer after....been there, not a good place to be. Knives are big in the UK. Some guys will put two exacto blades into a handle so when they cut you it leaves a cut that cant be stitched normally because the cuts are parrallel lines =.

[k gledhill]

The last one is a wrong pick and that's for sure. My point is there is no need to discuss "knife fighting" just within the WC group. It may be more fun to discuss this in the TCMA group instead.

All weapon training should not have any style boundary.

made me laugh so its okay with me :D

Agreed, knives are universal in MA . We [vt] also shoot well with triangulation, facing etc...

[Phil Redmond]

I hate to go there, but are you serious with the clips ? the last one is a staged dance...

check this one out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv_xH-yMPsA
I have a pair of those. They can penetrate a car door.

[Phil Redmond]

The last one is a wrong pick and that's for sure. My point is there is no need to discuss "knife fighting" just within the WC group. It may be more fun to discuss this in the TCMA group instead.

All weapon training should not have any style boundary.
This is a WC forum so why not discuss knives on a WC forum since WC has knives?

[Phil Redmond]

I searched for a WC knife thread and couldn't find one. So I could start one or we could continue here...hmmm :cool:

[k gledhill]

I have a pair of those. They can penetrate a car door.

hope he gave up the parking spot after ... :D

[YouKnowWho]

I searched for a WC knife thread and couldn't find one. So I could start one or we could continue here...hmmm :cool:
This is fine. I didn't know that your intention was for WC knife only.

A friend of mine used his hand to grab a smurai sword in Taiwan. His hand was cut badly. Because his courage, he became the leader of his gang group.

[anerlich]

check this one out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv_xH-yMPsA


Nice clip, even without PB in it.

Just about everyone I know who has trained WC with really sharp swords has cut themselves, including severing finger tendons.

I've stuck with blunt ones for training, especially since if I ever pulled sharp ones on anyone for real I'd probably go to jail. Not many guys packing 9' poles in the street around here.

I've got a couple of Cold Steel folders. Nicely made.

[Niersun]

here is an image your arm can look like ..

Done with a Samurai sword. From memory, he was a U.S Police officer that was trained in TMA and thought that his MA background could take on a criminal with wielding the sword.

[k gledhill]

Google 'knife wounds' click images at the top of the menu, they are pretty gruesome so I'm not loading up evisceration images here, you might lose your lunch on the keyboard.
VT knife attacks can deliver eviscerating abdominal wounds while parrying the arm . Its hard to fight back when your tripping over your own intestines.

[Sihing73]

Google 'knife wounds' click images at the top of the menu, they are pretty gruesome so I'm not loading up evisceration images here, you might lose your lunch on the keyboard.
VT knife attacks can deliver eviscerating abdominal wounds while parrying the arm . Its hard to fight back when your tripping over your own intestines.

Okay, lets be for real here for a second ;)

I highly doubt that the majority of edged weapons one will encounter on the street are on par with a sword or WC Butterfly knife. Narurally one would defend against something like that a bit differently.

The most common weapon one will likely encounter on the street will have a blade of less than 4 inches. In many cases one will encounter things like a steak or paring knife, box cutter or the like. As a matter of fact, it is pretty common to find an attacker using something like a screwdriver as a weapon.

Some of those making comments have never been in a knife fight. Honestly, if you think that showing pictures of a sword or large blade attack is relevant than I should post photos of gunshot or artillery damage. Or perhaps I should point out that if I use a Kwan Do or Pudao it is not smart to block with your arm. However, against the most common and likely blade to be faced with on the street, and if not other option exists, it is far better to take a cut on the outside of the arm than, say ones face, thigh or upper arm.

One of the attacks I used to practice was to thrust or slash and hope my opponent parryed or blocked. I would then use the force from his block/parry to redirct the blade to his leg and go for a cut on the inside of the thigh or groin.

A slash has more of a physcological impact as people usually get freaked out seeing a gash with a lot of blood. A thrust often will have far less bleeding as the inury is often internal as far as bleeding goes.

There are plenty of cases where people have been shot and survived but that does not make a gun less of a threat.

