Pak Hok Pai Sparring

[JamesC]

Tournament settings. I think it is interesting how well they are able to keep their structure and deliver some textbook blows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfpZj1ly7TM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWH8z37hGlI&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYL0qXCoFiE&NR=1

The last one looks like the guy is a little less experienced, but still pretty good.

[Mulong]

Not certain why the last individual was good per se? :confused:

Indeed, he did use his beibaihequan; personally it was a bit stiff for my taste, but he kept his focus which helped a lot, especially that his opponent wasn't sure how to react to an unorthodox completive sparring method.

At the end it is hard to compare orthodox and contemporary sparring, because both have their merits and faults. :)

[Violent Designs]

no offense but leaving your arms down at your sides against any competent fighter is suicide, unless you just outskill them in a retarded way.

[Mulong]

A simple question we can ask ourselves, should we take classical posture totally literal? :confused:

In this case we see an individual, who did which I give credit, because it isn't easy to go against the grain, i.e., the norm of completive sparring; however, an experience completive fighter knows so well that orthodox/classical theories/posture don't translate so well within the ring, because they were designed for self-defense or tactical fighting not for the ring.

Indeed orthodox techniques can confused an inexperience competitor, but an experience fighter is another story.

However, I still give kudos to those guys for upholding those classical notions in contemporary ring, even though I wouldn't take that path personality. :)

On a side note this reminded me of first generation of Nanjing Guoshu practitioners, who started to alter their classical theories/postures to fit into a contemporary setting. It is interesting how they adjusted their knowledge with western boxing; some were a bit comical and others created a good fusion.

[lkfmdc]

The obvious problem here is, they are doing these things in POINT FIGHTING where you aren't supposed to be hitting the head even!

Let them take it to a venue where it is full contact and the other guy will be HITTING BACK

[hskwarrior]

I used to see White Crane students fighting with one hand out in front and one hand stretched out behind them. But when you focus on just ONE thing like hitting with a Kwa Cup, then you are setting yourself up for failure.

The guy in this video certainly had a plan, but not exactly sure if it would be effective in the streets or in the ring. for that kind of tournament it would but they don't allow head shots which is strange cause they make them wear gloves and head gear.

[Mulong]

They were able to get away with those orthodox methods because it was light contact/point sparring venue; full-contact would have been different.

Actually disciplines like cailifoquan adapts well to the ring. Through out the years I have seen good cailifoquan fighters in light and full contact matches using effectively their classical techniques, but classical beibaihequan is another story.

[darkie1973]

Not translating the poem is what we got going on here. The fighter in question here,... Mario,... is a 'martial' cousin of mine,.. .that is to say, we come from the same lineage; however, like most things chinese (art of war,.... medical text,..... cook books,... even friggin sex manuals,) you gotta translate the poem and honestly ask yourself,... what is it really trying to tell me, without all the fluff. Tibetan White Crane, like Choi Li Fut, lends itself very well to the ring or the street,.... if you know what the hell your doing. Sadly,... most don't. But then,... my school has been accused of doing Pak Hok incorrectly by some of our sister schools,.... until they saw us in the ring. Fight Theorist tend to lose their fighting theories real fast when they get punched in the mouth,...

[ginosifu]

What lessons can be learned here? Can we or should we teach style based fighting techniques? Or should we just give up traditional Chinese Kung Fu and just brawl like the most of the modern world?

Style based fighting techniques are harder to perfect and harder to get off in a real fighting situation. But should we just club a guy with a round kick to the thigh just because it's easier? This reduce the need for TCMA and increase the amount of what I call "Brawlers". Brawling is just fighting without any skill behind the techniques

I think the current Sifu and Sigung that are promoting tournaments should maybe think about having more style based fighting divisions to increase or promote more younger fighters to try out their "Style". A few years back the Mantis guys had their symposium at my school and I was there listening to there ideas. They ideas of style based techniques would score points had merit. However nothing has come of it yet but, I think this is a good start.

ginosifu

[Frost]

What lessons can be learned here? Can we or should we teach style based fighting techniques? Or should we just give up traditional Chinese Kung Fu and just brawl like the most of the modern world?

Style based fighting techniques are harder to perfect and harder to get off in a real fighting situation. But should we just club a guy with a round kick to the thigh just because it's easier? This reduce the need for TCMA and increase the amount of what I call "Brawlers". Brawling is just fighting without any skill behind the techniques

I think the current Sifu and Sigung that are promoting tournaments should maybe think about having more style based fighting divisions to increase or promote more younger fighters to try out their "Style". A few years back the Mantis guys had their symposium at my school and I was there listening to there ideas. They ideas of style based techniques would score points had merit. However nothing has come of it yet but, I think this is a good start.

ginosifu

So you are saying that Thai boxing, is not skilful or as skilful as Chinese arts, and isn’t a style of fighting but simply brawling with no skill invloved?

[ginosifu]

So you are saying that Thai boxing, is not skilful or as skilful as Chinese arts, and isn’t a style of fighting but simply brawling with no skill invloved?

You need to read a bit more into it there Frost. The problem is that many modern people just go to a gym and punch the heavy bag and do round kicks on Thai Pads. This is not a style, just whacking stuff is brawling.

Muay Thai is a bonified style. There is nothing wrong any style. What I am saying is that we need to make a venue for TCMA that is geared for TCMA. MMA guys would not fair well in a point sparring competition. That's why they stick to their venue. If you were say to them (MMA fighter) you can only score points and win rounds for stylized techniques, how do you think they would fair?

ginosifu

[Frost]

TCMA had a venue, sanda which I know you did well in so what’s the problem with that?

Or is your argument that TCMA can only win in point sparring where style wins out over effectiveness? I assume you don’t mean that because you have produced guys that have fought full contact so again I am having trouble here understanding you

Initially MMA guys would not fair well in a point sparring contest because they wouldn’t see the point in it, stopping when you have hit your opponent or getting told off for hitting to hard…that’s difficult to understand as a rule set no?

If they got over that they would probably do ok, most guys are made to light spar and do technique work all the time its not all wailing on the heavy bag and each other :)

Styles like Thai boxing and boxing manage to look ok in the MMA environment and exactly like they are trained in the gym, what’s stopping TCMA doing the same in that arena

[lkfmdc]

MMA guys would not fair well in a point sparring competition. That's why they stick to their venue.



MMA people don't do point sparring for the same reason adults don't go to the playground, get in the sandbox and play childhood games

How exactly are you testing "martial art" in a non contact environment, with no head punches, no clinching, no sweeping, no throwing and where they frequently break the action after ONE technique

[lkfmdc]

The idea of 'style" is such a ..... well, let's just say HOW do you test "style"

I had this conversation with an AAU Chinese martial art guy over 20 years ago, so competitor A get punched, kicked and didn't land a single technique but he "wins" because he was trying to look more like Hung ga? How exactly does that work?

IE if you really think your TMA is the better fighting style, go into full contact and PROVE IT....

When we read about famous Chinese masters in challenges, like Chang Dung Sheng or the founder of the Ching Wu, we don't hear about how they put up pre conditions or made excuses. They just fought

Why has TCMA forgotten this?

[ginosifu]

TCMA had a venue, sanda which I know you did well in so what’s the problem with that?

Or is your argument that TCMA can only win in point sparring where style wins out over effectiveness? I assume you don’t mean that because you have produced guys that have fought full contact so again I am having trouble here understanding you

Initially MMA guys would not fair well in a point sparring contest because they wouldn’t see the point in it, stopping when you have hit your opponent or getting told off for hitting to hard…that’s difficult to understand as a rule set no?

If they got over that they would probably do ok, most guys are made to light spar and do technique work all the time its not all wailing on the heavy bag and each other :)

Styles like Thai boxing and boxing manage to look ok in the MMA environment and exactly like they are trained in the gym, what’s stopping TCMA doing the same in that arena

Again you miss the point. I am not talking about San Da, that is a different sport all together. I am talking about Monkey style or White Crane or Eagle Claw or Hung Gar style being able to use their techniques in the ring. This all about the "Venue". If you were to take any MMA fighter who only practices for the Octagon and put him in a point sparring Venue, he will LOSE. It's not about whether a MMA fighter will enter such an event, but more about the fact he is not prepared for that venue. TCMA fighters are not prepared for the Octagon just like a MMA fighter is not prepared for a sport stick fighting competition. These are 2 seperate types of events. If you change the rules, someone will have an advantage. If there are no rules then it is equal.

I think that if we encourage more stylized TCMA events we might see more skillful stylized fighting.

ginosifu

Frost try not to be so biast and look things from a different perspective. I know we are talking about sporting events but look any style whether it be MMA or TCMA, skillful fighters are skillful fighters, does not matter what system they do. What we see on TV are just a handful of gifted athletes, most average people will never do that. I sent some of my "Gifted athletes into the Cage and they won. If you would take thosesame MMA gifted athletes and put them into any TCMA school, they would be gifted TCMA guys just the same.

ginosifu

[lkfmdc]

Style based fighting techniques are harder to perfect and harder to get off in a real fighting situation.



Assuming this is true, WHY?

Or, perhaps more importantly, why would anyone want to spend more time and energy to get the same effect someone else gets in a faster period of time?





I think the current Sifu and Sigung that are promoting tournaments should maybe think about having more style based fighting divisions



so instead of being the best fighter, you suggest someone aspire to being the best Mantis dude who against other mantis dudes looks the most like a mantis dude??? :confused:




MMA guys would not fair well in a point sparring competition. That's why they stick to their venue.



NO, they don't do point sparring because they are interested in being effective fighters and point sparring is not fighting

If someone's sifu beat Mike tyson in a game of ping poing would that make him the better boxer?




I am talking about Monkey style or White Crane or Eagle Claw or Hung Gar style being able to use their techniques in the ring.



If you (and they) think that those techniques (or ANY techniques) work "for real" all they have to do is FIGHT and show them

The fact that in all these years, in all these different formats (venues) there has NEVER been this sort of stuff used effectively should raise the basic question - IS THAT STUFF REAL?




This all about the "Venue".



Sanshou, San Da, Muay Thai, old school Vale Tudo, original UFC rules, PRIDE rules, current UFC rules

Different venues, different rules, yet we don't see so called "style techniques" working in any of them




If you were to take any MMA fighter who only practices for the Octagon and put him in a point sparring Venue, he will LOSE.



No, he won't, he will get DISQUALIFIED because he will either kick or punch the guy too hard, or throw him, or try to submit him, which are all ILLEGAL in point sparring because point sparring IS NOT A FIGHT!




TCMA fighters are not prepared for the Octagon



it's because they think they have to fight in "style" instead of looking for what works




If there are no rules then it is equal.



Brazil for almost 50 years. And yet the TCMA guys never seemed to show up and kill everyone

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have seen guys try to use their "TCMA" and fail miserably and it wasn't venue or the rules.
Let us not forget that not too long ago, one could fight with NO RULES, if one choose to.
Still can if you are really that interested.
The reason they failed was because they didn't train the way they fought.
It is truly that simple.
Unless you can train by "ripping out throats, eyes and livers", don't think for a minute you will be able to do it when your opponent is busy driving his very hard fist into your face over and over and over again.

[Frost]

Again you miss the point. I am not talking about San Da, that is a different sport all together. I am talking about Monkey style or White Crane or Eagle Claw or Hung Gar style being able to use their techniques in the ring. This all about the "Venue". If you were to take any MMA fighter who only practices for the Octagon and put him in a point sparring Venue, he will LOSE. It's not about whether a MMA fighter will enter such an event, but more about the fact he is not prepared for that venue. TCMA fighters are not prepared for the Octagon just like a MMA fighter is not prepared for a sport stick fighting competition. These are 2 seperate types of events. If you change the rules, someone will have an advantage. If there are no rules then it is equal.

I think that if we encourage more stylized TCMA events we might see more skillful stylized fighting.

ginosifu

Frost try not to be so biast and look things from a different perspective. I know we are talking about sporting events but look any style whether it be MMA or TCMA, skillful fighters are skillful fighters, does not matter what system they do. What we see on TV are just a handful of gifted athletes, most average people will never do that. I sent some of my "Gifted athletes into the Cage and they won. If you would take thosesame MMA gifted athletes and put them into any TCMA school, they would be gifted TCMA guys just the same.

ginosifu

I agree no rules makes things more equal…or very limited rules…and MMA is about as close to no rules as you can get so what’s stopping hung gar stepping up and using its unique style of fighting to win?

Other than that I am still not understanding you, are you saying that hung gar, monkey etc cant be made to work in a full contact environment so in order for it to be fair to them so they can look like they are actually trained they have to have a new ruleset set up for themselves?

I.e. the venue has to be a non full contact, no throwing, point scoring venue with marks for style for the likes of hung gar, monkey style etc to actually look like they are meant to look and work…if that’s the case (ie they cant work in a full contact environment) they are hardly efficient styles correct?

I’m not blinkered I did more than a few point sparring comps when I did TCMA heck I even did a national traditional barehand sparring comp because the senior students in our system were getting fed up with how the bare hand traditional fighting was starting to look like kick boxing (ie not kung fu) and wanted some of us senior headquarter guys to show them how fighting should look (god that sounds so bad now) what did I learn well when the contact level goes up its hard to stay stylised I learned this the hard way….still missing the tooth to this day lol Interestingly the master of our style who has trained guys that have won in full contact never questioned how our guys looked when they competed, he understood something that the seniors who had never fought full contact did not….


When I think MMA im not thinking the cream of the crop, I’m thinking the guys I train with, 6 off whom fought on a local show this weekend, 4 won 2 lost and all looked like they do in training (not as refined but still looked like how they train)

[lkfmdc]

I have seen guys try to use their "TCMA" and fail miserably and it wasn't venue or the rules.
Let us not forget that not too long ago, one could fight with NO RULES, if one choose to.
Still can if you are really that interested.
The reason they failed was because they didn't train the way they fought.
It is truly that simple.
Unless you can train by "ripping out throats, eyes and livers", don't think for a minute you will be able to do it when your opponent is busy driving his very hard fist into your face over and over and over again.

all of the above 100% TRUE

in addition, let us not forget that everyone has a plan until you punch them in the FACE

[sanjuro_ronin]

all of the above 100% TRUE

in addition, let us not forget that everyone has a plan until you punch them in the FACE

Tell me about it, LOL !
That and all our plans go to **** when we hit the guy with our "super dooper power scooper" and He just smiles !
I hate that.

[bawang]

in every single classic kung fu fighting stance you never put your hands down.

i dont know what kind of "orthodox" training those foos are doings

[hskwarrior]

in every single classic kung fu fighting stance you never put your hands down.

i dont know what kind of "orthodox" training those foos are doings
__________________

Stop acting like you DON'T train that way. you play too much

[bawang]

i dont train that way.

[hskwarrior]

i dont train that way.

you do. i saw your dvd.

[Mulong]

I'm curious, how many have seen the old Fu Jow Pai fights from the 70's or matches out of Hong Kong from that era; even better the first full-contact tournament that Tat Mau Wong hosted in Bay Area in the 90's?

[lkfmdc]

5:14 of this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGzJlGMZkq4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QquDpDJTVHU

[jdhowland]

As a bak hok guy, I will say that the videos show a beginner's understanding of how to spar with the techniques. Not bad, but this sort of stuff is usually only done with classmates to get a very basic understanding of fighting principles.

The fighting style of any system derives from an exaggerated emphasis on power development and principles of movement. It derives from teaching methodology but should only enhance your real fighting, not dictate how it looks.

The characteristic bak hok training should result in a high, narrow stance, quick footwork, lots of bobbing, weaving and shifting from between high and low technique, a high guard and fluid and rapid waist turning with the strikes.

Oh, wait.. I've just described boxing. There's a reason for that. You don't bring the weight lifting, the road work or the speed bag techniques to the fight. You bring the body and mind trained by those things to the fight.

[lkfmdc]

If you don't walk in a circle, making different hand formations, and calling out the names of the different animals, it isnt' kung fu... didn't anyone explain that to you? :D

[Mulong]

Thanks David for the example; the Ron Van Clief matches proves the basic notion that competitive fighting is that “competitive.” Meaning, you don’t go into an Indy 500 Race with a Model-T, even though it works.

Indeed, classical fighting arts do possess great fighting skills which are more consistent for tactical fighting or self-defense (which have to be trained not envision to make it work). However, they have to be modified for competitive ring, because they have to coincide with the rules being used by the venue.

Sadly what some redeem as classical fighting is based upon the Shaw Brothers interpretation of fighting or individuals that never fought in their lives. Real fighting is not stylistic, it is straight to point and the same goes for competitive fighting; for good example of this is the evolution of western boxing that evolved into a sweet science of few primary techniques that work under pressure. However, classical styles are still bogged down by secondary, tertiary, etc. techniques or theories to be able to master primary fighting mechanics which work under pressure and is the cornerstone of good competitive fighting.

[jdhowland]

If you don't walk in a circle, making different hand formations, and calling out the names of the different animals, it isnt' kung fu... didn't anyone explain that to you? :D

Bummer. Thought my mouh seuht was teh realz.

Where do i sign up? Do i get to wear one of those orange robes?