Cross Training vs. Style Evolution

[YouKnowWho]

What's the difference between "cross training" and "style evolution"? Will you call that "evolution" if you change your Judo training from qi to no-gi?

If you train boxing, MT, wrestling, BJJ, and integrate those different skills into your own body, that's "cross training". If you select a major style such as wrestling and integrate boxing, MT, and BJJ into it by changing the basic wrestling training method, that's "style evolution" by my definition.

For example, if you use kick, punch, arm bridge, leg bite, downward separate hands to set up your "single leg", you train yourself this way, you also train others this way, you have brought something new into the wrestling system. You have just changed your sport wrestling into combat wrestling by integrating other combat elements into it. To me, that's "style evolution".

The difference between "cross training" and "style evolution" is whether you only care about yourself, or whether you also care about to "enhance" your major system by changing the basic training method. By using the TCMA term. you have just created some new forms (or introduce some new principles) into you evolved style for the future generation. If your style has 3 forms, why not create the 4th and 5th forms (or create a set of new drills) so the future generation can have much broad view of your originall style?

If the style of BJJ can be evolved from other system, all TCMA styles can be evolved in the 21th centry too. How hard will it be to integrate "single leg", "hip throw", "arm bar", "leg bar", ... into your current system by using your particular style technique to set up those moves?

Do you think we should keep our TCMA systems pure or should we "evolve"? What's your opinion on this?

[SPJ]

1. evolution of a school/style

originally, it is called gate or men or school and not so much style.

each school has core practice, core principles,

then more and more stuff may be added on but compliment the core practice.

such as ba ji men

depending on the lineage, some added shaolin inner court boxing

some added pi gua, ---

some added jin gang 8 postures

over time, the school will incorporate so much material from outside

---

but do we practice all of them, probably not.

however, some good ideas or practices were borrowed or exist across many schools.

2. crossing training happens at 2 levels

a. exchange between or among schools, such as xing yi, ba gua, tai chi

b. individual practitioner brings along or add more from his prior experience

so at the school level or at the individual level.

I teach you this and you teach me that in exchange etc etc.

--

:)

[SPJ]

evolution of a school or style

usually over several generations of dedicated practitioners

many and many people contribute to it.

1. convergence, different things are summarized to the same ideas (practices and principles)

2. divergence or derivatives, from one idea we derive more practices--

it goes both ways.

---

:)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

All systems of martial arts must evolve, if not they become stagnant. Now take this example in regards to striking. Boxing is considered by many a very effective style of striking. There are four basic punches in boxing- jab, cross, hook, uppercut. There are variations of these and several different combinations, but these are the four basic strikes.

Pretty much all of these you should be able to find in any Kung Fu style, they may have a different name but they have the same mechanics. Now take into account the delivery system and how these techniques are trained in regards to their effectiveness. A boxer can throw a jab and crack someone with it because they have thrown it hundreds of times before on a heavy bag, on mitts, and while sparring someone. If the Kung Fu player has a similiar approach, he will be able to do the same. If he has spent more time posturing, punching air, and performing this jab while doing a form, chances are his delivery system and his ability to use it in a pressure situation went down significantly.

This would be an example I believe of style evolution if you want to call it that. The system already contains the technique, so it's not something added or newly learned, simply a change in delivery system or training method to make it more effective.

Now this can work also for other styles in comparison to Kung Fu. TCMA are for the most part very rooted systems, meaning stance training is an important foundation to build upon. Leg strength and transitioning ability is gained through proper stance training, and is very important for other styles, particurarly grappling. If I am clinched with an opponent and have under/over hook on their arms and they are pushing through and powering, dropping the weight into the front leg similiar to bow and arrow stance and upshifting your weight onto the underhooked arm will throw them off balance, allowing you to follow up with a throw or strike. The movement and dynamics of rooting is what is important, if you want to chop down a tree you start with the trunk, but if it is too strong it will stay uprooted.

I believe people are way into what they believe are "pure" systems, when in reality TCMA, just like all other systems of fighting, are systems put together from various techniques and "training methods" that were developed through trial and error and combat testing. The masters of old would have gladly learned new and improved training methods to deliver their techniques more effectively. Why some here in modern times can't or won't I will never know.

[SPJ]

there are many examples of both cross training and evolution of a school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm97SyXfyoQ

li rui dong incoporated some shaolin stuff (hard) and tai chi together. (also influenced by xing yi and ba gua)

they also practice jin gang 8 postures.

just like ba ji men.

however, ba ji men refined or added some different flavors to jin gang 8 postures.

---

:)

[TenTigers]

you start with cross training, and when you teach your method, it becomes style evolution.

[bawang]

All systems of martial arts must evolve

martial arts never evolves, only devolves. theres nothing new to learn, only things to relearn.

mma has reached the peak of human fighting knowledge in ten years.

[Hardwork108]

martial arts never evolves, only devolves

You are wrong!

In the old days people fought with pillows and tickled each other with feathers. It is only nowadays that the Western MMA fighters use their deadly fists and their deadlier kicks, to hurt their opponents......

Don't you know anything about the "realistic" Western scientific fighting methods???:D

[bawang]

why you hate "western" fighting? you are from western world.

[Hardwork108]

why you hate "western" fighting? you are from western world.

Who said I "hate" Western fighting?

Who said I am from the Western World?

I only hate the Western ignorance of Eastern fighting methodologies.;)

[bawang]

for 400 years wing chun has not won even a single military entrance exam, out of over 300 winners. you are the one irgnorant about the east, since u chose the sh1ttiest fighting style in the world.

[Hardwork108]

for 400 years wing chun has not won even a single military entrance exam. the winners are all longfst.

I am very happy for them. :)

[bawang]

over 300 winners. not one is wing chun.

[wenshu]

I only hate the Western ignorance of Eastern fighting methodologies.;)

Yes, you have demonstrated your authoritative knowledge of "Eastern fighting methodologies".

[Hardwork108]

over 300 winners. not one is wing chun.

That makes me even happier. :)

What about Chow Gar, Pak Mei, Five Ancestor Fist, Fujian White Crane, Piquazhang, etc?

[Hardwork108]

Yes, you have demonstrated your authoritative knowledge of "Eastern fighting methodologies".

It is not about "my" knowledge of the TCMAs, it is about the LACK of knowledge of those kung fu-Clueless "modernists" who criticize the TCMAs, without even possessing basic knowledge of the methodologies they are badmouthing.

[bawang]

white crane and piguaquan had winners. because they are actually legit martial arts taht are not dogsh1t.

[Hardwork108]

white crane and piguaquan had winners. because they are actually legit martial arts.

And Pakmei and Chow Gar, are not legitimate martial arts systems????


Hey, maybe you can invite me to your cave one day for a coffee? :rolleyes:

[YouKnowWho]

martial arts never evolves, only devolves. theres nothing new to learn, only things to relearn.

mma has reached the peak of human fighting knowledge in ten years.

That's not true IMO. Let's take the wrestling "single leg" for example. How do you shoot in so your opponent cannot kick you, knee you, elbow you, or punch you? If you bite your shin into your oppponent's front leg, he can't kick you or knee you at that moment. If you build arm bridges by separating your opponent's arms from inside out, he cannot elbow you or punch you at that moment. Does this kind of entering strategy exist in western wrestling? I don'tr think so because it's a sport. Since in the sport environment, your opponent is not allowed to hit you when you shoot. Does this entering strategy exist in TCMA? I don't think so either. For some unknown reason our ancestor just didn't do a good job in the area of kick, punch, lock, throw integration. The day that we can integrate the ground game into TCMA, we can then say that the TCMA will have no more room to evolve. Until then I'm still interesting to figure out how many different ways that I can use my kick and punch to set up my "hip throw" because those information is not available in both TCMA and foreign MA..

[bawang]

It is not about "my" knowledge of the TCMAs, it is about the LACK of knowledge of those kung fu-Clueless "modernists" who criticize the TCMAs, without even possessing basic knowledge of the methodologies they are badmouthing.

i am chilese. you are colobian puto. you have no authority on kung fu.

[Hardwork108]

i am chilese. you are colobian puto. you have no authority on kung fu.

Right now I believe that my neighbors pet labrador knows more about kung fu than you do!

By the way, be careful about insulting Colombians, because you may end up finding out that your MMA is not as "realistic" as you thought.;)

[Lucas]

bawang is all MMA pro

[wenshu]

It is not about "my" knowledge of the TCMAs, it is about the LACK of knowledge of those kung fu-Clueless "modernists" who criticize the TCMAs, without even possessing basic knowledge of the methodologies they are badmouthing.

Actually, it is.

An arbitrary determination of another's lack of knowledge is an implicit presumption that you possess such knowledge.

The only thing that you have demonstrated thus far is an inability to distinguish contemporary 身法.

[bawang]

That's not true IMO. Let's take the wrestling "single leg" for example. How do you shoot in so your opponent cannot kick you, knee you, elbow you, or punch you? .
惊上取下

For some unknown reason our ancestor just didn't do a good job in the area of kick, punch, lock, throw integration.
instead of the failing of your teacher, you blame chinese RACE. i love and revere chinese martial culture so i would never dare speak like that, but you from taiwan.

you refuse to admit your own inferiority, and blame your ANCESTORS. there is nothing chinese about you.

[Hardwork108]

bawang is all MMA pro

And here I am thinking that Bawang is an all MALE pro......:p

[Hardwork108]

Actually, it is.

An arbitrary determination of another's lack of knowledge is an implicit presumption that you possess such knowledge.

Not really. I know that Dave Ross is not an Astro Physicist, but neither am I.


The only thing that you have demonstrated thus far is an inability to distinguish contemporary 身法.

Feel free to distinguish it for me....

[YouKnowWho]

惊上取下.
That's the general idea but I'm afraid it's still too risky. An elbow drop on the back of your head when you shoot in can kill you.

In the past hundreds years, the wrestling was considered as "sport" both in China and in foreign countries, The safe "enter strategies" was never developed.


instead of the failing of your teacher, you blame chinese RACE. i love and revere chinese martial culture so i would never dare speak like that, but you from taiwan.
In the past 30 years I have tried to dig those information out of the TCMA system. I have found very little information in this area. Most Chinese striking art systems don't talk much about throwing. The Chinese throwing art system also doesn't talk much about kick and punch. It's just like a guy who "cross train" both boxing and Judo. Does "boxing and Judo integration" style exist in our world? I don't think so. Who is going to do that integration job? There is nobody else but ourselves.

[bawang]

In the past 30 years I have tried to dig those information out of the TCMA system.

from where and how u were looking?

An elbow drop on the back of your head when you shoot in can kill you.

not if you focus your qi to that area. golden bell 101.

[YouKnowWho]

from where and how u were looking?
I have several hundreds CMA books in my collection. I also have learned more than 50 forms from different TCMA styles.

[bawang]

have you looked at qijiguangs boxing treatise from 1550.

a lot of supplementary technique are not included in forms. especially new styles when the most flashy techinques are in the forms for performance. internal boxing had 2 short forms with ten moves and over 30 free techniques.

[YouKnowWho]

have you looked at qijiguangs boxing treatise from 1550.

a lot of supplementary technique are not included in forms. internal boxing had 2 short forms and 30 free techniques.

You are talking about 紀效新書(Ji Xiao Xin Su). That book is too generalize and not enough detail information for me to use.

[bawang]

how is that book generalized? it was very detailed.
it showed what empty hand combat the elite chinese troops trained. half wrestling half boxing, and using wrestling and boxing combos together, and thoroughly described them.

[YouKnowWho]

Could you show me an example from that book?

[bawang]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZqVqDl3UKos/SPtF82tZqcI/AAAAAAAAAFk/QEj1hkhpNvM/S220/%E5%9F%8B%E4%BC%8F%E5%8A%BF%E2%80%94%E2%80%94%E6%8 8%9A%E7%BB%A7%E5%85%89%E3%80%8A%E7%BA%AA%E6%95%88% E6%96%B0%E4%B9%A6%E3%80%8B%E5%8D%B7%E5%8D%81%E5%9B %9B%E3%80%8A%E6%8B%B3%E7%BB%8F%E6%8D%B7%E8%A6%81%E 7%AF%87%E3%80%8B.jpg

[YouKnowWho]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZqVqDl3UKos/SPtF82tZqcI/AAAAAAAAAFk/QEj1hkhpNvM/S220/%E5%9F%8B%E4%BC%8F%E5%8A%BF%E2%80%94%E2%80%94%E6%8 8%9A%E7%BB%A7%E5%85%89%E3%80%8A%E7%BA%AA%E6%95%88% E6%96%B0%E4%B9%A6%E3%80%8B%E5%8D%B7%E5%8D%81%E5%9B %9B%E3%80%8A%E6%8B%B3%E7%BB%8F%E6%8D%B7%E8%A6%81%E 7%AF%87%E3%80%8B.jpg

I don't see that picture can help me in the area of kick, punch, lock, throw integration. It's too abstract for my taste.

[bawang]

its a groin punch that can be followed by a throw or kick. description is right there

you have hundreds of books, and you dont read the one written by the general who killed samurai like small baby dogs at a cantonese new year party.

[YouKnowWho]

its a groin punch that can be followed by a throw or kick. description is right there.
That's the problem. Not enough detail such as how to change a groin punch into a throw, what throw to change into it.


you have hundreds of books, and you dont read the one written by the general who killed samurai like small baby dogs at a cantonese new year party.
Most of the information in that book are for weapon fight. I'm not that into weapon fight myself. As far as the open hand skill, information in that book is for soldiers who has not much knowledge in TCMA.

[wenshu]

Not really. I know that Dave Ross is not an Astro Physicist, but neither am I.

You are right. That statement was imprecise at best. Fair enough.


Feel free to distinguish it for me....

Notwithstanding that some would likely argue they are both "contemporary" performances:

"Contemporary" 身法 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E2JeUXQRa8

"Traditional" 身法 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-XA1ufkt4Q&feature=related

Notice the differences; in the "contemporary" demo the movements are all arms and the stances are ridiculously wide. Also, the dan pai jiao are done with straight legs (typical contemporary movement). In the "traditional" demonstration the movements are initiated from the waist, with narrow stances and hand movements kept close to the body which they follow.The slap kicks pivot from the knee. In gong bu tui zhang the palm does not go past the knee. Of course you are aware of the three internal and external harmonies?

If you practiced with a super harmonious authentically traditional internalized methodological sifu you would obviously know all of this.

[Darthlawyer]

If the Kung Fu player has a similiar approach, he will be able to do the same. If he has spent more time posturing, punching air, and performing this jab while doing a form, chances are his delivery system and his ability to use it in a pressure situation went down significantly.



The idea that punching while using a form DECREASES ones ability is a bit of a silly thought. While I understand you might think that forms practice is less effective training than say mitt practice, the idea expressed here I find a little baffling. Forms practice, when done properly is excellent training for stability and movement as well as communicating some basic theory regarding fighting tactics. Additionally, the idea that "punching air" is less effective than punching bags or mitts is preposterous. Find me a boxer or MMA of champion-level caliber that doesn't routinely train "shadow boxing" of some kind. No puncher lands 100% of all their punches. All real fighters train "punching air" as well as striking some actual surface.

The trouble with forms training is that many kung fu hobbyists train forms as either their only training, or that they perform their forms in an unfocused manner. If each move is practiced forcefully (i.e. actually punching with power and speed) and with focus (i.e. actually picturing an opponent and then application of that technique), then forms training will have greater benefit. Now, I wouldn't encourage anyone to *only* do forms, nor would I encourage someone to *only* punch a heavy bag, or to *only* spar.

For example in one early form in my school's system there is a simple technique where the left hand hooks and pulls down while the right hand strikes forward, presumably where the opponent's hand is no longer protecting the chest. I had been performing that move in a traditional TCMA form for several months prior to anyone ever suggesting that I try to use that move in a sparring session. When I attempted to use it, I found it came very naturally, having been repeatedly trained into my muscle memory. To experiment, I tried performing the same move with the stance and hands reversed, and it felt very awkward. (Note that I have trained in western boxing for years before, and I fight ambidextrally- I'm equally comfortable fighting south paw as well as orthodox) To me, I'm convinced that the form training made that simple move easier for me to apply it.

Perhaps it might be more efficient for a fighter to train the same move over and over again to make those small batches of moves better. However, I think that a fighter who has a greater library of available techniques that he is comfortable using is harder to predict, and therefore, more dangerous.

I think the big problem in comparing TCMA training results with boxing results,or more accurately MMA results, is that often MMA fighters train for far greater hours. Personally, I believe that's because MMA practitioners are often more violent and aggressive and are actually training for an actual fight... because they are more likely to start a fight. Perhaps I'm a bit biased based upon seeing enough MMA trained d-bags picking bar fights whenever there is a PPV match at the local watering hole. I've not ever seen someone start a Kung Fu fight in person.

[wenshu]

the general who killed samurai like small baby dogs at a cantonese new year party.
http://www.rhughesrealty.com/gallery/albums/userpics/Taxi_Driver_Applause.gif

[KC Elbows]

Does "boxing and Judo integration" style exist in our world? I don't think so. Who is going to do that integration job? There is nobody else but ourselves.

Post of the freekin year.

You and Bawang's posts are often of great use to me for separate reasons. You often speak of things you routinely use, Bawang puts a historical perspective that is also useful.

I've met a good number of teachers in China, and the same problems exist in the cities and countryside of China as exist here. I value that I have access to such a great group HERE(others included, Iron Eagle and David Jamieson happening to win top of the list this week).

The number of people in kung fu(much less martial arts in general) who have such disparate voices with disparate experience to compare notes with is tiny. The number willing to use those notes, even smaller.

That said, Iron Eagle and David Jamieson are still beating the tar out of everyone this week on the forum, cudos to them.

[KC Elbows]

Bawang, generals in the east or west never once touted the methodologies required for dueling, and mma is dueling. War requires different practices. Enter a one on one fight with the sword methods of a roman centurion, and you will lose against anyone with skill. This is the facts.

[KC Elbows]

The idea that punching while using a form DECREASES ones ability is a bit of a silly thought. While I understand you might think that forms practice is less effective training than say mitt practice, the idea expressed here I find a little baffling. Forms practice, when done properly is excellent training for stability and movement as well as communicating some basic theory regarding fighting tactics. Additionally, the idea that "punching air" is less effective than punching bags or mitts is preposterous. Find me a boxer or MMA of champion-level caliber that doesn't routinely train "shadow boxing" of some kind. No puncher lands 100% of all their punches. All real fighters train "punching air" as well as striking some actual surface.

The trouble with forms training is that many kung fu hobbyists train forms as either their only training, or that they perform their forms in an unfocused manner. If each move is practiced forcefully (i.e. actually punching with power and speed) and with focus (i.e. actually picturing an opponent and then application of that technique), then forms training will have greater benefit. Now, I wouldn't encourage anyone to *only* do forms, nor would I encourage someone to *only* punch a heavy bag, or to *only* spar.

For example in one early form in my school's system there is a simple technique where the left hand hooks and pulls down while the right hand strikes forward, presumably where the opponent's hand is no longer protecting the chest. I had been performing that move in a traditional TCMA form for several months prior to anyone ever suggesting that I try to use that move in a sparring session. When I attempted to use it, I found it came very naturally, having been repeatedly trained into my muscle memory. To experiment, I tried performing the same move with the stance and hands reversed, and it felt very awkward. (Note that I have trained in western boxing for years before, and I fight ambidextrally- I'm equally comfortable fighting south paw as well as orthodox) To me, I'm convinced that the form training made that simple move easier for me to apply it.

Perhaps it might be more efficient for a fighter to train the same move over and over again to make those small batches of moves better. However, I think that a fighter who has a greater library of available techniques that he is comfortable using is harder to predict, and therefore, more dangerous.

I think the big problem in comparing TCMA training results with boxing results,or more accurately MMA results, is that often MMA fighters train for far greater hours. Personally, I believe that's because MMA practitioners are often more violent and aggressive and are actually training for an actual fight... because they are more likely to start a fight. Perhaps I'm a bit biased based upon seeing enough MMA trained d-bags picking bar fights whenever there is a PPV match at the local watering hole. I've not ever seen someone start a Kung Fu fight in person.

A bodyguard in certain eras of Chinese history was more likely to face violence than a mma fighter.

Forms means you HAVE to work your bread and butter moves. Forms does not get you out of practicing individual moves OFTEN.

[Hardwork108]

its a groin punch that can be followed by a throw or kick. description is right there

There is a variation of that punch in the Wing Chun lineage that I practice....

[Hardwork108]

You are right. That statement was imprecise at best. Fair enough.

No problem.




Notwithstanding that some would likely argue they are both "contemporary" performances:
I would say that the more accurate way of putting it would be to say that if the performer is a genuine TCMA practitioner, then certain aspects of the traditional and contemporary will over lap.



"Contemporary" 身法 [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E2JeUXQRa8"]

Beautifully performed, just like the Baji form which i posted in the other thread that I started. I also saw some essence in it. That is, I would not discard it as "garbage" kung fu, too readily, and that is because some genuine kung fu people also perform certain forms in a similar manner, depending on the "occassion".


"Traditional" 身法 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-XA1ufkt4Q&feature=related

Yes, this is more traditional and as my Siu lam Wing Chun sifu would put it, the man is using fighting stances.

However, to really know wether the first guy has kung fu or no, one would need to face him, and not base his judgment on type of wushu/kung fu form he was performing in that video.


Notice the differences; in the "contemporary" demo the movements are all arms and the stances are ridiculously wide. Also, the dan pai jiao are done with straight legs (typical contemporary movement). In the "traditional" demonstration the movements are initiated from the waist, with narrow stances and hand movements kept close to the body which they follow.The slap kicks pivot from the knee. In gong bu tui zhang the palm does not go past the knee. Of course you are aware of the three internal and external harmonies?

If you practiced with a super harmonious authentically traditional internalized methodological sifu you would obviously know all of this.

I know enough to know the difference. The fact is that what you are saying goes back to the Baji thread where I more than explained myself. I still maintain that the form that I posted was esthetically beautiful and had enough essence to make it interesting, but no it was not purely traditional Baji.

However, just like the first video that you posted here, I saw enough kung fu in them for me to not want to get hit by any of the two exponents performing the "wushu" forms.

[Lucas]

pan qingfu is an example of traditional meets contemporary.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The idea that punching while using a form DECREASES ones ability is a bit of a silly thought. While I understand you might think that forms practice is less effective training than say mitt practice, the idea expressed here I find a little baffling. Forms practice, when done properly is excellent training for stability and movement as well as communicating some basic theory regarding fighting tactics. Additionally, the idea that "punching air" is less effective than punching bags or mitts is preposterous. Find me a boxer or MMA of champion-level caliber that doesn't routinely train "shadow boxing" of some kind. No puncher lands 100% of all their punches. All real fighters train "punching air" as well as striking some actual surface.

Forms have their place, shadow boxing has it's place, bag work and mitt work and other resitance training has it's place. Yes, all real fighters do punch air and shadow box, they also do lots of resistance training I talked about. Do you see boxers or MMAers doing forms? You stated that you trained boxing, ever do a form in boxing? Shadow boxing and forms are not the same thing. A form is a set of movements done in exactly the same manner with a set of defensive and offensive principles in play. Shadow boxing is a freestyle set of techniques that one does without a pre planned action, but more so a reaction to what your mind and body are telling you to do.

I understand your logic, but you have obviously mistaken mine. Yes, forms and shadow boxing certainly have their place, and I did not infer that they did not, but those alone are not good enough training tools to make a well rounded martial artist, that you can quote me on.;)

[bawang]

That's the problem. Not enough detail such as how to change a groin punch into a throw, what throw to change into it.


the book uses code words and is 500 years old. if you be honest and say you dont understand, i will explain it to you.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I think the big problem in comparing TCMA training results with boxing results,or more accurately MMA results, is that often MMA fighters train for far greater hours. Personally, I believe that's because MMA practitioners are often more violent and aggressive and are actually training for an actual fight... because they are more likely to start a fight. Perhaps I'm a bit biased based upon seeing enough MMA trained d-bags picking bar fights whenever there is a PPV match at the local watering hole. I've not ever seen someone start a Kung Fu fight in person.

Complete and utter bull sh**it!! Most boxers and MMA fighters who are serious about their training you won't find out in a bar starting sh**it, they have better things to do, like training.:eek:

Just because you go to a bar and get picked on by some TapOut wearing douchebag who has probably never stepped foot into any martial arts gym in his life does not constitute making a sweeping generalization about a whole group, kind of like me saying all Kung Fu guys are limp wristed, hippy passifists who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

Also, how does one start a Kung Fu fight?? Does one person jump down in bow and arrow and another in horse stance and begin reenacting a Shaw Bros. film.:D

[SPJ]

evolution to add "new" or branch out.

de evolution to return to root, source or original.

both happen at any single time.

for example, you may trace chen tai ji to chen fa ke (new frame)


in comparison to chen fa ke's father.

you may trace yang tai chi back to yang lu chan.

or pre yang chen chang xing.

something new

something old

something borrowed

something blue

--

ok

I am going to see the movie starred by kate hudson

why

I had crush for her mom, goldie hawn in 1970s.

http://classictvbeauties.com/goldiehawn.html

:D

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qlMqqc7YdE

the movie.

:)

[SPJ]

my point is that if something is borrowed from other style

we may return it or restore it back to original state, too.

:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

The idea that punching while using a form DECREASES ones ability is a bit of a silly thought. While I understand you might think that forms practice is less effective training than say mitt practice, the idea expressed here I find a little baffling. Forms practice, when done properly is excellent training for stability and movement as well as communicating some basic theory regarding fighting tactics. Additionally, the idea that "punching air" is less effective than punching bags or mitts is preposterous. Find me a boxer or MMA of champion-level caliber that doesn't routinely train "shadow boxing" of some kind. No puncher lands 100% of all their punches. All real fighters train "punching air" as well as striking some actual surface.

This is quite incorrect.
Lets forget the shadow boxing thing for a moment, shadow boxing is NOT forms NOR is it designed to develop speed, power or anything like that.

Striking into the air does in fact dsecrease muscle output because of how the body truly works, with no resistence to stop the accelration of the strike the body will do that itself, thus putting on the braks so to speak on any strike and the body will also NOT accelerate to the speed that it can ( peak acceleration) because it KNOWS there is no target to "stop it".
The also leads to incorrect follow through or even the absence of it.
On top of that, striking the air with no resistence doe snot develop the correct ability to throw combinations since the strikes are not actually hitting anything they do not develop the ability to hit "through" the combinations.
Add to that the fact that the structure is NOT being tested since there is no opposing force that is meeting the strikes - for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction- the strikes structure is not only NOT being tested or developed, the body is never learning the ability to withstand the recoil of impact.
I could go one but the truth be it said that since EVERY MA actually advocates hitting something to develop power, I have no idea where you would get such a preposterous view of the biomechanics of striking.

[evrchangingfist]

That's not true IMO. Let's take the wrestling "single leg" for example. How do you shoot in so your opponent cannot kick you, knee you, elbow you, or punch you? If you bite your shin into your oppponent's front leg, he can't kick you or knee you at that moment. If you build arm bridges by separating your opponent's arms from inside out, he cannot elbow you or punch you at that moment.(but he can do a over or under hook) Does this kind of entering strategy exist in western wrestling? I don'tr think so because it's a sport(sport and street are to different things). Since in the sport environment, your opponent is not allowed to hit you when you shoot.(yes he can) Does this entering strategy exist in TCMA? I don't think so either. For some unknown reason our ancestor just didn't do a good job in the area of kick, punch, lock, throw integration. The day that we can integrate the ground game into TCMA, we can then say that the TCMA will have no more room to evolve. Until then I'm still interesting to figure out how many different ways that I can use my kick and punch to set up my "hip throw" because those information is not available in both TCMA and foreign MA..

Research catch as catch can and bare knuckle boxing from a hundred years ago you will see integration or maybe Pankration from 2000 years ago WMA was not codified before then, any thing went kick punch lock throw ground fight oh and what about Chinese dog boxing this incorporates all components does it not and the modern Sanda of the Chinese Military or maybe Sambo or Systema of the Russians James Figg more than 200 hundred years ago was doing this in England research and lets not forget Jun Fan Lee and his conceptual idea of combining and integrating. Baritsu,Dans de rue savate Kick punch throw grapple Even in Wing Chun there was a bounty hunter that incorporated all components to subdue his catch.Cross training or evolution will not get you there alone strategy tactics and techniques will,If your intended focus is integration to be seamless and with out interruption this is how you must train,there are so many styles and techniques what fits with your base.what will flow with your intent and tactics.If you do not evolve your fight system just becomes a art to show and perform or for competition true combat is through experimentation with the odds not in your favor to see if what you are doing works.You practice against your style you can achieve great things in your system but maybe not from a trained or untrained adversary from another system or just a street thug .Sanda is on the right path and will become the answer to TCMA in the future what about the Chinese MMA league.These things are all around past present and soon to be future. TCMA or WMA or styles from any other region where designed to deal with adversary in there region or given area,martial arts is global now you can see it on you tube DVD's etc and any town you can find Martial systems from all over the world what happened to develop and over come.Or do we just show form and squabble over what style is best in TCMA or do some thing to grow and develop.

