A Clip

[k gledhill]

....all I am saying :D kidding. its a good breakdown showing development of each others 'parts' , elbows in, hips with elbows, timing, distance , wu sao integrity, alignment of strikes, angling off line of force tactically, countering with attacking actions, "cutting the way" aka lateral shifting with opponents movement while facing...
just sharing.
enjoy. BTW the Youngster is only 17 and has been training for 4 months.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwCuIvbWYa4&feature=player_embedded

[bennyvt]

**** good for 4 months.

[Hardwork108]

....all I am saying :D kidding. its a good breakdown showing development of each others 'parts' , elbows in, hips with elbows, timing, distance , wu sao integrity, alignment of strikes, angling off line of force tactically, countering with attacking actions, "cutting the way" aka lateral shifting with opponents movement while facing...
just sharing.
enjoy. BTW the Youngster is only 17 and has been training for 4 months.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwCuIvbWYa4&feature=player_embedded

Your roots are "different" from the way I practice. Also, there is also the usual going back during that we don't practice.

I guess differences in methodolgies are given when it comes to kung fu training and practice....

[k gledhill]

The ' going back ' is angling and back relative to the line of force
Incoming. We use movement from chum kil / knives. Standing in front of 2 lines of force that can each come randomly at speed can be 1/2'ed by this idea. The resulting angling gives a facing counter to a non facing entry. We adopt both roles so we also train to intuitively re-face a guy angling or moving to a flank as we enter. Distance and facing with cadence, speed balance, force ...

[Dantien]

The old guy in the track suit is leaning forward too much which doesn't make a good strong structure. There is also too much shoulder lifting and muscle tension present that I can see.

Hopefully these bad habits don't crossover on to the young student.

[Hardwork108]

The old guy in the track suit is leaning forward too much which doesn't make a good strong structure. There is also too much shoulder lifting and muscle tension present that I can see.

Hopefully these bad habits don't crossover on to the young student.

I agree and I have some doubts about his rooting, but I don't want to start World War 3 here.

Also, as I mentioned, going back is a not something that is encouraged in the Mainland Chinese Wing Chun that I study, unless during an emergency when one step is taken back to recover oneself and the central line.

I guess it is a matter of different lineages and all that...

In my Chow Gar training, going back was not encouraged either in practice. I know of at least one other respected sifu in London (where I practiced Chow Gar) who does not train his students to go back.

I believe that this kung fu approach has to do with the idea of not giving ground, and lets face it, if you are in a real fight you go in to finish the job and not "spar", specially when there could be a danger giving your opponent time to pull a weapon or of one being attacked by his friends if the fight turns into some kind of sparring match.

Unfortunately, to learn the art of "not going back" one has to practice advanced Kung fu levels/concepts/skills (fine-tuned sensitivity/"listening" abilities; real close range power, potent body unity and roots, etc - which are not so easily sellable in todays fast food society.

[YouKnowWho]

"not going back"

No matter how strong your opponent's attack may be, you will never go back is a very important TCMA training. In the old time, you draw a small circle around you to make sure that you don't move back out of that circle.

On the other extream, you have to be able to move back faster than your opponent's advance. If you can move back 10 feet in one backward jump, you will be able to remove your opponent's momentum advantage away.

[Hardwork108]

No matter how strong your opponent's attack may be, you will never go back is a very important TCMA training. In the old time, you draw a small circle around you to make sure that you don't move back out of that circle.

I am glad that you agree. It seems that the message of "not going back" has been lost in today's modern "kung fu" training. As I mentioned before, I believe the special skills that are needed for one to maintain his ground in a fight are nowadays unknown to some "sifus" and those who know may not bother to teach it to just anyone who walks into their kwoon.

However, I believe that just trying to understand the mindset of not going back and what is needed to accomplish it in practice will point the finger towards some of the lesser known TCMA aspects or "secrets".


On the other extream, you have to be able to move back faster than your opponent's advance. If you can move back 10 feet in one backward jump, you will be able to remove your opponent's momentum advantage away.

That makes sense too.

[JamesC]

No matter how strong your opponent's attack may be, you will never go back is a very important TCMA training. In the old time, you draw a small circle around you to make sure that you don't move back out of that circle.

On the other extream, you have to be able to move back faster than your opponent's advance. If you can move back 10 feet in one backward jump, you will be able to remove your opponent's momentum advantage away.

We used to make people drill and spar with their back to the wall if they made it a bad habit. It worked pretty well.

[k gledhill]

We use a lot of mobility to fight, I would add that its more about attacking [forward] that is a better idea, than not going back at all rigidly. We try not to go back in a straight line ergo angling offside the line of force as we are countering.
From drilling we keep forward intent not backwards :D seung ma toi ma drills using the tan sao as the role playing entering/stepping line of force.
The distances of the 2 guys are the same when the step angling back is done, so that the angler doesn't lose striking distances as the attacker comes in. As they come we angle with their cadence , force is exchanged to prepare for the no contact to contact when fighting/sparring from distance to entry.

Knives use this idea of strategy, missing in a lot of vt, ergo back and forth eggbeaters from hell punching , so many would not know it as a tactical idea if they didnt learn it.

The size difference would explain the lean and the higher arms ie, bong, from the youngster...

[Graham H]

The ' going back ' is angling and back relative to the line of force
Incoming. We use movement from chum kil / knives. Standing in front of 2 lines of force that can each come randomly at speed can be 1/2'ed by this idea. The resulting angling gives a facing counter to a non facing entry. We adopt both roles so we also train to intuitively re-face a guy angling or moving to a flank as we enter. Distance and facing with cadence, speed balance, force ...

These guys have no idea what you are on about Kev. Co-operation, developing the correct skills and ideas through the correct training methods is not present in their WC schools. From their posts its easy to see that they are in wing chun la la land as we used to be. No point in conferring with them.

The whole idea of Seung Ma/Toi Ma (pushing) and the reasons for going back is not part of their training otherwiswe they wouldn't respond with such rubbish answers. Never going back (as one muppet said) shows that he has never fought anything else but his reflection.

FFS one guy (dantien) is picking faults in Nedrets movements!!! Nedret is a good coach and his Ving Tsun is good. Maybe Dantien should go to his school and Nedret can talk with his hands!!! He doesn't take any BS!!!

GH

[k gledhill]

I know a majority have no clues but at least they hear the thinking ; )

[Jim Roselando]

Quotes from Graham & Kevin:

These guys have no idea "G"

They are in wing chun la la land "G"

I know a majority have no clues "K"


(as one """muppet""" said) shows that he has never fought anything else but his reflection............. "G"


***

I know it must seem all warm and fuzzy in your little WC Universe, especially considering all you do and know is superb, BUT, the only thing both of you are doing is repeating nonsense and to this day not one clip of anything other than WC "EXERCISES" with other WC "PEOPLE". :eek:


Yes! Sad fact boys. Chi Sao, Gor Sao, etc. "no matter how much you turn up the intensity" are still just training exercises.... Nothing more, nothing less. Now, since WC is a fighting art why not show some of that superior Kung Fu being used against other arts rather than against your own students.................. ;)


Yawn :cool:

[Hardwork108]

These guys have no idea what you are on about Kev. Co-operation, developing the correct skills and ideas through the correct training methods is not present in their WC schools.
Too much co-operation in the kwoon can get you killed in the street. You can however, co-operate a little but still not go backward.;)


From their posts its easy to see that they are in wing chun la la land as we used to be. No point in conferring with them.

Actually, the concept of not going back is TCMA concept. However, and unfortunately nowadays, most Wing Chun is practiced as a none-TCMA art. The TCMA essence has been taken out of it in favor of flash and razzmataz, making it more like standardized one dimensional kickboxing than an actual kung fu style with its various dimensions, ranges, energies and so on.


The whole idea of Seung Ma/Toi Ma (pushing) and the reasons for going back is not part of their training otherwiswe they wouldn't respond with such rubbish answers. Never going back (as one muppet said) shows that he has never fought anything else but his reflection.

Don't underestimate my reflection.;)


FFS one guy (dantien) is picking faults in Nedrets movements!!!
There are right ways of doing a given kung fu style and there are wrong ways. The question is wether what is presented is an actual TCMA or a shadow of an actual TCMA.



Nedret is a good coach and his Ving Tsun is good. Maybe Dantien should go to his school and Nedret can talk with his hands!!! He doesn't take any BS!!!


No one said that "Nedret" cannot fight and no martial artist should "take BS", but they should take constructive criticisms in order to improve. If given TCMA concepts, such as not liftng the shoulder; not going back, and rooting, are unfamiliar to them they are obliged to investigate the logic behind those concepts, that is if they are actually practicing a given TCMA, and not just a shadow of it....

[k gledhill]

The old guy in the track suit is leaning forward too much which doesn't make a good strong structure. There is also too much shoulder lifting and muscle tension present that I can see.

Hopefully these bad habits don't crossover on to the young student.


Quotes from Graham & Kevin:

These guys have no idea "G"

They are in wing chun la la land "G"

I know a majority have no clues "K"


(as one """muppet""" said) shows that he has never fought anything else but his reflection............. "G"


***

I know it must seem all warm and fuzzy in your little WC Universe, especially considering all you do and know is superb, BUT, the only thing both of you are doing is repeating nonsense and to this day not one clip of anything other than WC "EXERCISES" with other WC "PEOPLE". :eek:


Yes! Sad fact boys. Chi Sao, Gor Sao, etc. "no matter how much you turn up the intensity" are still just training exercises.... Nothing more, nothing less. Now, since WC is a fighting art why not show some of that superior Kung Fu being used against other arts rather than against your own students.................. ;)


Yawn :cool:

Jim I simply posted a clip....the rest I expected; )
Have no clue about my explanations.

Many have never heard knife tactics..or held knives in years of training VT....that is my response....no clue.

If we fight with weapons you don't stand rigidly not moving back against wall...: )

The youngsters been training 4 months.....

[Straight Left]

Liked the clip Kev. Surprised (or not) by the negativity. Decent beginner attempt at lap sau drill etc.

[Graham H]

Quotes from Graham & Kevin:

These guys have no idea "G"

They are in wing chun la la land "G"

I know a majority have no clues "K"


(as one """muppet""" said) shows that he has never fought anything else but his reflection............. "G"


***

I know it must seem all warm and fuzzy in your little WC Universe, especially considering all you do and know is superb, BUT, the only thing both of you are doing is repeating nonsense and to this day not one clip of anything other than WC "EXERCISES" with other WC "PEOPLE". :eek:


Yes! Sad fact boys. Chi Sao, Gor Sao, etc. "no matter how much you turn up the intensity" are still just training exercises.... Nothing more, nothing less. Now, since WC is a fighting art why not show some of that superior Kung Fu being used against other arts rather than against your own students.................. ;)


Yawn :cool:

So why practice Ving Tsun at all Mr. All Seeing Eye???

Ving Tsun should improve our base fighting skills should we ever have to use it in the "street". If it does not then that is down to the person using it and not the system. How can we best prepare for a violent encounter?????? I suppose you think that by going and sparring with other styles that may do it do you??? The truth is nothing can prepare you totally for a violent encounter and the truth will never be revealed until it is over.

The best we can assure ourselves is that prior to VT training we may have less of a chance than with it and no more. Victory is never certain no matter who you are. We aint supermen!!!!

The system I practice IMO makes the whole process of fighting more simple, efficient and direct. The only thing that detracts the effectiveness of VT is the human factor. The other systems I have experienced makes the fighting process harder and less effective by hanging off peoples arms, trying to sense this stupid energy, and thinking that the style was invented by a woman so therefore we can win a fight by being soft......anybody that thinks that is a f***ing a**hole!!!...........IMO of course!!!

GH

[Sean66]

@Hardwork108

Actually, the concept of not going back is TCMA concept.

It seems to me that the classical texts (ok, I'm no expert and I certainly haven't read them all) on chinese military strategy and martial arts all talk about knowing when to attack and when to retreat; knowing when to run an opponent down and when to lure him into a counter-attack.

Even in taijiquan, the skills of "sticking" and "adhering" are not to be interpreted as "never going back" or "never taking a step back".
From the taiji classics: "Song of Retreat....We must avoid fullness and emphasize emptiness so that our opponent lands on nothing. To fail to retreat when retreat is called for is neither wise nor courageous. A retreat is really an advance if we can turn it into a counter-attack."

The best scenario, and I'm sure you agree, is to avoid confrontation completely. If it can't be avoided, then escape is the answer. If already engaged, then one can use going back strategically to gain the advantage, especially against a stronger opponent.

"The skillful warrior attacks so that the enemy cannot defend; He defends so that the enemy cannot attack." Art of War

This is exactly what is being trained in the lap sau exercise shown in the video. Angling back and letting the attack fall into emptiness while countering with the fook/jum sau.
The attacker, in turn, tries to cut off this (strategic) retreat before it can be used as an effective counter attack by using the diagonal advancing footwork. As a result, both partners are training the timing and positioning necessary for gaining a strategic advantage - attacking so that the enemy cannot defend, and defending so that the enemy cannot attack, as Sun-tzu puts it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Facing an opponent NOT going back ( not having strategic retreating footwork) is one of the best things that can happen to a grappler, LOL !
Silly not to have the ability to hit while retreating.
Look at Lidell and many others that can even KO a guy while moving back.
Why NOT have the weapon in your arsenal?

[Buddha_Fist]

Also, as I mentioned, going back is a not something that is encouraged in the Mainland Chinese Wing Chun that I study, unless during an emergency when one step is taken back to recover oneself and the central line.

That's the intent. Doing so without putting you in a unfavorable position needs to be trained. You control distance and angle of your position by doing a small step while going seemlessly back to punching.


I believe that this kung fu approach has to do with the idea of not giving ground, and lets face it, if you are in a real fight you go in to finish the job and not "spar", specially when there could be a danger giving your opponent time to pull a weapon or of one being attacked by his friends if the fight turns into some kind of sparring match..

$hit happens in a fight. You have to train how to adapt to it when it happens. If you only know how to go forward, you are basically telling me that you have no footwork and are unable to adapt.


Unfortunately, to learn the art of "not going back" one has to practice advanced Kung fu levels/concepts/skills (fine-tuned sensitivity/"listening" abilities; real close range power, potent body unity and roots, etc - which are not so easily sellable in todays fast food society.

Fantasy-fu! To be proficient at putting continuous pressure into a relentless attack (a Ving Tsun tenet), you don't have to join the secret handshake club. Simply train realistically and with the right coaching. To train a relentless attack you gotta have the ability to adapt, not just by means of hand motions, but with your whole body through footwork - and that includes taking steps back when required. Toi-Mah.

[YouKnowWho]

We used to make people drill and spar with their back to the wall if they made it a bad habit. It worked pretty well.

There is still a difference between "want to back up but can't" vs. "can back up but try not to". I believe the latter one is much harder to achieve.

There is also a difference between "be able to retreat but try not to" vs. "Always retreat even no need to". It's a training process. If you always retreat whenever your opponent advances, you will never be able to develop the proper combat spirit.

TCMA saying said, "1. 勇(Yong) - courage, 2. 力(Li) - strength, 3. 功夫(Gong Fu) - CMA skill". The courage (not to back up) may be more important than your strength and CMA skill.


Facing an opponent NOT going back ( not having strategic retreating footwork) is one of the best things that can happen to a grappler, LOL !
Agree! If you are a grappler, you prefer the distance to be closer than futher apart. When your opponent moves in toward you, it saves your effort to move in toward him.

[k gledhill]

@Hardwork108


It seems to me that the classical texts (ok, I'm no expert and I certainly haven't read them all) on chinese military strategy and martial arts all talk about knowing when to attack and when to retreat; knowing when to run an opponent down and when to lure him into a counter-attack.

