Why is there not a single WC fighter, anywhere!!!!!!!!!

[mvbrown21]

Hey guys,

I won't lie, I'm getting a little bummed here. I love WC and I know I'll never stop studying it but my outlook is really starting to change on the endgame of what WC can really do. Aside from the MT fights back in Ip Man's day where WC won a few rounds, why is there not a single piece of footage anywhere of WC dominating in a true fight, whether it be competition or street????

On a personal level I'm confident that I can handle my own against the 'average' opponent. I've used it a few times in a few situations but I used the timing I've learned, more than anything in those fights, with balance and a straight punch. Borderline WC at the end of the day. But who's to say that something like boxing couldn't teach timing even more efficiently? Boxer's have d#mn good timing!

It seems that WC and all this theory, that in a lot of respects guys just make up everyday, is just a gentlemen's club for WC only. I've seen and felt good WC dominate other WC but have never, as much as I incessantly look for it, seen a single example of a WC guy doing anything to an actual worthy opponent. There's something inherently wrong there.

WC against an average joe, hands down, you can kick some a$$. But WC against another trained fighter, never seen, ever!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing WC, I love it, but I'm also trying to be realistic in it's effectiveness. No offense to anyone anywhere but the few sparring clips that are even available are laughable to say the least. Two, they're not really fighting and three, even if the WC guy gets an upper hand, it's usually because the opponent is not very good himself.

Some guys will say, "well, competition has rules" or "WC attacks are too deadly" or "the true WC fighters don't boast themselves" or "all you gotta do is rush him when he kicks or do this or that when he punches". Screw all of that!!! There is NOTHING!!! Anywhere!! Video and photos have been available since long before WC was even exposed to the world and there is absolutely nothing!!! I don't know about anyone else here but that really bothers me.

I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too. And that just sucks. I'm tired of demo's, I'm tired of theory, I'm tired of only Chi Sau. I want to see 'proof' that WC can hold it's own in the fighting world!!!

Check out this video of K1 knockouts. Almost every single attack I see in here would break right through a WC guys "structure" and he would get knocked the **** out just like everyone else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrC8XfrL18


Anyone else here feel the same way?


_

[Lee Chiang Po]

Hey guys,

I won't lie, I'm getting a little bummed here. I love WC and I know I'll never stop studying it but my outlook is really starting to change on the endgame of what WC can really do. Aside from the MT fights back in Ip Man's day where WC won a few rounds, why is there not a single piece of footage anywhere of WC dominating in a true fight, whether it be competition or street????

On a personal level I'm confident that I can handle my own against the 'average' opponent. I've used it a few times in a few situations but I used the timing I've learned, more than anything in those fights, with balance and a straight punch. Borderline WC at the end of the day. But who's to say that something like boxing couldn't teach timing even more efficiently? Boxer's have d#mn good timing!

It seems that WC and all this theory, that in a lot of respects guys just make up everyday, is just a gentlemen's club for WC only. I've seen and felt good WC dominate other WC but have never, as much as I incessantly look for it, seen a single example of a WC guy doing anything to an actual worthy opponent. There's something inherently wrong there.

WC against an average joe, hands down, you can kick some a$$. But WC against another trained fighter, never seen, ever!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing WC, I love it, but I'm also trying to be realistic in it's effectiveness. No offense to anyone anywhere but the few sparring clips that are even available are laughable to say the least. Two, they're not really fighting and three, even if the WC guy gets an upper hand, it's usually because the opponent is not very good himself.

Some guys will say, "well, competition has rules" or "WC attacks are too deadly" or "the true WC fighters don't boast themselves" or "all you gotta do is rush him when he kicks or do this or that when he punches". Screw all of that!!! There is NOTHING!!! Anywhere!! Video and photos have been available since long before WC was even exposed to the world and there is absolutely nothing!!! I don't know about anyone else here but that really bothers me.

I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too. And that just sucks. I'm tired of demo's, I'm tired of theory, I'm tired of only Chi Sau. I want to see 'proof' that WC can hold it's own in the fighting world!!!

Check out this video of K1 knockouts. Almost every single attack I see in here would break right through a WC guys "structure" and he would get knocked the **** out just like everyone else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrC8XfrL18


Anyone else here feel the same way?


_

Think about what you are saying here. Why Wing Chun. Tell me how many Mantis people do you see fighting effectively in the ring, or just on video? How about other gung fu? How many of them are out there wining fights on video? The only thing you see is street fighting and MMA, and MMA was started strictly for that purpose. How about boxers? How about all the other forms of martial art? I see them billed all the time as Bjj specialists and Karate specialists and boxers, but never see much different from what everyone else does. So why pick on WC? In my entire lifetime, due to the type of work I did, I had something like maybe 200 fights, or was involved in that many different altercations, and not once was it caught on tape. Video did not exist like it is today, and one would have to take video tape. No one ran around with a movie camera. And if I had caught them taping me I would have taken the camera or broken it, because it might lead to my being sued or worse.
The only people I know of that run around taking video of fights are the MMA types anyway. Besides, in all my years I have not met another WC person on the street or anywhere for that matter. So if I had a camera and carried it with me everywhere, I would still not have footage of WC being fought. I think way too much weight is given to this video thing. You are a WC fighter, so find out for yourself if it works.

[Buddha_Fist]

Touché Matt!

You have only so much time to train... So you must invest it wisely if you want the best achievable results in the boxing method you have chosen. There is no time for Fantasy-Fu: Endless Chi-Sao games with no real translation to sparring/fighting, theory on top of theory, assumption over assumption...

I think that Ving Tsun can be a great boxing method if you focus on the essential: Does what I do work in the chaos of a fight? How well does it translate into fighting? Am I doing frequent reality checks? Is the method efficient? Is my training being efficient? What habits am I training? Am I actually spending all of my training time on achieving the tools necessary in a fight (punching power, mobility, speedy yet balanced footwork, timing, distance control, etc.)?

There are nowadays too many Ving Tsun Trekkies out there. Gotta work hard not to be one...

[GlennR]

Hey guys,

I won't lie, I'm getting a little bummed here. I love WC and I know I'll never stop studying it but my outlook is really starting to change on the endgame of what WC can really do. Aside from the MT fights back in Ip Man's day where WC won a few rounds, why is there not a single piece of footage anywhere of WC dominating in a true fight, whether it be competition or street????

On a personal level I'm confident that I can handle my own against the 'average' opponent. I've used it a few times in a few situations but I used the timing I've learned, more than anything in those fights, with balance and a straight punch. Borderline WC at the end of the day. But who's to say that something like boxing couldn't teach timing even more efficiently? Boxer's have d#mn good timing!

It seems that WC and all this theory, that in a lot of respects guys just make up everyday, is just a gentlemen's club for WC only. I've seen and felt good WC dominate other WC but have never, as much as I incessantly look for it, seen a single example of a WC guy doing anything to an actual worthy opponent. There's something inherently wrong there.

WC against an average joe, hands down, you can kick some a$$. But WC against another trained fighter, never seen, ever!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing WC, I love it, but I'm also trying to be realistic in it's effectiveness. No offense to anyone anywhere but the few sparring clips that are even available are laughable to say the least. Two, they're not really fighting and three, even if the WC guy gets an upper hand, it's usually because the opponent is not very good himself.

Some guys will say, "well, competition has rules" or "WC attacks are too deadly" or "the true WC fighters don't boast themselves" or "all you gotta do is rush him when he kicks or do this or that when he punches". Screw all of that!!! There is NOTHING!!! Anywhere!! Video and photos have been available since long before WC was even exposed to the world and there is absolutely nothing!!! I don't know about anyone else here but that really bothers me.

I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too. And that just sucks. I'm tired of demo's, I'm tired of theory, I'm tired of only Chi Sau. I want to see 'proof' that WC can hold it's own in the fighting world!!!

Check out this video of K1 knockouts. Almost every single attack I see in here would break right through a WC guys "structure" and he would get knocked the **** out just like everyone else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrC8XfrL18


Anyone else here feel the same way?


_

Post of the year in my opinion
Refreshingly honest and hard to (if not impossible) to argue against

I think youve hit it on the head with this line.....
"I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too."

Youre right... its a self defense system to protect you in a street situation.
And thats where it ends in my opinion
Ive done WC for 21 years now (not so much the last 5) and now i Box/MT..... quite simply they are better systems if you want to reach a high level of fighting.
I wont speak for the other combat styles (BJJ, wrestling etc) ,as i dont do them, but i would think the same in regards to those.

As you state, the evidence is there to support these styles, but theres none for WC.
Dont get me wrong, i love WC but im realistic in what i expect out of it.

Once again, great post
GlennR

[Vernon]

Hello, newbie perspective here...

I've recently started training in JKD. I have a real interest and respect for Wing Chun and it's some of the most enjoyable parts of my workouts. However, I see WC as a very valuable part of a bigger system of fighting (JKD or whatever one wants to call it) rather than the complete system itself. There are vital skills, concepts, and tools (e.g. pak sao, forward pressure, economy of motion) that one can use from WC during a real fight and/or full contact event; so looking for instances of people successfully using elements of WC during a fight seems more logical to me than looking for folks using exclusively WC during a fight.

One of the most profound posts I've read here recently was when Phil Redmond stated something to the effect of him being a Martial Artist who specializes in Wing Chun rather than being strictly a WC man. I really like this philosophy.

Just because one doesn't see a plethora of videos on YouTube of fighters effectively using nothing but Wing Chun during full contact fights doesn't equate, in my mind anyways, to WC lacking practicality in today's world. It simply speaks to the wisdom of using some of the tools of WC, which have withstood the test of time, as one means to an end rather than the only means to an end.

[Vajramusti]

Think about what you are saying here. Why Wing Chun. Tell me how many Mantis people do you see fighting effectively in the ring, or just on video? How about other gung fu? How many of them are out there wining fights on video? The only thing you see is street fighting and MMA, and MMA was started strictly for that purpose. How about boxers? How about all the other forms of martial art? I see them billed all the time as Bjj specialists and Karate specialists and boxers, but never see much different from what everyone else does. So why pick on WC? In my entire lifetime, due to the type of work I did, I had something like maybe 200 fights, or was involved in that many different altercations, and not once was it caught on tape. Video did not exist like it is today, and one would have to take video tape. No one ran around with a movie camera. And if I had caught them taping me I would have taken the camera or broken it, because it might lead to my being sued or worse.
The only people I know of that run around taking video of fights are the MMA types anyway. Besides, in all my years I have not met another WC person on the street or anywhere for that matter. So if I had a camera and carried it with me everywhere, I would still not have footage of WC being fought. I think way too much weight is given to this video thing. You are a WC fighter, so find out for yourself if it works.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good statement Lee.

joy

[Buddha_Fist]

Think about what you are saying here. Why Wing Chun. Tell me how many Mantis people do you see fighting effectively in the ring, or just on video? How about other gung fu? How many of them are out there wining fights on video? The only thing you see is street fighting and MMA, and MMA was started strictly for that purpose. How about boxers? How about all the other forms of martial art? I see them billed all the time as Bjj specialists and Karate specialists and boxers, but never see much different from what everyone else does. So why pick on WC? In my entire lifetime, due to the type of work I did, I had something like maybe 200 fights, or was involved in that many different altercations, and not once was it caught on tape. Video did not exist like it is today, and one would have to take video tape. No one ran around with a movie camera. And if I had caught them taping me I would have taken the camera or broken it, because it might lead to my being sued or worse.
The only people I know of that run around taking video of fights are the MMA types anyway. Besides, in all my years I have not met another WC person on the street or anywhere for that matter. So if I had a camera and carried it with me everywhere, I would still not have footage of WC being fought. I think way too much weight is given to this video thing. You are a WC fighter, so find out for yourself if it works.

It's not just specifically Ving Tsun, but rather all the schools that lost touch with the realities of confrontation. It's the schools that instead of spending a good amount of each training sessions on the heavy bag and sparring, get off at the "awesomeness" of useless Chi-Sao tricks, that like to dress in silky pajamas and organize "demo teams", that spend half of the training session talking about the importance of Chi instead of working on the precision of their punch, that claim useless authenticity without ever producing people capable to match up with an average Joe boxer, that by letting their students live in that fantasy world are straight-out lying to them and putting their lives in jeopardy by providing a false sense of security and skill, and that simply do not live up to the promise they are doing by advertising themselves as a "martial art".

MMA is the best thing that happened to martial arts in the last decade. It exposed the non-sense that was going on in many schools and served as a wake-up call. You will see in MMA many representatives of the methods that are known for being contact oriented (Muay Thai, boxing, some Karate, etc.) as they have continued being in touch with the realities of fighting and have continued to hone real skills. You only see a few representatives of other methods as the majority of them are simply not at the same level. One thing is to be top-dog in your own school or compared to the average non-trained Joe, but the current state of MMA and its successful competitors is a whooooole 'nother level, they are simply put "professionals". You won't have an idea of this unless you actually spend time sparring with somebody at that level.

Why dismiss video as evidence? Go back to the stone age? It's fine and dandy to have had "200 fights", but what level of opponents was this with? We are still largely living in the Fantasy-Fu era of unsupported claims. A healthy dose of skepticism and common sense puts an end to this. Don't take this wrong, I am not picking on you, but rather on the prevalent blind faith and parrot-like repeating of what sacrosanct Sifus tell their students...

[anerlich]

My WC instructor had 37 pro kickboxing fights and over 100 amateur fights. He also won a "world invitational" KF championship in HK in 1982. This was a bit before video became mainstream.

His students have recently succeeded in MMA, continuous sparring, and BJJ competitions. There are vids, but they don't get posted on Youtube for keyboard warriors to snipe over. That is why most don't post their stuff.

Real fighting with WC doesn't closely resemble what you practice in the forms or what was shown in Ip Man 1 & 2.

Look for videos of Alan Orr's students, both in older posts on this forum and on the 'tube, you'll see some WC fighters succeeding in the ring. They may not look like how you expect WC fighters to look, though.

[mvbrown21]

Think about what you are saying here. Why Wing Chun. Tell me how many Mantis people do you see fighting effectively in the ring, or just on video? How about other gung fu? How many of them are out there wining fights on video? The only thing you see is street fighting and MMA, and MMA was started strictly for that purpose. How about boxers? How about all the other forms of martial art? I see them billed all the time as Bjj specialists and Karate specialists and boxers, but never see much different from what everyone else does. So why pick on WC? In my entire lifetime, due to the type of work I did, I had something like maybe 200 fights, or was involved in that many different altercations, and not once was it caught on tape. Video did not exist like it is today, and one would have to take video tape. No one ran around with a movie camera. And if I had caught them taping me I would have taken the camera or broken it, because it might lead to my being sued or worse.
The only people I know of that run around taking video of fights are the MMA types anyway. Besides, in all my years I have not met another WC person on the street or anywhere for that matter. So if I had a camera and carried it with me everywhere, I would still not have footage of WC being fought. I think way too much weight is given to this video thing. You are a WC fighter, so find out for yourself if it works.

I understand what you're saying and I actually thought about that. A few things though. Wing Chun is the most popular form of 'practiced' gung fu in the world. It's not a small sect like some of the other styles you mentioned. There are more than enough guys that there 'should' be something by now. There are a few who have tried too, but failed miserably.

A few things for thought. I don't know about you but I've never met any MMA guys walking around on the street either. In fact, the only one's you'll run into regularly are boxers. Also, out of your 200 or so altercations, how many of them were actually trained, experienced fighters?

I don't deny WC effectiveness against the 'average' opponent. I said that in my original post. I think it's great for basic self-defense, used it in a few fights, and I enjoy practicing it immensely. So I'm not bashing WC. I questioning WC's ability against trained, experienced fighters. Is it against WC philosophy to compete? Why have the few who have competed essentially thrown their WC out the window the second that first punch came? If muay thai, etc. fight the way they train, why don't WC guys fight the way they train when against a skilled opponent?

This whole idea that WC is the most economical way to move the human body in a fight becomes absurd when faced against a worthy opponent who just fights naturally. These are serious issues that one must consider, because you might have taken on 200 guys, but that 201st just might be the one who actually knows how to fight.


To Vernon and anerlich

I understand that core concepts might be all one see's from WC when applied. But you know that those core concepts are exhibited by almost every single other combat art too! In fact the only core concept that might be different is the pak sao and the 'attempt' to disrupt the other guys defense. I won't lie, it will freak someone out, but a skilled fighter will learn your game quick. I don't know if any of the guys on this forum know this but both a 'distance fighter' and a 'grappler' want you to try to close the gap, so that they don't have to, and then they try to break your timing, and if their timing is good, you're screwed.

Simple fact, MT looks like MT when they fight, Boxing looks like Boxing, BJJ looks like BJJ, Karate, for the most part(and depends on type), looks like Karate and on and on it goes. Why the h$ll do WC guys not compete against skilled opponents and why on earth does it not look even remotely close when the few that have do? It looks like more of a conglomerate of all of the above! That doesn't make you think about a few things, at all?

And Vernon, glad to hear you found a JKD school. That's what I wanted back when I first started martial arts. I love Wing Chun, I really do but just like your founder, Bruce Lee, said, believed, and tested "The Highest Art is No Art, The Highest Form is No Form" I always understood the concept of that quote but I think I'm only really starting to understand what it truly means now, 10 years later.

_______________________________


This whole idea that I've spouted forth in this thread literally was, I went to sleep one night, woke up the next day, and said WTF. I was reading theory after theory, dispute after dispute in this forum, and I honestly just got tired of these declarations of authenticity or these disputes over how to properly perform a certain move/drill. What hit me smack in the head was that all this talk/theory was useless to what really mattered.

I didn't learn WC to learn an art like some here have, and that's perfectly fine, I learned WC to learn how to fight. My Sifu gave me no illusions of WC. There's not even talk of theory in our classes. He simply presented that this is what I have to offer, this is what I know how to teach. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. I blame the current WC culture for the illusions, but more importantly, I blame myself. This isn't 1960's Hong Kong anymore, I respect Wing Chun Gung Fu for what it is and I will probably train in it my whole life, but my mindset has changed and my awareness has awoken to 2011. So why don't we all wake up and stop being irresponsible with the false security we are giving not only ourselves, but our fellow Wing Chun practitioners

[lance]

Hey guys,

I won't lie, I'm getting a little bummed here. I love WC and I know I'll never stop studying it but my outlook is really starting to change on the endgame of what WC can really do. Aside from the MT fights back in Ip Man's day where WC won a few rounds, why is there not a single piece of footage anywhere of WC dominating in a true fight, whether it be competition or street????

On a personal level I'm confident that I can handle my own against the 'average' opponent. I've used it a few times in a few situations but I used the timing I've learned, more than anything in those fights, with balance and a straight punch. Borderline WC at the end of the day. But who's to say that something like boxing couldn't teach timing even more efficiently? Boxer's have d#mn good timing!

It seems that WC and all this theory, that in a lot of respects guys just make up everyday, is just a gentlemen's club for WC only. I've seen and felt good WC dominate other WC but have never, as much as I incessantly look for it, seen a single example of a WC guy doing anything to an actual worthy opponent. There's something inherently wrong there.

WC against an average joe, hands down, you can kick some a$$. But WC against another trained fighter, never seen, ever!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing WC, I love it, but I'm also trying to be realistic in it's effectiveness. No offense to anyone anywhere but the few sparring clips that are even available are laughable to say the least. Two, they're not really fighting and three, even if the WC guy gets an upper hand, it's usually because the opponent is not very good himself.

Some guys will say, "well, competition has rules" or "WC attacks are too deadly" or "the true WC fighters don't boast themselves" or "all you gotta do is rush him when he kicks or do this or that when he punches". Screw all of that!!! There is NOTHING!!! Anywhere!! Video and photos have been available since long before WC was even exposed to the world and there is absolutely nothing!!! I don't know about anyone else here but that really bothers me.

I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too. And that just sucks. I'm tired of demo's, I'm tired of theory, I'm tired of only Chi Sau. I want to see 'proof' that WC can hold it's own in the fighting world!!!

Check out this video of K1 knockouts. Almost every single attack I see in here would break right through a WC guys "structure" and he would get knocked the **** out just like everyone else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrC8XfrL18


Anyone else here feel the same way?


_

Mybrown , who is your WC teacher anyway ? You know kung fu alone has their own philosophies too . Why get into a fight when there ' s no need to prove yourself ? So far you were able to handle yourself using WC skills right ? Just keep on practicing , because one day you may face the the most toughest person on earth . This person can come in any walks of life , believe it or not . The chinese have a saying you may think that building is the tallest , but there is always a much taller building than the one you just seen .

In other words , just practice to improve yourself , no need to fight , talk yourself out of fighting , instead , because you know why , when the going gets tough , the tough gets going . When the person just wants to provoke you , just slam him . Because now that you know that you can handle yourself pretty good . You alone can seriuosly hurt people . too .
I practice WC too , but I don ' t think I should put it down or let it die , by stop practicing it . The main reason why some of the fights they had , where WC people gets beaten down is because , the WC people fighting are not good enough yet , that ' s why . Go and criticize WC infront of GM William Cheung he'll show you something .

Did you see the video clip of Capoiera Vs Wing Chun ? The wing chun man won against capoiera . And maybe there is wing chun fighters around , but maybe they rather practice for self fense , instead of using it for fighting . Because when you know you can kick ass , the next thing you know is you might end up hurting the person seriously or even worse killing the person .

Maybe you should be the next K- 1 fighter representing wing chun , it ' ll be good for you , this way you can encourage other people to , to do what you ' re doing .
But your sifu may not be proud though .

[mvbrown21]

Did you see the video clip of Capoiera Vs Wing Chun ? The wing chun man won against capoiera . And maybe there is wing chun fighters around , but maybe they rather practice for self fense , instead of using it for fighting . Because when you know you can kick ass , the next thing you know is you might end up hurting the person seriously or even worse killing the person .



That video clip is from a movie. Someone on the set recorded it on their own camera. It's not real.

I'm not dissing Wing Chun, I love Wing Chun. I'm just sharing a revelation I've had, so to speak, and at least momentarily, it's a little depressing but liberating at the same time.

[GlennR]

That video clip is from a movie. Someone on the set recorded it on their own camera. It's not real.

I'm not dissing Wing Chun, I love Wing Chun. I'm just sharing a revelation I've had, so to speak, and at least momentarily, it's a little depressing but liberating at the same time.


Ultimately Matt, you have to make your own decision and i dont think you can get resolution from this issue but venting on a Internet Forum

Do yourself a favour, drop into a boxing/mt/bjj gym and do a couple of sessions and watch how they train.... especiallly the more serious among them.

Id love to hear you thoughts if you did
GlennR

[jesper]

First off, there are plenty of WC fighters around. Just because they dont go showing off on youtube doesnt mean they dont exist.

Second Who cares. If there where 10 champion fighters would that make YOU any better. Honestly you sound like the keyboard warriors on youtube who think they are tough because they see a clip of a good pro fighter and train the same style.

If you want to know if your WC works against other trained fighter, go fight them.
If it works examine why. If it doesnt work then find out why.

That way you will start to use what works for YOU and discard the rest

[Phil Redmond]

Hey guys,

I won't lie, I'm getting a little bummed here. I love WC and I know I'll never stop studying it but my outlook is really starting to change on the endgame of what WC can really do. Aside from the MT fights back in Ip Man's day where WC won a few rounds, why is there not a single piece of footage anywhere of WC dominating in a true fight, whether it be competition or street????

On a personal level I'm confident that I can handle my own against the 'average' opponent. I've used it a few times in a few situations but I used the timing I've learned, more than anything in those fights, with balance and a straight punch. Borderline WC at the end of the day. But who's to say that something like boxing couldn't teach timing even more efficiently? Boxer's have d#mn good timing!

It seems that WC and all this theory, that in a lot of respects guys just make up everyday, is just a gentlemen's club for WC only. I've seen and felt good WC dominate other WC but have never, as much as I incessantly look for it, seen a single example of a WC guy doing anything to an actual worthy opponent. There's something inherently wrong there.

WC against an average joe, hands down, you can kick some a$$. But WC against another trained fighter, never seen, ever!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing WC, I love it, but I'm also trying to be realistic in it's effectiveness. No offense to anyone anywhere but the few sparring clips that are even available are laughable to say the least. Two, they're not really fighting and three, even if the WC guy gets an upper hand, it's usually because the opponent is not very good himself.

Some guys will say, "well, competition has rules" or "WC attacks are too deadly" or "the true WC fighters don't boast themselves" or "all you gotta do is rush him when he kicks or do this or that when he punches". Screw all of that!!! There is NOTHING!!! Anywhere!! Video and photos have been available since long before WC was even exposed to the world and there is absolutely nothing!!! I don't know about anyone else here but that really bothers me.

I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too. And that just sucks. I'm tired of demo's, I'm tired of theory, I'm tired of only Chi Sau. I want to see 'proof' that WC can hold it's own in the fighting world!!!

Check out this video of K1 knockouts. Almost every single attack I see in here would break right through a WC guys "structure" and he would get knocked the **** out just like everyone else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrC8XfrL18


Anyone else here feel the same way?


_

Well, I fought and won full contact matches when not everyone had a camera like now.
So I know that WC can work. There are some fight clips on my website and my two youtube channels. Then there is Shawn Obasi.

[SavvySavage]

WC as a flavoring can work. Like sweet and sour sauce it can do good things for a meal...but sweat and sour sauce alone won't give you the nutrition you need.

If wc were trained for combat it would have to be more vigorous and would probably look similar to mt. Then the question comes up, "If I am now training mt why do I need to do the traditional WC stuff?". Maybe you don't need to do bong sau/punch against a thousand single wimpy or even strong committed punches. I think this to be true.

I think WC peeps get hung up on making it look like WC I stead of training wc's core attributes to be used in a fight. Chi Sao is a fun and safe exercise that allows you to hit, get hit, and feel your oats in general. The emphasis is on safety: Safety in training and safety of ego. It's really easy to be dominant in chi Sao especially if you're stronger and taller. But even if you aren't a giant chi Sao training plateaus eventually leaving you shoving. If WC stopped chi Sao all together it would benefit WC training because then people would practice from a distance instead of from the arm touching range/. They'd have to actually use footwork, timing, and finally sensitivity once contact is made.

WC as attached fighting is a strange concept to me. Wrestling is the ultimate attached fighting so why not just study wrestling? The more metamorphasis WC goes under the more it is looking like mma. What does that tell you? That many WC people are evolving and don't need or want the so called traditional training methods anymore.

[Sardinkahnikov]

Man you need to practice against other people and try to make your WC techniques work. You'll only achieve being depressed if you wait for the internet to provide you with the psychological confort you seek.

One thing worth considering is that its common for people to study many different styles. My teacher, for example, knew WC and a longfist style.


In my experience: Wing Chun can be hard to use because it's meat-and-potatoes consist mostly of short distance techniques. Therefore, in order to fight against a trained opponent, you must learn how to move in effectively. I've heard about many ways to do so - following through after your opponent commits and stepping in with a kick a la Royce Gracie are the most commonly reffered to. The latter enables you to take initiative, so it's easier to pull off.

[WCFighter]

There are lots of skilled Wing Chun people out there.

We just don't feel the need to get on TV and risk our health to win a shiny belt and some money.

It only takes one punch to cause brain hemorraging, or damage your retina, or
break your trachea. To me and a lot of other people.. we don't need to get on TV to prove that wing chun is amazing. Some of us would rather make better use of our time : train hard, realistically, and safely, and pass on (teach) this system to others over many years.. because it is a worthy system to learn.

So it would seem (by the lack of awesome kung fu people in the UFC) that there are no good kung fu people out there. Well, that would be a wrong assumption. Most kung fu masters don't feel the need to prove themselves on TV for a shiny belt and some money. Most people in the UFC get involved because of the money; with their health hanging in the balance.

Back to wing chun:
Sometimes the only way you'll believe that wing chun is good, is to get overwhelmed by a wing chun person in a fight. And unless you've experienced this, you won't believe it is true. (This is true for all kung fu styles out there)

I've trained in Karate in the past. And it is a great system. Then I learned white crane for a while, and thought that it was great too, and then I found wing chun and
that was it for me. I finally came across a system that helped me protect my head and body with consistent results, as well as helped me launch some wicked attacks.

I've met a lot of masters in wing chun (in the GM William Cheung lineage), and I must
say that I am very happy and proud to be learning this style (regardless of lineage).

There's nothing that a boxer, muy thai, karate, jdk, tae kwon do , or stand-up-fighting stylist could show me to make me want leave wing chun. Period.
They are all great systems, BUT I prefer the wing chun system I am in.

I wouldn't mind learning some groundfighting techniques from a BJJ/Judo sensei or learning some stick/knife techniques from a Kali guro; since these are cool systems too.

Your faith in wing chun will depend on the quality of teachers you have met; and the amount of time spent with these teachers.

If you weren't impressed after one year of training, then find some other style where the instructors impress you.

Ultimately, you will need to have faith in your chosen system AND in yourself to make the system work for you.

My 2 cents.

[SavvySavage]

There are lots of skilled Wing Chun people out there.

We just don't feel the need to get on TV and risk our health to win a shiny belt and some money.

It only takes one punch to cause brain hemorraging, or damage your retina, or
break your trachea. To me and a lot of other people.. we don't need to get on TV to prove that wing chun is amazing. Some of us would rather make better use of our time : train hard, realistically, and safely, and pass on (teach) this system to others over many years.. because it is a worthy system to learn.

So it would seem (by the lack of awesome kung fu people in the UFC) that there are no good kung fu people out there. Well, that would be a wrong assumption. Most kung fu masters don't feel the need to prove themselves on TV for a shiny belt and some money. Most people in the UFC get involved because of the money; with their health hanging in the balance.

Back to wing chun:
Sometimes the only way you'll believe that wing chun is good, is to get overwhelmed by a wing chun person in a fight. And unless you've experienced this, you won't believe it is true. (This is true for all kung fu styles out there)

I've trained in Karate in the past. And it is a great system. Then I learned white crane for a while, and thought that it was great too, and then I found wing chun and
that was it for me. I finally came across a system that helped me protect my head and body with consistent results, as well as helped me launch some wicked attacks.

I've met a lot of masters in wing chun (in the GM William Cheung lineage), and I must
say that I am very happy and proud to be learning this style (regardless of lineage).

There's nothing that a boxer, muy thai, karate, jdk, tae kwon do , or stand-up-fighting stylist could show me to make me want leave wing chun. Period.
They are all great systems, BUT I prefer the wing chun system I am in.

I wouldn't mind learning some groundfighting techniques from a BJJ/Judo sensei or learning some stick/knife techniques from a Kali guro; since these are cool systems too.

Your faith in wing chun will depend on the quality of teachers you have met; and the amount of time spent with these teachers.

If you weren't impressed after one year of training, then find some other style where the instructors impress you.

Ultimately, you will need to have faith in your chosen system AND in yourself to make the system work for you.

My 2 cents.

This argument is overused and falls completely flat. Everyone says they didn't have cameras back in the day during their fights. Than they talk about the current fighting their students do. Then they put up clips of chi Sao or drilling only. Cameras are readily available today and if you wanted to film sparring you would. Maybe many are waiting for the sparring to look good so it does t get made fun of by Internet snipers. Maybe people are afraid to admit that fighting looks like fighting and WC training doesn't resemble fighting.


This argument goes for many traditional styles and not just WC.

[TenTigers]

Maybe people are afraid to admit that fighting looks like fighting and WC training doesn't resemble fighting.

then you need to see more WCK schools. I suggest you check out Alan Lee's WCK, he has a satellite school right here in Huntington. I think they meet on Tues and Thurs nights.

[Grumblegeezer]

I have a little different take on why you don't see WC/VT/WT used in competitive fights. You don't see knives used either... or clubs. You do see two reasonably well matched athletes dueling it out with rules designed for a "fair fight". Under those circumstances, MMA techniques and training are your best choice. Period.

Now I'm a pretty average guy, and I'm going to be 56 in two months. I work hard to stay in condition... but there's no way I could ever stand up to the rigors of fighting in a ring or cage. Nor would I want to. On the other hand WC (NVTO) works well for me. I enjoy the training, both the practical side, and the fun, "theoretical" chi-sau stuff. And there's lots of stuff I can use, following the motto of using "Old age and treachery to defeat speed and youth". That means not going face-to-face and mano-a-mano against some superbly trained brute. If I ever had to defend myself against a highly skilled and conditioned young fighter, I would use every and any "treacherous" approach possibe, knowing that it isn't a "fair fight". In a fair fight I would lose. So the WC and Eskrima I train are designed for an unfair fight, physically and psychologically.

Here's what I'm talkin' about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWTNBRs7Ccs

BTW, one reason why you won't find any actual videos of this approach is because it would be evidence against whoever does fight like that. Most people don't like the idea of spending a long term behind bars much better than being savagely beaten. Think about it.

So to your point: if you want to compete and you have the requisite physical gifts, great. Train boxing, MT, BJJ, get into great shape and spar a lot. If you are an older guy, and not a natural athlete, there are smarter ways to live your life and still learn how to "take care of yourself". For some of us, WC fits this bill. Cheers.

[Sardinkahnikov]

I have a little different take on why you don't see WC/VT/WT used in competitive fights. You don't see knives used either... or clubs. You do see two reasonably well matched athletes dueling it out with rules designed for a "fair fight". Under those circumstances, MMA techniques and training are your best choice. Period.

Now I'm a pretty average guy, and I'm going to be 56 in two months. I work hard to stay in condition... but there's no way I could ever stand up to the rigors of fighting in a ring or cage. Nor would I want to. On the other hand WC (NVTO) works well for me. I enjoy the training, both the practical side, and the fun, "theoretical" chi-sau stuff. And there's lots of stuff I can use, following the motto of using "Old age and treachery to defeat speed and youth". That means not going face-to-face and mano-a-mano against some superbly trained brute. If I ever had to defend myself against a highly skilled and conditioned young fighter, I would use every and any "treacherous" approach possibe, knowing that it isn't a "fair fight". In a fair fight I would lose. So the WC and Eskrima I train are designed for an unfair fight, physically and psychologically.

Here's what I'm talkin' about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWTNBRs7Ccs

BTW, one reason why you won't find any actual videos of this approach is because it would be evidence against whoever does fight like that. Most people don't like the idea of spending a long term behind bars much better than being savagely beaten. Think about it.

So to your point: if you want to compete and you have the requisite physical gifts, great. Train boxing, MT, BJJ, get into great shape and spar a lot. If you are an older guy, and not a natural athlete, there are smarter ways to live your life and still learn how to "take care of yourself". For some of us, WC fits this bill. Cheers.

But there is no reason why you can't apply the same "sneaky" mentality to any other MA.

The real question, IMO, is why should we use WC techniques over other techniques in certain situations. Besides, being able to aply your stuff in a fair match should be, I think, the most basic level of any MA training. Everything will become easier after that.

[mvbrown21]

Some of you understood me, some of you didn't understand, some of you misquoted me, and some of you took it as a threat....

Look, first thing's first, this has nothing to do with my teacher or lineage. IMHO I think I have some of the purest WC teaching available. The HKM/Augustine Fong line. I've been practicing WC for over 10 years now and have obtained a fairly good skill level within the system.

Once again, I'm not bashing WC. I think it's great and is a very effective self-defense system. I just, to some degree, have come to the realization that it pretty much stops there. I no longer believe it to be the 'end all, be all' that so many in the WC community believe it to be. I view it now more as a supplemental system more than a primary system.

At one point in time I thought it was more a 'combat art' but I now believe it to be more a 'concept art'. It's not that I haven't tested it out myself because I have. Many times in both a real environment and also a sparring environment. You can fight dirty all day long and win, and WC is very good at having dirty technique. But that about amounts to someone's in your face, they push you or something of the like, and you attack easily obliterating them. In a lot of ways it's no different from a sucker punch, and at least to this WC practitioner, that doesn't amount to quality of skill. Anyone could use that aggressive concept and win with any technique, WC or not.

Now when it comes to an opponent who's not that stupid and has a fair amount of skill themselves, things drastically change in regards to WC. I know some WC guys here do practice sparring. That's great. But the technique that everyone here learned, the 3 forms, the dummy, the weapons forms, Chi Sao, etc., essentially the technique itself, are simply not there when facing off against a worthy opponent. It goes right out the window and they become more 'natural' fighters. Now they can call it WC and say that that's their basis for what they're doing. That's fine, but that just proves that the WC system itself is just 'concept' based then. These guys have evolved their technique outside of the original system and I don't know about you, but that tells me something.

Now you'll either understand what I'm trying to express here or you won't. That's fine. But just remember that whether you're a teacher or a student, you are being irresponsible with your safety or your students safety if you are lead to believe that the WC system alone will protect you.

Let me state this once again, I love Wing Chun, I will continue to study it probably my whole life. I've just realized that, unlike the type of "fantasy-fu" that is talked about within this forum about the different lineages, the "fantasy-fu" that the WC community 'as a whole' promotes will no longer have it's grip on me. I know what WC can do and I know what WC cannot do. And if I ever want to grow as a martial artist, that's the first step.

[Hendrik]

For me,

This is a simple and obvious issue.

WCK today which is influence by Hong Kong Ip Man evolution is similar to learning to drive an automatic car. it provides one a basic knowledge on how to drive an automatic car with limited condition on the car (limited to automatic) and driving within the city.

This type of automatic shift driving is good for small tiny commute but it doesnt work if one is going to go safari in different part of the world.


Real fighting training is like mastering how to drive different shift of automobile, maintain and repair different type of automobile. driving two wheel drive, four wheel drive, truck....etc. driving with ice chain....etc.. driving in mud, ice, sand, water, rock, hill, valley....etc.


So, the present Hong Kong Ip Man influence evolve WCK does a very good job for little self-defense figther against those who doesnt know how to fight. But facing the real fighter, it doesnt do the job. That is obvious.


So, one needs to learn what to expect. it is just impractical to expect a city commute driver can handle safari.


There are too many assumption in WCK today which is hidden. similar to one assume the car is automatic. and the driving speed is 30 miles per hour area.



Obviously this type of art is not the same with the art in the Red Boat era when it is used to fight the real fighter. it is a totally different training.


I often talk about the 20ch and six directional force vectors. just take a look, most WCner is not even expose to this type of basic of basic. that means they are not train to handle their basic body motion well. or means their body doesnt function well. also, with lots of bad habit such as the general training of the SLT/SNT, it get one stuck. so it is hopeless to talk about WC fighter based on this type of training because it is like talking learning to riding a bicycle compare with a full train military transportation professional army.

I would say CLF today is a much better system compare with this "city commute" art.


finally, full range fighting is not every one's game, not every one can do it not every age can do it. there are lots of body conditioning, weapon conditioning.....etc. beside the strategy and technics.

The person with a different type of body condition and weapon conditioning might needs a ceratin technics or might not even needs much technics to do the job because the body and weapon ability varies. So, that is the reality.

For example, the WCK's shock power. it supposed to be fast accelerated or quick draw and very powerfully penerated. now look at the movie Ip Man 2. even that is just a movie which the director can fantasy anything. the director end up using that chain punch against the boxer. can those type of punch be fast enough and strong enough? Nope. that weapon cant do the job.

So, WCK per the movie doesnt have a weapon or doesnt have a big gun. and so how is one without a big gun can do anything to those has bigger gun?

So, those tan bong fok and chain punch are just city commute tool. in the ancient time, one doesnt call oneself a martial artist without having a big gun.

WCK's big gun suppose to be the Shock power and what is WCK today without that big gun?

So it is analogy of a tiger without the claw, without the body streght.... welll that is a cat. it is good for chasing the mouse but not even fighting a bull. That is the reality of WCK.


Chi sau is just a city tour simulation tool like to those flight or driving simulator, how real is that? can one even learn how to drive a car with just driving simulator? that is called playing video game instead of driving. it is a good tool but it is not reality. not to mention the simulator is limited to one and only one area of the city.


if you want to get back to the ancient WCK, then going back to the 20Ch and 6DVF... to do train for the basic is the first step. other then that it is really hopeless.




Just for fun,

to0 bad I am not a single young college grad with hot shot position trying to find a girl friend, otherwise I will pick the beautiful flight attendance and let them use thier WCK to set and trap themself up .
http://www.terminalu.com/travel-news/hong-kong-airlines-cabin-crew-take-kung-fu-lessons/8774/

it is better they dont have their WCK that make them safer.

[Phil Redmond]

This argument is overused and falls completely flat. Everyone says they didn't have cameras back in the day during their fights. Than they talk about the current fighting their students do. Then they put up clips of chi Sao or drilling only. Cameras are readily available today and if you wanted to film sparring you would. Maybe many are waiting for the sparring to look good so it does t get made fun of by Internet snipers. Maybe people are afraid to admit that fighting looks like fighting and WC training doesn't resemble fighting.


This argument goes for many traditional styles and not just WC.
I wrote:
"Well, I fought and won full contact matches when not everyone had a camera like now.
So I know that WC can work. There are some fight clips on my website and my two youtube channels. Then there is Shawn Obasi."
Just in case you were referring to my post. Along with my Wing Chun training I was trained by Yoel Judah, and Mark Breland.
These fights were mostly at Fu Jow Pai events where elbows, knees, and takedowns were legal. You were even allowed to strike an opponent on the ground no more than 3 times. My fights weren't videoed but I did fight a famous fighter from NY named Jonas Nunez. Also, I don't just have drills and chi sao clips. I have clips of our guys competing in full contact events as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS2WUlq8C0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39-unagGqPw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aue6bIplPwI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmGajyKqbeQ

There are also clips of other WC people fighting on my channel. I'm training people for fights now. Where are you located? Maybe you can stop by our NYC school.

[anerlich]

I don't know if any of the guys on this forum know this but both a 'distance fighter' and a 'grappler' want you to try to close the gap, so that they don't have to, and then they try to break your timing, and if their timing is good, you're screwed.

I've trained in BJJ for about twelve years, plus lengthy spells of wrestling and MMA, so yeah, I do have some inkling.


And there's lots of stuff I can use, following the motto of using "Old age and treachery to defeat speed and youth".

I'm older than you. So are a number of regular posters on this forum, including Phil and Joy.


That means not going face-to-face and mano-a-mano against some superbly trained brute. If I ever had to defend myself against a highly skilled and conditioned young fighter, I would use every and any "treacherous" approach possibe, knowing that it isn't a "fair fight".

The thread was about WC working against other martial arts in a competitive situation, not self defense or escaping a criminally violent situation. Martial skill is one of the least important factors in surviving violent crime.

Didn't see a lot of WC or stickwork in the Butch and Sundance clip. Plus, yeah, that was a MOVIE...


I know what WC can do and I know what WC cannot do. And if I ever want to grow as a martial artist, that's the first step.

Well, exactly. After the first decade or so of training, you SHOULD be starting to look for holes and weaknesses, and seeing where the rules need to be broken.

If YOU'RE not happy with Wing Chun, it's not up to anyone else but YOU to change that. Don't expect other WC people to fight full contact for you so you can feel comfortable about your choice of MA. If you want things to change, it's basically up to you. No one else's responsibility.

[anerlich]

I often talk about the 20ch and six directional force vectors

Way too often.

[mvbrown21]

I've trained in BJJ for about twelve years, plus lengthy spells of wrestling and MMA, so yeah, I do have some inkling.

Cool, good for you, what is your point in response to my point?


I'm older than you. So are a number of regular posters on this forum, including Phil and Joy.

Once again, I don't understand how you are adding to the conversation


The thread was about WC working against other martial arts in a competitive situation, not self defense or escaping a criminally violent situation. Martial skill is one of the least important factors in surviving violent crime.

Didn't see a lot of WC or stickwork in the Butch and Sundance clip. Plus, yeah, that was a MOVIE...

Why are you picking on Grumblegeezer? And it was to some degree about self-defense in regards to a skilled, experienced opponent


Well, exactly. After the first decade or so of training, you SHOULD be starting to look for holes and weaknesses, and seeing where the rules need to be broken.

If YOU'RE not happy with Wing Chun, it's not up to anyone else but YOU to change that. Don't expect other WC people to fight full contact for you so you can feel comfortable about your choice of MA. If you want things to change, it's basically up to you. No one else's responsibility.

No sh!t!

You fall into the category of someone who doesn't understand what I am talking about. That's ok but maybe you should go reread my posts again...

[mvbrown21]

Well, exactly. After the first decade or so of training, you SHOULD be starting to look for holes and weaknesses, and seeing where the rules need to be broken.

If YOU'RE not happy with Wing Chun, it's not up to anyone else but YOU to change that. Don't expect other WC people to fight full contact for you so you can feel comfortable about your choice of MA. If you want things to change, it's basically up to you. No one else's responsibility.

Just in case you didn't read my post above here's an excerpt:

"At one point in time I thought it was more a 'combat art' but I now believe it to be more a 'concept art'. It's not that I haven't tested it out myself because I have. Many times in both a real environment and also a sparring environment. You can fight dirty all day long and win, and WC is very good at having dirty technique. But that about amounts to someone's in your face, they push you or something of the like, and you attack easily obliterating them. In a lot of ways it's no different from a sucker punch, and at least to this WC practitioner, that doesn't amount to quality of skill. Anyone could use that aggressive concept and win with any technique, WC or not.

Now when it comes to an opponent who's not that stupid and has a fair amount of skill themselves, things drastically change in regards to WC. I know some WC guys here do practice sparring. That's great. But the technique that everyone here learned, the 3 forms, the dummy, the weapons forms, Chi Sao, etc., essentially the technique itself, are simply not there when facing off against a worthy opponent. It goes right out the window and they become more 'natural' fighters. Now they can call it WC and say that that's their basis for what they're doing. That's fine, but that just proves that the WC system itself is just 'concept' based then. These guys have evolved their technique outside of the original system and I don't know about you, but that tells me something."

[Buddha_Fist]

Well, exactly. After the first decade or so of training, you SHOULD be starting to look for holes and weaknesses, and seeing where the rules need to be broken.

Realizing what is working and what is not working is the awakening:

Some people, disillusioned, quit their Ving Tsun training.

Others, realize that this is the first step and take things in their own hand. They realize that they and only they are responsible of their own development, and start a whole new journey. They start re-examining their previous understanding of Ving Tsun through the goggles of sparring. They maximize the limited time that is available to them by stopping to listen to those who just make them waste time, and start focusing on those that help them to acquire real skill... Things get interesting!

Which pill do you choose to take?

http://www.contrarianism.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/red-pill-or-blue-pill.jpg

[anerlich]

Quote:
Originally Posted by anerlich
I've trained in BJJ for about twelve years, plus lengthy spells of wrestling and MMA, so yeah, I do have some inkling.

Cool, good for you, what is your point in response to my point?



You said, to me and another guy:


I don't know if any of the guys on this forum know this

My point is that I do know this.


Why are you picking on Grumblegeezer? And it was to some degree about self-defense in regards to a skilled, experienced opponent


OK. I misunderstood your intent. May or may not be my fault.


Just in case you didn't read my post above here's an excerpt:


I did read them. You say you've tested it out. But you're still unhappy. Maybe you need to approach things from a different angle.


You fall into the category of someone who doesn't understand what I am talking about.

Sorry, I though you were looking for suggestions, not delivering a sermon.

[lance]

Hello, newbie perspective here...

I've recently started training in JKD. I have a real interest and respect for Wing Chun and it's some of the most enjoyable parts of my workouts. However, I see WC as a very valuable part of a bigger system of fighting (JKD or whatever one wants to call it) rather than the complete system itself. There are vital skills, concepts, and tools (e.g. pak sao, forward pressure, economy of motion) that one can use from WC during a real fight and/or full contact event; so looking for instances of people successfully using elements of WC during a fight seems more logical to me than looking for folks using exclusively WC during a fight.

One of the most profound posts I've read here recently was when Phil Redmond stated something to the effect of him being a Martial Artist who specializes in Wing Chun rather than being strictly a WC man. I really like this philosophy.

Just because one doesn't see a plethora of videos on YouTube of fighters effectively using nothing but Wing Chun during full contact fights doesn't equate, in my mind anyways, to WC lacking practicality in today's world. It simply speaks to the wisdom of using some of the tools of WC, which have withstood the test of time, as one means to an end rather than the only means to an end.

Vernon ,

Welcome , to this thread , who is your teacher in JKD ? Are you learning the original JKD or JKD concepts ? Just wanted to know ?

[SavvySavage]

I wrote:
"Well, I fought and won full contact matches when not everyone had a camera like now.
So I know that WC can work. There are some fight clips on my website and my two youtube channels. Then there is Shawn Obasi."
Just in case you were referring to my post. Along with my Wing Chun training I was trained by Yoel Judah, and Mark Breland.
These fights were mostly at Fu Jow Pai events where elbows, knees, and takedowns were legal. You were even allowed to strike an opponent on the ground no more than 3 times. My fights weren't videoed but I did fight a famous fighter from NY named Jonas Nunez. Also, I don't just have drills and chi sao clips. I have clips of our guys competing in full contact events as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS2WUlq8C0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39-unagGqPw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aue6bIplPwI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmGajyKqbeQ

There are also clips of other WC people fighting on my channel. I'm training people for fights now. Where are you located? Maybe you can stop by our NYC school.

I wasn't talking about you. I've seen clips of your students fighting.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Post of the year in my opinion
Refreshingly honest and hard to (if not impossible) to argue against

I think youve hit it on the head with this line.....
"I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too."

Youre right... its a self defense system to protect you in a street situation.
And thats where it ends in my opinion
Ive done WC for 21 years now (not so much the last 5) and now i Box/MT..... quite simply they are better systems if you want to reach a high level of fighting.
I wont speak for the other combat styles (BJJ, wrestling etc) ,as i dont do them, but i would think the same in regards to those.

As you state, the evidence is there to support these styles, but theres none for WC.
Dont get me wrong, i love WC but im realistic in what i expect out of it.

Once again, great post
GlennR

Sure it works well against skilled fighters. I started training WC 56 years ago, and it is the only way I know to fight. I can make it work, even now in my old age it has not abandoned me. Most all other forms of fighting will eventually abandon you due to your old age. WC is forever once learned. I have a high ranking in Jap Jiujitsu, and yet only use it when I do not want to really bust someone up. But if I am mad at you and really want to do you a job, I can do it with WC. I have the skills. If you really want to make WC work for you, you have to have confidence in it and train it like you trust it. Otherwise it is just a game of chi sao for you.

[GlennR]

Sure it works well against skilled fighters. I started training WC 56 years ago, and it is the only way I know to fight. I can make it work, even now in my old age it has not abandoned me. Most all other forms of fighting will eventually abandon you due to your old age. WC is forever once learned. I have a high ranking in Jap Jiujitsu, and yet only use it when I do not want to really bust someone up. But if I am mad at you and really want to do you a job, I can do it with WC. I have the skills. If you really want to make WC work for you, you have to have confidence in it and train it like you trust it. Otherwise it is just a game of chi sao for you.

I agree with you on one of your points.
And that is WC being able to be used into later years, i know some good guys into there 50's and 60's, and styles such as MT are hard on the body (great for finess though)

BUT... when it comes to delivering straight out, competitive fighters you cant argue with the evidence that keeps coming back to boxing/mt/bjj/wrestling as the better styles

[bustr]

Hey guys,

I won't lie, I'm getting a little bummed here. I love WC and I know I'll never stop studying it but my outlook is really starting to change on the endgame of what WC can really do. Aside from the MT fights back in Ip Man's day where WC won a few rounds, why is there not a single piece of footage anywhere of WC dominating in a true fight, whether it be competition or street????

On a personal level I'm confident that I can handle my own against the 'average' opponent. I've used it a few times in a few situations but I used the timing I've learned, more than anything in those fights, with balance and a straight punch. Borderline WC at the end of the day. But who's to say that something like boxing couldn't teach timing even more efficiently? Boxer's have d#mn good timing!

It seems that WC and all this theory, that in a lot of respects guys just make up everyday, is just a gentlemen's club for WC only. I've seen and felt good WC dominate other WC but have never, as much as I incessantly look for it, seen a single example of a WC guy doing anything to an actual worthy opponent. There's something inherently wrong there.

WC against an average joe, hands down, you can kick some a$$. But WC against another trained fighter, never seen, ever!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing WC, I love it, but I'm also trying to be realistic in it's effectiveness. No offense to anyone anywhere but the few sparring clips that are even available are laughable to say the least. Two, they're not really fighting and three, even if the WC guy gets an upper hand, it's usually because the opponent is not very good himself.

Some guys will say, "well, competition has rules" or "WC attacks are too deadly" or "the true WC fighters don't boast themselves" or "all you gotta do is rush him when he kicks or do this or that when he punches". Screw all of that!!! There is NOTHING!!! Anywhere!! Video and photos have been available since long before WC was even exposed to the world and there is absolutely nothing!!! I don't know about anyone else here but that really bothers me.

I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too. And that just sucks. I'm tired of demo's, I'm tired of theory, I'm tired of only Chi Sau. I want to see 'proof' that WC can hold it's own in the fighting world!!!

Check out this video of K1 knockouts. Almost every single attack I see in here would break right through a WC guys "structure" and he would get knocked the **** out just like everyone else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrC8XfrL18


Anyone else here feel the same way?


_



MMA is fought in as large spacious octagon or hexagon and even when the fighters clinch there is still room (and floor space) to grapple. There is no need nor opportunity to straight blast your way out of a narrow corridor.

[trubblman]

Don't you mean why are there no Wing Chun fighters on Tee Vee?

[Frost]

I agree with you on one of your points.
And that is WC being able to be used into later years, i know some good guys into there 50's and 60's, and styles such as MT are hard on the body (great for finess though)

BUT... when it comes to delivering straight out, competitive fighters you cant argue with the evidence that keeps coming back to boxing/mt/bjj/wrestling as the better styles

i know boxers and judo guys still able to hand people their backsides well into their 50's

the question should probably be if there are so few examples of wing chun working for people in their 20 and 30's against other skilled fighters, what makes anyone thing that as you get older, slower and weaker it will suddenly work better than those styles

[lance]

Some of you understood me, some of you didn't understand, some of you misquoted me, and some of you took it as a threat....

Look, first thing's first, this has nothing to do with my teacher or lineage. IMHO I think I have some of the purest WC teaching available. The HKM/Augustine Fong line. I've been practicing WC for over 10 years now and have obtained a fairly good skill level within the system.

Once again, I'm not bashing WC. I think it's great and is a very effective self-defense system. I just, to some degree, have come to the realization that it pretty much stops there. I no longer believe it to be the 'end all, be all' that so many in the WC community believe it to be. I view it now more as a supplemental system more than a primary system.

At one point in time I thought it was more a 'combat art' but I now believe it to be more a 'concept art'. It's not that I haven't tested it out myself because I have. Many times in both a real environment and also a sparring environment. You can fight dirty all day long and win, and WC is very good at having dirty technique. But that about amounts to someone's in your face, they push you or something of the like, and you attack easily obliterating them. In a lot of ways it's no different from a sucker punch, and at least to this WC practitioner, that doesn't amount to quality of skill. Anyone could use that aggressive concept and win with any technique, WC or not.

Now when it comes to an opponent who's not that stupid and has a fair amount of skill themselves, things drastically change in regards to WC. I know some WC guys here do practice sparring. That's great. But the technique that everyone here learned, the 3 forms, the dummy, the weapons forms, Chi Sao, etc., essentially the technique itself, are simply not there when facing off against a worthy opponent. It goes right out the window and they become more 'natural' fighters. Now they can call it WC and say that that's their basis for what they're doing. That's fine, but that just proves that the WC system itself is just 'concept' based then. These guys have evolved their technique outside of the original system and I don't know about you, but that tells me something.

Now you'll either understand what I'm trying to express here or you won't. That's fine. But just remember that whether you're a teacher or a student, you are being irresponsible with your safety or your students safety if you are lead to believe that the WC system alone will protect you.

Let me state this once again, I love Wing Chun, I will continue to study it probably my whole life. I've just realized that, unlike the type of "fantasy-fu" that is talked about within this forum about the different lineages, the "fantasy-fu" that the WC community 'as a whole' promotes will no longer have it's grip on me. I know what WC can do and I know what WC cannot do. And if I ever want to grow as a martial artist, that's the first step.

Mybrown , excuse me for reading your thread wrong , your wing chun lineage Ho Kam Ming / Austine Fong , I heard that they ' re good , so keep up your wing chun training . Because now that you mentioned your wing chun lineage and the number of years of experience you have in wing chun , now I can see where your comming from , so sorry to misunderstand your thread . You should be good by now so I ' ll leave you alone .

As for your qustion why is ' nt there any WC fights out there or anywhere ? Well your guess is just as good as mine a big ? .

Is Fong Sifu still teaching Hung Gar ? Because I heard that he learned Hung Gar and choy li fut . But anyway , keep training up the training .

[GlennR]

i know boxers and judo guys still able to hand people their backsides well into their 50's

the question should probably be if there are so few examples of wing chun working for people in their 20 and 30's against other skilled fighters, what makes anyone thing that as you get older, slower and weaker it will suddenly work better than those styles

Yep, dont personally know any judo guys but i know a few 50 plus boxers that can more than look after themselves.

The reason the older guys in WC appear good is that they (generally) only train with their own students..... they know their juniors game so its a no brainer that they appear superior.

Especially if chi-sao is the measuring stick.

So when the 20-30 yo's finally meet up with, say a 20-30 yo MT stylist, they get owned

And i think its criminal that these instructors dont get their studemts to mix it up with other styles...its either arrogance, stupidity or a combination of both.

And if i read one more guy say, i know this guy thats never been filmed blah blah blah..... ill puke

[sanjuro_ronin]

The answer is actual quite simple:
The reason you don't see many ( virtually none to be honest) WC practioners fighting full contact is because the VAST MAJORITY of them do NOT train to fight full contact or compete.
The reason you see so many boxers, MT fighters, MMA fighters, BJJ fighters and so forth is because a sizeable percentage of them train to fight and compete.

Now, perhaps the "more correct" question is why don't more WC people train to fight and compete.

And that is a very good question.

[couch]

Sorry, I though you were looking for suggestions, not delivering a sermon.

Yes, I agree. I totally see where this has gone. As per usual, a 'good intentions' thread was just a covert-op mission.

[couch]

And just to comment on the issue that Wing Chun doesn't look like any other fighting:

It doesn't look like any other fighting methodology because it doesn't work.

If it looked like all other methods (somewhat) then, in my mind, we could all kick back with a cold one believing in our hearts that NOW our Wing Chun was functional.

[Vajramusti]

As threads go--this too is zig zagging. To answer Matt's original questions- if I got it right..or atleast give some observations and opinions.Not arguing with others-nor preaching.

1. Matt himself posted a shot of a wc guy who won againsts a MT guy.
2. Lui Ming Fai's website has won against a MT guy and his site has a shot of him .
3. I have seen several of Matt's sihings- not from his kwoon-in action against non wc guys in tournaments-that includes Dom, Danny and Nancy- no videos were involved.
4. I got disqualified in a couple of matches against non wc guys for breaking the rules and excessive force..I was interested in only what works and it did. No pictures- no interest in trophies.
5. I squared off against a MT instructor in NY in the 90s- to see what worked- and was satisfied.
Ditto- in experimenting with grapplers and strikers.
6. There are pics of wc against non wc that I have seen that are not on you tube.
7. wing chun is not just conceptual- it is combative.
8. My advice to anyone who has done wc for 8 years or so and don't have confidence in their wc-
do something else. Wing chun is not the only way to combat- but I am happy and confident with it.Acceptance by others is not my goal.

joy

[n.mitch]

I trend to think its more the training rather than the system
.lots of wing chun schools don't do any bag work or sparring, lots don't even do fitness, just lots of chi sao, so they don't do well when they spar , because they don't learn opponents timing and mobile foot work.. If u want to do well sparring against other styles then u have to practice sparring

[Phil Redmond]

The answer is actual quite simple:
The reason you don't see many ( virtually none to be honest) WC practioners fighting full contact is because the VAST MAJORITY of them do NOT train to fight full contact or compete.
The reason you see so many boxers, MT fighters, MMA fighters, BJJ fighters and so forth is because a sizeable percentage of them train to fight and compete.

Now, perhaps the "more correct" question is why don't more WC people train to fight and compete.

And that is a very good question.
Your post Wing Chun'd (simplified) it. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your post Wing Chun'd (simplified) it. :)

Thanks Phil :)
Fact is that those that have used WC in fights know that that it works.
Fact is that EVERY MA system has to be trained to be used in a fight for it to work in a fight.
It's the training, not the system.
Take pretty much ANY MA and if you train it within a fighting environment, it will work in that environment.
You and your people have shown it, Alan and his people have shown it.

[Vajramusti]

Thanks Phil :)
Fact is that those that have used WC in fights know that that it works.
Fact is that EVERY MA system has to be trained to be used in a fight for it to work in a fight.
It's the training, not the system.
Take pretty much ANY MA and if you train it within a fighting environment, it will work in that environment.
You and your people have shown it, Alan and his people have shown it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you do sport fighting you certainly need to train for the requirements of particular events
so as not to gas out etc. The bjj folks are is superb shape and patient and calm- good qualities to have.
But of the rules are unclear or there are no rules you have to be prepared to do what you need to do and not play a game specially the other fellow's game.

And on the street.. alertness, awareness and decisiveness are ahead of technique of any kind and you don't need to film it...actually-you shouldn't.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you do sport fighting you certainly need to train for the requirements of particular events
so as not to gas out etc. The bjj folks are is superb shape and patient and calm- good qualities to have.
But of the rules are unclear or there are no rules you have to be prepared to do what you need to do and not play a game specially the other fellow's game.

And on the street.. alertness, awareness and decisiveness are ahead of technique of any kind and you don't need to film it...actually-you shouldn't.

joy chaudhuri

Point made.
I personally have never been a "fan" of the whole "street VS ring" thing, it makes no sense to me.
If your stuff can't work under the best conditions ( the ring, a controlled environment with uniform rules), the chances of it working where there are no rules will be far less.
BUT the street does require a bit of a different mindset in terms of alertness and awareness, no doubt about that.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Having been in fights in the ring, street, and also having trained with very light gloves, with and without shoes, I will say that WC and most traditional arts are taught in a way that allows you to survive more "street-style" encounters. You might not like WC punching for a ring but train with very light gloves or bare knuckles with no wrist support and the punching style starts making a lot of sense.

The kicking seems less effective in the ring. Well, look to Savate where shoes are used and you will see a lot of short snappy kicks because they wear shoes and use them as weapons.

Even classical Muay Thai is deficient for contemporary Muay thai events. Although, in a bare knuckle scenario, classical Muay Thai with its lack of boxing hand techniques might be more effective in the long run as you won't break your hand. The modern ring is an environment that dictates certain skills and techniques. Insisting upon proving that classical WC works in that environment is just foolish. The environment dictates what you need to do.

Although, I think a guy like Phil will agree that a heck of a lot transports from classical WC into the ring. He works with some professional boxers who seem to be of the same opinion. Short, quick punching and snappy accurate kicks can be an asset. The clinching, parries, and footwork are always useful as well.

[mvbrown21]

As threads go--this too is zig zagging. To answer Matt's original questions- if I got it right..or atleast give some observations and opinions.Not arguing with others-nor preaching.

1. Matt himself posted a shot of a wc guy who won againsts a MT guy.
2. Lui Ming Fai's website has won against a MT guy and his site has a shot of him .
3. I have seen several of Matt's sihings- not from his kwoon-in action against non wc guys in tournaments-that includes Dom, Danny and Nancy- no videos were involved.
4. I got disqualified in a couple of matches against non wc guys for breaking the rules and excessive force..I was interested in only what works and it did. No pictures- no interest in trophies.
5. I squared off against a MT instructor in NY in the 90s- to see what worked- and was satisfied.
Ditto- in experimenting with grapplers and strikers.
6. There are pics of wc against non wc that I have seen that are not on you tube.
7. wing chun is not just conceptual- it is combative.
8. My advice to anyone who has done wc for 8 years or so and don't have confidence in their wc-
do something else. Wing chun is not the only way to combat- but I am happy and confident with it.Acceptance by others is not my goal.

joy

Wow, way to throw me under the bus Joy!

I've tried to leave the lineage out of it and have even responded that this has nothing to do with my Sifu, Sigung, etc.... This is a personal revelation and yet again, the small print at the bottom that no one seemed to read, I simply asked "Anyone else here feel the same way?"

I've also stated that I love WC and will probably never stop and that WC is a very effective self-defense system.

I love how you say things too, like you aren't responding to me directly but choose an indirect path to save face. And it's definitely not about acceptance by others either Joy, and quite honestly, the indirect way you implied that to me offends me.

Joy, you have a PhD, don't know what it's in, but hey, that means you're probably a smart guy.

It doesn't take much after using a little scientific theory to see that, bottom line, either WC is one of the most difficult systems in the world to apply in a "pure" sense or it's simply not there, period, at least in the understanding that the WC community promotes. And I don't believe guys who fight and the actual technique isn't there, to be still fighting with WC

And that was my point, simple as that, WC has it's place in fighting but I choose reality over fantasy. Doesn't mean I'm bashing WC or my teacher or your teacher.

I am happy and confident with my WC Joy. I think I can apply "certain" things against a "worthy" opponent. I think "others" can too. And I think there is that rare exception, as well.

But I've concluded that there's some serious limitations to WC, and that the WC community is somewhat responsible for promoting an idea that it's a flawless system, hence putting the average practitioner in a somewhat safety situation. And at the end of the day Joy, the lack of evidence supports me more than you.

Matt

[Buddha_Fist]

Point made.
I personally have never been a "fan" of the whole "street VS ring" thing, it makes no sense to me.
If your stuff can't work under the best conditions ( the ring, a controlled environment with uniform rules), the chances of it working where there are no rules will be far less.BUT the street does require a bit of a different mindset in terms of alertness and awareness, no doubt about that.

That's the point. A lot of people dismiss the ring as not being representative of what goes on in the street. This should immediately raise a flag as there are many factors that are essential in both environments: punching precision and power, timing, distance control, balanced and swift footwork, etc. Sanjuro's right, poor performance in the ring is not likely to improve dramatically in the street (unless a Glock is added to the mix...).

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's the point. A lot of people dismiss the ring as not being representative of what goes on in the street. This should immediately raise a flag as there are many factors that are essential in both environments: punching precision and power, timing, distance control, balanced and swift footwork, etc. Sanjuro's right, poor performance in the ring is unlikely going to improve dramatically in the street (unless a Glock is added to the mix...).

My old TKD instructor once said:
If you can't Knock a guy out with a kick wearing loose pants, after having stretched and warmed up, with a level floor, under ideal conditions, how the **** are you gonna do it on the street?

That goes for pretty much every other technique you can think of.

[Buddha_Fist]

My old TKD instructor once said:
If you can't Knock a guy out with a kick wearing loose pants, after having stretched and warmed up, with a level floor, under ideal conditions, how the **** are you gonna do it on the street?

That goes for pretty much every other technique you can think of.

Gotta steal that quote now! :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Gotta steal that quote now! :D

Glad I can be of service :D

I can say this, the vast majority of good ring fighters I know, ALL can handle themselves on the street, regardless of sport.
I can't say the same for the majority of TMA I know that do NOT compete/train full contact.

[YouKnowWho]

My old TKD instructor once said:
If you can't Knock a guy out with a kick wearing loose pants, after having stretched and warmed up, with a level floor, under ideal conditions, how the **** are you gonna do it on the street?

That goes for pretty much every other technique you can think of.

The difference is in the ring, people are very conservative and not willing to commit. When you kick, your opponent will step back (because that's the way he trained). On the street, you will meet people who tries to knock your head off so bad that he will run into your kick.

The following clip (at 4.26) that bear runs into the spear can happen in the street but difficult to make it to happen in the ring (may be your opponent in the ring is smarter?).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31h5gbazwU

[HumbleWCGuy]

Glad I can be of service :D

I can say this, the vast majority of good ring fighters I know, ALL can handle themselves on the street, regardless of sport.

Of course, timing, strength, power, endurance, and athleticism all transfer from situation to situation, but there are subtle differences between the ring, street, or from event to event. Let's say that you train for a kickboxing event that doesn't allow clinching and you get there and it is allowed or vice versa? You can't say that you wouldn't punch differently in a street setting. I know that I am much more careful about hitting elbows when I have super thin gloves on or no gloves as an example. I know for sure that I am not going to try to kick with the ball of my foot to the body without shoes but I would do it at the drop of the hat with shoes on.

[Frost]

The difference is in the ring, people are very conservative and not willing to commit. On the street, you will meet people who tries to knock your head off badly that he will run into your kick or punch. Sometime if you step out of your way, your over committed opponent may even fall of the cliff behind you. I find that "over committed' case just don't happen that often in the ring fight.

seriously you need to watc h more amatuer MMA and kick boxing, what you say is true of the more professional fighters but every single amatuer fighter i have seen in their first few fight trys to take their opponents head off with their first punches (adrenleine can do funny things to even level headed guys)

the main difference is in the ring you are normally fighting a trained conditioned opponent

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course, timing, strength, power, endurance, and athleticism all transfer from situation to situation, but there are subtle differences between the ring, street, or from event to event. Let's say that you train for a kickboxing event that doesn't allow clinching and you get there and it is allowed or vice versa? You can't say that you wouldn't punch differently in a street setting. I know that I am much more careful about hitting elbows when I have super thin gloves on or no gloves as an example. I know for sure that I am not going to try to kick with the ball of my foot to the body without shoes but I would do it at the drop of the hat with shoes on.

All that applies to those that don't fight full contact either, they are in the same boat with the difference being that those that do fight full contact are better prepared physically and mentally for hitting and getting hit and the effort that BOTH take.
And KB does "allow" for the clinch by the way.

[HumbleWCGuy]

KB does "allow" for the clinch by the way.

It depends on where you fight but whether any one event allows something or not my point was about about being in an event that you weren't prepared for. I think that Wing Chunners can be in that boat sometimes because they have never competed and no one they know has either so they go in not quite ready. Even if you have most of the necessary attributes but you have quick snappy kicks that you like to use and don't have a sound heavy round house. You are at a disadvantage without shoes. For Wing Chunners it goes a bit beyond that subtly and they get discouraged and don't compete.


Edit:
I think that even if a Wing Chunner trained well and did everything correctly from a training perspective, mitts, bags, sparring, and conditioning. There are subtitles of Wing Chung that just aren't effective for certain types of ring events and have to be trained out while other things have to be added. Generally TMAists aren't well equipped for the transition.

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Matt, I agree that there is no flawless system.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=mvbrown21;1096955]Wow, way to throw me under the bus Joy!

((I am genuinely surprised by your comment.We are mis-communicating))joy

I've tried to leave the lineage out of it and have even responded that this has nothing to do with my Sifu, Sigung, etc.... This is a personal revelation and yet again, the small print at the bottom that no one seemed to read, I simply asked "Anyone else here feel the same way?"

((You did mention them in passing in your posts. Your post seemed to raise several different questions. I apparently do not feel the same way as you do. The art does not do anything- the artist does.))

I've also stated that I love WC and will probably never stop and that WC is a very effective self-defense system.

((I did not question that point)

I love how you say things too, like you aren't responding to me directly but choose an indirect path to save face. And it's definitely not about acceptance by others either Joy, and quite honestly, the indirect way you implied that to me offends me.

((Indirect- I don't think so. I did not intend to offend you or anyone else.))

Joy, you have a PhD, don't know what it's in, but hey, that means you're probably a smart guy.

((I am way past a PHD-I have given those for some time- but that has absolutely nothing to do with the thread or this list. Different hats in different places))

It doesn't take much after using a little scientific theory to see that, bottom line, either WC is one of the most difficult systems in the world to apply in a "pure" sense or it's simply not there, period, at least in the understanding that the WC community promotes. And I don't believe guys who fight and the actual technique isn't there, to be still fighting with WC

((I opt for the former.. wing chun aims for simplicity in application but is not simple to learn IMO.
Also- there is no such thing as "the WC community"-I have held that opinion for quite some time - almost from the beginning))

And that was my point, simple as that, WC has it's place in fighting but I choose reality over fantasy. Doesn't mean I'm bashing WC or my teacher or your teacher.

((I did NOT think that you were blasting your teacher or mine. I believe that you misunderstood what I was saying. Happens in net communications. Apparently I don't understand how you are using the terms "reality" and "fantasy". I am sorry for that.. plus any contribution of mine to the misunderstanding.))

I am happy and confident with my WC Joy. I think I can apply "certain" things against a "worthy" opponent. I think "others" can too. And I think there is that rare exception, as well.

((OK))

But I've concluded that there's some serious limitations to WC, and that the WC community is somewhat responsible for promoting an idea that it's a flawless system, hence putting the average practitioner in a somewhat safety situation. And at the end of the day Joy, the lack of evidence supports me more than you.

((I understand your stated opinion. You have not been here long enough to see some of my repeated statements that many folks should not be doing wing chun and many folks should not be teaching wing chun. Wing chun has spread too much for it's own good))

joy chaudhuri

[shawchemical]

= I know what WC can do and I know what WC cannot do. And if I ever want to grow as a martial artist, that's the first step.

This is the fundamental flaw of your argument, and highlights what your problem is.

WC doesn't do anything. It is simply a tool. It is all about what YOU can do, or what you CAN'T do.

Your claim that you feel that your training is still useful, but that it doesn't fit as what you thought it's capability for equipping you was is nonsense. Either admit that the school in which you were training did not teach or train effectively, that you did not train diligently, or that your fundamental point is entirely invalid.

[kowloonboy]

“Understand the principles for your training.” – Wing Chun kuen Kuit

“Upon achieving the highest level of proficiency, application of techniques will vary depending on the opponent.” – Wing Chun kuen Kuit

Wong Shun Leung said "Wing Chun in theory is perfect but never can someone achieve such a state of perfection." This is because Wing Chun is based on principles that are always true. However principles are really just ideas so in order to apply them you must move in a certain way (perform a technique, even if it is something you have never done before). Inevitably the practitioner cannot always perform in the perfect way, they can only train hard to get as close to perfection as their body will allow them.

[mvbrown21]

I find it amusing that WC guys can talk, analyze, and dissect WC all day long but the second it turns to how effective WC is against a skilled opponent, there's really not a discussion. Just attacks on your training and a straight refusal to have an open mind to something we've all invested a tremendous amount of time into.

Look, in theory, almost "every" martial art is perfect and it definitely is up to the individual. All I'm saying is that, whether myself as an individual, or others, as individuals, the technique itself, of WC doesn't appear to bode very well against trained, experienced opponents. In theory, it's the most scientific approach to fighting ever! But in reality, your bong sau, biu sau, or any other technique for that matter, "will" collapse against a bigger, stronger opponent the majority, if not all, of the time. If you think that you can "flow" with it and make a follow up attack, you'll be pretty surprised when he doesn't fall. And then what are you going to do? If he's a distance fighter, you'll probably have to attempt it all over again, once again making yourself vulnerable. So what do you do, and 99% of every guy who's "really" tested out their WC. You go outside of the technique and start fighting in a more natural way and half the time, it's pathetic.

To this wing chunner, if myself or someone else goes outside the technique, I don't consider it still to be WC, I consider it to now be concept. People here take concept as a bad thing and I don't know why?

All of this is strictly my personal observation and I honestly thought more people would be open to kind of conversation considering a good chunk of guys got into WC because of Bruce Lee whom approached this subject not too differently from myself.

[Hendrik]

Here is my five cents of straight talk, take it or leave it :D



I find it amusing that WC guys can talk, analyze, and dissect WC all day long but the second it turns to how effective WC is against a skilled opponent, there's really not a discussion.

Just attacks on your training and a straight refusal to have an open mind to something we've all invested a tremendous amount of time into.

It has become a cult practice that refuse to even face the facture. Name brand, ego, and everyone like to have an opinion disregards if the opinion worth anything or not.





Look, in theory, almost "every" martial art is perfect and it definitely is up to the individual.

That is not true at all. Even in China there is lower level village fighting practice and advance martial art practice by IE the Emperor's body guard.

Not everything is equal.





All I'm saying is that, whether myself as an individual, or others, as individuals, the technique itself, of WC doesn't appear to bode very well against trained, experienced opponents.

If you take a digitized force/power vector trajectory of today's typical WCner vesus the same digitize power trajectory of say Ice man.

You will find out WCner has only a high density frontal power trajectory compare with such as the Iceman where the high density power trajectory cover much wider range and much dynamic. also the power intensity will be much higher then the WCner due to the big body as a whole motion.


So, by physics, WCK today has a much narrow firing range and less intensity compare with mmA.

Thus, if you look at the clips of all WCner who fought in mmA, they adapt the wider firing range and higher intensity power/momentum training and discard the so called WC rapid fire to center line training. They will call it something like using the body structure.... or different term. However, that is very similar to the mmA power/momentum platform rather then the usual WCK chi sau, forward pressure YJKYM, Chain punch platform.








In theory, it's the most scientific approach to fighting ever! But in reality, your bong sau, biu sau, or any other technique for that matter, "will" collapse against a bigger, stronger opponent the majority, if not all, of the time.

Theory is only for those who have never train the real deal but want to stay at upper hand while argue in the internet forum. The facts needs to based on power/momentum handling/management.

Bong Sau, Biu Sau .... are just name of shape which is meaningless. The bottom line is how fast one could generate the power or absorbtion and how high the intensity of impact. Whether it use the shape of Bong Sau or Biu Sau it doesnt matter.




If you think that you can "flow" with it and make a follow up attack, you'll be pretty surprised when he doesn't fall. And then what are you going to do? If he's a distance fighter, you'll probably have to attempt it all over again, once again making yourself vulnerable. So what do you do, and 99% of every guy who's "really" tested out their WC. You go outside of the technique and start fighting in a more natural way and half the time, it's pathetic.


For get about "flow'. Flow is mostly running away and cannot handle and sustain the pressure but losing the timing big time.




To this wing chunner, if myself or someone else goes outside the technique, I don't consider it still to be WC, I consider it to now be concept. People here take concept as a bad thing and I don't know why?



Those consider WC or not is like using the man made rule trying to bound the change of nature. It doesnt work.




All of this is strictly my personal observation and I honestly thought more people would be open to kind of conversation considering a good chunk of guys got into WC because of Bruce Lee whom approached this subject not too differently from myself.


Keep observe more and dont believe anyone,
look at law of physcis in term of power generation and momentum handling. the rest is lips service.



WCK is in its extinc phase now. take a look, that SLT/SNT set training which actually produce very little result but lots of bad habit and religion type meaningless mimic-ing. Why no one question those training? and keep wish someday "wa la" one become a super fighter.

WCK has become a cult a blindness trying to pursue oneself that what one speculate or theoritical sounds can replace physical facts. it has become an entertainment for chatting and dancing like social gethering.


if the WCner still keep romancing that Chi Sau platform and those movie like technics instead of go back to the root and examine the power/momentum generation and handling dynamics. it is a hopeless.


For me, most people today is doing Shaws Brother Chinese Martial art movies Kung Fu. That is the vision that is how they practice and that is how the result look like --- something looks great in the movie, similar to what in the movie but disconnect from the physical world. in reality, it cant even take a heavy short from a boxer, single short to knock out.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . WC doesn't appear to bode very well against trained, experienced opponents. In theory, it's the most scientific approach to fighting ever! But in reality, your bong sau, biu sau, or any other technique for that matter, "will" collapse against a bigger, stronger opponent the majority, if not all, of the time. If you think that you can "flow" with it and make a follow up attack, you'll be pretty surprised when he doesn't fall. And then what are you going to do? If he's a distance fighter, you'll probably have to attempt it all over again, once again making yourself vulnerable. So what do you do, and 99% of every guy who's "really" tested out their WC. You go outside of the technique and start fighting in a more natural way and half the time, it's pathetic. . . . .
Whoa, slow down bro. I KNOW that the WC I do and teach works against stronger opponents, boxers, or whatever. This is also true of other WC people. Don't put all WC on the same plate. ;)

[Hendrik]

Whoa, slow down bro. I KNOW that the WC I do and teach works against stronger opponents, boxers, or whatever. This is also true of other WC people. Don't put all WC on the same plate. ;)

Phil,

What do you think on my view above? I love to hear from you because you are in the competitions for decades, so your critics are valueable.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil,

What do you think on my view above? I love to hear from you because you are in the competitions for decades, so your critics are valueable.
Hendrik, due to the syntax of your post I can't get the specifics of your post but I do get the gist of it.
People who don't compete look for perfect technique in a fight. They don't realize that against a resisting opponent bent on wrecking you that perfect technique isn't always going to happen. WC people are the worst at this. They expect to see techniques like they see in their drills with compliant partners. You can look at clips of boxers/MMA fighters training on the heavy bag, with mitts, light sparring or whatever and it looks nice. But when they get into the ring you'll see all sorts of mistakes because it's the nature of real fighting. I say to ANYONE who criticizes a fighter to get into the ring and show people the right way to do it. It's that simple. I'll learn form anyone if they have something useful to teach.

[YouKnowWho]

in China there is lower level village fighting practice and advance martial art practice by IE the Emperor's body guard.

Not everything is equal.

One TCMA master once said, "If you train both style A and style B, even God and ghost will be afraid of you." One day 3 guys from style C went to that school and challenged his students. None of his students dared to accept the challenge.

One TCMA master also said, "If you train system A for 1 years, you can beat up those who train system B for 3 years." He also said, "If you train system C for 1 year, you can pick up guy who train system A for 3 years and play him as a toy in your palm."

All my life, I have never seen such style C fighter who can play others in his palm. I don't believe there is a superior TCMA style exist on this planet. If it does exist, believe me, I would be the 1st student to train in that system.

PS. Style A, B, and C are not mentioned, but people who knows what happened in Taiwan 40 years ago may know what I'm talking about here.

[Phil Redmond]

There are good and bad practitioners in ALL styles. :D

[PalmStriker]

The answer is actual quite simple:
The reason you don't see many ( virtually none to be honest) WC practioners fighting full contact is because the VAST MAJORITY of them do NOT train to fight full contact or compete.
The reason you see so many boxers, MT fighters, MMA fighters, BJJ fighters and so forth is because a sizeable percentage of them train to fight and compete.

Now, perhaps the "more correct" question is why don't more WC people train to fight and compete.

And that is a very good question.
True analysis. For WC, sport fighting takes a backseat to self-defense/offense? WC is usually not considered a fitness/health style, must be for martial skills.

[PalmStriker]

Thanks Phil :)
Fact is that those that have used WC in fights know that that it works.
Fact is that EVERY MA system has to be trained to be used in a fight for it to work in a fight.
It's the training, not the system.
Take pretty much ANY MA and if you train it within a fighting environment, it will work in that environment.
You and your people have shown it, Alan and his people have shown it.

Augustine Fong has shown it.

[PalmStriker]

Quote: mvBrown21 , I've tried to leave the lineage out of it and have even responded that this has nothing to do with my Sifu, Sigung, etc.... This is a personal revelation and yet again, the small print at the bottom that no one seemed to read, I simply asked "Anyone else here feel the same way?" :) Yes. Bruce Lee felt that way, as explained in a letter to William Cheung years ago. Different strokes.

[PalmStriker]

Lastly, for anyone who has read enough MA history there have been individuals of many different styles who have been "unbeatable" up against many different styles.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, due to the syntax of your post I can't get the specifics of your post but I do get the gist of it.
People who don't compete look for perfect technique in a fight. They don't realize that against a resisting opponent bent on wrecking you that perfect technique isn't always going to happen. WC people are the worst at this. They expect to see techniques like they see in their drills with compliant partners. You can look at clips of boxers/MMA fighters training on the heavy bag, with mitts, light sparring or whatever and it looks nice. But when they get into the ring you'll see all sorts of mistakes because it's the nature of real fighting. I say to ANYONE who criticizes a fighter to get into the ring and show people the right way to do it. It's that simple. I'll learn form anyone if they have something useful to teach.


Phil,

Thanks!

What you post is a truth.

[mvbrown21]

Whoa, slow down bro. I KNOW that the WC I do and teach works against stronger opponents, boxers, or whatever. This is also true of other WC people. Don't put all WC on the same plate. ;)

Sorry Phil, didn't mean to upset you. I think what you're doing is great! I'm not trying to put all WC onto the same plate either to make people feel bad. I was only trying to imply that the basic technique, the technique we all learn regardless of lineage, on it's own, mano to mano, will fail more times than not and that the concept alone is what matters more than anything.

When I say WC has it's limitations, I mean the WC technique itself is limited, the tools, i.e. movements, that we all learned. What I believe they're more useful for and ultimately their purpose, is to understand the concept of martial skill so that whatever movement you ultimately do, regardless of style, you understand how to make application work. So, essentially when I said before that if the technique is not there than it's not WC but WC concept, I meant that it's simply not the WC technique, the movements that we all identify with, but the concept at best, hopefully!

So, for me, personally, that's an evolution in thought and begs myself to evolve out of forcing a technique, so to speak, when fighting. I feel I'm really starting to understand Bruce Lee's break from WC technique, as a focus, and replacing it with WC concept.

"When there is freedom from mechanical conditioning, there is simplicity. The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow — you are not understanding yourself." - Bruce Lee

"It’s not how much you have learned, but how much you have absorbed from what you have learned. It is not how much fixed knowledge you can accumulate, but what you can apply livingly that counts." - Bruce Lee

"If you believe everything I say you will never be a good fighter." - Ip Man

[Buddha_Fist]

Sorry Phil, didn't mean to upset you. I think what you're doing is great! I'm not trying to put all WC onto the same plate either to make people feel bad. I was only trying to imply that the basic technique, the technique we all learn regardless of lineage, on it's own, mano to mano, will fail more times than not and that the concept alone is what matters more than anything.

When I say WC has it's limitations, I mean the WC technique itself is limited, the tools, i.e. movements, that we all learned. What I believe they're more useful for and ultimately their purpose, is to understand the concept of martial skill so that whatever movement you ultimately do, regardless of style, you understand how to make application work. So, essentially when I said before that if the technique is not there than it's not WC but WC concept, I meant that it's simply not the WC technique, the movements that we all identify with, but the concept at best, hopefully!

So, for me, personally, that's an evolution in thought and begs myself to evolve out of forcing a technique, so to speak, when fighting. I feel I'm really starting to understand Bruce Lee's break from WC technique, as a focus, and replacing it with WC concept.

"When there is freedom from mechanical conditioning, there is simplicity. The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow — you are not understanding yourself." - Bruce Lee

"It’s not how much you have learned, but how much you have absorbed from what you have learned. It is not how much fixed knowledge you can accumulate, but what you can apply livingly that counts." - Bruce Lee

"If you believe everything I say you will never be a good fighter." - Ip Man

Successful implementation of Ving Tsun, as is also the case of any other boxing method, requires knowing it in-and-out, its strong and weak points. You can only do this by doing reality checks through sparring. It is really an iterative process: you train to create fighting oriented habits and skills, you do the reality check through sparring, and you go back to the drawing board to continue iterating and sharpening your tools. No magic, just lots of hard work.

Ving Tsun, the way it has been passed down to me and the way that I understand it, is concept-based in the sense that you cannot train applications for the million of situations/positions/distances that you will be during an altercation. You need something more powerful than that, and this is the practice of habits that are universally applicable no matter in what situation/position/distance you are.

Ving Tsun has its strong points. One of these strong points being square facing (both upper body and hip positioning) to create a rapid exchange linked to forward pressure. Its structure also has its challenges. Two of them being punching power and reach when compared to a boxer's body mechanics. These challenges have to be recognized and worked against. In the specific case of reach, you will quickly realize that you need to develop swift footwork, as well as a good sense of timing, positioning, and distance. There is a long list of things to be looked out for and to be trained, but the bottomline is that the approach matters and that sparring is simply part of it.

[k gledhill]

" I was only trying to imply that the basic technique, the technique we all learn regardless of lineage, on it's own, mano to mano, will fail more times than not and that the concept alone is what matters more than anything. "

What 'technique' is that ?

just a btw , I used VT in many fights and it never let me down.

[m1k3]

" I was only trying to imply that the basic technique, the technique we all learn regardless of lineage, on it's own, mano to mano, will fail more times than not and that the concept alone is what matters more than anything. "

What 'technique' is that ?

just a btw , I used VT in many fights and it never let me down.

I think the point the OP was trying to make is that WC is effective in low level fights but you don't see it being used against high level opponents.

MMA in particular and all competitive based martial arts are pragmatic. In other words truth is what works. That means it is flexible because what works for me may not be what works for you. Appeals to lineage, history or tradition don't matter. Principles don't matter. It either works or it doesn't.

If you aren't seeing what looks like pieces of your style in MMA matches then maybe you need to relook at your art.

Personally I see some practical WC being used in the form of clinch fighting. To me that's what WC should like in a fight.

Can you fight high level MMA with just WC? The answer is no. But the answer to that same question is no for boxing, MT, Judo, wrestling and BJJ also. However these arts tend to be more pragmatic across the board due to the fact that they train to fight within the bounds of their respective rule sets.

[wolf3001]

It's just my opinion but from what I have seen of many traditional schools people just don't train to actually use what they are being taught. Boxers and MMA people train to fight thats what they do they get into a ring and actually hit each other. Unfortunately for whatever reason many people practicing these combat arts just don't always train with the force necessary to actually use the art in a real fight. I know when I tried TKD the school was very focused on sport we sparred using tournament rules that I just hated and I eventually left. A couple guys I train with are wanting to join a local MMA fight in a few weeks. We went to sign them up and learn the rules and they were shocked by everything we couldn't use. No open hand strikes, no elbows and there was a lot more to remember. I wouldn't mind trying at some point but I am not in as good of shape as I would like. I have however been in a fight I have fought previous to my WC training not in any ring but to defend myself. WC like any art gives what you put into it train for real and it can help you but if you train with no pressure and only do predetermined routines your not going to get far. Why are there no Wing Chun fighters because not to many care to thats the reality of it. Out of everyone I have trained with only a couple I know would want to. My Sifu is in his 60s I believe he has no desire to do these things.

I think as time goes there will be more but I don't know that it's going to be a major thing. I would love to see more Wing Chun schools get into actual MMA fights however I don't want them to turn into purely MMA arts. I have gotten a lot of crap online from BJJ guys and other MMA style people for doing Wing Chun. It gets old but what can you do? I know what I know and im trying to get better. Im not out to win trophies if I fought in the ring it would be more to test my skills. Im not sure that these fights really favor our art though. My guys are a bit worried with the rules being used in the up coming fight. We have also been told many of the fighters use mostly grappling. Many of the things we would do in situations are illegal in this fight. My friends are worried that they wont be able to keep from using an open hand they are also worried about people misjudging out techniques as elbow strikes or whatever. I told them go if your disqualified thats not a loss it simply shows we are different.

[YouKnowWho]

focused on sport ...

There is nothing wrong to follow the sport rules, but the sport is only the training stage. It may build up bad habit if you stay there too long. Not going through the sport training is bad. Staying in sport training forever is bad too. This clip is an excellent example that one just take the sport a bit too far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pUn8_sCRRI

[Phil Redmond]

@mvbrown21 All martial arts have their limitations. Just like all combat weapons have theirs.
You simply choose the right weapon for the job. We have a jump and turn in our BJD form. AT first I said that can't be Wing Chun. Then someone swung a pole at my legs. I jumped to avoid it without even thinking. I was taught that WC had no jumps but if I didn't I'd have been stuck in the ankle. What if that had been a sword or kwan do? I'll swing a pole at the legs of anyone who says that's wrong especially if they can't step back because of a wall or something behind them and see what they do.

[YouKnowWho]

All martial arts have their limitations ... someone swung a pole at my legs.

One Famous TCMA teacher 傅嘉賓(Fu Jia Bin) in Taiwan (He used to teach in my high school but that was before my time) once got into a fight against a group of harbor workers in Shanghai. After he had beaten up those harbor workers pretty bad, they threw rocks at him and sent him to hostiple. When Fu was in hostiple, he told his friends that his teacher didn't teach him "how to dodge rocks throwing".

[Phil Redmond]

One Famous TCMA teacher 傅嘉賓(Fu Jia Bin) in Taiwan (He used to teach in my high school but that was before my time) once got into a fight against a group of harbor workers in Shanghai. After he had beaten up those harbor workers pretty bad, they threw rocks at him and sent him to hostiple. When Fu was in hostiple, he told his friends that his teacher didn't teach him "how to dodge rocks throwing".
That's a good one . . .:)

[wolf3001]

There is nothing wrong to follow the sport rules, but the sport is only the training stage. It may build up bad habit if you stay there too long. Not going through the sport training is bad. Staying in sport training forever is bad too. This clip is an excellent example that one just take the sport a bit too far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pUn8_sCRRI

I started TKD as a kid just before my 5th grade year. We practiced most of the techniques in the air little was done with a partner. Later we were paired up to spar we had so many pads I could hardly move. I was paired with an older kid who was a Black belt. This was a college class so everyone was older than I. It was never discussed that there were any rules so I just went full out on this person. All I remember is that I had them against a wall and they could hardly stop me. I was confused. I was then told that many of my strikes were illegal and at that point I was also disgusted. I left after my first grading and never returned. I had gone with my father several times to Karate and TKD tournaments as a spectator. I disliked the point sparring. I don't know all the types but for the most part they would start do a couple of attacks and then break. I sat there watching these fights thinking about what I would use against them. I actually came across a few kids in the past who had done Karate and despite my lack of training they were not very good.

I don't believe many schools train their students well. I was asked to help set up a place for a martial arts demonstration for several local schools. I stayed and watched and they were handing out trophies and things for simply walking up and striking a shield. I know many were young children but it bothers me to see this sort of thing. I tried to teach a bit when I was in tech school as I was given permission to teach up to my level by my Sifu. Many of the guys I tried to teach didn't show up all the time and I would have to grab them from their dorms. I eventually gave up they felt it was to boring learning how to stand and move and throw a proper punch. One was a bit into Boxing and told me kicking was dirty. I had several Boxers ask me while in school to show them some things when they came at me before they could reach me I would simply throw a kick at knee level or whatever and pause. They thought this was dirty fighting I don't know how many times I heard this.

Sometimes we get people who want to learn but they don't want to spar really they shy away from physical discomfort. I have a guy in class that is very robotic and doesn't really put any intent into his strikes or follow up much. I have a teen girl who starts getting upset if someone she is practicing with is sweaty. She told me she wants to learn to defend herself and she doesn't want to touch you or actually hit. I teas her a bit and she will attack but I find it hard to get these types to focus on doing any real training. I sparred the first guy once and didn't hold back much we were wearing head gear with face shields. I hit him several times and he felt I was going overboard. I sometimes go through techniques with him and he thinks im taking it to seriously as I follow up my routine with other strikes and stuff. He thinks im extreme with my use of techniques. He will block a strike in a very robotic slow manner and throw a punch and then stand there. He is ex military and I can't get over this I keep trying to tell him at his level he should be moving faster and following up his attacks. I meet a lot of people like this in martial arts circles. They practice very set routine things with a partner who never really tries to hit them.

[YouKnowWho]

Here is a WC fighter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_x2rqKc&feature=player_embedded

[m1k3]

Here is a WC fighter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_x2rqKc&feature=player_embedded

You bet. It's a shame though that he doesn't train WC. :p

[k gledhill]

You bet. It's a shame though that he doesn't train WC. :p

He is executing a concept we use. It doesn't matter if he knows or not...
Timing.,distance, opportunity ..

Fighting with fists does work.

Sadly many VT have lost chi-sao striking drills for touchy feely
BS...leading to dirty clinch.with waddling hand chasing.

[David Jamieson]

the wc guy is in blue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66JWkFvexdI

[k gledhill]

Other way round to me...if you didn't say who's who and asked which does VT ...the other Guy is.

[Frost]

strange that, the only clips people can find of good wing chun principles in action are from non wing chun guys.........of course of course real chunners dont tape their full contact sparring matches, just their drills

[k gledhill]

strange that, the only clips people can find of good wing chun principles in action are from non wing chun guys.........of course of course real chunners dont tape their full contact sparring matches, just their drills

Kinda leading to my point....one Guy probably does lots of bag/ pad work on impact, timing, distance...etc.....the other deludes himself with touchy geeky hand chasing.

[Phil Redmond]

strange that, the only clips people can find of good wing chun principles in action are from non wing chun guys.........of course of course real chunners dont tape their full contact sparring matches, just their drills
Our TWC principles were used in full contact. They did well for their their very first fights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7NCvZYiDQw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZDkPpWYYoI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyQH4M550M0

Resulted in this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1bSkRY3iWI

[Phil Redmond]

There is also this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS2WUlq8C0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb9-KSC1fPQ

Yeah, I know. Where are the choreographed, textbook demonstration techniques that myself and others do? The bottom line is that we have fighters testing what we do and learning from it.

[m1k3]

There is also this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS2WUlq8C0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb9-KSC1fPQ

Yeah, I know. Where are the choreographed, textbook demonstration techniques that myself and others do? The bottom line is that we have fighters testing what we do and learning from it.

Kudos to you and your people for getting out there and competing and taping it. Other than Alan's folks I can't think of anyone else who has done this. :)

[Golden Arms]

Our TWC principles were used in full contact. They did well for their their very first fights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7NCvZYiDQw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZDkPpWYYoI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyQH4M550M0

Resulted in this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1bSkRY3iWI

Frost,

I am curious what you are going to say now that video has been provided per your request. Are you satisfied or were you here to talk trash?

[Frost]

Frost,

I am curious what you are going to say now that video has been provided per your request. Are you satisfied or were you here to talk trash?

satisfied, not really, i have always given props to phil and to alan orrs guys

Having said that TWC is not the same as what alot of people on this thread practise and it wasnt phils videos they were pointing it is was befort and another MMA fighter who have never trained wing chun in their lives


you happy with that reply?

[YouKnowWho]

Many different combat systems may share the same principle. The most common one may be the "single leg" that's commonly used in all wrestling systems. The WC chain punch is just a principle. Anybody from any style can apply that principle in combat. Even MMA guys can "cross train" chain punches (you can call it "head hunting" if you want to) and put that skill into their toolbox. After you can apply your chain punches principle in combat, where did that concept came from is not important IMO.

[anerlich]

they were pointing it is was befort and another MMA fighter who have never trained wing chun in their lives

The other guy was Lyoto Machida, and some credibility desperados on this forum want to extrapolate his karate influence and Vitor's two second use of something resembling chain punching into validation of WC.

Basically, you can't get there from here.

I too give props to Phil and Alan Orr.

[Faruq]

Hey guys,

I won't lie, I'm getting a little bummed here. I love WC and I know I'll never stop studying it but my outlook is really starting to change on the endgame of what WC can really do. Aside from the MT fights back in Ip Man's day where WC won a few rounds, why is there not a single piece of footage anywhere of WC dominating in a true fight, whether it be competition or street????

On a personal level I'm confident that I can handle my own against the 'average' opponent. I've used it a few times in a few situations but I used the timing I've learned, more than anything in those fights, with balance and a straight punch. Borderline WC at the end of the day. But who's to say that something like boxing couldn't teach timing even more efficiently? Boxer's have d#mn good timing!

It seems that WC and all this theory, that in a lot of respects guys just make up everyday, is just a gentlemen's club for WC only. I've seen and felt good WC dominate other WC but have never, as much as I incessantly look for it, seen a single example of a WC guy doing anything to an actual worthy opponent. There's something inherently wrong there.

WC against an average joe, hands down, you can kick some a$$. But WC against another trained fighter, never seen, ever!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing WC, I love it, but I'm also trying to be realistic in it's effectiveness. No offense to anyone anywhere but the few sparring clips that are even available are laughable to say the least. Two, they're not really fighting and three, even if the WC guy gets an upper hand, it's usually because the opponent is not very good himself.

Some guys will say, "well, competition has rules" or "WC attacks are too deadly" or "the true WC fighters don't boast themselves" or "all you gotta do is rush him when he kicks or do this or that when he punches". Screw all of that!!! There is NOTHING!!! Anywhere!! Video and photos have been available since long before WC was even exposed to the world and there is absolutely nothing!!! I don't know about anyone else here but that really bothers me.

I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too. And that just sucks. I'm tired of demo's, I'm tired of theory, I'm tired of only Chi Sau. I want to see 'proof' that WC can hold it's own in the fighting world!!!

Check out this video of K1 knockouts. Almost every single attack I see in here would break right through a WC guys "structure" and he would get knocked the **** out just like everyone else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrC8XfrL18


Anyone else here feel the same way?


_

What about the guy in this old post:

This is an old clip, and if anyone knows the WC fighter and lineage please post it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXg0FFREzcg&feature=related


I'm pretty sure this is the same guy off some youtube clips and his site.
I can't read the language it's written in so I can't tell you him lineage however he seems to mix in a bit of MMA with his WC/VT not that there is anything wrong with that so long it works for you in my opinion.

www.vingtsun-belgium.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQTBArJYRVE ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2lkGynvAqk&feature=related

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_x2rqKc&feature=player_embedded

I like this clip for many reasons. He has

1. strong "tiger spirit" that trying to eat his opponent alive.
2. good forward leaning that give him forward momentum to run his opponent down.
3. fast and well balanced footwork to finish his job.
4. fast and strong chain punches (head hunting if you prefer to call it) to feed to his opponent's head.

We can all learn a lot from a good clip like this.

Many years ago, a guy wanted to compete in tournament in Taiwan. He had no TCMA teacher, no TCMA training. His friend told him a training method. He tied a coconut with ropes between 2 trees. Everyday he just chessed that coconut with his fists. After 6 months training, he went to his 1st tournament. Nobody could get out of his "head hunting" and he won the 1st place in that tournament.

Style? Who care about style?

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks for the support guys. What I was happy about was that our guys competed in an international amateur event and got first and second place. Joe Marrero knocked out the Japanese San Da Champion. When I up loaded the clip he and someone from his organization told me to take it down. Everyone has to pay to do videos there so his organization had no copyright to the clip.
This made me very happy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aue6bIplPwI
We have a fighter for the upcoming Lei Tai in MD.

[kowloonboy]

What about the guy in this old post:

This is an old clip, and if anyone knows the WC fighter and lineage please post it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXg0FFREzcg&feature=related

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vingtsun-belgium.com%2Fmaitres

I think Yip Man -> Yip Ching -> Him

[anerlich]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_...layer_embedded

I like this clip for many reasons.

That's the Vitor Belfort clip Frost and I were discussing.

Nothing whatever to do with Wing Chun, despite the wishes of (too) many.

[k gledhill]

That's the Vitor Belfort clip Frost and I were discussing.

Nothing whatever to do with Wing Chun, despite the wishes of (too) many.

you need a refresher course in 101 VT ;)

[anerlich]

you need a refresher course in 101 VT

And you need a refresher course in logic and common sense :p

[YouKnowWho]

That's the Vitor Belfort clip Frost and I were discussing.

Nothing whatever to do with Wing Chun, despite the wishes of (too) many.

I know. It's good skill. How to train to obtain that skill is what I'm interested in. One thing for sure is, you can't obtain skill like that by doing solo form only and that's for sure.

Good clip like this will be used for reference over and over. We just don't see good clip like this that often. It puts faith into our heart for certain combat skill.

[k gledhill]

And you need a refresher course in logic and common sense :p

Its one of the first things explained to VT students so they understand what they are trying to achieve. It is logic and common sense. Your uninformed.

[GlennR]

you need a refresher course in 101 VT ;)




You think thats WC?

[anerlich]

Its one of the first things explained to VT students so they understand what they are trying to achieve. It is logic and common sense. Your uninformed.


It may have been the first thing explained to you, but it didn't seem to sink in.
Same as in spelling and grammar class ...

you're uninformed.

[mvbrown21]

Anyone know where this video is from or their lineage. Almost bare knuckle really, with a little flavor of their own. Starts off with basically ground fighting but be patient and you'll see some stuff there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKrAVNnVP-0



Also for all the guys who were curious what there was, at least in America, before all the MMA madness


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCjDwTGjDIY&feature=channel_video_title




____________________

Matt

www.youtube.com/mvbrown25

[m1k3]

Anyone know where this video is from or their lineage. Almost bare knuckle really, with a little flavor of their own. Starts off with basically ground fighting but be patient and you'll see some stuff there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKrAVNnVP-0



Also for all the guys who were curious what there was, at least in America, before all the MMA madness


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCjDwTGjDIY&feature=channel_video_title




____________________

Matt

www.youtube.com/mvbrown25

Actually that first clip was horrible. Even though there was groundfighting it was very clear that none of them knew anything about grappling. The stand up was almost as bad. Run at your opponent with your fists flailing.
:eek:

[k gledhill]

It may have been the first thing explained to you, but it didn't seem to sink in.
Same as in spelling and grammar class ...

you're uninformed.

You're correct, 'you're' uninformed, thanks for the spelling correction at least you can spell better than your understanding of VT ;)


One of the first things you show a vt student is to maintain striking distances so they can deliver ko force in movement. Chi-sao furthers this training, as a striking drill etc...

[k gledhill]

You think thats WC?

you dont ? please explain why it wouldnt be ...then we can see your thinking.

[Graham H]

you dont ? please explain why it wouldnt be ...then we can see your thinking.

Oh don't encourage him Kev!! LOL

G

[k gledhill]

Oh don't encourage him Kev!! LOL

G

Guys want to see tansao punches to make it VT or a pose....

[Frost]

That's the Vitor Belfort clip Frost and I were discussing.

Nothing whatever to do with Wing Chun, despite the wishes of (too) many.

Correct as usual and for the people saying what vitor did is Vt101 how come we cant see any clips of actual wing chun guys doing it i.e. you or your students or Philips guys

Its not hard, phils guys show his teachers system of wing chun in action, but how come we can’t see the principles you talk about in a fight which includes an actual wing chun guy? I mean if its so basic to wing chun would cant you show clips of it

[k gledhill]

Correct as usual and for the people saying what vitor did is Vt101 how come we cant see any clips of actual wing chun guys doing it i.e. you or your students or Philips guys

Its not hard, phils guys show his teachers system of wing chun in action, but how come we can’t see the principles you talk about in a fight which includes an actual wing chun guy? I mean if its so basic to wing chun would cant you show clips of it

I don't teach mma .......but ironically i get mma guys who do come to learn VT for street / bar fighting. I can show you clips of what I consider good VT.

[SavvySavage]

Correct as usual and for the people saying what vitor did is Vt101 how come we cant see any clips of actual wing chun guys doing it i.e. you or your students or Philips guys

Its not hard, phils guys show his teachers system of wing chun in action, but how come we can’t see the principles you talk about in a fight which includes an actual wing chun guy? I mean if its so basic to wing chun would cant you show clips of it

Alan Orr doesn't just do WC so I'm not sure if he's a good example of a WC fighter. He does mma because to compete in mma you have to mostly train mma. Luk Sao...not so much.

A WC fighter, to prove WC purely works in mma, should just be training WC right?

[k gledhill]

Alan Orr doesn't just do WC so I'm not sure if he's a good example of a WC fighter. He does mma because to compete in mma you have to mostly train mma. Luk Sao...not so much.

A WC fighter, to prove WC purely works in mma, should just be training WC right?

MMA by definition requires ground skills for submission options.
VT would require bjj etc...sprawling....its an arena for grapplers who can strike, kick. Gracie's set it up to highlight bjj as the grind game. The first fights had 20 minute guard stalemetes.

[SavvySavage]

MMA by definition requires ground skills for submission options.
VT would require bjj etc...sprawling....its an arena for grapplers who can strike, kick. Gracie's set it up to highlight bjj as the grind game. The first fights had 20 minute guard stalemetes.

Exactly. My point was that traditional WC sensitivity drills wouldn't suffIce to prepare someone for mma. I get it that some people are really connected to their traditional training and teachers. Machida practices karate with his father every morning I hear...but probably spends most of his time wrestling, conditioning, sparring. To call him a karate fighter is a big misleading. He mainly strikes like a kickboxer with the only difference bring that he darts in and out to not take damage. I think the UFC just hams up the karate thing to give him a different feel than a kickboxer and to get more fans from traditional backgrounds.

If a guy mainly trains mma, while spending some time flavoring his training WC, karate, etc, should he really be called a karate fighter or a WC fighter? No, in my opinion.

[YouKnowWho]

I just want to ask a simple question.

It's very nature for a grappler to learn some striking skill. Because that grappler knows that he has to pass the striking range before he can get into the clinching range, and he knows that the striking skill is a must. When he trains the new striking skill, he will not feel that he is disloyal to his original grappling style.

Why doesn't a striker share the same kind of attitude? What's wrong for a striker to learn some grappling skill?

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . What's wrong for a striker to learn some grappling skill?
Nothing, I'm trying to learn all the grappling I can. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I just want to ask a simple question.

It's very nature for a grappler to learn some striking skill. Because that grappler knows that he has to pass the striking range before he can get into the clinching range, and he knows that the striking skill is a must. When he trains the new striking skill, he will not feel that he is disloyal to his original grappling style.

Why doesn't a striker share the same kind of attitude? What's wrong for a striker to learn some grappling skill?

Some strikers believe that they can end it with strikes before it gets to grappling, no matter how many times it is shown to NOT be the case.

[YouKnowWho]

Some strikers believe that they can end it with strikes before it gets to grappling, no matter how many times it is shown to NOT be the case.

This turn into an old Chinese "Spear and Sheld" contridiction. If a

- grappler believes that he can take down anybody who lives on this planet.
- striker also believes that he can knock down anyboy who lives on earth.

What will happen when that great grappler and great striker finally meet?

IMO, there is no shame for Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson to learn some grappling skill. Nobody will say that they are dis-graceful to the boxing community. They may even be able to learn "single leg" and "double legs" within 2 hours. How hard can that be?

[sanjuro_ronin]

This turn into an old Chinese "Spear and Sheld" contridiction. If a

- grappler believes that he can take down anybody who lives on this planet.
- striker also believes that he can knock down anyboy who lives on earth.

What will happen when that great grappler and great striker finally meet?

IMO, there is no shame for Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson to learn some grappling skill. Nobody will say that they are dis-graceful to the boxing community. They may even be able to learn "single leg" and "double legs" within 2 hours. How hard can that be?

Old dogs, new tricks, you know how it works.
Also, the vast majority that think they're "too deadly" strikes can stop anyone are the ones that can't strike their way out of a paper bag.
Even Elite strikers know that is not the case.

[YouKnowWho]

strikes can stop anyone ...
In my personal experience, it's much easier to take someone down than to knock someone down. When your opponent is on the ground, you can still kill him by your powerful punch since he is not going anywhere.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In my personal experience, it's much easier to take someone down than to knock someone down. When your opponent is on the ground, you can still kill him by your powerful punch since he is not going anywhere.

Absolutely.
Now, it has been MY PERSONAL experience that, on the "street", it is far easier to KO someone than compared to the ring, for obvious reasons and it MAY BE that for some, with limited time VS trained fighters and more time VS "mediocre" opponents, that their experience tells them that "have the goods" and they MAY feel "just fine".

[YouKnowWho]

Absolutely.
Now, it has been MY PERSONAL experience that, on the "street", it is far easier to KO someone than compared to the ring, for obvious reasons and it MAY BE that for some, with limited time VS trained fighters and more time VS "mediocre" opponents, that their experience tells them that "have the goods" and they MAY feel "just fine".

In street fight, peole may run toward you and try to knock your head off. It may cause a perfect "head on collusion" that your opponent just run into your punch. Once I sparred a boxer who weight 230 lb. He charged in so hard that he ran into my kick and broke his own ribs. The most funny thing that happened in my life was a wrestler gave me a "bear hug" so hard that he squeezed mybody into his chest and broke his own ribs (I swear to God that both are true stories). :) Things like this will never happen in the ring as far as I remember.

[Frost]

Alan Orr doesn't just do WC so I'm not sure if he's a good example of a WC fighter. He does mma because to compete in mma you have to mostly train mma. Luk Sao...not so much.

A WC fighter, to prove WC purely works in mma, should just be training WC right?

umm where did i post it had to be pure wing chun guy, i said why cant we see a wing chun trained guy showing the wing chun principles people are talking about in non wing chun guys

training wrestling and BJJ shouldnt alter his striking principles that much should it?

and forgive me if im wrong but alans guys and phillips guys are not from the same lineage as most people who are posting these claimes,

[Frost]

MMA by definition requires ground skills for submission options.
VT would require bjj etc...sprawling....its an arena for grapplers who can strike, kick. Gracie's set it up to highlight bjj as the grind game. The first fights had 20 minute guard stalemetes.

nope mma requires a striker to know how to stay on his feet, and even adding wrestling and bjj shouldnt change his stand up game eyond all recognition should it...it doesnt for thai guys


of course the gracies set up the ufc for themselves, they wanted the fights to start standing in a big a$$ cage, with all strikes apart from eye pokes and fish hooks allowed and a nice padded mat for there opponents to fall on :rolleyes:

and the early ufcs were straight up wins for royce in a matter of minutes until he came up against other grapplers
first round
ufc 2
Royce Gracie vs. Minoki Ichihara
Gracie wins by Submission (Collar Choke), which was mistakenly called an armbar at 5:08.
quarters
Royce Gracie vs. Jason DeLucia
Gracie wins by Submission (Armlock) at 1:07.
semi
Royce Gracie vs. Remco Pardoel
Gracie wins by Submission (Lapel Choke) at 1:31.

final
Royce Gracie vs. Patrick Smith
Gracie wins by Submission (Strikes) at 1:17 to win UFC 2.

4 fights in under 9 minutes

UFC1
3 Royce Gracie vs. Art Jimmerson Gracie wins by submission (position) 2:18.
Royce Gracie vs. Ken Shamrock Gracie wins by submission (gi choke) 0:57
Royce Gracie vs. Gerard Gordeau Gracie wins by submission (rear naked choke) 1:44

3 fights under 6 minutes...but dont facts come in the way of your beliefs

[jesper]

btw just rediscovred this old clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naAa8x71gBM&feature=related

and here we have some russians
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UeSt42EjaQ&feature=related

[k gledhill]

nope mma requires a striker to know how to stay on his feet, and even adding wrestling and bjj shouldnt change his stand up game eyond all recognition should it...it doesnt for thai guys


of course the gracies set up the ufc for themselves, they wanted the fights to start standing in a big a$$ cage, with all strikes apart from eye pokes and fish hooks allowed and a nice padded mat for there opponents to fall on :rolleyes:

and the early ufcs were straight up wins for royce in a matter of minutes until he came up against other grapplers
first round
ufc 2
Royce Gracie vs. Minoki Ichihara
Gracie wins by Submission (Collar Choke), which was mistakenly called an armbar at 5:08.
quarters
Royce Gracie vs. Jason DeLucia
Gracie wins by Submission (Armlock) at 1:07.
semi
Royce Gracie vs. Remco Pardoel
Gracie wins by Submission (Lapel Choke) at 1:31.

final
Royce Gracie vs. Patrick Smith
Gracie wins by Submission (Strikes) at 1:17 to win UFC 2.

4 fights in under 9 minutes

UFC1
3 Royce Gracie vs. Art Jimmerson Gracie wins by submission (position) 2:18.
Royce Gracie vs. Ken Shamrock Gracie wins by submission (gi choke) 0:57
Royce Gracie vs. Gerard Gordeau Gracie wins by submission (rear naked choke) 1:44

3 fights under 6 minutes...but dont facts come in the way of your beliefs


The UFC was originally started by Art Davie, an advertising executive, and Rorion Gracie, a noted master of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. The goal was to stage a tournament featuring fighters of all disciplines in order to determine who was truly the best. Oh look there's Royce lets ask him if hes interested....;)

As for strikers staying on feet , I said options for UFC [ BJJ ] not prime directive.

As for the 'list' , you need to drink less coffee :D:D:D people know what I mean when I say 20 minutes in a guard.

[anerlich]

IMO, there is no shame for Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson to learn some grappling skill. Nobody will say that they are dis-graceful to the boxing community. They may even be able to learn "single leg" and "double legs" within 2 hours. How hard can that be?

You might be able to develop a low single that will work against non-grapplers in 2 hours. It takes most people a LOT longer to learn a decent double leg.

You might as well say a grappler could learn to fight effectively with Wing Chun in a couple of lessons.

[anerlich]

Alan Orr doesn't just do WC so I'm not sure if he's a good example of a WC fighter. He does mma because to compete in mma you have to mostly train mma. Luk Sao...not so much.

He claims to do mostly WC, with modifications and additions essential to operate in MMA. If you look at his videos he explains the base (CSLWC) of what he does very well.

[YouKnowWho]

You might be able to develop a low single that will work against non-grapplers in 2 hours. It takes most people a LOT longer to learn a decent double leg.

You might as well say a grappler could learn to fight effectively with Wing Chun in a couple of lessons.

It's easier to learn a single skill. It's much harder to learn a complete system. It depends on what "major" that you have.

[Frost]

The UFC was originally started by Art Davie, an advertising executive, and Rorion Gracie, a noted master of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. The goal was to stage a tournament featuring fighters of all disciplines in order to determine who was truly the best. Oh look there's Royce lets ask him if hes interested....;)

As for strikers staying on feet , I said options for UFC [ BJJ ] not prime directive.

As for the 'list' , you need to drink less coffee :D:D:D people know what I mean when I say 20 minutes in a guard.

I know who started it, that doesnt matter please list how they fixed it to make it easier for BJJ guys to win, the padded mats, the big cage the vurtually unlimited striking format...please do tell how it was set up to show BJJs superiority

STaying on the feet doesnt change your stirking plateform so much you cant display wing chun anymore does it?

Yep people know what you mean you were infereing it was a snooze fest and not applicable to real self defence right? i just wanted to point out that you were wrong thats all :)

[k gledhill]

I know who started it, that doesnt matter please list how they fixed it to make it easier for BJJ guys to win, the padded mats, the big cage the vurtually unlimited striking format...please do tell how it was set up to show BJJs superiority

STaying on the feet doesnt change your stirking plateform so much you cant display wing chun anymore does it?

Yep people know what you mean you were infereing it was a snooze fest and not applicable to real self defence right? i just wanted to point out that you were wrong thats all :)

It was set up [ufc] to show that with the ground / submission allowed, a lot of striking [ the boxer with one glove] and other un-mma would find that when they got taken down they would have a hard time with no ground game.
You can try to argue snooze fest, but even bjj guys will be the first to say they wont use it in real fights going into guards.

we can agree to disagree...:D

[Frost]

It was set up [ufc] to show that with the ground / submission allowed, a lot of striking [ the boxer with one glove] and other un-mma would find that when they got taken down they would have a hard time with no ground game.
You can try to argue snooze fest, but even bjj guys will be the first to say they wont use it in real fights going into guards.

we can agree to disagree...:D
it was set up to see which style worked best in a virtually no rules enviroment...not there fault the grapplers won everything in the early days


at least three of gracies subs were not from the guard, all his fights ended very quickly and he managed to look like his style in action :)

in real fights bjj guys would do what royce did takedown to mount and ground and pound, and it they somehow end up on their back they can still win

so again the question is where are the wing chun guys using wing chun as their main stand up art and looking like wing chun (not talking about phil or alan orrs guys here but guys from lineages that YOU see as wing chun)

[Dragonzbane76]

It was set up [ufc] to show that with the ground / submission allowed, a lot of striking [ the boxer with one glove] and other un-mma would find that when they got taken down they would have a hard time with no ground game.

how can it be "set up" when the format starts at a stand up????? Striker has there chance, sorry they suck at defense against take downs.

[jesper]

the cracies had the advantage in the first few matches because none of their opponents new how to fight grablers. not cracies fault people came unprepared

[k gledhill]

it was set up to see which style worked best in a virtually no rules enviroment...not there fault the grapplers won everything in the early days


at least three of gracies subs were not from the guard, all his fights ended very quickly and he managed to look like his style in action :)

in real fights bjj guys would do what royce did takedown to mount and ground and pound, and it they somehow end up on their back they can still win

so again the question is where are the wing chun guys using wing chun as their main stand up art and looking like wing chun (not talking about phil or alan orrs guys here but guys from lineages that YOU see as wing chun)

You sound naive, "it was set up to see which style worked best...." YEAH braniac ! :D by a guy who knew BJJ would give everyone primarily doing stand up a hard time in a environment that suited its ability to go beyond a clinch ....duh! And of course it looked like his style because......set up for bjj :D:D:D

VT has its place Frost, horses for courses. Sadly though many guys are being shown to have inferior methods at a most basic level. I have my answers to that. The ring has shown that to many. Answer ? regroup and huddle :D I think guys will see what required of them to fight with impact, distance, timing...not waddling hand chasing that is simply a game of air tag. When I say I see VT in the ring often it is mechanics, concepts of attacking entry mobility. Mobility being a key if not primary idea that many VT have lost to a back and forth in a straight line fiasco. Basic boxing , MT already have mobility I teach in my system but with VT ideas. I cant say this for others. And as I mentioned before I dont teach MMA so you have to cross examine other guys :D:D:D you sound like lawyers I have had to handle in court for fights...;)

[k gledhill]

the cracies had the advantage in the first few matches because none of their opponents new how to fight grablers. not cracies fault people came unprepared
exactly...point of the early fights...random to ground. Who knew ?:D Gracies did ;)

[k gledhill]

how can it be "set up" when the format starts at a stand up????? Striker has there chance, sorry they suck at defense against take downs.

because it can end in ? no prizes , take your time......:D

how often do you see a clinch in stand up, boxing, MT,VT, go to submission wrestling before ufc ?

[JamesC]

because it can end in ? no prizes , take your time......:D

how often do you see a clinch in stand up, boxing, MT,VT, go to submission wrestling before ufc ?

So what you're saying is that it is unfair that submission grappling is allowed?

[k gledhill]

So what you're saying is that it is unfair that submission grappling is allowed?

NO !! :D its that guys didnt have black belt standard BJJ [years of experience] when they walked into the cage. They had strong ability but who knew BJJ then ?
Again a 'marketing' $ spinning idea...whats so hard to see? Now its multi million$ closest thing to gladiators, but give it time !:D tigers will pop out of floors soon.

[JamesC]

NO !! :D its that guys didnt have black belt standard BJJ [years of experience] when they walked into the cage. They had strong ability but who knew BJJ then ?
Again a 'marketing' $ spinning idea...whats so hard to see? Now its multi million$ closest thing to gladiators, but give it time !:D tigers will pop out of floors soon.

I don't really see what the problem is. The competition is still a closer analog to actual combat than any other combat sports before it. It is a culmination of all the other combat sports.

Sure, it is still a sport, but it is a sport that is closer to real combat than any that came before it.

[k gledhill]

I don't really see what the problem is. The competition is still a closer analog to actual combat than any other combat sports before it. It is a culmination of all the other combat sports.

Sure, it is still a sport, but it is a sport that is closer to real combat than any that came before it.

Your idea of reality? Add alchohol and multiple assailants. Then go into a guard...
Ill watch and visit in hspital

[JamesC]

Your idea of reality? Add alchohol and multiple assailants. Then go into a guard...
Ill watch and visit in hspital

My idea of reality comes from my profession, which is law enforcement.

How about yours?

[JamesC]

Your idea of reality? Add alchohol and multiple assailants. Then go into a guard...
Ill watch and visit in hspital

This is an idiotic statement. So just because there is the possibility of multiple assailants and alcohol, you shouldn't know how to defend yourself on the ground?

[k gledhill]

My idea of reality comes from my profession, which is law enforcement.

How about yours?

Over 10 years Bouncing and security bars, nightclub, personal security, firearms instructor, practical pistol competitions, teaching airmarshals close quarter fighting...
25 years VT and other ma's.
police loved me because they came after the event.

How many fights have you been in during police work...

[YouKnowWho]

This is an idiotic statement. So just because there is the possibility of multiple assailants and alcohol, you shouldn't know how to defend yourself on the ground?

People's mind will change through time. They may think that:

1st - the ground game is not for them.
2nd - it doesn't hurt to try.
3rd - it's fun and they want it.

There will be no more argument after that.

[k gledhill]

This is an idiotic statement. So just because there is the possibility of multiple assailants and alcohol, you shouldn't know how to defend yourself on the ground?

I never said that....yes it would be very stupid to imply that.

[JamesC]

I work in a jail. So, I dunno, a few hundred fights? 1v1, 1v2, 2v1, 2v2, etc.

The fights have been with weapons, and without. I've had to fight people standing up, and i've had to fight people on the ground. I've been taken to the ground and i've had to take them down. I've fought against drunks too. Not to mention murderers, high ranking members of gangs such as the Texas Syndicate, etc.

Although our policy has since changed to a "friendlier" method of controlling detainees, it used to be a matter of one of you walks out of the cell while the other is dragged out.

Explain to me how limiting a rule set to force you to fight only standing up is more realistic than allowing grappling and throwing. Please.

[uki]

Hey guys,

I won't lie, I'm getting a little bummed here. I love WC and I know I'll never stop studying it but my outlook is really starting to change on the endgame of what WC can really do. Aside from the MT fights back in Ip Man's day where WC won a few rounds, why is there not a single piece of footage anywhere of WC dominating in a true fight, whether it be competition or street????

On a personal level I'm confident that I can handle my own against the 'average' opponent. I've used it a few times in a few situations but I used the timing I've learned, more than anything in those fights, with balance and a straight punch. Borderline WC at the end of the day. But who's to say that something like boxing couldn't teach timing even more efficiently? Boxer's have d#mn good timing!

It seems that WC and all this theory, that in a lot of respects guys just make up everyday, is just a gentlemen's club for WC only. I've seen and felt good WC dominate other WC but have never, as much as I incessantly look for it, seen a single example of a WC guy doing anything to an actual worthy opponent. There's something inherently wrong there.

WC against an average joe, hands down, you can kick some a$$. But WC against another trained fighter, never seen, ever!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing WC, I love it, but I'm also trying to be realistic in it's effectiveness. No offense to anyone anywhere but the few sparring clips that are even available are laughable to say the least. Two, they're not really fighting and three, even if the WC guy gets an upper hand, it's usually because the opponent is not very good himself.

Some guys will say, "well, competition has rules" or "WC attacks are too deadly" or "the true WC fighters don't boast themselves" or "all you gotta do is rush him when he kicks or do this or that when he punches". Screw all of that!!! There is NOTHING!!! Anywhere!! Video and photos have been available since long before WC was even exposed to the world and there is absolutely nothing!!! I don't know about anyone else here but that really bothers me.

I think WC is effective as self-defense and will bode reasonably well against the average attacker but I'm seriously getting depressed in the fact that WC isn't very effective against another skilled opponent, unless that opponent happens to practice WC too. And that just sucks. I'm tired of demo's, I'm tired of theory, I'm tired of only Chi Sau. I want to see 'proof' that WC can hold it's own in the fighting world!!!

Check out this video of K1 knockouts. Almost every single attack I see in here would break right through a WC guys "structure" and he would get knocked the **** out just like everyone else!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrC8XfrL18


Anyone else here feel the same way?


_although the ages, times, faces, people, and circumstances change, the principle remains the same - the ancient masters(grandmaster/wise one/bodhisattva/christ incarnate/a buddha/the dragon warrior/blah/blah/etc) were simply aware to the nature of all things(discerning the energies/spirits) in the modern age here, dis-traction(losing your grip) rules the world... people are distracted from the true nature of themselves via worldy things - naturally a balance between wordly and spiritual must be maintained in order to live here and yet remain unaffected by the suffering around us... in this manner you become an inspiration to others whom are struggling in their path - by becoming a living example, you instigate change... not all flowers bloom at the same time... the circumstances will align perfectly in time. timing is the key to a perfect pounce - perhaps the masters are simply waiting for the opportune moment... bigger splashes make bigger ripples.

be the change you want to see in the world. :)

[k gledhill]

I work in a jail. So, I dunno, a few hundred fights? 1v1, 1v2, 2v1, 2v2, etc.

The fights have been with weapons, and without. I've had to fight people standing up, and i've had to fight people on the ground. I've been taken to the ground and i've had to take them down. I've fought against drunks too. Not to mention murderers, high ranking members of gangs such as the Texas Syndicate, etc.

Although our policy has since changed to a "friendlier" method of controlling detainees, it used to be a matter of one of you walks out of the cell while the other is dragged out.

Explain to me how limiting a rule set to force you to fight only standing up is more realistic than allowing grappling and throwing. Please.

I carry scars from a 'murderer' but that's another story:D not in jail either, but I digress :D, fought gangs of guys, drunk not so drunk, not drunk, 1on 2, 1on 3 more, gang fights in streets, bottles, knives, guns...involved in court cases, some involving guys cut up with knives from guys on my side of the street battle, I cant say too much more because it gets weird..., it gets crazy out there. In any fight that I might go down in I would be kicked asap by as many involved, glassed smashed bottles in face etc...
In my line of 'work' there are no 'friendlier' methods that constrain you as it would, just what works and opportunity, witnesses or not, witnesses means possibly 1-2 years inside so 'friendlier' methods required just so I dont meet YOU inside :D. Going to the ground is because I had no choice in the matter rather than design. I did judo and used it several times in fights working to good effect also sparring in class, but knew to get up rather than stay to choke out, or an arm bar taught to yellow belts in 3rd week of training.
Look Im not saying anything that your implying about ground at all, I was pointing out that the UFC was started by guys aware that there was no ground / mma fighting. And took full advantage to set themselves up as they have, Kudos to them wonderful.

VT also has an alias, "Gangster fist" .

[JamesC]

I carry scars from a 'murderer' but that's another story:D not in jail either, but I digress :D, fought gangs of guys, drunk not so drunk, not drunk, 1on 2, 1on 3 more, gang fights in streets, bottles, knives, guns...involved in court cases, some involving guys cut up with knives from guys on my side of the street battle, I cant say too much more because it gets weird..., it gets crazy out there. In any fight that I might go down in I would be kicked asap by as many involved, glassed smashed bottles in face etc...
In my line of 'work' there are no 'friendlier' methods that constrain you as it would, just what works and opportunity, witnesses or not, witnesses means possibly 1-2 years inside so 'friendlier' methods required just so I dont meet YOU inside :D. Going to the ground is because I had no choice in the matter rather than design. I did judo and used it several times in fights working to good effect also sparring in class, but knew to get up rather than stay to choke out, or an arm bar taught to yellow belts in 3rd week of training.
Look Im not saying anything that your implying about ground at all, I was pointing out that the UFC was started by guys aware that there was no ground / mma fighting. And took full advantage to set themselves up as they have, Kudos to them wonderful.

Heh, we should trade stories sometime. I have one that ranks pretty high on the "weirdness" scale about a guy I had to choke out once. The conditions were...odd...lol

[k gledhill]

Heh, we should trade stories sometime. I have one that ranks pretty high on the "weirdness" scale about a guy I had to choke out once. The conditions were...odd...lol

As soon as you mentioned 'prison' :D i knew you would :D:D

[Frost]

You sound naive, "it was set up to see which style worked best...." YEAH braniac ! :D by a guy who knew BJJ would give everyone primarily doing stand up a hard time in a environment that suited its ability to go beyond a clinch ....duh! And of course it looked like his style because......set up for bjj :D:D:D

VT has its place Frost, horses for courses. Sadly though many guys are being shown to have inferior methods at a most basic level. I have my answers to that. The ring has shown that to many. Answer ? regroup and huddle :D I think guys will see what required of them to fight with impact, distance, timing...not waddling hand chasing that is simply a game of air tag. When I say I see VT in the ring often it is mechanics, concepts of attacking entry mobility. Mobility being a key if not primary idea that many VT have lost to a back and forth in a straight line fiasco. Basic boxing , MT already have mobility I teach in my system but with VT ideas. I cant say this for others. And as I mentioned before I dont teach MMA so you have to cross examine other guys :D:D:D you sound like lawyers I have had to handle in court for fights...;)


so short answer believe me because i teach the real thing but i cant show it in action in even controlled classroom sparring...and im naive

so explain how it was set up for BJJ, you like to make nice grand sweeping statements but never back anything up orther than with a wink and a grin,

[Frost]

NO !! :D its that guys didnt have black belt standard BJJ [years of experience] when they walked into the cage. They had strong ability but who knew BJJ then ?
Again a 'marketing' $ spinning idea...whats so hard to see? Now its multi million$ closest thing to gladiators, but give it time !:D tigers will pop out of floors soon.

how it it marketing to allow all ranges, or are you saying that BJJ is superior to all standup that its unfair to allow the clinch and the ground in a fight, must suck on the actial street when you fight then...i mean what do you do beg them not to clinch and take it to the ground or get them to sign an agreement to keep it standing before you start

[k gledhill]

so short answer believe me because i teach the real thing but i cant show it in action in even controlled classroom sparring...and im naive

so explain how it was set up for BJJ, you like to make nice grand sweeping statements but never back anything up orther than with a wink and a grin,

No thats your twist on words, i know what I can do regardless of acceptance from you ;):D . If you havent picked up the ufc / marketing bjj thing by now then no0 further explanations will help . You believe what you want.

[k gledhill]

how it it marketing to allow all ranges, or are you saying that BJJ is superior to all standup that its unfair to allow the clinch and the ground in a fight, must suck on the actial street when you fight then...i mean what do you do beg them not to clinch and take it to the ground or get them to sign an agreement to keep it standing before you start

read the previous post...;):D been in a fight outside the gym lately ?

[Frost]

read the previous post...;):D been in a fight outside the gym lately ?

why have you :)

oh wait yes you have, but again no proof, thats why the internet is so great if you teach and have guys that spar you can post it to show what you mean.....cant you.....i mean its easy especially for a full time teacher like you :D

[Frost]

No thats your twist on words, i know what I can do regardless of acceptance from you ;):D . If you havent picked up the ufc / marketing bjj thing by now then no0 further explanations will help . You believe what you want.

not twisting words asking for specific reasons why and how it was set up to aid BJJ guys, simple question, was it the rules, equip used, fighters invited, venue...

i mean you must have a reason other than saying because it allowed shock horror grappling to take place right?

thats like me saying it was set up to aid strikers because it started standing and allowed nearly unlimited stirkes...:)

[k gledhill]

why have you :)

oh wait yes you have, but again no proof, thats why the internet is so great if you teach and have guys that spar you can post it to show what you mean.....cant you.....i mean its easy especially for a full time teacher like you :D

So that's a no. One day maybe when I remember to video stuff
Until then.....

[k gledhill]

not twisting words asking for specific reasons why and how it was set up to aid BJJ guys, simple question, was it the rules, equip used, fighters invited, venue...

i mean you must have a reason other than saying because it allowed shock horror grappling to take place right?

thats like me saying it was set up to aid strikers because it started standing and allowed nearly unlimited stirkes...:)

Obtuse comes to mind... it was created by a Gracie.

[Frost]

Obtuse comes to mind... it was created by a Gracie.

so thats your whole arguement........seriously thats all you can come up with....:rolleyes:

nice to see you put some thought into it

[k gledhill]

so thats your whole arguement........seriously thats all you can come up with....:rolleyes:

nice to see you put some thought into it


Who's arguing ? oh yeah YOU. I tried to give you a raison d'etre for the UFC , take it or leave it I'm not trying to convert you :D

[Frost]

Who's arguing ? oh yeah YOU. I tried to give you a raison d'etre for the UFC , take it or leave it I'm not trying to convert you :D

you stated something but then couldnt back it up...but ill leave it there and simply ask you a question,

you are from the WSL lineage through philip bayer correct, thats how you judge clips when you see people fighting and say it is or it not wing chun...would that be correct to say?

Now on this thread you have said at least once the wing chun guys opponent looked more wing chun like than the chunner so could you post some clips of your students or bayers in action so we can see what you mean?

I know you dont train your guys for MMA but WSL was known for testing his skills in fights and comps, and since you are all so proud to be associated with him surely some of his students carry on that tradition (i know you fight ond test yourself on the street but what about the rest of the association? your students?)

[k gledhill]

you stated something but then couldnt back it up...but ill leave it there and simply ask you a question,

you are from the WSL lineage through philip bayer correct, thats how you judge clips when you see people fighting and say it is or it not wing chun...would that be correct to say?

Now on this thread you have said at least once the wing chun guys opponent looked more wing chun like than the chunner so could you post some clips of your students or bayers in action so we can see what you mean?

I know you dont train your guys for MMA but WSL was known for testing his skills in fights and comps, and since you are all so proud to be associated with him surely some of his students carry on that tradition (i know you fight ond test yourself on the street but what about the rest of the association? your students?)

I have posted clips, but guys see what they want, sorry. What did I state that I couldnt back up ?
If I see mechanics in a guy then whats wrong with saying so ? it may not be 100% what we are doing but its fighting with fists and motion, timing, balance, etc...not a style.

Who's 'we' ? you your mates, I dont care if YOU believe me or not. I reckon you will just perpetuate your agenda, whatever that is.

Like you said I have tested my thing often and its strong. If you don't think my punch will break a jaw, and need a clip to prove it, sorry.

[Frost]

i have posted clips, but guys see what they want, sorry. What did I state that I couldnt back up ?

what sparring full contact clips...not drills? can you tell me which threads these are on :)

you stated the ufc was set upin the Gracies favour...but cant back this up by saying how other than they had a hand in its creation

[k gledhill]

what sparring full contact clips...not drills? can you tell me which threads these are on :)

you stated the ufc was set upin the Gracies favour...but cant back this up by saying how other than they had a hand in its creation

Drills, no full contact sorry, there are some with gloves but its pretty much exactly the same, but with face masks and gloves.

Wait.... you have the info that Gracie started the UFC , started the UFC , started the UFC, and dont see the connection yet :D

You're kidding me....a fight program that allows ground and submission started by guys with years of experience. Then asking random guys to come in and strike anyway that doesnt matter to them becasue they have BJJ in a ring with time and space to work the guard....you dont see that ?

[Frost]

Drills, no full contact sorry, there are some with gloves but its pretty much exactly the same, but with face masks and gloves.

Wait.... you have the info that Gracie started the UFC , started the UFC , started the UFC, and dont see the connection yet :D

You're kidding me....a fight program that allows ground and submission started by guys with years of experience. Then asking random guys to come in and strike anyway that doesnt matter to them becasue they have BJJ in a ring with time and space to work the guard....you dont see that ?

it also allows striking with near unlimited rules, only rules were no eye shots, it even allowed deadly groin shots...........they invited strikers as well not just random ones they invited a lot of good fighters, the likes of ernesto hoost, karelin etc were all asked, the ring was somthing like 30 feet plenty of room for strikers to run away

so your basic arguement is that because it allowed stand up clinch and ground it was biased against strikers and unfair to them :rolleyes:

[goju]

what sparring full contact clips...not drills? can you tell me which threads these are on :)

you stated the ufc was set upin the Gracies favour...but cant back this up by saying how other than they had a hand in its creation

Oh come on man hes right.You mean to tell me they couldn't have found better grapplers and strikers at that time? The fact they avoided guys like dolman proves it. It was slanted in their favor so they could market their product and then leave once they hooked enough people just as Frank Shamrock said.

Granted it doesn't take away that they proved something .That something being that if you don't have a ground game your screwed.But when ones market a product by showing its effectiveness against against a similar product the idea is to test it against a product that is highly regarded not one that is of inferior quality.

And the Gracies intentionally did the latter. It looked like a tough man competition when instead they could have intentionally tried to rope in better opponents to genuinely test their product to its fullest.

[Frost]

Oh come on man hes right.You mean to tell me they couldn't have found better grapplers and strikers at that time? The fact they avoided guys like dolman proves it. It was slanted in their favor so they could market their product and then leave once they hooked enough people just as Frank Shamrock said.

Granted it doesn't take away that they proved something .That something being that if you don't have a ground game your screwed.But when ones market a product by showing its effectiveness against against a similar product the idea is to test it against a product that is highly regarded not one that is of inferior quality.

And the Gracies intentionally did the latter. It looked like a tough man competition when instead they could have intentionally tried to rope in better opponents to genuinely test their product to its fullest.

oh please doleman again....they are on record as having asked ernesto hoost to take part, and karelin, neither accepted and you think they were scared of doleman? They invited the greasted wrestler of all time and the greatest thai guy around, fact is they asked lots of guys, not too many wanted to fight no rules

[k gledhill]

Nobody is taking away what they proved

.

[GlennR]

you dont ? please explain why it wouldnt be ...then we can see your thinking.

Structure, footwork, shoulder turning and punches.

I see a guy (a very good guy by the way) coming forward with straight punches, thats it.

Doesnt make it WC

[GlennR]

Guys want to see tansao punches to make it VT or a pose....



No, i want to see WC structure in their delivery. I see that in Alan Orrs guys.

Thats what defines a WC fighter to me.

[goju]

oh please doleman again....they are on record as having asked ernesto hoost to take part, and karelin, neither accepted and you think they were scared of doleman? They invited the greasted wrestler of all time and the greatest thai guy around, fact is they asked lots of guys, not too many wanted to fight no rules

Do we have any evidence of this besides what came out of the gracies mouths? They are known for their tall tales after all

[k gledhill]

Structure, footwork, shoulder turning and punches.

I see a guy (a very good guy by the way) coming forward with straight punches, thats it.

Doesnt make it WC

Okay, what would ?

[k gledhill]

No, i want to see WC structure in their delivery. I see that in Alan Orrs guys.

Thats what defines a WC fighter to me.

So you like A Orr....I don't see VT personally

[GlennR]

Okay, what would ?

As i said, a WC strucure in the delivery

So my question would be to you what makes you think it is WC?

[k gledhill]

As i said, a WC strucure in the delivery

So my question would be to you what makes you think it is WC?

Do you train VT?

[GlennR]

Do you train VT?


Not so much anymore.... i box and MT

But yep im a WCer, started in 1990

[k gledhill]

Not so much anymore.... i box and MT

But yep im a WCer, started in 1990

What way of VT?

[GlennR]

What way of VT?

i assume you mean lineage?

[k gledhill]

i assume you mean lineage?

What way, yes.

[GlennR]

What way, yes.

I initially started with a TST line then, due to moving, tripped over a mainland style which would be the bulk of my training

Moved back to where i am now and went and trained with the TST guys i started with.
Have cross trained with WSL &WCheung guys on the way.

Dabbled in Pak Mei (nice style) and have been MTing the last 3 years with crossover boxing training whilst still keeping my finger in WC.

[Frost]

Do we have any evidence of this besides what came out of the gracies mouths? They are known for their tall tales after all

yep the co promotor art said it in several interviews, and there are some quotes on the net from karlins management saying he was invited but declined
, i remember reading that years ago am not looking for them now though lol

The co promoter was in it to make money (as were the investors) he wanted the best guys to fight in order to get rickson invloved, he knew he could make bigger sales and more money the more talent involved, of course realistically was a top 10 boxer, thai boxer, or wrestler going to take part in a new no holds barred event where they could get seriously injured...probably not but then the best BJJ guys werent fighting either, rickson, sperry were all better grapplers and fighters than royce. SO in essance it was second best against second best.

the first ufc had the following
art whats his name the IBC Americas Light Heavyweight boxing champ champ. ……

Gerard Gordeau, the world heavyweight champion full contact savate and european heavyweight kickboxing champ

Zane Frasier the WKF Super Heavyweight Kenpo Karate champion.

future UFC Hall of Fame member Ken Shamrock.

Kevin Rozier, the WKA and ISKA Super Heavyweight kickboxing champion.

oh and the fat sumo guy

some good strikers (well for the time) and a grappler or to, the boxer tried to pull out when he heard the rules only to get a 20 thousand dollar bonus to fight, his corner tried to throw in the towel as soon as the fight started but it got cought on the fence lol

[k gledhill]

i assume you mean lineage?


I initially started with a TST line then, due to moving, tripped over a mainland style which would be the bulk of my training

Moved back to where i am now and went and trained with the TST guys i started with.
Have cross trained with WSL &WCheung guys on the way.

Dabbled in Pak Mei (nice style) and have been MTing the last 3 years with crossover boxing training whilst still keeping my finger in WC.

Just wondering about your not seeing a attacking intent with attacking entry as VT or not. Rough as it is if you asked a VT student to hit / touch your jaw as you tried to move away evading contact you would see a basic idea. Distance to jaw, force to jaw maintained with footwork to channel leg strength to hips- elbows- fists/ forearms. IMO many lineages lack enough knowledge of whole footwork available to them in the system. A basic thing seen in all fights freedom of movement with strategic reasons.
Boxers learn this MT....a lot of VT seem to only get shown. Back and forth and angling / turning to redirect force rather than move to lines of incoming force from no contact. A thing sticking feeling misleeds many into following.

[David Jamieson]

Other way round to me...if you didn't say who's who and asked which does VT ...the other Guy is.

the other guy is inconsequential. He is not a wc prac and Joel Sutton is (the guy in blue)

wc has not fronted a fighter with any great success in any modern martial arts venue. In fact NO traditional practitioner has succeeded in the evolved modern sports of H2H.

so, if you want that, then it is really up to YOU (whoever) to be that.

so long as wc stays in a closed house and focuses only on WC is as long as they will continue to not be able to front a capable fighter.

[GlennR]

Just wondering about your not seeing a attacking intent with attacking entry as VT or not. Rough as it is if you asked a VT student to hit / touch your jaw as you tried to move away evading contact you would see a basic idea. Distance to jaw, force to jaw maintained with footwork to channel leg strength to hips- elbows- fists/ forearms. IMO many lineages lack enough knowledge of whole footwork available to them in the system. A basic thing seen in all fights freedom of movement with strategic reasons.
Boxers learn this MT....a lot of VT seem to only get shown. Back and forth and angling / turning to redirect force rather than move to lines of incoming force from no contact. A thing sticking feeling misleeds many into following.



Sure, i take your point, but as you said others styles learn this so its not a WC Exclusive technique to blast through ,like the guy in the clip.

I see in that video a couple of things WCish.... straight punches coming forward one after the other... but to me that doesnt make it WC.. he's throwing punches like a boxer with pretty non-descript stepping.

Sure, he had intent... but WC doesnt have exclusive rights on that

[Wayfaring]

Like you said I have tested my thing often and its strong. If you don't think my punch will break a jaw, and need a clip to prove it, sorry.

This is the difference between your average WCK senior and your average 3 yr. MMA trained fighter.

The WCK senior uses words like raison d'etre to sound more intellectual when questioning the advances in the last 20 yrs of fighting arts, initialized by the Gracie challenge and the UFC. Also, the WCK senior is under a great deal of delusion in that he thinks that if he "goes all out" in punching someone in a live training scenario he's going to be breaking people's jaws left and right.

The average 3 yr. trained MMA fighter would look puzzingly at someone who questioned why a realistic unbiased forum for testing martial arts fighting skill across different arts needs to justify their existence. They would counter with the observation that realistic training places the burden upon traditionally trained TMA's and less realistic exercises such as "chi sau" trained primarily to develop fighting skills to provide their own raison d'etre. After all, the video evidence of fighting prowess is almost everywhere you look in a MMA context, but nowhere to be found in a TMA trained WCK context.

Also, the average 3 yr trained MMA fighter knows as an obvious fact that people's jaws get broken by punches in a live full contact environment only by luck in timing and someone hanging their mouth open.

The WCK senior delusionally thinks that they would "break jaws" if they trained harder than their steering wheel chi sau exercises in "chi sau". This is because they seldom if ever move their training environments beyond the push and slap level that basic chi sau trains.

This is the contrast of a more realistic viewpoint born from experience contrasted with a delusional viewpoint born from myth, legend, and ineffectual training methods.

[k gledhill]

This is the difference between your average WCK senior and your average 3 yr. MMA trained fighter.

The WCK senior uses words like raison d'etre to sound more intellectual when questioning the advances in the last 20 yrs of fighting arts, initialized by the Gracie challenge and the UFC. Also, the WCK senior is under a great deal of delusion in that he thinks that if he "goes all out" in punching someone in a live training scenario he's going to be breaking people's jaws left and right.

The average 3 yr. trained MMA fighter would look puzzingly at someone who questioned why a realistic unbiased forum for testing martial arts fighting skill across different arts needs to justify their existence. They would counter with the observation that realistic training places the burden upon traditionally trained TMA's and less realistic exercises such as "chi sau" trained primarily to develop fighting skills to provide their own raison d'etre. After all, the video evidence of fighting prowess is almost everywhere you look in a MMA context, but nowhere to be found in a TMA trained WCK context.

Also, the average 3 yr trained MMA fighter knows as an obvious fact that people's jaws get broken by punches in a live full contact environment only by luck in timing and someone hanging their mouth open.

The WCK senior delusionally thinks that they would "break jaws" if they trained harder than their steering wheel chi sau exercises in "chi sau". This is because they seldom if ever move their training environments beyond the push and slap level that basic chi sau trains.

This is the contrast of a more realistic viewpoint born from experience contrasted with a delusional viewpoint born from myth, legend, and ineffectual training methods.

Yawn ......:D you're taking my post too literally Wayfaring and then trying to make an argument off it :rolleyes: yeah Im an intellectual and raison d'etre proves it :D:D ...breaking jaws :D I've only broken one jaw in a fight. Dont go nuts on that. I worked with a guy from Newcastle, boxer, bouncing, who said he would calmly insult your mother and get your jaw to open a fraction before 'chinning' you ...:D or he would offer you a cigarette and as you opened your mouth to light it , chin you :D obviously to get the jaw open.

We all have seen the development of fighting , VT has had a wake up call too. Its not exclusive to mma ;)

The Gracie challenge and the UFC ? what do you mean ? :D:D you're implying it was staged ? to make the Gracies have a platform for their ways ? herecy !! Frost wont have that....

[anerlich]

you're taking my post too literally Wayfaring and then trying to make an argument off it

Come off it, Kev, you do that often enough.

To be fair though, the forum would be very quiet indeed if no one did that.

[Wayfaring]

Yawn ......:D you're taking my post too literally Wayfaring and then trying to make an argument off it :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn1Qolv4ntQ

You're like a cross between Mac Davis and a muppet.

[k gledhill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn1Qolv4ntQ

You're like a cross between Mac Davis and a muppet.

Moi ? he replied intellectually :rolleyes::D

[Wayfaring]

Moi ? he replied intellectually :rolleyes::D

OK. Definitely more muppet.

[GlennR]

OK. Definitely more muppet.



And surely this would be his preaching muppet of choice ;)

In fact i think he and Graham have fashioned themselves after him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCVmKN5At_o

[GlennR]

OK. Definitely more muppet.



Or maybe these two....... im undecided

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14njUwJUg1I&feature=related

[k gledhill]

Or maybe these two....... im undecided

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14njUwJUg1I&feature=related

Statler and Waldorf, definitely :D

[Frost]

So you like A Orr....I don't see VT personally

SO you don’t see VT in alan Orrs approach…do you see it in Phils students?

[k gledhill]

SO you don’t see VT in alan Orrs approach…do you see it in Phils students?

I see more similarities to us...yes. but with differences that where like my old thinking.

[gunnyhighway]

@ K Gledhill, the main difference being that Phils guys fight and yours um, dont...

[anerlich]

Do we have any evidence of this besides what came out of the gracies mouths? They are known for their tall tales after all

The Gracie tall tales are veritable midgets compared to most of the stories that underpin KF systems.

[k gledhill]

@ K Gledhill, the main difference being that Phils guys fight and yours um, dont...

"...Fighting is not exclusive to those who post clips..." Confucius ;)

[Vajramusti]

"...Fighting is not exclusive to those who post clips..." Confucius ;)
---------------- why insult Confucius in a failed attempt at humor?

Joy C

[Jansingsang]

MORE KEVIN AND GRAHAM :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJNxj1FdKuo&NR=1

[k gledhill]

---------------- why insult Confucius in a failed attempt at humor?

Joy C

I read your articles, there's humor :D

[k gledhill]

MORE KEVIN AND GRAHAM :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJNxj1FdKuo&NR=1

jansingsang do you do VT ? never mind, your from Nino Bernardo I take it....

[Vajramusti]

I read your articles, there's humor :D
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reading and writing skills are related-eventually leading to understanding.

[k gledhill]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reading and writing skills are related-eventually leading to understanding.

so what's your excuse ? :D didnt help you.

[Vajramusti]

so what's your excuse ? :D didnt help you.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

bye bye

[k gledhill]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

bye bye

Until we meet again ;):D keep an open mind Joy ....ribbet.

[gunnyhighway]

"...Fighting is not exclusive to those who post clips..." , i think clips should apply however when all you seem to do is write off clips from other lineages as poor/not Wing Chun.

Its easy to appear enlightened when you have nothing to show that can be critiqued by other people.

There again, based on your "war stories" you're probably too deadly to spar with as you would probably kill your partners with your exemplary WSL skills... Hence the lack of any sparring videos... right?

I laughed my a** off when you claimed you have had mma guys come to you to learn to fight. So you are saying that guys with battle tested skills in the cage are going to swap what they have for what you have to offer???

I get the impression that you are one of those guys who struggles in sparring but claims that in "the street" its always different. Sure, in "the street" the stakes are higher and adrenaline robs you of fine motor skills so most complex combinations are out of the window but the mechanics and chaos you find in hard sparring are no different in "the street". So why not show us the real time skills that have enabled you to beat armed people, multiple opponents etc etc.

Oh and btw, on the basis that the WSL system is taught constistantly and is superior (in your little world ) to all other Wing Chun systems, why is it that during both of the open chi sau tournaments held at the SENI in the UK a couple of years ago the WSL guys hardly won a bout? ( we know its not "the street" but chi sau IS an indication of skill level and a forum for people to show off their technical skills) Strange that...

[Frost]

"...Fighting is not exclusive to those who post clips..." , i think clips should apply however when all you seem to do is write off clips from other lineages as poor/not Wing Chun.

Its easy to appear enlightened when you have nothing to show that can be critiqued by other people.

There again, based on your "war stories" you're probably too deadly to spar with as you would probably kill your partners with your exemplary WSL skills... Hence the lack of any sparring videos... right?

I laughed my a** off when you claimed you have had mma guys come to you to learn to fight. So you are saying that guys with battle tested skills in the cage are going to swap what they have for what you have to offer???

I get the impression that you are one of those guys who struggles in sparring but claims that in "the street" its always different. Sure, in "the street" the stakes are higher and adrenaline robs you of fine motor skills so most complex combinations are out of the window but the mechanics and chaos you find in hard sparring are no different in "the street". So why not show us the real time skills that have enabled you to beat armed people, multiple opponents etc etc.

Oh and btw, on the basis that the WSL system is taught constistantly and is superior (in your little world ) to all other Wing Chun systems, why is it that during both of the open chi sau tournaments held at the SENI in the UK a couple of years ago the WSL guys hardly won a bout? ( we know its not "the street" but chi sau IS an indication of skill level and a forum for people to show off their technical skills) Strange that...

good points but i disagree on one issue That the shi sau thing is not that strance, whats strikes me as strange is that since all of WSL’s students make such a big deal of what a fighter he was, and since he himself was always testing his skills in fights and competitions, Kevin cant seem to post any clips of him or his students sparring or fighting…heck id settle for some clips of any of Bayers students in actual fights or comps, he only seems to be able to post clips of drills though

WSL I suspect would find this amusing

[k gledhill]

"...Fighting is not exclusive to those who post clips..." , i think clips should apply however when all you seem to do is write off clips from other lineages as poor/not Wing Chun.

Its easy to appear enlightened when you have nothing to show that can be critiqued by other people.

There again, based on your "war stories" you're probably too deadly to spar with as you would probably kill your partners with your exemplary WSL skills... Hence the lack of any sparring videos... right?

I laughed my a** off when you claimed you have had mma guys come to you to learn to fight. So you are saying that guys with battle tested skills in the cage are going to swap what they have for what you have to offer???

I get the impression that you are one of those guys who struggles in sparring but claims that in "the street" its always different. Sure, in "the street" the stakes are higher and adrenaline robs you of fine motor skills so most complex combinations are out of the window but the mechanics and chaos you find in hard sparring are no different in "the street". So why not show us the real time skills that have enabled you to beat armed people, multiple opponents etc etc.

Oh and btw, on the basis that the WSL system is taught constistantly and is superior (in your little world ) to all other Wing Chun systems, why is it that during both of the open chi sau tournaments held at the SENI in the UK a couple of years ago the WSL guys hardly won a bout? ( we know its not "the street" but chi sau IS an indication of skill level and a forum for people to show off their technical skills) Strange that...

I dont write off ALL clips, try reading old posts, I have posted clips, yeah strange huh , mma guys with bjj say they wont use a guard in a real fight go figure. Yeah my attacks are too deadly to show :D thats childish goading.

I'm laughing my A R S E off now at your notion of 'chi-sao competitions' , you dont know even understand what I mean do you? ...ah the enlightened and their posts :rolleyes:
I have been chi-saoing for 25 years ...one of my juniors at my old sifu 'Pasco David' won a chi-sao competition in London by simply lop saoing another guy for the whole duration ...one grab and hold won...silly ?
so you do VT ?

[Frost]

Strange I know several MMA fighters, and whilst non would use the guard on the street as their opening move, some have and guess what they did ok, I know more that would use the guard than WSL’s wing chun that’s for sure

I also know more than a few that have choked guys out on the street when the fight hit the ground, I also know more than a few that also suplexed people into the next week, don’t know many that have chain punched guys though

As for childish goading re-read a number of your posts on this thread ………especially those to Joy

[gunnyhighway]

"I dont write off ALL clips, try reading old posts, I have posted clips"

So you have posted clips of you sparring hard showing off your "street"
skills, where are the links?

" yeah strange huh , mma guys with bjj say they wont use a guard in a real fight go figure."


So what part of your wing chun wisdom did you impart to these mma guys? Im interested.

"Yeah my attacks are too deadly to show thats childish goading."

Childish, not really, i will tell you whats childish AND dangerous, guys that go around telling war stories over the internet about how many fights they have had on "the street" , beating guys with knives/multiple oponents etc. I bet you enjoy telling your admiring students about all the rucks youve had and seeing the way they react. Thats dangerous, youre giving people false hope/confidence in what can be achieved. Oh and based on the amount of violence you claim to have been involved in, how much time have you spent in prison as a result? Thought so, none... Youre a walter mitty mate, you claim to be the sh*t but cant even put up a clip of you sparring or showing your battle tested skills. If you want to keep criticizing what other people do so vociferously if you want your opinions to have any weight put up or shut up.

"I'm laughing my A R S E off now at your notion of 'chi-sao competitions' , you dont know even understand what I mean do you? ...ah the enlightened and their posts "

Ive been training in wing chun for many years myself mate, you dont have any exclusive rights in understanding the art. I know what chi sau is and isnt.

"I have been chi-saoing for 25 years ...one of my juniors at my old sifu 'Pasco David' won a chi-sao competition in London by simply lop saoing another guy for the whole duration ...one grab and hold won...silly ?"

Yeah ive trained with Pasco back in the day, a very nice open minded guy who was happy to spar with me (at that point a complete stranger).

So he won a chi sau competition with a simple move, thats great!

But youre not answering my question , why is it that the wsl guys got caned at both of those competitions. And yes, like i said before we know its not a fight its a
skill test. I was there mate, and saw NONE of the stuff you espouse as wsl specific being applied by the wsl guys. Most of the bouts were pretty rough and ready with plenty of hard shots to the body. Pity you werent there as you would have won every trophy, especially with your deadly "street" skills.

so you do VT ?

Yes, bet you are itching to find out which lineage i train in so you can tell me what im doing wrong...

[k gledhill]

"I dont write off ALL clips, try reading old posts, I have posted clips"

So you have posted clips of you sparring hard showing off your "street"
skills, where are the links?

" yeah strange huh , mma guys with bjj say they wont use a guard in a real fight go figure."


So what part of your wing chun wisdom did you impart to these mma guys? Im interested.

"Yeah my attacks are too deadly to show thats childish goading."

Childish, not really, i will tell you whats childish AND dangerous, guys that go around telling war stories over the internet about how many fights they have had on "the street" , beating guys with knives/multiple oponents etc. I bet you enjoy telling your admiring students about all the rucks youve had and seeing the way they react. Thats dangerous, youre giving people false hope/confidence in what can be achieved. Oh and based on the amount of violence you claim to have been involved in, how much time have you spent in prison as a result? Thought so, none... Youre a walter mitty mate, you claim to be the sh*t but cant even put up a clip of you sparring or showing your battle tested skills. If you want to keep criticizing what other people do so vociferously if you want your opinions to have any weight put up or shut up.

"I'm laughing my A R S E off now at your notion of 'chi-sao competitions' , you dont know even understand what I mean do you? ...ah the enlightened and their posts "

Ive been training in wing chun for many years myself mate, you dont have any exclusive rights in understanding the art. I know what chi sau is and isnt.

"I have been chi-saoing for 25 years ...one of my juniors at my old sifu 'Pasco David' won a chi-sao competition in London by simply lop saoing another guy for the whole duration ...one grab and hold won...silly ?"

Yeah ive trained with Pasco back in the day, a very nice open minded guy who was happy to spar with me (at that point a complete stranger).

So he won a chi sau competition with a simple move, thats great!

But youre not answering my question , why is it that the wsl guys got caned at both of those competitions. And yes, like i said before we know its not a fight its a
skill test. I was there mate, and saw NONE of the stuff you espouse as wsl specific being applied by the wsl guys. Most of the bouts were pretty rough and ready with plenty of hard shots to the body. Pity you werent there as you would have won every trophy, especially with your deadly "street" skills.

so you do VT ?

Yes, bet you are itching to find out which lineage i train in so you can tell me what im doing wrong...


Yeah Walter Mitty, that's me. Prison....no comment.
War stories to students? It's really dangerous telling them what works and what's BS ....real experiences can be shared.
I sat on Lenny McLean's couch with him one Eve. At his home, he told me that if he thought a Guy was taking a 'liberty'
he would knock him out then pull his pants/trousrs down and rip his foreskin before throwing him into a skip/dumpster, so he knew when he woke up he had been disrespectful
I made sure as he told me to not disrespect him : )
Hah!

All stories mate.


No I like to know if you're in VT or trolling...

I agree with your wsl chisao results. I did chisao with Clive Potter personally
WSL HAD MANY VISITORS BUT FEW STUDENTS

dwell on that.

[gunnyhighway]

Then there was the time when me and "Mad" Frankie Fraser put on the gloves and compared notes...:rolleyes:

Dwell on what?

So you are saying that most wsl guys can't hack it but you can?

C'mon let us into your secret? What makes you SO good and us mere mortals simply poor misguided fools that will only be able to pull off Wing Chun if we abandon what we have and train your method?

[k gledhill]

Then there was the time when me and "Mad" Frankie Fraser put on the gloves and compared notes...:rolleyes:

Dwell on what?

So you are saying that most wsl guys can't hack it but you can?

C'mon let us into your secret? What makes you SO good and us mere mortals simply poor misguided fools that will only be able to pull off Wing Chun if we abandon what we have and train your method?

I'm saying you're the one to decide for yourself. I introduced the alternative. I'm not forcing it down anyone's throats.
Like I said all wsl aren't the same. I am trying to present a way of thinking
That many aren't even aware of. Not doing it to make myself
More superior.

[Jansingsang]

jansingsang do you do VT ? never mind, your from Nino Bernardo I take it....



Empty cart makes the most noise GROW UP Kevin for a big Crusty ole man your very child like :rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

Empty cart makes the most noise GROW UP Kevin for a big Crusty ole man your very child like :rolleyes:

Right. I'm now an empty cart being driven by
Walter Mitty. Hah!
So wise of you ; )
Can't say I haven't tried ...I led the horse to water ..now it is up to
The horse.

[anerlich]

mma guys with bjj say they wont use a guard in a real fight

They won't by choice, as Frost said. If they end up on the bottom on the ground though, at least they'll have skills to work their way out from there, unlike some.


Can't say I haven't tried ...I led the horse to water ..now it is up to
The horse.


The horse sniffed the water, and it smelled like Kool-aid, so he didn't drink.

[k gledhill]

They won't by choice, as Frost said. If they end up on the bottom on the ground though, at least they'll have skills to work their way out from there, unlike some.



The horse sniffed the water, and it smelled like Kool-aid, so he didn't drink.

I didn't come to me and say I wouldn't do the guard, other people did, I am the messenger. I have also used Judo chokes, neck-locks, sparring and fighting in bars/nightclubs .
I know a guy who teaches wrestling and also studied BJJ who gave it up because it lacked the reality of street encounters, that his take not mine, just sharing, before you all go ape s h i t on that .What no BJJ , ! bleed him !

As for Horse, its his business, I just point it to the water/koolaid :D it drinks or not I dont care anymore .

[anerlich]

I know a guy who teaches wrestling and also studied BJJ who gave it up because it lacked the reality of street encounters, that his take not mine, just sharing, before you all go ape s h i t on that .

I know several guys who teach wrestling who also studied BJJ who took it up and got black belts because they felt parts of it not in wrestling had applications to real fights. your guy might be wrong, so might you. There are specialist wrestling coaches at both schools I attend. WE had the coach of the Croatian national Judo team teaching at the BJJ/MMA school for a while as well. BJJ guys know they HAVE to cross-train, unlike some.

Just sharing. Try not to go a p e s h i t over that either.


I dont care anymore

So no more PB posts? yee-hah! :D

[k gledhill]

I know several guys who teach wrestling who also studied BJJ who took it up and got black belts because they felt parts of it not in wrestling had applications to real fights. your guy might be wrong, so might you. There are specialist wrestling coaches at both schools I attend. WE had the coach of the Croatian national Judo team teaching at the BJJ/MMA school for a while as well. BJJ guys know they HAVE to cross-train, unlike some.

Just sharing. Try not to go a p e s h i t over that either.



So no more PB posts? yee-hah! :D

What they didnt quit !! no way dude thats not possible !:D PB whats that ?

[Frost]

I know several guys who teach wrestling who also studied BJJ who took it up and got black belts because they felt parts of it not in wrestling had applications to real fights. your guy might be wrong, so might you. There are specialist wrestling coaches at both schools I attend. WE had the coach of the Croatian national Judo team teaching at the BJJ/MMA school for a while as well. BJJ guys know they HAVE to cross-train, unlike some.

Just sharing. Try not to go a p e s h i t over that either.



So no more PB posts? yee-hah! :D

you know when you read posts some of them just read true and some just read like wishful thinking .....some how andrews always read true

I wouldnt mind some more PB posts, as long as they included him or his guys fighting and clips of them in action....i mean its WSL lineage for lords sake doesnt any of them actually do what he talked about and test themselves in competition?

[gunnyhighway]

I think we can safely arrive at the conclusion that we wont be seeing any PB WSL clips / K Gledhill clips of good hard sparring anytime soon.

"I have also used Judo chokes, neck-locks, sparring and fighting in bars/nightclubs". :rolleyes:


These non-prompted fight references really dont help your credibilty, its unprovable and just smacks of "war stories".

And thats one of the big problems with forums like this, you can claim all of these things and never have to back them up.

Why not just say you have had some real experience if asked the question and leave it at that. Ime, guys that have REALLY been there and done it are very reluctant to talk about their experiences whereas you seem to want to constantly remind us of how effective you are on "the street".

[k gledhill]

I think we can safely arrive at the conclusion that we wont be seeing any PB WSL clips / K Gledhill clips of good hard sparring anytime soon.

"I have also used Judo chokes, neck-locks, sparring and fighting in bars/nightclubs". :rolleyes:


These non-prompted fight references really dont help your credibilty, its unprovable and just smacks of "war stories".

And thats one of the big problems with forums like this, you can claim all of these things and never have to back them up.

Why not just say you have had some real experience if asked the question and leave it at that. Ime, guys that have REALLY been there and done it are very reluctant to talk about their experiences whereas you seem to want to constantly remind us of how effective you are on "the street".

gunnyhighway doesnt believe me :rolleyes: oh no ! without his okay all is lost :D:D:D I'm doomed to what ? you not believing me ...:rolleyes:
I dont care for, nor do I want your approval, thanks.
Hows this, in 25 years of VT and 10 security work, I never had a fight ...really. Believe that ? I would use the way of peace to defend myself from guys attacking me in bars.:D:D:D

[gunnyhighway]

"Hows this, in 25 years of VT and 10 security work, I never had a fight ...really"

In your case im willing to believe that, yes:D:D:D

Its all just conjecture mate, ive worked the doors and only had a handfull of scuffles. Most doors ive worked on always employed teams therefore even when it kicked off we were normally mob handed so were able to simple eject people using c & r. I think youve watched RoadHouse too many times and actually believe you are the Patrick Swayze character:rolleyes:

Just cos youve done 25 years of VT doesnt mean youve had lots of fights, how is that supposed to be relevant to whether you have fought or not.

And yet again you seem to have to browbeat with your 25 years of experience , 10 of security:rolleyes:. I dont give a ***k about what you claim, i think its horsesh*t, btw im not saying you need my approval for anything, dont care.

In conclusion you seem to have the most combat experience, most knowledge and best skills on this forum , YET cant even point us to ONE clip of you even showing some basic compliant drilling, let alone you sparring and actually using the superior technique you constantly espouse to us.

Of course, you dont have to show clips to prove how good you are BUT if you want to have any weight to your arguments/critiques of others ,without some proof of your skills (clips) then imo your views are irrelevant.:D:D:D

[k gledhill]

Empty cart makes the most noise GROW UP Kevin for a big Crusty ole man your very child like :rolleyes:


"Hows this, in 25 years of VT and 10 security work, I never had a fight ...really"

In your case im willing to believe that, yes:D:D:D

Its all just conjecture mate, ive worked the doors and only had a handfull of scuffles. Most doors ive worked on always employed teams therefore even when it kicked off we were normally mob handed so were able to simple eject people using c & r. I think youve watched RoadHouse too many times and actually believe you are the Patrick Swayze character:rolleyes:

Just cos youve done 25 years of VT doesnt mean youve had lots of fights, how is that supposed to be relevant to whether you have fought or not.

And yet again you seem to have to browbeat with your 25 years of experience , 10 of security:rolleyes:. I dont give a ***k about what you claim, i think its horsesh*t, btw im not saying you need my approval for anything, dont care.

In conclusion you seem to have the most combat experience, most knowledge and best skills on this forum , YET cant even point us to ONE clip of you even showing some basic compliant drilling, let alone you sparring and actually using the superior technique you constantly espouse to us.

Of course, you dont have to show clips to prove how good you are BUT if you want to have any weight to your arguments/critiques of others ,without some proof of your skills (clips) then imo your views are irrelevant.:D:D:D

Yes I too worked with guys who boxed MT etc..
I also did c&r more so than resorting to fists.
I also share experience of good c&r tactics.

So how many times did you watch yourself in clips you have taken? You can prove you had scuffles?

Thought so. As many clips of me.

How many clips do you have of sparring in class?

I sparred with pasco too...did chisao with him. But there aren't clips. Show us the clip of you sparring with him there are still photos of he and I doing some chi sao on v kan website. I can't just take your word. You don't even have a name or do VT so far....

Yeah I am really worried you won't pick me to train with.
Hah!

You have done doors. Hore**** prove it.

[gunnyhighway]

"So how many times did you watch yourself in clips you have taken? You can prove you had scuffles?"

We are not talking about me, we are talking about you.

The incidents i have been involved in really arent worth mentioning, i dont need to claim to have had many, many real fights, defeated armed attackers / multiple attackers like you continue to do just to fuel your ego.

I know enough about real violance to never go courting it but like i said before, we are talking about you not me.


"Thought so. As many clips of me."

No i dont have clips on this forum, but im not the one who says hes the sh** and has claimed lots of real experience.


"Yes I too worked with guys who boxed MT etc..
I also did c&r more so than resorting to fists.
I also share experience of good c&r tactics."

You really dont have to keep giving out your cv so readily, couldnt give a sh**, its not impressive and its not clever:rolleyes:


"I sparred with pasco too...did chisao with him. But there aren't clips. Show us the clip of you sparring with him there are still photos of he and I doing some chi sao on v kan website. I can't just take your word. You don't even have a name or do VT so far...."

Your are pretty childish, whats all this one upmanship stuff you have to constantly revert to. "I sparred with pasco too and i beat him with one hand tied behind his back and then Victor Kan turned up and i did him as well" :rolleyes:

Its all very boring.

As for "VT" yes i study the art and have done for many years, 10 no 20 no 30, id better say 30 so its more than you :D:D:D

My Wing Chun background and lineage is none of your business and is irrelevant to this dicussion like i said before we are talking about the master of almightyness... you.

"Yeah I am really worried you won't pick me to train with.
Hah!"

Is that because youre so good you would kick my a**?

I would love to have the oppurtunity to touch hands with you because i think you are all talk. Where are you based in New York?, i am going to be there later on this year. What a great chance to film your skills real time. You will be able to show the world how crap i am and how brilliant you are

"You have done doors. Hore**** prove it. "

Tell you what, you prove it first and then i will be happy to post photos of myself working the door at various establishments ive worked at.

So put up or shut up:D:D:D

[k gledhill]

"So how many times did you watch yourself in clips you have taken? You can prove you had scuffles?"

We are not talking about me, we are talking about you.

The incidents i have been involved in really arent worth mentioning, i dont need to claim to have had many, many real fights, defeated armed attackers / multiple attackers like you continue to do just to fuel your ego.

I know enough about real violance to never go courting it but like i said before, we are talking about you not me.


"Thought so. As many clips of me."

No i dont have clips on this forum, but im not the one who says hes the sh** and has claimed lots of real experience.


"Yes I too worked with guys who boxed MT etc..
I also did c&r more so than resorting to fists.
I also share experience of good c&r tactics."

You really dont have to keep giving out your cv so readily, couldnt give a sh**, its not impressive and its not clever:rolleyes:


"I sparred with pasco too...did chisao with him. But there aren't clips. Show us the clip of you sparring with him there are still photos of he and I doing some chi sao on v kan website. I can't just take your word. You don't even have a name or do VT so far...."

Your are pretty childish, whats all this one upmanship stuff you have to constantly revert to. "I sparred with pasco too and i beat him with one hand tied behind his back and then Victor Kan turned up and i did him as well" :rolleyes:

Its all very boring.

As for "VT" yes i study the art and have done for many years, 10 no 20 no 30, id better say 30 so its more than you :D:D:D

My Wing Chun background and lineage is none of your business and is irrelevant to this dicussion like i said before we are talking about the master of almightyness... you.

"Yeah I am really worried you won't pick me to train with.
Hah!"

Is that because youre so good you would kick my a**?

I would love to have the oppurtunity to touch hands with you because i think you are all talk. Where are you based in New York?, i am going to be there later on this year. What a great chance to film your skills real time. You will be able to show the world how crap i am and how brilliant you are

"You have done doors. Hore**** prove it. "

Tell you what, you prove it first and then i will be happy to post photos of myself working the door at various establishments ive worked at.

So put up or shut up:D:D:D

You're not the first I've met through this forum ...

All my info is in the link below...

[GlennR]

You're not the first I've met through this forum ...

All my info is in the link below...



Ahhhh.... so youre using the KFF as a dating website..... it all makes sense now!!

[couch]

......

Who are you and what is your M.O.?

[gunnyhighway]

"you're not the first I've met through this forum ..."

As in "you're not the first ive met through this forum who has come to my gym and been destroyed by my superior skills" ? :rolleyes: tbh i wouldnt expect any other kind of response...

"All my info is in the link below... "

Looking forward to it:D:D:D

Will remember to bring the camera too so you can post the clip of you beasting me with your "street skills":rolleyes:

Presumably i can just turn up right?:D:D:D or do i need to make an appointment so you can make sure you have people around to "hold you back" in order for me to avoid serious injury?

[gunnyhighway]

"Who are you and what is your M.O.? "

Im someone who is sick of seeing theoretical/armchair warriors spout their cr*p on forums like this.

Who I am and what my "M.O." is my business.

Im not going to give out personal details or discuss my lineage, that seems to be all most wc guys want to know so they can then say "oh hes leung ting or hawkins cheung , those guys are cr*p".

whats your name and whats your m.o.?

[k gledhill]

"you're not the first I've met through this forum ..."

As in "you're not the first ive met through this forum who has come to my gym and been destroyed by my superior skills" ? :rolleyes: tbh i wouldnt expect any other kind of response...

"All my info is in the link below... "

Looking forward to it:D:D:D

Will remember to bring the camera too so you can post the clip of you beasting me with your "street skills":rolleyes:

Presumably i can just turn up right?:D:D:D or do i need to make an appointment so you can make sure you have people around to "hold you back" in order for me to avoid serious injury?

Like everyone you can hear the thinking and judge for yourself....:D