[Yao Sing]

Personally, I believe that's because MMA practitioners are often more violent and aggressive and are actually training for an actual fight... because they are more likely to start a fight. Perhaps I'm a bit biased based upon seeing enough MMA trained d-bags picking bar fights whenever there is a PPV match at the local watering hole. I've not ever seen someone start a Kung Fu fight in person.

You should have been around in the 70's when "Five Fingers of Death" and "Chinese Connection"were playing at the local drive-in. Going for popcorn during intermission was for fighters only. :D

[MasterKiller]

Personally, I believe that's because MMA practitioners are often more violent and aggressive and are actually training for an actual fight... because they are more likely to start a fight. Perhaps I'm a bit biased based upon seeing enough MMA trained d-bags picking bar fights whenever there is a PPV match at the local watering hole. I've not ever seen someone start a Kung Fu fight in person.

True dat! Check out these totally aggressive MMA douches!

And those shirts are totally f@ggy, too!

[David Jamieson]

Man, the stink of stupid is out of control in this big circle jerk of mma vs Kung Fu.

seriously people, wise up.
If you like your thing, good for you.
I like mine, it ain't the same as yours and I don't do what you do.

The end.

Your training is NOT better and neither is mine.
Both are just training.

period.

sweet lord, what is so dang difficult to understand about that?

[Drake]

Until someone here can stop a bullet with their teeth, you are really just subscribing to personal preference.

Like with BJJ. I know it, I see the value of it, and I see what they are getting at. I don't like it, though, no matter how much the Army makes me do it.

[SavvySavage]

True dat! Check out these totally aggressive MMA douches!

And those shirts are totally f@ggy, too!


Masterkiller,

Are you the hot blonde in the front? Lol. I want to train at that school. It's true for martial arts schools as it is for bars. Girls bring the guys in and with the guys come the money. If I was deciding between two schools of equal caliber curriculums I would go to the one with the hotter women in it or the one that puts out the strongest illusion of hotter women.

[BakShaolinEC]

Complete and utter bull sh**it!! Most boxers and MMA fighters who are serious about their training you won't find out in a bar starting sh**it, they have better things to do, like training.:eek:

Just because you go to a bar and get picked on by some TapOut wearing douchebag who has probably never stepped foot into any martial arts gym in his life does not constitute making a sweeping generalization about a whole group, kind of like me saying all Kung Fu guys are limp wristed, hippy passifists who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

Also, how does one start a Kung Fu fight?? Does one person jump down in bow and arrow and another in horse stance and begin reenacting a Shaw Bros. film.:D

this is some funny sh*t but also so true. I know a couple MMA guys that don't even go to the bar anymore. infact mma changed their ways and they rather train then go out drinking.

[David Jamieson]

also...MK..are you hoverhanding on that woman's breast? :D

[David Jamieson]

this is some funny sh*t but also so true. I know a couple MMA guys that don't even go to the bar anymore. infact mma changed their ways and they rather train then go out drinking.

saratonin, endorphins and dopamine.

Cheaper than booze and only take about 15 minutes to start the flow. :p

[MasterKiller]

also...MK..are you hoverhanding on that woman's breast? :D

What....me....hoverhanding??? Why, I never!

Actually, I was making my "We just went 6-0 in front of 1,500 people" victory fist. ;)

[MightyB]

If the style of BJJ can be evolved from other system, all TCMA styles can be evolved in the 21th centry too. How hard will it be to integrate "single leg", "hip throw", "arm bar", "leg bar", ... into your current system by using your particular style technique to set up those moves?

Do you think we should keep our TCMA systems pure or should we "evolve"? What's your opinion on this?

Difficult question. I think if you promote yourself as a style lineage holder, then stay pure because you shouldn't call a "cow" a "horse". Be honest about who you are, what you do, and what you're teaching.

[Syn7]

I don't understand this fascination with keeping their MA's "pure". That's like saying there is nothing more to learn. Personally, I prefer to focus more on the martial than the art. The art part is cool but too often I find people confuse it with actual combat ability.

[MightyB]

I don't understand this fascination with keeping their MA's "pure". That's like saying there is nothing more to learn. Personally, I prefer to focus more on the martial than the art. The art part is cool but too often I find people confuse it with actual combat ability.

Call me old fashioned but I can't see the value of letting someone sign up for a Shaolin Kung Fu School where they actually are learning Tae Kwon Do.

[YouKnowWho]

stay pure ...

When Bill Gate spent $7,000 to obtain his DOS and sold to IBM, one day he saw Apple Lisa desk top user interface, he said, "I want it." He didn't say, "I need to keep DOS pure". His DOS has evolved into Window today. Back then IBM thought desktop Icon was not pure DOS. Today IBM is not even in PC market.

[MightyB]

Rumor has it that Dos 8 (the last and final version released sometime in the 90's) exists for those who are willing to find it.

That's my point - you have to have the existence of shuai jiao, mantis, and long fist to have them in your martial background. Lineage holders are crucial for the advancement of martial arts and it's imperative that they try to stay pure within their lineage.

[Yao Sing]

When Bill Gate spent $7,000 to obtain his DOS and sold to IBM, one day he saw Apple Lisa desk top user interface, he said, "I want it." He didn't say, "I need to keep DOS pure". His DOS has evolved into Window today. Back then IBM thought desktop Icon was not pure DOS. Today IBM is not even in PC market.

Not exactly true* but we see your point. Everything we have wouldn't exist without the things that came before.



*Windows was originally a shell (progman is a DOS program) for DOS until NT/OS2 (Microsoft & IBM collaboration until they split). Windows continued DOS for legacy compatibility.

[Syn7]

Call me old fashioned but I can't see the value of letting someone sign up for a Shaolin Kung Fu School where they actually are learning Tae Kwon Do.

But anyone teaching TKD as Shaolin is a fraud. Now if a genuine shoalin master added some TKD kicks into his program because he found those particular kicks to be of benefit to his style and he's honest about it, then why not? I was taught that style was the approach to movement, not the actual movement itself.

Unless you are only about forms and demo does purity really matter. In other words, the art side of it. If combat is your focus then whatever works, WORKS. period. If it suits you and works who cares if its TKD or Shaolin. If combat is your focus, that is.

[Syn7]

That's my point - you have to have the existence of shuai jiao, mantis, and long fist to have them in your martial background. Lineage holders are crucial for the advancement of martial arts and it's imperative that they try to stay pure within their lineage.

Sure... And one should be in a museum doing purity demos for posterity. It is art after all. But do we want those guys training our armies? No.

And correct me if I'm wrong but the main focus on MA's is combat, no???

Who would you rather have in a lethal bar fight, A special forces close combat specialist with years of field experience or a Mantis guru with papers saying he holds the lineage???


Don't get me wrong, both are cool. I'm not saying we do away with purity, by any means. I'm just saying purity should know it's place.

Which art school is more likely to produce great artists, a school dedicated to teaching about impressionists from 1870 - 1880 or a school that starts with the very basics of all art and moves through it all in less detail? those who decide afterwards to specialise should feel welcome to do so. But it doesn't take much thinking to see who will produce more quality artists. Not to say that they both won't have their moments, but on average on will do better tha the other.

[SPJ]

When Bill Gate spent $7,000 to obtain his DOS and sold to IBM, one day he saw Apple Lisa desk top user interface, he said, "I want it." He didn't say, "I need to keep DOS pure". His DOS has evolved into Window today. Back then IBM thought desktop Icon was not pure DOS. Today IBM is not even in PC market.

stay "pure" or stay focused nothing wrong with that

honing on a certain set of skills to excel

but also open to other thoughts or stuff

apple core is to innovate an item that people will love and simple to use

mac, iMac, ipod, ipod touch, ipad etc etc (civillian or general public)

MS core is "office" suite (student, professional, business)

IBM core is devoloping machines and services related to business

HP core the same as above

Sony core is entertainment, movies, music and machines related to entertainment

on and on.

:)

[Pork Chop]

Just stumbled across some footage of some guys using their traditional martial arts in full contact a classical way (http://youtu.be/LJSZ1TwjcsQ)

[YouKnowWho]

I can't see the value of letting someone sign up for a Shaolin Kung Fu School where they actually are learning Tae Kwon Do.
As long as you still teach the "original Shaolin Kung Fu", by adding some additional TKD is a PLUS and not a MINUS.

longfist + TKD > longfist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G_VCcZrahg

[SPJ]

as pure as a violet

off topic a bit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJWHKOMoI_4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_KhPNxZks0

a song from 1962.

back to regular discussion

about forces or factors contributing to evolution or integration of 'new" things

:)

[MightyB]

As long as you still teach the "original Shaolin Kung Fu", by adding some additional TKD is a PLUS and not a MINUS.

longfist + TKD > longfist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G_VCcZrahg

You're describing what I call general evolution within a style. It happens continuously and is always going to happen. The long fist we use today isn't the same long fist of 20 years ago because all styles will adapt to the given environment of the time.

What I'm against is the 3 month Bruce Lee syndrome. We've all known the guy who takes 3 months of Judo, 3 months of BJJ, 3 months of TKD who suddenly becomes the next enlightened grandmaster preaching his "evolved style" to the masses.

Back to your original thread starter. Cross training is personal. If you develop something new during the course of your studies - call it something new. Don't teach TKD and call it long fist.

[YouKnowWho]

What I'm against is the 3 month Bruce Lee syndrome. We've all known the guy who takes 3 months of Judo, 3 months of BJJ, 3 months of TKD who suddenly becomes the next enlightened grandmaster preaching his "evolved style" to the masses.
Agree 100% with you there. Enhancement and "water down" are hard to distinguish sometime.

My teacher liked everything to be perfect. I had also met his brother in China. In his brother's opinion, as long as it works on his opponent, the "perfectness" is not that important.