There is no such thing as authentic Wing Chun

[Hendrik]

Look deep into the Dna of Wing Chun kuen,


1,

There is no such thing as authentic Wing Chun.

Every Wing Chun from every family or linear has some different packaging.

Wing Chun is just the martial art of the Red Boat opera group.

And there are different groups of Red Boat opera member practicing their art since day one.





2, Wing Chun and Weng Chun,



a,
Wing Chun means Praise the Spring.



Wing Chun means Praise or Recite the Play since Chun means Play as the play of Opera.

As the name of the Dien Chun hall in the Shang Hai's Yui Garden, Dien Chun means the Hall of selecting Opera play. Dien Chun means select the Play. or select which play you like to watch.

So to be exact in today's language. Wing Chun means Praise the Play.



b,
Weng Chun means eternal spring.

Weng Chun is the name of a place in Fujian. Often the Weng Chun become the nick name of Fujian White Crane. Because the Founder of the White Crane reside in Weng Chun. Also, She was sometimes refer as Fong Weng Chun where her real name is Fong Chih-Niang.


and there is a Weng Chun Kuen in the Red Boat which is different with the Weng Chun of the Fujian but having the same Weng Chun name.



c,
As we know, in the red boat era, there are different types of martial arts co exist in red boat. from CLF to Hung Gar to White Crane to Shao Lin Tai Tzu....southern Shao lin..etc.


So, if one do a research on Wing Chun in the Red boat era, from evidents, one would find, Wing Chun is a martial art type core in SLT and further mix and evolve with other art ----such as White Crane, Hung Gar, CLF.....Southern Shao Lin....etc depend on which lineage of WCK.


Weng Chun of Red boat will be a different art which is core in Hung Gar, CLF, Shao lin instead of SLT core.



and, Some lineage of Wing Chun later evolve with some Weng Chun content and Weng Chun lineage evolve with Some Wing Chun content.

That is what happen from the view of DNA.





3, Siu Lin Tau


Siu Lin Tau is the Core of Wing Chun Kuen which was brought into the Red Boat by the Yim / Leung family. This type of art is called Siu Lin Tau by the creator Miu Shun instead of Wing Chun kuen. and we know today, by DNA, Siu Lin Tau is an art which is the fusion of Fujian Crane and Emei snake.





4, evolve and evolve and evolve.

If one look at the Chan Wah's Siu Lin set, one will see how Ip Man evolve his art with YKS set.

If one look at the distinct different between the Yik Kam SLT and the CLF set of Cho family, one will see how Cho family evolve their art.


if one look at the Sup Yat Sau/ Sam Bai fut of Weng Chun and Peng Kuen of Weng Chun, one will see how Weng Chun evolve.

If one look at the Koo Lo, YKS, Yik Kam SLT, one will see what Leung Jan did is to focus or Zoom in to the application teaching of Siu Lin Tau core.





So, tell me what is the authentic Wing Chun?
For me, there is NONE but all the Martial art of the Red Boat people.

The Question is how far have what one learn evolve down in the stream?


And different core trains different things, they conditions one's body different. IE: the Sup Yat Sao/ Weng Chun Kuen set will condition and evolve one's body different then the SLT. The CLF set of Cho family art will condition and evolve one's body different then the SLT.

Thus, one cant lie on one's kung fu DNA type because the body of different kung fu type has been condition or evolve in a different way.


It is a simple matter but God's know why we take decades and decades trap in our own delusion without seeing things which is right infront of our eyes clearly.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Perhaps you need to take an alternate view on what constitutes "authentic".

IMO, authenticity is highly individualized. Therefore I would say that every competent Wing Chun man is an authentic practitioner.

Suki

[Hendrik]

Perhaps you need to take an alternate view on what constitutes "authentic".

IMO, authenticity is highly individualized. Therefore I would say that every competent Wing Chun man is an authentic practitioner.

Suki



True. I agree.

[Hardwork108]

I agree that there may be a lot of authentic lineages and schools, but I also maintain that there is a lot of UNAUTHENTIC Wing Chun around as well, usually invented by cross trainers with dubious kung fu experience who have added bits and pieces to Wing Chun, in order to "improve" it, without having first understood it (core principles and concepts, included).

[ntc]

I am going to add my take on that. While I am in concurrence that it is difficult (perhaps impossible) to quantify authentic WC, however, you can still define the authenticiy of what you are teaching. Authenticity is valid when you have a set of governing rules by which you can certify / authenticate what you are trying to claim authenticity against. For example, while it may be hard to define authentic WC, it can be less difficult to define a certain branch of WC. Take me for instance.... I teach Ho Kam Ming WC, and I claim that to be authentic and based on the WC that I learned from Sifu Ho. I don't taint it at all. The basis is 100% from my own training, all the way down to methodology and drills. So, in that sense, I can claim authenticity to HKM WC as it was taught to me.

[Vajramusti]

Hendrik- I don't know what your point is on this thread. You have your "history".

I do wing chun as I have learned from Augustine Fong, who learned from Ho Kam Ming who learned from IpMan. The principles are quite clear to me and consistent in the line that i have mentioned. Applications and effectiveness can vary with the practitioner.

Consistent principles passed on carefully person to person makes for authenticity in a kung fu system - not labels or typed words. And as is reasonable people have to validate their understanding by their application.

I listen to other folk's understandings.

What's the big deal about this thread?

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

Why do people talk about things like DNA w/r to WC?

Is it like there's some amoeba out there someone hopes will crawl up on land thereby producing a higher life form?

[anerlich]

Why do people talk about things like DNA w/r to WC?



Certain individuals seem fond of latching onto inappropriate metaphors and then flogging them to death.

They must think it makes them sound cooler or more mystic or something. But it never works.

[Buddha_Fist]

I see it much like Western boxing. There are many schools out there, each of which sticks to various degrees to Ving Tsun concepts and follows the training methods preferred within their lineage. Degree of success of how each school's method translates into fighting varies largely.

The big difference with Western boxing is the lack of sparring and of realistic fight oriented progressive training.

Most schools cling to drills that lost their connection to actual fighting. The drills may look like being fighting related because they involve punches or blocks, but they don't translate into any useful real skill that works under pressure. When these schools venture out to sparring, it degenerates into either a chaotic mess (with no sense for balance, footwork, distance control, timing, punching power, etc.) or a harmless patting game (again with with no sense for balance, footwork, distance control, timing, punching power, etc.). Lots of people assume that they will be able to knock their opponent out based on their unrealistic training, and never realize that it takes actually a good amount of conditioning and punching training to have the tools to do so.

To me, Ving Tsun is authentic when it keeps the focus of everything linked to fighting while following the core concepts of Ving Tsun.

[CYMac]

Wingchun is not about red boat opera, it is about what "Ng Mui Si Tai", the original creator of wingchun, she passed it onto her student Yim Wing Chun and Yim Wingchun taught it to her hudsband who is a businessman, and the businessman Leung Bok Kam later named the style after his wife's name and there is the start of wingchun kuen. Red boat opera is much later....

[altbus1]

Hendrik- I don't know what your point is on this thread. You have your "history".

I do wing chun as I have learned from Augustine Fong, who learned from Ho Kam Ming who learned from IpMan. The principles are quite clear to me and consistent in the line that i have mentioned. Applications and effectiveness can vary with the practitioner.

Consistent principles passed on carefully person to person makes for authenticity in a kung fu system - not labels or typed words. And as is reasonable people have to validate their understanding by their application.

I listen to other folk's understandings.

What's the big deal about this thread?

joy chaudhuri
I'm a bit jealous, I would love to train with master Fong for 1 time.

[Hendrik]

Wingchun is not about red boat opera, it is about what "Ng Mui Si Tai", the original creator of wingchun, she passed it onto her student Yim Wing Chun and Yim Wingchun taught it to her hudsband who is a businessman, and the businessman Leung Bok Kam later named the style after his wife's name and there is the start of wingchun kuen. Red boat opera is much later....



1, The art Yim / Leong brought to the Red Boat is called Siu Lin Tau. ( not the siu lin tau set today. SLT/SNT today is just a partial and evolution short form. )

2, This art is not a creation of Ng Mui but a creation of Miu Shun based on Crane and Snake.

3, Wing Chun Kuen is an art of the Red Boat Opera people core on Siu Lin Tau and other art such as the pole....etc. depend on which lineage one is in.



Take the following three older Wing Chun lineages which could be tracked solid to the Red Boat.


This is the line from LJ to Chan Wah;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IEej1FpJwo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltGyg5GA1h8



This is YKS line
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVhRMzywe6Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGrLeLyEMkE&feature=related



This is one of Cho line
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLCTuRE4zC0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TmrXqvYDSI&feature=related


All of these lineages have the SLT core but other stuffs such as White Crane, CLF.. shao lin.etc. depend on the lineage.


So, there is no such thing as authenticity because Wing Chun means different things to different lineages.

[Vajramusti]

So, there is no such thing as authenticity because Wing Chun means different things to different lineages. (Hendrik)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is a strange meaning of authenticity.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

So, there is no such thing as authenticity because Wing Chun means different things to different lineages. (Hendrik)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is a strange meaning of authenticity.

joy chaudhuri



I think it might be better to say there is no ONE authentic WCK after the first generation of WCK in the Red Boat era.

[Vajramusti]

I think it might be better to say there is no ONE authentic WCK after the first generation of WCK in the Red Boat era.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are entitled to your opinion.

Mine is that those who taught Leung Jan (Leung Yee Tai and Wong Wah Bo) helped provide the basis of good wing chun via Leung Jan' synthesis. But the art keeps evolving--progressing in some hands, regressing in others. .. too hard or too soft.But I don't lecture anyone.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are entitled to your opinion.

Mine is that those who taught Leung Jan (Leung Yee Tai and Wong Wah Bo) helped provide the basis of good wing chun via Leung Jan' synthesis. But the art keeps evolving--progressing in some hands, regressing in others. .. too hard or too soft.But I don't lecture anyone.

joy chaudhuri



The thread is examine what are the facts of WCK instead of who is authentic.


It is not an opinion of mine, it is a reality ----- those youtubes from China above shows the evidents of No single authetic WCK --- different lineage different way.

[Vajramusti]

The thread is examine what are the facts of WCK instead of who is authentic.


It is not an opinion of mine, it is a reality ----- those youtubes from China above shows the evidents of No single authetic WCK --- different lineage different way.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik- you are "inferring" from watching videos and youtube shots-- all inferences.
Different people will infer different things-ergo opinions- not facts. There can be a 'reality' separate
from your inferences. You know the old Indian story of 9 blind men trying to define an elephant by touching. There is till an elephant in the room. It's not the tail, the trunk, the tusk or the feet etc.
Just repeating the word reality does not make it so.


joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

I see it much like Western boxing. There are many schools out there, each of which sticks to various degrees to Ving Tsun concepts and follows the training methods preferred within their lineage. Degree of success of how each school's method translates into fighting varies largely.

The big difference with Western boxing is the lack of sparring and of realistic fight oriented progressive training.

Most schools cling to drills that lost their connection to actual fighting. The drills may look like being fighting related because they involve punches or blocks, but they don't translate into any useful real skill that works under pressure. When these schools venture out to sparring, it degenerates into either a chaotic mess (with no sense for balance, footwork, distance control, timing, punching power, etc.) or a harmless patting game (again with with no sense for balance, footwork, distance control, timing, punching power, etc.). Lots of people assume that they will be able to knock their opponent out based on their unrealistic training, and never realize that it takes actually a good amount of conditioning and punching training to have the tools to do so.

To me, Ving Tsun is authentic when it keeps the focus of everything linked to fighting while following the core concepts of Ving Tsun.

I'm stealing this for my students.... :D

[GlennR]

This type of art is called Siu Lin Tau by the creator Miu Shun instead of Wing Chun kuen. and we know today, by DNA, Siu Lin Tau is an art which is the fusion of Fujian Crane and Emei snake.



Ahhhh, the old DNA Crane-snake agenda.

Once again "we" dont know..... that your opinion.

[GlennR]

The thread is examine what are the facts of WCK instead of who is authentic.


It is not an opinion of mine, it is a reality ----- those youtubes from China above shows the evidents of No single authetic WCK --- different lineage different way.



No, its not reality.... once again, its your opinion.

Saying it is doesnt make it so

[bennyvt]

as a great man once said, "I reject your reality and replace it with my own." jamie hineman (sp?)

[Runlikehell]

as a great man once said, "I reject your reality and replace it with my own." jamie hineman (sp?)

That was Adam Savage, wasn't it? (The other mythbusters guy).

True words though.

[YouKnowWho]

If you do your style just like your teacher did, you are no more than a good copy machine. You have no contributation to your style. If you add something that your style didn't have before to your style, you have contributation to your system. Whether your contributation is "enhancement" or "water down", only the future generation will be able to judge you long after your death.

Don't be a copy machine. Don't water down your system. Have contributation to your system is not easy. Whoever can bring the ground fighting skill into your TCMA style will earn your future recognition and that's for sure.

[Buddha_Fist]

I'm stealing this for my students.... :D

Glad to be of service! :)

[bennyvt]

sorry yeh it was him.

[Phil Redmond]

Glad to be of service! :)
Hey, it was a very good post. Thanks

[Niersun]

You harp on about too much B.S

Your posts are bad for Wing Chun because you and others like you write B.S that you cannot prove.

Fighting is Fighting, whether it be one style or another.

[Runlikehell]

sorry yeh it was him.

No worries, mate.

[Vajramusti]

You harp on about too much B.S

Your posts are bad for Wing Chun because you and others like you write B.S that you cannot prove.

If your looking for truth, then may i suggest you take up Christianity vs Islam and leave Fighting Skills and the MA to real people that train and not look to promote themselves with B.S articles and posts.

Fighting is Fighting, whether it be one style or another.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have already expressed disagreement with Hendrik on this thread... but I don't see what
Christianity v Islam has anything to do what Hendrik has said on this thread.

joy chaudhuri

[lance]

Hendrik- I don't know what your point is on this thread. You have your "history".

I do wing chun as I have learned from Augustine Fong, who learned from Ho Kam Ming who learned from IpMan. The principles are quite clear to me and consistent in the line that i have mentioned. Applications and effectiveness can vary with the practitioner.

Consistent principles passed on carefully person to person makes for authenticity in a kung fu system - not labels or typed words. And as is reasonable people have to validate their understanding by their application.

I listen to other folk's understandings.

What's the big deal about this thread?

joy chaudhuri

I have 2 - friends who are wing chun teachers , they also told me that Fong Sifu
also learned Choy Li Fut and Hung Gar , but I have no idea who fong sifu learned hung gar and choy li fut from though , but Fong Sifu is good though , pretty fast in chi sao , I don ' t know how often but in some place in the mainland there is a kung fu tournament and fong sifu always comes out with his assistant some times it ' s a women and some times it ' s guy . But he does the chi sao demo and he can trap your hands and strike you in the face and on the right and left side of
the jaw area with his hands , that ' s what he did to his assistant .

Although Ip Man had alot of students under him , as times went by for the students they each went on their own spreading the wing chun system , but bear in mind that each student who became sifus under Ip Man themselves . Also had their own ideas towards the wing chun art they learned from Ip Man individually .
In other words every wing chun teacher would have their own individual way of teaching wing chun , their hands techniques , forms , kicks , and the way they face their opponent , are all different from teacher to teacher in wing chun . So it really depends on who you are learning wing cjhun from , your sifu may have learned from Ip Man himself , but since you ' re learning under a sifu , it becomes your sifus version of wing chun .

[LoneTiger108]

Well, I see Wing Chun as a bit of a Pandoras Box ;)

If you have the correct key you can open and look inside, and then you may just get blown away with what you discover. It will change your life forever.

If you do not have the key you have to force the box open then there is no mystery but the simple construction of a box.

Some people will know exactly what I'm saying here (I hope)

To go on a lifelong journey to be told at the very end that the box you're searching for doesn't actually exist must be quite soul destroying, and unfortunately due to the nature of Chinese Martial Arts and how they have been transmitted to westerners in particular we are all in for a big disappointment! Didn't 'Kung Fu Panda' teach you anything??!!

At least if we can agree there is no one 'authentic' system or recipe held by any of the teachers presently out there or hidden today we can get on with our journey in acceptance of what we have. Authentic teachers, yes, but no one authentic system.

And what we actually have in Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun/Wing Tjun/Weng Chun/Yong Chun/Eng Chun/Vinh Xuan is a genuine Chinese Treasure :)

[LoneTiger108]

Sifu Sergios Latest clip shows a few things I can guarantee will just be alien to most western Wing Chun schools

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0dZjWVORA8

[anerlich]

I can guarantee will just be alien to most western Wing Chun schools


Just as well you didn't say "money-back guarantee". Some interesting stuff there, some weird as well, but hardly arcane or mind-blowing. I though Alex/duende's HFY demo he gave me was more profound than much of that.


Some people will know exactly what I'm saying here (I hope)

Pandora's box was a poor analogy to what it sounded like you were trying to say.

[KC Elbows]

I begin to question any argument that suggests that the problem that you see in the West regarding kung fu is not just as prevalent in China. The problem is that most of the people going to China to train are largely inexperienced when they go. If you go when you have experience, you'll see that it's the exact same. You'll turn away teachers.

If you've gone to China and not had to turn away teachers because they really don't know more than you, you are not an experienced martial artist.

If you've gone to China, and good people haven't shown respect to your knowledge, you are not an experienced martial artist.

Just my opinion.

[Hendrik]

Well, I see Wing Chun as a bit of a Pandoras Box ;)

If you have the correct key you can open and look inside, and then you may just get blown away with what you discover. It will change your life forever.

If you do not have the key you have to force the box open then there is no mystery but the simple construction of a box.

Some people will know exactly what I'm saying here (I hope)

To go on a lifelong journey to be told at the very end that the box you're searching for doesn't actually exist must be quite soul destroying, and unfortunately due to the nature of Chinese Martial Arts and how they have been transmitted to westerners in particular we are all in for a big disappointment! Didn't 'Kung Fu Panda' teach you anything??!!

At least if we can agree there is no one 'authentic' system or recipe held by any of the teachers presently out there or hidden today we can get on with our journey in acceptance of what we have. Authentic teachers, yes, but no one authentic system.

And what we actually have in Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun/Wing Tjun/Weng Chun/Yong Chun/Eng Chun/Vinh Xuan is a genuine Chinese Treasure :)


True. and Sergio did a good job presenting the big picture.

[anerlich]

I begin to question any argument that suggests that the problem that you see in the West regarding kung fu is not just as prevalent in China. The problem is that most of the people going to China to train are largely inexperienced when they go. If you go when you have experience, you'll see that it's the exact same. You'll turn away teachers.

If you've gone to China and not had to turn away teachers because they really don't know more than you, you are not an experienced martial artist.

If you've gone to China, and good people haven't shown respect to your knowledge, you are not an experienced martial artist.



I agree.

I went to HK, China and Taiwan in the early 1980s with one of the first Taiwan and HK accredited gwailo acupuncturists who was also a Taiji, Xingyi and Bagua instructor. I met Sun Lu-Tang's grandson and a few other practitioners of considerable repute. I really was looking for the sacred and profund, things I hadn't seen before, if it was there I was open to it.

While I was more into Xingyi and Bagua than Taiji at the time, I had a go at push hands with some students of a Taiwanese taiji master. With some minor advice from my own instructor, I found I could hold my own with nearly all the students, and they weren't taking it easy on me. The master was definitely much better than me, but hardly Yang Cheng-fu (or more accurately, what the legends about Yang Cheng-fu portray).

My current instructor and one of his classmates won their divisions in a KF tournament in HK in 1982 which included practitioners from all over Asia and Australia, America and Britain and was billed as a "World Championship".

I came away with the impression that there was nothing over there that I couldn't find back home, even back then. Also that the decades of the Cultural Revolution had ground down the standard of Kung Fu in China to an enormous extent. I regard the notion that it was bubbling along under the surface there all the time and all these hidden masters are now revealing their ubersecret stuff to the West with a great deal of scepticism. KF could only flourish outside the PRC during those decades IMO.

The only thing I saw that lasted with me was a middle-aged woman working out with Bagua hooked swords one early cold morning in People's Park, Shanghai. She was magnificent.

I literally spent decades paralleling Ouspensky's "Search for the Miraculous" in TCMA. My verdict? Not there, a fool's errand. The best practitioners, here and in the East, are practical, tough minded people for whom fighting skill is paramount. Sweat and pain are the only secrets.

The "spiritual" airheads in pyjamas preaching bunkum don't have their skills. I have to laugh at those kids on this forum telling me I haven't looked for authentic practitioners or refuse to look deep enough into TCMA.

The "Old China" some westerners, including some KFOWC forum members, seek, and even reside in, exists only in their fetid and uninformed imaginations.

[TenTigers]

as a great man once said, "I reject your reality and replace it with my own." jamie hineman (sp?)
yu sure it wasn't Salvador Dali?;)

[Hardwork108]

I literally spent decades paralleling Ouspensky's "Search for the Miraculous" in TCMA. My verdict? Not there, a fool's errand. The best practitioners, here and in the East, are practical, tough minded people for whom fighting skill is paramount. Sweat and pain are the only secrets.

You can "search" all you want, but if no one shows it to you, then you are in square one, so to speak. You can't just got to China and expect sifus to share all of their knowledge with you. Most of them don't even share their knowledge with their Chinese students....

[anerlich]

You can "search" all you want, but if no one shows it to you, then you are in square one, so to speak. You can't just got to China and expect sifus to share all of their knowledge with you. Most of them don't even share their knowledge with their Chinese students....


Thank you, Captain Obvious.

The problem was these guys had nothing to show. Like yourself, I suspect.

[Hardwork108]

They had nothing to show, nothing to tell. Like you.

Not to the likes of you, we don't.:D

[Hendrik]

I have a same type of experience for decades until I found some one who lead me into a different path.

Then, I understand why it is call Internal ; instead of it help me to fight. It give me the chance to understand how it works to transform body and mind.

Usually, most general cant get in because the two doors are extremely difficult to get in without persistance and correct instruction. that two doors are: loosing up the body and quit the mind.

Take an example of SLT/SNT ,how many in this world currently is practicing SLT/SNT? a millions may be? and how many within this millions of WCK practioner be able to enter the door? I would say may be 0.01% or less.


So, what is Loosing up the body?

in today's word, it can be precisely describe as a feeling of lower the density of every part of the body until it is as low as the air or feel like levitate in the air.

So, What is silence the mind means?

in today's word, it can be precisely describe as lowering the frequency of the thoughts to one thought and also lowering the intensity of the thoughts to extremely low. The ultimate goal is zero thought with zero thought intensity but awareness.



So, once the body feel like levitate or air low density or as it called the weight of One feather is excessive ; and the frequency and intensity of the thoughts going down toward one. Qi phenomenon must surface, that is a guarentee surface. and breathing naturally goes down to under 4 reps per minute. There, SLT/SNT is practice naturally without disturbing the above two prerequisite. Only then FLOW is possible. This is where the six directional force vectors balance itself naturally and the 20 channel of medirians flow in ease.


Take a look today, how many has attainted the kung fu to enter the two doors? With the way 99.99% of people practice the Sam bai fut / fok sau-wu sau section. we know 99.99% of these people is outside the two door above.


There is no magic but there are gate and gates one needs to enter in the process. if the body mind is not transform, then it default down to those who has better health, younger, faster, stronger will win.




While there is no such thing as ONE authentic WCK. there is such thing as ONE authentic entering into to the realm of internal via the two doors.


For health or for martial purpose, one needs to enter these doors to make it effective. that is the ONE authentic of TCMA. That is my experience and how magic started....


If you has enter to this basic level, please acknowledge. if you have not do not doubt, it is real and attainable for everyone.

Remember: Loose means lower the density of the physical. Silence means lower the frequency and intensity of your thoughts. experiment for yourself and see for yourself there is a world different then the usual physical one we know. The above are the description of the beginning of that state and that is where one's kung fu bring one. Mind, thinking, understanding, brute force will not get you there. only kung fu from the proper cultivation is the ticket to enter.




I agree.

I went to HK, China and Taiwan in the early 1980s with one of the first Taiwan and HK accredited gwailo acupuncturists who was also a Taiji, Xingyi and Bagua instructor. I met Sun Lu-Tang's grandson and a few other practitioners of considerable repute. I really was looking for the sacred and profund, things I hadn't seen before, if it was there I was open to it.

While I was more into Xingyi and Bagua than Taiji at the time, I had a go at push hands with some students of a Taiwanese taiji master. With some minor advice from my own instructor, I found I could hold my own with nearly all the students, and they weren't taking it easy on me. The master was definitely much better than me, but hardly Yang Cheng-fu (or more accurately, what the legends about Yang Cheng-fu portray).

My current instructor and one of his classmates won their divisions in a KF tournament in HK in 1982 which included practitioners from all over Asia and Australia, America and Britain and was billed as a "World Championship".

I came away with the impression that there was nothing over there that I couldn't find back home, even back then. Also that the decades of the Cultural Revolution had ground down the standard of Kung Fu in China to an enormous extent. I regard the notion that it was bubbling along under the surface there all the time and all these hidden masters are now revealing their ubersecret stuff to the West with a great deal of scepticism. KF could only flourish outside the PRC during those decades IMO.

The only thing I saw that lasted with me was a middle-aged woman working out with Bagua hooked swords one early cold morning in People's Park, Shanghai. She was magnificent.

I literally spent decades paralleling Ouspensky's "Search for the Miraculous" in TCMA. My verdict? Not there, a fool's errand. The best practitioners, here and in the East, are practical, tough minded people for whom fighting skill is paramount. Sweat and pain are the only secrets.

The "spiritual" airheads in pyjamas preaching bunkum don't have their skills. I have to laugh at those kids on this forum telling me I haven't looked for authentic practitioners or refuse to look deep enough into TCMA.

The "Old China" some westerners, including some KFOWC forum members, seek, and even reside in, exists only in their fetid and uninformed imaginations.

[anerlich]

I have a same type of experience for decades until I found some one who lead me into a different path.


I walked that path for some time, perhaps further than you. Sorry, but it goes goes nowhere other than into false pride and self deception.

[Hendrik]

I walked that path for some time, perhaps further than you. Sorry, but it goes goes nowhere other than into false pride and self deception.

I sure 1000% agree with you if I was not coach into a different realm and the ancient writing becomes alive...

Sure, most people are into false pride and self deception to safe face. But there are those who have the real thing to bring back their health in the survival situation call sick.

[anerlich]

I sure 1000% agree with you

I'm not seeking validation or agreement for my experience, thanks all the same.

[theo]

I sure 1000% agree with you if I was not coach into a different realm and the ancient writing becomes alive...

Sure, most people are into false pride and self deception to safe face. But there are those who have the real thing to bring back their health in the survival situation call sick.

letting Go and telling my mind to shut up was harder than i thought. something about needing/wanting to understand, make sense of things...mind tries to put things together by itself, maybe its the habit of trying to control. letting go isn't easy because we might fear doing so won't get us anywhere, it's hard to trust if we are not analyzing and thinking, things will just happen. we always want to know if we're doing something right or if it should be so and so. even when we think we're not, sometimes we still are. it's a gradual process...

[duende]

Just as well you didn't say "money-back guarantee". Some interesting stuff there, some weird as well, but hardly arcane or mind-blowing. I though Alex/duende's HFY demo he gave me was more profound than much of that.



Pandora's box was a poor analogy to what it sounded like you were trying to say.

Wow.. Thanks for the compliment Andrew.

I think before we all start glamorizing current mainland WC too much, that we need to remember the extreme damage that the cultural revolution and the Red Guard did to China, it's artists, and intellectuals.

Much of what was China's leaders in history, art, and science unfortunately faced horrible persecution and fled to other parts of the world.

Both Australia and the US are strong example of this.

Best.

[Hendrik]

letting Go and telling my mind to shut up was harder than i thought. something about needing/wanting to understand, make sense of things...mind tries to put things together by itself, maybe its the habit of trying to control. letting go isn't easy because we might fear doing so won't get us anywhere, it's hard to trust if we are not analyzing and thinking, things will just happen. we always want to know if we're doing something right or if it should be so and so. even when we think we're not, sometimes we still are. it's a gradual process...


Do this and try to see will it works.

sit in some where comfortatble.


1, thinking you are in front of this beautiful water fall fountain.
2, thinking the water flow down continously.
3, thinking the water flow slow down get less and less
4, thinking the water now instead of flow but drop down
5, thinking the rate of dropping slow down.
6, thinking the drop become one drop few second. ( now your thoughts frequency has cutting down from continous flow to a drop per few second.)
7, pay less attention to the dropping water just knowing/aware it is droping without thinking.
8, stay like this and you enter silence.

[theo]

Do this and try to see will it works.

sit in some where comfortatble.


1, thinking you are in front of this beautiful water fall fountain.
2, thinking the water flow down continously.
3, thinking the water flow slow down get less and less
4, thinking the water now instead of flow but drop down
5, thinking the rate of dropping slow down.
6, thinking the drop become one drop few second. ( now your thoughts frequency has cutting down from continous flow to a drop per few second.)
7, pay less attention to the dropping water just knowing/aware it is droping without thinking.
8, stay like this and you enter silence.

great idea, i will try that out.

i guess i was just making an observation based on my experiences entering the silence, that telling ur mind to shut up basically takes time to get used to. and then especially when doing the set, sometimes it really tries to process, grasp but then that gets in the way of being effortless and silence. so not only does one have to enter, but to stay in that state. eventually becoming able to enter and stay at will

[Hendrik]

great idea, i will try that out.

i guess i was just making an observation based on my experiences entering the silence, that telling ur mind to shut up basically takes time to get used to. and then especially when doing the set, sometimes it really tries to process, grasp but then that gets in the way of being effortless and silence. so not only does one have to enter, but to stay in that state. eventually becoming able to enter and stay at will

the mind doesnt know how to shut up. the more it try the harder it try the higher the frequency of thoughts and the higher the intensity and finally it becomes a chaotic stress. One cannot handle mind in mind level but need to go one level behind it to handle it. one needs to go to the awareness level.

So, as the above 8 steps, one is actually cheating the mind to let the mind produce less and less thoughts and then rest in the awareness where there is aware but no thoughts or very little thoughts. Unless one can get there, it is hopeless to handle mind under pressure. the Key to handle mind under pressure is to drop the thoughts. So if one doesnt have this type of training. under pressure, the mind goes into an opposite way and become a high intensity stress chaotic which is tunnel vision or blind.




That is the reason silence is not total concentration or total focusing.


Silence just means the thoughts frequency and intensity slow down; it is about the thoughts get less and less and less. That is Siu Niem or less and less thoughts come up.


Internal training
It is all about knowing what is it, the technics of how to attain it. nothing vodoo but one needs to know clearly what it is.


on the other hand, Qi will be drain once one get in the high intensity stress chaos tunner vision, the qi flow is in chaos and drain down ward if one has fear and stuck in the head or chest depend on the emotion. So if one cant get into silence one just lost it. so one got those cold hand, or hot face or stuffy chest.....etc


Siu Niem or less Thoughts, it is a training into silence to handle the body effective and efficiently. But look at the 99.99% doing SLT/SNT with all type forcefully doing it slowly, brute force, and dull high stress concentration, with the mind is dull and tunner vision plus the so called forward pressure and rigid body structure. That is just walking the opposite path. we know it and we know it doesnt work because it goes against mind-body nature but the 99.99% dont want to listen and admit they are wrong.

without these type of technology SLT/SNT is dead. Disregrd of how many hand technics one keep drilling it is useless with the brain dead or high stress high frequency mind.

There is no point to argue. the bottom line is can one drop the thoughts stream to a few thoughts per minute on no thought? that is the kung fu.

[Hardwork108]

I walked that path for some time, perhaps further than you. Sorry, but it goes goes nowhere other than into false pride and self deception.

Don't you discount the possibility that your "path" was merely a ride that you were taken on?

Do you really believe that you have seen it all?:rolleyes:

[LoneTiger108]

Pandora's box was a poor analogy to what it sounded like you were trying to say.

Okay. I see that you have outlined your own experience of kinda what I was suggesting, so it's good to learn more about you here. Shame that your trip to China was fruitless, and lacked in Wing Chun training too!

It seems as if I will never please you with any of my posts and it concerns me that you have a 'thing' about people that say Wing Chun can and does do things that your experience disagrees with. You have never learnt from within the family I orginate I suspect, as we all have our own experiences, but you sound like you have given up on the Wing Chun (?)

I can't help you there my friend. False pride and self deception is something I too have experience of, but I'm sure you have far more ;)

[Runlikehell]

Do this and try to see will it works.

sit in some where comfortatble.


1, thinking you are in front of this beautiful water fall fountain.
2, thinking the water flow down continously.
3, thinking the water flow slow down get less and less
4, thinking the water now instead of flow but drop down
5, thinking the rate of dropping slow down.
6, thinking the drop become one drop few second. ( now your thoughts frequency has cutting down from continous flow to a drop per few second.)
7, pay less attention to the dropping water just knowing/aware it is droping without thinking.
8, stay like this and you enter silence.

Thanks for this, Hendrik. Will try it myself.

[LoneTiger108]

Do this and try to see will it works.

sit in some where comfortatble.


1, thinking you are in front of this beautiful water fall fountain.
2, thinking the water flow down continously.
3, thinking the water flow slow down get less and less
4, thinking the water now instead of flow but drop down
5, thinking the rate of dropping slow down.
6, thinking the drop become one drop few second. ( now your thoughts frequency has cutting down from continous flow to a drop per few second.)
7, pay less attention to the dropping water just knowing/aware it is droping without thinking.
8, stay like this and you enter silence.

This is very similar to what Bruce Lee was experimenting with in the sixties! Good stuff but it has to have a purpose to it imho.

I was always under the impression that the drop represented the heart beat, and by being able to 'feel/listen' to your own heartbeat is the beginning of silence or Mogik / Wuji.

Then transfer this training into action. Hear yourself in battle, not the screams of the enemy falling at your feet! :D

[Wayfaring]

Not to the likes of you, we don't.:D

Yes, not all of us have the means to make a pilgrimage to your mom's basement.

[Hendrik]

Thanks for this, Hendrik. Will try it myself.


let me know. and also, if you do it when you get to waiting for the water drop to drop and slow down you will notice your awareness expanding while your inner mind chatting quiet down. That is the begining of silence.

See and tell me what you experience. it is worthed.

[Hendrik]

This is very similar to what Bruce Lee was experimenting with in the sixties! Good stuff but it has to have a purpose to it imho.




The purpose is one needs to get into this state of silence, knowing and be able to identify this silence state and then doing SLT/SNT based on this state of awareness.

That is called Using Silence to lead the action. The core of WCK.

it just takes 10 mins to test out and once for all one knows this state and can recognize this state.



One of the biggest problem in TCMA is one never recognize the state and speculate. That lead to the 99.99% of the SLT/SNT practioner stuck in a gargar land because nature is not going to follow anyone's speculation.


I was always under the impression that the drop represented the heart beat, and by being able to 'feel/listen' to your own heartbeat is the beginning of silence or Mogik / Wuji.

Then transfer this training into action. Hear yourself in battle, not the screams of the enemy falling at your feet! :D


impression is not good enough, it has to get to the point that anytime one called for silence one be able to enter. every time one does SLT/SNT one can enter.
Every time Stress/ pressure comes one knows and switch into silence.


Got nothing to do with winning the battle or war but let the body and mind reside in the center or middle or Chong.

without these type of technology one cant reside in the center because one doesnt know what is center and how to get there.


not to mention, entering into these two doors and STAY there quietly ; ( not doing anything) do extreme good to your physcal and mental health. it sets up to let your body and mind to repair and recover itself. Do it 20 mins a day before wake up while lying on bed and see for yourself what happen in 21 days. especially for those who is sick and weak , do it for 21 days and tell us your result.

The only caution needed are : 1, no sex 4 hours before and after this practice otherwise it drain your enery big time and screw up your nevous system. 2, after you finished the training , gradually come back by slowing rub your eyes area , face and move your body for a minutes or two. DONOT jump up that causes shock to your system which is no good.

[Hardwork108]

Yes, not all of us have the means to make a pilgrimage to your mom's basement.

And that is only the first step.:D

[anerlich]

Don't you discount the possibility that your "path" was merely a ride that you were taken on?

Do you really believe that you have seen it all?

That's the f*cking point, genius :rolleyes:! It WAS a ride I was taken on! The same one you're on now and for which Hendrik is selling tickets under false pretences! That's why I got off!

What I actually said was that I have seen KF in Australia every bit as good as anything I saw in the Orient and that going there for "deeper" learning would proablaby be a waste of time, though maybe interesting for non-KF reasons. I never said I'd seen it all.

Grammar: I think you meant something like: "CAN you discount the possibility...".

I haven't seen it all - I've seen much more than you, though that's nothing to crow about. I find your efforts to impress the impressionable, and lecture, ridiculous.

According to what you post here, your training, such as it is, has mostly been in Britain and South America, those famed Wing Chun epicentres, so you're hardly a pundit on KF in China, or anywhere else.

[anerlich]

Hear yourself in battle, not the screams of the enemy falling at your feet!

Bad idea. during training you can get away with a narrow internal focus, in fighting you need broad external focus.

"Concentrate only on striking the enemy" - Miyamoto Musashi (paraphrased).

[anerlich]

The only caution needed are : 1, no sex 4 hours before

I can't see that fitting into my schedule, then.

[Hardwork108]

I can't see that fitting into my schedule, then.

The solution would be for you to wear your kick boxing gloves and keep them on for five hours before you start. :D

[Hendrik]

One needs to enter the two doors because the Chinese doesnt design the SLT/SNT based on the Western Reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUb2LpCu_Pc&feature=relmfu


SLT is a different type of system which is in sync with cosmos but not the western reason way.



For the Chinese who doesnt understood this and keep using the Western reason to practice the Chinese creation, it is going to be stuck and get no where. Thus, the Qi will not surface the Jin cannot be generated because one trap in one's speculation instead of directly deal with the nature of the cosmos.




This is serious,

your reason blind you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuQL_9OS0uo&feature=relmfu


Thus, 99.99% of SLT practitioners cant enter into the flow as the ancestor of WCK in the red boat.


one must shift the gravity of that mind speculative reasoning enter the two doors and experience direct the nature of the cosmos.

[anerlich]

One needs to enter the two doors because the Chinese doesnt design the SLT/SNT based on the Western Reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUb2L...feature=relmfu




Unscientific new age rubbish. I can't watch those videos without doing a wallet check.

Turn off the Western Reason so you don't notice your bank balance and IQ decreasing.

[anerlich]

It seems as if I will never please you with any of my posts

You pleasing me shouldn't be on your agenda, its not on mine ... in any sense of the expression :eek:


and it concerns me that you have a 'thing' about people that say Wing Chun can and does do things that your experience disagrees with.

Your concern might affect you, it doesn't me.

107.5's views there are a whole lot less flexible and more dogmatic than mine, though it's debatable whether he has experience. He, I suggest, needs your concern a lot more than I.

If I have a 'thing', it's about people who spout obvious rubbish, or who pretend a position of knowledge or authority on a subject about which their subsequent discourse on the subject indicates they don't have or deserve. Not you, necessarily.

Well, and I do have a thing for statuesque Indian women ...


You have never learnt from within the family I orginate I suspect, as we all have our own experiences, but you sound like you have given up on the Wing Chun (?)

Will you stop it with this "family" sh*t already? And you're starting to worry me with this talk of pleasing me and "orgi-nating" ...

I've given up on certain aspects of TCMA dogma, and the notion that because it's TCMA, it has to be better in China than anywhere else. Have you made lengthy Chinese forays that provide evidence? Either way?

Most that claim to have found "it" are in the US (R Chu, T Niehoff), Britain (Alan Orr, yourself), Germany (Kevin, Graham, etc.), even 107.5 (Columbia via Britain and Brazil I think - he's on ignore most of the time). I mean no disrespect, well, except for 107.5.

No one studying in China with secret masters ... though maybe that's why the masters are secret :o


I can't help you there my friend.

Didn't ask for it, don't need it.


False pride and self deception is something I too have experience of, but I'm sure you have far more

You have cut me to the quick with your brilliant passive/aggressive repartee *yawn*

I'm just a guy who practices WC and BJJ and posts on this forum. I've experienced a fair bit, read a fair bit. My opinions aren't better than anyone else's, but they are sometimes strongly held. I enjoy arguing. Sue me.

[GlennR]

One needs to enter the two doors because the Chinese doesnt design the SLT/SNT based on the Western Reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUb2LpCu_Pc&feature=relmfu


SLT is a different type of system which is in sync with cosmos but not the western reason way.



For the Chinese who doesnt understood this and keep using the Western reason to practice the Chinese creation, it is going to be stuck and get no where. Thus, the Qi will not surface the Jin cannot be generated because one trap in one's speculation instead of directly deal with the nature of the cosmos.


Rubbish.............. condascending arrogant nonsensical rubbish



This is serious,

your reason blind you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuQL_9OS0uo&feature=relmfu


Thus, 99.99% of SLT practitioners cant enter into the flow as the ancestor of WCK in the red boat.


one must shift the gravity of that mind speculative reasoning enter the two doors and experience direct the nature of the cosmos.

Get yourself to a gym, work hard, have some succeses and failures and stop with this........ its pure fantasy

[wingchunIan]

this thread brilliantly sums up the world of Wing Chun without intending to
1) people quote their opinion as fact rather than a perspective
2) anyone who has a different view must be wrong and is insulted
3) rather than explore a dialogue, people instead choose to throw childish insults
4) anecdote and fables are passed off as fact or derided as fiction when infact no-one knows the truth.

[bennyvt]

been to china and HK and excep tfor a few schools I would rather train in Aus. I found there seemed to be an idea, more in china then HK that as they were chinese and trained in china, then they didn't have to train hard.

But I must say, hardwork99, that was the funniest thing I have read from you ever. I should sue you as I think some of my drink went on my laptop.:D:D:D

[anerlich]

this thread brilliantly sums up the world of Wing Chun without intending to
1) people quote their opinion as fact rather than a perspective
2) anyone who has a different view must be wrong and is insulted
3) rather than explore a dialogue, people instead choose to throw childish insults
4) anecdote and fables are passed off as fact or derided as fiction when infact no-one knows the truth.

5) someone uninvolved comes along and gives his $0.02 as some sort of penetrating insight, when he is in fact no better than any of those he feels superior to.

[LoneTiger108]

The purpose is one needs to get into this state of silence, knowing and be able to identify this silence state and then doing SLT/SNT based on this state of awareness.

That is called Using Silence to lead the action. The core of WCK.

There you have it. Your opinion that this is the core of WCK. It is not the core of everyone elses WCK, but I can see why you feel it is important.

I have the line: Yee Yi Ling Hei, Yi Hei San Ding

Do you have that? Because THAT IS from my WCK (hao) kuit. We used to talk endlessly about 'Lap Lim', and I feel that this is what you are attempting to discuss here. Chu Song Tin is famous for his early talks of Lap Lim and it's connection to SLT. THAT is WCK 101 and how to express it, not using comon Taichi like terms to throw at unsuspecting westerners imho. Not that you're unsuspecting, as you have done this for what seems like an age! ;)

And I disagree that this requires so much time to prepare. It IS for fighting. Bruce called it 'emotional content' and this has to be activated like a switch. There in an instant. And that is true Lap Lim, using the 'will' to lead the chi in an instant. No wasted movement or time. With little thought or effort.

Sounds like SLT to me :D ;)

[Wayfaring]

Well, and I do have a thing for statuesque Indian women ...


Speaking of authentic...

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=936052591838&id=48e7fca9db6632a2a479651dc7391be4&url=http%3a%2f%2f4.bp.blogspot.com%2f_ayXwBCdFASc% 2fSnulf-u_mdI%2fAAAAAAAAADs%2f2unRWfg4mEw%2fs400%2freshma% 2bshetty4.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

Speaking of authentic...

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=936052591838&id=48e7fca9db6632a2a479651dc7391be4&url=http%3a%2f%2f4.bp.blogspot.com%2f_ayXwBCdFASc% 2fSnulf-u_mdI%2fAAAAAAAAADs%2f2unRWfg4mEw%2fs400%2freshma% 2bshetty4.jpg

You don't have TEH REAL pic-fu, sorry:
http://bollywood-photos.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/aishwarya-rai.jpg

[Hardwork108]

But I must say, hardwork99, that was the funniest thing I have read from you ever. I should sue you as I think some of my drink went on my laptop.:D:D:D

"Hardwork99"? :confused:

But, please don't sue me. :eek:

You can use a small soft brush to clean in between the keys on your keyboard. You must be in a meditative state of mind, almost as if you were doing caligraphy, and remember, no sex for 2 hours before you start doing this. :D

[Hardwork108]

On a serious note. Hendrik does have a point. Certain TCMA and TCM approaches take the view that sexual activity effect us profoundly, and enough to effect physical and mental performance.

That is why for certain medical conditions a Traditional Chinese doctor will recommend slowing down your sexual activity in order for a given treatment to be effective.

The same is true for meditative and qigong practices, including those related to Kung fu practice.

So, since Wing Chun and kung fu in general are still TCMAs, then perhaps it is a good idea to try and understand these concepts, rather than outright ridiculing them in a world where most people have not really practiced TCMAs the way they were meant to.

PS. If anyone believes that most kung fu practioners in the world are practicing GENUINE kung fu, then please enlighten the rest of us.

[LoneTiger108]

On a serious note. Hendrik does have a point. Certain TCMA and TCM approaches take the view that sexual activity effect us profoundly, and enough to effect physical and mental performance.

Yep I agree! That's serious stuff right there!! Horrific, but serious! :D

In Cantonese, this is a treasure passed to us from Siulum (Shaolin). 3 treasures of martial performance to be precise, which are Sun (Spirit) Jing (Essence) and Hei (Energy).

All three things need BALANCE, not extremes of one or the other. Remember, if you haven't taken the Cha'an Oath you are NOT a Buddhist Shaolin Monk!! ;)

[Hendrik]

Certain TCMA and TCM approaches take the view that sexual activity effect us profoundly, and enough to effect physical and mental performance.



It is not a view. it is a truth. when one's body-mind has been transform or in the process of being transform to the high level of energy intensity. one will know Sex similar with fear disperse and drain the Kidney Qi down ward.

Sum Nung called his Qigong Kidney Qi return to its origin with a reason.
If the Kidney Qi is drain and disperse one's emotion is unstable one's mind is unstable. and one's body balance is unstable.

Now, some one will say, they can have sex and then go fight and they are good fighter....etc. Well, the based they rely on in those type of people is they are born with a stronger body and can effort to drain their qi with their emotion and sex. This is a drain type of things and sooner or later the body get weaker and they get weaker and lost their power in general.

The path with TCMA is to preserve and store every bit of energy at all time.

So, that is a different type of training path. SLT is not a drain type but a conserving type.





That is why for certain medical conditions a Traditional Chinese doctor will recommend slowing down your sexual activity in order for a given treatment to be effective.

That is the reason many sickness cannot be heal in modern western medicine. Because in general the western medicine take care of the sympton but not the root energy issue.

A good TCM is balancing the whole system.





The same is true for meditative and qigong practices, including those related to Kung fu practice.


SEx is a stimulus, it excite affect the brain and nervous system big time. the mind is shake out of its awareness state due to sex. that cause the energy cannot be conserved and make solid grow in the body.





So, since Wing Chun and kung fu in general are still TCMAs, then perhaps it is a good idea to try and understand these concepts, rather than outright ridiculing them in a world where most people have not really practiced TCMAs the way they were meant to.


The bottom line is if one is not be able to get into that two doors, there is no advance attainment in their SLT practice that is a fact. Their body-mind is going down sharply with aging of their body.

[Hendrik]

There you have it. Your opinion that this is the core of WCK. It is not the core of everyone elses WCK, but I can see why you feel it is important.

I have the line: Yee Yi Ling Hei, Yi Hei San Ding

Do you have that? Because THAT IS from my WCK (hao) kuit.


We used to talk endlessly about 'Lap Lim', and I feel that this is what you are attempting to discuss here. Chu Song Tin is famous for his early talks of Lap Lim and it's connection to SLT.

THAT is WCK 101 and how to express it, not using comon Taichi like terms to throw at unsuspecting westerners

imho. Not that you're unsuspecting, as you have done this for what seems like an age! ;)





anyone can argue anything they like to. and using any words or term.....etc.

However, if one doesnt recognized and cant enter that two doors. it is a fact one doesnt have any deep SLT cultivation.

The reason 99.99% of SLT/SNT practioner missed it because they think they know but they dont.




And I disagree that this requires so much time to prepare.

It IS for fighting. Bruce called it 'emotional content' and this has to be activated like a switch. There in an instant.

And that is true Lap Lim, using the 'will' to lead the chi in an instant. No wasted movement or time. With little thought or effort.

Sounds like SLT to me :D ;)


Sure, those who has cultivated it just take a split of second to enter the state at will.

However,
how long or how many decades have we practice SLT/SNT?

and can we even enter the two doors with 1 hour of preparation ? if one doesnt even recognize the state then it is not likely one can enter.

Also, all these "Will.... Lap Lim ... Chi.... emotional content' are just nice talk without content.


without entering the two doors. Lap Lim is just a "dull stress forcefull intention with Tunner vision". and There is no Chi handling.

So, the basic of the basic, enter the two doors . Otherwise, it is selling snake oil.



One very interesting phenomenon here is most of the people here is resist the two doors - the basic of the basic of "soft/Internal" TCMA big time. that shows how the mind set of " resisting just forsake of resisting" in fact, one doesnt even know what it is but keep resisting with all the reasons which is false at all. Why it is a false reason? because all these people who resist and reason the opposite doesnt even know the two doors and have never ever enter or train in it. That shows how far they have walked the path or train in TCMA SLT/SNT. in fact, they might train in sport, fighting....etc but they never have a proper training in TCMS SLT/SNT WCK. That is a fact.

So again, there is NO one authentic WCK. But there is ONE authentic TCMA SLT/SNT training universal basic and that is enter the two doors for mind-body cultivation basic.

[trubblman]

Look deep into the Dna of Wing Chun kuen,


1,

There is no such thing as authentic Wing Chun ...



When it comes to Chinese lore concerning Wing Chun the best response is...

[LoneTiger108]

So again, there is NO one authentic WCK. But there is ONE authentic TCMA SLT/SNT training universal basic and that is enter the two doors for mind-body cultivation basic.

And you're still propogating that you have entered these 2 doors without taking into account others may have too. And to be fair, I have never even seen you 'move' Hendrik, so I will always treat whatever you say as 'selling snake oil'! Maybe you're someone who has had all the access to the knowledge in the World, but really can't do much with it? I know plenty who 'see it' but can not 'do it' and there's nothing wrong in that until you start trying to tell others that have done it that they are 'wrong'.

Although in your defense, I do like and appreciate what you're trying to say here, even if (again!) you just seem to come across as the one ignorant of others experience and research. Your own Taichi and Cho Ga experience is unique to you, but to most it's just another foreign experience. Wing Chun does not require Taichi or Cho Ga to work imho. In fact, it may even be the opposite! ;)

FWIW My SLT body was enlightened after less than 6 months, at the beginning of my Wing Chun training in 1994. That's only 18 years I know, a baby compared to others here, but it's enough to understand what it is I train, according to my own Sifus learning and that of Lee Shing. And I still trust my Sifu (sometimes!) and we're quite close actually.

And no, I aint claiming to be authentic, nor original, just well versed and happy with what I do and have done! :)

[Buddha_Fist]

Unscientific new age rubbish. I can't watch those videos without doing a wallet check.

Turn off the Western Reason so you don't notice your bank balance and IQ decreasing.

Amen to that!

[Hendrik]

And you're still propogating that you have entered these 2 doors without taking into account others may have too.

What I say is everyone needs to enter these 2 doors to get into the art. no more no less.

The rest is your opinions.




And to be fair, I have never even seen you 'move' Hendrik, so I will always treat whatever you say as 'selling snake oil'!


Maybe you're someone who has had all the access to the knowledge in the World, but really can't do much with it?




How you want to think or act is fine with me.





I know plenty who 'see it' but can not 'do it' and there's nothing wrong in that until you start trying to tell others that have done it that they are 'wrong'.


That is your view, that is fine with me.

BTW.

I share technology, its description, and the process steps in this forum so people can try out for themselve if they like to test out.

some might take 30 mins to experiment with it and know what it is. some might take a life time to argue with me but never know what I am talking about.





Although in your defense, I do like and appreciate what you're trying to say here, even if (again!) you just seem to come across as the one ignorant of others experience and research. Your own Taichi and Cho Ga experience is unique to you, but to most it's just another foreign experience. Wing Chun does not require Taichi or Cho Ga to work imho. In fact, it may even be the opposite! ;)

You obviously dont read my post clearly.






FWIW My SLT body was enlightened after less than 6 months, at the beginning of my Wing Chun training in 1994.

That's only 18 years I know, a baby compared to others here, but it's enough to understand what it is I train, according to my own Sifus learning and that of Lee Shing.

And I still trust my Sifu (sometimes!) and we're quite close actually.


Great.
But that doesnt say anything on capability of entering the two basic doors, isnt it?


These type of issues are very common in TCMA in my experience. Thus, for me, it is very difficult to discuss because we all have ego and want to safe face and will do anything to hurt others or discredit others to defend ourself.


and the result of our toxic mind is that the art die because we actually dont know what is going on beside of those name dropping, family loyalty, depending face, ego boosting.


Bottom line is :

cant enter the door of low density will not get to the door of silence, cant get to the door of silence will not get to the door of Qi evoking, and cannot get to the door of qi evoking will not be able to direct the flow of the qi, will then have problem in directing the Jin or power. Those are the step by steps requirements.

and we know where do we stand in front of these step by step reality, no one can cheat which step one has reached or not even start the first step.

as for who can do it or who cannot do it. that is not that important because we are discussing art now not who is better.

it is not an easy topic to discuss .





And no, I aint claiming to be authentic, nor original, just well versed and happy with what I do and have done! :)


Your view and what you feel happy is fine with me.

[Hardwork108]

It is not a view. it is a truth.

I agree.









That is the reason many sickness cannot be heal in modern western medicine. Because in general the western medicine take care of the sympton but not the root energy issue.

And sometimes Western medicine takes care of the symptoms, but creates other symptoms at a later date.


A good TCM is balancing the whole system.

And I believe that good TCMA practice will balance the whole system as well.:)

[Hardwork108]

When it comes to Chinese lore concerning Wing Chun the best response is...

This has nothing to do with some fantasy religion. It has to do with science, albeit a different science to that of what most Westerners are used to.

[Hendrik]

This has nothing to do with some fantasy religion. It has to do with science, albeit a different science to that of what most Westerners are used to.

it is similar to analytical view and systemic view. The Chinese is using Systemic concept while the modern western is using analytical.


Using analytical view to practice the SLT which is design with Systemic concept will not get anything out intended for systemic result.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't know about you guys but I feel confused when a discussion is mixed with "combat", "health", "performance", and "spiritual development". I try to stay away from "health", "performance", and "spiritual development" discussion as much as possible but I truly don't know the purpose of this thread. Is this thread for "combat" or "something else"?

Do we truly need to "enter these 2 doors" to be a good fighter?

I have never heard that anybody talk about

- "authentic longfist",
- "authentic mantis",
- "authentic Baji",
- "authentic Zimen",
- ...

Why is such important about "authertic"?

[Hendrik]

Do we truly need to "enter these 2 doors" to be a good fighter?




Yes.
that is the entering of cultivating Varja mind and Varja body.


People like Wang Xiang Zai or Sun Lo Dang or Chen Jin of Chen Taiji and those class of people has to enter these two doors.


Even in Baji, these two doors has to be enter otherwise one cant do the following

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xt-W24E7As



These two doors is the core of the core of TCMA. without it, it is hopeless for small to defeat big. weak to defeat strong. not to mention to heal and recovered one's body when it is injured. But then no one want to talk about it. Thus, it results into the lost of SLT practice and make SLT useless. one spend an hour or two for years every day on these stuffs for four or five years to develop these.

[GlennR]

Yes.
that is the entering of cultivating Varja mind and Varja body.


People like Wang Xiang Zai or Sun Lo Dang or Chen Jin of Chen Taiji and those class of people has to enter these two doors.


Even in Baji, these two doors has to be enter otherwise one cant do the following

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xt-W24E7As



These two doors is the core of the core of TCMA. without it, it is hopeless for small to defeat big. weak to defeat strong. not to mention to heal and recovered one's body when it is injured. But then no one want to talk about it. Thus, it results into the lost of SLT practice and make SLT useless. one spend an hour or two for years every day on these stuffs for four or five years to develop these.

please....... the mute button.... somebody hit the mute button!!

[YouKnowWho]

without it, it is hopeless for small to defeat big. weak to defeat strong.

This is the part that you and I don't agree with each other. I don't want to be "small" and I don't want to be "weak". I want my students to be strong and act as tiger and eat their opponent's alive. Old Chinese saying said, "If you don't want to get hit then start to hit your opponent". the moment that you play aggressive and put your opponent in 100% defense, the moment that you will be safter.

Again by mixing "health" and "combat", it just confuses the discussion. Because "health" can violate all general "combat" guideline and there won't be any meaningful discussion after that. When one person talks about a punch to his opponent's head, while another person talks about how to make Qi to flow through his body, it will be just like a chicken talks to a duck, both persons will just miss each other.

If "health" is the only thing that you want to discuss in this thread then I may just keep my mouth shut.

[Hendrik]

This is the part that you and I don't agree with each other.

I don't want to be "small" and I don't want to be "weak". I want my students to be strong and act as tiger and eat their opponent's alive.

Old Chinese saying said, "If you don't want to get hit then start to hit your opponent".

the moment that you play aggressive and put your opponent in 100% defense, the moment that you will be safter.


I have no disagreement with anyone.

My experience and reality is if I was not shown these stuffs, I would have nothing to compensate for my born physical weakness.

It is not as simple as you dont want to get hit then start to hit your opponent.

For me, the real thing is could generate momentum and dynamic structure within split of second. and Without entering the two doors ; when facing a physically strong opponent one has no chance to even exchange strike or generate something could damage /penetrate the opponent.


There is nothing to do with aggresive or defensive. It is all about how quick one can draw one's gun and how powerful that gun is.

and if one rely on nature born muscle, most of the time an oriental will never be able to defeat a bigger nature non oriental or the smaller size or the one who is aging always lost.











Again by mixing "health" and "combat", it just confuses the discussion. Because "health" can violate all general "combat" guideline and there won't be any meaningful discussion after that.


All advance TCMA has no seperation between health and combat. Chinese Dont want to talk about combat explicitly because showing off is not the bottom line of Chinese culture.

without health and strong internal organs how can one be good in combat? No way.





When one person talks about a punch to his opponent's head, while another person talks about how to make Qi to flow through his body, it will be just like a chicken talks to a duck, both persons will just miss each other.


That is because you have never expose to real and advance TCMA.





If "health" is the only thing that you want to discuss in this thread then I may just keep my mouth shut.

You dont have to keep your mouth shut but you need to open you eyes and open your mind and do some real research.

[YouKnowWho]

That is because you have never expose to real and advance TCMA.

By saying that, you have just implied that I don't understand the real and advance TCMA. You have also implied that my teacher is not real and advance. Can you see what I'm trying to point it out to you? You may not realize yourself that the way you expressed your opinion just offend others big time.

You should not put others down just because they don't agree with you. I have realized that this just happen too often in your threads. I'll never say that you don't understand "combat" because I have never met you in person. If you respect others, others will respect you as well.


you need to open you eyes and open your mind and do some real research.
I have no interest in "health only" discussion.

Both "you have never ..." and "you need to ..." are not very friendly in discussion. Hope you realize that (I'll never say, "You need to realize that").

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
That is because you have never expose to real and advance TCMA.

By saying that, you have just implied that I don't understand the real and advance TCMA. You have also implied that my teacher is not real and advance. Can you see what I'm trying to point it out to you? You may not realize yourself that the way you expressed your opinion just offend others big time.

You should not put others down just because they don't agree with you. I have realized that this just happen too often in your threads. I'll never say that you don't understand "combat" because I have never met you in person. If you respect others, others will respect you as well.


For me,
anyone who know advance real TCMA will not post as you have post. How can a person who know real and advance TCMA doesnt know about Qi relationship, and that two doors?


So what am I suppose to say?

As for your teacher, you are not equal to your teacher. so stop pull your teacher in.







Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
you need to open you eyes and open your mind and do some real research.
I have no interest in "health only" discussion.

Both "you have never ..." and "you need to ..." are not very friendly in discussion. Hope you realize that (I'll never say, "You need to realize that").


You obviously dont comprehend my previous post.
Why make life so complex?




I am sorry my straight forward in technology expression doesnt taking the consideration of your sensitive.

in that angle, I have room to learn and improve because people like you may be is interested in social chat rather then straight technical discussion.

if you are not interested in straight technical talk and expecting sensitive caring chat; please ignore my post because my intention is technical only ; and have much less caring for giving face social chat type.

There are much much much worse intentional personal attack / insulting posts toward me in this thread and I choose to ignore them instead of being sensitive. how is that compare with the comon straight talk toward you in my post? I hope you see that too.

[YouKnowWho]

if you are not interested in straight technical talk and expecting sensitive caring chat; please ignore my post because my intention is technical only ; and have much less caring for giving face social chat type.

There are much much much worse intentional personal attack / insulting posts toward me in this thread and I choose to ignore them instead of being sensitive. how is that compare with the comon straight talk toward you in my post? I hope you see that too.

There is nothing more for me to say. I try to stay away from negative energy. If I have nothing better to say, I'll keep my mouth shut.


As for your teacher, you are not equal to your teacher. so stop pull your teacher in.
I'll never compare myself to my teacher, but why do you want to say that to someone you have never met?

[Hendrik]

I have never posted any personal attack/insulting on you. There is no need to redirect your negative energy toward me.



My post is simply saying

I could be more considerate on your sensitive and you could be less sensitive.

I like to be nice because everyone always has the room to grow to be better. But nice is a two way street.







I don't think your intention is "technique only".



I say technology that is very different then your "technique only'. so please dont twist my word.







When was the last time that you post any youtube clips about your

- snake engine?
- 6 direction force vector?
- 2 doors?
I'm very interested to see your "personal" clips if you don't mind to show us.


Snake enginee, 6 direction force vectors and 2 doors are all in this youtube fully explain since years ago. any one who knows the topic could identify them.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g



BTW.
Where is your Taichi set demonstration you say you going to post months ago?

[Hendrik]

I'll never compare myself to my teacher, but why do you want to say that to someone you have never met?




1,
you post the following.




By saying that, you have just implied that I don't understand the real and advance TCMA. You have also implied that my teacher is not real and advance. Can you see what I'm trying to point it out to you? You may not realize yourself that the way you expressed your opinion just offend others big time.


why do you brought your teacher in the above post?



2,
and my reply to your post is



Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
As for your teacher, you are not equal to your teacher. so stop pull your teacher in.

meaning it is a simple direct explicit comment I made on your understanding of TCMA what is that got to do with your teacher and all the implication?

and now you are posting as I am the person bringing you teacher in.




why make life so complex and travelling off topic?



I have to say I am sorry, this is my last reply to you. you are thinking in a different frequency and I feel drain into off topic and wasting my energy . Thanks for the chat. Good luck.

[YouKnowWho]

BTW.
Where is your Taichi set demonstration you say you going to post months ago?
Don't remember I said that but here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BIZIbTstV4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI2Q052kuBA

[Hendrik]

Don't remember I said that but here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BIZIbTstV4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI2Q052kuBA



Thanks for the clips.

[YouKnowWho]

That is because you have never expose to real and advance TCMA.

I have never exposed to real and advance TCMA &
I have exposed to my teacher
-> my teacher is not real and advance.

[Hendrik]

I have never exposed to real and advance TCMA &
I have exposed to my teacher
-> my teacher is not real and advance.



Ok. That is your logic.




We sure are different.

My experience,

I am a student of the late Chan Patriach Hsuan Hua and I am a follower of the late Ma Li-Tang the internal TCMA expert in China.

However,
I am clueless on advance level cultivation of Chan and internal TCMA of my teachers. That is because my low level kung fu not allow me to understand the state they are in.

and it got nothing todo with my teacher is not real and advance because of my lack of kung fu cultivation.


So, it got nothing todo with who is my sifus, it got all to do with do I have the Kung fu to grasp what it is. I can be living with my sifus 24/7/365 days and still clueless.

and

when others told me I dont know what i am talking, I ask what is it and verify it, instead of get sensitive, demand respect, and bring up my sifus which got nothing to do with the subject but a off mark for something else to gain control.


That is me. and sure we are different. I see your point and accept/ approve of it.

you are right, as a human we all love to be respect. to always care and respect others is sure a good thing and improve communication, I sure can learn alots to improve myself. however, that is second and third order which doesnt replace the core topic on advance tcma and chasing the respect will become off topic.




So, let's get back to the topic,
share with us what is advance TCMA on the topic of how fa jin, Qi, mind, structure ..... etc link together in a systeminc view?

[YouKnowWho]

as a human we all love to be respect.
Try to share information to those who does not appreciate (unless you have a business reason) is like to "use your hot face to touch someone's cold ass". It has nothing to do with other's respect but whether you respect yourself or not.

If it's fun, play, otherwise, don't.


So, let's get back to the topic,
share with us what is advance TCMA on the topic of how fa jin, Qi, mind, structure ..... etc link together in a systeminc view?

The Fa Jin, Qi, mind, structure, ... have no interest to me at this point of my life. To me, it's BTDT. I only interest in how to do a good "integration" job for my kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground game. In other words, I'm more interesting to be a good Snashou/Sanda coach. Oneday I don't mind to be a MMA coach after I have enough knowledge in the ground game area.

Someone told me that there are 3 persons in US who can show me how to use Qi in combat (you may be the 4th person ;)). I told that person that I'll be more interested to meet someone who can show me a new method to counter a "head lock" instead.

You can see that in almost all my posts, I strongly encourage people to step outside of their
area, meet other people, and "cross train". The word "style" has no meaning to me.

[Dragonzbane76]

I strongly encourage people to step outside of their
area, meet other people, and "cross train". The word "style" has no meaning to me.

My very thoughts as well. Very similar way of looking at things. :)

[Hendrik]

The Fa Jin, Qi, mind, structure, ... have no interest to me at this point of my life. To me, it's BTDT.


what is a BTDT?





I only interest in how to do a good "integration" job for my kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground game. In other words, I'm more interesting to be a good Snashou/Sanda coach. Oneday I don't mind to be a MMA coach after I have enough knowledge in the ground game area.


how old are you?





Someone told me that there are 3 persons in US who can show me how to use Qi in combat (you may be the 4th person ;)).

Who doesnt use Qi in combat?





I told that person that I'll be more interested to meet someone who can show me a new method to counter a "head lock" instead.

You can see that in almost all my posts, I strongly encourage people to step outside of their
area, meet other people, and "cross train". The word "style" has no meaning to me.


Seems like you just interested in Chatting and get social and doing some MMA instead of investigating what is advance TCMA.

and that is fine with me.

[anerlich]

That is the reason many sickness cannot be heal in modern western medicine. Because in general the western medicine take care of the sympton but not the root energy issue.

A good TCM is balancing the whole system.



What stats is this assertion based on? What studies back it up?

How successful has TCM been against pancreatic cancer? Brain tumours? Schizophrenia? And OK, just for fun, erectile disfunction?

[YouKnowWho]

- what is a BTDT?

Been there done that. I had cross trained the 字门(Zime) system just to learn the advance TCMA - "点穴(Dian Xue) - pressure point attack" skill.

- how old are you?

I'll get my medicare card this year. :(

- advance TCMA.

If you can use your skill in combat, a simple punch to the face is "advance". If you can't use your skill in combat, even you can make you Qi to circle through 小周天(Xiao Chou Tien) or 大周天(Da Chou Tien), you are still "low" level. That's the way I look at TCMA anyway.

I know you are interesting in power generation (snake engine, 6 direction vector force, 2 doors, ...). I'm interesting in "problem solving - how to find the right key to open a certain lock".

[theo]

- what is a BTDT?

Been there done that. I had cross trained the 字门(Zime) system just to learn the advance TCMA - "点穴(Dian Xue) - pressure point attack" skill.

- how old are you?

I'll get my medicare card this year. :(

- advance TCMA.

If you can use your skill in combat, a simple punch to the face is "advance". If you can't use your skill in combat, even you can make you Qi to circle through 小周天(Xiao Chou Tien) or 大周天(Da Chou Tien), you are still "low" level. That's the way I look at TCMA anyway.

I know you are interesting in power generation (snake engine, 6 direction vector force, 2 doors, ...). I'm interesting in "problem solving - how to find the right key to open a certain lock".

what is the "integration" you are referring to? it sounds like you have moved above and beyond TCMA jin,qi,mind,structure into this "integration" concept. or maybe i misunderstood you to say that you tried it but it didn't work for you or you didn't see how it might be useful/used. as for integration when doing a punch or kick...i'm not sure what could be more "integrated" in the body to deliver energy than fa-jin, when done correctly.

any punch/kick/energy release done according to TCMA will involve the qi, mind, structure, jin etc. wck is a TCMA, so if you're going to do wck, you're doing TCMA. which means qi, mind, jin etc

if we're going to be advanced wck players, then these details must be understood. if you have BTDT, then could you please share your understanding of what hendrik asked? its always great to hear other peoples thinking on the subject and i could always learn some more myself.

what specific problems are you trying to solve?

[YouKnowWho]

what could be more "integrated" in the body to deliver energy than fa-jin, when done correctly.
Fajin is like to build a WMD. To deliver that WMD, it requires:

1. 時間(Shi Jian) - timing,
2. 機会(Ji Hui) - opportunity
3. 角度(Jiao Du) - angle
4. 力的使用(Li De Shi Yong) - Fajin
5. 平衡(Ping Heng) - balance

Fajin is only 1/5 of the combat requirement.

Combat is 2 person art and not just solo training. The integration of kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground skill is more important than just Fajin.

In order to solve a problem (such as wrestler's single leg, BJJ's pull guard, ...), we have to understand that problem first. That takes time and effort. We only have limited amout of life time and we can't do everything. If we are more interested in the big picture, sometime we just have to do the best we can in certain area (such as Fajin) and move on.

[LoneTiger108]

My experience,

I am a student of the late Chan Patriach Hsuan Hua and I am a follower of the late Ma Li-Tang the internal TCMA expert in China.

:) You know it sure does help weigh up your contributions to this forum Hendrik when you're honest about your studies. Maybe these two gentlemen are your latest research, because neither practise Wing Chun do they?

In fact, this thread would be more suited for the Tai Chi Forum as it seems it is directed at 'insulting' Wing Chun practitioners more so than helping anyone of us here. Just my opinon, but I would like to see how you use this knowledge in your SLT. Just once, upload a clip of you practising Wing Chun and I might listen/read more carefully but for now you have lost my attention :cool: :o

[Hendrik]

:) You know it sure does help weigh up your contributions to this forum Hendrik when you're honest about your studies. Maybe these two gentlemen are your latest research, because neither practise Wing Chun do they?

In fact, this thread would be more suited for the Tai Chi Forum as it seems it is directed at 'insulting' Wing Chun practitioners more so than helping anyone of us here. Just my opinon, but I would like to see how you use this knowledge in your SLT. Just once, upload a clip of you practising Wing Chun and I might listen/read more carefully but for now you have lost my attention :cool: :o


I really love your post.

You remind me of those self-rigtheous hero in the Shaws brothers martial art movies.


I particular like one movie, it is called blade.

in it the hero said " some times, I see something which I dont think it is right and so I go out to help the world and the people.
but the next day when I wake up. I realize the whole world is right including the wrong doing person which I judge and accuse. and the only wrong person is me myself."



Are you sure your accusation and judgement towards me is correct? Find out more before making up judgement is a way to avoid mistake and looking foolish.

[Hendrik]

- what is a BTDT?

Been there done that. I had cross trained the 字门(Zime) system just to learn the advance TCMA - "点穴(Dian Xue) - pressure point attack" skill.

- how old are you?

I'll get my medicare card this year. :(

- advance TCMA.

If you can use your skill in combat, a simple punch to the face is "advance". If you can't use your skill in combat, even you can make you Qi to circle through 小周天(Xiao Chou Tien) or 大周天(Da Chou Tien), you are still "low" level. That's the way I look at TCMA anyway.

I know you are interesting in power generation (snake engine, 6 direction vector force, 2 doors, ...). I'm interesting in "problem solving - how to find the right key to open a certain lock".


For understand you better purpose,

1, Could you share what is "点穴(Dian Xue) and why it is advance TCMA?

2, Could you please share what is 小周天(Xiao Chou Tien) or 大周天(Da Chou Tien) have you done it?

[Hendrik]

Fajin is like to build a WMD. To deliver that WMD, it requires:

1. 時間(Shi Jian) - timing,
2. 機会(Ji Hui) - opportunity
3. 角度(Jiao Du) - angle
4. 力的使用(Li De Shi Yong) - Fajin
5. 平衡(Ping Heng) - balance

Fajin is only 1/5 of the combat requirement.

Combat is 2 person art and not just solo training. The integration of kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground skill is more important than just Fajin.

In order to solve a problem (such as wrestler's single leg, BJJ's pull guard, ...), we have to understand that problem first. That takes time and effort. We only have limited amout of life time and we can't do everything. If we are more interested in the big picture, sometime we just have to do the best we can in certain area (such as Fajin) and move on.


1,
What is WMD?

2, What is Fajin?

3, The above is your view.

For me, in my understanding of ancient advance TCMA,
Fajin is the system power management/ power/momentum generation platform.
So, your 1 to 5 above is making an assumption on you have a power generation platform which could support your needs or different needs.

Your hindden assumption can be analogy to one learn how to drive an automatic shift city car and assume everything is the same instead of knowing in reality, there are stick shift, automatic, two wheel drive, four wheel drive, ice condition drive, anti-break, pumping break....etc.


Without clearly know the power generation, application technics variety are great but every technics is a power generation dependable. so in stead of Fa jin is the 1/5. Fa Jin is the based of everything.


Thus, your handling such as the following is problematic

If we are more interested in the big picture, sometime we just have to do the best we can in certain area (such as Fajin) and move on

because there is no such thing on " we just have to do the best we can in the certain area (such as Fajin) and move on."

One cant move if the power generation platform surge. and knowing not the characteristics and handling of the power generation platform is a kiss of death because the same technics always has a power generation platform dependency.

and

Advance TCMA is dealing with these power surge.

We can read in the advance TCMA records that
Wang Xiang-Zai the creator of Yee Chuan defeat the Japanese Olympic player or Sun Lu-Dang defeat the Judo players who pin him by power generation handling at contact not another application technics or secret or special move.



Thus, the fight in advance TCMA is not explicit technics or secret move but Power generation platform handing. Those who can handle the power platform and surge it win. that is what it is called beyond explicit shape and small move is better then big move, no move is better then small move.






Saying the above, I see your point and your point is perfect legitimate for any one who do western type of sport or external art such as SC which assume one has the same power and assume every one has the same power. However, in the real world that is not the case, power different person to person, sex, age, shape....etc.





Why is the two doors, 20 ch, 6 DFV, and snake engine are important? because that is the basic of power /momentum handling. that is just the basic, one can call it in different names or term but those stuffs describe power/momentum generation in the physical world. with it one is not guarentee to win. without it one is quarentee to get stuck.






For traditional ancient chinese,

As for Qi, Qi is just an intemidiate manifestation before the physical.
creation or manifestration begin from setting an intention, then the flow of Qi, then the formation of physical.


So, the Chinese is handling lots of physical in the Qi level because that is much easier to handle changes before the formation of physical. There is nothing myterious. Qi is just pre-physical formation reality.


However, if one doesnt have the training and knowing not the existance of this pre-physical formation, one will not be able to know what is it and use it.

and also,

not everything could be handle in the pre-physical formation level. some needs to be handle in the physical level and some needs to be handle in the mind level. and some needs to be handle the same time in all level to get result.



Be able to go these far in understanding and handling, I call that advance TCMA. otherwise it is driving in autopilot, like driving a city commute car with city speed, there is not much advance in it.


In my understanding,
Advance TCMA is a systemic, meaning the player, the opponent, the power generation, the timing, the structure, the guidance system...... all are considered at once to satisfy law of physic/cosmos instead of human reasoning and no assumption is made.

[YouKnowWho]

1, Could you share what is "点穴(Dian Xue) and why it is advance TCMA?

2, Could you please share what is 小周天(Xiao Chou Tien) or 大周天(Da Chou Tien) have you done it?

1,What is WMD?

2, What is Fajin?

WMD = weapon of maximun destruction. The other 3 can be Googled online. Since I'm no longer interested in those areas, I don't want to get into it.

This is your thread after all. I don't want to side track too much from your original topic. If you are interesting in

- Crosse Training vs. Style Evolution, or
- Why all zones should be practiced,

we can exchange different opinions over there.

[Hendrik]

1, Could you share what is "点穴(Dian Xue) and why it is advance TCMA?

2, Could you please share what is 小周天(Xiao Chou Tien) or 大周天(Da Chou Tien) have you done it?

1,What is WMD?

2, What is Fajin?

WMD = weapon of maximun destruction. The other 3 can be Googled online. Since I'm no longer interested in those areas, I don't want to get into it.

This is your thread after all. I don't want to side track too much from your original topic. If you are interesting in

- Crosse Training vs. Style Evolution, or
- Why all zones should be practiced,

we can exchange different opinions over there.


1, Thanks.

2, it doesnt matter is my thread or who's thread. if you have good points bring it up. I might be disagree but I always open.

[Hendrik]

what is the "integration" you are referring to? it sounds like you have moved above and beyond TCMA jin,qi,mind,structure into this "integration" concept. or maybe i misunderstood you to say that you tried it but it didn't work for you or you didn't see how it might be useful/used. as for integration when doing a punch or kick...i'm not sure what could be more "integrated" in the body to deliver energy than fa-jin, when done correctly.

any punch/kick/energy release done according to TCMA will involve the qi, mind, structure, jin etc. wck is a TCMA, so if you're going to do wck, you're doing TCMA. which means qi, mind, jin etc

if we're going to be advanced wck players, then these details must be understood. if you have BTDT, then could you please share your understanding of what hendrik asked? its always great to hear other peoples thinking on the subject and i could always learn some more myself.

what specific problems are you trying to solve?


theo, YKW, and all the friends who knows chinese/cantonese who read my post but not willing to reveal yourself.

This following song is my feeling and sentiment of the ancient advance SLT cultivation.
this song express better then words since it is very classical chinese type and in cantonese which is the language of the Red boat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFprdzHje0o&feature=related

Help me to translate the lyrics.


恼春风
我心因何恼春风
说不出
借酒相送

夜雨冻
雨点透射到照片中
回头似是梦
无法弹动
迷住凝望你
褪色照片中

却像有无数说话
可惜我听不懂.


The whole red boat advance SLT cultivation stuffs might be fade away forever.... in this continous evolution. we are in a very critical cross road. is WCK is going to evolve into western influence sport direction or evolve back like LJ trying to keep his kolo very close to pure Yim family teaching in the red boat. next 20 years will be the witness.


I see TST did a great job trying to keep this part of art for the past 30 years, but that cant sustain long and going further advance because the basic of the process is not clear without a solid ancient chinese TCMA foundation. and lead one to be able to tap back to the ancient chinese TCMA library of knowledge.
a clear training process must be presented because it is extremely in efficient to train with fuzzy and trial /erro way.

[YouKnowWho]

not willing to reveal yourself...
Many people on this forum know me already. Here is my website:

http://johnswang.com

Since you ask, I'll share my opinion on these 3 subjects.

1st, the 点穴(Dian Xue) skill requires to develop finger tip strength. In the Zimen system, the way to develop it is to put 2 iron boards on both side of your head when you sleep on the bed. When you rotate to one side, you put your 5 finger tips on the iron board and remain your elbow to hang in the air. when you turn around, you then train the other hand. The training is just too hard. I don't mind to train 10 hours daily, but when I sleep, I don't want to train.

2nd, as far as 小周天(Xiao Chou Tien) or 大周天(Da Chou Tien), I find it has little or nothing to do with combat. I didn't know that when I was young. But the older that I'm, the more that I realize that ancient Chinese tried to mix "health", "spiritual development", with "combat". It's a big distraction for the "combat" skill/ability development.

3rd, Fajin, Chinese Fajin always emphasis to strike on the thin air. IMO, if you can't Fajin on a heavy bag, your Fajin is not real. Boxer never used the term Fajin. There striking power is not any less than the TCMA guys.

You may call me "banana - yellow ouside but white inside" (I think you know this term). TCMA guys treat me as a MMA guy because I like "cross training". MMA guys treat me as a TCMA guy because I don't train boxing, wrestling, MT, and I love the TCMA training method. When I said that I don't believe in Qi, TCMA guys will be offended. When I said that TCMA training method is better than the modern training method, the MMA guys will be offended. No matter what I have said, my opinion always offend people in both worlds. :(

[Hendrik]

Many people on this forum know me already. Here is my website:

http://johnswang.com




Thanks and you sure very successful in SC.
Congratulation!

I certainly can learn SC from you since you are the expert.







Since you ask, I'll share my opinion on these 3 subjects.



Thanks!




1st, the 点穴(Dian Xue) skill requires to develop finger tip strength. In the Zimen system, the way to develop it is to put 2 iron boards on both side of your head when you sleep on the bed. When you rotate to one side, you put your 5 finger tips on the iron board and remain your elbow to hang in the air. when you turn around, you then train the other hand. The training is just too hard. I don't mind to train 10 hours daily, but when I sleep, I don't want to train.


Boy, this is hard stuffs. and it is going brute force. I doubt this type of training.





2nd, as far as 小周天(Xiao Chou Tien) or 大周天(Da Chou Tien), I find it has little or nothing to do with combat. I didn't know that when I was young. But the older that I'm, the more that I realize that ancient Chinese tried to mix "health", "spiritual development", with "combat". It's a big distraction for the "combat" skill/ability development.


I have a different experience with you.

both xiao chou tien and da chou tien aid and condition one's body very well for power generation handling.

in fact, xiao chou tien even strenghten the spine and the neck.
and Da chou tien make mobility easy and smooth.


Xiao Chou Tien, Da Chou Tian is all about Mind-body development got nothing to do with spiritual.

The chinese due to humble and dont like to show off talk about health cultivation. It is true that with the attainment of Xiao Chou tien and Da Chou Tine, one's health will be restore . however , the bi-product which is power and ability for combat always not mention.


For example, the Zimen training above, for those who has alread attain Da Chou Tian will take it as unreasonable and against nature and also stupid. That type of training is similar to decorate up a car with all kind of hard decoration but got nothing to do with the acceleration and the strenght of the car engine and platform.


In SLT, one uses the snake engine to cultivate the short pulse injection which in WCK is called short Jin. and that is not a local stuff but a whole body transformation with the fast acceleration of the body and transfer the high density force into the target. so it doesnt do those Zimen hard and brute force stuffs which will ruin human body. and violate the nature.

not to mention, those type of train are good only for those who has strong healty body. never for a weaker person. and even the strong healthy person train it, it will cause problem with their circulation.




3rd, Fajin, Chinese Fajin always emphasis to strike on the thin air. IMO, if you can't Fajin on a heavy bag, your Fajin is not real. Boxer never used the term Fajin. There striking power is not any less than the TCMA guys.



That is not Fajin at all. Fajin can be done to anything and any part of the body.

Your comparison with the boxer and the TCMA guys are not practical.

Take the same boxer. if the boxer is given the process and training of fajin, his power will surely and certainly increase by 2x or even 5x. that is the reality.

That is the reason when people visit me, if I find them trustworthy and good compassionate person, I give them the process and ask them to train and see for themself what is the result. the best way is to lead one to improve oneself, no fighting is needed, nothing needs to be proof. it is similar to everyone knows nueclear bomb is destructive, there is no need to prove it is destructive.
But the process is not for sale and not for making money.


In ancient WCK, it is said that the short power strike at the front of the body and bust the back of the body. That is how powerfull it is for the real deal.





You may call me "banana - yellow ouside but white inside" (I think you know this term).


For me, I have friend who is Chinese but extremely westernize and deny chinese culture. I have friend who is White but extremely knowledgeble in Chinese ancient culture.

so, where do you grow up and educate?



TCMA guys treat me as a MMA guy because I like "cross training". MMA guys treat me as a TCMA guy because I don't train boxing, wrestling, MT, and I love the TCMA training method.

When I said that I don't believe in Qi, TCMA guys will be offended. When I said that TCMA training method is better than the modern training method, the MMA guys will be offended.


I have no issue with cross training. I have no issue with MMA because I start with Judo when I was teenage, practice Kyokushin.... beside TCMA.

No one have to believe in anything. believe is just a thought which people always think.

My bottom line is simple, describe what is it and how is it done. There is no TCMA or modern training method, for me, it is just does the training making sense?


Any one could experience Qi and make use to it if one is train by a legitimate teacher who knows it. Saying there is Qi or there is NO Qi before one has deep investigate or training in it is just off the mark.






No matter what I have said, my opinion always offend people in both worlds. :(

for me,
It doesnt matter for what others think. the key is could one cash what one said.




From you background, it seems that you have a very good health since young and your true background is SC and following GM Chang Dong-Shen's path.



I have seen people who is weak/sick and cant do heavy spot but with ancient TCMA cultivation gaining health back and earning martial capability. So the incident such as Chen Man-Ching who heal himself and become a great figther are real. Those type of training doesnt take the western spot direction but very TCM based training. There are different paths in this world and Ancient TCMA path really has its magic.

The Shao Lin Yi Jing jing, the Emei 12 Zhuang, the Taiji, the Six healing Sound, the bone marrow washing, the standing post...... all are real deal. the problem is does one meet a real deal sifu to coach one to get the result.

[LoneTiger108]

Are you sure your accusation and judgement towards me is correct? Find out more before making up judgement is a way to avoid mistake and looking foolish.

Dude, did I 'accuse' you of anything?? You do realize that I was just responding to what I read don't you??


I am a student of the late Chan Patriach Hsuan Hua and I am a follower of the late Ma Li-Tang the internal TCMA expert in China.

Of course I know you have learnt Wing Chun from the Yik Kam lineage (?) although this is still a question as I thought I read somewhere else that you learnt Cho Ga too (correct me by all means!)

Apart from still not showing us any Wing Chun you have done little more than bore me again Hendrik!

[ntc]

Hendrik.... I pondered a lot on whether to comment on this thread but decided to put in my two cents.

First of all, I believe you already know that I am Chinese, born and raised in China, and learned my kung fu there as well. I also have a background in Chinese philosophy, Chinese Medicine and Chinese herbs like you, and so have an upbringing very similar to you.

I can understand where you are coming from and some of your postings, but I need to point a few things out.

First of all, you need to realize and to remember that how kung fu is taught here in the western world is very different from how it is taught in China. Back in China, kung fu is taught as part of our culture and it becomes our way of living day-to-day, and is richly immersed with religion, Chinese medicine, philosophy, and martial arts; kuen kuets present philosophies that we end up using as part of how we live. However, in the western world, kung fu is more of a combative sport and emphasis is mainly on the physical, fighting aspects, and lesser of the other components. Neither way is totally right nor totally wrong - they are both different, extreme, and unique. One should not impose either approach on the other, but respect the other for what they are meant to be. There is much to be learnt from each other.

Secondly, the medicinal part where you describe the deficiencies of the kidney, 小周天(Xiao Chou Tien) or 大周天(Da Chou Tien), Jing, and other aspects of the human physiology according to Chinese Medicine forms a critical part of our health, again from a Chinese perspective. True that we Chinese believe in internal conditioning as a necessity to physical conditioning, but the approach is very different from things here in the west where physical conditioining is the first and formost. From a western perspective, the human physiology is very different and westerners adopt a very different approach - I definitely know this as I work with a lot of MDs, Oncologists, and western healthcare practitioners all the time. In the Chinese aspect, this physiological part is deeply engrained in our kung fu training, but not so in the western world - the focus there is more on the physical strength, muscular physique, conditioning, etc. Again, different points of view, both correct from their own perspective.

Thirdly, WCK and kung fu training, or shall we use it in your terms, "TCMA". Everyone aligns their kung fu education with key factors, including (not necessarily in this order) (a) the sifu they are able to find/study with, (b) their personality, (c) the availability of the martial art near where they are located, (d) their religion, (e) their cultural background, (f) their individual reasons why they want to learn kung fu and how they want to use it, and (g) other unique personal reasons of their own. With this in mind, everyone's level of pursuit into the martial arts is different, and from their own perspective they are all doing the right thing. There are folks on this forum who share their experiences and shed light onto the many different paths that may exist, so that individuals know what options there are or may be. And then there are those whose only interest is to cause trouble, act arrogant, and belittle others with condescending posts. And that's all part of what a forum like this will be like.

I needed to put this post because I feel that people may start getting a bad taste in their mouths as discussions go on. There have been past posts by a variety of people that you, I, and others have addressed as egotistical, close-minded, etc. But, when I read your posts in this thread and how you are so adamant that people walk the 2-door way you describe or else they really don't know the kung fu way, then with all due respect I feel that you come across as falling into the same condescending category as well. Which makes you not that much different from those people. And judging from your past posts, I don't believe you are such, but of course I could be wrong.

We need to realize that, yes there are differences between the kung fu path that people treat both in the western world as well as in China, and I think it is great that you are trying to enlighten people with what the differences are. But I feel you also need to respect other people's perspective if they do not agree with what you are saying, and just move on. Otherwise, you may inadvertently be leaving a bad taste in people's mouth.

After all, a discussion forum is after all... a forum for discussion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and healthy discussions and debates should always be encouraged.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik.... I pondered a lot on whether to comment on this thread but decided to put in my two cents.

Great!

and the following is my view.


I understood your view as to make friend with everyone.

If what was brought up is an opinion/perspective you are right and I am totally in agreement with you. but what was brought up if it is a fact then one has to face it instead of shooting the messenger.


The issue is are we mature up to the level of identify what was brought up is an opinion/perspective or it is a fact?

May be you want to do a research and find out is that two doors my opinion/perspective/approach or it is a mile stone of advance TCMA, that way whether I am imposed my approach to others or I am just a messager relay what is going on is clear by itself.

also, up to now, you have not brought up an alternative of the two doors, but focus on how you feel I am not respecting others. That for me is off mark but i accept your view as it is. I would like to see anyone to brought up an alternative of the two doors and discuss. otherwise, the only thing solve is " we need to pad each others back so we all feel great" but the SLT training is remain not working.



as you suggest, I do move on with those who is not in the same wave length.
I might disagree but I never against. I argue with reasons and data with those who is in the same wave length not to win the argument but toward clarify the subject.

[LoneTiger108]

Hendrik.... I pondered a lot on whether to comment on this thread but decided to put in my two cents....

I for one am glad you did put in your two cents :)

Possibly one of the most sound and balanced views concerning TCMA/Western comparison I have seen in a very long time, so thank you for contributing.

[Vajramusti]

Good post NTC.

Hendrik-NTC is not trying to make friends with everyone.. he does not need to.

Ditto for me too... about seeking friendship and agreement.

This is just a chat list.... with a considerable amount of noise.

joy chaudhuri

[YouKnowWho]

A christian tries to convert a muslim will be as hard as a muslim tries to convert a christian. Both may just waste time and effort. Same as a Qi believer vs. non-Qi believer. Most members in this forum just want to share their opinions. They don't want to be told what to do (myself included). Sometime it's better just to accept the opinions difference and move on.

[ntc]

YouKnowWho --> I could not agree with you more

[ntc]

I for one am glad you did put in your two cents :)

Possibly one of the most sound and balanced views concerning TCMA/Western comparison I have seen in a very long time, so thank you for contributing.

LoneTiger --> Thank you... I appreciate the complement.

[ntc]

Good post NTC.

Hendrik-NTC is not trying to make friends with everyone.. he does not need to.

Ditto for me too... about seeking friendship and agreement.

This is just a chat list.... with a considerable amount of noise.

joy chaudhuri

Thank you, Joy... you are correct.

[ntc]

Hendrik: I am replying to the statements in your post (in quotes)

"I understood your view as to make friend with everyone. "
--> You are very wrong about this. Please don't try to feel you know or need to know what people are thinking, cause you do not ! In this case, my intent is not to make friends with everyone; this is NOT possible. There will always be those who agree with you and those that don't. And that is just how life is... you can't go about trying to please everyone... be yourself, and those who feel you have something to offer, whether it is friendship, WCK, enlightment, whatever... they will automatically interface with you. My intent is very simple and with no hidden intentions --> just to speak my mind and offer my opinion, and the fact that not all Chinese born in China and raised very similarly with you share your opinion. That's all.

"If what was brought up is an opinion/perspective you are right and I am totally in agreement with you. but what was brought up if it is a fact then one has to face it instead of shooting the messenger. "
--> if you are implying via this that you are the messenger and I am shooting you, I am confident that most people reading this post will be scratching their heads and wondering how on earth did you arrive at that conclusion. All I am trying to do with my post is to let you know that, regardless of whether you intended to or not, from a third person point of view your posts come across as though you are trying to force your beliefs down other peoples' throat. And with that can exhibit to others a potentially false sense of arrogance and/or condescendence. And also, what you construe as a "fact" may be a fact to you in every sense of the word, while others may not consider it so. Accept it and move on. Not everyone agreed with Einstein's theory of relativity when he first formulated it; he said it was a fact, while others (in fact, most others) did not. Even to this day, there is still an ongoing debate towards the validity of that theory as well as the breadth and depth to which that theory may be validated.

"May be you want to do a research and find out is that two doors my opinion/perspective/approach or it is a mile stone of advance TCMA, that way whether I am imposed my approach to others or I am just a messager relay what is going on is clear by itself."--> the "two door" is a principle (or whatever you choose to call it) that it appears you either inherited from your teacher or gained from your own research. And that is great for you. I have no doubts that others have found their own version of "two door" that enlightens them. Why insist on forcing your "two door" thinking on others as the only way there is? Like the Chinese saying goes "every tall mountain will have one mountain taller than itself".... this is an expression you should know, I am sure.

"also, up to now, you have not brought up an alternative of the two doors, but focus on how you feel I am not respecting others. That for me is off mark but i accept your view as it is. "
--> Thank you for accepting my view as it is. Again, my intent is not to attack you, but just to make you aware of how your posts may be coming across to others. How often do you hear that one does not realize a problem exists until another person points out the problem? - It is a common occurence in life - that's just the way it is. This is why people say that "true friends will not hesitate to tell another friend that they have done something wrong, even at the risk of their friendship". Now, I hardly know you and I suppose since you claim a background of WCK that you and I are therefore considered WC cousins. But I do know that you and I share very close cultural / martial / spiritual / philosophical / medical upbringings. And so, with this in mind, I am making my comments. And as to alternative of the two doors, yes I have my own version. But it is not represented as two doors, but as a holistic combination of mind, body, and soul. The three have to holistically function well and in harmony, otherwise one would experience inadequacies, whether in health, life, martial arts, or other aspects in this world. Mind, body, and soul in harmony does require a smooth flow of Qi, and therefore blood. Just as in western, the good fighter needs to be aggressive, cunning, but at the same time relaxed and control of their mind. And this, again requires good blood flow circulating to the brain. You refer to this cumulative process as part of your "two-door" principle; I have mine in a different way, as do others here on the forum. Without the right mind / body / spirit, the WC fighter cannot be a great fighter. As an example, in the western world, if the person does not have the fighting courage (mind), physical stamina/conditioning (body), or the will / confidence to win (spirit), it is highly doubtful that the person would be a good fighter, regardless of whether WC is used or not. In the eastern world, the mind / body / spirit incorporates much more than this, and this is almost always interwoven within the kung fu system itself and the way it is taught. Differences lie between the east and the west, but still represented as mind/body/spirit. This is the path from which I have come, and you can see this throughout the Tao, the I Ching, and the Dao De Ching, not to mention the teachings of Confuscius; I did not make this up. And in any case, this is something I would never want to force someone else to buy into. If they want to discuss it, I would be happy to; if they don't that is not a problem at all and I respect that.

Anyways, enough said. I apologize to the other readers here for the wordiness of this post, which was not my original intent. I just feel that the direction of the discussion towards things such as implied by Hendrik's "two-door" path bears nothing towards whether a certain WC system is authentic or not. Rather, it should be addressed in a thread that explores the different ways in which a student can be taught WC beyond the basic forms and strength conditioning, and also explore differences between eastern and western approaches to training. A more appropriate title to this discussion would have been "The Tao of WC Training" or something like that... or maybe even a thread under Tai Chi or TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) as suggested by someone earlier in the thread.

"as you suggest, I do move on with those who is not in the same wave length.
I might disagree but I never against. I argue with reasons and data with those who is in the same wave length not to win the argument but toward clarify the subject."
--> Do you really move on? And maybe you do... but from an outsider's perspective it comes across as though you are constantly insisting that unless someone went through the "two-door" they really have not, in your words, learned real TCMA. I hope you are able to see what I am trying to bring to your attention.

Peace/

[Phil Redmond]

You can "search" all you want, but if no one shows it to you, then you are in square one, so to speak. You can't just got to China and expect sifus to share all of their knowledge with you. Most of them don't even share their knowledge with their Chinese students....
Keith Mazza teaches at a Chinese school in NJ on Sundays. I used to help him out there so I know the attitudes of some of the Chinese parents. Anyway, recently while he was teaching he overheard some Chinese men speaking about how Keith couldn't really know Chinese kung fu because he wasn't Chinese. They didn't know that Keith speaks Mandarin. Well, he went over to them and spoke in Mandarin. One of the men did Tai Chi and another one did Wing Chun. Keith offered them to test him. He did push hands with the Tai Chi guy and chi sao and some techniques with the WC guy. Now they want their kids to join his school. I encountered the Chinese are better that then Gwailo thing for years. I use to think that if you're Chinese your kung fu has to be good. I don't anymore. Theory, history, impressive forms, etc., are nice but if you can't bang then those things mean nothing to me personally.

[ntc]

A christian tries to convert a muslim will be as hard as a muslim tries to convert a christian. Both may just waste time and effort. Same as a Qi believer vs. non-Qi believer. Most members in this forum just want to share their opinions. They don't want to be told what to do (myself included). Sometime it's better just to accept the opinions difference and move on.

YouKnowWho --> you put out a great example, and I am definitely in agreement with you on this. Whether muslim, Christian, buddhist, etc. etc. etc., the ultimate goal is to become a good human being. The religion merely represents a definition of what a good human being is and the corresponding way to attain it. The individual will choose the path/religion that suits him/her best, and there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. There is no one all-encompassing definitively true/right way. If you get to where you want to be and end up being a good person, then you have chosen the right religion, the right path, and therefore the right way. What works for one may not necessarily work for another.

You picked a wonderful example... thank you.

[YouKnowWho]

You picked a wonderful example... thank you.
Thanks!

Someone on this forum once said that I had tried to shove my opinion into other's throat. Today, I try very hard not to do that anymore.

Sometime it's easy to say but hard to do. When KF attacked on TCMA, I just had no choice but to fight back.

Even Meng-Zi once said, "I don't like to argue, but sometime I just don't have choice." When he said that, he was arguing. :)

It's very common that people don't agree. Even Confucius said, "When my way cannot be accepted, I'll take a raffle and float on the sea". Confusius also said, "If nobody appreciate my idea, it's like a jade that hides in the closet, someday people will detect my value".

We can't compare ourselves to Confusius or Meng-Zi. We are all just average human being. So don't expect too much out of ourselves.

[ntc]

Keith Mazza teaches at a Chinese school in NJ on Sundays. I used to help him out there so I know the attitudes of some of the Chinese parents. Anyway, recently while he was teaching he overheard some Chinese men speaking about how Keith couldn't really know Chinese kung fu because he wasn't Chinese. They didn't know that Keith speaks Mandarin. Well, he went over to them and spoke in Mandarin. One of the men did Tai Chi and another one did Wing Chun. Keith offered them to test him. He did push hands with the Tai Chi guy and chi sao and some techniques with the WC guy. Now they want their kids to join his school. I encountered the Chinese are better that then Gwailo thing for years. I use to think that if you're Chinese your kung fu has to be good. I don't anymore. Theory, history, impressive forms, etc., are nice but if you can't bang then those things mean nothing to me personally.

Phil, I hear you, and you are very correct. I myself was very guilty of making a Gwailo judgement many years ago. One of my early teachers of Chinese Medicine was a caucasian, and I remember thinking "what does he know about Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine". I was especially skeptical as I had already been trained in Chinese Medicine in China, but had to do some US training to get licensed here. Well, to make a long story short he proved me very wrong and turned out to be a wonderful teacher and Acupuncturist. To this day I have a lot of respect for him; he and I stay in touch and he remains one of the top acupuncturists in the US and we remain good friends.

So, your point is well taken that the skin color does not necessarily nor always reflect the quality. And I also believe that the martial art itself does not reflect its effectiveness or its deadliness, but rather, the martial artist is the one who is either able or not able to bring out the value/quality of the art.

[FongSung]

If one look at the distinct different between the Yik Kam SLT and the CLF set of Cho family, one will see how Cho family evolve their art.

The CLF set of Cho family art will condition and evolve one's body different then the SLT.

.

I am not sure what you mean above and I am curious to your meaning and what you are implying.

Are you saying that:

1. the Cho family's CLF set, of which they have many not just one, will condition the body differently than the Cho family 108 SLT as taught to them by Yik Kam?

2. the Cho family no longer practise the SLT taught as to them by Yik Kam but have evolved it into a CLF type set?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Keith Mazza teaches at a Chinese school in NJ on Sundays. I used to help him out there so I know the attitudes of some of the Chinese parents. Anyway, recently while he was teaching he overheard some Chinese men speaking about how Keith couldn't really know Chinese kung fu because he wasn't Chinese. They didn't know that Keith speaks Mandarin. Well, he went over to them and spoke in Mandarin. One of the men did Tai Chi and another one did Wing Chun. Keith offered them to test him. He did push hands with the Tai Chi guy and chi sao and some techniques with the WC guy. Now they want their kids to join his school. I encountered the Chinese are better that then Gwailo thing for years. I use to think that if you're Chinese your kung fu has to be good. I don't anymore. Theory, history, impressive forms, etc., are nice but if you can't bang then those things mean nothing to me personally.

Spot on Phil.
Many people don't realize that some westerns are the actual lineage holders of many TCMA and that those westerns simply keep to themselves and don't ask or seek the limelight.

[TenTigers]

IMHO-training 小周天(Xiao Chou Tien) or 大周天(Da Chou Tien) brings other benefits besides "internal cultivation," and hei development.
In my limited experience, I have found it develops intent, body awareness, including awareness of structure, alignment, and breath, all leading to power generation and positional alignments for combative ability. So, without shrouding it in mysticism, it becomes a relavent practice to enhance martial skill.

a funny side note about the discrimination of gwailos teaching TCMA;
I was teaching for years at a Chinese Association. One year, a famous Chinese Martial Artist and actor (he was in CTHD)does a demo during our Chinese New Year show, and Lo and Behold, the next semester, they replaced me with him as Martial Arts instructor.
(wait, it gets better)
The following year, they call me up and say they want me to return.
(wait, it gets better still)
So, I'm teaching my class, and one of the students says he already learned the form I was teaching from the Chinese instructor. I find that odd, since it was a basic set of my own creation.
It turns out that one of the students who learned the set from me when I taught previously at the association, taught it to the "Chinese Master," who then started teaching it, at the school, as his own.
Funnier still, he apparently videotaped one of my students performing dan-dao, and then taught the set to one of his private students, who performed it at Chinese New Year show-very poorly.
In typical gwailo fashion, I then had one of my students bang out the same set.

(Horrors! You make him lose face! Gwailos have no understanding of proper Chinese culture and etiquette! Barbarian!-Funny how some Chinese people can take protocal and twist it to their own means, but when a gwailo does it, it's somehow wrong...oh well, what do I know? I'm just a gwailo.)

[Hendrik]

I am not sure what you mean above and I am curious to your meaning and what you are implying.

Are you saying that:

1. the Cho family's CLF set, of which they have many not just one, will condition the body differently than the Cho family 108 SLT as taught to them by Yik Kam?

2. the Cho family no longer practise the SLT taught as to them by Yik Kam but have evolved it into a CLF type set?



There is no implication.

That is a set create by the ancestor of Cho family with the name "CLF". many has learn this set in the early era of Penang Malaysia..

The set is a hybrid evolution of WCK and CLF. Thus, the conditioning of the body, structure, dynamic of this set is no longer the same with the Yik Kam or 108 long set SLT or the teaching of Yim (wing chun) family. it has evolve with the Cho family signature.

hope this help.

[Hendrik]

IMHO-training 小周天(Xiao Chou Tien) or 大周天(Da Chou Tien) brings other benefits besides "internal cultivation," and hei development.
In my limited experience, I have found it develops intent, body awareness, including awareness of structure, alignment, and breath, all leading to power generation and positional alignments for combative ability.

So, without shrouding it in mysticism, it becomes a relavent practice to enhance martial skill.


True.

In today's word,

The first basic Xiao Chou Tien result/benifit , is to have the spine lively (du medirian cultivation) and deeper efficient/effective low abdorment breathing (Ren cultivation) , then the internal organs....etc.


The first order Da Chou Tien result/benifit, is to have the whole body 's structure and flow lively on top of Xiao Chou Tien.



Thus, a born healthy and strong fighter, is naturally having the above basic characteristic whether they do Da/ Xiao Chou Tien or not.

One practice the Da/xiao Chou tien is for repair and maintainance/ strengtening/balancing of the body because body might not naturally born healthy and balance, there are aging, there are sick, ......


The issue we face today is Chinese or Non Chinese, most have no proper understanding of what it is and thus end up with a mess of speculation which side track off mark.


Notice I have not even use the Qi term above. No need to. Why? because Qi is a pre-physical energy flow of the body. one manages or conditioning the physical via pre-physical energy flow. A massage is a pre-physical conditioning. one deal with the pre-physical before the physical manifestation. or one transform the physical with the Pre-physical flow. It is a totally causal system nothing clear and solid and produce result right away.








a funny side note about the discrimination of gwailos teaching TCMA;
I was teaching for years at a Chinese Association. One year, a famous Chinese Martial Artist and actor (he was in CTHD)does a demo during our Chinese New Year show, and Lo and Behold, the next semester, they replaced me with him as Martial Arts instructor..............


That is human isnt it?

Thus, my view is focus on the topic; who know the subject knows it disregards of what race or nationality.

[FongSung]

Thanks Hendrik.

To clarify, the Cho family still maintain the pure SLT 108 set as passed down by Yik Kam, in addition to many other forms.

[Hendrik]

Thanks Hendrik.

To clarify, the Cho family still maintain the pure SLT 108 set as passed down by Yik Kam, in addition to many other forms.



Fongsung,


There is nothing wrong with evolution, if fact the Cho's CLF hybid evolution has its beauty in it. doing it properly, it be able to expand the dynamic horizon of SLT 108 set.

Also, as in any TCMA, set or form is secondary. Form and set evolve with time.

The important key is does one has the process of attain the Kung Fu which the ancestor could attain. that is the soul of system.

When form is missed or lost, that can always be created and design provided the soul of ths sytem is still there.

[FongSung]

There is nothing wrong with evolution, if fact the Cho's CLF hybid evolution has its beauty in it. if doing it properly it be able to expand the dynamic horizon of SLT 108 set.

Again you are being ambiguous.

I am stating that besides any other set Cho Family in China & SE Asia maintain the pure SLT 108 as taught to them from Yik Kam. Since then it has been passed down 3 bloodline generations from grandfather to father to son in China, unchanged.

Are you disagreeing with this statement?

[FongSung]

The important key is does one has the process of attain the Kung Fu which the ancestor could attain. that is the soul of system.

When form is missed or lost, that can always be created and design provided the soul of ths sytem is still there.

Like I said before this is not an issue as nothing has been lost. Unless someone taught you what the Cho ancestors did not pass on to there own son's and family?

[Hendrik]

Again you are being ambiguous.

I am stating that besides any other set Cho Family in China & SE Asia maintain the pure SLT 108 as taught to them from Yik Kam.

Since then it has been passed down 3 bloodline generations from grandfather to father to son in China, unchanged.

Are you disagreeing with this statement?



1,
being ambiguous.


please read my post as it is instead of read what is not there.



2,


Pure? unchanged? agree and disagree?


Let's take a look at what is the facts and let the facts answer your question by itself.


Take a small present day's sample youtube from Cho family China and the known Cho family senior in Penang Malaysia ( who is the oldest in Cho family tree alive today learning his set directly from the second generation after Yik Kam.)


Tell me
which of the following existing practice of 108 SLT is pure and unchanged of practice Yik Kam's teaching?

Or

Please show me a 108 SLT today which is pure and unchange if none of the above is pure and unchange?

Also, may be we want to ask a question is it possible for something to be pure and unchange after 150 years or more?




A, China
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7exQZ1UeL9w

B, Penang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLCTuRE4zC0&feature=related

[Hendrik]

Like I said before this is not an issue as nothing has been lost.

Unless someone taught you what the Cho ancestors did not pass on to there own son's and family?


Lost....?

you lost me on you thinking logic.



please re read my previous post here and lets not getting side track.




There is nothing wrong with evolution, in fact the Cho's CLF hybid evolution has its beauty in it. doing it properly, it be able to expand the dynamic horizon of SLT 108 set.





Also, as in any TCMA, set or form is secondary. Form and set evolve with time.

The important key is does one has the process of attain the Kung Fu which the ancestor could attain. that is the soul of system.

When form is missed or lost, that can always be created and design provided the soul of ths sytem is still there.

[Hendrik]

Ntc,


Thanks and appreciate for you good ideas.

Open discussion is always a good thing and lead to better mutual understanding.

Since we all are not perfect there always room to grow.



two doors are not a principle or ideas. the Two doors could be analogy to the gravity. as soon as one stay in the earth. one cant defy gravity.

It is a nature phenomenon we human need to face for handling the mind/body, otherwise we cant handle it. those two doors are the path ways to access what general ordinary un train mind and body cannot access.

Certainly one can label that two doors in the words one like however one cannot get away from that basic if one needs to handle the mind-body.

So, it is not a believe, a perspective, or a philosophy. it is something real human has to face. Without entering from these two doors, one cant get in to know the body and mind well.

It doesnt have to train SLT for 10 years. it just takes 20 mins per morning and night for 21 days and one will see what have never seen before, and the journey begin.


So stop thinking and speculating and arguing with me in your head, take the two doors and move out, it is not about thinking and philosophy and ideas and religion and Western and Eastern ..... at all. It is take action and move out of the stuckness in that area between the jaw and the top of the head which call brain. it is time to see what is going on instead of believing in what sifu says. life is action and action is doing.






And as to alternative of the two doors, yes I have my own version. But it is not represented as two doors, but as a holistic combination of mind, body, and soul.

The three have to holistically function well and in harmony, otherwise one would experience inadequacies, whether in health, life, martial arts, or other aspects in this world. Mind, body, and soul in harmony does require a smooth flow of Qi, and therefore blood.



Great that you have some view on these.






Without the right mind / body / spirit, the WC fighter cannot be a great fighter. As an example, in the western world, if the person does not have the fighting courage (mind), physical stamina/conditioning (body), or the will / confidence to win (spirit), it is highly doubtful that the person would be a good fighter, regardless of whether WC is used or not. In the eastern world, the mind / body / spirit incorporates much more than this, and this is almost always interwoven within the kung fu system itself and the way it is taught. Differences lie between the east and the west, but still represented as mind/body/spirit.



For me, the two doors are much much fundamental compare with the other ideas. There is no different between the east and west. the issue is do one intended to get into that deep of one's body and mind? if yes, then disregards of east or west since it is a human nature deal. it is like eating. there are western and eastern taste food, but know how to eat come first.




I say learn "advance/interna TCMA" instead of "real TCMA" we need to be specific here. and it is a fact if one have not enter via the two doors one really doesnt know the kung fu and have the kung fu. it is like one cannot ignore gravity while living in the earth.


I see what you bring up.

I move on with those who doesnt interested, thus I dont reply their post. I always share with those who is interested and would like to get something out of their SLT practice.

Like you say above one cannot please every one. similar to the rising sun, the sun will not stop rising because some one is blind. and the sun doesnt force the blind to see it too. that is my attitude.

I dont hold any one wrong it is just as simple as a discussion, like it join it, dont like it ignore it. no one can impose or force any one to read anyone's post.

[ntc]

Hendrik:

"So stop thinking and speculating and arguing with me in your head, take the two doors and move out, it is not about thinking and philosophy and ideas and religion and Western and Eastern ..... at all. It is take action and move out of the stuckness in that area between the jaw and the top of the head which call brain. it is time to see what is going on instead of believing in what sifu says. life is action and action is doing."

From your response above, I can see I got nowhere with my post and you just totally ignored the message I was trying to convey to you. I thought that since you keep presenting yourself as an individual with wisdom and having attained (in your own words) kung fu (unlike the many others who, as you indicated, don't have kung fu since they did not enter the sacred two doors that you keep referring to), that perhaps you had more intellectual maturity and openess for some good communication. Alas, I was wrong, and I acknowledge that. It does seem like it needs to be your "2-door"way or no way.... at least nothing that has got to do with kung fu in any way.

So with that, I will leave you and your sacred "2-door" alone, and will officially have you on my "ignore list". I am dedfinitely anticipating a strong response from you to this post, to which I am not planning to post back. But perhaps someday, when it appears you have noteworthy contributions in your posts, I will definitely not hesitate to respond and share my views as well.. Until then, best of luck in your "2-door" journey.

PS: The only reason why I did not debate any of your criticisms of my post nor address any of the condescending remarks therein is not because I agreed with everything you said. On the contrary, you are so far off the mark. But my reason for not engaging you is very simple: your nonsense remarks are not worth my time or effort responding. The only thing I will say is that my own personal journey goes much deeper than the road travelled by my sifu and me (as you seem to imply) - it encompasses my family's teachings, the teachings of Confuscius/Lao Tzu/Taoism/I Ching/Tao Te Ching/etc in which our Chinese culture is so deeply engrained, the Christian faith that I have, the Chinese medicine that I know and practice, and the many friends and good-hearted folks who have given me advice and guidance over the years. Not to mention the many truly wonderful kung fu masters, both Chinese and non-Chinese, that I have had the pleasure to know and exchange ideas/techniques/philosophies with.

And let me give you one last hint (which I am sure you will respond by telling me you do not need any hints at all) --> though you may not realize, your hardline "2-door" stance is quickly alienating people from you and rocking whatever credibility you might have with the folks on this forum. Not to mention, the hard stance is somewhat embarassing to the Chinese culture because we pride ourselves to be open-minded, respectful, and accepting, rather than a shove-it-down-your-throat type.

[GlennR]

Ntc,


Thanks and appreciate for you good ideas.

Open discussion is always a good thing and lead to better mutual understanding.

Since we all are not perfect there always room to grow.



two doors are not a principle or ideas. the Two doors could be analogy to the gravity. as soon as one stay in the earth. one cant defy gravity.

It is a nature phenomenon we human need to face for handling the mind/body, otherwise we cant handle it. those two doors are the path ways to access what general ordinary un train mind and body cannot access.

Certainly one can label that two doors in the words one like however one cannot get away from that basic if one needs to handle the mind-body.

So, it is not a believe, a perspective, or a philosophy. it is something real human has to face. Without entering from these two doors, one cant get in to know the body and mind well.

It doesnt have to train SLT for 10 years. it just takes 20 mins per morning and night for 21 days and one will see what have never seen before, and the journey begin.


So stop thinking and speculating and arguing with me in your head, take the two doors and move out, it is not about thinking and philosophy and ideas and religion and Western and Eastern ..... at all. It is take action and move out of the stuckness in that area between the jaw and the top of the head which call brain. it is time to see what is going on instead of believing in what sifu says. life is action and action is doing.






Great that you have some view on these.







For me, the two doors are much much fundamental compare with the other ideas. There is no different between the east and west. the issue is do one intended to get into that deep of one's body and mind? if yes, then disregards of east or west since it is a human nature deal. it is like eating. there are western and eastern taste food, but know how to eat come first.




I say learn "advance/interna TCMA" instead of "real TCMA" we need to be specific here. and it is a fact if one have not enter via the two doors one really doesnt know the kung fu and have the kung fu. it is like one cannot ignore gravity while living in the earth.


I see what you bring up.

I move on with those who doesnt interested, thus I dont reply their post. I always share with those who is interested and would like to get something out of their SLT practice.

Like you say above one cannot please every one. similar to the rising sun, the sun will not stop rising because some one is blind. and the sun doesnt force the blind to see it too. that is my attitude.

I dont hold any one wrong it is just as simple as a discussion, like it join it, dont like it ignore it. no one can impose or force any one to read anyone's post.

Why are threads closed down because of a few spats between people on the forum, yet Hendrick seems to be allowed to run rampant with his agenda and then , in my view, arrogantly dismiss anyone who disagrees with him through pseudo intellectual tripe like above

Id rather some good honest arguments witn passion , even if they get a bit heated, than pages and pages of his nonsense.
Am i the only person that feels this way?
GkennR

[Hendrik]

From your response above, I can see I got nowhere with my post and you just totally ignored the message I was trying to convey to you.


I thought that since you keep presenting yourself as an individual with wisdom and having kung fu

(unlike the many others who, as you indicated, don't have kung fu since they did not enter the sacred two doors that you keep referring to),

that perhaps you had more intellectual maturity and openess for some good communication.

Alas, I was wrong, and I acknowledge that.





I respect and appreciate you share your view,
but take look a at your post above, a manipulative agenda isnt it?

Isnt you practicing impose your view on me or you will do anything to punish me agenda?











It does seem like it needs to be your "2-door"way or no way.... at least nothing that has got to do with kung fu in any way.
So with that, I will leave you and your sacred "2-door" alone, and will officially have you on my "ignore list". Perhaps someday, when it appears you have noteworthy contributions in your posts, I will definitely not hesitate to respond and share my views. Until then, best of luck in your "2-door" journey.

You dont have to take what I say, so,
Please ignore me if that make you feel better.

Thanks!








PS:

The only reason why I did not debate any of your criticisms of my post nor address any of the condescending remarks therein is not because I agreed with everything you said.

On the contrary, you are so far off the mark.

But my reason for not engaging you is very simple: your nonsense remarks are not worth my time or effort responding.

And let me give you one last hint (which I am sure you will tell me you do not need any hints at all) --> though you may not realize,

your hardline "2-door" stance is quickly alienating people from you and rocking whatever credibility you might have with the folks on this forum.

Not to mention, the hard stance is somewhat embarassing to the Chinese culture because we pride ourselves to be open-minded, respectful, and accepting, rather than a shove-it-down-your-throat type.


I sense anger and mad and trying to punish me because I am not obidient and follow you, Why is that?

I have never attacked you personally in my previous post, in fact, I am being friendly and reasonable. I just express myself and not following your direction, is that a sin? Even here I choose to not attack you because I can accept others tell me I am just B$ and dont have to force the world my way.

your post here is just confirming your behaviour of "if you dont go my way I will punish you at all cost"

As for what is the facts and truth. you could be right I could be wrong, that I leave it to those who practice the art.

and finally ask yourself, who is trying to shove-it-down to others throat? the one who practice take it or leave it, or the one who practice " if you dont follow my will, I will punished you at all cost?"


Thanks and please ignore me forever.

[Hendrik]

Why are threads closed down because of a few spats between people on the forum, yet Hendrick seems to be allowed to run rampant with his agenda and then , in my view, arrogantly dismiss anyone who disagrees with him through pseudo intellectual tripe like above

Id rather some good honest arguments witn passion , even if they get a bit heated, than pages and pages of his nonsense.
Am i the only person that feels this way?
GkennR



Thank you and appreciate for your comment.

Please feel free to ignore my post since it is not fitting your taste.


If you dont like my view, bring up your theory, your evidenct, your fact and discuss.
I am open for it.

I have never said everyone has to listen to me and have not attack any one just because they have a different view then myself. I dont expect other to buy into what I am presenting and I dont have to follow others view because it is not a sin in agreeing or disagreeing as in any higher education college or university.


I can be stubornly or confidently believe in my view such as when Galileo knows and tell everyone the earth is round, does that has to be punished just because most believe the earth is flat?

Here I truely and respectly propose that those who dont like my post please dont read it.

[FongSung]

My dear Hendrik I simply asked for clarification on your oringnal post

Hendrik: If one look at the distinct different between the Yik Kam SLT and the CLF set of Cho family, one will see how Cho family evolve their art.

1. Are you implying that the Cho Family have evolved the YIK KAM SLT into a CLF set?

OR

2. That in "addition" to the YIK Kam SLT the Cho family created a CLF set were one will see this evolution?

Just a simple answer 1 or 2 to clarify your opinion / statement.

[FongSung]

1,

Let's take a look at what is the facts and let the facts answer your question by itself.


Take a small present day's sample youtube from Cho family China and the known Cho family senior in Penang Malaysia ( who is the oldest in Cho family tree alive today learning his set directly from the second generation after Yik Kam.)

Tell me
which of the following existing practice of 108 SLT is pure and unchanged of practice Yik Kam's teaching?

Or

Please show me a 108 SLT today which is pure and unchange if none of the above is pure and unchange?

Also, may be we want to ask a question is it possible for something to be pure and unchange after 150 years or more?

A, China
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7exQZ1UeL9w

B, Penang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLCTuRE4zC0&feature=related

Facts? So you have been to the Cho Village's and to the 19 schools and meet with the Elders that still remember been taught by Cho Dak Sing and asked them their age.

Pure as in not mixed with CLF, unchanged as in not altered since it's teaching from Yik Kam. Not my words but from the head Cho family (son of Cho Cheun) who made this statement in a gathering of Wing Chun master from all over Gwondung province.

As for your VDO clips, is this what your statement is based on, is this your research. Have you visited either? Don't you continuously defend your Tai Chi clips by saying you can not judge what you can not see and must "bai si" to get the goods?

If I were to put 2 links to your "Sihengs" vdo clips on Youtube would that be a fair indicator of the Wing Chun you practise?

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1097318]Thank you and appreciate for your comment.

Please feel free to ignore my post since it is not fitting your taste.


If you dont like my view, bring up your theory, your evidenct, your fact and discuss.
I am open for it.




My theory??
Ok, sure
Mine is that some time ago, a bunch of guys that fight using different styles of Kung Fu happened to get together and hone... through experimentation (ie. fighting).. a style called WC.
It has since gone onto being the worlds most popular form of Kung Fu.
Thats it.

Anymore fantasising about what we lost 150 years ago, or 6 vectors or snakes, monkeys, baboons or whatever is pure martial masturbation

Heres my take on MMA by the way

Mine is that currently, a bunch of guys that fight using different styles of martial arts happened to get together and hone... through experimentation (ie. fighting).. a style called MMA.
It has since gone onto being the worlds most popular form of Martial Art

See the common thread??

Fighting... not fantasy
Thats it.

[kowloonboy]

I am new to Wing Chun, after reading a lot more on this forum, and also researching on WingChunPedia. I am getting more confuse and losing motivation.

Firstly, I started Wing Chun because it is supposed to be simple and direct. This is what attracted me in started my path in learning Wing Chun. I like the principle and concept of Wing Chun as it is supposed to be simple and direct. I had hit a few times hurdle in the last few months, such as that many people online say that Wing Chun is not a practical fighting system, because no Wing Chun Fighter ever success in MMA. I overcame that because I understand that MMA has its rules, and Wing Chun is a street fighting/ self defense system. So I managed to jump over that hurdle, as I have no intention in learning a system for sport.

Here is the biggest hurdle which I have been trying to jump or climb over for the last few months and losing motivation. After more research in Wing Chun on other sites, and from this forum. I now know that there are so many styles of Wing Chun, some Wing Chun systems have more form in their system then my current studying system. I am in the Yip Man lineage. Then there are also the political aspect in Wing Chun, different lineage, and so on. Just searching on the SLT form online, I see so many versions.

Can other members please help me to overcome this big hurdle which I still fail to climb over.

[Runlikehell]

Wing Chun is Wing Chun is Wing Chun. Don't let the politics and lineage wars get into your head (like I did for a time). If what you do works for you, then stick with it but make sure you're happy with it.

[mvbrown21]

Here is the biggest hurdle which I have been trying to jump or climb over for the last few months and losing motivation. After more research in Wing Chun on other sites, and from this forum. I now know that there are so many styles of Wing Chun, some Wing Chun systems have more form in their system then my current studying system. I am in the Yip Man lineage. Then there are also the political aspect in Wing Chun, different lineage, and so on. Just searching on the SLT form online, I see so many versions.

Can other members please help me to overcome this big hurdle which I still fail to climb over.

I know I've made some controversial statements of late but I hope my word can help.

The lineage/style of WC doesn't matter so much as the quality of the teacher. Some put a lot of stock into their Sifu's right away and give him an almost God-like persona. Personally I wouldn't recommend putting any stock into your Sifu until he has proven himself to you as much as you have proven yourself to him.

There are many different styles of good teaching out there. One thing I learned back when I was with the Fire Department was that, as a 'proby', you were going to get one of two styles of Captains. The one who is completely committed to your training and will bend over backwards to show you how to do just about everything. And the one who acts like he wants as little to do with you as possible. The latter won't lead you astray but he leaves the learning up to how bad you really want it, forcing you to figure out a lot of things on your own. Now, it's obvious, which Captain 99% of the 'probies' would go for if they had a choice. The interesting thing, however, was that the committed, goal-getter Captains pushed out robots, by-the-book clones of themselves, while the Captains that appeared to not care pushed out capable, think for themselves, problem solving kind of guys, whom were overall more efficient on the fireground. It seems backwards, doesn't it?

Myself, being one of the lucky ones,(who didn't think he was too lucky at the time!!), realized that by my Captain giving me nothing more than the basic tools of the job, it forced me to adapt my own body and mind uniquely to myself. Sure there were "principles" of firefighter safety that he would be quick to correct me on but ultimately at the end of the day, he couldn't show me how to chop through a roof or drag a 250lb hoseline any better than my body itself could make work. His body and his movement wasn't mine no matter how much our movements might have mirrored each other. So he didn't even try and by him doing that, I learned how to become more efficient with my physical tasks and to think outside the box.

The point is, that WC itself, regardless of lineage, are that basic set of tools. You might use the screwdriver like the label says or you might use it to stab open a can of beans. You might try to muscle that bolt off with the wrench or you might use a cheater bar to help you out. All that matters in your training is that someone shows you what each tool does and how it's 'normally' used. The rest is up to you with what you want to do with it!!

Good luck...


"The second-hand artist blindly following his sensei or sifu accepts his pattern. As a result, his action and, more importantly, his thinking become mechanical. His responses become automatic, according to set patterns, making him narrow and limited." -Bruce Lee

[LoneTiger108]

My dear Hendrik I simply asked for clarification on your oringnal post

Hendrik: If one look at the distinct different between the Yik Kam SLT and the CLF set of Cho family, one will see how Cho family evolve their art.

1. Are you implying that the Cho Family have evolved the YIK KAM SLT into a CLF set?

OR

2. That in "addition" to the YIK Kam SLT the Cho family created a CLF set were one will see this evolution?

Just a simple answer 1 or 2 to clarify your opinion / statement.

I don't think ANY straight answers will come to us here :eek: And as much as I would like to be able to take what Hendrik discusses seriously I find it very hard to when he himself has not goy ANY material on film that show us what HE is doing with his evolved training ideas now! ;)

And this is an area, as you know, I have much interest in...

[ntc]

mvbrown21 --> thank you for sharing your story. It was very refreshing and encouraging.

[Hendrik]

My dear Hendrik I simply asked for clarification on your oringnal post

Hendrik: If one look at the distinct different between the Yik Kam SLT and the CLF set of Cho family, one will see how Cho family evolve their art.

1. Are you implying that the Cho Family have evolved the YIK KAM SLT into a CLF set?

OR

2. That in "addition" to the YIK Kam SLT the Cho family created a CLF set were one will see this evolution?

Just a simple answer 1 or 2 to clarify your opinion / statement.





OK.


Technical speaking.


1, Yes, that particular CLF set is a fusion of some Yik Kam SLT concept and CLF dynamics.


2, These CLF evolution can be seen within the CLF set and also other set such as the drunken set and also some Kuen Kuit which is hybrid of CLF and WCK terms. IMHO, The existance of these evolution is to have both mobility of CLF and details elegant point of contact handling of SLT.


In fact, technically, these fusion is beautiful and it is a good solution which answer even some of the needs of today's mmA.


So, from these sets, one can derive what happen in Cho Dak-Shing era, what Cho Dak Shing face, and how solution are put together.

That is how via these set one can look into what is likely happen in the era.


These hybrid is a beautifull piece of art however it is not everyone's piece of cake because to be able to have CLF's mobility structure and WCK's smooth and high density point of contact handling means decades of blood and sweat in additional to talent.

[Hendrik]

Facts? So you have been to the Cho Village's and to the 19 schools and meet

with the Elders that still remember been taught by Cho Dak Sing and asked them their age.



I have not visited Cho village yet.


so,

Since you have visited them ;

please share with us when is Cho Shun and Cho Dak Sing passed away, and at what age are the elders at that time and how long they train with my sijo Cho Dak Sing?

I always have room to learn from anyone.

Thanks in advance.








Pure as in not mixed with CLF, unchanged as in not altered since it's teaching from Yik Kam.

Not my words

but from the head Cho family (son of Cho Cheun) who made this statement in a gathering of Wing Chun master from all over Gwondung province.




I am not there when Cho Cheun's son give the speech, So I dont know what you are refering to.









As for your VDO clips, is this what your statement is based on, is this your research.

Have you visited either?

Don't you continuously defend your Tai Chi clips by saying you can not judge what you can not see and must "bai si" to get the goods?


Since this is about Cho family Yik Kam's teaching, So let's focus on is there possible a PURE and UNCHANGE according to Yik Kam's teaching.



Those Videos clips which is in my previous post are a FACTURE REALITY of what is practice today.

Do you agree?


So, which Videos clip shows PURE and UNCHANGE Yik Kam's teaching?



GM Cheong Wai Poh in the Youtube clip is the legitimate student of late GM Sam Chan,
GM Sam Chan is the grand student of Yik Kam. GM Cheong spend years and years with his sifu until his sifu passed away. He is one of the oldest generation in today's Cho family tree.

http://operawingchun.blogspot.com/

So, GM Cheong's clip is one legitimate data of Cho family practice.

is that PURE and UNCHANGE Yik Kam's teaching?







If I were to put 2 links to your "Sihengs" vdo clips on Youtube would that be a fair indicator of the Wing Chun you practise?


in fact I have post them,

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1094693&postcount=1

and

here another one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMVsWwjcOAQ



and the following is a sample of the Cho WCK of my Sifu who learn from GM Cho On and GM Cho Chuen and GM Sam Chan, also attached at the end is a letter from my late Sifu Cho Hong Choi to me to let those who is interested have a data point on what happen at almost 40 years ago.

Late Sifu Cho Hong Choi is the student of GM Cho On and GM Cho Chuen, also GM Sam Chan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqHE5A4LC80


The above are the snap shorts of Cho family art over past 50 years and more then four generations.



For me,
I dont mind to let the world see what it is as it is, how things evolve.
I am ok with different people evolve their arts be it my siheng or who it is. it is their art their training and they are free to choose their path.
Those are facts of life in the world I am living in. and I am just open with it.




In my world of martial art, evolution/ changes is un avoidable due to different people different living condition.....etc.

Even within myself, my WCK evolve since 30 years ago when I first learn the 108 SLT set.
That is a reality which I am not shy to tell the world.

[YouKnowWho]

so in stead of Fa jin is the 1/5. Fa Jin is the based of everything.


Thus, your handling such as the following is problematic


because there is no such thing on " we just have to do the best we can in the certain area (such as Fajin) and move on."

One cant move if the power generation platform surge. and knowing not the characteristics and handling of the power generation platform is a kiss of death because the same technics always has a power generation platform dependency.

and

Advance TCMA is dealing with these power surge.
I just realized that I have not responsed to your comment on this. This part of discussion is more interested to me.

One may spend the rest of his life trying to punch as power as Mike Tyson, that day may never come. TCMA is much much more than just a powerful punch.

You believe 2 doors, snake engine, 6 direction vector force, ... all those "solo" training" can make you a better fighter. I believe only training with a life opponent can achieve that. You believe "solo" training is the most important part. I believe the solo training can only "enhance" your combat ability after you have "developed" it from 2 men drills, and also "tested" it by sparring/wrestling. Without completing the "developing" stage and "testing" stage, there will be nothing to "enhance" on.

When I mentioned:

1. 時間(Shi Jian) - timing,
2. 機会(Ji Hui) - opportunity
3. 角度(Jiao Du) - angle
4. 力的使用(Li De Shi Yong) - Fajin
5. 平衡(Ping Heng) - balance

Fajin is only 1/5 of the combat requirement.

All 5 requirements involve with "opponent" and cannot be done in "solo". Without a life resistence opponent in front of you, timing, opportunity, angle won't make any sense. The balance has to do with when you apply your move on your opponent's body and that affect your balance. It's not just your own balance in solo situation (solo balance is just too easy). The Fajin has to do with how to generate power on your opponent's body and not just striking into the thin air.

If you can create a chance to let your opponent to run into your punch, you don't need 100% Faijin either. This is my favor clip for the striking art argument. The other 4 requirements (timing, opportunity, angle, balance) also play important role here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31h5gbazwU

[Hendrik]

You believe 2 doors, snake engine, 6 direction vector force, ... all those "solo" training" can make you a better fighter.



Nope ,

2 doors, snake engine, 6 direction vectors force are Instantaneous training, those are the training developing instantaneously be able to handle and generate power surge.

[YouKnowWho]

Some TCMA systems just spend too much time in the "solo" training and totally ignore timing, opportunity, angle, ... as if the word "opponent" doesn't even exist.

[Hendrik]

Wing Chun is Wing Chun is Wing Chun. Don't let the politics and lineage wars get into your head (like I did for a time). If what you do works for you, then stick with it but make sure you're happy with it.


I agree with you.

Just do what works for one and feel happy with it.

[Ozzy Dave]

I am new to Wing Chun, after reading a lot more on this forum, and also researching on WingChunPedia. I am getting more confuse and losing motivation.

Wing Chun is a great system. There are many, many people practising it around the world so there is bound to be a lot of disagreement.

It is however, direct and simple as all the ways of attacking the opponent generally use the same method of generating force while some other systems train a variety of ways.

Also, the prime strategy is to make the opponent play your game not adapt to the opponents, again different from some other styles with a larger curriculum.

I personally like these two characteristics very much but just remember as I’ve heard the Old Hands say - Wing Chun is easy to learn, hard to master.

Dave

[theo]

Some TCMA systems just spend too much time in the "solo" training and totally ignore timing, opportunity, angle, ... as if the word "opponent" doesn't even exist.

i was on business travel the past week and wasn't able to jump in here as often, but looks like there was some good discussion.

YKW, the solo training is to develop the body and mind, enabling it to be able to handle the nuances of power generation as described by Hendrik (quite well I might add with the mechanical analogy). Nowhere does he say this is the only thing that is done or that just by doing this one will can become an excellent fighter.

Timing, distance, etc all of those things are certainly to be considered in application. imo, the solo training and application are two parts of the complete picture, hendrik is only referring to the solo training part of it in this case

[theo]

I agree with you.

Just do what works for one and feel happy with it.

life's full of choices isn't it?

[Hendrik]

i was on business travel the past week and wasn't able to jump in here as often, but looks like there was some good discussion.

YKW, the solo training is to develop the body and mind, enabling it to be able to handle the nuances of power generation as described by Hendrik (quite well I might add with the mechanical analogy). Nowhere does he say this is the only thing that is done or that just by doing this one will can become an excellent fighter.

Timing, distance, etc all of those things are certainly to be considered in application. imo, the solo training and application are two parts of the complete picture, hendrik is only referring to the solo training part of it in this case



These type of CLOSE LOOP solo practice is actually help one to perform better in dual make a heaven and earth different with a Close loop training.