The most common injuries from a bladed weapon which result in death are actually thrusts or stbbing type wounds, not slashes. Also, if you check statistics, the FBI did a study a couple of years back, the most common length of blade was less than 4 inches and most often only about 3 inches in length. Quite different than a sword or Butterfly Knife :D

[k gledhill]

Agreed, when I frisked guys at a local south london nightclub we would fill a drawer with knives around 4-5" easily concealed in pockets to carry around , carpet cutters, etc...rarely a machette :D and less likely buttefly knives. Occasionally a guy would have a 12" steak knife and not want to let it go either, 6 guys on him trying to break his 'gorilla' grip makes you realize a lot of the gym stuff done in a nice safe environment is worth little on the streets with guys cracked up drunk etc...raging on adrenalin.
Guys also carried screwdrivers, chisels, folding multi-tool pliers, [that's just the security team] :D because they were considered legal and excusable to carry tools, etc...
Some used broken shards of glass hidden in hands as a quick fix to scar guys. One of my best friends had a semi circle of glass shoved in his face for the scarring effect alone. The term 'glassed' is from simply driving a beer glass into a guys face to break it, available in every bar around the world, who needs a knife when you have a weapon in your hand full of beer.
Knife fights sounds like 'west side story' face offs too, it should be more like fights with knives involved.

[bennyvt]

yeh had one mate lose his eye and the other slashed in the face with the same glass. he smashed it in the first guys face putting a shard in his eye ball. then with the brocken glass he put two big slashes in the other guys face with both sides of the broken glass.
But sihing73 is right with the satistics we did all that in arnis and my teacher taught a uni class on violence. So he did lots of research

[trubblman]

Have you heard of this before?

someone flashes/waggles a knife towards to and you kind of throw out your arm in an attempt to draw the knife guy towards that limb

Probably not a valid knife defense vs a trained knife wielder. A trained knife fighter will use gunting to attack the arm once or twice and then slip into your torso or face faster than you can say Jack Robinson. Filipino martial arts do use knife work including disarms.

[bennyvt]

I thought you guys meant more like, if its going for your throat better try take it in the hand. I have done this, it was a box cutter when I was young. He went to stab and not out of any training I put my hand up and it jammed in my finger. Better then neck.
But when learning knife stuff I was always taught to keep the other hand back, arnis its on the chest, when using one weapon. Dont like the idea of baiting him with it but.
But once saw outside of a pub a guy pull a knife on this guy that did TKD. he tried to kick the knife out of his and but the guy just slashed his foot stright through the shoes. Heaps of blood.

[k gledhill]

When I first started VT training i asked my old sifu 'what if a guy pulls a knife ?' . His first words where dont take youre eyes off the knife. Then he picked up a Bic pen and asked me to block the pen as he held it towards me, he inked my arm, then kick him, he inked my leg....
I work with wood , carving, shaping, by hand and always wear a safety glove if using any thing that can come at my hand, metal always beats flesh.

When I was 6 years old a group of local teengers in my neighborhood threw a glass bottle at me, it broke on the ground a foot away from me, I didnt know what they where doing so didnt move, being the tropics I never wore shoes either, a large piece stuck into my ankle and it gushed blood....6 yrs old ;) still have the scar.

[imperialtaichi]

I once asked a guy who trains the Australian Federal Police how to deal with knives. His reply was to get out of range and use the gun.

So I asked him what if you don't have a gun. His reply was "you're f**ked." ;)

[imperialtaichi]

If I'm carrying a knife and someone offers me an arm, I'd say "hey, thanks."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgjGtcBPr8c

[Phil Redmond]

If I'm carrying a knife and someone offers me an arm, I'd say "hey, thanks."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgjGtcBPr8c
It'd be way better than getting stabbed in the torso where your vital organs are.

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzLFquT2jTQ&feature=channel_video_title

[Saboi Osmosis]

This thread turned out good :D

Ive got to agree with the folk saying give up the arm to save the important stuff.

Its only an arm and most of us have two anyway :cool:

[imperialtaichi]

It'd be way better than getting stabbed in the torso where your vital organs are.

Yes, I see your point. But one still has to stop the attacker from continuing his attack. He is not going to stop with one cut.

[imperialtaichi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzLFquT2jTQ&feature=channel_video_title

Excellent! Seen this before but it was removed a while back. Thanks Phil. My assistant's sister routinely carry one in her mouth. One of my friends manages security in Darling Harbour Sydney and he has a lot of interesting stories too.

As I always say, the attacker will not pick on you unless he knows he has an advantage over the victim. One has to be prepared for "surprises".

Reality check for anyone who claims their art is good for using on the streets.

Cheers,
John

[Liddel]

I concur re seizing the weapon and not offerring a limb.

Interesting reading for anyone who hasn't heard of CQB - CQC.

http://www.toddgroup.com/close_combat_articles.html

Half way down the page, dagger disarming 1 and 2.

[imperialtaichi]

I concur re seizing the weapon and not offerring a limb.

Interesting reading for anyone who hasn't heard of CQB - CQC.

http://www.toddgroup.com/close_combat_articles.html

Half way down the page, dagger disarming 1 and 2.

