Dit Da Jow questions

[Phil Redmond]

Does any one know of a way to make Jow without using liquor?
Phil

[Asmo]

Hmm, alcohol seems best suited to extract the oils form the herbs that go into the jow. Also, when using the jow, alcohol will evaporate which also has a cooling effect. I've heard of some people using vinegar instead, but personally I prefer to stay save and use what they have been using for ages =)

[PlumDragon]

There are a variety of ways to make jow, and are several ways of preparing herbs in general.
The 3 primary bases in dit da jow are alcohol, water, and oil with alcohol being by far the most popular. There are vinegar based recipes out there, but also, some single herbs are prepared in (or with) vinegar.

Alcohol based dit da jow has warming properties, and is absorbed quickly. Dit da jow actaully means hit fall WINE, whereas, if you want to be picky, oil based liniments arent dit da jow at all...they are dit da YAO.

Oil based dit da "yao" absorbs more slowly, and you can control this speed by what type of carrier oil is used. It usually uses a combination of oil extracts instead of whole herbs and so it is a bit easier to control the potency of the mixture and it also doesnt require the aging period. For these reasons it is more favorable for those who dont want to wait, or for amssage purposes (because you can dilute the mixture for whole-body use, plus it offers good lubrication).

Water based liniments are not commonly used, because although water is an extremely good solvent, it doesnt have the moving properties, or the penetration power of alcohol or oil.

It is also important to note that practically *every* dit da on the market uses a combination alcohol/water base for solvency issues and because most people have to use Vodka, which is 40% alcohol, 60% water--Although, I buy pharmaceutical grade ethanol as 95% pure alcohol that doesnt have all the flavoring crap in it that Vodka does, and mix it with pure water to make a mixture that is near the proportions above.




Hmm, alcohol seems best suited to extract the oils form the herbs that go into the jow. Also, when using the jow, alcohol will evaporate which also has a cooling effect. I've heard of some people using vinegar instead, but personally I prefer to stay save and use what they have been using for ages =)Alcohol does NOT have a cooling effect, it just *feels* cool as it evaporates. Alcohol is an invigorator, and is classified as having a hot energy and sweet and bitter flavor.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . Dit da jow actaully means hit fall WINE, whereas, if you want to be picky, oil based liniments arent dit da jow at all...they are dit da YAO. . . .
Thank you PlumDragon. I make my own Jow. When I was in NYC I used to by Saam Jing Jow (Thrice distilled wine), "under the counter" in Chinatown. Now I use Vodka. I've had students that didn't want to use Jow make with loquor for religious reasons. That's why I asked. My Cantonese is pretty fair and Tit/Dit Da Jow is Iron Hit Wine. ;)
Phil

[PlumDragon]

Sorry, double-post.

[PlumDragon]

Thank you PlumDragon.Youre quite welcome! =)



I've had students that didn't want to use Jow make with loquor for religious reasons.Well oil-based jow is the way to go then, IMO. Its easy to make, but somewhat difficult to find. Im considering releasing an oil-based liniment in the future but I see little demand.



My Cantonese is pretty fair and Tit/Dit Da Jow is Iron Hit Wine. ;)There is debate over this, and really, it doesnt much matter either way--The reason I brought it up was to make a differentiation between the name of alcohol based liniments (jow, jiu, jau, etc) and oil based liniments (yao, yau, etc). As for spellings, "dit da jau" in Cantonese, and "die da jiu" Mandarin.
EDIT: I believe tie3 is iron, and die1 is to fall.

[Phil Redmond]

Since I don't know about oil based Jow I'd be interested in buying some from you for my students that would prefer oil based Jow. Let me know if you decide to make some.
Phil

[Asmo]

I understood that alcohol being applied externally is cooling due to the vaporation, but internally has the warming/hot effect? (one of those cases where different application determines the properties) Will have to look back where I got this from though, crappy memory ...

[PlumDragon]

I understood that alcohol being applied externally is cooling due to the vaporation, but internally has the warming/hot effect? (one of those cases where different application determines the properties) Will have to look back where I got this from though, crappy memory ...
No; the substance is irrelevant in the phenomenon you are talking about. The same thing happens with water for example, and is due to the fact that molecules with more energetic nature (ie, more heat) have a higher probability of vaporizing and when they leave the surface of the skin they take the heat with them.

[Yum Cha]

Sifu makes a commercial product that is oil based, peppermint oil is the main ingredient. www.kungfuoil.com

He says the oil based preperation is a premium recipe. I just use it, but don't get it near your eyes or other tender places...

The oils are also good for burns, mosquito bites, or irritations. Some people are allergic to it though, so you have to be careful.

FWIW

[herb ox]

Right on folks, it's good to see this discussion on board again sans hecklers or trolls.

PlumDragon - as always, I enjoy your concise but thorough treatment of the subject. I do have one question for you, though. How is your high grade ETOH produced? While in theory I absolutely agree with your reasoning, in practicality, I generally try to err in the direction of nature. Just as some extracted and concentrated (or synthetic) products may not be as effective (taking side effects into consideration) as their original counterpart, I feel an alcohol base distilled from grain may have side-products that unwittingly have beneficial side effects. Maybe there's some sort of phenol or something that will assist in penetration or adds to the lubricity of the base. You don't want it do evaporate too quickly, as the massage that it the application accompanies is as important as the jow. (I'm not trying to convince you to change your formula, though!:p )

Yum Cha - I know some oils are very good for application over cuts and burns, but it seems like maybe unsterilized/uncooked oil preparations might harbor bacteria. Also, my Sifu always used to adivse keeping the jow out of open wounds, but there was always controversy as to exactly why. I guess I just wonder if this applies to oils as well...

Phil - I just bought a new dit da yao that's probably available locally (though I'm not trying to detract from PlumD's future formulations ;) ). It's called Wan Hua Oil or Die Da Wan Hua Oil. I tried it recently and it seemed to work pretty well. It's got more than just the usual menthol, it also uses some of the essentials found in many dit da formulae: hong hua (safflower), xue jie (dragon's blood resin), gu sui bu (drynaria rhizome) and several others. A net search ought to bring you some results... I really like this formula and it smells great (like kung fu colonge :D )

peace

herb ox

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks to all of you that have contributed to this thread. I've always wondered about making a bruise linament without alcohol. I'll be looking into to Yum Cha's, PlumD's, and Herb Ox's suggestions. And it is nice to have an intelligent and respectful thread. :D
Phil

[Asmo]

Also, my Sifu always used to adivse keeping the jow out of open wounds, but there was always controversy as to exactly why.

The explanation I heard most is that jow is too low in alcohol to kill of bacteria and might've become contaminated. It also sounds most logical too me... (and then there are jows with poisnious herbs ofcourse)

[PlumDragon]

PlumDragon - as always, I enjoy your concise but thorough treatment of the subject. I do have one question for you, though. How is your high grade ETOH produced? While in theory I absolutely agree with your reasoning, in practicality, I generally try to err in the direction of nature. Just as some extracted and concentrated (or synthetic) products may not be as effective (taking side effects into consideration) as their original counterpart, I feel an alcohol base distilled from grain may have side-products that unwittingly have beneficial side effects. Maybe there's some sort of phenol or something that will assist in penetration or adds to the lubricity of the base. You don't want it do evaporate too quickly, as the massage that it the application accompanies is as important as the jow. (I'm not trying to convince you to change your formula, though!:p )
Thanks Herb ox, your comments are much appreciated!

The ethanol I use is a pharmaceutical grade grain-ethanol made 100% naturally with grain the same way that Vodka is; Im with ya 100% on this topic and its part of my philosophy in making jow: I prefer completely natural and synergistic all the way, which is why I buy what I do. Vodka has additives in it for flavoring that arent natural, which I dont care to have in my jow; its less "pure" because of that flavoring and so I chose to spend a little more money to have a product that is devoid of flavorings and synthetic substances that are found in liquor from the liquor store.

