Animals of Wing Chun

[LoneTiger108]

It's great to see animals represented in Wing Chun, as I feel that it helps us connect more to our Traditional roots in Shaolin.

I learnt Snake, Crane, Tiger, Leopard and Dragon characteristics. Other Wing Chun systems replace the Dragon with Monkey, but the Dragon is definitely connected more to the Opera/Red Junks. Other Wing Chun systems use no animals at all, but the most famous are the Snake & Crane. Of course there is also that European 'Fox' in more recent accounts.

Do you have terms that reflect animal characters in your Wing Chun? Do you learn additional Animal Forms in your curriculum similar to other TCMAs from the South like Hung Gar, Choy Lee Fut or Cho Gar?

It would be good to hear your views and experiences :)

[LoneTiger108]

The Wing Chun single leg Crane Vs The Eagles Claw!!

It's me posturing with Sifu Julian Dale at The Martial Arts Show 2011

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/226716_10150246140079532_691719531_8594778_1315710 _n.jpg

[Hardwork108]

In our system we have Tiger Claw elements, such as using the claw to lap or to attack the throat. There are leopard fist and Dragon fist attacks as well. The essence of the Dragon itself is embedded within the system.

To my knowledge, there are no monkey elements in our system, but then I am not an advanced student, so there may be some of these aspects present, as well.

[Vajramusti]

Animals in wing chun? Nah- not in mine... though some metaphors can help...though they can also confuse specially beginners without good tacit knowledge of wing chun.
My wing chun includes some analysis of human joints and their roles in both stancing and motion.
The Ng Mui mythical story of watching a snake and a crane should not be taken literally but can be useful in understanding, if taken metaphorically about fusing crane's and some crane system's fairly straight structure and some snake style energies and motions. Fast mouse stepping sometimes. Quick cat turns sometimes. But these can be practiced and taught without any reference to animals.

BTW-- I had no trouble understanding the crane step kick that Segal taught Machida and was used in knocking out Couture. Elements of it are there in one piece of footwork adapted from chum kiu.

joy chaudhuri

[Dragonzbane76]

didn't know WC had any base of animals in it. Of course I've never trained in it and do not proclaim to know what it has.

most systems i'm familar with have 5 primary animals. dragon, crane, tiger, serpent, leopard.

Does WC have a set primer for these animals?

[Vajramusti]

didn't know WC had any base of animals in it. Of course I've never trained in it and do not proclaim to know what it has.

most systems i'm familar with have 5 primary animals. dragon, crane, tiger, serpent, leopard.

Does WC have a set primer for these animals?
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No- no set primers or sets and no dragons and tigers and leopards walking around-but Lone Tiger will probably think of something.

But lines and circles and angles and rhythms and timings and balances a plenty!

joy chaudhuri

[Dragonzbane76]

But lines and circles and angles and rhythms and timings and balances a plenty!


kinda what I envisioned it as such.

[Graham H]

There are no animals in Ving Tsun!!!!!!...only in some people's minds!

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Good replies so far, and as expected some attempts again to dismiss the suggestion entirely! ;)

I have never learnt an animal 'form' as such in my Wing Chun learning but have references to them within literature and curriculms which can directly affect the 'character' of a technique. Of course I am talking about 'stage presence' here too. Exhibiting certain characteristics and being from the Opera I see no reason why we wouldn't have things like this in Wing Chun.

This one is for Joy:
What do you call the single leg practice??

I ask that you look more into your terms used, especially if you're versed in the Cantonese curriculums, as it is here that I have heard the animal references. For those who totally dismiss the existence of these stuffs, it's fine, I'm not trying to force anyone to believe in myths and legends!

Just asking if anyone has a similar experience :)

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1096709]It's great to see animals represented in Wing Chun, as I feel that it helps us connect more to our Traditional roots in Shaolin.



Why is it great??

What makes you think WC has roots in Shaolin?

And how does this help WC as an effective self defense system?

Wouldn't it be "great" to try it out against other stlyes and situations than live in yesteryear???

Regards
GlennR

[Graham H]

and as expected some attempts again to dismiss the suggestion entirely! ;)



...it needed dismissing entirely because Its incorrect!!....but then again what happens in Foshan Wing Chun I don't know too much about. No animals in Yip Man - WSLVT thats for sure!

IMO Ving Tsun has evolved away from traditional shaolin styles of animal influenced kung fu for a very good reason. Those people who are trying to add things that shouldn't be there are taking away the effectiveness of the system. In fact the more I become aware of these problems I'm reluctant to call my system Wing Chun at all. Maybe I'll just name it Wong Shun Leung Kung Fu because most Wing Chun is laughed at nowadays and I agree with them.

I watched a documentary on Wing Chun last night that accompanied my Ip Man 2 DVD. From a Wing Chun point of view all I can say is that it was embarrassing and I feel sorry for all those that believe that what they are watching is a good representation of this system!!!!

Yip Man and WSL will be spinning in their graves!!!

GH

[Hardwork108]

There are no animals in Ving Tsun!!!!!!...only in some people's minds!

GH

It seems that there are animals in some lineages, so respect it and live with it.:D

[Hardwork108]

...it needed dismissing entirely because Its incorrect!!....but then again what happens in Foshan Wing Chun I don't know too much about. No animals in Yip Man - WSLVT thats for sure!

IMO Ving Tsun has evolved away from traditional shaolin styles of animal influenced kung fu for a very good reason. Those people who are trying to add things that shouldn't be there are taking away the effectiveness of the system. In fact the more I become aware of these problems I'm reluctant to call my system Wing Chun at all. Maybe I'll just name it Wong Shun Leung Kung Fu because most Wing Chun is laughed at nowadays and I agree with them.

I watched a documentary on Wing Chun last night that accompanied my Ip Man 2 DVD. From a Wing Chun point of view all I can say is that it was embarrassing and I feel sorry for all those that believe that what they are watching is a good representation of this system!!!!

Yip Man and WSL will be spinning in their graves!!!

GH

Your lineage may not have animal elements, but other lineages do. The presence of the Dragon is intrinsic in many kung fu styles.

The Mainland Chinese lineage that I practice has Tiger elements that manifest later on in training. For example the beginners are taught to lap sao in a "normal" wing chun manner, but furhter along training the lap becomes a Tiger Claw grab and pull. Tiger style throat attacks are also taught. The tiger claw is then taught in other Chin-na type attacks/grabs.

The fingers are trained intensly at the latter stages of the system, to fascilitate the tiger elements as well as of course for the Biu Jee aspects including vital point strikes.

There are also Crane type strikes and blocks with the hand as well. We also have leopard, phoenix and Dragon fist strikes.

What do animal elements do for Wing Chun? They bring in much needed richness and further dimensions. This is releveant in view of the fact that most Wing Chun taught nowadays is rather limited in dimensions and essence.

[Vajramusti]

Your lineage may not have animal elements, but other lineages do. The presence of the Dragon is intrinsic in many kung fu styles.

The Mainland Chinese lineage that I practice has Tiger elements that manifest later on in training. For example the beginners are taught to lap sao in a "normal" wing chun manner, but furhter along training the lap becomes a Tiger Claw grab and pull. Tiger style throat attacks are also taught. The tiger claw is then taught in other Chin-na type attacks/grabs.

The fingers are trained intensly at the latter stages of the system, to fascilitate the tiger elements as well as of course for the Biu Jee aspects including vital point strikes.

There are also Crane type strikes and blocks with the hand as well. We also have leopard, phoenix and Dragon fist strikes.

