Ip Man and what he said

[sanjuro_ronin]

This has been thrown around a bit, what Ip Man really said, who he really trained, who he give the "real stuff" too, and blah, blah, blah...
I really don't pay attention to it or follow it that much, but I do have a question:

Ip Chun is Ip Man's son right? his heir right?
Doen't he have the "real" Ip Man WC? and doesn't he KNOW who his father trained and what his father said and so forth?
Wouldn't HE be the one with the "real history" ??


Just curious.

[LoneTiger108]

If you have the coin my friend ;) I'm sure Ip Chun will tell you anything you want to know!

And in fact, it is through his work with Foshan City council that the Ip Man Tong was created, and whatever the 'true history' is, it will be evident right there.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1093670]This has been thrown around a bit, what Ip Man really said, who he really trained, who he give the "real stuff" too, and blah, blah, blah...
I really don't pay attention to it or follow it that much, but I do have a question:

Ip Chun is Ip Man's son right? his heir right?
Doen't he have the "real" Ip Man WC? and doesn't he KNOW who his father trained and what his father said and so forth?
Wouldn't HE be the one with the "real history" ?---------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bits and parts of it -yes.The whole picture? No. He and his brother Ip Ching can say and have said that their father trained with Leung Bik...and other things their father or did when they were young. But Ip Man left them in Foshan in 1950 and took his daughter who was to be married in Macau.
Ip Chun and Ip Ching were not around their father from 1950 to 1962. In 1962 Ip man was winding down his teaching.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1093670]This has been thrown around a bit, what Ip Man really said, who he really trained, who he give the "real stuff" too, and blah, blah, blah...
I really don't pay attention to it or follow it that much, but I do have a question:

Ip Chun is Ip Man's son right? his heir right?
Doen't he have the "real" Ip Man WC? and doesn't he KNOW who his father trained and what his father said and so forth?
Wouldn't HE be the one with the "real history" ?---------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bits and parts of it -yes.The whole picture? No. He and his brother Ip Ching can say and have said that their father trained with Leung Bik...and other things their father or did when they were young. But Ip Man left them in Foshan in 1950 and took his daughter who was to be married in Macau.
Ip Chun and Ip Ching were not around their father from 1950 to 1962. In 1962 Ip man was winding down his teaching.

joy chaudhuri

AH, see, I didn't know that.
Very interesting.

[LoneTiger108]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1093686]

AH, see, I didn't know that.
Very interesting.

I had heard similar, mainly that Ip Chun didn't start his formal learning until he was in his thirties because he was left in Foshan for over a decade. It;s actually great to have guys like Joy post here too with his facts!

Of course, you knew Ip Chun and Lee Shing were good friends right? For a while anyhow :) Ip Man asked Ip Chun to stay in touch with Lee Shing in the UK to continue his training and he often stayed in his own home when visiting for the earlier seminars here.

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1093688]

I had heard similar, mainly that Ip Chun didn't start his formal learning until he was in his thirties because he was left in Foshan for over a decade. It;s actually great to have guys like Joy post here too with his facts!

Of course, you knew Ip Chun and Lee Shing were good friends right? For a while anyhow :) Ip Man asked Ip Chun to stay in touch with Lee Shing in the UK to continue his training and he often stayed in his own home when visiting for the earlier seminars here.

Cool.
So, who did have the most time under Ip Man? it seems to have been WSL, yes?

[LoneTiger108]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1093740]

Cool.
So, who did have the most time under Ip Man? it seems to have been WSL, yes?

You are joking right? :cool: Depends on what you mean by 'time'...

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1093745]

You are joking right? :cool: Depends on what you mean by 'time'...

Honest question.

[LoneTiger108]

No. I don't believe WSL to be Ip Mans longest serving student. But I am sure others here can name more and some will insist he was...

[sanjuro_ronin]

No. I don't believe WSL to be Ip Mans longest serving student. But I am sure others here can name more and some will insist he was...

I see.
So it truly is a difficult thing to confirm many of these things then?

[Phil Redmond]

This has been thrown around a bit, what Ip Man really said, who he really trained, who he give the "real stuff" too, and blah, blah, blah...
I really don't pay attention to it or follow it that much, but I do have a question:

Ip Chun is Ip Man's son right? his heir right?
Doen't he have the "real" Ip Man WC? and doesn't he KNOW who his father trained and what his father said and so forth?
Wouldn't HE be the one with the "real history" ??


Just curious.
My students know more WC than my sons. Being blood to a Sifu doesn't guarantee that you got all the goodies. That really applies when the sons don't come on the scene until the later declining years of the Sifu and have never fought to test their art. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

My students know more WC than my sons. Being blood to a Sifu doesn't guarantee that you got all the goodies. That really applies when the sons don't come on the scene until the later declining years of the Sifu and have never fought to test their art. ;)

That makes sense.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1093740]

Cool.
So, who did have the most time under Ip Man? it seems to have been WSL, yes?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Sanjuro-

Older generation give face to others. So no other name mentioned except Ho Kam Ming.
He started after the first few students but studied with Ip Man the longest.

Most intense continuous daily private lessons every day for over 7 years and then corrections and
analysis and conversation even to IM"s last day..

Phil is correct. My good students know more wing chun than my sons do-though I lugged them around for instruction in their early years.
My dad was a top f;ight doctor and I came from an extended family of doctors- but I didn't want to do what Dad did- till later and too late to my considerable regret-I learned a lot from him later when I brought him and mom to live with me.

I don't market my sifu or sigung (or myself)- they hold their own. I just comment when I think that there is something factual about them-being overlooked or misrepresented.
All Ip Man wing chun lineages got something from Ip Man- and I respect that.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1093745]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Sanjuro-

Older generation give face to others. So no other name mentioned except Ho Kam Ming.
He started after the first few students but studied with Ip Man the longest.

Most intense continuous daily private lessons every day for over 7 years and then corrections and
analysis and conversation even to IM"s last day..

Phil is correct. My good students know more wing chun than my sons do-though I lugged them around for instruction in their early years.
My dad was a top f;ight doctor and I came from an extended family of doctors- but I didn't want to do what Dad did- till later and too late to my considerable regret-I learned a lot from him later when I brought him and mom to live with me.

I don't market my sifu or sigung (or myself)- they hold their own. I just comment when I think that there is something factual about them-being overlooked or misrepresented.
All Ip Man wing chun lineages got something from Ip Man- and I respect that.

joy chaudhuri

Well said Joy, as always.

[Phil Redmond]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1093745]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Sanjuro-

Older generation give face to others. So no other name mentioned except Ho Kam Ming.
He started after the first few students but studied with Ip Man the longest.

Most intense continuous daily private lessons every day for over 7 years and then corrections and
analysis and conversation even to IM"s last day..

joy chaudhuri
I PMd Sanjuro that it was Ho Kam Ming. There's nothing like the truth eh? :)

[Eric_H]

Wasn't Ho Kam Ming the same one who ticked off Yip Man and was cut off from further training? If so, his "length of service" stopped at that point.

The old school kung fu guys didn't care about passing it down from father to son unless it was a family tradition. It was more about finding someone with the ability and integrity to keep the art alive.

[Wayfaring]

What about details of the other top Ip Man lineage guys today? What are the timelines of their training?

People like WSL, Moy Yat, William Cheung, Leung Ting, Bruce Lee and any others I'm forgetting?

[GlennR]

What about details of the other top Ip Man lineage guys today? What are the timelines of their training?

People like WSL, Moy Yat, William Cheung, Leung Ting, Bruce Lee and any others I'm forgetting?



I would think TST would be his earliest prominent student alive today

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Eric_H;1094086]Wasn't Ho Kam Ming the same one who ticked off Yip Man and was cut off from further training? If so, his "length of service" stopped at that point.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think that you have any idea what you are talking about in this context.
Ho Kam ming finished with bot jam do training with Ip Man- the hallmark of close training with Ip man.

Sanjuro you have opened a strange can.

joy chaudhuri

[SavvySavage]

This has been thrown around a bit, what Ip Man really said, who he really trained, who he give the "real stuff" too, and blah, blah, blah...
I really don't pay attention to it or follow it that much, but I do have a question:

Ip Chun is Ip Man's son right? his heir right?
Doen't he have the "real" Ip Man WC? and doesn't he KNOW who his father trained and what his father said and so forth?
Wouldn't HE be the one with the "real history" ??


Just curious.

Not true. I have been my father's son my whole life...and I barely know him. I play poker with a lot of guys who could be considered gambling addicts...and I bet their kids have no idea how much they win or lose.

Only a man knows his true heart. A woman might know it too but only for a short time.

[Eric_H]

I don't think that you have any idea what you are talking about in this context.
Ho Kam ming finished with bot jam do training with Ip Man- the hallmark of close training with Ip man.

Sanjuro you have opened a strange can.

joy chaudhuri

That's funny as HKM never got the wooden dummy from YM.

Then again maybe YM thought he didn't need it.

[Vajramusti]

I would think TST would be his earliest prominent student alive today
Yes- most likely. I think that Lok Yiu is probably still alive.(?)William Cheung is also alive.William Cheung moved to Australia and lived there till not too long ago..when he came to the US. Phil would know more.

BL learned mostly from WSL.David petersen would know much about WSL.

There are others with some brief time with Ip Man who are alive from the 50 to 62 period -the most active period of Ip man's teaching.The list of first generation Ip Man HK students is fast fading. HKM is in his late eighties.
It's a land mine- who trained how much when and for how long.

Best to concentrate on building on the inheritance than raking the dried history leaves.

joy chaudhuri

[bawang]

sounds like outsiders want to usurp his sons positions

[GlennR]

Yes- most likely. I think that Lok Yiu is probably still alive.(?)William Cheung is also alive.William Cheung moved to Australia and lived there till not too long ago..when he came to the US. Phil would know more.

BL learned mostly from WSL.David petersen would know much about WSL.

There are others with some brief time with Ip Man who are alive from the 50 to 62 period -the most active period of Ip man's teaching.The list of first generation Ip Man HK students is fast fading. HKM is in his late eighties.
It's a land mine- who trained how much when and for how long.

Best to concentrate on building on the inheritance than raking the dried history leaves.

joy chaudhuri



Actually Lok Yiu passed on some years ago i believe.
Over here in Oz we have a couple of YM students but not near the prominence of the guys above.

TST has just turned 80 i also

GlennR

[Vajramusti]

That's funny as HKM never got the wooden dummy from YM.

Then again maybe YM thought he didn't need it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Funny? I don't think so. And- erroneous too. Koo Sang-Ip man's dummy maker was a contemporary
of Ho Kam Ming.

joy chaudhuri

[ntc]

Adding to what Joy said, why would Sifu Ho want Yip Man's dummy? He already had his in Macao, and it was no different from the one Yip Man had. And I don't know where you heard about Sifu Ho having a fall-out with Yip Man. That could not have been further from the truth. On the contrary, Sifu Ho and Yip Man had a very close relationship and he was with Yip Manall the way till he died. While Yip Man was incapacitated during his final days, Sifu Ho's students led by Lui Ming Fai along with some from WSL's school help to take care of Yip Man's students in his absence. Sifu Ho's relationship with Yip Man was like father/son, and he was very sad when Yip Man passed away.

[Phil Redmond]

That's funny as HKM never got the wooden dummy from YM.

Then again maybe YM thought he didn't need it.
Do you mean YM's dummy or the form? :confused:

[Vajramusti]

To add to NTC's statement. Ho Kam Ming visited with Ip Man the day that IM died-quite an emotional conversation. Then HKM went back to macao . Soon afterwards Ip Ching called HKM to inform him that Ip Man had passed away.

Those are sad events.

There are facts and then jockeying about facts and attention seeking and drama. The latter things also took place after IM's death.

joy chaudhuri

[hunt1]

In the interest of correct history only.

TST is the longest serving Yip Man student still alive having started with Yip in 1951. He also lived with Yip Man longer than anyone else.

Eric you may be thinking of Leung Sheung . It is he and to a lesser extent Lok Yui that had a big fall out with Yip Man among Yip's better known students at any rate.

While he was alive Yip Bo Ching was considered Yips closest protege. He died in his mid 30's a few years before Yip Man died. Even Yip Ching will tell stories about YBC being Yips Man's closest student.

[CFT]

What I have read here and there ...

The most mentioned early generation of HK students are: Leung Seung, Lok Yiu, WSL and TST.

We've already heard about HKM. Another name is Jiu Wan - apparently YM would visit his school every day for a chat.

[ntc]

Definitely.... Jiu Wan was another Yip Man student who did train quite a bit under him. My brother-in-law is a Jiu Wan student and he tells me some good stories back of those days.

[ntc]

Chow Jee Chuen is another of Yip Man's long time students who was also highly regarded by his kung fu brothers.

[Vajramusti]

Chow Jee Chuen is another of Yip Man's long time students who was also highly regarded by his kung fu brothers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donald Mak is one of Chow Tze Chuen's top students and teaches in HK.

joy chaudhuri

[Eric_H]

I had meant the dummy form, not the actual dummy itself that GM Yip practiced on.

Most everything I've seen on Augustine Fong is that he had to put together his own dummy form because his Sifu didn't have one to teach him. Whatever you think of his form is your own personal opinion, but it begs the question as to why it was left out.

Either Augustine Fong didn't get it from Ho Kam Ming or Ho Kam Ming didn't have it to give. Just trying to figure out which it was.

[ntc]

Not sure what you mean or where you got your information. I can attest that the dummy form that I learn from Sifu Ho is pretty much the same as the form that Augustine practices. There is a section or so that appears to be perhaps something that he added on his own, but then again nothing really wrong with that. I know that Sifu Ho learned his dummy form from Yip Man because over time I can recall him telling us stories of how it was taught to him by Yip Man, and how expensive it ended up costing him to learn the form.

[Vajramusti]

NTC has it correct.

joy chaudhuri

[Graham H]

I can recall him telling us stories of how it was taught to him by Yip Man, and how expensive it ended up costing him to learn the form.

IP Man probably didn't like him then!! ;) :D

GH

[Paul T England]

Great discussion as long as everyone is mature.

Students of their sifu will have one side of the story and those who have been around a long time should be wise to the kung fu world and people in general.

You will find many students who took privates or kept quiet who are very good. A teacher will always have a wide range of students as far as ability and understanding goes.

Length of time at a teachers side does not equal skill and neither does blood relation. Each person has to stand on their own two feet.

Also doing the form in the same way ip man did does not mena much. People change things as they feel fit and if you have been around long enough I am sure you ahve experienced changes in your teachers teaching methods or focus on tehcnique.

I have repsect fro all my seniors but to be honest, i don't want to be like most of them. That being said, what is publicly displayed by teachers is only the tip of the iceberg and getting the real knowledge off a teacher takes hours of quesitoning and study. The forms are just the outer shell.

Maybe Ho Kam Ming changed his dummy form! most of ip man's students made changes due to experiences and understanding.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[bennyvt]

from what I have been told of people that continued training
In fut san his two main guys were gwok fu being senior and lun gai.
leung sheung was first in hong kong. Lok yiu and leung sheung were the first to learn the weapons with each being taught one, most people assume this was due to him being old by this point so wanted to make sure he had two that knew the last parts well. wsl started but I cant remember if TST had started already.
Heard some stories of yip bo ching but dont really know much.
I know TST is classed as the "gate keeper" of the Yip man style in hong kong. From stories Lok yiu and WSL had too bad reputations to be the offical heir or grand master. I have got this story from many different lineages but Its only what people tell you.
Hence all the problems when people started to claim to be the grandmaster in the the nineties etc.
I was told yip chun learnt most of his VT from leung ting.
Yip ching deffinatley learnt to biu jee with yip but I have no info as to how far he got.
Yip man would only teach his sons when they had proven they would train properly with stories of both of them being sent to yips students to learn first.

[LoneTiger108]

What I have read here and there ...

The most mentioned early generation of HK students are: Leung Seung, Lok Yiu, WSL and TST.

We've already heard about HKM. Another name is Jiu Wan - apparently YM would visit his school every day for a chat.

I think bringing up stories about fall-outs and diagreements will forever draw us further away from eachother. That is family business that has either already been dealt with or totally non-existent and caused by silly rumours :(

Also, I still find it so interesting that NOBODY ever mentions Lee Shing (maybe because you all know I will!!) and he was very close to Ip Man, Jiu Wan, Lok Yiu AND Ho Kam Ming.

It would be interesting to learn more from the elder generaion that is still alive, but I don't know if they're all that accessible.

[Graham H]

Who's Lee Shing when he's at home??

[LoneTiger108]

Now now Graham ;) Don't go starting trouble now :D It's a pretty good thread so far...

BUT I would actually prefer to know more about what Ip Man WROTE DOWN!

I've seen some scribbles in the Ip Man Tong, but it would be really cool for his family to releare more of his personal training notes and posssibly even the curriculum that he passed his trainees (wishful thinking I know!)

[CFT]

Also, I still find it so interesting that NOBODY ever mentions Lee Shing (maybe because you all know I will!!) and he was very close to Ip Man, Jiu Wan, Lok Yiu AND Ho Kam Ming.Yep, you don't disappoint us Spencer. Also not much literature or stories, or people promoting him other than you. Don't think there is anyone other than you from LS family posting?


BUT I would actually prefer to know more about what Ip Man WROTE DOWN!I'd have to dig my copy of 'The Prodigal Son' out, but I'm pretty sure Guy Lai (in the dvd extras) said that Jiu Wan had a book (kuen po) from Yip Man. Or maybe it was written by JW. I forget which.

[LoneTiger108]

Yep, you don't disappoint us Spencer. Also not much literature or stories, or people promoting him other than you. Don't think there is anyone other than you from LS family posting?

You are correct Chee. I am trying to help the family, but I don't have a school or anything as you know. My Sifu still promotes himself, as does Austin Goh and Joe Lee. I'm just a Journeyman looking to exchange with like minded folks :)


I'd have to dig my copy of 'The Prodigal Son' out, but I'm pretty sure Guy Lai (in the dvd extras) said that Jiu Wan had a book (kuen po) from Yip Man. Or maybe it was written by JW. I forget which.

It would make sense if Jiu Wan had something. Exactly what may forever remain a mystery. No matter how much I try to promote this sort of exchange I get nothing more than whats posted online already, and believe me when I say that isn't what I'm talking about...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Be nice guys and stay on topic please.

[LoneTiger108]

Be nice guys and stay on topic please.

Okay Sanjuro, let's try...

Apparently, not only did Ip Man defy the Japanese Empire, what he said was "Yong Chun, Yi Wen!" :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AJxXQ7xojE

And that's the truth! ;) :eek:

[Graham H]

Now now Graham ;) Don't go starting trouble now :D

Oh! why?? :D

[Wayfaring]

Also, I still find it so interesting that NOBODY ever mentions Lee Shing (maybe because you all know I will!!) and he was very close to Ip Man, Jiu Wan, Lok Yiu AND Ho Kam Ming.

Question for you. Why is Lee Shing listed under the Gulao (Koo Loo) branch of Wing Chun from Leung Jan as opposed to Ip Man's lineage?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branches_of_Wing_Chun

Do you guys do Pien San (side body)?

[anerlich]

Also, I still find it so interesting that NOBODY ever mentions Lee Shing

Why so interesting? You're the only one posting that has had anything to do with him, so what were you expecting?

[ntc]

Should not be too surprising that not too many people write about Lee Shing. Or, for that matter, not too many people know of or heard of a LOT of the other Yip Man students, the majority of whom if not deceased probably live in Hong Kong and most likely not involved with WC at all, or only involved privately, etc. The typical ones people hear of on these forums, WSL, Leung Ting, Lok Yiu, Moy Yat, etc., have roots here in the US. They also have international branches outside of Hong Kong and worldwide (just look at Leung Ting's organization in the US and Europe as an example). And the more students outside of Hong Kong/China that are part of an organization, the likelier that organization and its chief instructor (WSL, etc.) will be heard of because of postings on forums like this one. Not too many Chinese in Hong Kong/mainland China will come and post on these forums. Which is the primary reason why you mainly see postings from students under those of Yip Man's students who have overseas schools or organizations. And hence the same names appear over and over again.

[Vajramusti]

Alan Lamb was probably the first British wing chun sifu. He knew Lee Shing and learned from him. He worked out more with Lee Shing's protege Joseph Cheng ( they(Cheng etc) stood somewhat side bodied) What really happened to Cheng?- we just have stories.I have somewhere Cheng's book and the dummy pics.
Alan also learned from Paul Lam- a student of Leung Sheung.
The Lee shing people and Paul Lam were NOT close.
Alan went to Hong Kong to learn from Koo sang.
Kernspecht had contacted Alan early to learn wing chun but Alan was headed for the US.
Alan has had some health problems and a major accident but he still teaches as much as he can.
His warrior spirit sees him through.

joy chaudhuri

[Liddel]

Ip Chun is Ip Man's son right? his heir right?
Doen't he have the "real" Ip Man WC? and doesn't he KNOW who his father trained and what his father said and so forth?
Wouldn't HE be the one with the "real history" ??

Just curious.

My Father is an engineer and mechanic and has been for 50 years, i could talk all day about cars etc and hold my own. Ask me to fix something other than the simple stuff and i have NO CLUE what to do. So just because you are closely related to an expert in anything doesn't mean you are the rightful heir, right ?

My Sifu recalls a time when Ip Man said in front of a bunch of students that Ip Chun can call himself Ip Man's son, but not a student of wing Chun.

Now this may have changed over the following years so take it for what its worth. My Sifu only told me this when i asked years ago and hasn't mentioned anything since, its not meant to bad mouth anyone but it is an occasion he witnessed and told me about when asked. Ip Chun and Sifu knew each other well so he has right to an opinion.

He did also say it was well know at the time that Ip Ching had the skills and put in the work where as Ip Chun started at such a late age and was said to not be as dedicated to training.
There was and still is a difference between being intentionally taught and just being privy to everything wing chun because you were around it all the time.

Im also told that the third son (to Ip's Mistress) Ip Wah was actually beter than Ip Chun. No one ever talks about it, ive never heard this from anyone other than my Sifu so ive never mentoined it either. :o

FWIW i have seen some Ip Chun students out there, im not a fan of the details of thier style because its different from mine BUT i have seen some skilled guys, so i rate them regardless of which lineage they are.

No Disrespect intended.

[Vajramusti]

Im also told that the third son (to Ip's Mistress) Ip Wah was actually beter than Ip Chun. No one ever talks about it, ive never heard this from anyone other than my Sifu so ive never mentoined it either(Liddell)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Much better but was not close to his father.He went on to Dragon style.A sad story and part of Ip man's private life.

joy chaudhuri

[aelward]

My Sifu has said Ip Wah has good Wing Chun.

[Graham H]

My Sifu has said Ip Wah has good Wing Chun.

Unlike Ip Chun who is diabolical!!!

[LSWCTN1]

Alan Lamb was probably the first British wing chun sifu. He knew Lee Shing and learned from him. He worked out more with Lee Shing's protege Joseph Cheng ( they(Cheng etc) stood somewhat side bodied) What really happened to Cheng?- we just have stories.I have somewhere Cheng's book and the dummy pics.
Alan also learned from Paul Lam- a student of Leung Sheung.
The Lee shing people and Paul Lam were NOT close.
Alan went to Hong Kong to learn from Koo sang.
Kernspecht had contacted Alan early to learn wing chun but Alan was headed for the US.
Alan has had some health problems and a major accident but he still teaches as much as he can.
His warrior spirit sees him through.

joy chaudhuri

Alan Lamb was the first westerner to be VTAA certified. AFAIK John Darwen (of the same lineage) was the first British man to teach wck. Possible the first westerner outside of Britain too. Neither actually studied under Lee Shing. Maybe the odd correction or class watched by LS but no actual study.

The stories of Joseph Cheng stem from his publisher I believe. Certainly up until a couple of years ago he was actually alive and well, and teaching on the mainland.

Kernshpect went on to learn from Simon Lau, which explains a lot of his mentality. lets leave that one there though.

By all accounts Paul Lam had some great wck and taught alongside Greco Wong for a while. i dont think the problem was with the majority of LS people - just Joseph Cheng.

In LSWC there is pien san wck too. The Fung Sang connection was only recently added (in the last few years) prior to that LS's pien san instructor was always listed as a Fung name that nobody had previously heard of.

I am of the opinion that Lee Sing also studied alongside Jui Wan and Pan Nam under Jui Wans uncle too.

This was my original lineage and any information I have mentioned here has been mentioned in passing between guys that have been around since '71 or has been relayed through various other family members

[wingchunIan]

Unlike Ip Chun who is diabolical!!!

when you are someone's equal then you can judge. Ip Chun and his students are well respected within the HK wing chun community and have answered challenge matches on behalf of the VTAA on numerous occassions. Whatever the history, those seniors who trained under Yip Man have for the most part chosen to maintain a dignified position accepting each other for you they are and the remarkable skills they each have. What a pity that some of their students, students students, etc (maybe I didn't cover enough generations for you graham?) don't have the same level of dignity and respect. There is more to kung fu than physical actions how you behave reflects on you, your kung fu and on your sifu.

[Vajramusti]

WingchunIan--re your post-

well said.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

Question for you. Why is Lee Shing listed under the Gulao (Koo Loo) branch of Wing Chun from Leung Jan as opposed to Ip Man's lineage?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branches_of_Wing_Chun

Do you guys do Pien San (side body)?

This is a bit of an oldie, but I will answer seeing that you asked! ;)

From what I have been told, the information was gathered from Sifu Joseph Lee for inclusion in Robert Chus book and that basic information has done the rounds. With Sifu Austin Goh and his top student Jurg Ziegler in Europe, the pien san approach to training was propogated in the nineties. This is not something I support but I can understand the marketing aspect of 'showing something new'. We tend to say that LSWC is Ip Man WCK with a Fung family flavour!

http://www.flystudio.co.uk/media/gallery/photos/photos_0.html

FWIW Read my signature for the answer about pien san wing chun...

[lance]

This has been thrown around a bit, what Ip Man really said, who he really trained, who he give the "real stuff" too, and blah, blah, blah...
I really don't pay attention to it or follow it that much, but I do have a question:

Ip Chun is Ip Man's son right? his heir right?
Doen't he have the "real" Ip Man WC? and doesn't he KNOW who his father trained and what his father said and so forth?
Wouldn't HE be the one with the "real history" ??


Just curious.

Actually Ip Man had 2 - sons Ip Chun and Ip ching and yes , his 2 - sons would know his father ' s wing chun . Where did you get these information from ? Was it from a book ? Just curious , that ' s all . Well . someone is joking with you .

[bennyvt]

lance why dont you read the rest of the posts;)

[ntc]

WingChunIan:

Good post.... and right on the money.

[Phil Redmond]

Actually Ip Man had 2 - sons Ip Chun and Ip ching and yes , his 2 - sons would know his father ' s wing chun . Where did you get these information from ? Was it from a book ? Just curious , that ' s all . Well . someone is joking with you .
I guess you missed the post about Yip (Ip) Wah and the posts about being someone's son doesn't mean they learned their father's skills. ;)

[lance]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1093670]This has been thrown around a bit, what Ip Man really said, who he really trained, who he give the "real stuff" too, and blah, blah, blah...
I really don't pay attention to it or follow it that much, but I do have a question:

Ip Chun is Ip Man's son right? his heir right?
Doen't he have the "real" Ip Man WC? and doesn't he KNOW who his father trained and what his father said and so forth?
Wouldn't HE be the one with the "real history" ?---------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bits and parts of it -yes.The whole picture? No. He and his brother Ip Ching can say and have said that their father trained with Leung Bik...and other things their father or did when they were young. But Ip Man left them in Foshan in 1950 and took his daughter who was to be married in Macau.
Ip Chun and Ip Ching were not around their father from 1950 to 1962. In 1962 Ip man was winding down his teaching.

joy chaudhuri

joy chaudhuri , so you mean to tell me that GM Ip Man also had a daughter besides his 2 sons Ip Chun and Ip Ching ? I did ' nt know that , welll they left that part out in the first Ip Man movie , how interesting . First all these these things about Ip Man and whoi he trained with and who has his real Ip Man WC and now he also has a daughter . So if Ip Man left his 2 - sons in Foshan in 1950 and took his daughter to be married in macau . Then Ip Man probably taught his 2 - sons just enough wing chun skills needed to survive in the streets . Or maybe he taught Ip Chun some wing chun skills that were different from his brother Ip Ching . And they had to learn from eachother . Well , this is just my own opinion .
Everybody has their own version of Ip Man ' s story on wing chun , anyway . But ,
thanks for the information .

[Phil Redmond]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1093686]

joy chaudhuri , so you mean to tell me that GM Ip Man also had a daughter besides his 2 sons Ip Chun and Ip Ching ? I did ' nt know that , welll they left that part out in the first Ip Man movie , how interesting .. . . ..
Movies are just movies. They are made to entertain an audience. Documentaries are a better source if you're looking for facts.

[Vajramusti]

Phil- correct. That was Lance not me who asked the question. Following truncated posts in threads can be confusing.
I don't depend on movies...

joy

[lance]

In the interest of correct history only.

TST is the longest serving Yip Man student still alive having started with Yip in 1951. He also lived with Yip Man longer than anyone else.

Eric you may be thinking of Leung Sheung . It is he and to a lesser extent Lok Yui that had a big fall out with Yip Man among Yip's better known students at any rate.

While he was alive Yip Bo Ching was considered Yips closest protege. He died in his mid 30's a few years before Yip Man died. Even Yip Ching will tell stories about YBC being Yips Man's closest student.

Hunter , is Yip Bo Ching ( Yip Ching ) ? So what age did Yip Ching get training from his father Yip Man ? And is Yip Bo Ching another WC Sifu ? I want to know . These people all said that negative stuff about my thread so I want to know the true facts .
That ' s why I ' m asking you . How did Yip Bo Ching died was he sick ?

[Runlikehell]

Hunter , is Yip Bo Ching ( Yip Ching ) ? So what age did Yip Ching get training from his father Yip Man ? And is Yip Bo Ching another WC Sifu ? I want to know . These people all said that negative stuff about my thread so I want to know the true facts .
That ' s why I ' m asking you . How did Yip Bo Ching died was he sick ?

Yip Bo Ching and Yip Ching are separate people. Yip Bo Ching contracted what was believed to be hepatitis, and passed away at an early age. A shame, considering he was said to be among Yip Man's top students.

Yip Ching was said to have started training under his father at the age of 11 or 12, and was said to have practiced his forms every night up until the day he left to join his father in Hong Kong (sometime in 1962).

[lance]

Be nice guys and stay on topic please.

Sanjuro ronin , well there it is your wing chun facts , these people told me that I
don ' t know what I ' m talking about , on my thread post reply to your topic posts , so I ' m shutting my mouth . But you ' ll find your wing chun answers in these threads . Just to get answers on something , you have to fight and argue or debate .
But enjoy yourselves .

If you like wing chun alot , then better you go and learn from a sifu who trained under GM Ip Man , and just practice . Up to you .

[hunt1]

Lance ,

Yip Bo Ching was not Yip Mans son. Different person than Yip Ching. He died about 34 years of age from hepatitis. He taught a very small number of people no more than 6 according to a friend and student of his I met about 10 years ago.

Yip Man told him teaching would help him get a better understanding of wing chun so he taught some friends of his. He did not charge. He was very wealthy as were most of his friends.

Yip Bo Ching was a very early student of Yip Man. Started in 1952. He was the first to learn the dummy and the weapons.

Yip Ching started learning in 1962 after arriving in Hong Kong. He trained along side Moy Yat.

[aelward]

Lance ,

Yip Bo Ching was not Yip Mans son. Different person than Yip Ching. He died about 34 years of age from hepatitis. He taught a very small number of people no more than 6 according to a friend and student of his I met about 10 years ago.

Yip Man told him teaching would help him get a better understanding of wing chun so he taught some friends of his. He did not charge. He was very wealthy as were most of his friends.

Yip Bo Ching was a very early student of Yip Man. Started in 1952. He was the first to learn the dummy and the weapons.

Yip Ching started learning in 1962 after arriving in Hong Kong. He trained along side Moy Yat.

Did Yip Bo Ching start that late? I've always heard he was the last one to take up Wong Shun-Leung's challenge, which was around 1954?

Yip Bo Ching apparently left copious notes, though I forgot who ended up with them.

[hunt1]

aelward, From what i was told Yip Bo Ching had been with Yip Man for about 1 year when he met WSL. This is what I was told but it doesn't mean its right. People tend misremember dates as they get older. I think TST or Lo Man Kam could confirm.

From what I have been told his notes were voluminous . His friends were very surprised when they went to help clean up his things after his death. They apparently contained many things that surprised them.

It is to bad his notes have never been published as they could clear up many stories.

[aelward]

From what I have been told his notes were voluminous . His friends were very surprised when they went to help clean up his things after his death. They apparently contained many things that surprised them.

It is to bad his notes have never been published as they could clear up many stories.

Is your source John DiVirgilio? He told me that Yip Bo Ching's sword set was the same as Wong Shun-Leung's set.

And it's been a while since I've seen Duncan Leung's sword set, but I remember it looking the same.

[hunt1]

aelward, I know John and we have talked for a few minutes about Yip Bo Ching but he is not my source.

I met a friend/student of Yip Bo Chings through a business associate over a decade ago while importing some items from Hong Kong. He taught me YBC's sword set and a few other things.

From what I have seen it had some small differences from the WSL 12 section set I have seen but that could be due the the performers. All in all the same stuff which is interesting since YBC learned it in the 50's and WSL didn't learn this set until after YBC died. Interesting because it would mean Yip Man had a core set he did and could teach over the years. Contrary to what many imply about Yip Mans different set's and his forgetting and changing things etc.

[hunt1]

aelward, I know John and we have talked for a few minutes about Yip Bo Ching but he is not my source.

I met a friend/student of Yip Bo Chings through a business associate over a decade ago while importing some items from Hong Kong. He taught me YBC's sword set and a few other things.

From what I have seen it had some small differences from the WSL 12 section set I have seen but that could be due the the performers. All in all the same stuff which is interesting since YBC learned it in the 50's and WSL didn't learn this set until after YBC died. Interesting because it would mean Yip Man had a core set he did and could teach over the years. Contrary to what many imply about Yip Mans different set's and his forgetting and changing things etc.

Have never seen Duncan's set so can't comment.

[Graham H]

Contrary to what many imply about Yip Mans different set's and his forgetting and changing things etc.
.

....an excuse that most would use knowing that they were not taught too much. It's easy to make things up and say they came direct from Yip Man when Yip Man was no longer around to say any different.

I believe 100% that Yip Man had one core system of Ving Tsun that he only taught to a very select few people. WSL and Yip Bo Ching being two of them. This was because they were athletic, willing fighters and intelligent people. Friends as well as students. The others (and there are many) maybe had attributes that didn't allow the knowledge to be cultivated and were probably not in Yip Man's favour. Prior to the Hong Kong days Ving Tsun was very cloak and dagger. Would it not be correct to assume that Yip Man was also cloak and dagger about his teachings and who he taught it to?? Maybe it was even the same with WSL which would explain all these differences in a system that has culminated in using the word "interpretation" to explain differences.

Yip Man would not have chosen to teach people different methods. He would have been selective on what he taught to who and when. If Yip Man had this attitude then maybe his closet students carried it on.

The fact is that with Ving Tsun you can teach all but not all will grasp it. It was the same in my Teacher's Teacher's school. It is the same in my Teacher's school and it is the same in my school.

Quality Ving Tsun is dependent on the intelligence of the person Teaching and practicing it. As WSL said....."When an intelligent person speaks he will only be understood by another intelligent person. If a foolish person speaks then he will only be understood by other fools!"

........the human factor!!!

GH

[Graham H]

First off, you have a pretty significant misunderstanding of how traditional Chinese martial arts were taught.

Second, WSL himself is quoted talking about how Ip Man forgot quite a few things intentionally in order to be a more natural fighter. He never planned on teaching.

Third, WSL himself also changed his own sets to suit his own needs as he progressed.

Fourth, a good teacher will always evolve and it is the responsibility of the students to evolve with what they learned. The only thing unintelligible here is to think otherwise.

About the only thing you said that is of any value is that it is up to the student and how they interpret it.

Oh I'm sorry! I forgot you have become a world authority on Ving Tsun. :D:D:D. Where did you copy that from??? Wikipdedia???

Will you be my Teacher?? ;)

GH

PS Funny how you can comment on my lineage when you don't even seem to have a grasp on your own! Chin up mate! It aint all bad! :rolleyes:

PPS. Can you explain how you forget things intentionally?? He he he!

[Graham H]

No buddy, just love WC and a lot more open minded than you think. Just not a big fan of bigotry...

Oh yeah and that quote came from David Peterson's book on WSL....believe it or not, I own it... thought you probably read it too, my bad...

Well maybe you worded it wrong. I have read David's books. David is a friend of mine and he's a great guy.

This forum produces some great comedy. It would be better for people to forget the past. Who cares where Ving Tsun came from? Who cares about the past? Once you (gen) get engaged in what happened in the past then you are speculating at best. We simply cannot be sure.

Everybody is different and we find beauty in different things. One persons like will be another persons dislike. If we were all clones the world would be a boring place. Let's just enjoy the banter that politics bring and keep training hard and improving!! ;)

Even the title of this thread is nonsense! :)

GH

[couch]

PPS. Can you explain how you forget things intentionally?? He he he!

You forget things intentionally by evolving the thought processes and therefore the actions themselves. ie: letting go

Some martial artists use their martial art to cross the river - then they leave it behind and continue on their path.

Learn the principle,
abide by the principle,
dissolve the principle (forget intentionally).

Best,
CTK

[Liddel]

First off, you have a pretty significant misunderstanding of how traditional Chinese martial arts were taught.

My Sifu Who was under Lok Yiu and GM Ip from late 50's to late 60's is of a similar opinion to Graham, based on his own first hand experience. Im curious what you mean by the above quote matt ?

People do forget that GM Ip left a lot of teaching to assistants and those assistants even had assistants. My Sifu Was Lok Yiu' assistant for many years and many that say they were taught by Lok Yiu actually were taught by my sifu and had dialougue with Lok Yiu and occasional hands on training, so while they are not wrong they are not totally correct based on how you look at it :o

Also my understanding of the mantra "it does not go out the door" as told to me by my sifu, is that in those days it didnt mean you had to hide your VT, it just meant that you didnt share theory and that if someone was looking at you practicing you didnt perform a form properly as to identify them as having looked and learnt and not being TAUGHT.

GM Ip was famous - many strangers wanted photos - many people asked him "show me some kung fu master Ip" many even payed just for groups of actions. Is it ok years later they state they "learnt kung fu from Ip Man" you cant say they didnt - but paying for a group of actions isnt being a student of VT in my book.



Second, WSL himself is quoted talking about how Ip Man forgot quite a few things intentionally in order to be a more natural fighter. He never planned on teaching.

You dont think that these issues would come up at training ? hey sifu how come Si hing has this different to me ?
My Sifu said there were many discussions with core students over tea and dinner with GM Ip where actions would be dicussed theory was talked about over a social setting. So at least for earlier students that had direct teaching for Gm Ip - there WAS continuity.



Third, WSL himself also changed his own sets to suit his own needs as he progressed.

Yes and WSL made it known what he changed and why... and his system is called WSL Ving Tsun which is different to individuals calling thier own interpritation Ip Man Ving Tsun when in fact there are major differences and or gaps....etc



Fourth, a good teacher will always evolve and it is the responsibility of the students to evolve with what they learned. The only thing unintelligible here is to think otherwise.

I totally agree, however there are parts one can't change without changing the core therefore the art itself IMO at this point we should agree you need to call it your VT or another name all together with no deception reagarding being Ip Man VT.



About the only thing you said that is of any value is that it is up to the student and how they interpret it.

If you're content with your style/art why be concerned so much if it came from the GM or not, this is my mindset. The unfortunate part of VT history is that there are those that seek to be associated with GM Ip when they were not, all for the sake of what...more paying students :o:eek::(

[GlennR]

Well maybe you worded it wrong. I have read David's books. David is a friend of mine and he's a great guy.

This forum produces some great comedy. It would be better for people to forget the past. Who cares where Ving Tsun came from? Who cares about the past? Once you (gen) get engaged in what happened in the past then you are speculating at best. We simply cannot be sure.

Everybody is different and we find beauty in different things. One persons like will be another persons dislike. If we were all clones the world would be a boring place. Let's just enjoy the banter that politics bring and keep training hard and improving!! ;)

Even the title of this thread is nonsense! :)

GH

Steady on Graham..... im agreeing with you for a change!

[Graham H]

...agree with Liddel......don't agree with Matt (as usual)......Glenn? It's ok for you to see sense for a change! :D

GH

[GlennR]

...agree with Liddel......don't agree with Matt (as usual)......Glenn? It's ok for you to see sense for a change! :D

GH



Actually, i think your head has been hit too many times in PB Chi-Sao death matches and your finally being reasonable.

Lets just hope it hasnt ruined your modelling career as well ;)

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1101677I believe 100% that Yip Man had one core system of Ving Tsun that he only taught to a very select few people. WSL and Yip Bo Ching being two of them. This was because they were athletic, willing fighters and intelligent people. Friends as well as students. The others (and there are many) maybe had attributes that didn't allow the knowledge to be cultivated and were probably not in Yip Man's favour. Prior to the Hong Kong days Ving Tsun was very cloak and dagger. Would it not be correct to assume that Yip Man was also cloak and dagger about his teachings and who he taught it to?? Maybe it was even the same with WSL which would explain all these differences in a system that has culminated in using the word "interpretation" to explain differences.

Yip Man would not have chosen to teach people different methods. He would have been selective on what he taught to who and when. If Yip Man had this attitude then maybe his closet students carried it on.

The fact is that with Ving Tsun you can teach all but not all will grasp it. It was the same in my Teacher's Teacher's school. It is the same in my Teacher's school and it is the same in my school.

Quality Ving Tsun is dependent on the intelligence of the person Teaching and practicing it. As WSL said....."When an intelligent person speaks he will only be understood by another intelligent person. If a foolish person speaks then he will only be understood by other fools!"

........the human factor!!!

GH[/QUOTE]

Other YM students that got it??
Lok Yiu, TST, Leung Shung?

Id be interested in your opinion

[aelward]

You dont think that these issues would come up at training ? hey sifu how come Si hing has this different to me ?
My Sifu said there were many discussions with core students over tea and dinner with GM Ip where actions would be dicussed theory was talked about over a social setting. So at least for earlier students that had direct teaching for Gm Ip - there WAS continuity.



(


My Sifu Lo Man Kam corroborates that. In an interview with Inside Kung Fu back in the 90s, he said,

"At that time in Hong Kong, food was very cheap, 1 HK dollar could buy snacks for six people. So after class, all the students would get together and buy some rice soup or fruit and talk about what we had learned that day. Yip Man would always come with us, and answer any questions we had, or tell us where we could have done better, or give us some insight to ponder. So we students had a great sense of camaraderie at that time, and great respect for our teacher. "

[LoneTiger108]

....I believe 100% that Yip Man had one core system of Ving Tsun that he only taught to a very select few people.

Funny that, because this is what I have recently been researching ;)

What will grab you (maybe!) is that when Ip Man was teaching Wing Chun that's exactly what he was doing. It wasn't defined as 'Ip Man' anything. Just Wing Chun. His sons are responsible for the branding, and that may have been the initial 'mistake' imho as it instantly caused separation.

The thing is, if we could all accept a 'Core' that was obviously taught to Ip Mans close students (and many other mainlanders who never met Ip Man too!) then this thread is meaningless because there would be NO LINEAGE madness in the first place.

We live in unfortunate times :(

[GlennR]

Funny that, because this is what I have recently been researching ;)

What will grab you (maybe!) is that when Ip Man was teaching Wing Chun that's exactly what he was doing. It wasn't defined as 'Ip Man' anything. Just Wing Chun. His sons are responsible for the branding, and that may have been the initial 'mistake' imho as it instantly caused separation.

The thing is, if we could all accept a 'Core' that was obviously taught to Ip Mans close students (and many other mainlanders who never met Ip Man too!) then this thread is meaningless because there would be NO LINEAGE madness in the first place.

We live in unfortunate times :(

Yeh but , you agreed with me earlier YM was influence by to 2 teachers (and i bet there were others) so the WC he came up with was his own.
Just like TST, WSL, LY etc have their own.

Wether YM branded it his own or not...... it was his

Oh, and we live in very fortunate times.... imagine us not being able to crap on like we do ;)

[kowloonboy]

...agree with Liddel......don't agree with Matt (as usual)

As an outsider, this sound bias. :)

[Graham H]

Actually, i think your head has been hit too many times in PB Chi-Sao death matches and your finally being reasonable.

Lets just hope it hasnt ruined your modelling career as well ;)

....which implies that you think you are right and I am wrong so the feeling is mutual. We will live another day!! ;)

GH

PS. The modelling career is going swimmingly! :D

[Graham H]

Other YM students that got it??
Lok Yiu, TST, Leung Shung?

Id be interested in your opinion

I haven't had enough contact with LS & LY lineage to pass judgement. I did have some meetings with one guy from the US that had been taught in the LY lineage but he was a little bit like a robot and didnt like the fact that he wasn't as good as he thought he was so he never returned. As usual too much sticky sticky to be effective.

As for TST I have met him and I don't like his way of thinking, his movement and I don't like party tricks!

GH

[Graham H]

The thing is, if we could all accept a 'Core' that was obviously taught to Ip Mans close students (and many other mainlanders who never met Ip Man too!) then this thread is meaningless because there would be NO LINEAGE madness in the first place.(

You are right. There shouldn't be! The core should remain the same. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. This can only happen through pure lack of knowledge or from passing on incorrect information.

Let's take Tan Sau as an example. To me it's a punching concept. To others it is a block. Two totally conflicting ideas. Can we put that down to "interpretation" or shall we just say somebody saw somebody practicing it once and put two and two together and came up with 11??? :confused:

GH

[Graham H]

this sound bias. :)

...you be correct!!! ;)

GH

[mawali]

Let's take Tan Sau as an example. To me it's a punching concept. To others it is a block. Two totally conflicting ideas. Can we put that down to "interpretation" or shall we just say somebody saw somebody practicing it once and put two and two together and came up with 11??? :confused:

GH

It can simply be solved by the blocking faction vs the punching faction? who will be the last man standing? Isn't that the goal? Test it! It is not rocket science, methinks!

[CFT]

It can simply be solved by the blocking faction vs the punching faction? who will be the last man standing? Isn't that the goal? Test it! It is not rocket science, methinks!You could do that, but since this is a discussion forum we can just apply some logic and talk on ...

Tan as a pure block lacks the directness and economy of motion that is so readily espoused by Wing Chun practitioners.

Tan as a strike that is also a block gives 2 outcomes from 1 action - simultaneous offence and defence (lin siu dai da).

[Graham H]

You could do that, but since this is a discussion forum we can just apply some logic and talk on ...

Tan as a pure block lacks the directness and economy of motion that is so readily espoused by Wing Chun practitioners.

Tan as a strike that is also a block gives 2 outcomes from 1 action - simultaneous offence and defence (lin siu dai da).

Perfect! ;)

[trubblman]

You are right. There shouldn't be! The core should remain the same. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. This can only happen through pure lack of knowledge or from passing on incorrect information.

Let's take Tan Sau as an example. To me it's a punching concept. To others it is a block. Two totally conflicting ideas. Can we put that down to "interpretation" or shall we just say somebody saw somebody practicing it once and put two and two together and came up with 11??? :confused:

GH

I didnt know they could be differentiated. It seems to me that anyone, who looks at the palm strikes and tan sau, can see that tan sau can turn into strike.

[Graham H]

I didnt know they could be differentiated. It seems to me that anyone, who looks at the palm strikes and tan sau, can see that tan sau can turn into strike.

It doesn't turn into one. It is one.

[trubblman]

It doesn't turn into one. It is one.

Whether you say it is or turns into, is just semantics. However I would have to disagree because to say it is one implies that a strike will always follow a tan sau. A strike can follow a tan sau or another block, a tan sau could transform into a bong sau or fook sau for instance. If it does it's not always a strike.

[couch]

Whether you say it is or turns into, is just semantics. However I would have to disagree because to say it is one implies that a strike will always follow a tan sau. A strike can follow a tan sau or another block, a tan sau could transform into a bong sau or fook sau for instance. If it does it's not always a strike.

It's not always a strike, but isn't that what the goal is? Everything that comes out is 'trying its hardest' to make it in life as a strike. If it gets stopped short of its goal, then Mr. Strike changes briefly to something else in order to facilitate another strike.

[Liddel]

I get what your saying Matt and i guess we are reffering to different instances. Im not refering to the "first generation students" its well documented who they were and what they learnt, i was talking about the hoardes of people who claim they learnt directly from Ip Man who didnt or those that rest on the lorales of "learning with Bruce lee" to somehow elevate thier VT.. etc

I also chimmed in because there are so many differences between students from later generations of Ip and many like to lay it all on Ip changing his teaching style etc when the differences they have are obviously thier own doing.



None of Ip Man's first generation students care about any of this with the exception of a few who to this day have serious ego problems. They all view each other as fellow students who went to a great school and learned from each other, and they respect whatever skill level each other achieved.

Yes but ask them about later generations and that changes. My Sifu found Gm Ip crying one day about the association and the path VT was taking in his later years. He lost control of things that were his, it outgrew him to some extent..
People started to treat it like a business and it became about money for some individuals.



Who are you referring to of a first generation student who calls their system the Ip Man system??? I can't think of any. They all use their own names as far as I know. :confused: If you're referring to them claiming they learned from Ip Man, I already addressed that above.


Confusion yes - first generation no problem - same page. BUT
If you've never encountered people TODAY that pay for lineage when they spent thier whole lives learning a seperate line of VT just to say they are decendents of IP Man.... COUNT YOURSELF LUCKY ;)

I thought thats where we were in this thread, my bad.

Talking about the Tan -

It doesn't turn into one. It is one.

Ive always seen it as both, its live, it has inch power, centrifical (sp?) force. a good Tan whilst blocking will be sharp and penatrating. Same with Kev taking about people "wristing" rather than good elbow control, ive always use both with an emphasis on the elbow....do we have to chose one over the other ??? Total inclusion IMO is good VT. Thats how i break your bridge and catch the target at the same time, shoulder elbow wrist body unity. Yu Ma lik. (sp?)

Is this not getting off topic ? how does it relate to what Ip said ?

[Graham H]

Whether you say it is or turns into, is just semantics. However I would have to disagree because to say it is one implies that a strike will always follow a tan sau. A strike can follow a tan sau or another block, a tan sau could transform into a bong sau or fook sau for instance. If it does it's not always a strike.

No its not semantics!! If you think Tan is a block then that's fine! I don't! I used to but I don't anymore because I was given a different way of thinking that I feel is more logical.

Agree to disagree.

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Whether you say it is or turns into, is just semantics. However I would have to disagree because to say it is one implies that a strike will always follow a tan sau. A strike can follow a tan sau or another block, a tan sau could transform into a bong sau or fook sau for instance. If it does it's not always a strike.

I do wonder if Ip Man EVER used the word 'block'? Because it is not represented in any of the curriculums I have studied. In fact, I would go as far to say 'blocks' simply do not exist in Wing Chun. Parrying, yes, head on blocks, no.

And if I read anymore 'discussion' about whether tan, fook or bong 'strikes' I might just lose the will to live! :( These are core concepts that relate to everything in Wing Chun, not just the hands. I refer to them as the 'seeds' of WCK. Where everything grows :D

[lance]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1093670]This has been thrown around a bit, what Ip Man really said, who he really trained, who he give the "real stuff" too, and blah, blah, blah...
I really don't pay attention to it or follow it that much, but I do have a question:

Ip Chun is Ip Man's son right? his heir right?
Doen't he have the "real" Ip Man WC? and doesn't he KNOW who his father trained and what his father said and so forth?
Wouldn't HE be the one with the "real history" ?---------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bits and parts of it -yes.The whole picture? No. He and his brother Ip Ching can say and have said that their father trained with Leung Bik...and other things their father or did when they were young. But Ip Man left them in Foshan in 1950 and took his daughter who was to be married in Macau.
Ip Chun and Ip Ching were not around their father from 1950 to 1962. In 1962 Ip man was winding down his teaching.

joy chaudhuri

joy chaudhuni , are you the Sifu of the templewingchun ? Are you the sifu which is pictured in the middle of the rest of the other WC intructors ? The next time you connect with Ho Kam Ming Sifu , ask him if he was training with a Au Sifu
( stanley Au ) ? The reason why I ' m asking you is because your post seems to have the answers , that ' s why .

[lance]

[QUOTE=lance;1100792]
Movies are just movies. They are made to entertain an audience. Documentaries are a better source if you're looking for facts.


Ok Phil , then tell about any documentries of Ip Man and the Wing Chun History then ? Educate me then ?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=lance;1102149][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1093686]

joy chaudhuni , are you the Sifu of the templewingchun ? Are you the sifu which is pictured in the middle of the rest of the other WC intructors ? The next time you connect with Ho Kam Ming Sifu , ask him if he was training with a Au Sifu
( stanley Au ) ? The reason why I ' m asking you is because your post seems to have the answers , that ' s why .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Lance- I am or try to be. Augustine Fong is my sifu.Ho Kam Ming is my sigung and he learned directly from Ip Man... hours and hours and years and years of private lessons. He goes back and forth.. Macao, HK, a township on the mainland and Canada.He is in his late 80s now. I have not seen him for several years. Is this the Au sifu who learned from WSL or a different Au? HKM sigung knows/knew lots and lots of wing chun folks.
I don't know about answers but I am committed to a long term wing chun path. I don't make my living from wc., but I do it daily and have done so since 1976.
Thx and good wishes,

joy chaudhuri
PS: I enjoy reading your comments on the forum.

[trubblman]

I do wonder if Ip Man EVER used the word 'block'? Because it is not represented in any of the curriculums I have studied. In fact, I would go as far to say 'blocks' simply do not exist in Wing Chun. Parrying, yes, head on blocks, no.

And if I read anymore 'discussion' about whether tan, fook or bong 'strikes' I might just lose the will to live! :( These are core concepts that relate to everything in Wing Chun, not just the hands. I refer to them as the 'seeds' of WCK. Where everything grows :D

Maybe you need to read more closely I never said bong tan fook were strikes.

I use the term block because it's easier to use that word than parry, deflection or indirect block.

[lance]

[QUOTE=lance;1102149][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1093686]

joy chaudhuni , are you the Sifu of the templewingchun ? Are you the sifu which is pictured in the middle of the rest of the other WC intructors ? The next time you connect with Ho Kam Ming Sifu , ask him if he was training with a Au Sifu
( stanley Au ) ? The reason why I ' m asking you is because your post seems to have the answers , that ' s why .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Lance- I am or try to be. Augustine Fong is my sifu.Ho Kam Ming is my sigung and he learned directly from Ip Man... hours and hours and years and years of private lessons. He goes back and forth.. Macao, HK, a township on the mainland and Canada.He is in his late 80s now. I have not seen him for several years. Is this the Au sifu who learned from WSL or a different Au? HKM sigung knows/knew lots and lots of wing chun folks.
I don't know about answers but I am committed to a long term wing chun path. I don't make my living from wc., but I do it daily and have done so since 1976.
Thx and good wishes,

joy chaudhuri
PS: I enjoy reading your comments on the forum.

Hello Joy , thanks for those kind words , your sifu Fong is a good sifu , I ' ve seen him perform in a tournament in the california area . He also learned Hung Gar &
Choy li fut styles and has a very sharp (good ) lion dance group . And I also heard that Sigung Ho Kam Ming himself learned from Ip Man privately . and the Sifu that my 2 - friends had learn wing chun from ? Is Sifu Au keong and may know Sigung
Ho Kam Ming . Also Sifu Robert Yeung , because at one time Sifu Yeung went to visit Sifu Au ' s class , and my friend also talked with him and found out about the taining in Hong Kong when they were learning from Ip Man alone . Sifu Au has retired and allowed the students under him at that time to teach on their own if they wanted to , my 2 - friends also had their own class until they got old and retired and selected 2 = students to teach and carry on their wing chun classes .

But Joy , the thing is that Ip Man had alot of students learning under him so to me it ' s hard sometimed to remember their names . And somebody mentioned too that it all depends on how well these students were able to absorb the teachings of Ip Man too , which to me is true too .

But joy , you seem to be doing well in your Kwoon too with assistant sifus too .
Are you hispanic ? Later on I post more information about Wing Chun .

Take Care

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1102201][QUOTE=lance;1102149]

Hello Joy , thanks for those kind words , your sifu Fong is a good sifu , I ' ve seen him perform in a tournament in the california area . He also learned Hung Gar &
Choy li fut styles and has a very sharp (good ) lion dance group . And I also heard that Sigung Ho Kam Ming himself learned from Ip Man privately . and the Sifu that my 2 - friends had learn wing chun from ? Is Sifu Au keong and may know Sigung
Ho Kam Ming . Also Sifu Robert Yeung , because at one time Sifu Yeung went to visit Sifu Au ' s class , and my friend also talked with him and found out about the taining in Hong Kong when they were learning from Ip Man alone . Sifu Au has retired and allowed the students under him at that time to teach on their own if they wanted to , my 2 - friends also had their own class until they got old and retired and selected 2 = students to teach and carry on their wing chun classes .

But Joy , the thing is that Ip Man had alot of students learning under him so to me it ' s hard sometimed to remember their names . And somebody mentioned too that it all depends on how well these students were able to absorb the teachings of Ip Man too , which to me is true too .

But joy , you seem to be doing well in your Kwoon too with assistant sifus too .
Are you hispanic ? Later on I post more information about Wing Chun .

Take Care

__________________________________________________ ___
Hi Lance- I am of Asian Indian origins..a Bengali from Kolkata-I go back from time to time mostly through Tokyo, Hong Kong, Bangok or Singapore stop overs> I have met Sifu Yeung of Honolulu years ago and he knew my sifu.I continue to work on my wing chun.I am interested in other martial arts but a version of Ip Man wing chun is my core and good enough for me.
Good wishes, joy

[Phil Redmond]

[QUOTE=lance;1104054][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1102201]

__________________________________________________ ___
Hi Lance- I am of Asian Indian origins..a Bengali from Kolkata-I go back from time to time mostly through Tokyo, Hong Kong, Bangok or Singapore stop overs> I have met Sifu Yeung of Honolulu years ago and he knew my sifu.I continue to work on my wing chun.I am interested in other martial arts but a version of Ip Man wing chun is my core and good enough for me.
Good wishes, joy
Joy, I never knew you were Bengali. I had students and lots of Bengali friends in Detroit.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1104108][QUOTE=lance;1104054]
Joy, I never knew you were Bengali. I had students and lots of Bengali friends in Detroit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Phil- as Bengali as they come. Kolkata(calcutta) was founded on 3 villages. One of them Gobinda pur was founded by Gobinda Dutta- a distant relative from a different part of the very extended family. I will be visiting India later this year but probably won't make it to Bengal.
I hope to see some other martial arts-probably some sword (talwar)work.
Lots of Bangladeshis in Detroit. I am from West Bengal... same language tradition.
If I lived in Kolkata I would open a school there but no point in having one in absentia.

joy