Why do you want to fight?

[LoneTiger108]

I know this may be a boring subject to most who post here, but I thought I would ask why so many of you feel like fighting is the goal of your Wing Chun training?

Whether it's street fighting or competitive fighting, why do you want to take Wing Chun into that domain in the first place? Who told you that fighting others (and your own family!) is what training Wing Chun is about? How much do you get charged to learn how to beat your brothers and sisters?

And I have to end by asking if you would teach your own children the same?

[CFT]

Because Wing Chun is a martial art and not a martial dance.

Even if you 'only' train for self defence you need to know that what you practice will stand up to pressure. How will you know it really works if you don't test drive it?

[LoneTiger108]

Because Wing Chun is a martial art and not a martial dance.

Even if you 'only' train for self defence you need to know that what you practice will stand up to pressure. How will you know it really works if you don't test drive it?

I understand that you relate 'art and dance' as polar opposites???? Hmmm...

As for this 'pressure testing' malarky, this is why I ask!! What pressure test!?

So you feel that you need to test your Wing Chun in a competition with rules? What for exactly? And why learn Wing Chun to do that when there are so many other arts out there these days that ONLY do the competitive thing?

[CFT]

I understand that you relate 'art and dance' as polar opposites???? Hmmm...

As for this 'pressure testing' malarky, this is why I ask!! What pressure test!?

So you feel that you need to test your Wing Chun in a competition with rules? What for exactly? And why learn Wing Chun to do that when there are so many other arts out there these days that ONLY do the competitive thing?You could just drop the 'martial' from 'martial dance'. It wouldn't change the nature of the dance.

Ultimately, one should test one's skills in competition. That is what the rooftop fights in HK were.

What do you think Wing Chun is all about then?

[m1k3]

And why learn Wing Chun to do that when there are so many other arts out there these days

QFT!

Thanks Tigger for an honest post.

And, if you don't understand the need to compete with your martial art you probably never will.
:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, why was WC developed?

[LoneTiger108]

Ultimately, one should test one's skills in competition. That is what the rooftop fights in HK were.

A bit of a laughable comment considering the nature (and basic standard) of the people who fought. That was all 'playfighting'. Gangster banter and bragging. Nothing to do with learning Martial Arts imo and something I wouldn't expose a student to, like ever!


And, if you don't understand the need to compete with your martial art you probably never will.

Did I say I didn't understand? No. I'm simply asking why you want to fight? And FWIW there is no 'need' for fighting competitions in Wing Chun at all. Fighting in cages and rings and leitais or whatever is already out there, and flourishing. What I'm interested in is understanding why you want to be a 'part of a trend' that I find a little barbaric?


What do you think Wing Chun is all about then?


So, why was WC developed?

Listen, my opinions are shat-on daily in this forum. You guys seem intelligent enough to come up with something far better than 'fighting', surely?

Does anyone care about Martial Culture? Language? PEACEFUL training??

Or do we all just want to fight???

[sanjuro_ronin]

WC, like every other Martial art, was developed to fight with.
The creator, developer, 1st generation master(s) and practioners ALL used it to fight with.
That is why in WC, we learn how to, wait for it.....FIGHT !!!
Freaky eh?
Can WC be useful for others things? sure.
Cars were developed to drive people from A to B, but they can be used for other crap too.
Of course you are NOT using it for what it was intended to, but hey, it's a free world, supposedly.

[Dragonzbane76]

Listen, my opinions are shat-on daily in this forum. You guys seem intelligent enough to come up with something far better than 'fighting', surely?

Does anyone care about Martial Culture? Language? PEACEFUL training??

Or do we all just want to fight???

I think the "fighting" came first before anything else. You asked a simple question people will give the simple answer.

[Lucas]

i think most people start martial arts with the intention of learning to fight, and then at some point doing so, and with good reason. most go through several personal evolutions in regards to goals, and outlook of what they are doing, throughout their martial art life.

for many martial artists, fighting will always be an important element. or we probably would not have started in the first place and would be playing softball, doing gymnastics, or dance, or some other physical activity.

no longer is fighting my focus, but since thats why i started it will always be an important factor in my studies. when seeking someone to learn from, they must know how to apply their martial art to combat, or for me it is pointless to spend even 1 minute with them.

but in the beginning, for many, the aspect that martial arts offers one the ability to learn to fight, is the primary draw for most who actually contemplate martial arts in the first place.

in todays world though....beginners often start just to get in shape. its a much wider scope...most of those people just do yoga though or old people tai chi...or they quit in the first 6 months of learning a real martial art.

[Lucas]

oh oops i got the answer wrong. 'why do i want to fight'?

so i can beat people up! :D

oh and all that protecting junk too

[couch]

It's not about the system. It's not about the approach.

For me, I want to fight because I want to know that I can handle myself to the best of my ability if the ish ever hits the fan. I also have a family and my own business that puts food on the table - so getting into street fights are not so great in my case. The ring/competition/etc is the best venue for my lifestyle.

Fighting is scary as hell. For me, I've noticed a ton of emotion attached to it. When I get into the ring, my fear dies a little more each time.

And it's not just a fear of getting hit. Ego is involved, too. After years of 31337 martial arts, I still suck donkey b@lls at times. There is a fear of being bad at something I love so much.

So...really...there's a lot to it. But those are some darn good reasons why I fight.

Would I teach my children the same? Yes. They will learn about why I fight as I raise them and learn about the benefits that I've gained from it. They can make their own choices as they get older.

[LoneTiger108]

Okay. All fair points raised so far, but let me ask this; do you think that Wing Chun was created from empty hand fighting or weaponry combat?

I ask because I was taught that Wing Chun came from our weaponry, and so the empty hand forms, interactions and training evolved from there. Two knives and a pole. Competitive fighting has it's place, I'm not here to argue that point, I'm just interested to learn why so many hold empty hand fighting with such high regard when we are a weaponry based system?

Fear. Anxiety. Adrenaline. Stage fright! All these elements are alive and well in any serious Martial Art weaponry training, whether that be through fighting in a controlled environment with your weapon or training under constant pressure to defend yourself and survive! And all the time you're further developing your strength, speed and stamina which naturally enhances your empty hand methods.

So, why do we still want to fight eachother and feel that bone to bone contact?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Okay. All fair points raised so far, but let me ask this; do you think that Wing Chun was created from empty hand fighting or weaponry combat?

An interesting question.
I have some experience in the FMA and as you know, they advocate armed first and then unarmed base don that armed training.
There is also a reason you will never see a FMA be very effective in empty hand training as compared to systems that train, primerily empty hands and that is because armed doesn't translate that will to unarmed.

Its a fine theory but one that has been shown to be quite incorrect, in fact, going from empty hand to armed makes more sense than the reverse ( typically).

But a couple of push daggers in the hands of a well trained boxer and you will see what I mean.

[LoneTiger108]

Its a fine theory but one that has been shown to be quite incorrect, in fact, going from empty hand to armed makes more sense than the reverse ( typically).

It's one thing, like the Filipino arts, to encourage the weapon before the hand but it's another to suggest they do not cross over well imo.

Wing Chun centre and straight line concepts come from the pole, as an example, and side body punching structures are drilled with the pole, so how do you even know that you're doing it correctly if you have never trained such pole methods?

In fact, the reason our weaponry is in the system is to back up all our hand work not the other way round, although I understand that this has become the way for us all to learn these days. Which is good too. Safer!

Man, I didn't know what a reverse punch was in Karate until I saw Kanazawa with a Jo staff :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's one thing, like the Filipino arts, to encourage the weapon before the hand but it's another to suggest they do not cross over well imo.

Wing Chun centre and straight line concepts come from the pole, as an example, and side body punching structures are drilled with the pole, so how do you even know that you're doing it correctly if you have never trained such pole methods?

In fact, the reason our weaponry is in the system is to back up all our hand work not the other way round, although I understand that this has become the way for us all to learn these days. Which is good too. Safer!

Man, I didn't know what a reverse punch was in Karate until I saw Kanazawa with a Jo staff :D

The biomechanics used in delivering a thrust with the pole are far different than that with a fist.
Sorry.
And the Jo staff lends itself better to the oi or kizami tzuki then it does to the gyaku-tzuki, this according to the very same Kanazawa and HIS Sensei.


Just saying...

[Vajramusti]

The biomechanics used in delivering a thrust with the pole are far different than that with a fist.
Sorry.

((FWIW, IMO yes and no))joy


And the Jo staff lends itself better to the oi or kizami tzuki then it does to the gyaku-tzuki, this according to the very same Kanazawa and HIS Sensei.


Just saying...

((Kanazawa was/is good. He also started doing taichi to become softer, if I recall correctly))

joy chaudhuri

[JamesC]

I'm gonna 3rd that. Dude is a class act.

[Frost]

I know this may be a boring subject to most who post here, but I thought I would ask why so many of you feel like fighting is the goal of your Wing Chun training?

Whether it's street fighting or competitive fighting, why do you want to take Wing Chun into that domain in the first place? Who told you that fighting others (and your own family!) is what training Wing Chun is about? How much do you get charged to learn how to beat your brothers and sisters?

And I have to end by asking if you would teach your own children the same?

So what is the goal of your wing chun? Seriously why are you training a martial art what do you hope to get out of it?

Because if its fitness, strength, longevity, flexibility meditation etc there are better ways to go about it that martial arts, ways specifically designed with that express purpose in mind

PS anyone else notice the distinct lack of response by the wing chun peeps on this board

[Buddha_Fist]

PS anyone else notice the distinct lack of response by the wing chun peeps on this board

Maybe because the discussion is a waste of time?

Of course is fighting the primary goal of a martial art. Benefits like physical fitness, stress relieve, etc. are simply byproducts and can also be achieved by a wide range of other activities. The motivation for training a martial art varies from one person to another, but the goal is typically to learn to defend themselves, to learn how to fight.

Walking around in a pajama, smoking incense, talking New Age non-sense, and not being able to fight is not Ving Tsun! Ving Tsun is a great Chinese boxing method, and it's a shame when it's watered down losing its focus.

[Lucas]

PS anyone else notice the distinct lack of response by the wing chun peeps on this board

I AM WING CHUN! :mad:

[GlennR]

PS anyone else notice the distinct lack of response by the wing chun peeps on this board[/QUOTE]


Didnt know it was mandatory to respond.
Incidentally, notice the non wing chun peeps beating their chests on this board>

[GlennR]

I know this may be a boring subject to most who post here, but I thought I would ask why so many of you feel like fighting is the goal of your Wing Chun training?

Whether it's street fighting or competitive fighting, why do you want to take Wing Chun into that domain in the first place? Who told you that fighting others (and your own family!) is what training Wing Chun is about? How much do you get charged to learn how to beat your brothers and sisters?

And I have to end by asking if you would teach your own children the same?

Wing chun-Martial Art-Fighting........ pretty obvious to me

Learning how to fight/martial art isnt about "how to beat your brothers and sisters", its about applying the skill set learnt in training, be it street or sport fighting.

And your comment regarding children shows that you feel there is a moral implication in "fighting". There isnt unless you assault someone.

Sorry, but in my book, if you are not focusing on the fighting its sporting masturbation

Try Yoga instead (its very good!)

GlennR

[Wayfaring]

I know this may be a boring subject to most who post here, but I thought I would ask why so many of you feel like fighting is the goal of your Wing Chun training?

Not necessarily the goal, but a vital part of the learning process.



Whether it's street fighting or competitive fighting, why do you want to take Wing Chun into that domain in the first place?

Because that is the baseline of quality control. It is universally measurable. It ensures you are not training in an art of folklore by people with questionable skillsets while being falsely sold on gaining skill in "self defense", which is dangerous.



Who told you that fighting others (and your own family!) is what training Wing Chun is about?

Nobody. It's an inherent part of learning a "martial" art. As a performance or recital is an inherent part of learning to dance - the quality of the show or performance proves out the learning program.



How much do you get charged to learn how to beat your brothers and sisters?

Varies with the school. Why are you worried about it?


And I have to end by asking if you would teach your own children the same?
Absolutely. It provides conditioning, self confidence, control over body and mind and reliable self defense.

With all that said, why is it exactly that you feel that fighting is NOT a vital part of your Wing Chun training?

How is it that you are able to determine whether or not what you are learning is viable in a threatening self defense situation?

How do you measure skill? Who can slap box with the fastest hands? Who pushes someone back from a line better? Who "looks" better? Who can "turn a steering wheel" better in chi sau?

If you have no measurable quality mark, how do you know that the art you are being taught is an "effective" martial art, as opposed to multi generations of folklore with a foreign Asian slant for appeal?

[imperialtaichi]

1. Our basic function is to survive; in some parts of the world, fighting is survival. Not so much in developed countries though.

2. Once our basic survival needs are met (such as food, shelter etc) we have time to do things for self development; be it religion, art, sport etc.

If you ask why do WC; then I ask why not?

Of course, if one builds a car, even purely for "collector" purpose, one would still want to take it out for a drive. It's not about fighting brothers or sisters, it's about expressing what one had worked very hard for. If anyone thinks that this is pointless, then we might as well give away all the non-essential items in our house and live like a hermit.

In the Western World, we have free choice. I choose Wing Chun.

Cheers,
John

[Eric_H]

Life is fighting, survival is fighting - why wouldn't one want to learn how to fight?

Honestly, the culture, self development and all that other stuff came about from the culture of fighting. Same as in the southern USA - they were once known for their politeness because of the frequency of duels. Out of necessity of not stepping on toes to cause conflict their culture changed. CMA isn't that much different in that respect.

Honestly LoneTiger, your position on this thread has made me lose some respect for you. I fight to hone my skills and detect weaknesses which I cannot find on my own, if you are not doing the same then I would question your qualifications as a martial artist.

[Phil Redmond]

Wing Chun was developed to fight the Manchu. It is a MARTIAL (war) art. I still don't believe that question was asked :confused:

[zuti car]

Question is ok, maybe just not precise as it suppose to be. I think the real question is -why people in Wing Chun have a need to compete ?Real fight , life and death situation fight is something completely different from any kind of competition , no mater how competition its selfe is brutal as long as it have the rules and life is not in danger that is not real fight .I was in the war , first line of fire , i was stabded with a knife in a bar fight so i can tell the difference . Nothing can prepapare people for real fight , except the real fight , and there is only one way to test how good is your art in reality but i would not recommend anyone to try that because there is extremly high probabilty that he will not survive testing .

[anerlich]

Wing Chun centre and straight line concepts come from the pole

According to whom? Based on what?

The canonical history has it that the pole was not introduced until WC had been going for a generation, so this argument is pretty dubious IMO.

The ability to defend oneself brings confidence. I do WC for defence, not because I like fist fighting, let alone fighting with weapons. I do enjoy wrestling and competitive BJJ rolling.

Some people like fighting. You may think that that makes them less evolved than you or something, but you might be wrong.

Most people end up finding other goals or benefits in the training besides the combative aspects, but just about anyone who takes it up likes the idea of being able to fight or at least defend themselves effectively. If they claim otherwise, they are fooling themselves but not anyone else.


How much do you get charged to learn how to beat your brothers and sisters?

I think that's commonly called a "loaded question".

How much do YOU charge students to teach them how to lose?

FWIW, I have two brothers who don't do WC, and no sisters. One's better at chess than me, but I kick his a$$ in first person shooter games.

And I stopped paying fees once I started teaching at my instructor's school.


And why learn Wing Chun to do that when there are so many other arts out there these days

I chose an instructor rather than an art for WC. IMO if you only practise one MA you're missing out, but I guess some are happy as underachievers ;)

If you want to push an agenda or criticise other's motivations, Spencer, just do it, rather than disguise it poorly as a questionnaire.


PS anyone else notice the distinct lack of response by the wing chun peeps on this board

I don't think Spencer wants responses, he wants "fighters" to argue with.

[LoneTiger108]

It's kinda cool to see everyone digging into this thread. And no, I don't want fighters to argue with I'm truly interested in peoples mindsets and reasoning behind training for the fight, when that said fight may never arrive (unless you're into the competition vibe)

For the people who are ranting on about Wing Chun being a MARTIAL art, then read what I wrote about weaponry, as I believe that should be the focus of our trainig, especially at an advanced stage. My 'example' of Kanazawa Jo method highlights this, and please to throw Japanese terms at me is a joke. I was 11 or something when I met and trained with him, so leave my crap memory alone!!

So, I accept people criticisms of my approach to this debate, but I ask that you look at my questions and at least try to answer them before attacking me for an opinion. An opinion I might add, that is shared by many who don't post here.

And for you career guys out there, I don't charge anything to anyone because I do not teach/coach for a living and when I mention fighting 'brothers' I mean your kung fu brothers, not your blood relatives (doh!)

Maybe my question should have been different. But who here will be honest with me and say eacatly what feeling they get from fighting, or let's say sparring (which is totally different imho!) Again, I aint against it I'm trying to figure out why it's so highly regarded when Wing Chun as a system should be looking at its weaponry more. That's all. :cool:

[LoneTiger108]

Honestly LoneTiger, your position on this thread has made me lose some respect for you. I fight to hone my skills and detect weaknesses which I cannot find on my own, if you are not doing the same then I would question your qualifications as a martial artist.

That's okay. I'm not here to gain anyones 'respect' or be idolized or make money from the easily led! :D Respect comes from being in the same room as a Martial Artist, not from random posts on a forum ;)

I'm happy for you if fighting is how you assess your skills, I like to use other methods too and as for 'qualifications', pleeeeaaaazzzeee. :eek:

[LoneTiger108]

The canonical history has it that the pole was not introduced until WC had been going for a generation, so this argument is pretty dubious IMO.

And so is any unproven 'his-story'. If you haven't trained it, don't comment because you make yourself look and sound a little ignorant. Lee Shing was known for his weaponry expertise, and his own stories of our poles history make much more sense than anything else I have personally researched. Why is it with Wing Chun?? Answer me this and we can talk...


Some people like fighting. You may think that that makes them less evolved than you or something, but you might be wrong.

Not at all! In fact I think it takes a certain type of person to train to fight for competition. But I do not like the way that competition has become more 'gladiator' type barbarism in a cage. From over 500 students I have seen and trained with I have met possibly 4 that could be trained fighters. Everyone else simply wasn't interested, or couldn't take the training.

Most people end up finding other goals or benefits in the training besides the combative aspects, but just about anyone who takes it up likes the idea of being able to fight or at least defend themselves effectively. If they claim otherwise, they are fooling themselves but not anyone else.


If you want to push an agenda or criticise other's motivations, Spencer, just do it, rather than disguise it poorly as a questionnaire.

Of course, that is what I'm doing! Totally missed that one :confused:

[LoneTiger108]

Wing Chun was developed to fight the Manchu. It is a MARTIAL (war) art. I still don't believe that question was asked :confused:

And so why fight with your empty hands on the battlefield?? You of all people I thiought may have more to contribute here, especially considering the 'arm hacking' thread!!!

Where are your knoves, why do you practise the pole?? Are you telling me that after all your years the end objective of our treasured art is to fight with empty hands???!!! :confused:

[LoneTiger108]

Because that is the baseline of quality control. It is universally measurable. It ensures you are not training in an art of folklore by people with questionable skillsets while being falsely sold on gaining skill in "self defense", which is dangerous.

Sorry but you are mistaken imho. Wing Chun competitions are not universal. Fighting UFC style in a cage is universal. I've always thought the best place for Wing Chun fighting is in the officiallly sanctioned Sanda (Sanshou) arena, but that's just me.


With all that said, why is it exactly that you feel that fighting is NOT a vital part of your Wing Chun training?

Beacuse I've had the fight trained out of me by now! I no longer have the hunger to taste blood my friend, that died a while ago when people got seriously hurt. :o


How is it that you are able to determine whether or not what you are learning is viable in a threatening self defense situation?

Have you trained stamina of your Wing Chun sansau? Constantly applied under pressured attacks from numerous individuals? Let's say 108 times in one go? If not, why not? I think that assesses your skill in application more so than one on one but that's just my opinion.

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1093522]How do you measure skill? Who can slap box with the fastest hands? Who pushes someone back from a line better? Who "looks" better? Who can "turn a steering wheel" better in chi sau?[/QUIOTE]

That deserves no response whatsoever. Good luck at your own wheel turning masquerades. ;)

[LoneTiger108]

Of course is fighting the primary goal of a martial art. Benefits like physical fitness, stress relieve, etc. are simply byproducts and can also be achieved by a wide range of other activities. The motivation for training a martial art varies from one person to another, but the goal is typically to learn to defend themselves, to learn how to fight.

Agreed to a point, but I'm asking why YOU want to fight?? When there are other skillsets to train that develop this ability.

And FWIW I think self defense and fighting ARE polar opposites. There is nothing in my self defence manual that justifies maiming or seriously injuring my attacker. A simple running technique normally works!! :D

[LoneTiger108]

So what is the goal of your wing chun? Seriously why are you training a martial art what do you hope to get out of it?

Okay. Last post of the day on this subject. :D

Initially, I wanted to be Bruce Lee! :o The I started Karate because of long term bullying, which my bruvva used to deal with. I was 9.

By the time I found my Wing Chun Sifu I was 18 and looking for that 'next level' in my development. Namely weaponry and cultural exchange. I still feel blessed to have learnt from Sifu Joseph Man, who I still see today. I'm now 36.

I don't hope to get anything out of my Martial Arts 'financially' unless the opportunity presents itself through demonstrations or seminars. Of course, the people that are interested tend to be from my direct kung fu family, as they too have wuestions about my teachers methods. I simply want to present what I know from my own home online, which is my Flystudio project, because I feel that not enough information is available about my Sigung Lee Shing and I rarely see certain training presented, like knife against pole as an example. And some of what I do see is a mishmash of bad habits and lack of understanding imho.

When I first learnt Wing Chun there was talk of rules, of culture, of respect, honour, loyalty and righteousness. All these virtues are within other Traditional Chinese Martial Arts and should be present in Wing Chun too. And I do not see it these days, especially when we are being targetted by wrestlers and kickboxers who are telling us how we should be fighting!

If we are to learn to fight, fight like a Wing Chun practitioner and prove that it works because I haven't even seen that yet and we all think we're great fighters!! Don't make me laugh... I've met better trained bricklayers :D

So if what you're training is NOT improving your fighting prowess and you really want to fight, have you not thought for a second about what other methods WITHIN Wing Chun will help?? Mind you, you will have to source a Sifu that will teach you for that purpose and like I've said, there are very few who will.

[trubblman]

There is also a reason you will never see a FMA be very effective in empty hand training as compared to systems that train, primerily empty hands and that is because armed doesn't translate that will to unarmed.

Its a fine theory but one that has been shown to be quite incorrect, in fact, going from empty hand to armed makes more sense than the reverse ( typically).
.

That's one of the most laughable comments I have ever heard on here. Maybe I am misreading this but if you know FMA who arent good fighters unarmed then you dont know that many. My experience with FMA people is that they tend to be very effective without weapons.

[bennyvt]

yip man wanted people to go and fight with Vt, it is well known that his better fighters got more attention

[trubblman]

It is well documented that the ultimate goal of most chinese martial arts was not fighting prowess 'per se'.

[couch]

So if what you're training is NOT improving your fighting prowess and you really want to fight, have you not thought for a second about what other methods WITHIN Wing Chun will help?? Mind you, you will have to source a Sifu that will teach you for that purpose and like I've said, there are very few who will.

Ah! You've discovered something.

Wing Chun training {often does not equal} ability to fight.

So where's the missing link? Not some Sifu. It's the training approach itself.

And then my free willed mind, after 17 years in the martial arts, doesn't believe that somebody else's "real" or "complete" Wing Chun has the answers. That's insanity: doing the same thing over and over trying to get the result I want.

It's in the actual training itself where things break down. And the only responsible for the outcome and the path to get there is me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

((Kanazawa was/is good. He also started doing taichi to become softer, if I recall correctly))

joy chaudhuri

Indeed, as did Oyama, Nakayama and many others.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's one of the most laughable comments I have ever heard on here. Maybe I am misreading this but if you know FMA who arent good fighters unarmed then you dont know that many. My experience with FMA people is that they tend to be very effective without weapons.

Yes, you did misunderstand.
Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been.
FMA that go directly from armed to unarmed are NOT as effective as fighters that start off stricly empty hand.
The "armed to unarmed" relation needs to be modified.
As for who I know that are FMA- my exposure has been to Pekiti-trisia, and the Inosanto line and the DBMA.
And while there is a "pig headness" on the PT line about empty hand work ( by some), the consensus from the people I have meet in the DBMA and Inosanto line is that while empty hand work does translate some FROM the armed work ( in particular the stick work), it is not AS effective as focusing primarily on empty hand, which is of course common sense.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is well documented that the ultimate goal of most chinese martial arts was not fighting prowess 'per se'.

Please, do tell about this "well documented" view.

[LoneTiger108]

yip man wanted people to go and fight with Vt, it is well known that his better fighters got more attention

And you of course heard that from the man himself?? Thought not. :(

[m1k3]

Agreed to a point, but I'm asking why YOU want to fight?? When there are other skillsets to train that develop this ability.

And FWIW I think self defense and fighting ARE polar opposites. There is nothing in my self defence manual that justifies maiming or seriously injuring my attacker. A simple running technique normally works!! :D

Point 2 first. I agree, self defense and fighting are polar opposites. Fighting is what happens when you self defense fails.

As for the maiming or seriously injuring your attacker, what makes you think you have the skills and ability to maim someone? That is hubris and is usually the sign of a person who doesn't fight/spar/roll as a part of their training. Humility is a major by product of competitive training because you learn how easy it is to lose. Your maiming skills are just a part of your imagination.

I want to fight and train to fight for a bunch of reasons.

That is why I train an art that allows me to roll and compete with effective techniques that can be applied safely to my opponent / training partner.

I roll because it is very satisfying win or lose.
I roll because in today's society it's good to have a place where you can test yourself physically against partners of different skill levels.
I roll because its fun and I roll because it helps keep the demons at bay.

People are the products of millions of years of evolution and just because we consider ourselves civilized it doesn't mean those primitive urges don't exist. Rolling gives me a way to satisfy those urges in a safe environment with like minded people.

I like rolling because it makes me feel superior to those people who don't train. (Not a good reason but it's true).

I roll for the sense of accomplishment and the sense of failure. Because it feels good to strive and overcome and because losing shows you where you need to improve and keeps your head from getting too big.

I roll because it hardens you up. Grappling is a physical intense exercise with the mental aspect of chess.

I roll because it gives me a good foundation for self defense. And no I don't buy into the BJJ is a complete martial art propaganda.

I roll because it is good to get primitive some times.


This was an honest answer and I hope that clears some things for you.:)

[JamesC]

Indeed, as did Oyama, Nakayama and many others.

This is the reason I have always liked the Okinawan styles more, I think. Particularly Shorin Ryu.

They seem to be what we would consider soft-hard styles. Most likely due to their White Crane influence.

[couch]

And you of course heard that from the man himself?? Thought not. :(

And where did you hear about the weapons leading the system? From the man himself? Thought not.

Don't play superiority games pretending that your lineage and knowledge of Wing Chun is more complete or something.

I know how to create a thread in order to try and get people to see my lineage-superior-non-fighting world view, too. I choose not to (and I choose to fight, too).

Down the lineage chain, many people have quoted Ip Man telling people not to believe him and test what he is teaching out for themselves. To me, that reeks of a Sifu promoting individualistic growth and self-reliance in his students.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is the reason I have always liked the Okinawan styles more, I think. Particularly Shorin Ryu.

They seem to be what we would consider soft-hard styles. Most likely due to their White Crane influence.

Indeed, my exposure to Okinawan Goju and even Uechi ryu, made me realize truly how much the southern systems influenced them at the "advanced levels", systems like Hung Kuen, Southern Mantis, Fukien White crane, Five ancestors and such.

[LoneTiger108]

Ah! You've discovered something.

Wing Chun training {often does not equal} ability to fight.

So where's the missing link? Not some Sifu. It's the training approach itself.

I disagree AND agree. YES it is totally down to the individual to take his/her training to a level that enables quality sparring/fighting as it is the student who has to turn up at the hall and train. BUT I think the role of the Sifu and kung fu brothers/sisters is just as important.

1. The Sifu will have a set curriculum for such competitive purposes (if he believes in competition!) and will be able to work on an individual basis with the student to create a competitive fighting machine. Again, I personally don't think you will find a Traditional Sifu who will do this, especially if he is of Chinese origin.

2. Without a constant stream of new and skilled training partners you will never achieve your best level or standard to compete.

Again, I personally would pferer to pass on students to a fight camp per se as I think they will develop more quickly for sports orientated comps there than they will doing SLT for 5 years. ;)

[LoneTiger108]

As for the maiming or seriously injuring your attacker, what makes you think you have the skills and ability to maim someone? That is hubris and is usually the sign of a person who doesn't fight/spar/roll as a part of their training. Humility is a major by product of competitive training because you learn how easy it is to lose. Your maiming skills are just a part of your imagination.

Tell me if it's part of may imagination if I have actually been there and done that? Do I have to have served in the Armed forces to have seriously hurt anyone? Or do I now need to produce a clip or photos??

Seriously too, I believe I am humble, and if I'm honest it was only a few occassions but enough to make me re-think my reasons for training Martial Arts and the importance of self defence (ie. do not hurt the attacker!!)


I want to fight and train to fight for a bunch of reasons...

...This was an honest answer and I hope that clears some things for you.:)

Thanks for actually answering the original question, and I for one appreciate the honesty. :)

[LoneTiger108]

Don't play superiority games pretending that your lineage and knowledge of Wing Chun is more complete or something.

Wasn't my intention, but why shouldn't I??? :confused: Lee Shings Wing Chun is very very underestimated because he was not a commercial Sifu and my own Sifu learnt directly from him for over 35 years whilst working in his restaurants and developing charitable activities for Londons Chinese Community. So, I personally believe what I have seen IS more complete than others out there. I'm not saying superior, but I will say more complete!! :D


Down the lineage chain, many people have quoted Ip Man telling people not to believe him and test what he is teaching out for themselves. To me, that reeks of a Sifu promoting individualistic growth and self-reliance in his students.

Yes it does, and it also 'reeks' of a Sifu who washes his hands of his teachings, he can always blame you for your own mistakes. But he didn't teach everyone in this manner, so I'm told. My point is, we can never know what he said because too many do not even believe his closest students or even his own sons words!! I'm trying to be realistic here.

And no, I wasn't told that empty hand originates from our weaponry by Ip Man either, but I do believe that my Sigung was taught that way, as it was taught to my Sifu who taught the same idea to me and every student he teaches. And actually across the board the Lee Shing family teach that way. It's just that some have not been as public as others.

I know it all sounds a bit 'lineage proud', but hell, shoot me for being loyal :cool:

[free2flow]

Yes, you did misunderstand.
Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been.
FMA that go directly from armed to unarmed are NOT as effective as fighters that start off stricly empty hand.
The "armed to unarmed" relation needs to be modified.
As for who I know that are FMA- my exposure has been to Pekiti-trisia, and the Inosanto line and the DBMA.
And while there is a "pig headness" on the PT line about empty hand work ( by some), the consensus from the people I have meet in the DBMA and Inosanto line is that while empty hand work does translate some FROM the armed work ( in particular the stick work), it is not AS effective as focusing primarily on empty hand, which is of course common sense.

I believe and agree with you sanjuro. Some styles though are more conducive to development of good stand-up empty hand skills than others. Some factors will include the preferred range and style of fighting and more importantly the training method used by the style.

[Wayfaring]

Sorry but you are mistaken imho. Wing Chun competitions are not universal. Fighting UFC style in a cage is universal. I've always thought the best place for Wing Chun fighting is in the officiallly sanctioned Sanda (Sanshou) arena, but that's just me.

Of course WC competitions are "not universal". Actually they are "not existent" throughout most of the populated world. sanda/sanshou is a decent arena.


Beacuse I've had the fight trained out of me by now! I no longer have the hunger to taste blood my friend, that died a while ago when people got seriously hurt. :o

You know they actually make gear whereby you can train without getting seriously injured. I know this is virtually unknown to the WC world, but just throwing it out there.


Have you trained stamina of your Wing Chun sansau? Constantly applied under pressured attacks from numerous individuals? Let's say 108 times in one go? If not, why not? I think that assesses your skill in application more so than one on one but that's just my opinion.

Not following here. This sounds kind of weird. What do you mean by "trained stamina of your Wing Chun sansau?" English please.

Are you talking about sparring sessions with multiple opponents? Sure. Hate to break this to you but a lot of times striking coaches who train fighters seem to find all sorts of diabolical ways to deplete your oxygen supply during sessions.



That deserves no response whatsoever. Good luck at your own wheel turning masquerades. ;)
It deserves no response because you have no intelligent response? Seriously, outside of at least sparring with known quality opponents who can fight, how exactly is it that you measure quality in a fighting art?

[LoneTiger108]

You know they actually make gear whereby you can train without getting seriously injured. I know this is virtually unknown to the WC world, but just throwing it out there.

What you mention here had a massive impact on forming my earlier opinions of competitive fighting when I was younger, and I feel it is still very relevant today.

If you feel no/less pain sparring because of said pads etc are you actually training for real or creating bad habits?


Are you talking about sparring sessions with multiple opponents?

Yes. Let's say the infamous tan da against 108 different attacks :D


It deserves no response because you have no intelligent response? Seriously, outside of at least sparring with known quality opponents who can fight, how exactly is it that you measure quality in a fighting art?

That's exactly my point, why are we so hellbent on labeling Wing Chun as a fighting art? Why do we have to fight eachother to prove what we do will work well enough in a real situation?

You only know it's real when it's real. No competition can emulate that 'real-ness' :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

You only know it's real when it's real. No competition can emulate that 'real-ness'

True, but they get far closer than anything else.

[m1k3]

true, but they get far closer than anything else.

qft

,,,,,,,,,,

[LoneTiger108]

True, but they get far closer than anything else.

I accept that 100% :) Always have.

But why?? Especially when most of the older, maybe more traditional Martial Arts say otherwise?

I was first taught Shotokan, and something I was told on the first day had a massive impression (again I was 9!) It was my first Sensei who said "If you want to be Bruce Lee, leave now because we don't teach you to fight others or your fellow students, we teach you to fight yourself"

My only Wing Chun Sifu said something very similar, using the analogy that Martial Arts is specifically for self development, conquering your own demons if you like through training, not fighting. Learning how to help the helpless etc etc

Looking over the thread, many people are talking of sparring scenarios and how it helps their art or makes them feel good/better/safer etc but I still view sparring as a light and protected (pads etc) activity. It isn't 'real' and never will be.

It's not the best way to judge your Wing Chun skill imhhhhho but is is ONE way, I'm not arguing that point. The best way is through the curriculum and that should (and commonly does) include weaponry. That is where we're all heading. The peak of the mountain imho. Not empty hand pattacake drills... :o

[Wayfaring]

I disagree AND agree. YES it is totally down to the individual to take his/her training to a level that enables quality sparring/fighting as it is the student who has to turn up at the hall and train. BUT I think the role of the Sifu and kung fu brothers/sisters is just as important.

So what exactly is that role if they don't train quality sparring / fighting in class?



1. The Sifu will have a set curriculum for such competitive purposes (if he believes in competition!) and will be able to work on an individual basis with the student to create a competitive fighting machine. Again, I personally don't think you will find a Traditional Sifu who will do this, especially if he is of Chinese origin.

This is simply handled in fighting schools. They have a "regular" class, and a "competition" class. Or if numbers are low and time slots are scarce, they split "regular" class into groups, and people spar with their same level skill.


2. Without a constant stream of new and skilled training partners you will never achieve your best level or standard to compete.

Without classes set up with a realistic goal there is nothing attracting new and skilled training partners.


Again, I personally would pferer to pass on students to a fight camp per se as I think they will develop more quickly for sports orientated comps there than they will doing SLT for 5 years. ;)
Only elite level fighters have "fight camps". They need $$$ to bring in training partners and specific coaches including strength and conditioning, technique specialists, nutritionists. There are many, many resources being deployed to focus on one person.

This is not the model for any amateur level competitor. The lower level competitors rise up out of regular classes to competition oriented classes. There you still have usually one resource as a trainer focused on many people.

[LoneTiger108]

So what exactly is that role if they don't train quality sparring / fighting in class?

Do you train Wing Chun??

From memory there were five areas of training that was considered mandatory.

1. Form
2. Equipment
3. Interaction
4. Weaponry
5. Language & literature

Sparring falls into the 'interactive' bracket which also includes the basics like Chisau, Looksau etc. So as you can see there is plenty to get on with, and everything 'should' benefit your overall performance ability, whether that be fighting in comps or demonstrating in front of The Queen! If not, something has gone wrong imho.


Only elite level fighters have "fight camps". They need $$$ to bring in training partners and specific coaches including strength and conditioning, technique specialists, nutritionists. There are many, many resources being deployed to focus on one person.

Now THAT'S what I'm talking about and this would be my approach if I was to start a career in coaching fighters (which I would never do!) But we have regular posters on here who claim to be the bees kness at fighting with their Wing Chun yet can not show any evidence that they take this approach. Actually, few can supply clips of themselves!

Which brings me to the question, why do you want to fight?

The answer imhhho should be FOR MONEY!!!!!!! ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I accept that 100% :) Always have.

But why?? Especially when most of the older, maybe more traditional Martial Arts say otherwise?

I was first taught Shotokan, and something I was told on the first day had a massive impression (again I was 9!) It was my first Sensei who said "If you want to be Bruce Lee, leave now because we don't teach you to fight others or your fellow students, we teach you to fight yourself"

My only Wing Chun Sifu said something very similar, using the analogy that Martial Arts is specifically for self development, conquering your own demons if you like through training, not fighting. Learning how to help the helpless etc etc

Looking over the thread, many people are talking of sparring scenarios and how it helps their art or makes them feel good/better/safer etc but I still view sparring as a light and protected (pads etc) activity. It isn't 'real' and never will be.

It's not the best way to judge your Wing Chun skill imhhhhho but is is ONE way, I'm not arguing that point. The best way is through the curriculum and that should (and commonly does) include weaponry. That is where we're all heading. The peak of the mountain imho. Not empty hand pattacake drills... :o

I retired from competition when the demands where too much for me and my family.
For some, like Dale Franks, they compete will into their 100's :D

But before I retired I had competed in full contact formats of different types for almost 20 years ( one and off).
I truly do NOT think that you can develop your MA to THAT level without it.

[Phil Redmond]

This is the reason I have always liked the Okinawan styles more, I think. Particularly Shorin Ryu.

They seem to be what we would consider soft-hard styles. Most likely due to their White Crane influence.
Yep, I studied Shorin Ryu with Eizo Shimabuku in Kin Village Okinawa 1966-67

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yep, I studied Shorin Ryu with Eizo Shimabuku in Kin Village Okinawa 1966-67

Lucky *******, he was one of the VERY good ones.
I think it was Shimabukuro...

[JamesC]

Yep, I studied Shorin Ryu with Eizo Shimabuku in Kin Village Okinawa 1966-67

:eek:

That's awesome Phil. That guy is simply amazing. The style of Shorin Ryu I practiced was from Kyan as well.

Lucky *******... :eek:

[Phil Redmond]

Lucky *******, he was one of the VERY good ones.
I think it was Shimabukuro...

Yeah I spelled it wrong. His brother Tatsuo taught at the Camp Hansen Marine base gym. From what I understood they had a strained relationship. We were told not to go to his class. But as a young Marine I watched Tatsuo teach anyway. :D Tatsuo used a vertical fist in his forms but using the top knuckles.

[KC Elbows]

If one teaches a martial style, they have a responsibility to know the system in a way that requires a lot of drills that approach fighting, and a lot of crossing hands, not simply regurgitate notes from other people who did. To not do so is poor ethics, and so one cannot claim to teach the style, not put in the time crossing hands in a constructive manner, and fulfill a traditional culture that places a premium on ethics, or one is falling into the trap that Mencius spoke of when he said it is a fault of many people to be fond of being seen as a teacher.

Further, it is a logical fallacy to assume that, by training in fight related practices with others, that there is animosity toward those others. In actual fights, there may be, but drills? Sparring? Not necessarily. I think it's a sign of poor character to have animosity toward a sparring partner, not a necessary condition for sparring.

[Phil Redmond]

Lucky *******, he was one of the VERY good ones.
I think it was Shimabukuro...
I didn't know that back then. To me he was just some old guy that taught Naha Te. After I got back to the States I mentioned his name to someone who said he was really famous.
Youth is sometimes wasted on the young. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah I spelled it wrong. His brother Tatsuo taught at the Camp Hansen Marine base gym. From what I understood they had a strained relationship. We were told not to go to his class. But as a young Marine I watched Tatsuo teach anyway. :D Tatsuo used a vertical fist in his forms but using the top knuckles.

It might be a phonetic thing, I h ave spellings for him BOTh ways.
Tatsuo was the creator of Isshin ryu, I never met him but went to a seminar that Angi Uezu did, good stuff.
They said that Tatsu could drive a 6" nail through wood with his shuto.
Sweet.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I didn't know that back then. To me he was just some old guy that taught Naha Te. After I got back to the States I mentioned his name to someone who said he was really famous.
Youth is sometimes wasted on the young. ;)

Ain't it though?

[sanjuro_ronin]

If one teaches a martial style, they have a responsibility to know the system in a way that requires a lot of drills that approach fighting, and a lot of crossing hands, not simply regurgitate notes from other people who did. To not do so is poor ethics, and so one cannot claim to teach the style, not put in the time crossing hands in a constructive manner, and fulfill a traditional culture that places a premium on ethics, or one is falling into the trap that Mencius spoke of when he said it is a fault of many people to be fond of being seen as a teacher.

Further, it is a logical fallacy to assume that, by training in fight related practices with others, that there is animosity toward those others. In actual fights, there may be, but drills? Sparring? Not necessarily. I think it's a sign of poor character to have animosity toward a sparring partner, not a necessary condition for sparring.

I was never as good a sparrer as I was a fighter, never got "upset" enough at my sparring partners.
Always viewed them as my best friends since they were helping me train, but that usually kept me from really going to town on them.

[Phil Redmond]

Wow, Kin Village has changed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HKfHlr_NNs

[KC Elbows]

I was never as good a sparrer as I was a fighter, never got "upset" enough at my sparring partners.
Always viewed them as my best friends since they were helping me train, but that usually kept me from really going to town on them.

I recognize those limits on sparring, but it's important training toward having fighting skills. Fights lack those limits, but it's all towaard the same goals, but removing contact makes the training weird to me, it falls into form and compliance drills, and getting together in groups to do form seems slightly anti-social to me, and compliance drills even more so, as in, let's work together, now do exactly what I expect.

I find it far more interesting when a partner's contribution challenges my skills than simply confirming them.

Anyway, I think the idea that fight training is barbarous is not true, in many it seems to teach them how to manage and have perspective on violence. On the flip side, I've met a lot of people who use the idea that fighting is barbarous as a knife to the reputations of their competitors in the martial arts feild who happen to compete, which is not exactly civil.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I recognize those limits on sparring, but it's important training toward having fighting skills. Fights lack those limits, but it's all towaard the same goals, but removing contact makes the training weird to me, it falls into form and compliance drills, and getting together in groups to do form seems slightly anti-social to me, and compliance drills even more so, as in, let's work together, now do exactly what I expect.

I find it far more interesting when a partner's contribution challenges my skills than simply confirming them.

Anyway, I think the idea that fight training is barbarous is not true, in many it seems to teach them how to manage and have perspective on violence. On the flip side, I've met a lot of people who use the idea that fighting is barbarous as a knife to the reputations of their competitors in the martial arts feild who happen to compete, which is not exactly civil.

Sparring gives you and understanding of the endurance and skill needed to fight, what works FOR YOU and what doesn't.
Without it you have simply conjecture.
Competition teaches you about pain, intent and heart.

[Phil Redmond]

Sparring gives you and understanding of the endurance and skill needed to fight, what works FOR YOU and what doesn't.
Without it you have simply conjecture.
Competition teaches you about pain, intent and heart.
No fight training. No martial art. It's not about ego, hurting people or anything like that. It's about competent readiness.

[KC Elbows]

Sparring gives you and understanding of the endurance and skill needed to fight, what works FOR YOU and what doesn't.
Without it you have simply conjecture.
Competition teaches you about pain, intent and heart.

I follow you, I wasn't arguing that they are the same, more that their practices are not barbaric by default, but that the state of mind is based on the mind, not the practice, that we bring into it our own aggression, it isn't magically created by the act of training, that it might heighten aggression that is already there, but avoiding the experience isn't a virtue, if that makes any sense.

While I've sparred a decent amount, I've not competed, so much of my observations of the flip side are based on the better of the fighters I've known, who seem civilized, for the most part, while some I've seen who speak against it seem, by their passive aggression, to be more than willing to hurt others.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I follow you, I wasn't arguing that they are the same, more that their practices are not barbaric by default, but that the state of mind is based on the mind, not the practice, that we bring into it our own aggression, it isn't magically created by the act of training, that it might heighten aggression that is already there, but avoiding the experience isn't a virtue, if that makes any sense.

While I've sparred a decent amount, I've not competed, so much of my observations of the flip side are based on the better of the fighters I've known, who seem civilized, for the most part, while some I've seen who speak against it seem, by their passive aggression, to be more than willing to hurt others.

I was juts trying to express that we need BOTH, to what degree of course depends on the person and their goals, but I do believe that both develop different parts of a persons MA skills and characters.
Of course IF you can get in the "real deal" that also helps.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have found more "psychos" in the TMA than in the competition oriented sport systems.

[KC Elbows]

I have found more "psychos" in the TMA than in the competition oriented sport systems.

On the flip side, I'd be willing to bet that becomes less true. The early days of mma, it was mostly people who already had martial arts experience who were seeing the benefits of bjj and related styles, but the current marketing seems to have attracted a different sort of crowd, imo.

But it seems like you're right.

[sanjuro_ronin]

On the flip side, I'd be willing to bet that becomes less true. The early days of mma, it was mostly people who already had martial arts experience who were seeing the benefits of bjj and related styles, but the current marketing seems to have attracted a different sort of crowd, imo.

But it seems like you're right.

Time will tell and you may be right.

[couch]

Time will tell and you may be right.

Some good points by yourself and KC Elbows.

I'm on the side that I've met more 'really real' folks in the sports gyms than in the TMA clubs. Less ego, not more.

BUT! That could just be about the places themselves as well. Whatever the coaches/instructors breed is usually reflected in the types of people that join.

Just some thoughts...

[KC Elbows]

Some good points by yourself and KC Elbows.

I'm on the side that I've met more 'really real' folks in the sports gyms than in the TMA clubs. Less ego, not more.

BUT! That could just be about the places themselves as well. Whatever the coaches/instructors breed is usually reflected in the types of people that join.

Just some thoughts...

I agree with what you're saying re: some of the best guys I know to train with are from sports gyms, and they are good guys not just because of skill, but because they don' t have imaginary reasons they are superior that they must defend.

That said, most of the tma guys I hang with now have moved in the same direction, and the old style cma school(meaning forms and apps and conditioning and legendary stories about ko'ing some eighteen year old nobody), for much of the local kung fu, is dying. CMA here does not have the presence of tkd or karate, so there is very strong pressure to reform.

[Wayfaring]

If you feel no/less pain sparring because of said pads etc are you actually training for real or creating bad habits?

This is a common misconception. To deal with an aggressive possibly stronger, heavier or more athletic opponent in a self defense scenario, your responses have to be of a realistic force. If you never train hitting hard enough to hurt someone, you will not be conditioned to do so when you have to.


Yes. Let's say the infamous tan da against 108 different attacks :D

And this is better than competitive sparring?


That's exactly my point, why are we so hellbent on labeling Wing Chun as a fighting art? Why do we have to fight eachother to prove what we do will work well enough in a real situation?

Well, arguably some of the most well known martial artists like Jackie Chan had the bulk of their training in more of a wushu / dance academy than in fighting.

In the 60's through 80's most of your competition in martial arts was at least half doing forms, and some to music, and the other half point fighting. There were very small circles that did kickboxing or more full contact. Boxing of course has always done that. Bruce Lee was during that timeframe. So the public perception hasn't always been a realistic one.

People a lot of times want the quick fix, magical element that is promoted in martial arts - the knowledge to make you dangerous without training up skillsets.
As teachers it is a disservice to play that up and succumb to that mindset.

However, your underlying question in my perception has to do with whether or not WC is for the masses or just for people who want to become competitive fighters. Of course things have to be adapted for the masses. If people don't want to pad up and hit each other, they can pad up and hit pads. The cardio kickboxing classes do this and have mass appeal. So do Muy Thai classes with pads. Those things accomplish intermediate goals to develop cardio and striking power to deal with fighting, and introduce palatable intermediate steps to getting there. IMO every wing chun practitioner should learn how to wrap their hands to train striking properly, and should own proper gear including gloves - 16oz, 4oz MMA gloves, shin pads, cup, fitted mouthpiece. Headgear and personal pads like MT striking pads and focus mitts probably also.

The old "traditional" training methods of class - doing SLT for an hour, light chi sau, and out for dim sum and tea after don't accomplish much to develop skill in a so-called fighting or martial art. They probably never did, but when others are training more effectively around you it sticks out more.

It's not the effectiveness of the art - its the effectiveness of the training. Sheesh - Lyoto Machida just knocked out Randy Couture with a crane kick last Saturday. You know, like from "Karate Kid" that everyone makes fun of? Machida trained it up to be effective.


You only know it's real when it's real. No competition can emulate that 'real-ness' :eek:
I disagree. Those used to the pressures of competition are much better prepared to deal with similar pressures in a real situation. However people including competitors can always be stupid and not employ common sense or good judgement in real situations, regardless of how they train. So nothing is a panacea.

[Wayfaring]

I'm on the side that I've met more 'really real' folks in the sports gyms than in the TMA clubs. Less ego, not more.

I can extrapolate why.

In a sports gym where there is realistic sparring people coming in that are new that act like Captain D0uch3t@st1c with an overinflated opinion of themselves tend to not last long. They invoke an emotion where people go after them harder, and in a place with a reasonable amount of skill, they can get beat down pretty hard. That combined with their ego tends to have them not come back. If they do they usually do a 180 degree attitude adjustment.

This tends to work like Cesar "The Dog Whisperer's" home compound, which has 20-40 dogs of whom some are pretty tough. Newcomers fall in line as opposed to making trouble.

That type of environment actually is pretty good for martial arts in general.

[Frost]

I can extrapolate why.

In a sports gym where there is realistic sparring people coming in that are new that act like Captain D0uch3t@st1c with an overinflated opinion of themselves tend to not last long. They invoke an emotion where people go after them harder, and in a place with a reasonable amount of skill, they can get beat down pretty hard. That combined with their ego tends to have them not come back. If they do they usually do a 180 degree attitude adjustment.

This tends to work like Cesar "The Dog Whisperer's" home compound, which has 20-40 dogs of whom some are pretty tough. Newcomers fall in line as opposed to making trouble.

That type of environment actually is pretty good for martial arts in general.

add to this if you stick around in a good sports gym you get beat and tapped alot, its hard to have an ego when someone 60 pounds lighter than you knocks you out or sweeps you so your feet are level with your head (yes both happened to me)

[anerlich]

An opinion I might add, that is shared by many who don't post here.


And, I might add, also opposed by many who don't post here.I suggest you leave the legions of anonymous non-posters and their alleged opinions out of it.


If you haven't trained it, don't comment because you make yourself look and sound a little ignorant. .

I've been training with the pole for 20 years. Patronise someone else, OK, lest you end up looking and sounding a lot more than a little ignorant (if it's not already too late).


Lee Shing was known for his weaponry expertise, .

By whom exactly? Maybe those guys you mentioned before that don't post here? How was that alleged expertise measured, and what qualifications did the judges have? Were they independent?


and his own stories of our poles history make much more sense than anything else I have personally researched

Maybe you haven't done enough personal research, and/or what little you have done has suffered from confirmation bias.


And so is any unproven 'his-story'.

Lee Shing's would be in that category.

[goju]

[QUOTE=Frost;1094152] its hard to have an ego when someone 60 pounds lighter than you sweeps you so your feet are level with your head

Thanks god im not the only one that happend too :D

[anerlich]

On the flip side, I'd be willing to bet that becomes less true. The early days of mma, it was mostly people who already had martial arts experience who were seeing the benefits of bjj and related styles, but the current marketing seems to have attracted a different sort of crowd, imo.


That's true, but IMO it depends on the gym and the instructor. IMO the real "tough, hardcore" schools with all the tats and flaming skull T-Shirts don't produce the best competitors anyway. You can't learn as well in an environment where a mistake or failed experiment results in a significant injury.

[anerlich]

This was an honest answer and I hope that clears some things for you.

It was a good answer.

[Frost]

That's true, but IMO it depends on the gym and the instructor. IMO the real "tough, hardcore" schools don't produce the best competitors anyway. You can't learn as well in an environment where a mistake or failed experiment results in a significant injury.

the man speaks the truth

I train at a gym thats produced 6 guys that have fought in the UFC and the old pride events, i can count the number of serious accidents on 1 finger (new guy broke his arm in three places and shoulder whilst being thrown by his brother) people have been choked out, and knocked out but thats when serious pre comp training is going on

[KC Elbows]

That's true, but IMO it depends on the gym and the instructor. IMO the real "tough, hardcore" schools with all the tats and flaming skull T-Shirts don't produce the best competitors anyway. You can't learn as well in an environment where a mistake or failed experiment results in a significant injury.

I can't find the quote right now, but one of my favorite quotes is from Joe Frazier, where he says something to the effect of "a gym with frequent sparring injuries should be a red flag."

[jesper]

Some good points by yourself and KC Elbows.

I'm on the side that I've met more 'really real' folks in the sports gyms than in the TMA clubs. Less ego, not more.

BUT! That could just be about the places themselves as well. Whatever the coaches/instructors breed is usually reflected in the types of people that join.

Just some thoughts...

nothing more humbling then getting beaten up :)

[jesper]

[QUOTE=Frost;1094152] its hard to have an ego when someone 60 pounds lighter than you sweeps you so your feet are level with your head

Thanks god im not the only one that happend too :D

My first teacher told me that the man who never lost a fight never had one

[CFT]

I guess my point is, is that just a mindset alone can open up your WC training to a whole new level. You can't hit a 9 ball lined up with the pocket and your cue ball perfectly, without scratching, unless you use a backspin. What makes you think you can use a straight Wing Chun punch, and maintain your structure, unless you know what the recoil feels like from a human body?Nice post Matt.

You could hit a heavy bag for recoil, weight, motion. I guess that might be what Spencer is getting to. That there are other ways of training and testing.

But I still firmly hold to the belief that nothing 'artificial' can replicate the experience of facing someone who is hitting back.

[LoneTiger108]

I've been training with the pole for 20 years. Patronise someone else, OK, lest you end up looking and sounding a lot more than a little ignorant (if it's not already too late).

Okay. So you are an experienced pole player? So you must understand what I'm saying about the weaponry coming before the empty hand? What core concepts in WCK originate with the pole?


How was that alleged expertise measured, and what qualifications did the judges have? Were they independent?

Lee Shings skill and teaching methods were authorized and 'measured' by Ip Man himself dude. Who else do you think it was?

Other than that, this has develpoed into quite an informative thread so thanks for everyone who has posted their ideas and responses to the original question... :)

[Graham H]

So you must understand what I'm saying about the weaponry coming before the empty hand?



GH <<<<<<<pukes>>>>>>> :eek:

Fairplay you really are turning WC on its head aren't you bud?? Maybe Lee Shing took to many puffs on the opium pipe and maybe you should give up as well!! LOL

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Okay maybe you have a point...

Can't speak for Lee shing but my mind is pretty hazy from my youthful days :cool: Perhaps I heard it all wrong and should be listening to you WSL/PB guys

FWIW I aint trying to turn anything on it's head, this was just the way I, and every other student of my Sifus over the years, has been taught the pole.

[couch]

And then my friends started to harass me for even practicing kung fu. So we would play fight. Well, that didn't go too well at first and I was still having my a$$ handed to me. So, my focus completely changed to how to apply these movements I was learning into a real fruition i.e. fighting. Just with that mindset alone I almost immediately began to improve in, not only the play fighting with my friends, but also in Chi Sao.

This is a really great share.

This is what I'm talking about when I say the Wing Chun TRAINING has to change. The focus.

As you said, when you started sparring with your mates, even your focus in the Chi Sau changed.

Great stuff!

[CFT]

Okay. So you are an experienced pole player? So you must understand what I'm saying about the weaponry coming before the empty hand? What core concepts in WCK originate with the pole?


Fairplay you really are turning WC on its head aren't you bud?? Maybe Lee Shing took to many puffs on the opium pipe and maybe you should give up as well!! LOLBut it doesn't seem a million miles away from what Kevin G has written about applying the knife tactics to the empty hands?

[LoneTiger108]

But it doesn't seem a million miles away from what Kevin G has written about applying the knife tactics to the empty hands?

Agreed. He has also talked of the poles significance too ;) WSL did know his stuff!

[sanjuro_ronin]

But it doesn't seem a million miles away from what Kevin G has written about applying the knife tactics to the empty hands?

Empty hand to knife lends itself better than knife to empty hand from my experience.
Pretty much anything you do with your hands is applicable to the blade, but not the other way around.

[anerlich]

Okay. So you are an experienced pole player?

Oh, h3ll yeah. Just talk to my wife and girlfriends.


So you must understand what I'm saying about the weaponry coming before the empty hand?

* leaves aside too-obvious wisecrack about poles, empty hands and coming *

You haven't really said much other state your opinion that it does, substantiated only by an appeal to authority to Lee Shing and anecdotal evidence from your own experience and lineage, neither of which constitutes a proper argument that it has general or the only possible application to anyone else's WC development, pedagogy or effectiveness.


Lee Shings skill and teaching methods were authorized and 'measured' by Ip Man himself dude.

And you of course heard that from the [Yip] man himself?? Thought not.

[LoneTiger108]

And you of course heard that from the [Yip] man himself?? Thought not.

Apart from having issues translating your degree level lingo I thought that this comment was quite funny. :D

Oh! And the wisecracks! :) You seem to be a funny guy and I wish you well on your Wing Chun journey dude.

[anerlich]

I wish you well on your Wing Chun journey

Likewise....

[wolf3001]

Most martial art styles traditionally offered challenges it was fairly wide spread for local schools to challenge each other I think it's a part of martial tradition to fight. I don't learn martial arts to just go through the motions. I also don't go looking for trouble but I think that a real martial artist has to test their skills. Most good martial arts people do or have fought. By saying it has nothing to do with Wing Chun your neglecting part of it's past. How many students of Ip Man fought on rooftops and such back in Hong Kong.

[YouKnowWho]

My first teacher told me that the man who never lost a fight never had one
There is a difference between official tournament record and personal activity (street fight). Since there is no way to verify anybody's street fight record, we can only judge someone by his official tournament record. Many people declared formal retirement after become champ. At that point of time, his public record was "non-defeated (never lost a fight)". So the official record just stop at the moment. I'm sure some 20 years old may beat that champ up when that champ is in his 90 years old but that won't mean anything.

Some people:

- always lost in tournaments.
- start losing but ended with winning.
- became champ since his 1st tournament.

The world is not always fare.

[shawchemical]

Agreed to a point, but I'm asking why YOU want to fight?? When there are other skillsets to train that develop this ability.

And FWIW I think self defense and fighting ARE polar opposites. There is nothing in my self defence manual that justifies maiming or seriously injuring my attacker. A simple running technique normally works!! :D

Total bull****.

If you can't, or aren't prepared to fight and to win, you can NEVER defend yourself.

[LoneTiger108]

Total bull****.

If you can't, or aren't prepared to fight and to win, you can NEVER defend yourself.

We're on complete different paths then dude :)

Talking from a 100% DEFENSIVE perspective, why are you fighting to win?? Think of the guy that you're DEFENDING yourself against as your own Mother. Now, are you gonna smack her up to 'win' and prove a point? :eek:

All I'm asking is that you think about the language I'm using here...

[jesper]

We're on complete different paths then dude :)

Talking from a 100% DEFENSIVE perspective, why are you fighting to win?? Think of the guy that you're DEFENDING yourself against as your own Mother. Now, are you gonna smack her up to 'win' and prove a point? :eek:

All I'm asking is that you think about the language I'm using here...

you got beaten up alot by you mother? what an incredible stupid analog.

If someone wants to smash my head in I dont give F... who it is, im going to do my very best for them to go down instead.

[m1k3]

I have to say I'm with LoneTiger on this one. If you are fighting it means your self defense failed. Why do you even think about things like
If someone wants to smash my head in I dont give F... who it is, im going to do my very best for them to go down instead.? IRL most people don't have to worry about having their head smashed in. If you do it could be because you are hanging out with a bunch of idiots. Find better places to spend your time.

I train BJJ because I like to get primitive and test myself. But I am doing it in a constructive fashion.

When I trained WC the one school I went to kind of promoted the same type of nonsense you are spouting. Since switching to BJJ I find myself thinking about what I need to do to improve my rolling and class and never about what I would do if some random stranger would attack me, which I used to do before.

[JamesC]

I think a majority of people who train these days(in TMA) do it because of a primal human inclination toward movement. We're creatures who like to move. We're built to move.

If you want to learn real "self defense" you take a concealed handgun course and buy yourself a Glock. Yeah, i'm totally plugging Glock. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think a majority of people who train these days(in TMA) do it because of a primal human inclination toward movement. We're creatures who like to move. We're built to move.

If you want to learn real "self defense" you take a concealed handgun course and buy yourself a Glock. Yeah, i'm totally plugging Glock. :p

I've had the pleasure to shoot a glock and a sig and an Hk and I must say I like the glock feel.
But I do like the Sig's stopping power and the HK is awesome but I find it too big for me.

[YouKnowWho]

Talking from a 100% DEFENSIVE perspective, why are you fighting to win? ...

I don't like the defense fighting for the following reasons:

1. If I let my opponent to make his 1st move, I may fall into his trap. There are just too many unknown factor there. I like to make the 1st attack and lead the fight into an area that I may be more familiar than my oponent does. That will be my advantage.

2. Old Chinese saying said, "If you are kind to your enemy, you are cruel to yourself". If you can put your opponent in 100% defense mode, there will be less chance that your opponent has luxury to hit you.

3. Old Chinese saying also said, "When you fight, you act like tiger. When you are not, you act like a sheep". We all want to develop "tiger" spirit and eat our opponent alive. But we only apply that spirit in combat and not in our daily life.

[k gledhill]

I think a majority of people who train these days(in TMA) do it because of a primal human inclination toward movement. We're creatures who like to move. We're built to move.

If you want to learn real "self defense" you take a concealed handgun course and buy yourself a Glock. Yeah, i'm totally plugging Glock. :p

CZ 75 ; ) combat weapon. if you accidentally hit the mag release it doesnt drop out , you have to pull it out. 17 rounds 16 in the clip. I used it in many competitions.

[wolf3001]

It's been about a year or more now but my last girlfriend asked me to go with her to get a friend. I went but didn't know what was going on. Her and her common law husband were arguing. I soon found out he is an abusive A hole. We got there and she was trying to leave but he wouldn't let her take one of the kids. My ex grabbed one kid and went out to my car. While she was out he had backed his wife into another room and she was unable to leave. They didn't want me to get the cops involved and I really didn't either so I didn't. He was saying that if she wanted to go she could but she couldn't take the kid she was holding. He repeatedly said he would hit her if she tried to leave. I am told he was high on something but I really don't know. I opened my mouth and said if he hit her I would get involved. He flew into a rage and before I could do anything he rushed me throwing me through the screen door of his house. I rolled backwards off their porch came up as he walked out of his house and then we got into it. It wasn't the most impressive fight I have ever been in but I walked away with everyone and a few bruises. I was told later that I fractured his cheek and a rib or something. His wife went back to him the next day. The cops told me he has beat her before.

I try to stay out of fights as much as I can I try to walk away. But it's not always possible to. Thats the first fight I have been in for a long time. I really don't know that calling the cops would have been that good of a deal but I told my ex next time this happens were going to. You can't always walk away or run from a situation if that were the case I would take up track instead of martial arts. I do Kung Fu and I have a CCW permit to protect myself.

[jesper]

I have to say I'm with LoneTiger on this one. If you are fighting it means your self defense failed. Why do you even think about things like ? IRL most people don't have to worry about having their head smashed in. If you do it could be because you are hanging out with a bunch of idiots. Find better places to spend your time.

I train BJJ because I like to get primitive and test myself. But I am doing it in a constructive fashion.

When I trained WC the one school I went to kind of promoted the same type of nonsense you are spouting. Since switching to BJJ I find myself thinking about what I need to do to improve my rolling and class and never about what I would do if some random stranger would attack me, which I used to do before.

were talking about fighting here. that either means someone has attacked you or your in a volunteer fighting match. your really going to picture that other guy as your mother then? really ?

oh and as for me hanging out the wrong places. I dont usually, but life not always fair and rosy

[wolf3001]

were talking about fighting here. that either means someone has attacked you or your in a volunteer fighting match. your really going to picture that other guy as your mother then? really ?

oh and as for me hanging out the wrong places. I dont usually, but life not always fair and rosy

I don't drink and a few friends got me to go with them to a local club. It wasn't anything I care to do again really it's crowded, noisy and there are lots of College guys around. I could see being in a crowded place with people drinking and unable to talk without yelling getting into a fight real quick. **** happens I normally avoid such things. One of my Sifus was at a concert awhile back and some guy came pushing through the crowd. He is in his late 40s I believe and only about 5' 5" maybe. This guy ran in to him and kept trying to push him out of the way. LT got the guy by the elbow and told him to cool it. From what I hear the guy was a bit shocked that he was able to take control of him so easily. In cases like this you may have to use your skills.

The first step in self defense is to know your surroundings be observant so you can avoid unnecessary situations. I work for the local telegram the most dangerous time for me is if I am doing a down route on a Saturday morning. I am usually out at 3am or so and there are some odd people out. If I see someone I will usually cross the street if I feel it's dangerous. The next would be to try and talk your way out of a situation. If your attacked you probably wont get the chance. For me self defense is either neutralizing a threat after the attack was made or defending yourself long enough to get away without serious injury. In some cases you may not be fighting for yourself. I came around to a street one day and a bunch of kids were arguing it was 4 on 1. A few had sticks and I think a girl had a kitchen knife and the 4 were yelling at some other guy. I was getting ready to call the cops and thinking about what I would do if they went after him but they all walked away and the cops came shortly after.

I need to train Dishu Quan I am mainly attacked by dogs.