Master Shi Guo Song Shaolin Praying Mantis Demonstration

[Xian]

Master Shi Guo Song Shaolin Praying Mantis Demonstration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNNIhU8Q-3g&feature=related

I dont know the Tang Lang from Shaolin, but for me it looks like parts of a form. Anyway I like his way of moving and going the form.


Kind Regards,
Xian

[Blacktiger]

Thats cool!!!

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Ugh, the bouncy motion with the hands again. I really wish the monks would adjust that. I've never seen any truly old school Preying Mantis masters (northern or southern) do this. I've trained in the 7 Star and Tai Chi Preying Mantis systems and I've never seen anyone do that. Along with Plum Blossom Preying Mantis, those systems are the closest thing you're going to get to Wang Lang's original style and in none of them do you apply the mantis hook in such a way. It's meant for grabbing and trapping! Why would you be all rubbery with it like that? Sorry, I'm just venting because I got docked some points in a tournament because I didn't do it that way.

[YouKnowWho]

Not sure which move that you are talking about. But if you are talking about the body vibration, it's the intemediate level training requirement that you can "use your body to pull your limbs". When you no longer be able to see the arms movement but only body movement, you have just developed the mantis Shenfa.

When a punch comes toward your face, you can move your arm to block it. You can also move your body, and let your body to move your arm to block it. The 2nd way is much harder to do. The advantage is even if you miss the block, your body is already moved out of the striking path.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

I'm talking about when the mantis hooks or claws are applied. And yes, moving the body to evade an attack is superior to blocking and much harder but that theory holds in many wushu styles. It seems especially integral to the internal styles but you don't actually see a "body vibration" like the one when he forms the mantis claw (if that's what you're talking about).

[B.Tunks]

Ugh, the bouncy motion with the hands again. I really wish the monks would adjust that. I've never seen any truly old school Preying Mantis masters (northern or southern) do this. I've trained in the 7 Star and Tai Chi Preying Mantis systems and I've never seen anyone do that. Along with Plum Blossom Preying Mantis, those systems are the closest thing you're going to get to Wang Lang's original style and in none of them do you apply the mantis hook in such a way. It's meant for grabbing and trapping! Why would you be all rubbery with it like that? Sorry, I'm just venting because I got docked some points in a tournament because I didn't do it that way.

The truth.

[Xian]

I dont know any Tang Lang, but for me it seems that he is not moving like he would do a Modern Wushu Form. Also the way he strikes. But again I have to say I dont know Tang Lang Principles.


Kind Regards,
Xian

[bawang]

i find it strange his class is 100% kids

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ugh, the bouncy motion with the hands again. I really wish the monks would adjust that. I've never seen any truly old school Preying Mantis masters (northern or southern) do this. I've trained in the 7 Star and Tai Chi Preying Mantis systems and I've never seen anyone do that. Along with Plum Blossom Preying Mantis, those systems are the closest thing you're going to get to Wang Lang's original style and in none of them do you apply the mantis hook in such a way. It's meant for grabbing and trapping! Why would you be all rubbery with it like that? Sorry, I'm just venting because I got docked some points in a tournament because I didn't do it that way.

It was "performance oriented", in other words, it looks cool for the kids and people that watch kung fu flicks.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

I get it, it's because he wanted to mimic the actual insect or something. I'm not so sure I've ever seen an actual mantis look like that when applying it's hooks on other bugs but it looks cool, whatever. I still can't help wincing every time I see this though. I think it originally came from that guy who played the senior monk in Jet Li's "Shaolin Temple." I can't remember his name but I remember him saying in an interview that he basically made up his own mantis style for the movie and that he hadn't had any previous training. Hence this notion that you need to be loose with your mantis hooks and rock back and forth like you were the insect itself. Of course, if someone tried applying a mantis grab like that on a real 7 Star or Tai Chi Mantis master they'd probably wind up on their ass.

[LFJ]

I think it originally came from that guy who played the senior monk in Jet Li's "Shaolin Temple." I can't remember his name but I remember him saying in an interview that he basically made up his own mantis style for the movie and that he hadn't had any previous training.

Yu Hai... he create that modernized mantis routine, but he's hardly untrained. Obviously: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhDBGFEZFGU

[Siu Lum Fighter]

In the interview I read he said that he hadn't trained in any Tang Lang at all. That's why he's doing stuff in the movie that doesn't look like any other Mantis style out there.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

OK, upon further research I've found someone saying that he had some bare amount of training in 7 Star (probably bung bo) and because of this he was ordered by the Communists to create a showy, attractive Praying Mantis form that was to be the standard form for Wu Shu competition. I believe the form you posted was his "White Monkey Steals Peach" which, of course, is different from the 7 Star version.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Here's the non showey version that you can actually kick ass with:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E9uLaMBevg
Here's Brandon Lai doing Bung Bo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1OuZDo-s20
THAT's the real stuff. I really don't understand why the PRC felt everything had to be "showey" when they decided to let people train in wushu again. It was the same case with all of the Shaolin longfist styles. You can see that a lot of the stuff that came out of mainland China during the past 30 years was for show. I find it strange that San Da is widely practiced there in conjunction with wushu but hardly any of the techniques you see in modern wushu forms are any good on the Lei Tai. They can, however, be found in traditional styles like Bei Shaolin and other longfist styles that survived outside of China.

[B.Tunks]

Yu Hai actually had a very strong background in traditional Seven Star Mantis (was a long time student of Lin Jingshan) and definitely has real gongfu, so maybe the translator misinterpreted what he said in that particular interview. You are right though that it was him that came up with that swaying motion and that his version is the source from which all others copied. If you see that motion, you can say with 100% certainty that it is either a modern creation or at least something traditional that has been repackaged for show purposes.

BT

[RenDaHai]

Yu hai is awesome. TO have created what he did he must have known a lot. Here is him in his younger days. (probably already posted but I cant access youtube so i don't know)

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTcyMDU1MTI0.html

Notice its all traditional moves, meerly with exagerated ShenFa (body mechanics). However there is nothing wrong with that, by exagerating the body movements you make it much harder, so when you come to use the real small frame technique your body is fast. This is not just a performance element but it included in almost all styles of Kung Fu. The rocking at the end is full circles and may just represent Gou shou sticking to an opponents hand for example.

AMong mantis masters I have seen the rocking before. Not like in most performances but as small circles of the hooks, no body movement. I assumed it was a guarding action, which is entirely concevable. I could picture ways you could use it as part of ShouFa (hand techniques)

Then again I don't have the mantis experience of Tunks so If he says its not traditional then its probably its not.

SOme example of the circling rocking

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTAwMjE3Mg==.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTAwMDMwNA==.html

Although the insect does indeed have the rocking motion! I have seen it first hand. It is to create parallax. Its eyes are already far apart but by rocking it can actually judge the distance to its opponent much more accurately. It is also thought to have the opposite effect for the opponent, make it harder to judge.

Of course on Macro scale I don't think that would help that much, although moving from momentum is faster than moving from stationary.


I am not aware that traditional shaolin Mantis contains the rocking motion. I have one form, it uses few Mantis hooks, many claws and doesn't have any rocking.

[B.Tunks]

RDH,

Yeah he was/is great a great martial artist but maybe what he created is not so great. Then again, he didn't have much choice and at that time TLQ was conveniently grouped with xiangxing quan so the instruction was to make it look more like the insect, as opposed to it's original intent which was for the spirit of the mantis only to be emulated rather than any actual physical mimicry.

As far as that particular clip, yes Yu Hai could perform it well, but none as well since. Exactly because of the remnants of chuantong tanglang that are in it and his level of skill at authentic QXTL. Out of interest, those parts can be seen at: 23-30 secs, 36-41 secs, 42-56 secs and 59-1.04. Some of those are even a little exaggerated in the view of many TLQ people, but fully within the range of normalcy for Yantai Qixing.

As much as I or anyone complain about it today, Yu Hai probably actually helped to keep traditional TLQ alive in PRC by shining any light on it all. Beyond that, anyone who knows him says that he is a good man and was doing what he could to stay afloat at that time. His own master Lin Jingshan blessed his decision in this respect.

As far as the other 2 clips, well to be honest this guys TLQ shen fa and shou fa is also greatly exaggerated, even though he has a genuine Meihua Tanglang base. He has also combined elements of Taiji and other styles, plus fabricates a lot of his applications - most of which are fairly ridiculous. The circling motion in his TLQ is not related to TL spring power at all (at least Yu Hai was exaggerating something he actually possessed in the first place).

The clip in the OP is also not chuantong tanglang in my opinion. It is largely a fusion of zhaiyao yi lu and beng bu interspersed with the Shaolin version of the Yu Hai embellishments. They are even more obvious here because at least Yu's are extensions of extant movements, whereas these are found nowhere in traditional Mantis Boxing.

Also, the hook hands in TLQ is not the guard. The fists and palms are. The hook hands in tanglang shuang feng shou are the termination of an arm lock and takedown (in most cases) and there is no use for any movement at the conclusion. In fact, it should end in a dead freeze. you are right about the actual insect though. Apparently it also helps in camouflaging the mantis amongst moving foliage.

BT

[RenDaHai]

Cool, Cheers BT good info.

I'll check out the time references of the good moves.

[bawang]

when wushu athletes were ordered to add flashy moves and acrobatics yu hai didnt do it. instead he pieced forms together to make a longer form for performance. he has integrity and i greatly respect him

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here's the non showey version that you can actually kick ass with:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E9uLaMBevg
Here's Brandon Lai doing Bung Bo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1OuZDo-s20
THAT's the real stuff. I really don't understand why the PRC felt everything had to be "showey" when they decided to let people train in wushu again. It was the same case with all of the Shaolin longfist styles. You can see that a lot of the stuff that came out of mainland China during the past 30 years was for show. I find it strange that San Da is widely practiced there in conjunction with wushu but hardly any of the techniques you see in modern wushu forms are any good on the Lei Tai. They can, however, be found in traditional styles like Bei Shaolin and other longfist styles that survived outside of China.

Brendon's stuff was always top notch.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

originally posted by B.Tunks
Also, the hook hands in TLQ is not the guard. The fists and palms are. The hook hands in tanglang shuang feng shou are the termination of an arm lock and takedown (in most cases) and there is no use for any movement at the conclusion. In fact, it should end in a dead freeze. you are right about the actual insect though. Apparently it also helps in camouflaging the mantis amongst moving foliage.
That's exactly what I've been trying to say throughout this entire thread. Thank you for clarifying this so well. Whenever the hook hands are applied they always end in a dead freeze. There's absolutely no reason to do the rocking movement unless it's for a Disney On Ice show or a flashy stage performance.

The reason I'm so outspoken about this is because I was docked points on the judges score cards at the CMAT tournament in '09. I was told by one of the judges in that supposedly traditional event that they needed to see more "looseness" as he mimicked the Yu Hai style rocking motion with the hooks. At that point I was reminded of someone telling me that some of the older wushu forms were considered to be traditional at this tournament. So I guess Yu Hai's embellishment is the standard now!? Don't get me wrong, I always thought those old Jet Li films were entertaining. But it seems as though they've had far too much influence on what's now considered to be real martial arts in mainland China. People just can't see them for the fantasies that they are. Real traditional styles don't have techniques meant for show. In real traditional styles every move is meant for fighting, there's no flourishes or dancing. I always knew Mantis boxing to be one of these styles. I guess times are changing.

[B.Tunks]

Flowery wushu has been an issue since the Ming. Sport wushu doesn't have a monopoly on it. In honesty, all Chinese martial art has a performance/flash element no matter how much it is denied.

[bawang]

all forms are performance. or you would not be doing it in front of a crowd.

[YouKnowWho]

but you don't actually see a "body vibration" like the one when he forms the mantis claw (if that's what you're talking about).

The 1st time I saw that body vibration (at the ending of Bung Bo) was from Brandon Lai. He did it one night on the street of San Francisco just in front of Adam Hsu, Y C Wong after we had dinner in Hung Gar master Y C Wong's house. IMO, the body vibration is just a test for your Shenfa and may not have any combat value in it (same as to stand on single leg after throwing your opponent).

The 螳螂手(Tang Lang Shou) - mantis arm" is quite useful in wrestling. You use your wrist to hook behind your opponet's neck. You use your fore-arm to touch on your opponent's chest. Chinese wrestling only uses one arm. If you use it on both arms, that's exactly the same as the MT clinching.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by B.Tunks
Flowery wushu has been an issue since the Ming. Sport wushu doesn't have a monopoly on it. In honesty, all Chinese martial art has a performance/flash element no matter how much it is denied.
This is true. It's been said that when the Qing conquered China certain rebels went into hiding and joined traveling caravans of Chinese Opera performers. In this way they managed to make money and travel throughout the land, openly performing their styles with exaggerated and flowery movements in order to disguise their lethal skills from the authorities (of course, some would tell you that styles like Kanjiaquan managed to survive completely unscathed through all of this but that's another debate). It was because of these circumstances that certain techniques within many Northern Changquan styles retained this flavor. I believe it's been argued that my own style of Bei Shaolin has some of these performance elements. Although I really feel this could only be the case with a certain few of the movements like the ones that are done in a standing position with both feet together (a stance that is common to many styles including Tang Lang). Even though I wouldn't if I could help it, I actually still feel like I could effectively kick ass with these techniques even if I were standing that way.

Modern wushu seems to be a phenomena that's been shaped and formed by different yet similar restrictions. Practitioners no longer had to practice in small hidden rooms or courtyards, but the emphasis on lethality and effectiveness in real combat was strongly discouraged. Of course, this was partly because the state didn't want people learning lethal fighting techniques from their own personal teachers (many of whom might be critical of the government). Hence, the grand gymnastic routines that we usually associate with modern wushu. I'm not saying that the flowery aspect isn't still there in many pre-1960's styles, it's just not as big and expansive. In a wushu set you might run ten or fifteen feet, do an aerial cartwheel, and then explode with a flurry of blocks, punches, and kicks rather than just a "phoenix circles it's nest" movement, or "hero stands on one leg" stance.

[bawang]

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