CLF Diu Mah Alignment

[Eric Olson]

One big problem I see in CLF forms (not fighting) is a misalignment in the legs. In Northern style stances, including Taiji, the femur and foot always point in the same direction.

In CLF, in particular the knee and toe become misaligned. I think this puts unnecessary pressure on the knee joint.

See video below for what I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/user/AustinKungFu#p/u/13/t04oAniAafc

When the student holds a low stance, he turns his waist so his left shoulder is forward, this creates alignment of the leg and foot (0:07). When he turns so both shoulders face forward the knee and foot are not longer aligned (0:21).

You see the same thing with Kau Mah (cross-stance). This is one of my big gripes with CLF. I really like the hands but the stances (at least in the forms) seem to go against natural movement at times. The videos are from my same lineage of CLF so perhaps other branches don't have the exact same issue.

Thoughts?

[Drake]

Worst cat stance EVAR...

[hskwarrior]

this how we do our Diu Ma in the Lau Bun lineage. our knee's are in line with our toes

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v296/115/53/697132731/n697132731_752688_6633.jpg

[Drake]

You only have about 20% of your weight on the lead foot. You also aren't supposed to hang out in the stance. It's a very swift transition.

[Keng Lee]

shut up........

[CLFNole]

When you practice lie ma (ng lun ma) or che kuen (ng lun choy) the lead foot and lead elbow should point in the same direction and there should be nothing wrong with alignment. So rather than having the chest point in the same diection as the lead leg of the cat stance the right elbow would point in the same direction as the right leg if in right cat stance. It is when the opposite hand shoots out that I can see some "un-natural" movement might occur but this is typically for a brief second and I don't find it uncomfortable or un-natural since I have been doing it for so many years.

The way I teach it is the back leg foot should form more or less a right angle with the front foot and the toe of the lead foot should be in line with the heel of the rear foot.

[omarthefish]

You only have about 20% of your weight on the lead foot. You also aren't supposed to hang out in the stance. It's a very swift transition.

More like 0%. That's why it's name in most northern styles is "empty stance". The front leg is "empty". You can see that the Lau Bun guys pretty much do it that way.

[hskwarrior]

More like 0%. That's why it's name in most northern styles is "empty stance". The front leg is "empty". You can see that the Lau Bun guys pretty much do it that way.

Our Diu Mah is basically 98/99% on the back and 1-2 % on the front. we do it this way to evade a front leg sweep. (one of the reasons)

[YouKnowWho]

More like 0%. That's why it's name in most northern styles is "empty stance". The front leg is "empty". You can see that the Lau Bun guys pretty much do it that way.
My longfist teacher loved to sweep my front foot when I was in a "虛步(Xu Bu) - empty stance" to make sure that I had 0% weight on my leading foot. He also required that my back foot was in a 45 degree angle to my front foot.

IMO, the "虛步(Xu Bu) - empty stance" is not that useful. It's too conservative. If you are afraid to be swept, you will never have courage to attack. If you know how to escape a foot sweep, you won't care about whether you have 0% weight on your leading foot or not.

The moment that you see your opponent stay in "虛步(Xu Bu) - empty stance", you can push his shoulder and scoop his leading foot up and then run him down. Your opponent's "虛步(Xu Bu) - empty stance" will give you an excellent chance to enter.

[lkfmdc]

My longfist teacher loved to sweep my front foot when I was in a "虛步(Xu Bu) - empty stance" to make sure that I had 0% weight on my leading foot. He also required that my back foot was in a 45 degree angle to my front foot.

IMO, the "虛步(Xu Bu) - empty stance" is not that useful. It's too conservative. If you are afraid to be swept, you will never have courage to attack. If you know how to escape a foot sweep, you won't care about whether you have 0% weight on your leading foot or not.

The moment that you see your opponent stay in "虛步(Xu Bu) - empty stance", you can push his shoulder and scoop his leading foot up and then run him down. Your opponent's "虛步(Xu Bu) - empty stance" will give you an excellent chance to enter.

the problem, endemic to TCMA, is taking a mere moment in a real situation and turning it into a static posture. "Assuming" an empty stance is the same thing as posing a punch. It never happens that way in real life

[Drake]

the problem, endemic to TCMA, is taking a mere moment in a real situation and turning it into a static posture. "Assuming" an empty stance is the same thing as posing a punch. It never happens that way in real life

Gotta keep moving.

[lkfmdc]

Gotta keep moving.

or you end up looking like this

http://bp0.blogger.com/_pxNFD1CqodM/SH8hEZA2FcI/AAAAAAAAAJE/HJtQwZNZNqY/s320/DSC_0049.jpg

[hskwarrior]

Outside of training, does anyone really use an EMPTY STANCE? We don't. Not while sparring or fighting. but that doesn't mean we throw away drill that works even when not in the Diu Mah. We only use static Diu Mah during stance training.

[lkfmdc]

Outside of training, does anyone really use an EMPTY STANCE? We don't.



if you never use it, why even train it?





We only use static Diu Mah during stance training.



but WHY? You just said you don't use that stance, so why train it?

And I can tell you there are much more productive things you should be doing other than stance training

[hskwarrior]

if you never use it, why even train it?

I never said we don't use it. I said we don't fight using a Diu Mah. The Diu Mah has FEW good purposes. I also keep up Stance training cause its TRADITIONALLY what we do.


but WHY? You just said you don't use that stance, so why train it?

And I can tell you there are much more productive things you should be doing other than stance training

I will NEVER cut out traditional stance training as long as I live or teach. if you have, thats fine and dandy. It's not what i plan to do.

We use it in a more functional manner, but we don't just sit there in that stance waiting for you to do something. the way we use Diu Mah is evasive and in transition.

[lkfmdc]

I never said we don't use it. I said we don't fight using a Diu Mah.



so what do you use it for? watering the plants?





I also keep up Stance training cause its TRADITIONALLY what we do.



ah "tradition" = you do it because some one did it that way 100 years ago

do you sill live in a hut, plow fields with an ox, take a crap in a hole in the ground and weave your own fabric :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

so what do you use it for? watering the plants?


YES...no wait.... NO....uhhh.....YES. YES.... I choose YES.


ah "tradition" = you do it because some one did it that way 100 years ago

do you sill live in a hut, plow fields with an ox, take a crap in a hole in the ground and weave your own fabric


Do what YOU do and I will DO what I do. Crap and Do Do.....I gotta DOO DOO ...BRB

and YES, we do ALL of that. Weaving, plowing, and living.

[lkfmdc]

some people can't see the forest for the trees

[hskwarrior]

some people can't see the forest for the trees

I see more bushes where I live than tree's. So i can see JUUUUUUUUST FIIIIIIIINE.

But check out this cat stance.....

http://www.epicrainbow.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/cattail.jpg

Speaking of cats doesn't this look like your buddy CYMac?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1ece_1s4bkU/TTIjmHlNRhI/AAAAAAAALLY/2iOa9f5Nrkk/s400/fun%2Bny%2Bcross%2Beyed%2Bsiamese%2Bcat%2Bface.jpg

[Drake]

I baited someone with it once. Walked right into it. SUCKA!

[Drake]

I usually just go Grimlock when fighting. Works out great. Never once used a poon kiu, sow choi, or fu jau...

KF is a hobby for me.... and that's it.

[lkfmdc]

Never once used a poon kiu, sow choi, or fu jau...



sounds like my local chinese place's menu

[Eric Olson]

the problem, endemic to TCMA, is taking a mere moment in a real situation and turning it into a static posture. "Assuming" an empty stance is the same thing as posing a punch. It never happens that way in real life

Seems like Diu Mah is the most "dead" and posed of the traditional stances. It's really just to get you to learn to shift your weight to the back leg when appropriate.

EO

[hskwarrior]

Seems like Diu Mah is the most "dead" and posed of the traditional stances.

This is not an accurate comment. In your old school or current one it may be a dead stance,but, not in mine.

[lkfmdc]

This is not an accurate comment. In your old school or current one it may be a dead stance,but, not in mine.

says the man who a few posts back said they never actually use the stance :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

says the man who a few posts back said they never actually use the stance

Was a specific use for the Diu Mah mentioned? hmmmmm......that would be a NEGATORY!!!!! NADDA.....Wala Yan.

Do i use it as a fighting stance? NO. Do i use it evasively? YES.

Now where are going with this?

[dirtyrat]

sounds like my local chinese place's menu

you eat at this place?? this explains some things....

[Drake]

If you have 0% weight on the lead foot, then it's just a retarded Crane stance, as if Crane stances could get any more retarded.

[hskwarrior]

Thats what i mentioned earlier maybe like 2 % on the tip toe. This way if someone does make contact with your foot while you go into Diu Mah the weight will be on the back leg so you won't fall or lose alot of balance.

[Drake]

Our Diu Mah is basically 98/99% on the back and 1-2 % on the front. we do it this way to evade a front leg sweep. (one of the reasons)

How in the HELL do you estimate 1-2% of your body weight? You can't even have your leg naturally rest on the floor and accomplish that. And you sure as hell can't estimate it without equipment.

[Drake]

I am feisty today. Work with me. Taliban are REALLY ****ing me off.

[YouKnowWho]

the problem, endemic to TCMA, is taking a mere moment in a real situation and turning it into a static posture. "Assuming" an empty stance is the same thing as posing a punch. It never happens that way in real life

Agree 100% here. The day that you have just realized that "there exist no stance" but a quit body advance/retreat/rotation/bending/ ..., you have just moved into a higher level. The stance is the beginner level training. It helps you to understand your weight distributation. After you have completed that training, the 坐盤步(Zuo Oan Bu) - twisting stance (stealing step) no longer exist but a quick body spinning. The only way that you can achieve "lighting speed" is to understand that, "There exist no stance".

