The conceits of some Kung Fu people

[KC Elbows]

Talking about things teachers do to keep their style hidden, and the utter uselessness of it in the modern era.

"I didn't teach him the real style"

Really? So you conned a paying customer? How nice. Remember when you called your students friends/family? You were lying. The fact that you had to say so speaks volumes.

"I alter the form in demos"

This is a leftover from the era when people stole forms and taught, something that doesn't pay the water bill these days. Knowing a form is little, and anyone worth their salt can figure out that steps 1-88 all work a lot of things you've worked on the body mechanics of for years, step 89 looks like a waddle, and steps 90-108 look like something you worked hard on again.

"I don't teach the real style until after these seven forms that I made up."

It must be embarrasing that your students would know more about moving in relation to another human had they taken salsa lessons over your six or seven forms, and that, even after you teach them the real style, they'll have to train and teach 7/8 of their time in things that have no basis in usage.

And I'm not joking about salsa lessons. Every time they move in relation to one another, every time you do form you're not, and the two man sets, after years of other stuff, don't exactly make up the difference.

"I move well, so and so doesn't look like he could move."

Fighting seems to have more to do with moving in relation to others than how we move on our own. Athleticism is cool, but moving well at one thing does not relate to reading and moving in relation to others.

Add your own as you remember them, this is not an attack on kung fu, just remembering the old days, and having a beer in honor of their demise. I'm all for preserving the USAGE of every style possible, and care not one bit about preserving any other part over that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I never understood any of that and I hope I never will.
Anyone I train is able to fight in a question of weeks, able to fight well in a question of months and able to hold their own VS a trained fighter in a year.
If not I am doing a horrible job, period.


Fighting seems to have more to do with moving in relation to others than how we move on our own. Athleticism is cool, but moving well at one thing does not relate to reading and moving in relation to others.

Very well said.

[KC Elbows]

I forgot to mention the importance of suggesting that your rivals will become impotent from the way they tuck their sacrum.

In Sanjuro-Ronin's case, if he were only more internal, his ip bags would get rubbed a lot more.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I forgot to mention the importance of suggesting that your rivals will become impotent from the way they tuck their sacrum.

In Sanjuro-Ronin's case, if he were only more internal, his ip bags would get rubbed a lot more.

I will present your suggestion to the wife, anything is worth a try !

[KC Elbows]

I will present your suggestion to the wife, anything is worth a try !

I'd hate to think I was the cause of ip bags not getting the rubbing they need in two countries.

[David Jamieson]

Artists usually go on about how it is hard to mix business with art.

It is mostly hard because they never were taught how to conduct business in art school.

In an odd way, this applies here as well.

[hskwarrior]

Do people REALLY talk like that? i don't believe that ****. you're joking right?

[KC Elbows]

Do people REALLY talk like that? i don't believe that ****. you're joking right?

Actually, each of the examples I used are almost direct quotes I've heard.

[bawang]

This is a leftover from the era when people stole forms and taught, something that doesn't pay the water bill these days.
1965-1970 hong kong

[Drake]

1965-1970 hong kong

I have trust issues with Chinese.

[David Jamieson]

I have trust issues with Chinese.

You gonna finish that sentence?

[Drake]

You gonna finish that sentence?

Food?

????

[bawang]

i went to si chuan restarurant last week, i shat blood.

[KC Elbows]

i went to si chuan restarurant last week, i shat blood.

You digest like ABC.

[David Jamieson]

Food?

????

I would've gone for:

lead toys

factory owners

cosmetic products

political structure

geopolitical aspirations

Food

so, yes, food was on the list, it's still your turn. :p

[SPJ]

yes, there are many concealing hands or hidden hands in just about every posture in kung fu.

they are revealed as you advance in any school.

they are not really hidden in the beginning.

just when you learn the basic moves and as you advance

more are evident or revealing to you.

just the stages of learning one must go thru

not really the teacher is hiding anything from you from the very beginning.

--

:cool:

[bawang]

yes, there are many concealing hands or hidden hands in just about every posture in kung fu.


nope mbjbbjh

[curenado]

You make a good enough point about teaching alternates to less favored students.
Ethically, one probably should not accept them at all, instead of teaching them a good enough fighting style for the bread and butter.

They are bread and butter students in mcdojo's and in private schools.
But if we decline all but master's choice, we deny B&B students the potential opportunity to win status after they have proven themselves. We do not always credit someone at first with what they demonstrate to us later.

We also cut out the funding that allows all the students to study in style, which is another reason private studios accept public students. I do not think it is fair to exploit anyone, but there are people who can not handle some knowledge but are still able to learn it.

I think as long as the student is getting more than a fair deal from you what you teach to who is teacher's business.

[Water-quan]

I read a really good book recently that was nothing to do with martial arts - but the author made a point about people who borrow evidence from the future - from stuff that hasn't even happened yet - and how bogus that is.

That's just what so many CMAers do and not just CMAers - though, they are usually the most useless looking, fat, laughable ones of them all, hence they spring to mind more easily - ALL their proof is in the future, when they'll kick your ass, or, what they'll do when out on the street and get attacked...

The really big divide in martial arts, now, is people whose evidence is already presented, and people whose evidence is somewhere in the future. Unless of course, someone actually DOES turn up at their gym, in which case 'call security!' or 'Hey, even though I said come to my gym for a fight any time, I'm now going to portray you as a thug who turns up to people's classes for a fight! I've got to do something to distract attention from my embarrassment!'

LMAO

[Water-quan]

Actually, each of the examples I used are almost direct quotes I've heard.

You hear themall the time - even this forum you hear ridiculous stuff regularly, and people put up ridiculous videos as a matter of course.

Over the years, frauds learn how to 'manage' criticism - so they learn all these daft sayings and ways of turning it all on the people with common sense who see through the fraud. Of course, the standard is, well where's YOUR video of you doing the amazing thing I'm pretending to do for REAL??

Er, well, I'm not pretending to do an amazing thing. We end up treating Tracy Emin as equivalent to Leonardo Da Vinci because people can say hey, where's your masterpiece? Er, I haven't got one, but that just shows Emin is as crap as me, not as good as Leonardo.

My favourite is the way you can get a bloc of mutually supporting frauds, so they can say 'hey, he's highly respected! Just ask anyone round here...' Er, yeah... but, highly respected by whom? You? Lol..

Second only to when one fraud attacks another one - as a fruad! LMAO!

Isn't it funny though, how disproportinately these people are attracted to set-ups where real skill is 'hidden'??? Lol. What a multitude of sins that hides.

[SPJ]

there are body frames forms

or basic stepping, basic arm movement etc

they may also be called gong jia or just jia zhi.

practice of which is vitally important.

without practice of them, most of the app will not work.

and yet, the frame forms do not look like apps apparent or directly or right away.

---

[KC Elbows]

You make a good enough point about teaching alternates to less favored students.
Ethically, one probably should not accept them at all, instead of teaching them a good enough fighting style for the bread and butter.

They are bread and butter students in mcdojo's and in private schools.
But if we decline all but master's choice, we deny B&B students the potential opportunity to win status after they have proven themselves. We do not always credit someone at first with what they demonstrate to us later.

We also cut out the funding that allows all the students to study in style, which is another reason private studios accept public students. I do not think it is fair to exploit anyone, but there are people who can not handle some knowledge but are still able to learn it.

I think as long as the student is getting more than a fair deal from you what you teach to who is teacher's business.

You raise interesting points.

My view is, a teacher is only qualified to teach their expertise. As long as they teach that, they are ethically okay.

Teaching limited aspects while determining the ethics of a student is common, I just find that it is often an unnecessary control. For example, by trying to retain the good students and the questionable ones, one is choosing to keep the questionable ones, often endlessly, so that one increases the likelihood of the wrong person learning further techniques. In kung fu, the best way to lose students that aren't serious and willing to accept that you have moral expectations on them as people is to teach them properly, that has been my experience. Ethically questionable people are the least likely to be able to accept their own limitations, and proper training exposes that most quickly.

This is not me saying you're wrong, you have good points, and my solution is not perfect, but one cannot retain a bad student, bad ethically, without allowing a lot more opportunities to glimpse or train techniques that can harm.

Sometimes, it is better to simply cut ties in an amicable way, "I'm not saying you can never train with me, but that I find that you seek to harm people who don't deserve it, and your own ideas should tell you that using your training to harm those with less experience than you is seeking nobodies to make yourself feel good. When you know this, I'd be more than willing to train you."

To retain such students cannot be ethical without also teaching nothing of value, which is also not ethical.

[KC Elbows]

You hear themall the time - even this forum you hear ridiculous stuff regularly, and people put up ridiculous videos as a matter of course.

Over the years, frauds learn how to 'manage' criticism - so they learn all these daft sayings and ways of turning it all on the people with common sense who see through the fraud. Of course, the standard is, well where's YOUR video of you doing the amazing thing I'm pretending to do for REAL??

Er, well, I'm not pretending to do an amazing thing. We end up treating Tracy Emin as equivalent to Leonardo Da Vinci because people can say hey, where's your masterpiece? Er, I haven't got one, but that just shows Emin is as crap as me, not as good as Leonardo.

My favourite is the way you can get a bloc of mutually supporting frauds, so they can say 'hey, he's highly respected! Just ask anyone round here...' Er, yeah... but, highly respected by whom? You? Lol..

Second only to when one fraud attacks another one - as a fruad! LMAO!

Isn't it funny though, how disproportinately these people are attracted to set-ups where real skill is 'hidden'??? Lol. What a multitude of sins that hides.

Great post. The greatest capacity to hide one's reachings is in the work required to acheive skill and the ability to get along required to gain skill from having good training partners. Many schools lose this benefit by endorsing an insular "we're better than others" attitude that allows them to get along inside school, but be hostile to outsiders. By never accepting that kind of BS, one retains far more control over the ethics of students than by giving an ethical pass in regards to one's own circle.

[KC Elbows]

there are body frames forms

or basic stepping, basic arm movement etc

they may also be called gong jia or just jia zhi.

practice of which is vitally important.

without practice of them, most of the app will not work.

and yet, the frame forms do not look like apps apparent or directly or right away.

---

A good school trains them with the apps in mind, imo.

They themselves do not lead to the apps without knowing what the intent of the basic is. One cannot practice the basic well without some understanding of its goals.

I'm not disagreeing, merely branching from that point. The basic does not hide the app, but reveals it.

[Lucas]

Many schools lose this benefit by endorsing an insular "we're better than others" attitude that allows them to get along inside school, but be hostile to outsiders.

all too true :(

[curenado]

A student is not necessarily "bad" or to be ejected because they aren't "master's choice". They like to be at dojo and part of a school too.
What I meant was the one's that I have around where I live, that take on more complete skills and are capable of more than combat - the one's who help uphold and take care of the school and most likely to carry forward the tradition.
A student is not necessarily bad because they do not wish to possess the knowledge and skill to handle more, they are just "regular". I should have been more specific.

I agree with you that a sociopathic type will not be comfortable or happy in a open, upright type of fraternity. They are not able to negotiate it or cope and it does not meet their perceived needs - they flake off to find a nice ex-cia need-to-be in a more artificial environment.

[TenTigers]

I never quite understood why respected teachers would put out crap in demos, or vids.
Whether they are hiding the real from onlookers, or whatever, why do they not realize that their stuff is now out there, and that is how they will always be remembered, no matter if they are really good or not.

[TenTigers]

and W T F is with the face!
Why does everyone on the cover of IKF or some other magazine (not KF magazine, thank God) have to make that ridiculous, eyes bulging, just sat on a tack, face?

[Lucas]

sometimes you really wonder if so and so has such and such for reals anyway...

[JamesC]

and W T F is with the face!
Why does everyone on the cover of IKF or some other magazine (not KF magazine, thank God) have to make that ridiculous, eyes bulging, just sat on their sack, face?

Fixed... :D

[wenshu]

Hey, thats my gynecologist!

[GeneChing]

and W T F is with the face!
Why does everyone on the cover of IKF or some other magazine (not KF magazine, thank God) have to make that ridiculous, eyes bulging, just sat on a tack, face?Newsstand sales. You have no idea what moves on the newsstands until you try to sell something there. I'd been a freelancer for almost a decade and I was shocked when I learned how newsstands really work. For niche mags like us, expectations are a huge factor. If we step too far away, we aren't recognized and our newsstand sales plummet.

This is changing now as newsstands are disappearing.

[taai gihk yahn]

If we step too far away, we aren't recognized and our newsstand sales plummet.

Well why don't you move into more conventional areas of publishing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy6uLfermPU)?

[bawang]

I never quite understood why respected teachers would put out crap in demos, or vids.

people in modern times want crap, they dont want real thing

"real kung fu"? you want to to drill marching for two hours and memorize flag signals?

[Drake]

people in modern times want crap, they dont want real thing

"real kung fu"? you want to to drill marching for two hours and memorize flag signals?

And soft, luxurious silk pajamas.

[KC Elbows]

Most martial arts publications are selling to one form of sensationalism or another, mma have plenty of mags that have more to do with the publicity than the method. TMA made an early advantage of the exoticism, but exoticizing the styles led to practitioners unable to make ordinary use without risking being seen as non-traditional(see youknowwhos comments about shuai jiao coaches and san shou couches being in the back of the line for parading into the comps). Either one is useless to the people trying to stay on the forefront of effectiveness in their system.

That said, mma manuals tend to be better organized for usage, with important exceptions in tma.

And, in fairness, it is a rare day that I don't have the look of a man who has sat on his nutsack, while brutalizing another guy in silk pajamas. It's because I'm so attractive. Even straight men lose their self control, and then I have to break out the tiger fork, not because I don't understand their ardor(or, in the case of my British admirers, ardour), but because I am sparing them my wife's wrath.

[lance]

Talking about things teachers do to keep their style hidden, and the utter uselessness of it in the modern era.

"I didn't teach him the real style"

Really? So you conned a paying customer? How nice. Remember when you called your students friends/family? You were lying. The fact that you had to say so speaks volumes.

"I alter the form in demos"

This is a leftover from the era when people stole forms and taught, something that doesn't pay the water bill these days. Knowing a form is little, and anyone worth their salt can figure out that steps 1-88 all work a lot of things you've worked on the body mechanics of for years, step 89 looks like a waddle, and steps 90-108 look like something you worked hard on again.

"I don't teach the real style until after these seven forms that I made up."

It must be embarrasing that your students would know more about moving in relation to another human had they taken salsa lessons over your six or seven forms, and that, even after you teach them the real style, they'll have to train and teach 7/8 of their time in things that have no basis in usage.

And I'm not joking about salsa lessons. Every time they move in relation to one another, every time you do form you're not, and the two man sets, after years of other stuff, don't exactly make up the difference.

"I move well, so and so doesn't look like he could move."

Fighting seems to have more to do with moving in relation to others than how we move on our own. Athleticism is cool, but moving well at one thing does not relate to reading and moving in relation to others.

Add your own as you remember them, this is not an attack on kung fu, just remembering the old days, and having a beer in honor of their demise. I'm all for preserving the USAGE of every style possible, and care not one bit about preserving any other part over that.

KC elbows ,

I agree with you reading and moving are 2 - different things . You can read , but can you comphrehend what you ' re reading in motions . It takes constant practice , but ! yeah ! the moves could change to make it suitable for yourself . If you don ' t like the moves then , you ' re not going to practice it , you might as well modify it to make it the way you like it .

Are you a dancing teacher KC elbows ? What kind of dancing do you really teach anyway ? So I have a better idea of what kind of dancing you' re teaching .

[SPJ]

facial expression actually used up a lot of your muscle

screaming also used up a lot of your chi and muscle

they effect your recruitment of muscles and mobilization your chi for fighting

---

for cover purpose

it is better lose eyeglasses

even thou we know LT is phD?

----


:D

[bawang]

the first photo looks like leung ting is raping his student
second photo look like he holding his penus

[-N-]

and W T F is with the face!
Why does everyone on the cover of IKF or some other magazine (not KF magazine, thank God) have to make that ridiculous, eyes bulging, just sat on a tack, face?

Somehow people think it means their kungfu is bad @ss.

But in reality, it just means that it is bad.

[YouKnowWho]

"I don't teach the real style until after these seven forms that I made up."

One of my students has been with me for less than 2 months. he just won the 2nd place in a local grappling tournament. He used the head lock that I taught him and took his opponent down 3 times.