Thanks, nice articles.

Confrontations are ruled by chaos, adrenalin and probability. Techniques fail; the more complex it is, the more chances it will break down.

The only things that one can count on are habits, condition of the body, and mindset.

Cheers,
John

[Phil Redmond]

I concur re seizing the weapon and not offerring a limb.

Interesting reading for anyone who hasn't heard of CQB - CQC.

http://www.toddgroup.com/close_combat_articles.html

Half way down the page, dagger disarming 1 and 2.
Those pics are in no way what I meant. In fact, they are ridiculous. Hench the Xs on the photos.

[Liddel]

Those pics are in no way what I meant. In fact, they are ridiculous. Hench the Xs on the photos.

Totally agree. In no way was my comment linked to you Phil.

The article addresses a CQB approach to Dagger disarming and begins by discussing poor solutions, hence the crosses over the photos....

Read on my friend :o

[wolf3001]

I wouldn't do it but if I was going to be cut I would try to only be cut on the back of the arm. Either way getting cut isn't good. I was cut by accident awhile back I was stabbed through the wrist but more towards the hand and although I bled a lot I quickly grabbed paper towels and put pressure on the wound. It took maybe 30 minutes to get stitched up and what not I felt ok for most of that time but I was setting down with my arm raised above my heart and wasn't moving around. I would say after a couple of minutes fighting you would feel like crap or be dead. I keep away if I can and keep my arms close but my hands up. You have to keep moving and wait for the right time. If they rush you grab them by the arm preferably as close to the weapon as possible and don't let go. We use a bit of Jujitsu for our knife defense. I don't know that Wing Chun has any real major techniques geared towards this most of what I see is Jujitsu style techniques. I use a few Wing Chun blocks combined with a grab from my free hand normally.

[Liddel]

The easiest way to not get cut in the arms is to not offer them up, this is where normal H2H habbits can be bad for you. If you can make space between you and your opponent you should always have your hands close/r to the body.

Note in all the pics within the link i provided the hands are close to the body making the offender focus on cutting the body and even when you then run your techs to defend - as the offender commits to a body attack, an arm is still protecting the vital orgnas by covering the body and turning side on.

This is just one approach there are many, each to thier own. But whatever your method you need some simple techs that can be learnt easily and used against many different types of attacks.

The techs in my example can be used against overhead stabs, thrusts, slashes, in tight spaces or open areas.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

With all due respect anyone who has ever been in a real knife encounter will most likely be the first to admit that when you face a knife you will be cut. Sorry, to disagree or burst anyones bubble, but the reality of things is that when one, or both have a blade, getting cut is to be expected. Having said that, the concept of offering a limb is to minimze where one gets cut as much as possible and to minimize the damage. Also, when a limb is offered, the idea is to take a small cut in order to allow you to get a killing or more serious cut/stab/thrust to the opponent.

All of the techniques showing the controlling of the knife hand are mostly unrealistic and will result in getting cut by any competent knife fighter. Someone who knows how to use a knife will not be presenting single attacks but will have a constant flow and move the knife constantly in unpredictable patterns. Or, they will hide the blade until they attack and you won't even know the knife is there until you have been cut.

Try playing around with magic markers and try to write/mark/cut your opponent with the tip. See just how well you can avoid getting marked and then try it again with the idea of taking a cut on the outside of the arm or less vital area in order to allow you to get a fatal or incapacitating blow in. Come back and post here with your experience and the results.

The goal is to not get cut. The reality is that in almost all cases you will get cut. You should prepare yourself mentally as well as physically to accept you will be injured and determine to carry on no matter what.

That is my opinion for what it is worth.

[Liddel]

All of the techniques showing the controlling of the knife hand are mostly unrealistic and will result in getting cut by any competent knife fighter. Someone who knows how to use a knife will not be presenting single attacks but will have a constant flow and move the knife constantly in unpredictable patterns..

No bubble to burst Dave, comments welcome.

I dont disagree per say with your comment/s, only to say that you are only looking a still images and that these are techniques employed by individuals with more real life experience than the majority of the members of this forum combined.
They are far from unrealistic in reality but i can totally understand how one comes to this mindset just looking at stills.

You raise good points that ARE addressed when actually learning the techs in person. The methods address repeatitive and constant flow attacks. You just cant address every senario with still images.

I think we can agree that in those situations just as in H2H fighting you have to choose a moment to work your defence and that is in part what you see in the link. Moreover -

The way you/we write a situation/s of addressing a knife fighter basically puts forward the idea " that you are basically f--ked "
and whilst that maybe true in most cases and for most unarmed people "YOU WILL GET CUT". One still has to form a method of dealing with protecting yourself however difficult it maybe.


The goal is to not get cut. The reality is that in almost all cases you will get cut. You should prepare yourself mentally as well as physically to accept you will be injured and determine to carry on no matter what.

Totally agree, and one step towards this is isolated training with a real knife, as well as other methods such as your idea about training with a marker.

So what methods do you advocate for dealing with a trained knife fighter Dave ?

[Sihing73]

So what methods do you advocate for dealing with a trained knife fighter Dave ?

I shoot them, preferably from a distance and more than once :D

[Liddel]

I shoot them, preferably from a distance and more than once :D

You seem like a logical guy so im guessing your aiming for center mass rather than a head shot lol

[k gledhill]

I'm with Dave , double tap + Mozambique to finish.

[Liddel]

I think one should also look at secure holds as well as non secure knife work like seen in the previous clips.
Like if someone grabs a lapel and points the knife in your face, grabs you from behind with arm around your neck knife at your throat, grabs a wrist from side on and points the knife at chest etc etc.

Training these types situations must also be part of you tool box if you serious about defending against knife attacks.

IMO if you accept the fact you will get cut you have to mitigate damage. You can still defend with a cut to the arm and certain parts of the body, slahes yes, penetrating stabs not so much... Ive been taught to turn side on reducing the size of the target and protecting your vital organs etc..

Good on you Xiao3 Meng4 for adding realistic sparring in there, try working more knee stomp slash combos and turning side on to the opponent.. i found it helps big time... but this is just my experience.

[Liddel]

Do you mean turning side-on, bullfighter style, to the oncoming blade

Yes, it has its place and timing of course. Easy to feel when doing the drill seen in your vid.


or adopting a side-on stance throughout the encounter?

No, this negates your experience of having to be more mobile.

My mindset comes from remaining face to face when at a distance to 'show' a large target and as the opponent commits to moving in then change to side on moving off the path of the weapon and work your techs (if all goes to plan :o)

Youll find you need to remain mobile and fluid with range if the attacker is giving mutipul attacks himself which is where the stomp helps maintain distance/range... your leg is longer.

From there turing back to face to face gives you the opportunity to also go from stomp to attack either reverse elbows/hand chops or using the blade if your armed also.


Thanks for the suggestions. :) Yeah, the knee stomp definitely needs more ice-time. I can see Combo-ing it with a slice if I was using a longer blade (mmm, knee stomp DaDao/BJD slice!) although my limited experience suggests to me that the stomp-stab is better when using short blades.

This is true, and i will point out that im in no way an 'expert' but i have picked up these techs from people that are... and they lend well to a VT exponent.

Im still waiting for more detailed explanations from the others about thier techs/approaches, im liking the free flow of ideas on this subject and realise my way aint the only way :o

[jesper]

Hello,

All of the techniques showing the controlling of the knife hand are mostly unrealistic and will result in getting cut by any competent knife fighter. Someone who knows how to use a knife will not be presenting single attacks but will have a constant flow and move the knife constantly in unpredictable patterns. Or, they will hide the blade until they attack and you won't even know the knife is there until you have been cut.
.

Once we had to capture a guy, one of my soldiers had his thumb almost cut off. He didnt even notice he had been cut til we told him and thought he had just blocked a punch

[wolf3001]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaYZI3oCfuA

[rindge]

I am a WC novice at best, but I'll chime in - been years since I posted. Back in college a bunch of us got into a fight outside of a nightclub (under 21 event so I doubt anything was alcohol fueled). Someone on the opposing side pulled out a knife and was attempting to stab a friend who was not looking. Fortunately I was looking and jumped in between the two. If my memory serves me correctly the guy lashed out and I unfortunately / fortunately offered and arm - a bong sao vs something like a pak sao. The knife cut through my skin like butter to the bone. My sifu always warned my not to be too reliant on my bong sao, but I was young and hard headed (and now scarred). While maybe I should have done something different (pak sao etc), I'm glad I offered up that arm because 1. my friend who i was covering for would have taken it in a vital organ and 2. another friend attempted to tackle the guy with the knife and he got shanked right under the armpit - barely missed vital organs.

Several lessons came out of that for me: 1. find new friends to hang with, 2. go back to college, 3. bong sao may not have been the best move but prevented major damage 4. don't tackle people with knives, 5. I have a fun story to constantly tell my kids.

To whoever originally posted my perspective now in life is if you engage in a fight with someone with a knife- run away very fast.

Rindge