Even in taijiquan, the skills of "sticking" and "adhering" are not to be interpreted as "never going back" or "never taking a step back".
From the taiji classics: "Song of Retreat....We must avoid fullness and emphasize emptiness so that our opponent lands on nothing. To fail to retreat when retreat is called for is neither wise nor courageous. A retreat is really an advance if we can turn it into a counter-attack."

The best scenario, and I'm sure you agree, is to avoid confrontation completely. If it can't be avoided, then escape is the answer. If already engaged, then one can use going back strategically to gain the advantage, especially against a stronger opponent.

"The skillful warrior attacks so that the enemy cannot defend; He defends so that the enemy cannot attack." Art of War

This is exactly what is being trained in the lap sau exercise shown in the video. Angling back and letting the attack fall into emptiness while countering with the fook/jum sau.
The attacker, in turn, tries to cut off this (strategic) retreat before it can be used as an effective counter attack by using the diagonal advancing footwork. As a result, both partners are training the timing and positioning necessary for gaining a strategic advantage - attacking so that the enemy cannot defend, and defending so that the enemy cannot attack, as Sun-tzu puts it.

glad to hear someones on the same page :D Its a very precise spot to drill in chi-sao it sounds easy.

[k gledhill]

Facing an opponent NOT going back ( not having strategic retreating footwork) is one of the best things that can happen to a grappler, LOL !
Silly not to have the ability to hit while retreating.
Look at Lidell and many others that can even KO a guy while moving back.
Why NOT have the weapon in your arsenal?

The angling strike/kick is also done on the dummy last section....Knives use it too. all hips elbows facing off line with force generated at a specific point and aligned on our centers . The drills we do also use bad alignment on this idea, bad balance, etc...so the attacker learns to face and fire from the resulting exchange rather than pre-set responses....both vt fighters work counter or attack. One going forwards the other sideback :D

I see this in ufc fights all the time, in fact with liddel ko'ing Couture if Im not mistaken...angling strike to jaw as couture attacked forwards near the cage wall, Lidell angled off for space and hit at the same time....a thing of beauty.

[k gledhill]

There is still a difference between "want to back up but can't" vs. "can back up but try not to". I believe the latter one is much harder to achieve.

There is also a difference between "be able to retreat but try not to" vs. "Always retreat even no need to". It's a training process. If you always retreat whenever your opponent advances, you will never be able to develop the proper combat spirit.

TCMA saying said, "1. 勇(Yong) - courage, 2. 力(Li) - strength, 3. 功夫(Gong Fu) - CMA skill". The courage (not to back up) may be more important than your strength and CMA skill.


Agree! If you are a grappler, you prefer the distance to be closer than futher apart. When your opponent moves in toward you, it saves your effort to move in toward him.

We backangle up in the same distance that the attack comes forwards....so we dont have our force/distance stolen by simple entry to us.
This can be shown by hitting someone with force to move them back a few feet on the chest as they stand with no motion , hit their pec muscle, then have them step 2 inches towards you as you do same punch....you start to get a 'pushy' punch...step straight backwards to compensate and they wail on you with both hands....angle and you get one side or the other, depending what they lead with, step in or not....over reach to hit us, lose balance, steps wrong....and thats just the guy attacking forwards :D
VT presents itself as an opportunistic method of capitalizing on fighters mistakes in real time, here and now, now prearranged statue blocks.
I have seen guys in ufc/bellator do this and get ko'd simply because more punches rained in and one connected as they moved back in a straight line.

[k gledhill]

Liked the clip Kev. Surprised (or not) by the negativity. Decent beginner attempt at lap sau drill etc.

yeah, I was surprised at how long he was working the idea, hes getting good coaching .

[Hardwork108]

@Hardwork108


It seems to me that the classical texts (ok, I'm no expert and I certainly haven't read them all) on chinese military strategy and martial arts all talk about knowing when to attack and when to retreat; knowing when to run an opponent down and when to lure him into a counter-attack.

I am sure that you are correct. As I mentioned before, in our school we learn to go back, only in emergencies, by taking one step back to recover our Central Lines. However, the mindset is not that of going back but to flow through and "leak".


Even in taijiquan, the skills of "sticking" and "adhering" are not to be interpreted as "never going back" or "never taking a step back".
I am sure that in taijiquan, as in other kung fu styles, some teachers will teach you to go back as a matter of course.


From the taiji classics: "Song of Retreat....We must avoid fullness and emphasize emptiness so that our opponent lands on nothing. To fail to retreat when retreat is called for is neither wise nor courageous. A retreat is really an advance if we can turn it into a counter-attack."

I believe that we would all agree that there are times in our lives that we need to retreat wether it is in fighting or in other ventures. However, my Wing Chun (and Chow Gar) training prohibits it as a major strategy, limiting it to an emergency one. It seems that other TCMA style have this mindset, hence Youknowwho's comments earlier. Youknowwho is a sifu!


The best scenario, and I'm sure you agree, is to avoid confrontation completely. If it can't be avoided, then escape is the answer. If already engaged, then one can use going back strategically to gain the advantage, especially against a stronger opponent.

In my humble opinion, if you master the art of not going back (including all of its skill and faculty development implications) then you can "shock" the bigger opponent into defeat.


"The skillful warrior attacks so that the enemy cannot defend; He defends so that the enemy cannot attack." Art of War

Very true. That of course can apply to a situation when you are not going back, as well as to a situation when you are going back.


This is exactly what is being trained in the lap sau exercise shown in the video. Angling back and letting the attack fall into emptiness while countering with the fook/jum sau.
I know what you are saying, but you can also let the attack fall into emptiness by holding your ground. These require other skills, concepts and methodologies that are not taught in your run of the mill kung fu schools.



The attacker, in turn, tries to cut off this (strategic) retreat before it can be used as an effective counter attack by using the diagonal advancing footwork. As a result, both partners are training the timing and positioning necessary for gaining a strategic advantage - attacking so that the enemy cannot defend, and defending so that the enemy cannot attack, as Sun-tzu puts it.

I see the logic in the training but from a strict TCMA point of view this manner of training is very basic and can create bad habits.

High level practioners of kung fu can discipate force and react instantly without going back. To gain this kind of skill one will need a lot of chi kung training and other softness and "listening" development exercises, as well a solid, but mobile root and body unity, and the more internal the body unity, the better.

One would also need potent short range power, as there would be no point in "crowding" your opponent if you are not able to deliver a fight ending blow from short range.

Unfortunately, most kung fu that is taught nowadays is just a shell of what is really needed to be taught, that is why you have so many "kung fu" exponents searching for "answers" through cross training in non-TCMA styles.

[Hardwork108]

That's the intent. Doing so without putting you in a unfavorable position needs to be trained. You control distance and angle of your position by doing a small step while going seemlessly back to punching.
You can do all of that by maintaining your ground and/or "leaking" forward! However, right concepts, skill sets and faculties have to be taught by a KNOWING sifu!




$hit happens in a fight. You have to train how to adapt to it when it happens.

IMHO, one has to train to prevent $hit from happening as much as possible. That is why, if you are fighting for real, then you need to go in and finish it as soon as possible. This mindset is one of "wisdoms" behind this kind of strategy.



If you only know how to go forward, you are basically telling me that you have no footwork and are unable to adapt.

There is a lot more to this concept and strategy, then just going forward...


Fantasy-fu! To be proficient at putting continuous pressure into a relentless attack (a Ving Tsun tenet), you don't have to join the secret handshake club. Simply train realistically and with the right coaching. To train a relentless attack you gotta have the ability to adapt, not just by means of hand motions, but with your whole body through footwork - and that includes taking steps back when required. Toi-Mah.
As I stated before, one learns to take a step back in emergencies.