[hskwarrior]

How in the HELL do you estimate 1-2% of your body weight? You can't even have your leg naturally rest on the floor and accomplish that. And you sure as hell can't estimate it without equipment.

Scientifically speaking? who knows? What i DO know is that the MAJORITY of my weight will sit on the back leg and just the tip of my toe touches the ground.

Do you know of anyone who has used equipment to gauge how much weight is being distributed in any stance? if so, what instrument did you use? what gung fu schools do that?

The description of 98% on the back leg and 2% on the front foot is not that hard to comprehend. one would have to be pretty fekkin dense not to understand that 98% means most but not all of your weight is on the back leg and very very little on the front. so you give 2% as an indication of how much weight to put on the front foot.

Will it affect you in an adverse way if you use 3%? 4%? 5%? NO, not at all. LOL

This is the first time i'd ever heard an argument over weight distribution and how its not properly gauged without the proper instruments to tell you how much percentage is being used.

[hskwarrior]

The only way that you can achieve "lighting speed" is to understand that, "There exist no stance

will you ever achieve this without training? i mean a total newbie who never learned martial arts before. will he understand it how you do in the beginning of his own martial path?

[YouKnowWho]

will you ever achieve this without training? i mean a total newbie who never learned martial arts before. will he understand it how you do in the beginning of his own martial path?

You have to go through the elementary school but you just can't stay in elementary school forever and refuse to move into high school. That was what lkfmdc trying to say.

This concept is very important in TCMA. Unfortunately many teacher just didn't make this clear to his students. When you see an 80 years old Taiji master stilll demonstrates Taiji push hands, you start to wonder, "Why does this 80 old man still demonstrate the elementary school material? Should he work on kick, punch, lock, throw integration instead?"

[hskwarrior]

You have to go through the elementary school but you just can't stay in elementary school forever and refuse to move into high school. That was what trying to say.

Exactly. That kind of knowledge is a result of your own path. Guide the newbies in a structured fashion and always open their eyes to other possibilities. You can describe all the glory of running a marathon to an infant but it won't just get up and started running because you mentioned it. you have to crawl before you walk.

[YouKnowWho]

Exactly. That kind of knowledge is a result of your own path. Guide the newbies in a structured fashion and always open their eyes to other possibilities. You can describe all the glory of running a marathon to an infant but it won't just get up and started running because you mentioned it. you have to crawl before you walk.

This was also the problem that Bruce Lee had. He came from TCMA training but his JKD does not inherit TCMA basic training. I don't believe to start from the high school without the elementary school is a good idea even if the elementary school training is not fun.

[hskwarrior]

This was also the problem that Bruce Lee had. He came from TCMA training but his JKD does not inherit TCMA basic training. I don't believe to start from the high school without the elementary school is a good idea even if the elementary school training is not fun.

yeah i also felt that bruce was enlightened only after his path was complete. but even HE had to walk that path to gain the knowledge he gained. i feel that is where he went wrong with trying to teach. he wanted them to be college students without ever going to school before.

[YouKnowWho]

he wanted them to be college students without ever going to school before.
The same problem also exist in the Chinese wrestling. Some students don't like to train solo drills or equipment training. They only like to wrestle. They may have good wrestling skill against average opponents. Since their basic are weak, they may have problem with strong opponents. On the other extream, some students love to work on the solo drills and equipment training but not much in wrestling. They may have excellent foundation, but since they don't have enough wrestling experience, they may even have problem to deal with beginners.

You don't have to make "A" on all courses before gradulate from your elementary school. To spend all your life in elementary school is silly IMO.

[Subitai]

You know...just to be a smart a$$ and for observations sake...

If you look at Muay Thai, in some fights and for some fighters...

They stand off the the rear leg with a VERY lightly wieghted front leg. (sometimes just tapping the front foot)

ALMOST a "Empty Stance" if you will.

And NOBODY.... especially Ross, is gonna claim that MT fighters can't fight.

So every dog has his day, and yes, even an empty stance can be used. If only for a brief moment in time...sure why not.

[hskwarrior]

If you look at Muay Thai, in some fights and for some fighters...

They stand off the the rear leg with a VERY lightly wieghted front leg. (sometimes just tapping the front foot)

come to think about that, you're right. they don't put much pressure on the front foot at all. and bouncing it up and down means most or all of the weight is on the rear leg.....

nice call.

[Phil Redmond]

Wing Chun uses a Diu Mah in the pole form.
btw, I was waiting for someone to comment on the fact that if you say Diu Mah in the wrong Cantonese tone you could be saying something like MFker. :D

[hskwarrior]

diu na ma ................

[Phil Redmond]

diu na ma ................
That's the one.....lol

[YouKnowWho]

If you look at Muay Thai, in some fights and for some fighters...

They stand off the the rear leg with a VERY lightly wieghted front leg. (sometimes just tapping the front foot).

The golden rooster stance, bow-arrow atance, and horse stance are the 3 most useful stances. The golden roster stance can be used for both offense and defense which is different from the empty stance which is a very conservative defense stance only.

If you have good balance in your golden rooster stance, you can use your front leg to sweep. scoop, hook, cut, sharpen, spring, lift, twist, break, kick, knee, ... You can't do that with your empty stance.

It's very important to have a good balance golden rooster stance in TCMA training. To have a good balance empty stance is not that useful because it's not a useful "offense" stance.

What kind of attack can you issue from your empty stance? If you want to kick, you have to straight your back leg and you can't keep your back leg bending.

[Subitai]

The golden rooster stance, bow-arrow atance, and horse stance are the 3 most useful stances. The golden roster stance can be used for both offense and defense which is different from the empty stance which is a very conservative defense stance only.

If you have good balance in your golden rooster stance, you can use your front leg to sweep. scoop, hook, cut, sharpen, spring, lift, twist, break, kick, knee, ... You can't do that with your empty stance.

It's very important to have a good balance golden rooster stance in TCMA training. To have a good balance empty stance is not that useful because it's not a useful "offense" stance.

What kind of attack can you issue from your empty stance? If you want to kick, you have to straight your back leg and you can't keep your back leg bending.


My point was...the MT guys are able to fight just fine with a Front empty leg. (even if it's only brief). Nobody said offensive use was a prequisite.

If a MT guy uses this empty stance to Jam In a front kick...who cares if he did it offensively or defensively? Can't the guy just use it to counter or just Jam his opponant?

Don't get caught up in wheather a guy LOOKS like he's doing the "Empty Stance" like the one in the CLF video. What's important is to realize the usage of energy and the distribution of wieght. === Namely most of the wieght being used on the rear leg and very Light on the front foot.

As I read the discussion, the distribution of wieght seemed to be the Crux of the matter. So my point was, when used in "Said Regard" as has been proven to work, then it's possible. We've all seen the videos of awesome MT guys able to use it. Do we really need to start posting YT vids?? I don't think so.

[lkfmdc]

You know...just to be a smart a$$ and for observations sake...

If you look at Muay Thai, in some fights and for some fighters...

They stand off the the rear leg with a VERY lightly wieghted front leg. (sometimes just tapping the front foot)

ALMOST a "Empty Stance" if you will.



1. Nak Muay (Thai boxers to you people) don't do stance work and certainly don't hold empty stances

2. ALMOST is not the SAME

My aunt is ALMOST my uncle, except she doesn't have a dick

[hskwarrior]

My aunt is ALMOST my uncle, except she doesn't have a ****

So your Auntie is a Bull Dagger? :confused:

[YouKnowWho]

the distribution of wieght seemed to be the Crux of the matter.
Is stance training important?

The purpose of TCMA stance training is to develop body structure/alignment and weight distributation. A beginner won't be able to tell the difference between 50-50 distributation vs. 40-60 distributation, or 30/70 distributation. If you think that you have 0% weight on your front leg but actually you have 10% weight on it, that just means that you don't understand yourself enough. A beginner also won't be able to stand in a bow-arrow stance that his head, chest, and back leg are all in a straight line. This posture is extream important in the Chinese throwing art. Without the stance training, your body won't be able to achieve this kind of alignment. You may not be able to execute some throws well.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/580/oldpic211.jpg

The foreign MA system may not emphasis on this kind of stance training but the TCMA does. Is it important? Yes! It's important in the beginner training stage. Is it not important? Yes! It's not important in the intermediate and advance training stage. During the intermediate and advance level TCMA training stage, the "mobility" and "momentum" are much more importat than the static posture.

Sometime people criticise the TCMA just from the beginner training point of view. There are a lot of people who refuse to gradulate from the elementary school and that's a fact (such as doing fix step push hands at the age of 80). The moment that you have moved beyond that, the TCMA training and foreign MA training are not much difference. The goal is "combat effective" no more and no less.

[Subitai]

1. Nak Muay (Thai boxers to you people) don't do stance work and certainly don't hold empty stances

2. ALMOST is not the SAME

My aunt is ALMOST my uncle, except she doesn't have a dick


So it's about getting in the last word now-adays eh??

Well then nice FAIL!

1) I didnt say anything about stance work

2) You're trying to make it about apples and oranges but that's not the point. You just can't stand it that someone has made good observation about wieght distribution.

The problem with coaches like you is that ring (although arguably more tougher than a shouting match) IS REAL life from your point of view. Congrats for that.

You spoke of what you see in real life but San Da or MMA isn't real either. What's real is that a guy sees me from the other side of the bar and waits till i'm not looking before I get stolen to the side of the head. At that point the guy could be in ANY stance and it would work.

So let's not use sports that: Arrange matches months in advance, does wiegh in's, physicals, drug tests and also wears gloves as reference for real life.

[lkfmdc]

wait, wait, so you think beating up an untrained guy in a street fight is a better indication of fighting ability than fighting a trained fighter :rolleyes:

FAIL

PS; one thing I have said MANY TIMES is we do tons of different formats and do well in all of them, so it isn't just about playing one game, it is about finding what works against a real person who isn't doing what you told them to do and is resisting

And the point remains, Nak Muay don't do empty stances

[Subitai]

The purpose of TCMA stance training is to develop body structure/alignment and weight distributation. A beginner won't be able to tell the difference between 50-50 distributation vs. 40-60 distributation, or 30/70 distributation. If you think that you have 0% weight on your front leg but actually you have 10% weight on it, that just means that you don't understand yourself enough.

The foreign MA system may not emphasis on this kind of stance training but the TCMA does. Is it important? Yes! It'sportant in the beginner training stage. Is it not important? Yes! It's not important in the intermediate and advance training stage. During the intermediate and advance level TCMA training stage, the "mobility" and "momentum" are much more importat than the static posture.

Sometime people criticise the TCMA just from the beginner training point of view. There are a lot of people who refuse to gradulate from the elementary school and that's a fact (such as doing fix step push hands at the age of 80). The moment that you have moved beyond that, the TCMA training and foreign MA training are not much difference.


Good points, however I wasnt' personally focusing on Stance Training as an issue.

I was just concentrating on finding an example in which: Heavy wieght on rear leg and very little on lead leg was plausable...I think I established that.

You said, "During the intermediate and advance level TCMA training stage, the "mobility" and "momentum" are much more importat than the static posture"

I agree, and from a TCMA point of view...do you know why that should be the goal? Because the "Mah" or Horse is not a static or stationary animal. It's a fast moving, fluid and running one. Only forms hippies and people who don't know how to fight never go beyond static structure.

[YouKnowWho]

Heavy wieght on rear leg and very little on lead leg...
I agree that if one is afraid to stand on his single leg, his leg skill may not be good enough.

Back in the 70th, almost all the TKD guys in the world fought like that (they don't do that any more). Raising the front leg to protect the low part of the body. Use the arm guard to protect the head, and hop in with the back standing leg, the front leg is ready to delieve a front kick, roundhouse kick, or side kick.

[Subitai]

wait, wait, so you think beating up an untrained guy in a street fight is a better indication of fighting ability than fighting a trained fighter :rolleyes:

FAIL

PS; one thing I have said MANY TIMES is we do tons of different formats and do well in all of them, so it isn't just about playing one game, it is about finding what works against a real person who isn't doing what you told them to do and is resisting

And the point remains, Nak Muay don't do empty stances

NO fail back to you...I think real fighting away from sport is real fighting...that's why sport is called sport.

See! Again, you try to make it about an "Indication of fighting ability", when the issue I thought being discussed was ultimately the usefullness of being heavy on rear foot and light on the front. You were the one that asked, why train it?

You place so much emphasis on being a well training fighter that you forgot one simple truth. That 99% of the time, it's not well trained fighters that you're going to meet in a real life situation.

I bet you in real life...ROSS is probably the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet and if he became your friend would give the shirt off his back...am I right? :eek:

Professionals or at least up and coming journyman (i'll give you that) are actually some of the nicest people you'll ever meet. They almost never allow themselves to be put in a bad situation. Why? Because they're training for the next match and cannot risk being hurt for no reason.

Street savy and being mentally prepared for a match are not the same thing. But that does not mean that an Untrained Assailant is not dangerous. Who are you kidding Ross, you're saying that only trained fighters are worth fighting????? Any fight deserves full respect and attention.

I live one state over in CT. Did you hear about the dude a couple yrs back who had a home invasion and the 2 A-holes that nearly killed him but brutally murdered his wife and 2 daughters? They weren't well trained fighters


BTW, Thai boxers, may not use the CLF empty stance as per the video. But if they use Most or all of their wieght on the back leg and are tapping the front foot. I ask you... what is their weight distribution AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME????

what?......Yeah, that's what I thought.

[lkfmdc]

You were the one that asked, why train it?




May I suggest a reading comprehension course, cause I never said what you think I said, not in the least

I said why train empty stance, and why do stance training at all

Do you need stances to be able to shift your weight from one foot to another. By G'd, you already know the answer don't you? :rolleyes:

NO, because Nak Muay never do stance training




I bet you in real life...ROSS is probably the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet



completely irrelevant , as was most of the rest of the post

[hskwarrior]

BTW, Thai boxers, may not use the CLF empty stance as per the video. But if they use Most or all of their wieght on the back leg and are tapping the front foot. I ask you... what is their weight distribution AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME????


CLF's Diu Mah or Cat Stance, or just Tip Top horse like we call it isn't a fighting stance at all. Its just a stance we train. Its usage is evasive and can even provide you with additional space between you and your opponent. It can even give you enough room to do a low kick in a tight space or if he's crowding you.

What is the BIG ISSUE here? Traditional practitioners practicing traditionally? Is this an old school vs new school debate? I'm not really understanding why people are starting to argue about a SINGLE stance, position, transition, or whatever you want to describe the Diu Mah as.

Here is a couple of video's that touch on the cat stance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDBXTezPp8k

In this video, the circling thing he does in the stance is a drill that we in our CLF also do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNWPr-2ce1U

This one give a decent explanation of the Diu Mah and simple usages
http://www.ehow.co.uk/video_2367432_horse_-stance-kung-fu-children.html


Still, what you see in this picture is what WE SHOULD NEVER DO as a fighting stance

http://www.shenmartialarts.com/cart/images/San_Sing_Diu_Ma.jpg

[Brule]

I'm sorry hskwarrior, if you don't train your guys to start a fight like that, then you're not a traditionist as you claim to be.

I take the view, as others have stated, that static stance training is not the best way to practise your stances. There are better ways to use your time while at the same time, improving the stance and using it in a manner designed to be effective.

[hskwarrior]

I'm sorry hskwarrior, if you don't train your guys to start a fight like that, then you're not a traditionist as you claim to be.

you are RIGHT... I am NO Traditionist.......

However, i am a TRADITIONALIST


I take the view, as others have stated, that static stance training is not the best way to practise your stances.

And you are ENTITLED to keep that view.


There are better ways to use your time while at the same time, improving the stance and using it in a manner designed to be effective. ]

Then don't worry about what I do with my students, YOU teach how you feel you want to teach.

Thanks for your input tho. :D

[nospam]

Originally Posted by lkfmdc
the problem...is taking a mere moment in a real situation and turning it into a static posture.

Originally Posted by YouKnowWho
Agree 100% here. The day that you have just realized that "there exist no stance"..., you have just moved into a higher level. The stance is the beginner level training.

The 1st speaks to the science of martial study:reverse engineering. The 2nd is a truism in any MA style. It was and often still is held as a kung fu secret.

#1 - combat science derived from analysing a mere moment in a real situation or studying the dynamics of action:movement. The whole was broken into parts, points of time were named (static classification: stances/technique), and dummied down so laymen or the uneducated could have points of reference to help understand, while the whole was eventually, painstakingly, re-sequenced. Classical stances are motion studies - it was technology of the time and still is...traditionally speaking.

The above is a tried and tested method of instructing and passing down the science of martial study. The problem with the method developed is in its relation to statement #2 and how knowledge is derived. Knowledge in Kung fu is two fold. It is both implicit (as with practical skill or expertise) and explicit (as with the theoretical understanding of a subject). Many students received the practical skill to varying degrees but were never told or never understood how to re-sequence the parts...in other words they were given only some or incomplete knowledge.

Incomplete knowledge of a kung fu style wasn't uncommon as understanding the knowledge within statement #2 was reserved for senior or disciple students and often held back at times to death by many masters..as the stories are told. Kung fu secrets are held back for many reasons, least of which, is too much knowledge too soon is detrimental. As we're all aware and have experienced, practical skill is accomplished through more practise! Withholding the knowledge of #2 or lack thereof is evident today in how many understand their own patterns.

There is another thread that includes discussion on long arm techniques. What does the explicit knowledge of movement tell us? There is no sau choy or pau choi or upper cut or short arm or long arm technique..to use an over-used phrase..be like water my friend. BUT..we do need to practise each and everyone of these because in the doing we learn proper dynamic form. BUT..in so doing we run the risk of becoming stuck in the tools of implicit learning. We have created 100+ patterns (tools) that only impart the knowledge that if you dig a well too deep, you have dug your own grave...

nospam
:cool:

[Brule]

blah blah blah blah...... :D

Thank goodness the forums have their resident spell checker, what would we all do without you.

Maybe i should have added a smiley face or some other emoticon to my first statement so you would see i was just kidding...

I was just poiting out how i feel there are better ways to train stances, as i thought this was a place to discuss and present our views. I wasn't saying you should change what you do, no need to get offended. Besides, aren't you on the west coast? WTF you doing up at 6:30 checking KFM :confused::eek::cool::D:p:o:(:mad:

[hskwarrior]

I was just poiting out how i feel there are better ways to train stances, as i thought this was a place to discuss and present our views. I wasn't saying you should change what you do, no need to get offended. Besides, aren't you on the west coast? WTF you doing up at 6:30 checking KFM

That's nice. You keep that up. Poiting? what's that? :D JK

I'm up at 6 a.m. every morning...i can't sleep past that time even if its the weekend. and I hate TV so i check out the forum.

Now, although you don't really know how i teach my students, please share with me what kind of training that you think it much better. I'd like to hear what you have to say whether i may agree or not.

Although, I teach static stances to all NEWBIE's to give them some type of foundation, since most of them have none, i get to build one free of pollutants. Once they get passed the initial stages of their introduction to our training, we move on to bigger and better things.

PS....the way you initially came across was like Ross....so i naturally got into the mode of thinking. I wasn't offended man i just think its wrong for one person or a group of followers to tell another that there are better things to do than what i'm already doing- without knowing what i do during my classes.

but i do feel you tho.

[5thBrother]

or you end up looking like this

http://bp0.blogger.com/_pxNFD1CqodM/SH8hEZA2FcI/AAAAAAAAAJE/HJtQwZNZNqY/s320/DSC_0049.jpg


and


http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v296/115/53/697132731/n697132731_752688_6633.jpg

<-- basic knee, toe, and foot (right).. for actually self defence/ fighting anyone? ... sigh

and that's rust the right.. then look at the lazy inward turn of the left foot..... --- or is this the CLF way? I am not CFL .... aplogies if so .. and reasons?

*cry* ... modern Gung Fu neh :`( ....

kekeke....

[hskwarrior]

<-- basi knee, toe, and foot .. for actually self defence/ fighting anyone? ... sigh

*cry* ... modern Gung Fu neh :`( ....

kekeke....
_____________

all of that over a single stationary static stance for newbie's? really? Keep crying ya beezy!!!!!! Only sissy boys cry over that........ LMAO

[Brule]

That's nice. You keep that up. Poiting? what's that? :D JK

I'm up at 6 a.m. every morning...i can't sleep past that time even if its the weekend. and I hate TV so i check out the forum.

Now, although you don't really know how i teach my students, please share with me what kind of training that you think it much better. I'd like to hear what you have to say whether i may agree or not.

Although, I teach static stances to all NEWBIE's to give them some type of foundation, since most of them have none, i get to build one free of pollutants. Once they get passed the initial stages of their introduction to our training, we move on to bigger and better things.

PS....the way you initially came across was like Ross....so i naturally got into the mode of thinking. I wasn't offended man i just think its wrong for one person or a group of followers to tell another that there are better things to do than what i'm already doing- without knowing what i do during my classes.

but i do feel you tho.

What i think is important is moving between stances as there is no static moment in time, you are always moving. I'm no teacher, so let's get that outta the way. I never enjoyed the static stance training and always had a hard time to wrap my head around the reasoning. I'd prefer doing techniques and hitting things as, i feel, that is a quick indication of how your structure is. But to sit in horse for 30 minutes? not for me, thanks.

[hskwarrior]

What i think is important is moving between stances as there is no static moment in time, you are always moving. I'm no teacher, so let's get that outta the way. I never enjoyed the static stance training and always had a hard time to wrap my head around the reasoning. I'd prefer doing techniques and hitting things as, i feel, that is a quick indication of how your structure is. But to sit in horse for 30 minutes? not for me, thanks.

Ok, i feel you. I don't think anyone really likes stance training. However, its my personal opinion that if you don't teach and build the foundation first then at some point a student will realize "****, i should have done that in the beginning stages" as an afterthought.

plus, i don't make my students do thirty minute stances. five minutes Sei Ping Ma's during class at most. Once i see that my students are getting it, i move on to the mobile side of training.

Will i ever stop teaching traditional stance training? NO. a definite NO. Some people look for that kind of training. in fact, one of my new students told me if i didn't incorporate stance training in my classes he would have gone to another school. But, i don't judge others for abandoning traditional stance training. i don't feel i should be judged by anyone for continuing doing so. * not saying thats what you're doing....just sayin.

[Brule]

To each their own right. I found that at the end of stance training my legs were so drained that moving onto the next part in class i was useless as i had a hard time shifting stances and doing the running horse.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've done more stance training than I care to remember.
I've also been part of MA that don't do any.
I have seen great development in BOTH.
Boxers and MT fighters, judokas and wrestlers don't do any static stance training and they have great power and balance.
Powerlifters have the strongest legs in the world, they do no stance training ( although they kind of do).
Marathon runners, walkers and cyclists have the more endurance in their legs and they do NO stance training.

[hskwarrior]

Powerlifters have the strongest legs in the world, they do no stance training ( although they kind of do).
Marathon runners, walkers and cyclists have the more endurance in their legs and they do NO stance training.

yup, but these have nothing to do with traditional martial arts so no need to even ponder stance training right?

I think this is just an old school new school thing. a you won't but i would thing. shouldn't it be "to each his own" and as long as someone finds some kind of benefit from practicing stances, why knock em? no one even said stance training had anything to do with being a good fighter or not.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yup, but these have nothing to do with traditional martial arts so no need to even ponder stance training right?

I think this is just an old school new school thing. a you won't but i would thing. shouldn't it be "to each his own" and as long as someone finds some kind of benefit from practicing stances, why knock em? no one even said stance training had anything to do with being a good fighter or not.

I agree, but since we are debating it :D
What does static stance training hope to accomplish?

[Brule]

I agree, but since we are debating it :D
What does static stance training hope to accomplish?

For one, it helps you get really good at holding that stance. It also helps you fight through the urge to quit. Without pain, how can you appreciate rest, that type of thing.

For me, that's what it has done, nothing more.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For one, it helps you get really good at holding that stance. It also helps you fight through the urge to quit. Without pain, how can you appreciate rest, that type of thing.

For me, that's what it has done, nothing more.

I can't argue that it does help holding a stance, since that is all that you are doing.
As for the rest, good on you.
If you can get that from stance training that's great.

I once put a friend of mine through a 20 rep squat and after collapsing, puking and being sore for a week, he really learned how to appreciate pain, LOL !

[JamesC]

I can't argue that it does help holding a stance, since that is all that you are doing.
As for the rest, good on you.
If you can get that from stance training that's great.

I once put a friend of mine through a 20 rep squat and after collapsing, puking and being sore for a week, he really learned how to appreciate pain, LOL !

They reserved a special place in Hell for people that force other people to do Super Squats. You tend to see Jesus at some point and ask him if he wants to work in.

[YouKnowWho]

I think this is just an old school new school thing.

The day that you stay in your 6 x 8 feet prison cell, the day that you will appreciate your stance training.

- Rnning is better than walking.
- Walking is better than sitting (stance training).
- Sitting is better than laying down.
- Laying down is better than to be dead.

[hskwarrior]

The day that you stay in your 6 x 8 feet prison cell, the day that you will appreciate your stance training.

- Rnning is better than walking.
- Walking is better than sitting (stance training).
- Sitting is better than laying down.
- Laying down is better than to be dead.

I'd imagine you'd be a real monster if you trained in your cell to pass the time.

[Brule]

I can't argue that it does help holding a stance, since that is all that you are doing.
As for the rest, good on you.
If you can get that from stance training that's great.

I once put a friend of mine through a 20 rep squat and after collapsing, puking and being sore for a week, he really learned how to appreciate pain, LOL !

Hey man, no arguments here. Just sayin' that was one way, there are others and i agree that some are better. Sometimes we need to question the "why" with something other than, "just because we've always done it like that."

[sanjuro_ronin]

They reserved a special place in Hell for people that force other people to do Super Squats. You tend to see Jesus at some point and ask him if he wants to work in.

I see you've been there.

[hskwarrior]

I make my students do low squat jumping kicks, they can never get passed ten of them (well in the beginning).

[JamesC]

I see you've been there.

I don't like to talk about it. It was a terrible time in my life. Suffice it to say that I went back to Coach Rip's program not long after.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey man, no arguments here. Just sayin' that was one way, there are others and i agree that some are better. Sometimes we need to question the "why" with something other than, "just because we've always done it like that."

For sure and I will tell you this:
Regardless of your leg endurance, stance training is isometric so unless you are used to it, it will kick your ass.

[hskwarrior]

What does static stance training hope to accomplish?

YOu know before my accident i used to do a lot of leg strengthening routines, i mean i was serious into building my legs and although they were strong, stance training was still a ***** on my legs.

All i know is that the new schoolers seem to gripe about why do you stance train, why do you do forms, why this why that? I have my gripes, but i don't waste my time cause i know old school and new school will never see eye to eye. I'm on the fence because i see both sides having great benefits.

Now, i know a few here will dispute the claim that stance training makes your legs a little stronger if you're not going to the gym. However, in speaking for my own personal experience, stance training was beneficial to me because after my accident i was too weak to go to the gym. I could barely sit in a horse stance for a few seconds at a time. Like i said, going to the gym was pointless for me because i had trouble lifting AIR at that time.

It was the stance training that caused my legs to start hurting (in a good way) for the first time since my accident. I had to re-learn and re-fire my leg muscles and to be honest stance training taught me to pay close attention to weight distribution on a different level cause i had to start over from scratch. For one, i couldn't feel my feet so i didn't know how much weight i was applying for a long time.

Anyways, for me, stance training was really beneficial. So, with that experience i pass what i've learned and use my self as an example. i know that after sitting in a kneeling horse for a bit the next day my calves hurt like i've been to the gym.

[YouKnowWho]

What does static stance training hope to accomplish?

To develop certain kind of "flexibility". I like to train the following static stance.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6512/13taibo5.jpg

The longer that I train, the lower that I can get, and the smaller angle that my low leg and my foot will be. It can help me to execute my "shin bite" a great deal.

Static stance training like this can help you to develop great single leg balance which give you confidence to use your leg.

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/3319/chang13tb.jpg

[Lucas]

an important factor when considering static stance training, imo, is the meditation. standing meditation can have great benefits, and you can meditate whilst doing any static stance training.

for stance training myself i prefer doing line stances, connecting all 8 basic stances in a flowing line and doing them through the full range of motion, until i start to get sloppy then i stop. thats is my favorite way to do focused stance training.

[hskwarrior]

for stance training myself i prefer doing line stances, connecting all 8 basic stances in a flowing line and doing them through the full range of motion, until i start to get sloppy then i stop. thats is my favorite way to do focused stance training.

I have one of those. It focuses on 5 stances only tho'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imYzO5BQU7g