This is NOT to say that my prodct is 100% ethanol. It is a balanced mix of "hydrous ethanol", which makes it about 45 %...

Hope that answers your questions?

[Judge Pen]

The jow we use can be made with either alcohol or vinegar, but with the vinegar you have to add another herb to it and cook it to get the same effect.

Personally, I think the vinegar based jow works a little better for healing bruises, but they both do a good job.

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks Herb ox, your comments are much appreciated!

The ethanol I use is a pharmaceutical grade grain-ethanol made 100% naturally with grain the same way that Vodka is; Im with ya 100% on this topic and its part of my philosophy in making jow: I prefer completely natural and synergistic all the way, which is why I buy what I do. Vodka has additives in it for flavoring that arent natural, which I dont care to have in my jow; its less "pure" because of that flavoring and so I chose to spend a little more money to have a product that is devoid of flavorings and synthetic substances that are found in liquor from the liquor store.

This is NOT to say that my prodct is 100% ethanol. It is a balanced mix of "hydrous ethanol", which makes it about 45 %...

Hope that answers your questions?
I never considered additives in Vodka. :(
I'll never get too old to learn.
Thanks,
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

The jow we use can be made with either alcohol or vinegar, but with the vinegar you have to add another herb to it and cook it to get the same effect.

Personally, I think the vinegar based jow works a little better for healing bruises, but they both do a good job.
My Sifu's Iron Palm Jow has vinegar. And yes we have to cook it. I should look into that for my own Jow.
PR

[vikinggoddess]

You can make infused oils then add essential oils and beeswax to make a salve like this one which works very well:
http://chinesetherapeutics.org/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=52&products_id=226

[Ban-Hou]

Hello,

I have a quick question, do how long is it recommeded to apply Dit Da Jow to an injury? 2-3X daily, but for how long?

Is there a limit or maximum?
Thanks~

[Piercinghammer]

I have found it best to soak a cotton ball with the Dit da jow. Put the cotton ball at the point of injury, cover with clear plastic wrap and then cover with an ace bandage to hold everything in place.

The reason why this works is that it allows the pores to open and the medicine
work on the area. I would only do this for an hour or two at a time maybe twice
a day. Any more than that and the skin might break out into a rash.



Mike Biggie
7 Star Praying Mantis, Hong Kong Branch
Choy Li Fut, Hung Sing Branch
Yang Tai Chi

Shaolin Boxing Academy, Akron Ohio.

[Ban-Hou]

Thanks. I'll do that. Is it safe to do it for multiple days until injury is gone?

Thanks

[Dale Dugas]

Ban Hou,

You could do this twice a day as Mike suggested. You might get a rash from your medicine but its only the skin being irritated by the herbs in the formula.

Be well,

Dale

[Ban-Hou]

Thanks for your reply. And yes, I noticed a slight rash but I washed it with herbal soap and it went away.

Thanks again!

[Royal Dragon]

What kind of injury do you have?

[Ban-Hou]

It was on my ankle.

[TenTigers]

besides the jow, healing the injury is in the massage-tui-na or ahn -moor. When we "rub out" a bruise,sprain, etc, it takes quite some time. We first lightly massage with soaked warm jow in cotton ball-for about five minutes. Then the hard stuff starts-YEOWWWCH!! for a bruise, usually circular,sprains follow the direction of the tendon. this is for quite some time depending on degree of swelling, coloration, etc. Then light stroaking and slapping to bring in fresh blood. Finally covered with soaked gauze of cottonball and wrapped.

[Royal Dragon]

I would not wrap with plastic. Soak it in Jow, massage it in.

Have you seen a doctor?

[Ban-Hou]

Thanks a lot, TenTigers - extremely helpful.

RoyalDragon, no, I didn't yet go to the doctor. Thanks!!

Thank you all.

[Royal Dragon]

You might want to go have it looked at, in case it's something Jow alone can't fix. If you have a soft tissue injury, you may need to have it imobilised for a bit for it to heal quick.

I am a firm believer in the Chinese methods, but sometimes an exray is the best diagnostic method there is. You can gravitate towards Chinese herbal methods after you know for sure what is wrong.

Even in China, they use western methods where they work better, and thier own when it is superior.

Once you know what is wrong, Master Troy has a really good jow...if you can talk him into shareing. I'd give you some of mine, but I don't have any made up right now.

[Royal Dragon]

Also, if it is causeing a rash, you are useing too much, or you need a different formula for your Jow. Or it may have been made with a very strong alcohol. A slow simmer on the stove is what is needed to remove the alcohal so you can put it on your skin without rashes.

[Ban-Hou]

Okay, great. Thanks a lot. I was planning to go to get my neck Xrayed as well. My ankle is much better, now. But I think the neck needs to be done.

If you ever get any made up i'd really like to try yours, if possible. I'd pay for the materials, etc.

Thanks a lot!

[Royal Dragon]

What is wrong with your neck? Same pain as before? or an injury that is new?

[Ban-Hou]

Yes, same injury. From my previous... experience.

[Royal Dragon]

How is the injury doing?

I was going to come by class yesterday, but I was too bogged down with work to do so.

Hopefully things are beter now.

[Ban-Hou]

A little better now, thanks!

I hope to see you in class, soon!
Thanks

[Royal Dragon]

Good, Glad to hear it!! :)

[Beginner]

I have some experience with neck & cranial injury. If U can state in details.. I maybe of help.

Cheers

[Ban-Hou]

It's just a chronic pain on my left side and when I turn it to a certain extent it sends a sharp pain.

I feel like it's slowly getting better, because i've recently started practicing good kung fu - but not sure. I plan on meeting a specialist soon.

[Beginner]

It could be a slight dislocation from an injury. I got mine from training. There was abt 1mm dislocation at the 7th vetebrate. Specialist told me I need physio & surgery. I got a good chinese ditDar & fix it back in a week. It have been 2 years. There is no repercussions.. C-T Scan has reveal my problem where X-ray had failed. I believe get a scan then search for a good DitDar.

Let me know how u going.


Regards

[Lam Tong Long]

Dependant on the specific formula there are some dit da cho that require no cooking. Southern Mantis Cho is merely herbs soaked for a few months in vinegar.

In hakka:
da yok jiew = wine
da yok cho = vinegar
da yok yow = oil

In our tradition we use cho and jiew. They are slightly different in purpose. I also know a bak mei guy who uses cho (made with such things as a rusty bolt and scorpions!).

[Royal Dragon]

Why not make the alcohal yourself? I bet you can get 40% far cheaper by making it, than buying it.

[Chan Da-Wei]

Hi,

Other than off the shelf bottled spirits, can anyone recommend an alternative base in which I can use for my Dit Da Jow? Can I use 50% ethanol and 50% water? Is there a better alternative?

The tax on spirits here in NZ is pretty high. The cheapest I can find for one Gallon (3.7 l) of Vodka is NZ$130.

BTW am following the formula in Tooth from a Tigers Mouth.

Any help appreciated.

Many thanks,
David

[OTD]

Chan Da-Wei
You can try fermenting rice to make rice wine, then freezing out the water
to up the alcohol percentage. It takes some time but it will probably be
very inexpensive.
I believe there was a thread/discussion on this subject over a year ago.
Try searching the archives, or 'Google search" .
Hope this helps
OTD

[herb ox]

Yeah, that's a tough one... indeed, as OTD has pointed out, a search of the forum will certainly return many threads where this issue has been discussed... even outright argued about. I believe it was PlumDragon who uses the rice wine freeze technique with good results. Seems like a lot of hassle to me, though. Although that's how you'd have to do it if no cheap vodka was available.

You may have different taxes for pure lab-grade ethanol. Try calling some chemistry supply houses to see what they can offer you. Though you might have to buy a 55 gallon drum of it :D

Outside of distilling your own or using isopropyl alcohol (not recommended) you can always try using vinegar. Do a thread search for that one, too... much debated but worth a try. The properties of the formula will likely be modified as a result of vinegar base, therefore I suggest you modify the ingredients to reflect the warm, astringent nature of the vinegar (also depends on which type you use). Avoid white vinegar straight, I'd say... the acidity is just plain too high.

good luck

herb ox

[Chan Da-Wei]

Herb Ox and OTD,

Thanks both for your advice. I like the idea of the Brewing my own Rice Wine......apparently it can stink pretty bad I hear so will have to get wife approval first:)

Some great tips too...cheers for pointing me in the right direction...saved me a lot of time.

D

[Piercinghammer]

Give this a try.



50% ethyl alcohol, 35% water and 15% Chinese rice vinegar.


Mike Biggie



http://akronkungfu.com/html/chinese_herbs.html

[IronWeasel]

Give this a try.



50% ethyl alcohol, 35% water and 15% Chinese rice vinegar.


Mike Biggie



http://akronkungfu.com/html/chinese_herbs.html



Be careful, though...most Lab/Pharm grade ethanol is denatured...that is an additive is put in to make it undrinkable. You may not want that substance in your Jow.

$0.02

[Chan Da-Wei]

Thanks for that.....

My Chinese mother n law found it somewhat amusing that I was going to attempt to make rice wine.:rolleyes: She LHAO in fact and told me go buy some spirits as it would be a heck of a lot easier and 100% guaranteed to work.

Will go see a few chemists tomorrow to see if I can get non denatured ethanol...can see the look on the shopkeepers face already.

Cheers guys,
David

[GLW]

If you are wanting purely external use only from this, you can simply go to a chemical supply company and get the ethanol - listed as a solvent. It is available as 'mostly' ethanol - meaning it has about 1 or 2% methanol (ie wood alcohol) so it would NOT be potable (consumable).

Since a PROOF is 0.5%, mixing 50% of the ethanol and 50% water gives you basically a vodka equivalent. We have used this quite successfully. (after all, 100 proof whiskey is 50% alcohol, 49% water, and 1% flavoring/color/impurities)...

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, that's a tough one... indeed, as OTD has pointed out, a search of the forum will certainly return many threads where this issue has been discussed... even outright argued about. I believe it was PlumDragon who uses the rice wine freeze technique with good results. Seems like a lot of hassle to me, though. Although that's how you'd have to do it if no cheap vodka was available.

You may have different taxes for pure lab-grade ethanol. Try calling some chemistry supply houses to see what they can offer you. Though you might have to buy a 55 gallon drum of it :D

Outside of distilling your own or using isopropyl alcohol (not recommended) you can always try using vinegar. Do a thread search for that one, too... much debated but worth a try. The properties of the formula will likely be modified as a result of vinegar base, therefore I suggest you modify the ingredients to reflect the warm, astringent nature of the vinegar (also depends on which type you use). Avoid white vinegar straight, I'd say... the acidity is just plain too high.

good luck

herb ox


Although I've never made it myself, I prefer the vinegar cooked jow to the alcohol jow. I've found that the vinegar-made jow is faster acting and more typically effective then the alcohol.

Just my experience--nothing scientific.

[herb ox]

More effective using vinegar, eh? It doesn't surprise me especially if its for soothing the tendons. Gosh, maybe that's what I need for my knee...

Some say vinegar is not so good, though, as long term use may soften the bones from some sort of acid reaction with the calcium. 'least that's the theory.

As always, it comes down to chemistry. You gotta have the right balance of solvents to extract the active ingredients. It's a polar/nonpolar kinda thing, ya know?

cheers

herb ox

[Chan Da-Wei]

Thanks all for all the suggestions above.

I spent half a day going from Chemist to Chemist asking for 2 litres of (transparent) Ethanol. Strangely enough, none were prepared to sell such a large quantity to me. Might have something to do with the drug problem here in NZ.

I ended up managing to buy the Ethanol from an old client of mine. It has a very small % of Methanol in it to prevent ingestion. Only way of buying Ethanol over the counter in NZ.

Will only intending to use it for external use.

So I ended up using a mix of 50% water and 50% ethanol....over $100 cheaper than the vodka equivalent.

Pics attached....

[TenTigers]

I want to make an oil-based, dit da yao, which would be good fror more intensive massage. If I take my standard jow, and allow the alcohol to evaporate, what oil can I use to mix it with?
I am looking for an oil that won't go rancid, yet is not a petroleum product, as I am thinking that I don't want to absorb petroleum into the body.
Any ideas?

[taai gihk yahn]

I want to make an oil-based, dit da yao, which would be good fror more intensive massage. If I take my standard jow, and allow the alcohol to evaporate, what oil can I use to mix it with?
I am looking for an oil that won't go rancid, yet is not a petroleum product, as I am thinking that I don't want to absorb petroleum into the body.
Any ideas?

almond oil is excellent for the skin in general, and keeps in the fridge indefinitely once opened - maybe keep the two components separate and mix them just prior to application?

[PlumDragon]

The easiest approach is probably Olive Oil. It penetrates well and is obviously very common. Castor oil is cheap cheap and while its not very good oil or have very good penetration, it does linger around making it good for massage.

You could always go the rectified turpentine route; Ive been able to buy some at paint stores on the net for a reasonable price.

[Dale Dugas]

Olive Oil Pomice grade is the best oil to use.

Almond oil is too expensive.

To make Dit Da Yu( Dit Da Oil), you would have to boil the herbs in the oil. I usually grind them up and heat the oil and then add the herbs.

You have to watch it constantly as if it overheats it can catch fire.

PM me off forum and I can talk to you more about it.

[herb ox]

Sesame oil is the traditional base (that and pork fat)... heat the oil until it just begins to smoke then add the herbs and let them cook for awhile on low heat.

Filtering the oil is the hardest part, I think. I wound up just using a strainer and that got most of the big stuff out.

peace

herb ox

[Reverend Tap]

No idea on how well it would work as a dit da base, but the best oil I've ever seen for just absolutely never going rancid is coconut.

[ginosifu]

What you guys recommend to replace Tiger Bone for toughening the bone, skin, ligaments, etc etc? I know I can use pig bone but, I would like a none animal herb instead. What you guys use?

ginosifu

[Dale Dugas]

Gino,

You can add Du Zhong 60 grams to any formula to help strengthen the bones.

Many use a combo of Wu Jia Pi, Du Zhong, and Ba Ji Tian to help strengthen the bones, and the kidneys which rule the bones according to Chinese Medicine

Tiger Bone was used as they thought it had great levels of Qi from the tiger in it.

I do not use Tiger Bone but have used elk bone, bear bone, stallion bone, and other big animals.

You can take any bone, soak it in vinegar and then bake it on low heat for 4-6 hours. Break that up and you have a great substitute for tiger bone.

[ginosifu]

Gino,

You can add Du Zhong 60 grams to any formula to help strengthen the bones.

Many use a combo of Wu Jia Pi, Du Zhong, and Ba Ji Tian to help strengthen the bones, and the kidneys which rule the bones according to Chinese Medicine

Thanks Dale... I already use Du Zhong and Wu Jia Pi. I will look into the Ba Ji Tian.

Thanks again

ginosifu

[Dale Dugas]

Gino,

You can up the amounts of the Du Zhong and Wu Jia Pi and add 18-24 grams of Ba Ji Tian and see how it works.

[ginosifu]

Gino,

You can up the amounts of the Du Zhong and Wu Jia Pi and add 18-24 grams of Ba Ji Tian and see how it works.

I was at 30g of each, but I think I will try 60g of each and add Ba Ti Jian for my next batch.

ginosifu

[Dale Dugas]

Gino,

You can always contact me off forum with any questions you might have.

Let me know how I can be of service to you.

[PlumDragon]

Categorically, Tiger Bone is a Wind-Damp herb. Qian Nian Jian is probably the closest academic match.

[Oso]

Gino, don't you know Mike Biggie down south of you? He's pretty big in to the jao recipes.

[ginosifu]

Gino, don't you know Mike Biggie down south of you? He's pretty big in to the jao recipes.

Yes I do, I speak with him often. We have exchanged dit da jow info many times. He is a great Dit Da Jow sifu. In fact I usually order some herbs that the local Chinese Herbal shops can not or will not offer.

ginosifu

[ginosifu]

Categorically, Tiger Bone is a Wind-Damp herb. Qian Nian Jian is probably the closest academic match.

Thank you Josh, I was thinking about using it myself but wanted some expert advise from you guys.

ginosifu

[ntc]

You can consider using Gu Sui Bu and charred animal shell crushed into powder as alternatives to Tiger Bone. Combine that with Xue Jie and the typical herbs in a Dit Da formula and you will have an outstanding formula to address bone issues.

[kage_less]

I have heard that there is much more Methods of brewing dit da jow than just covering the herbs in alcohol and shaking it everyday. I was hoping the more experienced jow brewers could shed some light and hopefully share some methods other than soaking in alcohol. Like cooking certain herbs before adding to the jow or heating the alcohol it's self that adding I even heard of burying the jow with peat moss? Thanks in advance


Tom

[YouKnowWho]

If your dit da jow is for external use only, you don't need any special treatment. If you also use it for drinking and if you use 杜仲(Du Zhong) in your wine, you will need to use a little bit water and salt to pan cook it dry before putting it in your wine. This will remove the bitter taste out of it.

This is the dit da jow formula that I like to use. Just ignore the "tiger bone" in that list.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5769/externalmedicine.jpg

[Dale Dugas]

Tom,

There are many different manners in which to prepare dit da jow.

The easiest way to make a better medicine is to grind the herbs course to help break down the cell walls in order to extract more of the active chemicals in the herbs into solution.

You then can heat your solvent up. Take your vodka or wine and place the bottles in hot water to create hot solvent and then add to your glass container containing your herbs.

Cool overnight, then seal it up and let it sit for 6 weeks.

Enjoy!

[kage_less]

Wow thanks ykw, and Dale I just started studying acupuncture so i ask my professor about enhancing the properties of herbs. which introduced me to the world of pao zhi so ive got some studying to do lol. how do you guys find grinding ru xiang and mo yao? i find it just sticks to my mortar and pestle do you guys recommend using a electric grinder if so can you recommend a layman version that will do the job and fairly inexpensive (Being a student makes me poor lo:Dl)

thanks in advance you guys are too generous
Thomas

[Dale Dugas]

Thomas,

Just got back from my annual training camp with my teacher, Dr. John Painter.

I do not grind Ru Xiang or Mo Yao as its hard. I process them with vinegar to help get the most out of the resins.

Let me know how I can be of service to you.

[PlumDragon]

I often grind Myrrh when it is part of a formula (as opposed to be sold whole by the ounce). If I include a portion of it with a good amount of other herbs that can kind of buffer the sticky resinousness of the Myrrh, then I find that I get a good grind and it does not adversely affect the grinder or gum anything up.

[LaterthanNever]

I've heard of some of the (to my western brainwashed perception and also b/c I'm not a student of TCM/AOM)..more..shall I say(with no offense intended) esoteric forms of remedies in different herbal formulas such as "flying quirrel dung" and "toad secretions" and "powdered scorpion".

It's not a judgement on the efficacy of these remedies of course.

Are there any herbs or remedies which should NOT be added to Dit Da(toxicity concerns)?

Thank you.

LTN

[Dale Dugas]

What do you mean should NOT be added?

All depends on how strong you want the medicine.

Toxic herbs are not put into formulas for no reason.

Many of the poisonous herbs help stop pain, move blood and qi, etc and adding them creates stronger medicine.

Adding them also creates a medicine that is okay to use externally but if introduced into the blood stream deadly. Hence you do not use DMSO ever when making jow as it could pull things into your blood stream.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, Opium and cocaine are probably not the way you want to go, LOL !
( some old school Jows use them).

[LaterthanNever]

Sifu Dugas,

Thanks for your timely reply. By "not" using..I guess that is relative. I've read for instance that some herbal formulas (can't remember if it was Jow specifically or an herbal remedy applied topically for other purposes) use mercury and arsenic. I guess a better way of putting is..what is the rationale of the schools of thought in AOM which are embracing of the more cautious side of certain remedies?(ie: don't add scorpion because it could be too potent)

Of course, I guess the argument can be made that if you titrate the dose down low enough..you could really add just about anything that is "poisonous" to Jow. After all..don't they use heroin in the U.K. medicinally?(by prescription).

SanjuRonin--LOL. So what would that be? Homeopathic coke/opium?

[Dale Dugas]

Opium was used as an anesthetic back in the day.

But I am not doing 25 to life for having Opium in my jow.

Zhu Sha is naturally occurring mercuric oxide and it will kill you if not poison you over time. One should never use it.

There are others that are only used topically and in lower dosages.

You really have to know what is in your medicines. If you do not, then do not use it as you have really no idea what is really in there.

Herbs used topically are not the same as having them in your bloodstream, hence you can use them externally but not internally.

Though some ingredients when added make the liniments better, but make them also smell like something dead has been sitting in the solvent.....

[kage_less]

I think Laterthannever means dosage like putting 30gms of zhang nao in a jow is crazy
Like my teacher says "The difference between poison and medicine is dosage" but I think he was referring to the hairy palm technique

May the qi be with you
Tom

[ntc]

Here are my two cents:

In China, typically each kung fu school will have different Dit Da Jow formulas to address the different types of injuries their respective styles cause based on its combat and strike principles. Focus can be on the extremities, internal chest cavity, head region, injuries to joints, muscles, etc. This is why the herbal ingredients will differ from formula to formula. Each formula is made with specific issues to address in mind. Other than the generic Dit Da Jow formula (discussed in the next paragraph), it is not customary to have an all-encompassing and STRONG formula to address the majority of issues, and certainly not one that contains very toxic herbs, most of which are used to address pain and/or infections.

At the same time, a basic formula is also made up to address the common injury and will use baseline yet powerful ingredients such as San Qi, Ru Xiang, Mo Yao. These formulas are normally very safe, especially when applied topically, and often form the base for a lot of over-the-counter Dit Da Jows that are available in the market. They are also frequently modified to address specific types of ailments, and this is where it gets tricky and potentially harmful if the person is not familiar with herbs. Not only can herbs be toxic on their own, but they can be toxic when combined with other herbs. Also keep in mind that even though the Jows are applied topically on skin (that is not open), nonetheless they are still absorbed through the skin via the pores and into the body. Hence, one needs to use toxic herbs like the ones discussed in this thread along with other toxic ones like Tian Nan Xing very carefully. And if the person is not familiar with Chinese herbs, then it is highly recommended that any custom formulation be critiqued by someone who knows Chinese herbs intimately before embarking on making the formula or doing a treatment.

[ShaolinDan]

Dale,

I was sure there was a thread that addressed what I'm going to ask, but I can't find it...sorry to make you repeat yourself...

I'm going to be placing an order with you in the near future, but I don't know much at all about dit da...

I assume that for hand training (iron palm too, but more specifically eagle claw training) I should be using an Iron palm formula, but do you recommend "Black Hand: Advanced Iron Palm Liniment," or "Premade Chan Ning Tong: Iron Palm Medicine"

Also, I'm not sure what to use for forearm and shin conditioning...which of your products do you recommend for this?

Thanks for your time,
Dan

[Dale Dugas]

Hey there
Many people use soaks for finger training but you can use a strong dit da jow
The black hand can be used for hand and arm training as well as shin training

[ShaolinDan]

Awesome. Thank you!

[chusauli]

Beware of Sheng Cao Wu, Sheng Chuan Wu, Shen Ban Xia, Sheng Tian Nan Xing... they are common, but they are toxic.

Older recipes use these, but many times, you can subsititute with the Cooked version of these herbs.

[ShaolinDan]

Received. Thanks for the speedy delivery, Dale.

[Dale Dugas]

My pleasure brother.

Let me know how it works for you.

[ShaolinDan]

Well, obviously no major developments so far (I'll get back to you in six months), but it seems to be working just great. Certainly better than the arnica I've been getting by with until now. :o My Shifu tried it out--he approved.

Thanks again, I'll let you know when I have more 'concrete' evidence. (Nah, I'm just kidding, I don't really expect I'll get into breaking, I'm just looking to toughen up some...I'd like to get to where I can spar with a tree without having to be careful, that would suffice for me. :) )

[Dale Dugas]

Excellent news!

Let me know how I can be of service to you.

[MrOneEyedBoh]

From looking around and doing research on these subjects, I have been continuously reverted back to this site. So why not join?

What Im after is a Jow that is used for Iron palm. So it would be for conditioning, strengthening, opening channels, and promoting blood flow and energy.

What Im going to do is get a more advanced formula ( Most likely Ku Yu Cheong Jow , the full version ) and let it sit for a while. I know they pretty much reach their max potential within 6 mths, but why not let it sit a bit longer? While that Jow is being extracted/set up, Id like to get one that is pre-made for the time being.

I know about Plum Dragon and Coiling Dragon, and I have been in contact with them via e-mail. They have both been of much help, and being very patient with me. What I'd like to know is what would the other guys recommend for a beginner's Jow that is already pre-made and ready to roll ( from an online vendor ). I'd like to use this for now ( the beginning stages ) and in case if ( also to replace for the time being ) I ever get any type of cut on my hands while Im using a Jow with any toxic herbs in it.

Lastly, if you have any more advanced Jow formulations that you would like to share with me, post em up.

Thanks!

edit: In the Ku Yu Cheong Jow, I see that there is the following:

Bai Hua She
Tu Bie Chong
Wu Ling Zhi

I was wondering how these should be prepared? Just coarsely grind them with a mortar and pestle? Cut them up a bit?

And I know for all of the other herbs, they should just be coarsely ground.

[Brule]

I think you have contacted two respected people in the field of jow and iron palm, so i'm not sure what else you're seeking. I would presume that most here would recommend them anyway.

[JamesC]

Like Brule said, we're all going to recommend one or the other.

I have experience with Dale's IP jow. His jow works the best of any i've used and he's always more than happy to answer any questions you might have in relation to either Bagua or Traditional Chinese Medicine.

Even if his jow WASN'T the best I have used(although it definitely IS) the entire experience of dealing with a knowledgeable TCM doctor, Bagua instructor, and all-around nice guy is more than worth the small price of his herbs.

[MrOneEyedBoh]

Yeah thats what I figured. Well thanks!

[WhiteTiger666]

Hi Every1,


what are your thoughts regarding heating of alcohol b4 adding dit da jow herb pack to it?

I know some guys say it is ok and helps speed the process and others are against it saying that the herbs get messed up and the jow is not as good.

what are your guys thought about it, im just curious.

:D

[Ben Gash]

My Sifu always taught me that cooked jow was the best, but it was somewhat impractical as it makes your house smell for weeks.

[David Jamieson]

The key to good infusion is how finely you grind your herbs. And how long you let them infuse.

Cooking anything will reduce and make stronger the efficacy but it also reduce content.

Alcohol is the vehicle for carrying the herbs into the skin, I wouldn't cook too much of it off. :)

If you want to use it sooner, a little cook can't hurt. If you have time, just let the process take place organically.

[PlumDragon]

Theres nothing wrong with heating the alcohol before adding it to the herbs. This is not strictly speaking, "cooking the herbs" but it does help to jumpstart the aging process and should not damage any of the more volatile herbs which might be damaged from a more thorough cooking process.


Cooking anything will reduce and make stronger the efficacy but it also reduce contentFor what its worth, the original poster isnt referring to cooking, rather just heating the alcohol before adding it to the herbs. This will not cause any reduction to occur.

[Dale Dugas]

There is a supposed "grandmaster" claiming to have Chinese Herbal Medicine training who teaches people to boil their herbs in alcohol for 2 hours. This would destroy all the volatile oils which many herbs contain and render them useless.

This is something you do not want to do for any reason what so ever.

Heating alcohol up is very very dangerous.

You do not EVER bring 20% or higher alcohol content to a boil no matter who is telling you. If you are using a gas stove and heat high proof alcohol you are going to blow up the kitchen, start a serious fire, and maybe get seriously burned in the process.

Many people will boil water and after it comes to a boil place their alcohol containers into the water with any caps off to ensure the pressure will not cause the containers to explode. This hot solvent will then do its work.

When you grind up the herbs and help break down the cell walls in the herbs, adding this to hot booze makes for more surface area on the herbs able to release their active components to the solution of the heated solvent.

Cold soaking is considered foundational and creates decent liniments.

Heating your alcohol will create something a little stronger.

I cook my liniments over 1-2 day process.

Certain herbs are added, certain cooking times are used for the various herbs.

The outcome is something much more complex than mere cold soaking. I can create almost a different formula when cooking one recipe and cold soaking the same herbs.

Let me know how I can be of service.

[WhiteTiger666]

Thanks guys for your input it shed some "light" on the topic. I do respect both Josh and Dale's opinion and have purchased product from both of you and am satisfied with what I got from you both. Dale you are really good guy in my book. Josh you are 2 both very generous and knowledgable.

Some guy tried to tell me I messed up a Hung gar formula he made me by heating it up and using whiskey instead of Gin. I really felt the guy didn't know what he was talking about although he has knowledge. The real issue i had is that the jow he advertised was pictured very dark color but when I made it it came out more brownish in color. One of Sifu Kong's guys, I felt he gave a bad name to his Sifu for being arrogant.

Ya know when I really think of it there are always different opinions and thats what makes up Ying/Yang energy so there really is no one way. We can see how this is playing out in the political arena in the world today bigtime. One side pushes left and the right counters. end of story.

:cool:

[Dale Dugas]

I am always happy to assist others who are interested in acquiring and using Chinese herbs for their martial arts training.

Let me know how I can be of service to you and yours.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I have actually done the reverse. Steam the herbs, place in jar and then add the wine. It allows for greater penetration. The jow darkens much faster this way and is much stronger.

mickey

[Dale Dugas]

Mickey,

Basically the same concept. Using heat the break down the cell walls of the herbs to help facilitate more active components in your final solution.

I know a local Dit Da teacher who steams his herbs 12 times, and dries them before making his Dit Da Jow.

Many roads but we all get a similar destination. good liniments.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Yes, in a way it is similar. I dare say that it is safer and more effective.

The original poster was given a suggestion that reminded me of some mean spirited advice that went, "The best way to sharpen a knife is on your tongue."


mickey

[TenTigers]

has anyone heard of "frying" the herbs first? Meaning, in a dry pan, rather than steamed or heat-soaked?
I would think that this would do the opposite of releasing the herb, but searing them, as you would first sear meat before braising, sealing in the properties.

White Tiger-I know of one herbalist in Chinatown that uses Johnny Walker black for his jow.
I have this image of a Monk in the Siu-Lum Temple..
"Oh no, we are low on Dit Da Jow! Kwai-Chang! Get on your horse and ride to Scotland!!"

Along the same line,one of my old Sifus has always insisted on Tanguery-which I think is not necessary as it is being applied topically and not ingested. Any store-bought gin/vodka/spirits of 60 proof+ would suffice.
You could use Fred's Gin and save the money.
I went the traditional way and bought Sam Jing Jow (Triple distilled liquor) which worked fine. I will however use gin next time, as the juniper berries have a soothing effect on the skin, and it's more aromatic. Also easier to get. Bottles and Cases is around the block, Mark's Liquor store on Mott Street is an hour away.
Oh, and I have a rewards card!

[Dale Dugas]

There are people who dry fry their herbs to help facilitate breakdown of the cell walls. You need to get the active components out of the herbs and into solution. Hence the use of heat to help.

Whether you steam, dry fry, or cook your herbs on low heat, you are affecting the solution to be as strong as possible.

Be careful of using high proof alcohol that are low on water content. 100% is not what you want to use. I would not go over 60% alcohol.

Anyone who tells you that you have to use grain alcohol is ignorant and needs to be corrected that some herbs are NOT alcohol soluble. Hence you have to have water in the medium as well for many herbs that are water soluble.

Cheap liquor has the best mixes. 40% to 60% is good, but watch out, you need to have a strong water content as well.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I have also seen the dry frying method. Works good. You really need a pan that the herbs cannot stick to. And you have to keep the herbs moving.

Alcohols I have used:

Johnny Walker Black

Stolichnaya

Kao Liang Jiew

Another brother of mine used Jack Daniels.


mickey

[mawali]

I have a bottle of Ditdajow and it is over 10 years old!
Just getting over 'frozen shoulder' right side and I used it, with some relief.
The aroma is stil there, it appears to be working!

QUESTION:
With no expiry date, is there a specific time that Ditjajow breaks down? Or, is there a rule of thumb on when it cannot be used?
p.s. the aroma is there, the analgesic feeling is apparent! I did shake up bottle and colour is still retained (more or less).

thanks

[Dale Dugas]

Depends on who made the liniment and what was the base.

FYI, do not EVER for any reason use Isopropyl Alcohol for any reason to make a liniment, no matter who tells you. It will break down into acetone overtime as well as be broken down into acetone by your lived when used. Avoid it like Zombie hookups.

Checking for jow to make sure its okay is a simple process. Is there anything floating on the top of the liquid that reminds you of a Kombucha fungus, discard it and do not use it.

If it smells like vinegar( and you did not use vinegar as a base), do not use it.

As long as it smells like the formula should smell, and there is no fungus, or mold on top of the liquid usually you are not going to to have an issue.

If you ever use a topical and it induces a rash or allergic reaction, discard it. Do not risk hurting yourself or others.

[charp choi]

has anyone heard of "frying" the herbs first? Meaning, in a dry pan, rather than steamed or heat-soaked?
I would think that this would do the opposite of releasing the herb, but searing them, as you would first sear meat before braising, sealing in the properties.

White Tiger-I know of one herbalist in Chinatown that uses Johnny Walker black for his jow.
I have this image of a Monk in the Siu-Lum Temple..
"Oh no, we are low on Dit Da Jow! Kwai-Chang! Get on your horse and ride to Scotland!!"

Along the same line,one of my old Sifus has always insisted on Tanguery-which I think is not necessary as it is being applied topically and not ingested. Any store-bought gin/vodka/spirits of 60 proof+ would suffice.
You could use Fred's Gin and save the money.
I went the traditional way and bought Sam Jing Jow (Triple distilled liquor) which worked fine. I will however use gin next time, as the juniper berries have a soothing effect on the skin, and it's more aromatic. Also easier to get. Bottles and Cases is around the block, Mark's Liquor store on Mott Street is an hour away.
Oh, and I have a rewards card!

The Chow Gar SPM recipe dit da jow I use (and make) - the herbs are fried in a little oil then added to the jar and then alcohol of your choice is used. Brandy seems to work best in.

[charp choi]

When we make Chow's family recipe dit da yau we have to simmer the oil before adding the herbs.

[LaterthanNever]

I'll be the first to admit I am not a veteran jow maker.

I read recently that it's suggested to boil the crushed herbs and vodka(after soaking).

I've never heard or read about this before. Has anyone heard of this?

Moreso, is this a common suggestion and is it a good idea?

[Dale Dugas]

Hello from Boston.

I had a customer recently mail me Brian Grays formula and directions for making Dit Da Jow, and its said IN PRINT, to boil vodka and add the herbs and simmer it for hours.

Are you kidding me? Seems our supposed GM of IP has no idea what he is talking about, but then again that is nothing new.

You boil vodka, and when it vaporizes you can ignite it and cause some serious damage, maybe even an explosion.

NEVER boil alcohol that has a high percentage of alcohol. NEVER NEVER NEVER.

You also do not want to boil your herbs in your solvent of choice for hours, as that would blow off most of the aromatics, and other compounds that are in the herbs. Anyone who tells you to do this has no idea what they are talking about and should be disregarded as uneducated and misinformed.

Certain herbs cannot be cooked for very long, or they lose their chemical potency.

What you can do is heat the vodka in the bottles it came in, with the caps removed, and then add the very hot solvent into your storage container with the herbs, let it cool, and then seal it for duration of the sitting period you use. Do NOT seal any bottles that are hot or warm as they could break. I have broken a few carboys over the years.

This is called Hot Soaking, and creates a stronger medicine IMHO compared to a cold soak.

Grinding your herbs also helps it to "cook" faster and draw out more of the active components in the herbs into the solution.

Unlike the old wives tales about needing to leave formulas for over a year, you can use your formula in 6-8 weeks. Just decant what you want into a smaller bottle and reseal the larger container.

Let me know how I can be of service to you, and anyone else wanting to make strong formulas.

[Faruq]

When I'd make mine, I'd buy the local store brand vodka and gin that came in plastic bottles along with plastic bottles of rubbing alcohol, and put them into glass jars that had the herbs in them. For that type of set up, how would you recommend heating the alcohol, and how hot can you make it with out breaking the glass jar from the heat, Dale? Or is there a better way that's not too expensive to make hot soak jow?

[Dale Dugas]

Faruq,

rubbing alcohol?

Rubbing alcohol breaks down into acetone by the liver.

Using jow made with rubbing alcohol is going to harm you.

NEVER use rubbing alcohol in making Dit Da Jow.

Who told you to use rubbing alcohol? They are misinformed.

You can boil water, remove it from the heat and let the plastic bottles of vodka sit in the hot water for 5- 10 minutes. Take them out, and be careful not to burn yourself.

You add this hot vodka to your herbs, and let the container sit for a few hours or until cool. Then seal it up and your are all set.

[Faruq]

Wow, thanks Dale! I thought the rubbing alcohol was okay since it's used for massages and stuff, and I'm glad I mentioned it now because now I know it's dangerous. Is it dangerous when used for massage or cooling someone off as well, or is it just dangerous when used in a jow?

And thanks for the other instructions as well!

[Dale Dugas]

Faruq,

IF you use jow daily then you will be exposing yourself to isopropyl alcohol that is way above the normal limits.

I have NEVER seen it used for massage lately.

We are taught when needling in acupuncture to use it sparingly.

It is not good for daily exposure at the levels used in Iron Palm training or injuries.

[Faruq]

Thanks again, Dale.

[Dale Dugas]

My pleasure, brother.

Let me know how I can be of service to you and your clan.

[LaterthanNever]

"Are you kidding me? Seems our supposed GM of IP has no idea what he is talking about, but then again that is nothing new."

Shrugs shoulders in universal gesture of not knowing. Never met the guy. But hey..if I had a dime for every dime I had for those who make exorbitant claims...:rolleyes:

"You boil vodka, and when it vaporizes you can ignite it and cause some serious damage, maybe even an explosion."

I know man..I'm thinking "If I remember my general chemistry from way back when..it just seems off the wall!! :eek::eek::eek::eek:

"NEVER boil alcohol that has a high percentage of alcohol. NEVER NEVER NEVER."

Yep.

Though..I guess my question now becomes..what do you think of boiling the actual herbs and other constituents before you soak them in sake or vodka?

Shrfu Dugas,

As always thank you for your kind opinions. I'm going to call you shortly.

Best,
LTN

[LaterthanNever]

I just re-read your answer.


If boiling the constituents is not recommended...or at least only some of them..do you think that boiling them briefly(not unlike one would make tea) would be a viable option?

I'd be happy to buy some Jow from you. I only tried experimenting with some of the herbs which I grinded in a coffee grinder and then soaked them in some 151 Vodka and Sake.

I used just some of the standard ones: Hong Hua, Dan Shen, Mo Yao, Fu Ling, Fang Feng,etc.

I also put some of the ones from different formulas such as Liu Huang"(sulfur) which is a component of the "mantis" jow and one other..I think it might have been pumice stone from the "Wing Chun" formula.

Not to worry Dale..I don't have any plans to sell mine..so I won't be a compeptitive threat to your company ;)

[Dale Dugas]

You are correct in that Liu Huang is sulfur unfortunately its not very good to use in any formulas.

It causes many problems.

I go out of my way to buy herbs that are not sulfured and are tested for pesticides, herbicides and insecticides.

Not something you want to use.

Many people are sulfur sensitive. It is also a major pollutant so its best to put it to bed. It has little to no functions outside open sore formulas.


Boiling your herbs is not an option, but you can steam them and many do that to open up the cell walls.

A well known Dit Da doctor here in Boston steams his herbs 12 times before adding them to his solvent.

He steams them and dries them 12 times.

I grind my herbs which does something similar.

[ntc]

Dale is accurate in his description on the Do's and Don'ts of preparation of the Jows. In China, we would use Rice Wine as the basis to soak the herbs. The blood invigorating property of Rice Wine is very strong, and it is especially because of this that it is used. We don't normally use vodka, and definitely not rubbing alcohol.

[Faruq]

Faruq,

IF you use jow daily then you will be exposing yourself to isopropyl alcohol that is way above the normal limits.

I have NEVER seen it used for massage lately.

We are taught when needling in acupuncture to use it sparingly.

It is not good for daily exposure at the levels used in Iron Palm training or injuries.


So then everclear's definitely out of the question then, lol. It's not even legal in my city.

[LaterthanNever]

"You are correct in that Liu Huang is sulfur unfortunately its not very good to use in any formulas."

Ooopsy Daisy!! :eek: Uh..I already added some(about 1 gram to about 2 gallons of vodka/sake)! Fortunately though, I have not applied any to my skin :)

"It causes many problems."

Would you be so kind as to list some please?



"I go out of my way to buy herbs that are not sulfured and are tested for pesticides, herbicides and insecticides."

How does one ensure that herbs don't contain any of the above? I mean..there is the language barrier insofar as..a fair # of proprietors (in Chinatowns) who run herbal shops/pharmacies do not understand english all that well(and I am NOT a racist..I'm merely relating what I have experienced when going to buy herbs). Do they know if the herbs they are selling me(or anyone for that matter) are sans herbicides??


"Many people are sulfur sensitive. It is also a major pollutant so its best to put it to bed. It has little to no functions outside open sore formulas."

Perhaps the form that the sulfur is in determines this? For instance...the trace mineral chromium is needed by the body for regulation of insulin in glucose metabolism..but only some forms(the trivalent form for instance)..some other forms are toxic. Same w/ sulfur. Eat eggs? sulfur is in the yolk in the form of sulfur containing amino acids. Same with garlic and some other foods too. Not trying to incite a debate..honest. It's just further inquiry..


I guess adding some other things such as scorpion(Quan Xie), centipede(Wu Gong), Bai She(white pit viper) and Tiu Be Chong(wingless ****roach) to the jow would also be a bad idea? :o:o

Another question for you Dale. I guess what is a challenge to process so to speak is..if for instance..using Liu Huang is bad..then why is it a constituent of the jow in the first place?(in this case..the mantis jow formula from plumdragonherbs.com)

Thanks again.

Best,
LTN

[LaterthanNever]

Incidentally...

Here is the recipe:

Northern Praying Mantis Bruise Dit Da Jow--Available in Half-Gallon Jars
Zi Wan (Aster Root) - 28 g
Chuan Wu (Aconite) - 28 g
Ban Xia (Pinellia) - 28 g
Long Gu (Dragon Bone) - 28+ g
Hua Jiao (*****ly Ash Pepper) - 28 g
Fu Hai Shi (Pumice) - 21 g
Tian Nan Xing (Arisaema) - 28 g
Gou Qi Zi (Lycium Fruit) - 28 g
Cao Wu (Wild Aconite) - 28 g
Liu Huang (Sulfur) - 14 g
Bai Bu (Stemona) - 28 g
Li Lu (Veratrum) - 21 g

[Dale Dugas]

Sulfur is an allergen to many people as well as being a pollutant to the environment. It reacts with other components to form acid rain.

It is used to artificially elongate the fresh appearance of herbs. Some of the nicest looking herbs are ruined by the application of sulfur. They do this to keep the bugs out as well as keep the colors bright.

The mantis jow formula you mention uses Sulfur as a component. According to Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine theory, sulfur is for itching skin and for killing parasites(hence they sulfur herbs to prevent insect infestation etc), and applied topically for scabies, ringworm and ulcers. It also tonifies Yang fire, and Ming Men.

There is no real use for it other than maybe to help with itching from the other herbs in the formula? As I mentioned before it is used in damp ulcerated skin lesions that are having trouble healing. There is very little help from this herb for this formula in my professional opinion.

Personally I would add She Chuang Zi to the formula to help guard against skin irritation from the Cao Wu, Chuan Wu and Li Lu which can be extremely caustic and poisonous.

Due to Sulfur being not only a pollutant and allergen, many practitioners have opted out of using any herbs from suppliers that do not test their herbs.

It might bother your skin and it might not. Test out the liniment and see if it bothers you. If you have an allergic reaction it could be from that or another allergen in your herbs. Or the combination of Cao Wu, Chuan Wu and Li Lu might be took much for your skin. All three of these herbs are quite potent. Which might not be a good thing from some people. Not all people can use certain formulas.

The only companies that regularly test their Chinese herbs are:

Mayway
Nu herbs
Kamwo
Spring Wind.

Spring wind not only tests for sulfur, but for heavy metals and pesticides, herbacides and other nasty things that can be present in low level, cheap herbs from unknown suppliers. They are the only herb supplier who tests for more of the above nasty compounds than others.

Their herbs are not available for general sale to the public. they only sell to practitioners.

I sell herbs only from the above companies. All of the herbs I use are sulfur free as well as being tested by the above companies.

I cannot vouch for anyone else, but if they are selling herbs not from those companies, they are of questionable quality. Most herbs from Chinatown shops are not tested, and I would avoid them at all costs as you have no idea what is in them as they are untested.

Adding the poisonous herbs, poisonous reptiles, insects are not a bad thing. It is not the same thing as having herbs full of sulfur. You have to be aware that the toxic herbs are toxic and you have to be very careful as to how much is used, as well as the people using the medicine.

You do not want to get scorpion or centipede venom into an open wound, as that could cause a reaction.

As long as your skin is intact and there are no open wounds, you should not have a problem.

As with anything that is this delicate and complex as Chinese Herbal Medicine, why would you purchase anything from a company owned by people who are not licensed and trained professionally as Chinese herbalists?

Laypeople are not trained professionally nor are they licensed to dispense any information on the usage and health benefits of Chinese herbs. Anyone doing that is practicing herbal medicine without a license.

I get many emails from all over the world about this and many other topics.

Let me know how I can be of service to you.

[LaterthanNever]

Sifu Dugas,

As always, thank you very much for your taking the time to answer in such detail. You have a very giving spirit and are a very appreciated member of the kung fu community.

Can I ask..does Ba Gua have a jow? All of those open palm strikes must need some type of way to soothe the trauma?


I mentioned to a friend of mine whose sifu studies w/ Grandmaster Lam Chun Fai in HK if his sifu would be willing to share his Hung Ga family jow recipe and it's funny..he said something to the effect of he might be willing to..but he might only for a deposit of 10,000 usd! :eek::D

"As with anything that is this delicate and complex as Chinese Herbal Medicine, why would you purchase anything from a company owned by people who are not licensed and trained professionally as Chinese herbalists?"

Absolutely!! I did not want to give the impression that I would do otherwise. The individuals I mention do advertise that they are LA.c./DAOM practitioners(who also sell herbs ). What I meant was..I don't consider MYSELF to be an expert.

"Laypeople are not trained professionally nor are they licensed to dispense any information on the usage and health benefits of Chinese herbs. Anyone doing that is practicing herbal medicine without a license."

Certainly. I do not in any way intent to portray myself as such. Sorry if I gave that impression.

[Dale Dugas]

Brother,

Thank you for the kind words.

Traditionally there have been some liniments with links to Bagua schools but if you were injured in China you were taken to the local healer and they would use their own recipe for liniment.

Many schools have the exact same formula with a few different herbs added to make it "theirs"

My Baguazhang system has a family formula for Iron Palm training. The public version was released a few years ago in IKF magazine.

No one outside of the family has the closed door version.

All Kung Fu schools should use Dit Da Jow, but many do not. It is a great product that can help mitigate the negative aspects of hard training.

[LaterthanNever]

"Brother,

Thank you for the kind words."

Anytime. I call it as I see it.


"Traditionally there have been some liniments with links to Bagua schools but if you were injured in China you were taken to the local healer and they would use their own recipe for liniment."


It's funny..considering his Ph.D. is in Physics, Dr. Yang Jwing Ming has a pretty deep(considering his academic training is in another field) knowledge of herbs/aom. He mentions in a book of his the contrasting ways that eastern and western medicine treats bone breaks. I'd imagine you would probably find more logic in the Eastern way of treating those types of injuries? Someone told me that at least here in the states, the "dei da"(sp?) aspect of setting bones is not really allowed due to the legislative vernacular. I guess if that is so, it really does pay to be in China..

"Many schools have the exact same formula with a few different herbs added to make it "theirs""

Yeah..I've noticed that.

"My Baguazhang system has a family formula for Iron Palm training. The public version was released a few years ago in IKF magazine."

Can I ask what back issue that was? An acquaintence told me recently that IKF is folding and ceasing operations. Who knows..

"No one outside of the family has the closed door version."

I'm not suprised..

"All Kung Fu schools should use Dit Da Jow, but many do not. It is a great product that can help mitigate the negative aspects of hard training."

A friend of mine(who like you is also an acupuncturist/aom practitioner) mentioned once that it's also common for many schools to recommend different formulas to take internally(non dit da formulas) to toughen the internal workings of the body. Do you agree?

Gung Ge Faht Choy!

LTN

[Dale Dugas]

IKF is no more. It stopped publications a while back.

I make and sell both formulas.

I will be making some premade in a few weeks.

I do not think about toughening the inside of the body, I think of it as tonification and moving of blood and Qi, to ensure no stagnation which is common in hard training.

[kukulcan]

I have been using a Hung Ga iron palm formula during my iron palm training. I am brewing up a batch now using the two soak method and it should be ready by late July. I can share the recipe with you if you want, and even send you a bottle if you want to try it. Just PM me.

[Dale Dugas]

Kukulhan,

I am curious as to your using a Hung Gar formula as a Choy Lei Fuht practitioner.

Do you not have some of the formulas used in Choy Lei Fuht?

Many of the CLF dit da jow are cooked into black vinegar and they can stink and stain when used.

Let me know what recipe you have as I can help you tweak it and make it stronger.

[xiao yao]

I have found in the north of China, no kung fu people seem to be interested in dit da jow anymore.

My shifu's shifu used to use a kind for iron palm jow that involved using tiger bones. I've been trying to get the recipe (minus the bones) from my teacher, but he doesnt know it.

I would like to have a go at making my own jow, but dont know much about it. I havent found any premade ones in China, they mostly have mass produced Yunnan Baiyao or hong hua you.

Would anybody be kind enough to share a simple recipe so I could have a go.

[PlumDragon]

I have found in the north of China, no kung fu people seem to be interested in dit da jow anymore.Agreed. They dont really seem to care and in some cases even seem to be purposely steer away from them. Fact is, all the purported "secret" formulas seem to have been publicly published at some time or another in China anyway. Maybe they steer away because they dont have any more carrots to dangle. ;)




Would anybody be kind enough to share a simple recipe so I could have a go.Heres 24 recipes (not all simple though):

http://www.plumdragonherbs.com/recipe.html

Im thinking about expanding that page some time in the next few months...

[xiao yao]

thanks for the link, nice to see you have a northern mantis recipe as thats my style.

[NJM]

Hey, all. Very long time no see.

After many years of using I am finally working out some of my own jows. Currently a Dit Da Yao. One thing I haven't been able to get clear on is how greatly the standard herb/solvent ratios change when using oil versus alcohol. One source claimed you use 25% more herbs per gallon of oil compared to alcohol.

Any tips/experience helps. Also, if there are any public Dit Da Yao formulas you know of, please link away!

[NJM]

To add, I am looking also for the correct ratio of herbal oils and extracts to carrier oil. IIRC Sifu Dale mentioned that herbal oils are alright to use in oil-based formulas.

[mickey]

Greetings NJM,

Here is a decent book:

http://www.amazon.com/Shaolin-Taoist-Herbal-Training-Formulas/dp/1880412004



mickey

[Mor Sao]

are you looking for an oil for massage?

oils are great for that, not for training as they trap in a lot of heat.

Are you looking for non alcohol liniments?

[NJM]

are you looking for an oil for massage?

oils are great for that, not for training as they trap in a lot of heat.

In my experience, I had great post-training results from Sifu Dale's blue dragon oil.

[NJM]

Greetings NJM,

Here is a decent book:

http://www.amazon.com/Shaolin-Taoist-Herbal-Training-Formulas/dp/1880412004



mickey
Excellent, thanks! I'll try to get a hold of it.

[Mor Sao]

The book afore mentioned is more about internal tonics, not injury liniments.

[NJM]

The book afore mentioned is more about internal tonics, not injury liniments.

Thanks for letting me know. I was going to have a friend order it through library loan.

Getting back to dit da jow, has anyone noticed that resins (dragon's blood, myrrh, etc) don't seem to fully dissolve in alcohol during extraction? They must be partly insoluble.

[herb ox]

Resins should be well pulverized. A little goes a long way and that's also why you gotta let the Jow steep for some months. Some folks will dip them in vinegar to speed the dissolution process. Maybe Mor Sao can comment further on that.

peace

herb ox

[NJM]

Resins should be well pulverized. A little goes a long way and that's also why you gotta let the Jow steep for some months. Some folks will dip them in vinegar to speed the dissolution process. Maybe Mor Sao can comment further on that.

peace

herb ox

I've always let my jows steep for months (my three main gallon jugs have been going on 3-4 years). But this is what I've found recently:

A 1:1 ratio of powdered dragon's blood (daemonorops, ground from chunks by me) to 40% alcohol dissolves ~20% after two days, stays relatively constant at this solution for weeks.
A 1:1 ratio of dragon's blood to 95% alcohol dissolves almost completely within a day.

Unlike most raw resins, it would appear that the daemonorops I use does not contain much alcohol-insoluable gum, but lots of alcohol-soluable oleoresin.