There is nothing "fantasy fu" about high level skills and faculties, the only thing that makes this stuff "fantasy" is the lack of genuine kung fu teaching in the world at large, resulting in so called "sifus" teaching basic level skills to their students, without paying attention to the advanced level concepts and principles, and more importantly the WISDOM behind them!

[Hardwork108]

yeah, I was surprised at how long he was working the idea, hes getting good coaching .

The beginner was pretty good....

[k gledhill]

@ Hardwork...i always think of Cali booty now :D...but on to less serious things.

Do you use weapons too ? if so how do you maneuver ? I ask because I'm curious how you transition from being static to evading a blade/s ala VT.

[Dantien]

FFS one guy (dantien) is picking faults in Nedrets movements!!! Nedret is a good coach and his Ving Tsun is good. Maybe Dantien should go to his school and Nedret can talk with his hands!!! He doesn't take any BS!!!

GH


Oh geez calm down. Can't take harmless constructive criticism in good stride? I meant no offense or to illicit a defensive response.

I'm sure he might be good, but from what I see he could be better, and if he isn't striving to be better and improve technique; then what is the point in training? Everyone has something to work on even if they are teaching.

If he is indeed well versed at the art like you assert, then he should already be aware of why what I previously pointed out are important and vital components to the system.

For what it's worth the young student has a bright future by the looks.

[Hardwork108]

@ Hardwork...i always think of Cali booty now :D...but on to less serious things.

Do you use weapons too ? if so how do you maneuver ? I ask because I'm curious how you transition from being static to evading a blade/s ala VT.

Who doesn't think of Cali booty?....:D

I don't use weapons as I have not gottent to that level yet. I don't live in Rio any more, so I don't train with my sifu regularly. I do my best to maintain my skills and use the literature that he provided me with.

I also train with him every time I go to Brasil. The last time was about 3 weeks ago, but again, the training is more about maintaining what I have.

I am estimating that within the next 3 years I will be living there again and will continue my training to the point of completing this intriguing Mainland Chinese lineage of Wing Chun.

And don't worry, once I start living in Rio again, I will entice you to fly over with videos of Brazilian Booties....:D

[Buddha_Fist]

You can do all of that by maintaining your ground and/or "leaking" forward! However, right concepts, skill sets and faculties have to be taught by a KNOWING sifu!

IMHO, one has to train to prevent $hit from happening as much as possible. That is why, if you are fighting for real, then you need to go in and finish it as soon as possible. This mindset is one of "wisdoms" behind this kind of strategy.

There is a lot more to this concept and strategy, then just going forward...As I stated before, one learns to take a step back in emergencies.

There is nothing "fantasy fu" about high level skills and faculties, the only thing that makes this stuff "fantasy" is the lack of genuine kung fu teaching in the world at large, resulting in so called "sifus" teaching basic level skills to their students, without paying attention to the advanced level concepts and principles, and more importantly the WISDOM behind them!

Precisely this kind of talk is what keeps Fantasy-Fu alive. Endless talk about hypothetical scenarios that only occur in the day-dreamers' minds.

I guess Joe Rogan's input is well deserved:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9L5vr3HKdE

[Hardwork108]

Precisely this kind of talk is what keeps Fantasy-Fu alive. Endless talk about hypothetical scenarios that only occur in the day-dreamers' minds.

I guess Joe Rogan's input is well deserved:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9L5vr3HKdE

In my opinion you practice a modern version of Wing Chun, as a result you have missed out on the kung fu essence of the style, and have ended up a kind of central line theory influenced kick boxing.

Nothing wrong with that by the way, except for the fact that it will limit your capability to hold credible discussions regarding authentic TCMA methodologies.

By the way, that does not necessarily say that you can´t fight, or that you are weak, etc. It just says that you lack authentic TCMA experience.

[Hardwork108]

Precisely this kind of talk is what keeps Fantasy-Fu alive. Endless talk about hypothetical scenarios that only occur in the day-dreamers' minds.

I guess Joe Rogan's input is well deserved:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9L5vr3HKdE

You do realize that Joe Rogan is talking about the same kind of kung fu schools that I am talking about, don't you?

Yes, he is talking about the majority Mcdojo types that most people study and learn "kung fu" fighting, without roots, body unity, short power, sensitivity and softness and so on.

Unfortunately for Rogan however, he has not experienced real TCMA training, but that is fine too, because most people haven't, so it is unlikely that he will be called on his kung fu clueless assumptions....

[Jim Roselando]

Graham wrote:

The system I practice IMO makes the whole process of fighting more simple, efficient and direct. "G"


***

Sadly all we have seen is common WC "training" which is all fine and dandy but let me help you out with something! Training is the boat that gets you across the river. Didn't WSL say: Finger @ Moon haha.... :)

And how do you judge if your Whole Process is working or not? By competing against other fighters "or" at least under more realistic pressure. Not WC vs WC! :eek: WSL was widely recognized for taking WC out and using it and not because he trained with Yip and never left his Kwoon.

Maybe someone can show JUST one clip of this awesome process being used against another fighter or under pressure.... WC training with WC is fun to watch but not much more than that amigo.

[Graham H]

Graham wrote:

The system I practice IMO makes the whole process of fighting more simple, efficient and direct. "G"


***

Sadly all we have seen is common WC "training" which is all fine and dandy but let me help you out with something! Training is the boat that gets you across the river. Didn't WSL say: Finger @ Moon haha.... :)

And how do you judge if your Whole Process is working or not? By competing against other fighters "or" at least under more realistic pressure. Not WC vs WC! :eek: WSL was widely recognized for taking WC out and using it and not because he trained with Yip and never left his Kwoon.

Maybe someone can show JUST one clip of this awesome process being used against another fighter or under pressure.... WC training with WC is fun to watch but not much more than that amigo.

Ok I agree with you. I guess it comes down to what one wants from their MA. Millions of people are involved in MA and not all of them are competition fighters. I would guess that there are some seriously handy folk out there that can fight well enough without MA but just enjoy training a certain style.

I know more "fighters" and scary dudes outside of MA....... FWIW.

If VT against VT is trained correctly with intelligent people who train hard enough then its fine. Just as boxers spar boxers and karate fighters spar karate fighters. You don't see people go onto Manny Pacquiao's website and tell him he can't call himself a fighter until he fights other styles do you?? The trouble is nowadays that the MMA bubble has given people big egos because are taught to fight all round. I saw an MMA fighter (not pro) get knocked out by a bum in a bar so its all relative!!

GH

[k gledhill]

Ironic but I know a few mma personally who want to learn VT for street fighting ...all saying they wouldn't use bjj in a street/ bar fight .
I have finished fights with kicks to head of guys I knocked over to ground. Gouged eyes..kidney punch guys covering up from attack....to name a few....never mind headbutts.

[Jim Roselando]

Graham wrote:


If VT against VT is trained correctly with intelligent people who train hard enough then its fine. Just as boxers spar boxers and karate fighters spar karate fighters. You don't see people go onto Manny Pacquiao's website and tell him he can't call himself a fighter until he fights other styles do you?? The trouble is nowadays that the MMA bubble has given people big egos because are taught to fight all round. I saw an MMA fighter (not pro) get knocked out by a bum in a bar so its all relative!!

***

Basically you were talking down to different people on this forum saying they were scrubs and fought nobodies but their shadows and now we find out you have only worked out with WC vs WC and never fought anyone??? hahaha :eek:

Remember your words:

These guys have no idea "G"

They are in wing chun la la land "G"

(as one """muppet""" said) shows that he has never fought anything else but his reflection............. "G"

Boxers and Karate people tend to Glove Up and fight as part of their training. It is not the whole ball of wax but an important part of their training. Boxers know the difference between training and sparring. They also fight with contact as you need to know what is like to knock someone down when they are trying to knock you down. (it is not easy BTW)

The chi sao bubble does not help prepare you for this so I also agree with you that most spar people from their own club but what you don't understand is Chi Sao is not sparring, it is an exercise. That is a true Bubble.