What do animal elements do for Wing Chun? They bring in much needed richness and further dimensions. This is releveant in view of the fact that most Wing Chun taught nowadays is rather limited in dimensions and essence.
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I don't do current "mainland" wc-good Ip Man wc is good enough for me..I don't have to think of animals to do chin na, train the fingers, etc...all extensions of continued wc training when done well.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

...it needed dismissing entirely because Its incorrect!!....but then again what happens in Foshan Wing Chun I don't know too much about. No animals in Yip Man - WSLVT thats for sure!

Interesting comment :o You don't know what's happening in the Martial Centre of China (well it was in the days of Leung Jan) yet you rubbish the thought of something different than your own learning?

Well, there are animals represented in Ip Man - Lee Shing - Joseph Man teachings and if you have learnt even the basic language of certain moves you will again see evidence of this 'animal influence' in what you do too.


...IMO Ving Tsun has evolved away from traditional shaolin styles of animal influenced kung fu for a very good reason. Those people who are trying to add things that shouldn't be there are taking away the effectiveness of the system.

You're opinion here is a bit 'screwed' to be honest with you. As far as my own research goes, all the traditional elements were present in Ip Mans earlier training in Wing Chun and he purposely removed them when he started teaching in HK, leaving only a trace in the names of certain techniques.

So, in retrospect, these are not 'added' they have always been there and Ip Man only removed them to differentiate WCK from the other schools at the time. To fit in the 'marketplace' that existed in that era.


In fact the more I become aware of these problems I'm reluctant to call my system Wing Chun at all. Maybe I'll just name it Wong Shun Leung Kung Fu because most Wing Chun is laughed at nowadays and I agree with them.

You wouldn't be doing WCK or WSL any harm by doing so imho.

[LoneTiger108]

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I don't do current "mainland" wc-good Ip Man wc is good enough for me..I don't have to think of animals to do chin na, train the fingers, etc...all extensions of continued wc training when done well.

joy chaudhuri

Yes Joy, I don't do current "mainland" WCK either. Just good old Ip Man WCK with Lee Shing/Joe Mans personality stamped on it. I have, at least, met and watched the Foshan groups demonstrate in person and can see the similarities and differences. Still, I've yet to see anything else from the mainland that catches my attention so I can see your view too.

You didn't even answer my question :(

http://www.londonwingchun.com/images/Yip_Man_wooden_dummy.jpg

What do you call this single leg technique?

[Graham H]

Your lineage may not have animal elements, but other lineages do. The presence of the Dragon is intrinsic in many kung fu styles.

I'm not concerned with other lineages outside Ip Man. Tried Foshan Wing Chun once upon a time.......rubbish!!


The Mainland Chinese lineage that I practice has Tiger elements that manifest later on in training. For example the beginners are taught to lap sao in a "normal" wing chun manner, but furhter along training the lap becomes a Tiger Claw grab and pull. Tiger style throat attacks are also taught. The tiger claw is then taught in other Chin-na type attacks/grabs.

Not my thinking but keep up the good work!!!


The fingers are trained intensly at the latter stages of the system, to fascilitate the tiger elements as well as of course for the Biu Jee aspects including vital point strikes.

In my lineage Bil Jee has nothing to do with training the fingers and vital point strikes. Maybe Yip Man invented a whole new system.


There are also Crane type strikes and blocks with the hand as well. We also have leopard, phoenix and Dragon fist strikes.

There are no animal blocks in my lineage. Maybe if cranes and snakes should fight humans. Tigers and leopards only bite and maul.....how strong are your teeth??


What do animal elements do for Wing Chun? They bring in much needed richness and further dimensions. This is releveant in view of the fact that most Wing Chun taught nowadays is rather limited in dimensions and essence.

Animal elements do nothing for Wing Chun and thats why we don't have them. Get a grip!!:D.......with your tiger claws!! lol

Monkey

[Graham H]

Interesting comment :o You don't know what's happening in the Martial Centre of China (well it was in the days of Leung Jan) yet you rubbish the thought of something different than your own learning?

Well, there are animals represented in Ip Man - Lee Shing - Joseph Man teachings and if you have learnt even the basic language of certain moves you will again see evidence of this 'animal influence' in what you do too.



You're opinion here is a bit 'screwed' to be honest with you. As far as my own research goes, all the traditional elements were present in Ip Mans earlier training in Wing Chun and he purposely removed them when he started teaching in HK, leaving only a trace in the names of certain techniques.

So, in retrospect, these are not 'added' they have always been there and Ip Man only removed them to differentiate WCK from the other schools at the time. To fit in the 'marketplace' that existed in that era.



You wouldn't be doing WCK or WSL any harm by doing so imho.

I'm not replying to that albeit I do HK Ving Tsun if it makes you feel better. No house pets in my kung fu!!!!

[Graham H]

Yes Joy, I don't do current "mainland" WCK either. Just good old Ip Man WCK with Lee Shing/Joe Mans personality stamped on it.

You don't do Ip Man Ving Tsun Spencer otherwise we would be on the same page!!!! WSL said that he teaches "EXACTLY" the same system as he was taught by Yip Man. If your stuff isn't in what I practice then Yip Man obviously didnt teach it to WSL and I would hazzard a guess thats it because it doesn't work!!!

Tiger

[LoneTiger108]

You don't do Ip Man Ving Tsun Spencer otherwise we would be on the same page!!!! WSL said that he teaches "EXACTLY" the same system as he was taught by Yip Man. If your stuff isn't in what I practice then Yip Man obviously didnt teach it to WSL and I would hazzard a guess thats it because it doesn't work!!!

Tiger

Nice try Graham/Tiger ;)

What will really grab you is, yes, I do train Wing Chun from Ip Man, as Lee Shing was a direct student of him, and my Sifu a direct student of Lee Shing, and me etc etc! Lee Shing was even an earlier student than WSL but I know that doesn't mean much these days. And yes, Lee Shing was known for his own extensive research into WCK, learning from other Masters prior to meeting Ip Man. And yes, WSL knew and respected Lee Shing of course, but you wouldn't know this right?

WSL said many things, as did every other WCK Sifu who promoted their styles in the UK, including my own Kung Fu Uncle Sifu Goh! The 'Young Ones' led the way while my Sigung continued teaching and running restaurants.

Some would say it's better NOT to teach exactly how you were taught (especially WCK!) as it is a completely personal journey and your teaching will change depending on the student. This happened with ALL of Ip Mans students so to come here and make ridiculous claims about WSL or anyone else having the 'real' WCK from Ip Man is actually quite laughable!

You fight and argue with me for nothing but self promotion and it's all a little jaded now to be honest. Sorry for the bluntness :( but if what I trained didn't work I would have left WCK ages ago. Everyone's an individual and we just don't know eachothers stories, so let us just leave it at that eh...

[Vajramusti]

This one is for Joy:
What do you call the single leg practice??
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Single leg practice? Firstly I am not big on labesl but big on trying to do things correctly and well.

Perhaps you mean practices?? Quite a few. Not an exhaustive list but....

1. single leg standing

2. single leg with fook gerk, bong gerk, tan gerk

3.single leg blocking drills

4. single leg turning drills.

5. chi gerk

etc.

joy

[TenTigers]

hmmm..well,
Fukien Wing Chun Bak Hok is Crane,
Yuen Kay San's WCK, from what a teacher who does that art is snake and crane,
Gulo WCK has animal named techniques, if I'm not mistaken,
Yip Man's movements are identical to snake and crane techniques found in many other Southern Siu-Lum systems..
and there's the Siu Lin Tao/Emie snake and crane and..

soooo..you don't have to call them snake or crane or anything...
or....you can call them anything you like.
it doesn't change anything, it doesn't make it more or less effective.

"a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."



(I call it snake and crane, btw...;-p )

[TenTigers]

This one is for Joy:
What do you call the single leg practice??
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Single leg practice? Firstly I am not big on labesl but big on trying to do things correctly and well.

Perhaps you mean practices?? Quite a few. Not an exhaustive list but....

1. single leg standing

2. single leg with fook gerk, bong gerk, tan gerk

3.single leg blocking drills

4. single leg turning drills.

5. chi gerk

etc.

joy
I think he was lookin' for "Crane Stance," or "Gum Gai Duk Lop"

[Hardwork108]

I'm not concerned with other lineages outside Ip Man. Tried Foshan Wing Chun once upon a time.......rubbish!!

So that makes all Foshan Wing Chun, rubbish??

By the way, there are at least half a dozen Wing Chun lineages in Mainland China.




Not my thinking but keep up the good work!!!

Thank you I will.




In my lineage Bil Jee has nothing to do with training the fingers and vital point strikes.
And obviously you are not at all interested why another lineage from Mainland China, as the case may be, trains the fingers, uses claw techniques and other animal aspects, as part of its curriculum?


Maybe Yip Man invented a whole new system.

I am sure that you are aware that there are people wondering wether Yip Man taught the complete system, or everything that he was exposed to, in his early years.


There are no animal blocks in my lineage. Maybe if cranes and snakes should fight humans.
Well, I will tell you that usually unarmed combat between snakes and humans, turn out pretty bad for the humans...;)

As for the cranes, you may be surprised by the power they can generate from their fragile looking bodies...;)



Tigers and leopards only bite and maul.....how strong are your teeth??

Tiger and Leopard TCMA methodologies are not about biting. Sometimes the "kung fu" people in this forum surprise me with their "knowledge"....:rolleyes:

Let me give you a hint, all the animals mentioned so far have a certain "way" about them that humans do not have. That is, they can only attain it after a relatively long term training, with KNOWLEDGABLE sifu. This means that most people who claim to train kung fu - even the animal styles - will have no clue as to what I am talking about.




Animal elements do nothing for Wing Chun and thats why we don't have them.

"We"??? So, now you represent the whole of the Wing Chun family and lineages on the planet? LOL!

Has it not occured to you that you may be missing fundamental aspects from your kung fu practice? Perhaps you should think about it, a little?



Get a grip!!:D.......with your tiger claws!! lol

You would NOT want me to get a grip on you with my claws... BELIEVE ME!


Monkey

Wow, that is the first time that I have seen sign their post, with the word "monkey".

You don't seem to have high opinion of yourself, Do you?:D

[GlennR]

You didn't even answer my question :(



And you didnt answer mine

[LoneTiger108]

And you didn't answer mine (questions)

Reason being I had already 'given' you some answers and thought it would be covered as the thread moves forward...


Why is it great??

"It's great to see animals represented in Wing Chun, as I feel that it helps us connect more to our Traditional roots in Shaolin."


What makes you think WC has roots in Shaolin?

Because it DOES according to the verbal traditions of my own Sifu.


And how does this help WC as an effective self defense system?

When we engage animal characteristics into our kung fu, it isn't just about this hand becomes a claw and this foot becomes a hidden tiger, it's also because we adopt the strategies of the animal which has already been studied in combat through early Shaolin study.

Having a snake strategy, for example, is great to protect someone else (like a bodyguard) because you will stand your ground and not be distracted, advancing and retreating back to your 'nest' quicker than the eye can see. Attacking the nervous system accurately so no follow through (ie. wrestling) is required, especially against group attacks. Expanding yourself to seem larger than you are to absorb the attack. All this stuff, and more, is related to the snake.


Wouldn't it be "great" to try it out against other stlyes and situations than live in yesteryear???

Yes and no.

I feel that the WCK community would fair better if they exchanged within themselves first because it's very obvious from this forum and other research I have done that everyone is not on the same songsheet! Then we can gradually build programs that train the best of our fighters to go out into the MMA arena 'fully euipped' with the WCK toolbox (to coin an old TN phrase!) so the fighting that is projected and seen is WCK through and through.

That sort of skill level IS acheivable, but it all depends on whether people can work together, like around the World! And personally I think that will never happen unfortunately for the wannabe MMA fighters who leave WCK for better training :o

[LoneTiger108]

Gulo WCK has animal named techniques, if I'm not mistaken

Yes it does, according to what I have researched. And that's a great example of the language being so important. We have 'Fook Fu' Hidden Tiger footwork that is represented in Chum Kiu too, so it isn't just the Kulo 12/22/40 point methods that uses these terms. They're present in all good Ip Man WCK imho.


Single leg practice? Firstly I am not big on labesl but big on trying to do things correctly and well.

Perhaps you mean practices?? Quite a few. Not an exhaustive list but....

1. single leg standing

2. single leg with fook gerk, bong gerk, tan gerk

3.single leg blocking drills

4. single leg turning drills.

5. chi gerk

etc.

joy

Thanks for the list Joy, but if I may I will use just no. 1 as my example.

What is the Chinese term for single leg standing practice?

Coming from the Jun Mo school, this was called 'Dook Long Jong Lin' Single Dragon Fundamental Practice, and it is practised throughout the system from wooden man to pole, or in fact anytime you stand on one leg!

Why is it related to the Dragon?? Maybe we should ask the Red Boat people because it is intinsically linked to Opera performance. ;)

FWIW The Ip Man pic I posted IS one of the many Wooden Man Dook Long techniques...

[GlennR]

Yes and no.

I feel that the WCK community would fair better if they exchanged within themselves first because it's very obvious from this forum and other research I have done that everyone is not on the same songsheet! Then we can gradually build programs that train the best of our fighters to go out into the MMA arena 'fully euipped' with the WCK toolbox (to coin an old TN phrase!) so the fighting that is projected and seen is WCK through and through.

That sort of skill level IS acheivable, but it all depends on whether people can work together, like around the World! And personally I think that will never happen unfortunately for the wannabe MMA fighters who leave WCK for better training :o[/QUOTE]

Ok, got no problems in regards to your animal connection. Not my thing but if thats your thing full power to you

But youre wrong about the WC exchange program to help WC in the world of MMA
While there's merit in cross training/ sparring with other WC, youll never achieve high results unless you mix it up with other styles.... especially the current MMA guys.
GlennR

[Graham H]

You would NOT want me to get a grip on you with my claws... BELIEVE ME!


I'm not in the habit of letting men touch me but if you are ever in my area come on over. I have some nail clippers!!! :D ;)


GH

[Graham H]

...................I don't believe you!!! ;)

[CFT]

What is the Chinese term for single leg standing practice?

Coming from the Jun Mo school, this was called 'Dook Long Jong Lin' Single Dragon Fundamental Practice, and it is practised throughout the system from wooden man to pole, or in fact anytime you stand on one leg!The general CMA term is 'gam gai duk lap' in Cantonese, as mentioned by TenTigers. aka 'Golden Rooster stands on one leg'.

金雞獨立

'duk' means single/one
'lap' means vertical, i.e. standing.

It is more poetic in Chinese. The standard English translation doesn't do it justice.

The imagery is quite fitting I guess. Roosters strutting about the farmyard occasionally stand on one leg. I can't see how the dragon comes into it really.

[LoneTiger108]

The general CMA term is 'gam gai duk lap' in Cantonese, as mentioned by TenTigers. aka 'Golden Rooster stands on one leg'.

金雞獨立

'duk' means single/one
'lap' means vertical, i.e. standing.

It is more poetic in Chinese. The standard English translation doesn't do it justice.

The imagery is quite fitting I guess. Roosters strutting about the farmyard occasionally stand on one leg. I can't see how the dragon comes into it really.

Thanks for sharing that :)

Again, it just proves my point that animal references are ingrained in TCMA. BUT I think what you're missing is the fact that the line I mentioned, Dook(Duk) Long Jong Lin, IS A WING CHUN KUIT from my own training experience.

I know that learning 'general' terms may be of use, especially if you want to converse with other systems, but my point is we are learning Wing Chun, and Wing Chun has its own slang for almost everything. Code-names if you like, to disguise the intent.

The Dragon reference is more linked into the 'look and feel' of a Dragons tail ie. having a steady and tight upper leg (representing the base of the tail), but loose and flexible lower leg (representing the end of the tail) Also, the Dragon can symbolize steadiness and longevity, hence SLT on 1 leg!!! ;)

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.londonwingchun.com/images/Yip_Man_wooden_dummy.jpg

As for this picture of Ip Man, notice his single leg stance. Look at the alignment of the upper thighs to the calf, as if the lower leg is simply hanging from the knee. Then, if you look closer at the foot itself, I call this Poon Long Gerk (enclosed Dragon foot)

This posture is very very famous in Canton Opera, and fundamental to all legwork training. And to share a little idea with you all, I have used such positioning on the Wooden Man to 'leap' up onto the arms then head of the wooden body where I settle into a single leg stance to practise SLT!!! :eek: ;)

Not recommended for everybody, but something that you would experience if you learnt any Lion Dancing or Mui Faa pole stepping combinations. Both of which I was exposed to a little during my time learning Wing Chun at Jun Mo. :)

[LoneTiger108]

Here is a way to train Snake & Crane ideas within your interaction (Chisau) training...

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1097503&postcount=15

Enjoy! :)

[Eric_H]

Does WC have animal sets?

Not unless they were added later, like in the Vietnam Branch of WC.

Does it have "attitudes" and tools based on the animals? Sure.

Crane Wing Arm, Eagle Wing Arm, Dragon Claw. Snake Intent, Crane Intent.

What does that really amount to? Not a whole heck of a lot outside of the Siu Lam signature.

[Graham H]

http://www.londonwingchun.com/images/Yip_Man_wooden_dummy.jpg

As for this picture of Ip Man, notice his single leg stance. Look at the alignment of the upper thighs to the calf, as if the lower leg is simply hanging from the knee. Then, if you look closer at the foot itself, I call this Poon Long Gerk (enclosed Dragon foot)

This posture is very very famous in Canton Opera, and fundamental to all legwork training. And to share a little idea with you all, I have used such positioning on the Wooden Man to 'leap' up onto the arms then head of the wooden body where I settle into a single leg stance to practise SLT!!! :eek: ;)

Not recommended for everybody, but something that you would experience if you learnt any Lion Dancing or Mui Faa pole stepping combinations. Both of which I was exposed to a little during my time learning Wing Chun at Jun Mo. :)

That's not a single leg stance ffs! Is there even such a thing in Ving Tsun???? No!!!! Its a kick and that particular picture is of Yip Man posing for a photo NOT practicing!!!

I thought you would know that. ****!! You have proved me wrong again!! Basic stuff that. There are more problems with that photo but I don't want you to burst my faith in your knowledge! :D

G

[LoneTiger108]

That's not a single leg stance ffs! Is there even such a thing in Ving Tsun???? No!!!! Its a kick and that particular picture is of Yip Man posing for a photo NOT practicing!!!

:D You do make me laugh sometimes. This picture is from Ip Chuns 116 Wooden Man book. It's in my 3rd set.

And OFCOURSE ALL of the pictures that Ip Man produced for his students were 'posed' for, for accuracy AND with 'terms', like in Cantonese, so people wouldn't forget what he was trying to show.

I guess that you do have a name for this specific posture/technique too? Oh! That's right, it's a 'kick' :o


You have proved me wrong again!! Basic stuff that. There are more problems with that photo but I don't want you to burst my faith in your knowledge! :D

G

G, I don't think you, of all people, could burst my happy WCK bubble so don't worry yourself about such things. Y'know I love everything about this forum don't you? All the diversity and propoganda.

And even the guys that seem so blinkered by one mans 'way' have their moments. ;)

[Graham H]

And even the guys that seem so blinkered by one mans 'way' have their moments.)

Blinkered?? LMAO....That's like saying that after years of driving around in rubbish cars and you eventually drive a Ferrari you all of a sudden think the Ferrari is the best car in the world. You have been blinded by its brilliance!!! Ha Ha....I'll stick to my Ferrari mate and you you're Robin Reliant!! pmsl

G

PS..Please don't come out with an analogy of car preferences please. Ferrari, Lambo, MaClaren F1.....who cares???... They are better than a 1981 Ford Escort!!!

[LoneTiger108]

So you 'presume ' I am referring to you?? :rolleyes:

Interesting...

Actually, answer me this, do you open your YJKYM by dropping the knee and opening the toes first or the heels first?

I would bet on the toes first, and THAT opening move is named after the Dragon in the family I have learnt from. So, if you're happy with what you do and are not interested in the language or culture your art originates, I can't do anything about that. There's is also nothing wrong in that either. There is space in this World for everyone, if only people can accept differences...

[Graham H]

....................I'm not trying to smother your happiness mate!!! How is the course of Prozac going?? :D:D:D:D:D

[Graham H]

So you 'presume ' I am referring to you?? :rolleyes:

Interesting...

Ok maybe we have all been blinkered by Yip Man himself!! spooky!! lol

[LoneTiger108]

Ok maybe we have all been blinkered by Yip Man himself!! spooky!! lol

Now THERE'S an interesting concept ;)

[Graham H]

Actually, answer me this, do you open your YJKYM by dropping the knee and opening the toes first or the heels first?
.

Ha! The reason for opening in the stance that way is so we can adopt the correct position so as to train it. Its a way of adopting the correct foot position. What we are training in this stance (and it is a training stance and not a fighting stance until Chum Kiu) is two rear leg positions once the stance starts to function by stepping. The turning in of the toes and the bringing in of the knee gives us the perfect structure for supporting the punch and so we can push forward with no collapsing of our body structure. It's all about bio-mechanics and how we can best develop the body for fighting. As this position isn't natural to us we train it for long periods which also helps to build strength in the legs. Its the same idea as why we bring the elbow into the center and push it forward for training the punch in the form.


It is common knowledge that WSL explained these ideas as correcting the bad habits we accrue through daily life. We don't do anything that requires the elbow to be used in such ways nor do we do anything that requires us to turn the toes in and sink the knees. These attributes are necessary for Ving Tsun so the forms teach us and develop these methods.

If WSL used this method of explanantion then Yip Man would have. It's common sense.

I don't even open the stance when I practice. I just get in it. I only teach it because it helps beginners get things right. When they understand this then there is no need for them to do it either.

GH

Maybe the dragon hanging leg stances were left in the cupboard with all the other junk!! LOL

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1097663]I don't even open the stance when I practice. I just get in it. I only teach it because it helps beginners get things right. When they understand this then there is no need for them to do it either.

GH

You teach people??

BWAHAHAHAHA!!

Sorry, couldnt help myself ;)

[LoneTiger108]

If WSL used this method of explanantion then Yip Man would have. It's common sense...

...Maybe the dragon hanging leg stances were left in the cupboard with all the other junk!! LOL

First of all, let's start with your usumption that WSL taught in exactly the same manner as Ip Man. Wrong imho. WSL taught how he wanted to teach, and made further refinements he thought were required. He also taught the 'hardcore' westerner, which Ip Man did not, so his teaching would have been different. Now THAT makes sense ;)

Secondly, you can't even answer my simple question without babbling on about nothing so please! Refering to things as 'junk' because you simply do not understand them is a bit childish, and WCK was not invented for kids y'know?

If you have nothing else to contribute here on this thread... :confused:

[Graham H]

First of all, let's start with your usumption that WSL taught in exactly the same manner as Ip Man. