Learning Chinese for Kung Fu?

[ShaolinDan]

So, after performing at a cultural event that was entirely in Chinese, the idea has come up for me and some of my training brothers/sisters of trying to learn at least some Chinese.

I know a number of people on this forum have learned varying amounts of Chinese.

Wondering what your opinions are on the payoff vs. costs(temporal mostly I imagine) of learning Chinese for the sake of your kung fu training. (I know it has plenty[and growing] of market value in the business world right now.)

Is it worth the time and effort, or would it be better to spend it other ways?
Do you aim for conversational ability, or just learn useful phrases?
Is it worth it to learn characters, or better just to learn the spoken language?

Obviously just opinion, but I'd like to hear what people have to say. Thanks.

[taai gihk yahn]

it's a great idea in theory; the only thing about learning a language, IMPE, is that unless you have an actual reason for using it, it can be very difficult to make it functional; for example, I studied German formally for four years in HS, and then minored in it in college - but I was never really that functional with it, because I never had much reason to use it; OTOH, my Cantonese, was acquired haphazardly, and without any formal instruction - but because I had to use it to speak to my late sifu, I was reasonably functional in the various contexts that arose relative to the time I spent with him, and if I had to, I could probably communicate reasonably well with it 20 yrs. later;

my point is that if you are going to take time to learn Chinese, you need to have some sort of context in which you have to use it; for example, I don't know where you live, but if there is a Chinese cultural center near you, that might be a good place to try to spend some time engaging in "day to day" chit chat with native speakers (at the very least, make it a point to only speak Chinese if you go into a Chinese restaurant);

good luck and enjoy yourself!

P.S. - I would do all of the above: learn phrases, learn vocabulary so as to make your own sentances, and learn as many characters as possible - actually, you could use the names of techniques as a springboard - learn the characters / pronunciation for them, and you'd be surprised how useful that info can be even in everyday usage...

[SPJ]

http://video.sina.com.cn/m/zb3d_61310209.html

if you may pick up another lingo, it would help you go a long way to understand some of the culture aspect

--

the link is so funny, if you understand some chinese

you may pick up the story line that 3 imperial guards were to take out the flying pig or member of tian di hui or heaven earth association, it was anti qing organisation.

so the donkey, the bull and the dog were out there to search and destroy--

the flying pig was so clumsy that he could not smash the ****roach

he tripped on his apple and toppled the whole inn in the end.

--

laugh so hard.

:)

[Drake]

Or buy the Pimsleur audio CDS and snag an Oxford Mandarin Dictionary.

Also, try getting a book on writing as well. The stroke directions and sequences are actually a bit important.

My Chinese still looks like a 5-year old having a seizure while drawing random shapes.

[wenshu]

www.skritter.com

[mooyingmantis]

ShaolinDan,

What are your goals?

Do you want to pronounce common kung fu words (i.e. jian, shuang, chuan) properly?

Do you want to be able to read a Chinese text?

Do you want to be able to speak to a Chinese person?

If you want to learn the proper pronunciation of a Chinese word http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=translate is all you need:
1. Type an English word in the box and click English ==> Chinese.
2. Look below for proper character and click on the speaker emblem and it will pronounce the word for you.

Learning to read a text will require:
1. Learning to use a Chinese dictionary and mastering the Chinese radicals.
2. Learning Chinese grammar and syntax.

Learning to speak conversationally will require:
1. A good online program (very cheap) or an aid such as Rosetta Stone (very expensive).
2. Constant practice with friends.

WARNING: Mandarin Chinese is the "standard" form of Chinese. However, Beijing Mandarin and Taiwan Mandarin are quite different in pronunciation. You can study Chinese for years with a teacher, but still only learn to pronounce the words in the way that will be understood in one area of China. For example, "elbow" is pronounced joo or joe depending on where you are in China.

So decide on what your goal is, then go from there. :)

[Drake]

Rosetta Stone is complete and utter crap. Unless you want to spend twelve hours, only to be able to say "the boy is under the plane", "the horses run", or "12 blue balls".

Within five minutes of Pimsleur (NO, this is not a friggin' plug. It really does work.) you can already say "Excuse me, may I ask...", and within 20 minutes, say "I cannot speak Mandarin very well.", "Do you speak English?" along with other, practical phrases. Within 5 hours, you'll be asking for directions, places to eat, drink, ask for tea, ask for water, using conjunctions, and understanding other nuances of the language.

I've used both. I say Pimsleur, along with some texts to work on writing and reading.

[SPJ]

pin yin system is good for learning pronounciation.

then xin hua ci dian is a good dictionary

some english/chinese dictionary or software.

--

chinese characters are tough part. it takes times.

but start with gong fu etc etc.

:)

[Drake]

pin yin system is good for learning pronounciation.

then xin hua ci dian is a good dictionary

some english/chinese dictionary or software.

--

chinese characters are tough part. it takes times.

but start with gong fu etc etc.

:)

I would wager audio learning is better, wouldn't you agree?

[David Jamieson]

I would wager audio learning is better, wouldn't you agree?

don't bet on it.

It is dependent upon the persons preferred learning style.
Some people learn well from reading, others from hearing, others from hands on approach, others from mimicry and inculcation and so on and of course combinations of those.

[Drake]

don't bet on it.

It is dependent upon the persons preferred learning style.
Some people learn well from reading, others from hearing, others from hands on approach, others from mimicry and inculcation and so on and of course combinations of those.

But it's a tonal language. Not only that, but there are dozens of dialects. You are applying a broad swathe of learning techniques, meant to be discussed in the context of learning in general, to a very specialized area.

If you don't hear the tones, how on earth are you supposed to be able to mimic them? Guesswork?

[David Jamieson]

But it's a tonal language. Not only that, but there are dozens of dialects. You are applying a broad swathe of learning techniques, meant to be discussed in the context of learning in general, to a very specialized area.

If you don't hear the tones, how on earth are you supposed to be able to mimic them? Guesswork?

yes it is and it is also subject to hundreds of mutually unintelligible dialects.

except for putonghua, so.

If you learn canto, you'll be limited, you basically have to learn whatever dialect it is that your teacher has going on and you have to learn putonghua (mandarin) as well so that you can then actually communicate to people from China who aren't Cantonese...which is actually most of them. lol

if you can read a pronunciation key, then you can do it.

I'm not scrubbing your idea, just saying that it is not the only way.

[wenshu]

don't bet on it.

It is dependent upon the persons preferred learning style.
Some people learn well from reading, others from hearing, others from hands on approach, others from mimicry and inculcation and so on and of course combinations of those.



if you can read a pronunciation key, then you can do it.

I'm not scrubbing your idea, just saying that it is not the only way.

Language Acquisition Fail.

[SPJ]

I would wager audio learning is better, wouldn't you agree?

yes. there are 4 tones in pu tong hua. there are accents everywhere you go.

learning to sing a few chinese songs may help, too.

I learned to sing so many English songs before I learned english and grammar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrK5u5W8afc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nwFMQ0NYSM&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzkcvPfCbHk

I really like kristy lee cook, a cow girl that does cage fight and sings country music, too.

:)

[GeneChing]

Is it worth the time and effort, or would it be better to spend it other ways?
Do you aim for conversational ability, or just learn useful phrases?
Is it worth it to learn characters, or better just to learn the spoken language?
It is always worth it to learn new languages. ALWAYS. Don't fuss about how to learn it. Just start studying it. If don't get very far, at least you learned you have little aptitude for language.

In preparation for my Fencing Provost-at-Arms exam, I had to become familiar with French, Italian and German. I can't speak enough of any of those languages now to even order in a restaurant, but several of my textbooks were in those languages, so I had to get a working understanding. All the fencing terminology was in French or Italian.

Just do it. Don't hesitate. It's not martial to hesitate. :rolleyes:

*And this is from someone who doesn't really speak Chinese*

[lkfmdc]

I will say this (these?)

1. Learning standard chinese in an academic situation may not prepare you for kung fu talk

2. Learning kung fu talk probably won't prepare you for regular conversations

Dialects and regional variations can be a *****

CTS spoke Toisanese, I speak a more standard Cantonese, had trouble talking to a guy from Jungsaan

My Mandarin has cantonese accent and Shanghai variations/vocab (long story), it was great in Shanghai, with Taiwanese we frequently kept saying "what?"

My Shanghai is actually Ningpo... I sound like Chiang Kai Shek

It's a maze, a trecherous maze :D

[Lucas]

havnt read the thread, not gonna, pimsleur approach is awesome for any language

[wenshu]

yes. there are 4 tones in pu tong hua. there are accents everywhere you go.


5 if you count neutral.

The trouble for native English speakers really comes into play with combinations.
2nd followed by 3rd always throws me off.


I will say this (these?)

1. Learning standard chinese in an academic situation may not prepare you for kung fu talk

2. Learning kung fu talk probably won't prepare you for regular conversations



It's a maze, a trecherous maze :D

In most cases it won't prepare you for talking period.

A common complaint among native English speaking foreign exchange students who go to China is how utterly useless what they learned in the classroom and from textbooks was.

With Chinese especially, you have to go native. Learning kung fu terminology in it's specific context will do more to prepare you for everyday conversation than just learning word order and vocabulary.

Back to the original question, yes it absolutely is worth it. Kung fu should be valued most for it's cultural heritage (I am sure we'll have more time to debate it's combat effectiveness, certainly a novel topic in itself. . .) and language is an indispensable part of understanding culture. Not to mention the benefits adult language acquisition has for memory and general long term brain health.

[SPJ]

just pick 2 chinese pop songs

1. tong hua

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbcHJPwB9Eo&feature=related

2. lao shu ai da mi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWwumiY1XM4&feature=related

just sing along

their pronunciations are very standard mandarin.

you would pick up some good and basic pronouciations at least.

yes. accents are nightmares for everyone.

my high school CMA teachers spoke chinese with heavy shan dong accents. I learned mantis, tong bei from them. even within shan dong, they have various accents, too.

---

:)

[David Jamieson]

Language Acquisition Fail.

nay nay. You are failing at understanding the principles of learning, in particular, adult learning which is entirely different than the regular schooling that we give our kids and adolescents.

also, for those of you struggling to break free of learning styles you think are hard and fast I would submit to you that Helen Keller, a blind deaf mute, learned to read, write and speak in the english language and never heard a single thing in her life, not even the song of a bird.

so, before you start throwing out reflective statements such as "fail" about others, do a little homework.

signed Haywood Jablome

[wenshu]

nay nay. You are failing at understanding the principles of learning, in particular, adult learning which is entirely different than the regular schooling that we give our kids and adolescents.

also, for those of you struggling to break free of learning styles you think are hard and fast I would submit to you that Helen Keller, a blind deaf mute, learned to read, write and speak in the english language and never heard a single thing in her life, not even the song of a bird.

so, before you start throwing out reflective statements such as "fail" about others, do a little homework.

signed Haywood Jablome

Recrimination fail.

Homework!? Homework?! I am Homework!

Seriously Hellen Keller?

It took Anne Sullivan 5 years working 24 hours a day to teach her to recognize the word for water.

For the 99.999999999% of adult humans who want to acquire a second language, a private tutor for 3 hours a week let alone a full time companion is a bit cost prohibitive.

Do some cursory research on adult second language acquisition before you reply, but if you really want to argue the possibility of becoming conversant in Mandarin without exposure to everyday usage, feel free.

[Drake]

I will say this (these?)

1. Learning standard chinese in an academic situation may not prepare you for kung fu talk

2. Learning kung fu talk probably won't prepare you for regular conversations

Dialects and regional variations can be a *****

CTS spoke Toisanese, I speak a more standard Cantonese, had trouble talking to a guy from Jungsaan

My Mandarin has cantonese accent and Shanghai variations/vocab (long story), it was great in Shanghai, with Taiwanese we frequently kept saying "what?"

My Shanghai is actually Ningpo... I sound like Chiang Kai Shek

It's a maze, a trecherous maze :D

I'm playing it safe and just using the Commie official version. :D

[GeneChing]

When did my A&P cadaver work, I learned a little Latin. Of course, I didn't get very far. Couldn't order in a restaurant. :rolleyes: Nevertheless it's still very useful because of the root words. Chinese is like that too. Maybe you'll hate it and convert to MMA. Maybe you'll love it so much that you study it deeply and wind up living in China for the rest of your life, ShaolinDan. Study the language. Go dare. Just don't learn Chinese for the sake of your kung fu training. Learn both to go out in the world and apply it to help those in need. Kung fu can be a gateway to a whole other world. That's one of the traditional names for kung fu systems is men (aka moon 門 'gate'). That's your free starter Mandarin lesson for today. First one's free!


It's a maze, a trecherous maze :D So true, oh master of photocrap, so true!

[David Jamieson]

Recrimination fail.

Homework!? Homework?! I am Homework!

Seriously Hellen Keller?

It took Anne Sullivan 5 years working 24 hours a day to teach her to recognize the word for water.

For the 99.999999999% of adult humans who want to acquire a second language, a private tutor for 3 hours a week let alone a full time companion is a bit cost prohibitive.

Do some cursory research on adult second language acquisition before you reply, but if you really want to argue the possibility of becoming conversant in Mandarin without exposure to everyday usage, feel free.

mountains out of mole hills is what you are making.
puffy chest. lol

[ShaolinDan]

Thanks everyone for your great responses. Some very helpful hints.

My teacher is not Chinese, so learning his dialect is not an issue for me.

My immediate goals were/are to learn some basic Mandarin, not conversational, just able to say something polite at cultural events, or to help me get around in China (I anticipate a trip within the next 2 years). Also I would like to have better pronunciation and understanding of all the terms I've come across in my training.

Whether I take it further than that will depend on how much I enjoy the study and the traveling.

[zhugeliang]

ShaolinDan,

I train in wushu and teach Chinese on weekends. Mandarin Chinese would be your best choice since it is the official language in mainland China. In fact when I go to Houston and talk to the Shaolin school coaches they speak very standard Mandarin. However you will find some older Chinese who tend to prefer a dialect like Cantonese or Shanghaiese (like one of my wushu coaches) etc, but for the most part Mandarin dominates.

Something else too, you might want to try to google Confucius Institute and see if they offer classes in your area. Also try the local Asian American center.

I strongly recommend the Chinese Forums as your starting point in starting your Chinese studies. There is even a section for those who are just starting out in learning Chinese and have questions in how to start and go about it. Here is the website:


http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/index

Hope it helps.

[bawang]

the pronouncement of words is not important, its the tone

[David Jamieson]

the pronouncement of words is not important, its the tone

Most of communication is not words.
even when we speak, the words are the least part of the communication.

[omarthefish]

wenshu:

David Jamieson is on the mark: language acquasition...FAIL!

Learning a language as an adult is certainly different from how you learn as a child but the idea that you are really handicapped on the issue because of brain structure and whatnot is complete and utter bull****. It's just the same as learning kung fu: hours in = skill out. Show me an adult who has spent as many hours in 5 years learning Chinese as a 5 year old Chinese child has in his entire life and I will show you an adult with better Chinese than that child. Already seen several.

Immersion is a must but it's not magic. It's just about hour/day of actual practice. I have at least 1 or 2 kids in every class of 55 or so students that speaks English well enough to chat with me and that's just in middle school. .

================================================== =

Next issue:

like Gene said, it's not a binary proposition. Learn as much as you are able to. The largest single obstacle to learning Chinese is the mental block from thinking you have to actually learn Chinese. I speak from experience. I only took Chinese at first because I wanted to study acupuncture and most TCM schools require a semester or two. Well I ended up flunking organic chemistry and couldn't really handle the math required for my BS in physiology so that never happened but I kept up with the Chinese and one day...about 10 years later....I realized I could actually speak the language, not in a "get by" way but actually read and speak fluently.

I am 100% confident that if I set that out as my goal at the beginning I would have given up long ago. I just kept at it because it was kind of cool and eventually I got really good at it. . . kind of like kung fu that way eh?

[SPJ]

the pronouncement of words is not important, its the tone

yes. at first, you learn the pronunciation.

then you learn the different tones

then you learn the characters.

why

b/c different tones with the same sound may mean different words.

b/c many words/characters may have the same sound/tone.

--

just pick up a few words everyday, years later, it will be a huge vocab you learned.

--

:)

[wenshu]

you have no frame of reference here Donny, you are like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know. . .

wenshu:

David Jamieson is on the mark: language acquasition...FAIL!

Learning a language as an adult is certainly different from how you learn as a child but the idea that you are really handicapped on the issue because of brain structure and whatnot is complete and utter bull****. It's just the same as learning kung fu: hours in = skill out. Show me an adult who has spent as many hours in 5 years learning Chinese as a 5 year old Chinese child has in his entire life and I will show you an adult with better Chinese than that child. Already seen several.

Immersion is a must but it's not magic. It's just about hour/day of actual practice. I have at least 1 or 2 kids in every class of 55 or so students that speaks English well enough to chat with me and that's just in middle school. .

================================================== =

Next issue:

like Gene said, it's not a binary proposition. Learn as much as you are able to. The largest single obstacle to learning Chinese is the mental block from thinking you have to actually learn Chinese. I speak from experience. I only took Chinese at first because I wanted to study acupuncture and most TCM schools require a semester or two. Well I ended up flunking organic chemistry and couldn't really handle the math required for my BS in physiology so that never happened but I kept up with the Chinese and one day...about 10 years later....I realized I could actually speak the language, not in a "get by" way but actually read and speak fluently.

I am 100% confident that if I set that out as my goal at the beginning I would have given up long ago. I just kept at it because it was kind of cool and eventually I got really good at it. . . kind of like kung fu that way eh?

Look, if you can't keep up with the conversation you are going to have to go sit at the kids table.

I didn't say anything about the comparative neurophysiology involved in first language acquisition vs. adult second language acquisition. Nor did I mention anything about apparent difficulties of adult SLA vs children.

The argument was about whether or not you can learn language without "hearing it". Immersion is not necessary, of course not.

Someone will not learn to understand or produce spoken language without hearing a native speaker or someone approaching native fluency. If that is from time spent incountry or from practicing with your kung fu teacher doesn't matter.

I didn't say anything about goals.

So dropping out of organic chemistry and physiology grants Applied Linguistics credentials? It certainly didn't help your rhetorical capacity.

If you are going to argue with me at least have the common courtesy to pay attention.




It is dependent upon the persons preferred learning style.
Some people learn well from reading, others from hearing, others from hands on approach, others from mimicry and inculcation and so on and of course combinations of those.



if you can read a pronunciation key, then you can do it.

I'm not scrubbing your idea, just saying that it is not the only way.




A common complaint among native English speaking foreign exchange students who go to China is how utterly useless what they learned in the classroom and from textbooks was.

With Chinese especially, you have to go native. Learning kung fu terminology in it's specific context will do more to prepare you for everyday conversation than just learning word order and vocabulary.

Back to the original question, yes it absolutely is worth it. Kung fu should be valued most for it's cultural heritage (I am sure we'll have more time to debate it's combat effectiveness, certainly a novel topic in itself. . .) and language is an indispensable part of understanding culture. Not to mention the benefits adult language acquisition has for memory and general long term brain health.


nay nay. You are failing at understanding the principles of learning, in particular, adult learning which is entirely different than the regular schooling that we give our kids and adolescents.

also, for those of you struggling to break free of learning styles you think are hard and fast I would submit to you that Helen Keller, a blind deaf mute, learned to read, write and speak in the english language and never heard a single thing in her life, not even the song of a bird.

so, before you start throwing out reflective statements such as "fail" about others, do a little homework.




Do some cursory research on adult second language acquisition before you reply, but if you really want to argue the possibility of becoming conversant in Mandarin without exposure to everyday usage, feel free.
It's obviously just linux anyway.

[David Jamieson]

you are more interested in getting into peeing matches wenshu.

You seem completely unaccepting of an outside idea.

I don't have a problem with your idea of how learning occurs from your understanding of it. I don't think it's the only way. You do.

You seem to take offense when people point out that your way is not the only way.
You try to deconstruct those examples that are given to you to explain a point (Keller) in order to seek out validation of your own.

I don't care if it took 5 days, 5 weeks or 5 years, the point is that your way is NOT the only way and that adults learn differently from kids and it comes down to wanting to learn more so than it comes down to prescribed method.

You are wrong, just move on. :)

[wenshu]

you are more interested in getting into peeing matches wenshu.

You seem completely unaccepting of an outside idea.

I don't have a problem with your idea of how learning occurs from your understanding of it. I don't think it's the only way. You do.

You seem to take offense when people point out that your way is not the only way.
You try to deconstruct those examples that are given to you to explain a point (Keller) in order to seek out validation of your own.

I don't care if it took 5 days, 5 weeks or 5 years, the point is that your way is NOT the only way and that adults learn differently from kids and it comes down to wanting to learn more so than it comes down to prescribed method.

You are wrong, just move on. :)

No, I'm not.

Your entire post completely invalidates itself. Accuse someone of being inflexible while exhibiting to an extreme that same myopic rigidity you purport to see in others.

"You are only interested in p1ssing matches. . .
. . .I'm right, you are wrong, move on."

What I took offense with was someone trying to argue with me without even a cursory understanding of the salient points of the argument. At least I was substantively insulting.

There is nothing inherently wrong with hypocrisy, but come one mang, come on.

Keller was an extreme outlier learning her first language. Not applicable to the general adult population learning a second language, whether it be just a couple of simple sentences to full fluency.

Stop trying to change the argument to match your criteria. Time required to acquire a language wasn't part of the argument. The insane amount of work that went into trying to teach Keller was. Demonstrating the fallacy in trying to use her as an example in regards to a discussion about adult SLA.

To be clear;

You will not learn spoken language without hearing that language.

The most important factor in language acquisition is quality of input.

[Drake]

Especially a language such as Chinese, which is EXPLICITLY tonal, and failure to know these tones will cause you to say things meaning something completely different than you intended.

This cannot be conveyed properly in a book. I've tried.

[Northwind]

Pinyin + Tones + BoPoMoFo

And oddly enough, I agree with SPJ about the songs; although it will do very little for your tones, it will help with making the speech a bit more natural with flow, as well as ease the complexity of sound combination that might be rare or non-existent in your native tongue. (And I actually use to sing those two songs he mentioned :P )

[Northwind]

Especially a language such as Chinese, which is EXPLICITLY tonal, and failure to know these tones will cause you to say things meaning something completely different than you intended.

This cannot be conveyed properly in a book. I've tried.

QFT...Thinking about a word that can mean a type of spice...or male genitalia depending on that. I made this mistake a couple of times in Singapore when asking for more spice at a hawker stall; after much embarrassment I went to pondering and learning :P

[GeneChing]

like Gene said, it's not a binary proposition. I didn't say that. I'm not sure I even meant that. :rolleyes: Nevertheless, I agree with your statement in general, omarthefish. I've never studied Chinese formally unless you count a few mediocre adult ed classes. I pick up new words and concepts here and there, through my research, working here, interacting with the wulin, and eavesdropping on my coworkers when they are cussing me out in Taiwanese. I learn a lot of Spanish that way too. ;)

This learning debate reminds me of the old 'you can't learn from video' misconceptions. You can learn from everything. You should learn from everything. You only falter if you only learn from a single source, especially with language. I learned most of my Chinese by going and living in China. Nothing beats that. But I've also learned bits from videos, books, the web, even here on the forum.

[Lucas]

you can learn from everything. You should learn from everything.

truuufftthh

[David Jamieson]

No, I'm not.

Your entire post completely invalidates itself. Accuse someone of being inflexible while exhibiting to an extreme that same myopic rigidity you purport to see in others.

"You are only interested in p1ssing matches. . .
. . .I'm right, you are wrong, move on."

What I took offense with was someone trying to argue with me without even a cursory understanding of the salient points of the argument. At least I was substantively insulting.

There is nothing inherently wrong with hypocrisy, but come one mang, come on.

Keller was an extreme outlier learning her first language. Not applicable to the general adult population learning a second language, whether it be just a couple of simple sentences to full fluency.

Stop trying to change the argument to match your criteria. Time required to acquire a language wasn't part of the argument. The insane amount of work that went into trying to teach Keller was. Demonstrating the fallacy in trying to use her as an example in regards to a discussion about adult SLA.

To be clear;

You will not learn spoken language without hearing that language.

The most important factor in language acquisition is quality of input.

Tautology and yet more peeing match.

face it, you're readable. lol

:)

would you like some consolation?

Because I still don't agree. You can learn rudiments of language without hearing it.

What you are failing to understand is that my point was about learning styles and how people access knowledge through different pathways. As a language is speak and hear, it seems rather obvious that expeditious routes to learning would fall into the doing that which it is that should be done. lol

You can't seem to get passed some perceived slight as you are still trying to hammer away on the point that is pointless. :)

Language isn't just words and sounds.

Think of it this way. A person who speaks high english and a person who speaks street. Both can communicate with each other, but neither speaks or uses the words of the language as the other does. Did someone "learn" wrong?

You tell me seeing as you are the "homework" apparently. (BTW that remark was over the top in self absorbed ass hattery! Bravo!) :p

[wenshu]

You are not going to win an argument just by constantly calling into question your opponent's motivations.


As a language is speak and hear, it seems rather obvious that expeditious routes to learning would fall into the doing that which it is that should be done.

English? What does that even mean?



Language isn't just words and sounds.
Think of it this way. A person who speaks high english and a person who speaks street. Both can communicate with each other, but neither speaks or uses the words of the language as the other does. Did someone "learn" wrong?

What does linguistic register (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_(sociolinguistics)) have to do with anything? Two completely different areas.

Again, stop trying to move the goal posts to meet your arguments.

Please elaborate on what I said that was a Tautology. This should be interesting.

[wenshu]

Student Manual of the David Jamieson School of Online Rhetoric

Step 1

While on the sh*tter in the morning make a broadly generalized assumption founded on the vague memory of text read on the back of a cereal box 20 years ago.

Post online. Does not necessarily have to be particularly applicable to discussion at hand.

Step 2

When assumption is challenged responding in the following manner:

Question the interlocutors motivations. This can be achieved most effectively by accusing them of "passive aggressiveness" or "inability to accept opposing views" etc.

It is important to maintain a robust obliviousness to any apparent logical inconsistencies or glaring hypocrisy. Just keep stating that the only possible explanation for any disagreement is some personal ulterior motive.

Whatever you do, do not do any research on the topic to back up your point, do not make any reference to well sourced scholarship. Google is not your friend.

Step 3

Declare victory and drink a 12 pack of Molson. Then post more sub-literate jibberish.

[David Jamieson]

wow, two posts of overt "look at me, I'm an egghead" butt hurt.

your life must suck or something.

lol :p

you're "winning". yay! :D

[Lucas]

Wrong. I am winning. I always win. The End.

[David Jamieson]

Wrong. I am winning. I always win. The End.

eff you buddy.

Black Bear!

you lose.

winning!

[Lucas]

FOOL, here is what I think of you and your d@mn bear! I did this with a front snap toe kick!

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/08/22/dead_bear_killed_and_poached.jpg

*flex*

[Punch.HeadButt]

Must've learned it from Seagal.

Someone made an Executive Decision concerning that poor bear.

[omarthefish]

I didn't say that. I'm not sure I even meant that. :rolleyes: Nevertheless, I agree with your statement in general, omarthefish. ....
Might have been another poster. I was paraphrasing. Nobody called it "binary" but me but I could have sworn someone made a reference to it not being an "either/or" proposition. ie. you can just learn a little bit and get something out of it. Like those couple phrases you learned. You haven't learned enough to converse but you still take pleasure in the bits you did learn.

wenshu....

nevermind. :cool:

[wenshu]

"look at me, I'm an egghead"


I resemble that remark.

[JamesC]

Must've learned it from Seagal.

Someone made an Executive Decision concerning that poor bear.

I see what you did there. Nice.

[Lucas]

Must've learned it from Seagal.

Someone made an Executive Decision concerning that poor bear.

dude I learn all mu kungfoo from Steven seagull

[Punch.HeadButt]

I see what you did there. Nice.

I admit, I feel dirty for it. Dirty, sinful puns..


dude I learn all mu kungfoo from Steven seagull

Then, if need be, I will fight you with Alka Seltzer. :p

[Lucas]

sheeet.. that my secret weakness....

[David Jamieson]

I call seal team 6
you are doomed
your argument is now potato

[KC Elbows]

Having a bachelors in Mandarin, I will say that you better have a backup plan for a career.

However, it's rewarding and a good base where you gain other qualifications.

As to kung fu, that's fun, but I've ironically hardly focused on kung fu terminology, though I learned a bit while in China.

If you want to master the language, well, that's a lifelong process, but competence can be gained, but you have to talk to people, you have to replace english phrasing at times with the chinese so that you make it natural to think in Chinese, etc.

Good luck, hope you enjoy it to whatever degree you pursue it.

[David Jamieson]

Having a bachelors in Mandarin, I will say that you better have a backup plan for a career.

However, it's rewarding and a good base where you gain other qualifications.

As to kung fu, that's fun, but I've ironically hardly focused on kung fu terminology, though I learned a bit while in China.

If you want to master the language, well, that's a lifelong process, but competence can be gained, but you have to talk to people, you have to replace english phrasing at times with the chinese so that you make it natural to think in Chinese, etc.

Good luck, hope you enjoy it to whatever degree you pursue it.

Ooooh bachelors in mandarin. If you add that to a BA and 50 cents, you can get a cup of coffee! :D Wait, make that $1.50..

[KC Elbows]

Ooooh bachelors in mandarin. If you add that to a BA and 50 cents, you can get a cup of coffee! :D Wait, make that $1.50..

You're forgetting student loans. I can't get coffee until 2027.:D

[Drake]

I'm working on my PhD right now. Not a dime out of pocket for this, my AA, my BS, or my MS. :D

[KC Elbows]

I'm working on my PhD right now. Not a dime out of pocket for this, my AA, my BS, or my MS. :D

Tamade.:D

12234

[David Jamieson]

I'm working on my PhD right now. Not a dime out of pocket for this, my AA, my BS, or my MS. :D

gubmint camo wearing welfare case is what you are. :mad:


:p

[Drake]

gubmint camo wearing welfare case is what you are. :mad:


:p

Not only that, but I'll be rounding up a few certifications after this, so I can have a sweet consulting job after I retire at 43, and still receive half of my very pleasant salary. :D

[KC Elbows]

Not only that, but I'll be rounding up a few certifications after this, so I can have a sweet consulting job after I retire at 43, and still receive half of my very pleasant salary. :D

Yes, but I get to eat bitter.

[Drake]

Yes, but I get to eat bitter.

Yeah, but how many times have you been blowed up or shot at?

[KC Elbows]

Sure, get all serious.

Technically, I've never been blowed up or shot at. I did, however, watch Daredevil.

[David Jamieson]

I've been shot in the leg, stabbed in the side of my other leg, bitten on the arms by a dog and also on the leg.
I've also bean whacked about the head and neck far too many times to keep track of.

But, so what. lol
I'm sure a few guys on here have eaten some bitter. :D

Oh god I hope so, I'd hate to think I've thrown in with a pack of losers and dough boys. I'm kinda hoping some of you have some hurt in your life to help you be a real man about stuff. :D

[Drake]

Sure, get all serious.

Technically, I've never been blowed up or shot at. I did, however, watch Daredevil.


Oh crap. The theatrical version? Nevermind. You've had it worse than me.

[Drake]

I've been shot in the leg, stabbed in the side of my other leg, bitten on the arms by a dog and also on the leg.
I've also bean whacked about the head and neck far too many times to keep track of.

But, so what. lol
I'm sure a few guys on here have eaten some bitter. :D

Oh god I hope so, I'd hate to think I've thrown in with a pack of losers and dough boys. I'm kinda hoping some of you have some hurt in your life to help you be a real man about stuff. :D

I had a dog chomp down on my hand once... so I went to beat it down with a chunk of lumber. You know what the girl next to me said?

"Stop, don't hit it! You'll make it mean!"

[KC Elbows]

I had a dog chomp down on my hand once... so I went to beat it down with a chunk of lumber. You know what the girl next to me said?

"Stop, don't hit it! You'll make it mean!"

Did you hit it?

[wenshu]

Bull
Sh*t

More of the
Same

Piled
Higher and
Deeper

[Drake]

Did you hit it?

No. She managed to completely flabbergast me. The bite was nasty, though. Got infected, hand was swollen.

[Lucas]

LOL f that dude!

[Drake]

LOL f that dude!

In retrospect, I should have bludgeoned that canine to death. That was an oddly pacifist moment for me.

[KC Elbows]

No. She managed to completely flabbergast me. The bite was nasty, though. Got infected, hand was swollen.

I wasn't talking about the dog!

[Drake]

I wasn't talking about the dog!

Oh, her? Nah... she was kind of chunky and sort of got on my nerves. Maybe if I was drunk.

[KC Elbows]

This thread is no longer satisfying my prurient interests.

[David Jamieson]

In retrospect, I should have bludgeoned that canine to death. That was an oddly pacifist moment for me.

In a very non compassionate moment, I killed one of the dogs that attacked me by collapsing it's airway with a well placed and hard kick. In my opinion, it was dead when it decided to attack me.

[Drake]

In a very non compassionate moment, I killed one of the dogs that attacked me by collapsing it's airway with a well placed and hard kick. In my opinion, it was dead when it decided to attack me.

I am just typically very merciless in combat. I used to tell people I was going to kill them as I had them in a submission. I asked them to look at me so I could see their eyes, so I could know what a man who knew he was going to die looked like. Told them I fed off their fears.

Then I joined the army and became a p*ssy. :D

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhhDpB5TSGA&feature=related

if a Japanese girl may sing Chinese

i will learn a Japanese song myself

a challenge sort of

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECi3xMcTm3s&feature=related

learning a few words every day,

challenge yourself.

:)

[Drake]

I was taught in college that songs, particularly children's songs, were best for learning a language.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L2eLzRzamI&feature=related

this Canadian girl speaks perfect

wow.

:cool:

[GeneChing]

I searched Confucius Institute on our forum and this thread popped because of this (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?60375-Learning-Chinese-for-Kung-Fu&p=1093265#post1093265). This morning's newsfeeds are full of Confucius Institute 10 year anniversary celebrations. Even my master Shi Decheng (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?44742-Shi-Decheng&p=1276138#post1276138) is involved with the celebration in Florida. In fact, I was searching for info on him when I stumbled across this Forbes article.


8/31/2014 @ 12:17PM 5,678 views
Is This American Academe's Most Shameful Moment? (http://www.forbes.com/sites/eamonnfingleton/2014/08/31/is-this-american-academes-most-shameful-moment/)
Eamonn Fingleton Contributor

Later this month the Chinese government will celebrate the tenth anniversary of the founding of its worldwide network of Chinese-language training schools. Big deal, you might think, but not everyone is greeting the event with a yawn.

Far from it. In an illustration of how complicated our globalized world is becoming, the anniversary is posing an acute dilemma for universities across the United States. More than ninety U.S. universities now host Beijing’s language training schools, which are known as Confucius Institutes. In so doing they accept Beijing’s money. They also cede control of their curriculums and allow Beijing not only to appoint most of the teachers but impose a regimen of self-censorship in discussing “sensitive” issues such as the Tienanmen massacre. For two previous articles I have written on the institutes, click here and here.

Administrators at such universities are now evidently under strong pressure to participate in Beijing’s rather synthetic anniversary celebrations. The problem is that in doing so, they will engage in the academic equivalent of a perp walk. Meanwhile if they ignore the anniversary, their Beijing paymasters will probably not be gruntled.

What is undeniable is that the Confucius Institutes are highly controversial. In the view of many American critics, the institutes’ relationship to the Chinese government is far too close. Not only does this raise questions about the future of academic freedom at host universities, but there have long been suggestions that the institutes have been engaging in industrial and military espionage, as well as surveillance of Chinese students abroad.

Greatly compounding American academe’s discomfiture is that the Beijing government seems hell-bent on making the anniversary a high-profile statement of the speed with which Chinese influence is spreading in Western intellectual life.

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/eamonnfingleton/files/2014/09/670px-confucius_statue_in_beijing.jpg
Confucius reinterpreted: you are free to say anything you want — so long as you agree with Beijing. (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

All this notwithstanding, at least eleven American universities that host Confucius Institutes have already sufficiently swallowed their pride to announce plans to celebrate the anniversary. They include Michigan, Purdue, Florida, Rutgers, North Carolina, Arizona, Idaho, Texas (Dallas), Texas Southern, San Francisco State, and the University of California-Davis. Elsewhere Sheffield, Manchester, Leeds and Strathclyde in the United Kingdom and both La Trobe and Melbourne in Australia are also joining in the Made-in-China festivities.

As Perry Link, emeritus professor of East Asian studies at Princeton, points out, there is something “embarrassing” about American universities being expected to celebrate this anniversary. After all, what is being commemorated is not the establishment of any U.S.-based institution but rather the world’s first Confucius Institute, established thousands of miles away in Seoul, Korea in 2004. He adds: “In any case there is no tradition for American universities to celebrate the founding of their departments, and most academic staff are only vaguely aware, if they are aware at all, of when their departments were founded.”

For American university administrators perhaps the most embarrassing aspect of the whole affair is that Beijing has reversed itself on the hot-button issue at the center of the entire controversy. After vehemently denying for years that the Confucius Institutes have any kind of censorship agenda, Beijing has now tacitly acknowledged that this was false. The admission came in July at the annual conference in Portugal of the European Association for Chinese Studies, an event organized in part by a Portuguese Confucius Institute. On the orders of a top Beijing official, pages were ripped out of the conference program before it was distributed to participants. The offending pages bore references to Taiwan-based organizations that she considered “inappropriate.”The official who gave the orders was Xu Lin, worldwide head of the Confucius Institute network.

In the view of Christopher Hughes, a top British China watcher who is based at the London School of Economics, Xu’s intervention marks a new, much more interventionist stage in the development of the Confucius Institutes’ censorship program. He comments: “Even if Confucius Institute staff have not been prepared to admit it, everyone knows that they have been under pressure all along to censor themselves on sensitive issues. The Confucius Institutes are not academic institutions and in the wake of what happened in Portugal, it amazes me that anyone might continue to believe that they do not have a political agenda.”

[Faux Newbie]

I can only say how it worked at my university.

The Confucius institute and the Chinese department are separate entities. There is overlap, but mostly in that some professor's from the department (and other department's professors whose expertise relates in some way to China) are asked to speak or participate in forums. But the curriculum for the Confucius center has more to do with community classes in Chinese and things related to China. I don't know of any classes for college credit done at or through the Confucius center. The Chinese language courses of the university were not taught by the instructors at the Confucius center. In fact, in seven years there of undergrad and graduate work, the only contact I had with that center was attending an erhu performance, I believe the performer's name was Xing Ke, but this was a long time ago. I took every for credit class available on the Chinese language at both graduate and undergraduate level, and all but a total of three or four courses related to China, in fields from poli-sci, geography, culture, religion, sociology, anthropology, and business. None of my professors that I can recall were part of the Confucius Institute.

Just looked at their website. Not one member of their staff is from the Chinese Language and Culture department at KU.

The curriculum for students studying Chinese language or culture was not defined by the Confucius center, but driven by the department chair, himself an American China scholar. His wife, another of the professors, who did research work in Tibet, like all the professors and teachers, spoke freely about Tiananmen Square, Tibet, Xinjiang, etc.

In fact, all sources I ever read in college on Tiananmen Square and the autonomous regions were far more detailed than what you will find in the news, not exactly pulling punches in regards to the Chinese government, and at least two of the professors were frequently asked to speak to groups of U.S. military officers on specific topics related to China. One professor's wife was actually part of the demonstrations at Tiananmen, and, in fact, most Americans who have seen pictures of that event will have seen her work at the event.

Beyond that, since I had little contact with the center, I couldn't speak more on it. The center itself was forty minutes from the campus, and since Chinese students usually didn't go to that area, I'm not sure it would have been an effective tool for keeping tabs on them. Local associations at the college were mostly organized by students, and many of those were more broadly based around East Asian affiliation than specifically Chinese.

In seven years of studying Chinese language and culture there, I knew almost everyone who taught about China at the university, and knew no one from the Confucian Institute, nor did they frequent our department. The overall head of the East Asian department is now an American Japan expert, the language classes for Japanese, Chinese, and Korean are formatted similarly, the books for the Chinese department are not PRC ones, and, in general, the contact is minimal except for college departments provided professors as experts for forums at the Confucian Institute. In general, the institute was far more dependent on the college in terms of content and experts.

[Faux Newbie]

Actually, come to think of it, in regards to Tiananmen, when speaking just of the media, not including academia/scholarly sources, Chinese sources are least informative, U.S. sources are least informed. The absence on one end is filled by the near mythology level strangeness of the other.

Reminds me of watching footage of news from when Kwangju's protests occurred. Almost surreal in hindsite.

[mig]

The question I ask myself is how important is for you to know the Chinese language to learn the Chinese fighting arts depending which area those fighting arts are practiced. In the past, very few people learned the Chinese language and all they learned about martial arts were by the very few translations we found in magazines or books. Don't you need to understand the cultural implications and linguistics intricacies in martial arts as also in many other aspects of life. I will certainly hear from some people, you don't need to learn the language to know the fighting applications. Just wondering.

Mig

[Faux Newbie]

The question I ask myself is how important is for you to know the Chinese language to learn the Chinese fighting arts depending which area those fighting arts are practiced. In the past, very few people learned the Chinese language and all they learned about martial arts were by the very few translations we found in magazines or books. Don't you need to understand the cultural implications and linguistics intricacies in martial arts as also in many other aspects of life. I will certainly hear from some people, you don't need to learn the language to know the fighting applications. Just wondering.

Mig

If there are enough qualified practitioners to translate key materials, then it doesn't matter if one individual doesn't speak the language.

For the most part, that is still in development, so it is pretty important for the arts that some people do learn it, I think. This doesn't mean it has to be any particular person, as it's a ****-ton of work.

[David Jamieson]

Punching someone hard in the face requires language skills?

Hmmn. Ain't that something?

[Jimbo]

I don't think developing true CMA skill necessarily requires fluency in Chinese. My CLF Sifu is not fluent in Cantonese, but he knows the CLF terminology, and more importantly, he really knows his stuff and is very effective with it. He also has about 50 years' experience in CLF, and prior to that, Kajukenbo. Has a lack of fluency in the Cantonese language hindered him in his development? Absolutely not.

Also, learning a language for the specific purpose of studying CMA is not practical, IMO. If you want to learn Mandarin or Cantonese, it's better to have a real need for it, such as living in a Mandarin or Cantonese-speaking locale, and using it on an everyday basis, not just for kung fu. I studied Mandarin in Taiwan for only five months, but what really improved it was the long period I spent living there and speaking it every day. I became fluent, and could even read magazines and books. Since I left Taiwan over 20 years ago, my conversational Mandarin has gone way down, and my ability to read Chinese even further down. I can still carry on a simple conversation, but some things are halting and poor now. I can still understand it better than I can speak it now. If you're not constantly surrounded with Chinese-speaking people and using it, you lose it if you aren't a native speaker.

Did the Mandarin help my Tanglang training? It helped make my life there a full one, but one can develop very good kung fu without being fluent in Chinese. OTOH, one can speak perfect Mandarin or Cantonese, or even be a native speaker, and not develop a good understanding or ability in CMA. IMO, it's way more important to have a good teacher, with a good method, an aptitude for the art, and long-term persistence at it.

[ShaolinDan]

Haha. Well, since I started this thread and have since learned (some) Chinese[mandarin], I guess I should respond to myself. :)

I never did take any formal classes, but I did spend a year in China, and managed to learn enough to get around, though my skill still falls far short of conversational.

It's certainly not necessary to learn Chinese to develop in CMA, but that was never the original question. The question was, what is the payoff for the investment?

And now I can say, "It's all situational."

Learning Chinese helps. It can help clarify all kinds of things---even as simple as knowing that "bu" is really 'step' not 'stance'. It's also way easier to remember all those Chinese terms if you know what they actually mean. And, of course, it's really useful for dealing with Chinese speaking teachers and practitioners, and for any training related travel in China, BUT...

Learning Chinese is hard. Is it worth it?

For me, it was totally worth it...but I was living in China. Can't say I've continued learning since I've been back. Making the time just isn't a priority, and now that I'm home, I can't learn just by living.

In the end, it's a question like, "Is it worth it to learn to play guitar?" It all depends.

[GeneChing]

Fluency is relative. I'd argue that most of you here barely speak English. For many of you, your posting prose leaves much to be desired on a fundamental grammatical level. :p

When I was studying for my Fencing masters examination, our textbooks were in French, Italian and German. I don't speak any of these languages, but I had a glossary of fencing terms in all three languages (note that the dominant language of Fencing in America is French) and with some dictionaries and some help, I got by. And that was long before the interwebz and all of the free-access online translators.

If you were studying something like French cuisine, it really helps to know some French. You don't have to be fluent in Chinese to study Kung Fu. Lawd knows I'm not. But the study of Kung Fu is a lifetime undertaking, so every little bit helps. It's certainly not going to hurt.

[bawang]

its helpful to learn chinese in kung fu because the form means jack sh1t.

it would also reduce amount of "hay gays wat do application <punching the face> do? is it a leg touch uproot small join qinna?"

when you dont know chinese, every single kung fu technique is weird leg touch uproot small joint qinna.

[Faux Newbie]

If you do not have translations of key boxing manuals and texts for western boxing, your culture probably does not have a strong boxing community.

Same with kung fu.

Most of us are familiar with a great variety of things because of those in our midst who are bilingual.

This does not mean you have to be bilingual, but if your area is producing good kung fu people consistently, then odds are good someone is doing it for you.

If you have kung fu around you, someone who knew the language probably helped get it there. Cross cultural interest drove its movement and enabled it to thrive.

If you are relying only on a teacher's cribbed version (even for Chinese teachers) of key texts, then you are working at a hopefully temporary disadvantage. The source is not the sifu alone, and never was, and without some translations, you have to recreate the wheel.

So, people who can work in both languages are essential, but of course that will not be everyone.

[dolphin_rider]

Hi everyone! Dear friends, I'm doing research about the roots of our school. I need your help identify this language. This is part of a Fighting song. I taught it as a poem. Did not read and did not see how it is written. I have no chinese characters, I get it as a poem.
...
sai mun cho saf
kong sang cho tsui
sieng ma ta hau tsui
sieng ma ta cho chien
sieng ma ta sau tsui
sat pek pao ma
alin atin akiu
... etc.

I need your help identify this language. I know the function, I need only define the language. ( My teacher said: "This is the language Siko".)

Best regards,
Dolphin Rider

[David Jamieson]

Hi everyone! Dear friends, I'm doing research about the roots of our school. I need your help identify this language. This is part of a Fighting song. I taught it as a poem. Did not read and did not see how it is written. I have no chinese characters, I get it as a poem.
...
sai mun cho saf
kong sang cho tsui
sieng ma ta hau tsui
sieng ma ta cho chien
sieng ma ta sau tsui
sat pek pao ma
alin atin akiu
... etc.

I need your help identify this language. I know the function, I need only define the language. ( My teacher said: "This is the language Siko".)

Best regards,
Dolphin Rider

Gonna guess it's a phonetic version of Cantonese. Phonetic spellings can mess with translations though.

[mig]

Gonna guess it's a phonetic version of Cantonese. Phonetic spellings can mess with translations though.

I guess your guess is a good guess unless this is a-lin a-tin a-kiu and it is not a phonetic version but a non trained ear to pick sounds that should be transcribed differently. Maybe it is important to learn Chinese for Kung fu instead of guessing. Hope there is a Cantonese here to help or an American who speaks fluently Cantonese or any version of Seiyap dialect.

[-N-]

I guess your guess is a good guess unless this is a-lin a-tin a-kiu and it is not a phonetic version but a non trained ear to pick sounds that should be transcribed differently. Maybe it is important to learn Chinese for Kung fu instead of guessing. Hope there is a Cantonese here to help or an American who speaks fluently Cantonese or any version of Seiyap dialect.

Cantonese here. Family and relatives spoke Sei Yup, Sam Yup, and Loong Do.

Looks like phonetic spelling of Cantonese to me.

[dolphin_rider]

Thank you, David Jamieson! Thank you, Mig! Thank you, -N-!

I understand that the phonetic spelling always contains inaccuracies. But I do not have a graphic writing. My teacher said - I repeat the words and perform the movement. :)

Translation unnecessary. This is the name of various technical movement. I want only to identify the language.

So, Cantonese. How interesting! Then I will show you these movements on video. :)

[GeneChing]

Even with pinyin for Mandarin, having the Chinese characters solves any ambiguity. It's especially important for Cantonese as very few Kung Fu people are familiar with a real Romanization system. This is even harder for dialects like Sei Yup, Sam Yup or Hakka.

[bawang]

sounds like choy lee fut

[dolphin_rider]

Thank you, Gene Ching! Thank you, Bawang!

Of course - to publish the Chinese characters solves any ambiguity. To me it is clear. If I were the Chinese characters - I am 100% would publish the Chinese characters. But I do not have Chinese characters. I taught this all as a poem. My teacher said - I repeat the words and perform the movement. :)

I always thought that this language Hakka.

[-N-]

Thank you, Gene Ching! Thank you, Bawang!

Of course - to publish the Chinese characters solves any ambiguity. To me it is clear. If I were the Chinese characters - I am 100% would publish the Chinese characters. But I do not have Chinese characters. I taught this all as a poem. My teacher said - I repeat the words and perform the movement. :)

I always thought that this language Hakka.

If you do a video of the words and moves, we probably can translate to characters.

sat pek pao ma = killing strike(splitting/chopping) running horse?

[mig]

sounds like choy lee fut

How do you know is CLF if you are from the north?

[-N-]

sat pek pao ma = killing strike(splitting/chopping) running horse?

Does this sequence have hard strikes swinging down on a high target(or clearing a middle attack) and use fast footwork to drive in or run over the opponent?

[-N-]

Hi everyone! Dear friends, I'm doing research about the roots of our school. I need your help identify this language. This is part of a Fighting song. I taught it as a poem. Did not read and did not see how it is written. I have no chinese characters, I get it as a poem.
...
sai mun cho saf
kong sang cho tsui
sieng ma ta hau tsui
sieng ma ta cho chien
sieng ma ta sau tsui
sat pek pao ma
alin atin akiu
... etc.

I need your help identify this language. I know the function, I need only define the language. ( My teacher said: "This is the language Siko".)

Best regards,
Dolphin Rider

Kind of an interesting puzzle.

I'll take a wild guess at an interpretation, but it's a huge stretch without hearing the words and seeing the moves.

sai mun cho saf - get ready
kong sang cho tsui - strike out with hard body power
sieng ma ta hau tsui - advance and strike/clear behind
sieng ma ta cho chien - advance and strike out forward
sieng ma ta sau tsui - advance and hit/clear the hands
sat pek pao ma - (previous motions combined become) killing splitting strikes with running footwork
alin atin akiu - stick, advance, bridge

[dolphin_rider]

Kind of an interesting puzzle.

I'll take a wild guess at an interpretation, but it's a huge stretch without hearing the words and seeing the moves.

sai mun cho saf - get ready
kong sang cho tsui - strike out with hard body power
sieng ma ta hau tsui - advance and strike/clear behind
sieng ma ta cho chien - advance and strike out forward
sieng ma ta sau tsui - advance and hit/clear the hands
sat pek pao ma - (previous motions combined become) killing splitting strikes with running footwork
alin atin akiu - stick, advance, bridge


-N-, thank you for your time and attention to this matter!

I think that you was right on target! All of this - very logical!
I made a video on the weekend. So you can hearing the words and seeing the moves.

[-N-]

-N-, thank you for your time and attention to this matter!

I think that you was right on target! All of this - very logical!
I made a video on the weekend. So you can hearing the words and seeing the moves.

Will be interested to see it.

The concept reminds me a little of one we have in a Praying Mantis form.

The sequence is called Koi Ma Sam Chui - Covering the horse three punches.

In the form, you step in three times with swinging strikes to clear and attack.

In actual usage, the sequence combines into a continuous running hard power attack.

[dolphin_rider]

Today we made a video. Tomorrow I show it.
What do you think, to continue here, or continue in private messages?

[mig]

Today we made a video. Tomorrow I show it.
What do you think, to continue here, or continue in private messages?

Post it here and let's learn what each sentence means and possibly have Chinese characters involved.

[-N-]

Post it here and let's learn what each sentence means and possibly have Chinese characters involved.

Yes. It will help to have extra eyes and ears on it. Good for discussion.

[dolphin_rider]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj3N9wK7Mqs&feature=youtu.be

[-N-]

Ok, it's still hard to tell with the video. And I think left and right might have been switched at some point. But sounds kind of like this:

左拱手
jo2 gung2 sau2
left salute

右拱手
yau6 gung2 sau2
right salute

落馬
lok6 ma5
(get) down (into) horse

上馬打左捶
seung5 ma5 da2 jo2 cheui4
advance, hit (with) left punch

上馬打右捶
seung5 ma5 da2 yau6 cheui4
advance, hit (with) right punch

sai mun cho saf
四門肘殺(not sure on the last two)
sei3 mun4 jau2 saat3
four gates elbow (strike)kill

kong sang cho tsui
剛身左捶
gong1 san1 jo2 cheui4
strong body left punch

sieng ma ta hau tsui
上馬打 [?] 捶
seung5 ma5 da2 [?] cheui4
advance, hit (with) [a type of] punch

sieng ma ta cho chien
上馬打左掌 (or 挫掌?)
seung5 ma5 da2 jo2 jeung2 (or cho3 jeung2?)
advance, hit with left palm (or defeating palm?)

sieng ma ta sau tsui
上馬打 [?] 捶
seung5 ma5 da2 [?] cheui4
advance, hit (with) [a type of] punch

sat pek pao ma
殺劈跑馬
saat3 pek3 paau2 ma5
killing split/strike running horse/footwork

alin atin akiu
?

四門肘殺(not sure on the last two)
sei3 mun4 jau2 saat3
four gates elbow (strike)kill

剛身左捶
gong1 san1 jo2 cheui4
strong body left punch

上馬打 [?] 捶
seung5 ma5 da2 [?] cheui4
advance, hit (with) [a type of] punch

上馬打左掌 (or 挫掌?)
seung5 ma5 da2 jo2 jeung2 (or cho3 jeung2?)
advance, hit with left palm (or defeating palm?)

上馬打 [?] 捶
seung5 ma5 da2 [?] cheui4
advance, hit (with) [a type of] punch


For the jump turn, I heard:
轉身
jyun2 san1

Most of the rest, I couldn't tell.

[SteveLau]

It is always worth it to learn new languages.

To be fair first, I speak and write Chinese. Learning a language is always difficult if one is new to it completely. And Chinese is a difficult to learn language. Its written part is comprised of strokes. Its spoken part has dozens of dialects. So in MYPV, there is no need to learn Chinese for Kung Fu training. There are tons of written and spoken records of Kung Fu available in the public domain , which proves my point. I do not mean we should seek training only from records. Serious Kung Fu students should always obtain training from a life instructor. But can the instructor express himself well in non-Chinese language that his student can understand well? That's the question.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[dolphin_rider]

Ok, it's still hard to tell with the video. And I think left and right might have been switched at some point. But sounds kind of like this:


Thank you for all your assistance! I truly appreciate your help in resolving this detection!

I write you a personal message.

[-N-]

For the jump turn, I heard:
轉身
jyun2 san1


translation:
turn body