I am not a MMA guy, BUT, believe it is a good thing for the MA world. The only people who do not like MMA are those who don't don't like to test their stuff out. I know I know! Your stuff is street lethal...... hahahaha ;):D


Back to lurk mode!

Adios!

[Graham H]

Basically you were talking down to different people on this forum saying they were scrubs and fought nobodies but their shadows and now we find out you have only worked out with WC vs WC and never fought anyone??? hahaha :eek:



Uh hum!!! When did I say that I only worked out VT against VT Jim lad??? I have enough fighting experience outside of VT. Why broadcast it on a WC forum? I have worked out with other MA's with the view that if I meet somebody or a certain style that I think can make me improve more than WSLPBVT then I would follow that way. It hasn't happened yet.

GH

[Graham H]

but what you don't understand is Chi Sao is not sparring, it is an exercise.

Ha! Classic!!! :D I don't understand eh??? When did I say that as well??? Chi Sau is an exercise. An exercise to prepare you for sparring.

GH

[sanjuro_ronin]

While it is quite clear to stated that Boxers train vs other boxers and MT fighter train VS other MT fighters, there is also a difference.
First off, neither is training for "the street", but lets put that aside for now.
The real difference is that boxers and MT fighters are presented with what they typically WILL see in a real fight, same for MMA fighters.
That is NOT the case with the typical WC fighter.
The reason that boxing and MT translate do well into "the street" or outside their "comfort zone" is because they work natural, gross motor skills and work them very well.
In other words, boxers become natural fighters based on how the body naturally fights.
That is not the case with typical WC when trained VS typical WC.

When was the last time any saw some one attack another person on the street with a vertical punch or from a "chi sao" position? or coem at them with a "WC guard"?
Yet that is what WC fighters train against more often than not.

[Graham H]

That is NOT the case with the typical WC fighter.


.......agreed!!! and is the reason why I have moved around from lineage to lineage and ended up at WSLPBVT......because THAT Ving Tsun lineage is NOT typical!

[Hardwork108]

.......because THAT Ving Tsun lineage is NOT typical!

Well, thank god for that!:D

Hey, just kidding. ;)

The fact is. If you are happy with what you do, and can make it work, then that is great and at the end of the day, it is what really matters as far as your own path is concerned.

You have to however, appreciate why others may do it different from you, specially if they are using VALID TCMA concepts and strategies!

[couch]

Well, thank god for that!:D

Hey, just kidding. ;)

The fact is. If you are happy with what you do, and can make it work, then that is great and at the end of the day, it is what really matters as far as your own path is concerned.

You have to however, appreciate why others may do it different from you, specially if they are using VALID TCMA concepts and strategies!

This is the nicest thing you have posted since (several times) going on your diatribe that you have only the true Wing Chun with real lineage that is the most complete.

F*** all that BS about who has the real Wing Chun. What you said is truth:

"The fact is. If you are happy with what you do, and can make it work, then that is great and at the end of the day, it is what really matters as far as your own path is concerned."

[anerlich]

From their posts its easy to see that they are in wing chun la la land as we used to be. No point in conferring with them.

Don't feel under any pressure to confer with anyone, especially me. Just send emails to each other.

[Hardwork108]

This is the nicest thing you have posted since (several times) going on your diatribe that you have only the true Wing Chun with real lineage that is the most complete.

Can you show me where I have said that I "have only the true Wing Chun....etc."?

The fact is that most people who practice "kung fu" in this forum, are happy with what they do. Even those who cross train their kung fu to "improve" :rolleyes: it are happy as well. However, the fact remains that most people who train kung fu are not training it as genuine TCMA, but an empty, or almost empty shell.

This is the result of the effect of the Mcdojo phenomenon on the TCMAs and it effects over 95% of the kung fu schools out there, but again, if people are happy with what they are doing, then I am happy for them, specially if they can make it work in a combat or self defense situation. However, this does not mean that they are all practicing authentic TCMA methodologies.

F*** all that BS about who has the real Wing Chun. What you said is truth:


"The fact is. If you are happy with what you do, and can make it work, then that is great and at the end of the day, it is what really matters as far as your own path is concerned."
Very true. Some people choose the kung fu path, others choose the Karate path and yet others who choose a cross training and/or MMA path.

The secret is in recognizing one's path, and not refer to it as something which it isn't.;)

[Buddha_Fist]

In my opinion you practice a modern version of Wing Chun, as a result you have missed out on the kung fu essence of the style, and have ended up a kind of central line theory influenced kick boxing.

Nothing wrong with that by the way, except for the fact that it will limit your capability to hold credible discussions regarding authentic TCMA methodologies.

By the way, that does not necessarily say that you can´t fight, or that you are weak, etc. It just says that you lack authentic TCMA experience.

Are you able to show this fantastic "authentic TCMA experience" working in a real or competitive situation? Didn't think so... :rolleyes:


You do realize that Joe Rogan is talking about the same kind of kung fu schools that I am talking about, don't you?

Yes, he is talking about the majority Mcdojo types that most people study and learn "kung fu" fighting, without roots, body unity, short power, sensitivity and softness and so on.

Unfortunately for Rogan however, he has not experienced real TCMA training, but that is fine too, because most people haven't, so it is unlikely that he will be called on his kung fu clueless assumptions....

You know, you're right - he did not mean all those schools claiming having authentic knowledge from genuine mountain hermits and that never compete as their art is too deadly... and too authentic! He meant all those crappy schools that honestly showcase their skill through competitive comparison!

This cracks me up! :D

[Hardwork108]

Are you able to show this fantastic "authentic TCMA experience" working in a real or competitive situation? Didn't think so... :rolleyes:

I guess you are yet another one who has absolutely no clue as regards authentic
TCMA training, but again, if you are happy with what you are practicing then I am happy for you, but you entering TCMA discussions without an actual valid TCMA background, makes you a troll.



You know, you're right - he did not mean all those schools claiming having authentic knowledge from genuine mountain hermits and that never compete as their art is too deadly... and too authentic! He meant all those crappy schools that honestly showcase their skill through competitive comparison!

At last, we are on the same page.:rolleyes:


This cracks me up! :D
It wouldn't crack you up if you had an authentic TCMA background.:cool:

[anerlich]

an authentic TCMA background

According to Hendrik's thread, there is no such thing as authentic WC.

[Hardwork108]

According to Hendrik's thread, there is no such thing as authentic WC.

As long as there are unauthentic Wing Chun (and other kung fu) lineages and schools, there will be AUTHENTIC ones, as well!

Yin and Yang. ;)

[jesper]

Can you show me where I have said that I "have only the true Wing Chun....etc."?

The fact is that most people who practice "kung fu" in this forum, are happy with what they do. Even those who cross train their kung fu to "improve" :rolleyes: it are happy as well. However, the fact remains that most people who train kung fu are not training it as genuine TCMA, but an empty, or almost empty shell.

This is the result of the effect of the Mcdojo phenomenon on the TCMAs and it effects over 95% of the kung fu schools out there, but again, if people are happy with what they are doing, then I am happy for them, specially if they can make it work in a combat or self defense situation. However, this does not mean that they are all practicing authentic TCMA methodologies.

F*** all that BS about who has the real Wing Chun. What you said is truth:


Very true. Some people choose the kung fu path, others choose the Karate path and yet others who choose a cross training and/or MMA path.

The secret is in recognizing one's path, and not refer to it as something which it isn't.;)

Funny you dont even see the irony in your own posting

[Sean66]

@Hardwork108

You talk a lot about "authentic TCMA methodologies". I think it's time that (for the sake of the development of the discussion) you define precisely what you mean by this.

Thanks,
Sean

[couch]

Can you show me where I have said that I "have only the true Wing Chun....etc."?


You don't come right out and say it - but you INFER it. That is the underlying tone in every one of your posts. See here with the :rolleyes: and the other bit I've excerpted:



The fact is that most people who practice "kung fu" in this forum, are happy with what they do. Even those who cross train their kung fu to "improve" :rolleyes: it are happy as well. However, the fact remains that most people who train kung fu are not training it as genuine TCMA, but an empty, or almost empty shell.

However, this does not mean that they are all practicing authentic TCMA methodologies.


So let me ask you: do you believe that YOU possess a non-empty shell of TCMA? A complete system? Something that isn't lacking in any areas?

[LoneTiger108]

Wow! Same stuff. Different day :eek:

Still, glad to see the forum buzzing again...

[Hardwork108]

Funny you dont even see the irony in your own posting
You see "irony" because you misunderstand the concept that is being discussed...

[Hardwork108]

@Hardwork108

You talk a lot about "authentic TCMA methodologies". I think it's time that (for the sake of the development of the discussion) you define precisely what you mean by this.

Thanks,
Sean

Whatever discipline will have an authentic way and many unauthentic ways as to how it is done, performed or studied. TCMAs are no different.

I you study a distince style such Wing Chun kung fu, then you need to study it with its concepts and principles in tact. You need to study it in ALL of its ranges, without falling in the trap of thinking that it is ALL about close range fighting.

You need to practice the Chi kung and Internal aspects of the art.

You need to study Wing Chun's Chin-na/Kum-na approach.

You need to study Wing Chun's roots and its relationship to body unity and power.

You need to eventually develop Short Power, otherwise your actions at close range are limited in their effectiveness.

AND MORE!

All within this style's sometimes distinct concepts and principles. That will help make what you do AUTHENTIC.

So no, "I lift the shoulders when I punch, because this works for me", or "I use Tae Kwon Do jumping kicks in my Wing Chun, because it works for me", or even, " I use kickboxing foot work without WC rooting, because it gives me better ´mobility´, but I am still doing 'Wing Chun' and it is authentic, because I wish it to be"......

[Buddha_Fist]

Here's one of those genuine mountain hermits that teach secret and deadly traditional martial arts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd7M4H0b62k

:D

[LoneTiger108]

Whatever discipline will have an authentic way and many unauthentic ways as to how it is done, performed or studied. TCMAs are no different.

I have to stand by what I just posted on another thread. There is no 'authentic' system of Wing Chun, there are however authentic teachers, each having unique teaching styles that have survived from one generation to the next.

If anyone knows of a Teacher currently living that has a secret recipe for Wing Chun itself and not just their own take on the system, please message me :D

[Hardwork108]

I have to stand by what I just posted on another thread. There is no 'authentic' system of Wing Chun, there are however authentic teachers, each having unique teaching styles that have survived from one generation to the next.

I would say that there is no ONE authentic system of Wing Chun, but there are various lineages/schools/sifus that are authentic, that is, they teach the system while maintaining its distinct concepts, principles and corresponding methodologies.


If anyone knows of a Teacher currently living that has a secret recipe for Wing Chun itself and not just their own take on the system, please message me :D
You may have misunderstood my post. I was not talking about secret recipes for Wing Chun, but again, when you are discussing any discipline then you must take into account that there are wrong ways and right ways of doing it.

The wrong way, is usually the unauthentic way......

[Hardwork108]

Here's one of those genuine mountain hermits that teach secret and deadly traditional martial arts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd7M4H0b62k

:D

You have no clue about what is being discussed and are proving my point about people who have never practiced genuine TCMAs, but just empty shells....

[LoneTiger108]

I would say that there is no ONE authentic system of Wing Chun, but there are various lineages/schools/sifus that are authentic, that is, they teach the system while maintaining its distinct concepts, principles and corresponding methodologies.

I understand. But what you consider 'distinct' stuf is in fact the language of the ancestors. Most westerners, unfortunately, do not take that stuff seriously enough IMHO


The wrong way, is usually the unauthentic way......

Yes and no. :D;)

Wasn't it actually Ip Man that suggested that after proper training there is no wrong way? This is what I feel has been misinterpreted by the MMA WCK add-on crowds.

They simply have inproper foundations (according to TCMA) No traditional learning. BUT the same can be said for many of Ip Mans direct students!!!!

[Hardwork108]

You don't come right out and say it - but you INFER it. That is the underlying tone in every one of your posts. See here with the :rolleyes: and the other bit I've excerpted:

What I "infer" with ":rolleyes:" is the fact that most Wing Chun and other Kung Fu schools out there teach Mc Kung fu, or at best incomplete standardized commercial - empty or alsmost empty shell - versions, if you like.
That means most people who study "kung fu" are being taken for a ride, one way or another.

I believe that very few people here would argue with the fact that most kung fu schools out there are substandard. However, they all think that their understanding of kung fu is valid, which it definitely is not, and it is all over their posts and takes on Wing Chun and kung fu in general, and is reflected in the modern MMA inclinations of this whole forum!

So, it is not about me studying kung fu genuinly, as there are a few others here, but we are in the minority, and we do not see Ken Shamrock as a reference for good kung fu....




So let me ask you: do you believe that YOU possess a non-empty shell of TCMA?
It is not about "possessing" anything. It is about studying kung fu authentically, which I DO!



A complete system?
I study it COMPLETELY, the way it was meant to be studied, not some imcomplete standardized, including easy to teach version, for commercial purposes!

The system is rich and deals with the combat aspects holistically. I have never said that it possesses all the techniques in the book!



Something that isn't lacking in any areas?

The only thing lacking from kung fu schools and styles nowadays is authenticity and genuine sifus who know their arts and teach them COMPLETELY, including the aspects that most bird brains would find "boring" or "fantasy".

[Hardwork108]

I understand. But what you consider 'distinct' stuf is in fact the language of the ancestors. Most westerners, unfortunately, do not take that stuff seriously enough IMHO

Very true, and there are of course cultural reasons for it, but that is where most Westerners miss out.

They do not take some of the stuff that they don't understand seriously, hence they study the stuff that they see as "valid", while discarding the hard to understand stuff as "useless", "fantasy", "superstition", as well as the usual clueless takes such as, "this kind of striking/blocking is impractical. The master who developed this must have had one leg shorter than the other; crooked fingers; a glass eye, etc...."

At the end of the day you end up having incomplete Wing Chun being taught, and each generation of clueless students take out and add what they think the system needs, and they call it evolution, without realizing that to evolve any discipline, one needs to master it first, to develop complete understanding of all of its dimensions.




Yes and no. :D;)

Wasn't it actually Ip Man that suggested that after proper training there is no wrong way? This is what I feel has been misinterpreted by the MMA WCK add-on crowds.

You have hit the nail on the head!

How many people who "evolve" Wing Chun nowadays, have had PROPER training?

I believe that most people who "evolve" Wing Chun nowadays, to so to make teaching (selling) it easier, by simplifying/standardizing it. Of course, there are those who find the incomplete art that they have learned lacking (obviously) in the combat effectiveness department. So, they go on to "evolve" it by perhaps adding Tae Kwon Do kicks; Boxing hooks; BJJ ground fighting; Muay Thai, etc, etc.


They simply have inproper foundations (according to TCMA) No traditional learning.

I believe that we both agree on the fundamental importance of learning proper foundations.



BUT the same can be said for many of Ip Mans direct students!!!!

Which raises some very important questions. For example, could it be possible that not all who claim to be Ip Man's direct students, were his direct students?

Or, is it true that Ip Man did not teach everything to ALL of his students?

Is it possible that not all of Ip Man's direct students were "good" students?

Some say that Ip Man's passion in life was NOT teaching kung fu. That he only taught to survive economically? Could this be true?

Also, could it be that some of his students could not care less about correct foundations and tradition, as long as they had healthy standardized franchise kung fu businesses?

Having said that, I believe that not all of Ip Man's students had improper learning. So, that is something good.

[anerlich]

Wasn't it actually Ip Man that suggested that after proper training there is no wrong way?

Did you hear that from the man himself? Thought not.

[LoneTiger108]

Did you hear that from the man himself? Thought not.

You're a funny guy :D

A bit annoying, but funny all the same...

[Graham H]

...that's not annoying....it's true. Some people act like they knew Ip Man himself. The truth is we cannot be sure of anything. Most of the stories from years gone by would have been hyped up and distorted. It happens in all walks of life not just Ving Tsun. Just because you practice Kung Fu does not make you honest, humble and genuine. The truth is the people that have evolved Ving Tsun and passed it down could say anything they want and people will beleive. The stories of Ng Mui and the history of Ving Tsun show this exactly. It's not true. Thats a fact but how many people swear by it? Just like God and most religions. It's all stories!!

GH

[LoneTiger108]

True you say? You have actual evidence yourself that says Ng Mui did not exist? And Wing Chun herself too?? But you believe Leung Jan existed?? And Leung Yee Tai??

I'd love to see that... ;)

As for assessing everyones morality and behaviour here, you should take note of your own words sometimes I reckon :p

[Graham H]

I'll say what I like mate and not you or anybody else can make it otherwise apart from the moderators who spend enough time cleaning my posts up it seems.

As for Ng Mui....it doesn't surprise me one bit that you may beleive in it. There is no factual proof and that opinion is shared by many. These stories are myths. I beleive in facts and there are some facts with regards to the history of Ving Tsun. This system eveloved through trial and error and was kept in secret groups in a time of much civil unrest in China. I can be thankful to Yip Man - WSL - Philipp Bayer for the system I practice today but for fighting nuns and slight women who overcome villiage bullies its a no no. You only have to listen to the story to realize that it is fabricated. Some say that Ip Man invented these stories because the history is not known. Somebody had to make something up to please the public when all the other Chinese MA's have equally unbleleivabe stories joined to them.

Wing Chun was devised by a woman from watching a fight between two animals????????? BS!!!!!!!

Human beings have nothing in common with snakes, cranes and foxes. Maybe you would like to see my wild bore fist style because them bad boys are dangerous!! lmao

GH

[GlennR]

I'll say what I like mate and not you or anybody else can make it otherwise apart from the moderators who spend enough time cleaning my posts up it seems.

As for Ng Mui....it doesn't surprise me one bit that you may beleive in it. There is no factual proof and that opinion is shared by many. These stories are myths. I beleive in facts and there are some facts with regards to the history of Ving Tsun. This system eveloved through trial and error and was kept in secret groups in a time of much civil unrest in China. I can be thankful to Yip Man - WSL - Philipp Bayer for the system I practice today but for fighting nuns and slight women who overcome villiage bullies its a no no. You only have to listen to the story to realize that it is fabricated. Some say that Ip Man invented these stories because the history is not known. Somebody had to make something up to please the public when all the other Chinese MA's have equally unbleleivabe stories joined to them.

Wing Chun was devised by a woman from watching a fight between two animals????????? BS!!!!!!!

Human beings have nothing in common with snakes, cranes and foxes. Maybe you would like to see my wild bore fist style because them bad boys are dangerous!! lmao

GH

You been popping those testosterone pills again??
Either that or youve just reached puberty from reading your posts

[LoneTiger108]

Wing Chun was devised by a woman from watching a fight between two animals????????? BS!!!!!!!

Like I said, show me the evidence (either way!) NOBODY CAN!

And FWIW I never said 'I believe' in the Ng Mui myth (that's why I call it a myth/legend) but it does have VALUE, cultutally and morally, for Wing Chun students today.

Shame you miss that point entirely, and haven't read some of my other posts re: Ng Jung Sok and his story telling either :(

[CFT]

True you say? You have actual evidence yourself that says Ng Mui did not exist? And Wing Chun herself too?? But you believe Leung Jan existed?? And Leung Yee Tai??There are contemporaneous records of Jeung Jan's existence, and probably an official record in Gulao village. So at a push we can also believe in the existence of Leung Yee Tai, Wong Wah Bo, etc.

i.e. there is strong evidence that Wing Chun/Weng Chun came from the Opera boats.

Why is it such a surprise that a bunch of 'story tellers' should spin tales about the origin of their kung fu?

[Wayfaring]

i.e. there is strong evidence that Wing Chun/Weng Chun came from the Opera boats.

Or at least we can somewhat document its existence then. We don't know what happened before that although there are stories / folklore / oral tradition.

Obviously the people on the Opera boats had to learn things somewhere.

[CFT]

Or at least we can somewhat document its existence then. We don't know what happened before that although there are stories / folklore / oral tradition.

Obviously the people on the Opera boats had to learn things somewhere.Yes, I agree with you. The firm documentation comes from the opera period onwards.

[Graham H]

You been popping those testosterone pills again??
Either that or youve just reached puberty from reading your posts

Puberty is still 3 years away for me mate!

[Graham H]

but it does have VALUE, cultutally and morally, for Wing Chun students today.

Explain!!


Shame you miss that point entirely, and haven't read some of my other posts re: Ng Jung Sok and his story telling either.

....because I'm not interested. I don't care much for it TBH. I used to but now as Glenn says I'm heading towards puberty!

GH

[LoneTiger108]

There are contemporaneous records of Jeung Jan's existence, and probably an official record in Gulao village. So at a push we can also believe in the existence of Leung Yee Tai, Wong Wah Bo, etc.

Official record in Gulao (Kulo)? Right. Have you seen it? If not, then no proof. :rolleyes: My point I am making is that as a student you are kind of expected to believe your teachers stories, and a good teacher will tell you exactly that! He is repeating stories. It is actually up to the individual to complete his/her own research (like Sergio to be fair!)

My Sihing has seen the book written by Leung Jan on TCM, now held by the Ip family, so I take that as pretty hard evidence. But a book can also be faked!!


i.e. there is strong evidence that Wing Chun/Weng Chun came from the Opera boats.

From where exactly? Hendrik? Yik Kam lineage? Again, if you aint seen it then your just speculating like everyone else.

I supervised a few students of Operatic Wing Chun who had a heavy Mantis influence, so how do you know that Wing Chun came from there exactly?

ANYWAY! Totally off subject I know, so I will stop now :D

[LoneTiger108]

Explain!!

....because I'm not interested.

Fairplay to you. I don't really care that much for all the stories either. I'm more interested in where students are taking their Wing Chun, rather than worrying about where it all 'may' have come from!

And for someone that has a direct link to the Canton Opera through his Sifu, I do find it funny that everyone is supporting the Opera root these days because when I first demonstrated for my Sifu we were branded as 'performers'! :rolleyes:

How things change...

[CFT]

Official record in Gulao (Kulo)? Right. Have you seen it? If not, then no proof. :rolleyes:I've not seen the actual book that has my family tree in it, I only have a copy of a transcription. But I take that as evidence of my family history (going back 27/28 generations). If they followed Chinese traditions in Gulao then there will be a record of Leung Jan's birth in the family/village ancestral temple.


My Sihing has seen the book written by Leung Jan on TCM, now held by the Ip family, so I take that as pretty hard evidence. But a book can also be faked!!You're not related to Donald Trump by any chance? Is Obama really American?


From where exactly? Hendrik? Yik Kam lineage? Again, if you aint seen it then your just speculating like everyone else.

I supervised a few students of Operatic Wing Chun who had a heavy Mantis influence, so how do you know that Wing Chun came from there exactly?The verifiable trail ends with the Red Boat Opera. We don't know what kung fu was practiced before it got to the boats, but what came out after is Wing Chun/Weng Chun.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Hey Spencer,

Im curious about this...

"I supervised a few students of Operatic Wing Chun who had a heavy Mantis influence..."

Who were you referring to?

Suki

[LoneTiger108]

Hey Spencer,

Im curious about this...

"I supervised a few students of Operatic Wing Chun who had a heavy Mantis influence..."

Who were you referring to?

Suki

I think you know this Suki ;)

A certain (very private!) Sifu from Hung Suen who visited mine back in the day before he sadly passed away. His No.1 student was a gent called 'Bruce' Leeder (forgive the spelling!)

He and some students trained with us all for our performance in front of the Queen, but they dropped out towards the end... :(

[Wu Wei Wu]

Spencer,

Thanks for clarification.

I have no comment with regards to Bruce.

And yes, my sifu was a very private man indeed.

Suki

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer,

Thanks for clarification.

No probs Suki.

Would you agree with me on the Mantis influence? I only mention it because that's what I saw at the time... STRONG stuff whatever it was (there was Wing Chun in there too!)

[Wu Wei Wu]

Spencer,

Opera Wing Chun = mainly dragon and crane. continued to evolve on Junks and influenced by other systems. there is mantis influences like gow choi (phoenix eye hammer fist).

So yes.

Suki

[Hardwork108]

Spencer,

Opera Wing Chun = mainly dragon and crane. continued to evolve on Junks and influenced by other systems. there is mantis influences like gow choi (phoenix eye hammer fist).

So yes.

Suki

True. In the lineage that I practice the phoenix eye and I believe the dragon fist, as well as the hammer fist are used.

[LoneTiger108]

It's great to see these animals represented in Wing Chun, as I too learnt Snake, Crane, Tiger, Leopard and Dragon. Other systems replace the Dragon with Monkey, but the Drangon is definitely connected more to the Opera/Red Junks.

Hmmm... I feel another thread coming on ;)

[FongSung]

From where exactly? Yik Kam lineage? Again, if you aint seen it then your just speculating like everyone else.


Historically, according to the "actual" Cho Family in Nga Wu, Poon Yee, China, our Wing Chun is traced back to the Cantonese Opera (Ban Chung / Hei Ban), both on the boats and in Guongzhou, via Cheng Dan Kam (Yik Kam). Historically it is not known from whom Yik Kam learnt the art hence any history before him is considered as legend.

[Hardwork108]

It's great to see these animals represented in Wing Chun, as I too learnt Snake, Crane, Tiger, Leopard and Dragon. Other systems replace the Dragon with Monkey, but the Drangon is definitely connected more to the Opera/Red Junks.

Hmmm... I feel another thread coming on ;)

In the more advanced stages of my school we are taught to lap using the Tiger Claw.

Attacks, such as claw attacks to the throat are also taught.

[shawchemical]

facing an opponent not going back ( not having strategic retreating footwork) is one of the best things that can happen to a grappler, lol !
Silly not to have the ability to hit while retreating.
Look at lidell and many others that can even ko a guy while moving back.
Why not have the weapon in your arsenal?

+10000000000000.

[LoneTiger108]

Historically it is not known from whom Yik Kam learnt the art hence any history before him is considered as legend.

Wow! I wasn't aware of that! So thanks for sharing. :)

[FongSung]

Meaning there are records of Yik Gam teaching & leaving in Nga Wu but no written records on who taught him only oral transmission.

[Vajramusti]

+10000000000000.
------

Wing chun does have footwork that is designed for that-

joy chaudhuri

[couch]

------

Wing chun does have footwork that is designed for that-

joy chaudhuri

Actually, IMO, there is a Maxim for it - but it gets a little messed.

"Never step back." That's incorrect. It's supposed to be "Never step STRAIGHT back." Ergo: step back and to the side (or elsewhere).

It's a fundamental defense tactic that was taught to me in the boxing gym, too. I was taught to never step straight back, but back and to the side/circle/slip/bob and weave/etc. Cause when my opponent comes charging in with those straight lefts and rights, I'm way too easy to track if I move back in a straight line.

Best,
CTK

[Hardwork108]

Actually, IMO, there is a Maxim for it - but it gets a little messed.

"Never step back." That's incorrect. It's supposed to be "Never step STRAIGHT back." Ergo: step back and to the side (or elsewhere).

That won't do any good. There are kung fu styles, including Wing Chun that teach you to have the directional flexibility and force exertion skills to follow and over-run your opponent, even if they are angling back wards.

So, as far as my kung fu experience is concerned, we are told not to go back period! One goes "back", only in emergencies, but not as a matter of defensive habit.

Anyway, that is what I have been taught.


It's a fundamental defense tactic that was taught to me in the boxing gym, too. I was taught to never step straight back, but back and to the side/circle/slip/bob and weave/etc. Cause when my opponent comes charging in with those straight lefts and rights, I'm way too easy to track if I move back in a straight line.


That makes sense too.

[mvbrown21]

Actually, IMO, there is a Maxim for it - but it gets a little messed.

"Never step back." That's incorrect. It's supposed to be "Never step STRAIGHT back." Ergo: step back and to the side (or elsewhere).

It's a fundamental defense tactic that was taught to me in the boxing gym, too. I was taught to never step straight back, but back and to the side/circle/slip/bob and weave/etc. Cause when my opponent comes charging in with those straight lefts and rights, I'm way too easy to track if I move back in a straight line.

Best,
CTK

I think what Joy was referring to was "bracing". It's where you essentially just pivit on the heel of your lead foot if your in a facing stance and brace backwards to deflect incoming force. And it can be used in a "straight" line back if necessary. If you YouTube search "wing chun -the ultimate demonstration" you can see it there in Augustine fongs demo.

I'm actually curious if any other lineages have this footwork?

[k gledhill]

I think what Joy was referring to was "bracing". It's where you essentially just pivit on the heel of your lead foot if your in a facing stance and brace backwards to deflect incoming force. And it can be used in a "straight" line back if necessary. If you YouTube search "wing chun -the ultimate demonstration" you can see it there in Augustine fongs demo.

I'm actually curious if any other lineages have this footwork?

can you pinpoint the moment in the clip for me ?

[mvbrown21]

can you pinpoint the moment in the clip for me ?

Around :36-:38, he only uses it for a few seconds, they both use it before that but it's part of the video where you can't see their feet but you can tell by their hips

[mvbrown21]

can you pinpoint the moment in the clip for me ?

You know what, you can see it better probably in the video titled "Chi Sao between student and teacher, 4th annual WCWC seminar" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0u3IFLCrBU&feature=channel_video_title you can see forward and backwards bracing there

[k gledhill]

Thanks ! I watched both.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . . I'm actually curious if any other lineages have this footwork?
TWC has lots of footwork that isn't in the other various lineages I've studies through the years.

[k gledhill]

TWC has lots of footwork that isn't in the other various lineages I've studies through the years.


There is actually a lot of footwork in the VT system, including knife stepping, pole. VT fighters have a lot of movement available to them in all ranges, depending on weapons used.

[mvbrown21]

That would be a good thread to start, a sharing of different footwork from the different lineages. We could all probably learn something. I'll try to put together a video this weekend of the HKM/Augustine Fong basic footwork this weekend and maybe we can get it started

[Phil Redmond]

There is actually a lot of footwork in the VT system, including knife stepping, pole. VT fighters have a lot of movement available to them in all ranges, depending on weapons used.
Agreed. :)

[mvbrown21]

Here's another example from my own video of how bracing can be used. You can see most of my legs at this point in the video but still not my feet but I use a lot of forward and backwards bracing from this sequence till the end of the video. Watch the guy in the white shirt(me:)) and hopefully you guys can see it in application.

If for some reason the time url doesn't work right just go to 6:47 in the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v913E8eQ_SQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=409s

[Phil Redmond]

Here's another example from my own video of how bracing can be used. You can see most of my legs at this point in the video but still not my feet but I use a lot of forward and backwards bracing from this sequence till the end of the video. Watch the guy in the white shirt(me:)) and hopefully you guys can see it in application.

If for some reason the time url doesn't work right just go to 6:47 in the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v913E8eQ_SQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=409s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FbRfyWx1uE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjssQFcNIpY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsOhNH9Rg4A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVgO5S8Zm_Q
:)

[mvbrown21]

Here's a video I put together showing the HKM/Augustine Fong way of doing some of the basics

Footwork including bracing is at the end

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgDlvlndQro