why all zones should be practiced.

[Dragonzbane76]

So, why should we practice all area's of fighting? Why do people become "comfortable" in a certain zone and not think they should expand? Being younger I thought that what i learned was "enough." Never taking into consideration that pressure against my offense was going happen. Humbling in most senses I found that traveling around to other schools and placing myself in difficult positions presented me with a clear view of why we should do just that. Place ourselves in "uncomfortable" positions.

Any thoughts?

[YouKnowWho]

If you are a computer programmer, 30 years ago all you have to do is to be able to design

- DB2 database,
- Microsoft Word,
- DOS operating system,
- ...

Today if you want to get a job in the computer programmer field, you have to be able to design

- Google search engine,
- website,
- virus protection,
- ...

I have never expect people used "pull guard" or "jump guard" before. The day that someone did that to me, the day that I started to train how to deal with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pUn8_sCRRI

The reason that we train is to handle the modern world challenge. Today we have to deal with different kind of challenge than our ancestor had to. We may not like to "evolve" but we don't have choice.

[Dragonzbane76]

on concrete....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJzP6kiVv34&NR=1

[vociferor]

We seldom learn when we're in the most comfortable of places. It's often through struggle that all manner of ordeals are presented to us and we are asked to overcome.

edit: in the words of Depeche Mode, "Suffer Well"

[Drake]

In the words of Dodgeball...

"If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball!"

[bawang]

i dont like ground fighting and im not gonna learn ground fighting. for 10 thousand years people decided if you hit the ground u lose for very good reasons.

ground fighting makes no sense. whole premise of vale tudo makes no sense.

i got intersted in high school because i watched a lot of ufc. i lost all interest after i learned about all that steroid abuse.

[SPJ]

in mantis

short strikes and long strikes are used back to back.

intermediate distance for setting up qin na and grappling is always there.

top, mid and bottom

left and right

close body kao and throw

--

they are all covered.

:cool:

[Drake]

i dont like ground fighting and im not gonna learn ground fighting. for 10 thousand years people decided if you hit the ground u lose for very good reasons.

ground fighting makes no sense. whole premise of vale tudo makes no sense.

i got intersted in high school because i watched a lot of ufc. i lost all interest after i learned about all that steroid abuse.

So all I have to do is knock you down and jump on top of you?

[SPJ]

the context of ground fighting

is like one against one

how about fighting multiple opponents on the ground

can you arm bar 2 arms or more arms at the same time?

:)

[bawang]

So all I have to do is knock you down and jump on top of you?

if u knock me down u kick me

in pride and art of war the referee has to move you away after you kick too much because the guy cant get up.

[Drake]

if u knock me down u kick me

in pride and art of war the referee has to move you away after you kick too much because the guy cant get up.

Isn't the whole purpose of knocking a guy down so that you can beat the everloving *&^% out of him?

If you get knocked down, that's your fault. If you can't protect yourself on the ground, that's your fault too.

Nothing dishonorable in exploiting a miserable gap in an unprepared opponent.

[Lucas]

All growth happens outside the comfort zone. How many people train to deal with that scenario though. If u get knock down or thrown and instead of following u down your opponent starts whailing on you with full force soccer kicks to your neck, head and spine? Kicking a downed opponent is most reasonable in real life. You have less risk of the fight turning against you and you remain 100% mobile to run from backup or sirens. I'm not saying learn ground no good but getting kick while u are down by someone wanting to hurt you bad is tough to escape, esp if more than one guy kicking you. This is why all gang beatings happen just like that. There is an element of pride and ego and 'honor' that dictates ww don't conduct ourselfs as such..but that's not the reality outside

[bawang]

Isn't the whole purpose of knocking a guy down so that you can beat the everloving *&^% out of him?


if you straddle me like a pony youre gonna get the sh1t beat out of you in real life.

people dont magically stand around in a cricle cheering "woaaaaaah" like those youtube videos

[taai gihk yahn]

if you straddle me like a pony youre gonna get the sh1t beat out of you in real life.

not unless you have one of these:
http://egojon.com/images/demotivational%20posters/Anal%20Bum%20Cover.jpg

[Drake]

if you straddle me like a pony youre gonna get the sh1t beat out of you in real life.

people dont magically stand around in a cricle cheering "woaaaaaah" like those youtube videos

All I've ever done was real life. Never stepped foot in a tournament.

[bawang]

i AM talking about real life.

[Lucas]

On a related note what's it like to have the s**** beat out of you?.does a lot of **** come out when that happens?

[Drake]

i AM talking about real life.

Can't tell with you sometimes.

[bawang]

in real life i havent fought since high school. there was a 20 vs 1 fight, i saw it and got scared, and never fought again.

im saying mma market itself as no holds barred but its still ritualized combat. theres no point to go to the ground. its not realistic, its not entertaining.

[YouKnowWho]

i dont like ground fighting ...

I didn't like the ground fighting either. But since my old training partner was a beautiful girl, that totally change the picture. :D

When you throw a matchbox in the air and hit it, that matchbox will fly away. When you put that matchbox on the ground, a kid can step on and smash it. It's much easier to throw your opponent down than knock him down. Since throwing your opponent down is not the end of the game, you have to "finish" him.

IMO, kick-punch-wrap-throw-finish is very logic combat sequence. Whether your "finish" is arm bar, leg bar, choke, or just simple striking on your opponent's face will be all up to you.

[Dragonzbane76]

i dont like ground fighting and im not gonna learn ground fighting. for 10 thousand years people decided if you hit the ground u lose for very good reasons.


you might not like ground fighting, but that really doesn't matter if someone puts you there. Like I said put yourself in those positions and learn.

[hskwarrior]

This is like the TWILIGHT ZONE.....Do Do Do Dooooooo

[bawang]

you might not like ground fighting, but that really doesn't matter if someone puts you there. Like I said put yourself in those positions and learn.

if i am all alone and a group of ju jitsu guys with cameras suddenly challenge me to a fight, i am going to say no. and i will never brag to total strangers that i do kung fu, and kung fu is deadly.



This is like the TWILIGHT ZONE.....Do Do Do Dooooooo

im being honest to myself. i aint learning that gay sh1t. i bet u have those one month gracy certificates just ot fool ur students.

[hskwarrior]

im being honest to myself. i aint learning that gay sh1t. i bet u have those one month gracy certificates just ot fool ur students.

Dang, you mean they have a one month certificate? I got a one week Gracy Certificate. Now that is some really gay sh1t right there!!!!!! :eek:

[Dragonzbane76]

if i am all alone and a group of ju jitsu guys with cameras suddenly challenge me to a fight, i am going to say no. and i will never brag to total strangers that i do kung fu, and kung fu is deadly.


haha one way of looking at it. But seriously, not saying that everyone should be a gracie "expert" on the ground, you should learn the basis of it for basic utilization. Not just talking about JJ guys, a lot of fights just end up on the ground, if your dead set against learning it so be it. But IMO every one should learn ground tactics as part of there training method and being a more versed person in the arts. But thats just it my opinion.

[bawang]

.
Not just talking about JJ guys, a lot of fights just end up on the ground, .
ALL fights end up on the ground.

[SPJ]

2 common ways to get up once u r down.

1. coy fish flips up or li yu da ting.

2. black dragon spirals along a pillar, wu long jiao zhu.

:)

[Dragonzbane76]

ALL fights end up on the ground.

I wouldn't say all but a very high percentage.

Anyways, all I'm saying is don't fall into the pitfall of believing that yours or anyones stand-up alone will prevent such things from happening. That's why i started this thread-all zones should be practiced. A working understanding of them at least.

[Dragonzbane76]

2 common ways to get up once u r down.

1. coy fish flips up or li yu da ting.

2. black dragon spirals along a pillar, wu long jiao zhu.


:) don't know those unless shown. If you want to see a good way of getting back to your feet, watch a wrestler. If you want to see good defense against takedowns watch a wrestler. I understand that not everyone looks to cross train, but many good things that TCMA could gain for being able to exploit what they do know could be gained from such things.

[bawang]

I wouldn't say all but a very high percentage.

Anyways, all I'm saying is don't fall into the pitfall of believing that yours or anyones stand-up alone will prevent such things from happening. That's why i started this thread-all zones should be practiced. A working understanding of them at least.

in stand up fighting when you get taken down you lose. ground fighting is more forgiving because you keep fighting.

[YouKnowWho]

i dont like ground fighting ...

Ground "finish" moves are more than just arm bar, leg bar, and choke. Many TCMA skills can be applied there too. Moves such as:

- smash the back of your opponent's head on the hard ground when he falls.
- drop your sharp elbow on the back of your opponent's head, heart, rib area, ...
- drop your knee on your opponent's chest, stomach, groin area, ...
- kick the back of your opponet's head when he is down.
- ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTR5KU3xwls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbJfX9Jinik&feature=related

[Dragonzbane76]

in stand up fighting when you get taken down you lose. ground fighting is more forgiving because you keep fighting.

I guess it would come down to your perception of "lose" in the end. As for being more forgiving I wouldn't go that far. GNP, hyperextensions of joints, and choke to the point of death is not very "forgiving" in my book.

Just curious is this a chinese honor thing? I've read some of your stuff before about the concept of ground fighting and how it is viewed in that culture. You eluded to such things or I might have taken it wrong.

[Dragonzbane76]

Ground "finish" moves are more than just arm bar, leg bar, and choke. Many TCMA skills can be applied there too. Moves such as:

- smash the back of your opponent's head on the hard ground when he falls.
- drop your sharp elbow on the back of your opponent's head, heart, rib area, ...
- drop your knee on your opponent's chest, stomach, groin area, ...
- kick the back of your opponet's head when he is down.

this is what i'm talking about here. why not add to the "tool" bag. Most guys when they hit the ground have no idea what to do and flip about like a fish out of water. grappling in what ever sense gives you a conception of control, gives you a calmer persona when confronted with this area and you are able to capitalize on it. Either in different strikes or being able to move to gain leverage of said striking, or just to get up so you can strike again. It's a win win to know this. But it still amazes me that many in the traditional community tend to think it won't happen. That they are safe in their perseption of the fighting arts enough to believe that it won't happen when a very high percentage of fights go to the ground.

[bawang]

Just curious is this a chinese honor thing? I've read some of your stuff before about the concept of ground fighting and how it is viewed in that culture. You eluded to such things or I might have taken it wrong.

in a lot of traditional combat sports, the number one purpose is entertainment. ground fighting is extremely boring to watch. the second one is to prove your toughness and manliness. in a lot of cultures crawling on the ground is not considered manly. straddling another man is not manly.

[YouKnowWho]

this is not a chinese thing, ...
Agree with you 100% there. My teacher told me that there was a Chinese wrestling master who loved to wear a white sock on one foot while had normal shoe on the other. In the wrestling match, as soon as he got hold on his opponent, he would give his leading leg to his opponent to grab. No matter how his opponent handled his leading leg, he could always make his opponent to flip over his leading leg. After the wrestling match, he could show to the audience (Chinese loved to watch wrestling matches) that his white sock had no dirt on. Today, people may not understand how much skill that involved to be able to do that. Through the entire wrestling match, he was standing on one leg all the time. That kind of good old day will never come back. :(

[bawang]

all fights end on the ground. when you knocked out you on the ground. when you get sweeped or taken down youre on the ground. when youre killed your on the ground. humans are naturally not comfortable on the ground. so all traditional wrestling and boxing in the WORLD says if you are on the ground you lose.
i appreciate UFC giving me a wake up call but gracies were also trying to sell themselves. this "complete fighter" "alive training" is all bullsh1t.


i trained very little ju jitsu in high school. i permanently injured my spine trying to train with friends who were juicing. i almost quit martial arts forever. i lost 30 pounds of muscle in the aftermath. today im only 140 pounds. ground fighting is the most depressing and stupidest sh1t ive ever done. i kept trying to "save kung fu" when i should have been having fun with martial arts.


maybe mma is here to stay like baseball and football. maybe it will go like the hoola hoop, disco, limp bizkit. who knows. just train whatever you like. except wing chun. fuk wing chun up the ass.

[B.Tunks]

So all I have to do is knock you down and jump on top of you?

all he has to do is not fight you.

[Drake]

all he has to do is not fight you.

He can't anyway. I'm not real.

[B.Tunks]

He can't anyway. I'm not real.

D@mn, i was tryna provoke something too...

[Brule]

.............i trained very little ju jitsu in high school. i permanently injured my spine trying to train with friends who were juicing. i almost quit martial arts forever. i lost 30 pounds of muscle in the aftermath. today im only 140 pounds. ground fighting is the most depressing and stupidest sh1t ive ever done. i kept trying to "save kung fu" when i should have been having fun with martial arts.

May i refer you to celestial master for some fixin' up dude? You know who...CYMac. Maybe you have evil demon spirits haunting you and need exorcism.

PS: Your mom looks different.....

[Iron_Eagle_76]

PS: Your mom looks different.....

She lost a lot of weight from her Army Trong training!!:p

[SPJ]

if you are a striker, you would KO the opponent asap. everything else is set up for that.

if you are a thrower, you throw the opppnent asap, everything else is set up for your throw.

if you are ground straddler, straddle on body, staddle on leg or straddle on arm etc

you straddle the opponent asap, everything else is a setup for your straddling.

yes, you like to train to be all around or all zones.

but you still want to focus on or hone in your strength or strong points.

:)

[SPJ]

li yu da ting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkNujztlQGU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL_wPkahHFI

wu long jiao zhu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VxyeJ_BGyc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHvApqmpe7Q

you may search more.

:)

[wenshu]

So, why should we practice all area's of fighting? Why do people become "comfortable" in a certain zone and not think they should expand? Being younger I thought that what i learned was "enough." Never taking into consideration that pressure against my offense was going happen. Humbling in most senses I found that traveling around to other schools and placing myself in difficult positions presented me with a clear view of why we should do just that. Place ourselves in "uncomfortable" positions.

Any thoughts?

Orr, A.H., (2005) The Genetic Theory of Adaptation
http://pages.uoregon.edu/pphil/courses/genarch/orr2005.pdf

From an article about strength and conditioning, applicable to combat training.


http://www.8weeksout.com/2011/03/01/a-matter-of-intensity/
Getting caught up in all the details of training, it can be easy to lose sight of the big picture and forget that your body doesn’t care if you have big or small muscles, a high or low bodyfat percentage, or how many pull ups or kettlebell swings you can do. The only thing your body really cares about is its own survival.
On the most fundamental level, it is this innate drive of the body to stay alive and maintain equilibrium within all of its many systems that creates the opportunity for performance and/or physique improvements to be made. Adaptation to various training stimuli is nothing more than the body’s defense mechanisms at work, plain and simple.
You place a stress on the body by lifting weights, doing some form of cardiovascular exercise, etc., and the body in turn responds to this stress by adapting to it so that it is better suited to handle this stress the next time. The exact adaptations that take place, of course, depend on the specific type of training stress that you put your body under, but the end result is the same. The next time you train, the body is now better equipped to meet the physical demands you are placing on it.
Because of the body’s increased preparation, the same level of training now presents a relatively lower level of physical stress on the body and the body’s defense mechanisms will not be called into action like before. In order to continue to see results, you inevitably have to place a greater stress on the body to once again force it to respond by adapting.
This process of repetitive stress and adaptation provides the underlying foundation for improved performance as well as general health and fitness. And it is this incredibly adaptability of the human body in response to physical stressors that keeps us all alive in the first place.

We control to a certain extent the level of stress we place on ourselves. The tendency being towards working in a less stressful environment, i.e. we tend to train our strengths and avoid or diminish our weaknesses. Ideally we should be placing ourselves under greater stress where we are weakest while maintaining our strengths.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is a trick though:
First we must identify our strenghts and weaknesses and then overcome our weaknesses VIA our strenghts.
EX:
If your strength is striking ( and that means one of 2 things:
You have KO power and/or you strike better than you do anything else) then you must overcome your weakness ( ex: ground work) by adapting your strenghts to WORK in THAT area.
You don't become a grappler, you become a striker that can strike withing the grappling context: Clinch hitting, "dirty boxing", GnP.

[wenshu]

So... eat bitter. :)

Eating bitter goes without saying at this point. To be precise; eat bitter where you are weakest. If you are already eating sh*t, eat worse sh*t.

Unless one's strength is eating sh*t. Then time is better served adapting to putting a warm, moist dent in a musty Laz-E-Boy emptying the contents of a pallet of Hot Pockets.


There is a trick though:
First we must identify our strenghts and weaknesses and then overcome our weaknesses VIA our strenghts.
EX:
If your strength is striking ( and that means one of 2 things:
You have KO power and/or you strike better than you do anything else) then you must overcome your weakness ( ex: ground work) by adapting your strenghts to WORK in THAT area.
You don't become a grappler, you become a striker that can strike withing the grappling context: Clinch hitting, "dirty boxing", GnP.

You're talking about in situ combat tactics.

I am talking more about after you eat some knees in the clinch, you go to the gym and eat more knees in the clinch on purpose, work neck bridges, posture, escapes etc until you adapt and become at the very least nominally capable in the clinch.

Then, when competing, sparring, fighting off baseheads, whatever, you can work it into your tactics.

[Lebaufist]

IMO, kick-punch-wrap-throw-finish is very logic combat sequence. Whether your "finish" is arm bar, leg bar, choke, or just simple striking on your opponent's face will be all up to you.

Thanks for the new sig line.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You're talking about in situ combat tactics.

I am talking more about after you eat some knees in the clinch, you go to the gym and eat more knees in the clinch on purpose, work neck bridges, posture, escapes etc until you adapt and become at the very least nominally capable in the clinch.

Then, when competing, sparring, fighting off baseheads, whatever, you can work it into your tactics.

Oh yes, I agree, my point was that just because you HAVE to learn to fight while grappling, that doesn't mean you "give up" your striking if that is your strength.
Although many do end up discovering that grappling is actually their strength.

[wenshu]

Excellent point; maintenance is a necessity.

[Dragonzbane76]

Oh yes, I agree, my point was that just because you HAVE to learn to fight while grappling, that doesn't mean you "give up" your striking if that is your strength.
Although many do end up discovering that grappling is actually their strength.

pretty much sums up what I was trying to get across. Meaning that learning how to grapple will give your striking better perspective.

I've pretty much always known my strength was grappling. Just always had a "nack" for it. Wrestling/JJ/Judo. But that never stopped me from going out and learning the stand up and traditional aspects of MA. I did not totally rely on my grappling skills to get me through. I went out and found the other Zones of MA and started learning them. It evened out the rough edges.

So why do Traditionalist get caught up in such dogma?

[YouKnowWho]

So why do Traditionalist get caught up in such dogma?

The TCMA form training is the problem. The day that you give up your form training, the day that you will find "cross traing" is easier than you think. How hard can it be if you just mix jab, cross, hook, upper cut, ..., front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, ... , single leg, double legs, hip throw, ..., arm bar, leg bar, choke, ..., as your daily training?

[sanjuro_ronin]

pretty much sums up what I was trying to get across. Meaning that learning how to grapple will give your striking better perspective.

I've pretty much always known my strength was grappling. Just always had a "nack" for it. Wrestling/JJ/Judo. But that never stopped me from going out and learning the stand up and traditional aspects of MA. I did not totally rely on my grappling skills to get me through. I went out and found the other Zones of MA and started learning them. It evened out the rough edges.

So why do Traditionalist get caught up in such dogma?

They don't.
Don't confuse a traditionalist with a ****head :D

The tradition of virtually every MA is a tradition of fighting effectiveness.
The developers of virtually every MA developed them to be effective in fighting and made whatever modifications and adaptions needed to KEEP them effective.
That SOME asswipes ****ed that up has ZERO to do with tradition and everything to do with them being a bunch of pussies and to chicken **** to pressure test and evolve their MA.
**** them and the horse they rode in on.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I would also like to add that the douchebags who talk about "tradition" and what Master this and Master that would have or did do fail to realize these masters of old would gladly learn new material to add to their arsenal, because this is how most modern Kung Fu systems originated. Not to mention their techniques were pressure tested and worked or they would not continue to study and perfect them.

Like Ronin said, don't get stuck in what these idiots and their "dogma" see as tradition. Even people with open eyes can be blind if they don't want to see.

[Dragonzbane76]

They don't.
Don't confuse a traditionalist with a ****head


haha maybe i picked the wrong word for it then. :)

maybe i should have put that in " " instead.

but i got what your saying.

[bawang]

theres something you might not know about me. i smoke crack.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

theres something you might not know about me. i smoke crack.

http://5dollarcrackheads.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/hungry-crackhead.jpg

[Dragonzbane76]

theres something you might not know about me. i smoke crack

well that explains it. :)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I believe looking at the overall format of Sanda can give good feedback as to where the "zones" of fighting should be. Punch (da), Kicks (ti), Throw (shuai), Submit (na) are the principles of Sanda as a fighting system. The key is to take your weakest area and work to improve as well as continuing to better and improve your strong areas.

Take into account these four zones and principles are used to describe the CQC of the Chinese military. The sport versions seem to focus more on the kickboxing and throwing aspect. But again, it provides a good base.

[lance]

So, why should we practice all area's of fighting? Why do people become "comfortable" in a certain zone and not think they should expand? Being younger I thought that what i learned was "enough." Never taking into consideration that pressure against my offense was going happen. Humbling in most senses I found that traveling around to other schools and placing myself in difficult positions presented me with a clear view of why we should do just that. Place ourselves in "uncomfortable" positions.

Any thoughts?

Why all zones should be practice all area ' s of fighting ?
To me theres punching range , kicking range and grappling range , if you can stop your opponent in each of these ranges of fighting then why not , it ' ll save you energy and time . then in this way you don ' t need to get tired .

Why do people become comfortable in a certain zone and not think they should expand ? Maybe because they think they stop their opponent at their own comfortable range , in other words they know that they can stop their opponent at the ranges that they want , without worrying about their opponent . Some people have a mean intuition that they can stop their opponent at the range they are comfortable with .

Being younger I though that what I learned was enough . Never taking into consideration that pressure against my offense was going to to happen . Humbling in most senses I found out that traveling around to view of why we should do just that . Place ourselves in uncomfortable position .

To me when you ' re young that ' s when you begin to learn about life in general , depends what age you in ? Martial arts is bascally a tool to defend yourself when the situation arises . Your opponent pushes you around , or punches you for no reason at all , what are going to do ? That ' s what you learn martial arts for to learn how to take care of yourself when you unexpectantly get yourself into this kind of situations . If you learn kenpo , kung fu , thai boxing or boxing , you can protect against someone pushing you around or being able to avoid the punch .
If you like to kick your opponents' butt or rather fight with your legs than your hands then the korean arts will do you good or you would rather choke or tie your opponent on the ground then you know that both wrestling and grappling is good .

Uncomfortable position like when you ' re sitting on the ground , you can use leg take downs or sweep the opponent off the ground , or you can come up with your own individual ideas . When you learn the combative and ground fighting arts , that is mentioned in this thread , you learn to handle yourself in any range .
Your moves can be countered so use your imagination when you are training for your life in general .

[Dragonzbane76]

Why do people become comfortable in a certain zone and not think they should expand ? Maybe because they think they stop their opponent at their own comfortable range , in other words they know that they can stop their opponent at the ranges that they want , without worrying about their opponent . Some people have a mean intuition that they can stop their opponent at the range they are comfortable with .


most of what you said above I agree with. only thing I have to say is that people whom think they can stop anyone at range find that they end up on there back side and negate all they have put time and effort into perfecting. Mean intuition goes only so far. I'm not sure if you were stating the above quote as such or opposite.

anyways thanks for reply.

[sanjuro_ronin]

We have seen the likes of Chuck Lidell and Randy Couture, amongst others, as fighters that have a preference for a certain range and what happens to them when they get caught outside that range OR even when they get bested in THAt range.

Always good to have more than one way to lick a *****.
:D

[Frost]

We have seen the likes of Chuck Lidell and Randy Couture, amongst others, as fighters that have a preference for a certain range and what happens to them when they get caught outside that range OR even when they get bested in THAt range.

Always good to have more than one way to lick a *****.
:D

Im going to disagree with you for once!

all fighters have a preference for a certain range, but to say chuck or randy didnt practise all ranges or werent comfortable on the ground or wrestling would be wrong.

chuck was a great wrestler as well as stand up guy, very good at getting back to his feet, cant think of many that put him on his back he lost a few fights in his prefered zone, and in those fights its not like he was getting thrashed and didnt have anywhere else to take the fight, he didnt need to take them to the ground because he was doing very well until the bomb dropped

randy was a good boxer and great wrestler, good on his feet and on the ground, its not like he wouldnt fight standing, or wouldnt take the guy down or would only stay in one range

[sanjuro_ronin]

Im going to disagree with you for once!

all fighters have a preference for a certain range, but to say chuck or randy didnt practise all ranges or werent comfortable on the ground or wrestling would be wrong.

chuck was a great wrestler as well as stand up guy, very good at getting back to his feet, cant think of many that put him on his back he lost a few fights in his prefered zone, and in those fights its not like he was getting thrashed and didnt have anywhere else to take the fight, he didnt need to take them to the ground because he was doing very well until the bomb dropped

randy was a good boxer and great wrestler, good on his feet and on the ground, its not like he wouldnt fight standing, or wouldnt take the guy down or would only stay in one range

They had their preference and fought to the strong points and won more often than they lost based on how well they kept it in their preferred zone.
That's all I am saying.






***** !

[Frost]

They had their preference and fought to the strong points and won more often than they lost based on how well they kept it in their preferred zone.
That's all I am saying.






***** !

but cant that be said about every fighter that ever fought? anderson likes to keep it standing, GSP take it to the ground, not many have an equal record of winning standing and on the ground

The problem becomes when fighters dont train their weaknesses as much as they train their strengthes.....or when they come across people simply better than them!


*************!

[sanjuro_ronin]

but cant that be said about every fighter that ever fought? anderson likes to keep it standing, GSP take it to the ground, not many have an equal record of winning standing and on the ground

The problem becomes when fighters dont train their weaknesses as much as they train their strengthes.....or when they come across people simply better than them!


*************!

Yep, 100%.
We fight with our strengths and the weak link isn't our 'weknesses", its the inabiblity to keep it where we are strongest.
Why?
In my view we all have weakneses, no one has a compete game, it just doesn't happen, but many make the mistake of making their weak game their A game so as to develop it to the best they can.
Nothing wrong with that, in theory, but in practice if you are "designed" for Speed, don't focus on running marathons, get it?

[Frost]

Yep, 100%.
We fight with our strengths and the weak link isn't our 'weknesses", its the inabiblity to keep it where we are strongest.
Why?
In my view we all have weakneses, no one has a compete game, it just doesn't happen, but many make the mistake of making their weak game their A game so as to develop it to the best they can.
Nothing wrong with that, in theory, but in practice if you are "designed" for Speed, don't focus on running marathons, get it?

nope disagree 100% with you.....:) actually agree totally but i would say i think more make the mistake of thinking they can impose their A game so well they dont need to bring their B game up to a good enough level, or arent willing to stop training what they enjoy and what makes them great enough to actually become good enough at their weaknesses to impose their strengths on good competition

I am thinking of grapplers that grapple 5 times a week and do 1 or 2 stand up sessions even when their grappling in ADCC level and their striking sucks, and more to the point i am thinking of guys i actually know who are great standup fighters and prefer to training most of the week with other greath stand up guys, and only do a couple of sessions wrestling a week then wonder why in international comps they get submitted left and right

people forget how many years it took to get to the level they are in there A game, and arent prepared to put the same commitment into the rest of their training, and certainly dont want to cut down on the stuff the like doing

[sanjuro_ronin]

nope disagree 100% with you.....:) actually agree totally but i would say i think more make the mistake of thinking they can impose their A game so well they dont need to bring their B game up to a good enough level, or arent willing to stop training what they enjoy and what makes them great enough to actually become good enough at their weaknesses to impose their strengths on good competition

I am thinking of grapplers that grapple 5 times a week and do 1 or 2 stand up sessions even when their grappling in ADCC level and their striking sucks, and more to the point i am thinking of guys i actually know who are great standup fighters and prefer to training most of the week with other greath stand up guys, and only do a couple of sessions wrestling a week then wonder why in international comps they get submitted left and right

people forget how many years it took to get to the level they are in there A game, and arent prepared to put the same commitment into the rest of their training, and certainly dont want to cut down on the stuff the like doing

You have in a way, made my point.
A natural striker, coming in to the game, will never get tot he level of a natural grappler ( we can substitute the term preferred for natural is you like).
And to focus on grappling as a counter to grappling when they get to grappling is incorrect, since the better grappler will, quite typiclaly, win.
What the striker must do is get "good enough" in grappling to allow for his strong game ( striking) to be the deciding factor.
Reverse case for the grappler.

[Frost]

You have in a way, made my point.
A natural striker, coming in to the game, will never get tot he level of a natural grappler ( we can substitute the term preferred for natural is you like).
And to focus on grappling as a counter to grappling when they get to grappling is incorrect, since the better grappler will, quite typiclaly, win.
What the striker must do is get "good enough" in grappling to allow for his strong game ( striking) to be the deciding factor.
Reverse case for the grappler.

but what is good enough?

and how to you get there?

the biggest problem i see is not people spending too much time training their weaknesses, strikers trying to become grapplers for example but its spending too much time on their strengths and not admitting to themselves that they need to work on their weaknesses in order to become better than that and only paying lip services to training them.
You see it with Champio level BJJ guys not being able to stand long enough with strikers to get the takedown and vise verse

Will a Thai guy ever become an ADCC champ? no but if he continues to work on his strengths 4 times a week and his weaknesses only twice a week he will get owned at the higher levels in MMA.

There must come a time where you put your strengths on maintanence mood and really work on your weaknesses if you want to improve

[Iron_Eagle_76]

It's hard to put in an equal amount of training into each aspect, especially considering the amount of years and hard training it takes to be an A level competitor in both aspects of the game, so I believe you always have fighters who fall into the striker or the grappler category.

We may see a shift in this trend, however, with modern martial arts schools training both disciplines from the start with new people. So if martial artist A trains at a gym that does equal stand up with grappling you may see a trend of fighters that actually are equally balanced in skill. I still feel people will gravitate to one or the other with one being their strong point, but that's just my opinion.

[Frost]

It's hard to put in an equal amount of training into each aspect, especially considering the amount of years and hard training it takes to be an A level competitor in both aspects of the game, so I believe you always have fighters who fall into the striker or the grappler category.

We may see a shift in this trend, however, with modern martial arts schools training both disciplines from the start with new people. So if martial artist A trains at a gym that does equal stand up with grappling you may see a trend of fighters that actually are equally balanced in skill. I still feel people will gravitate to one or the other with one being their strong point, but that's just my opinion.

True, and im not argueing you should train and become equal in them, I am arguing too many fighters wont stop training what they enjoy long enough to become proficient enough in the other areas that they need

Their comes a time when you have developed enough skill in one area that you can drastically cut your training time and still maintain that level, this is true in all sports

And what I see is an unwillingness amongst some fighters to do this, if you have spent a decade training Thai 4 times a week and fighting, you will still maintain that level of skill or close to it with just one or two sessions a week, and you can use the time saved to become better at other areas, but guys are unwilling to stop doing what they like and are comfortable with

[sanjuro_ronin]

The issue is that not enough fighters bring what they do best INTO what they do worse.
Going on with the striking grappling issue, strking skill takes more time to develop AND maintain than grappling skills.
Striking is more ballistic and explosive and potential more damaging and as such, one can't train full contact striking everyday, but one can roll all out everyday.
Generalizations yes, but for the moment we need to generalize a bit.
So how does a striker maintain or even develop his striking more is he is not devoting more hours to grappling?
Time being finite and all that, something HAS to give, right?
No.
You adapt the striking game to grappling.
You become a striker that can strike in ALL ZONES and you do that by grappling and understanding how and where your strikes will work under hose conditions.
It is still "striking training" but in a grappling "zone".
Sure you will learn and become proficient in submissions and positioning along the way, but your striking will also improve.

Or at least that has been my experience for myself.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

True, and im not argueing you should train and become equal in them, I am arguing too many fighters wont stop training what they enjoy long enough to become proficient enough in the other areas that they need

Their comes a time when you have developed enough skill in one area that you can drastically cut your training time and still maintain that level, this is true in all sports

And what I see is an unwillingness amongst some fighters to do this, if you have spent a decade training Thai 4 times a week and fighting, you will still maintain that level of skill or close to it with just one or two sessions a week, and you can use the time saved to become better at other areas, but guys are unwilling to stop doing what they like and are comfortable with

I see your point, as I am guilty of this myself. I enjoy stand up, I practice and train much more stand up, and I always will because that is where my enjoyment is at. However, I do not compete in MMA and train my grappling for self defense and for a balancing approach to my martial arts. I don't care how good I ever got at stand up, if I don't have at least some basic level of understanding of the clinch and grappling, I'm screwed.

That being said, I have noticed as I get older my enjoyment of wrestling and judo have become much stronger. I enjoy being able to feel comfortable in a zone (grappling) that I used to be very uncomfortable in. But with age I think comes one of two things. 1 people continue to train only what they know and are good at and get better in that realm while avoiding another 2. people train all aspects of all martial arts, maybe not equally, but moreso than in the past.

I have gotten to a point with my training where stand up, sparring, bag/mitt work, grappling, stance training, forms, breathing and chi kung, and all other martial related training methods are practiced and enjoyed. I'm not saying they are practiced equally, but all are practiced. But this is what gives me enjoyment and makes my training worthwhile.:)

[YouKnowWho]

but guys are unwilling to stop doing what they like and are comfortable with
This is very true indeed. The 1st step for any stand up grappler to "enolve" is to convert gi to no-gi (unless you are a wrestler). Even that, people had tried, failed, felt descourage, and never wanted to try again. Some people may feel that certain qi skill cannot be used in no-gi environment and their effort that had spent in the past might be wasted. That kind of thinking, "to hold on something that you feel comfortabl with" is the biggest stumbing block for "evolution".

For some unknown reson, it just seems to me that it's very nature for a grappler to learn some striking skill, but it's harder to convince a striker to learn some grappling skill no matter how hard you may have tried. May be all grapplers understand that they have to pass the striking range before they can get into the clinching range. To master some striking skill is a must. But some striker just believe that they will never have to get into the clinching range. That kind of unrealistic thinking make you feel like a chicken talks to a duck.

[Lucas]

who amongst this thread believe that this mindset should include weapons of various forms? ei: fire arms, blades, sticks, poles, etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

who amongst this thread believe that this mindset should include weapons of various forms? ei: fire arms, blades, sticks, poles, etc.

For sure, a blade can really change the outcome of any fight, so can a 2 x 4 across the face.
Guns go without saying of course.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

who amongst this thread believe that this mindset should include weapons of various forms? ei: fire arms, blades, sticks, poles, etc.

How about a couple cannons!!

http://www.rock107.ca/morningshow/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/bianca-beauchamp-bikini.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

How about a couple cannons!!

http://www.rock107.ca/morningshow/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/bianca-beauchamp-bikini.jpg

Excellent work my friend !

[Lucas]

teh deadlY!

[Dragonzbane76]

For some unknown reson, it just seems to me that it's very nature for a grappler to learn some striking skill, but it's harder to convince a striker to learn some grappling skill no matter how hard you may have tried. May be all grapplers understand that they have to pass the striking range before they can get into the clinching range. To master some striking skill is a must. But some striker just believe that they will never have to get into the clinching range. That kind of unrealistic thinking make you feel like a chicken talks to a duck.

I've always been a "natural" at grappling and feel the most comfortable in that zone. I learned early on that to work to my streng. I had to close the distance in order to grab. Once I started learning the striking game I came to appreciate it more so. I agree with you that most people I've bumped into that come from a religious striking background tend to think the clinch range does not even exist. I can't tell you the amount of times I've went to other schools and been asked to spar. When we step up and I throw some combinations and then follow in behind to grab the person stops and says "what are you doing?" Then they go onto say they just want to work stand up without grabbing. :confused:

I'll mumble under my breath most times and just work stand up but it happens a lot.

[vociferor]

Many of you will not understand the importance of learning grappling, wrestling (or defenses against these arts) until you've rolled around with a practitioner and realized, perhaps for the first time in your entire life, that you just experienced a simulation in which your arm, leg, ankle, or neck was broken. Or that being choked to the point of blacking out means far more in a real-life situation than a practice one. In real-life, if you get choked out, you can get your skull beaten out of your head and never wake up again. But in practice, we laugh with our friends every time they best us and do it again.

My JJ instructor told me, (and whether this is true I do not know, but in my personal experience with real fights, I do not doubt) "80% of all fights go to the ground"... at least they did when I initiated a throw (judo), a takedown (wrestling), or a well-executed stand-up (grappling) maneuvar.

The last fight I got into was with a boxer who had the most solid stance of anyone I have ever fought, either in real life or in practice. After I thew him and we got on the ground, he was helpless (as he had no experience in this area at all. He had no idea What To Expect, or How To Defend). I can honestly tell you, I would've lost that fight- and horribly- had I of not known a bit of judo and grappling.


Case in point: don't be a prude, learn new things. Keeping your mind open and learning about a different martial art than the one you "normally" practice, could indeed give you a far greater perspective of the one you already practice.

The key-point is on the emphasis of the word Martial ARTIST, not Martial ROBOT. The Artist continually creates: continues to expand, evolve, learn more about him/herself. The Robot simply fulfills a series of functions, as if it is programmed to do what it has been shown, or to do what it has been told.

Some people are fine being robots, but I find it much more fulfilling to identify as an Artist.


For those who say/think Jiu Jitsu is "gay", think this all you want. Heck, when I took my girlfriend to JJ practice, she remarked after an hour of watching men roll around on the mats how "gay" it was... and perhaps from her perspective (someone who basically didn't understand what she was seeing), it can remind someone a lot of sex [I say that seriously, and without humour] But as we left the gym that day I answered her by saying, "it's only gay until someone gets their neck snapped"


As far as ground-fighting or grappling is concerned in a situation where there are multiple attackers: you obviously don't want to roll around on the ground with 3 guys trying to team up on you (not unless you have absolute confidence that you can nullify them). But even experienced grapplers would be hesitant, which is why I decided it would be Paramount to learn Kung Fu, which is an art capable of handling the problem of multiple attackers (and yet, so is boxing).

Let me also not forget to mention how I was in a fight with a guy once who was a far superior striker than myself... but after 2 minutes of giving it his all and still not being able to knock me out, he lost all energy and tired out (he was also a smoker); I however, jogging on a regular basis, had more endurance than him and outlasted him until he wore out, THEN I was the better fighter.


I hate jogging, but I do it for that reason (including health benefits, of course).

You never know what you're going to have to face, or what you will be up against.


Perhaps it is that you are the better all-around fighter than the guy who starts a fight with you on a scaffolding ledge 40 stories high... and your balance is shabby, yet his- having worked in the construction industry for over 5 years- is superior to your own. Perhaps this one little, otherwise unthought about factor is what determines the outcome of the fight and the decision between life and death? Perhaps.

This is what separates the artists from the robots.


I don't think many people consider Bruce Lee a great martial artist because he was talented in the area of mechanical ability. He's considered great because he was a philosopher First. Everything else: followed. That's an Artist.

[Violent Designs]

How about you get off your high horse and accept the fact that some people don't really care about learning other ranges?

Example: sports fighters in either grappling or kickboxing who focus on one sport because that is their **** job or their passion and they just don't care about the other arena.

[wenshu]

Enjoyment of kickboxing makes baby Guan Yu cry.

[Lokhopkuen]

<SNIP>
My JJ instructor told me, (and whether this is true I do not know, but in my personal experience with real fights, I do not doubt) "80% of all fights go to the ground"... at least they did when I initiated a throw (judo), a takedown (wrestling), or a well-executed stand-up (grappling) maneuvar.
<SNIP/>.



Vociferor I enjoyed reading your post you touch on some valid points from a logical perspective. Wrestling and grappling are two essential elements in relation to becoming a well rounded martial arts practitioner.

IMHO I feel that it is important to start the training very early in life.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/mma.jpg

After all experience is the key to excellence:D

[vociferor]

How about you get off your high horse and accept the fact that some people don't really care about learning other ranges?

I accept this in the same manner that I recognize not all people choose to be healthy, conquer their demons (resolve complexes), or otherwise improve their quality of life.

I accept this in the same manner I realize that not all people who practice martial arts use it as a meditation to enhance their awareness. That there are, on the contrary, many people who learn the arts to become bullies of other men.

I just wanted to highlight the differences between Robots and Artists.

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVGPEgRZwIw


what about this zone

if u dont train this ju jitsu is incomplete

[Violent Designs]

I accept this in the same manner that I recognize not all people choose to be healthy, conquer their demons (resolve complexes), or otherwise improve their quality of life.

I accept this in the same manner I realize that not all people who practice martial arts use it as a meditation to enhance their awareness. That there are, on the contrary, many people who learn the arts to become bullies of other men.

I just wanted to highlight the differences between Robots and Artists.

Wait, so because someone doesn't find grappling interesting, it means they are the same as someone who doesn't choose to A) improve their quality of life, B) choose to be intentionally unhealthy, or C) choose to be unaware idiots?

Once again, get off your high horse.

Your definition of "artist" is based on a set of biased, personal interpretations based on your personal, biased understanding of martial arts.

Does the painter who doesn't find learning to play music interesting mean that the painter is an idiot scumbag who chooses to be unhealthy, uneducated, and ignorant?

Your logic is ****ing flawless, buddy.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

@ Vociferor

Don't make the mistake of thinking because this is a Kung Fu forum that there are not people here who also train in grappling arts. Plenty of posters here with Shuai Jiao training and who also train BJJ, wrestling, Judo, ect. You make some valid points but they have been brought up here 3,888,726,214 times, just to let you know.;)

[wenshu]

Every time someone likes Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Zhang San Feng drowns a bag of baby unicorns in the Yellow river.

[bawang]

do you know what unicorns did in the nanking massacre?

[wenshu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz8ycL4g8N8

[vociferor]

Violent Designs,

I made that comment in regard to people who refuse to step out of their comfort zone and do things they wouldn't otherwise do in order to expand their minds, awareness, or sense of self. I did not make that comment towards people who refuse to learn jiu-jitsu specifically.

Nor did I mean to imply that anyone who refuses to put themselves in unfamiliar (valuable-learning) situations is by default "a scumbag", "an idiot", or "intentionally unhealthy".

But: I do acknowledge a significant divide between the personality type that suffers one's self in order to improve, and the one that does not.

Each unto their own.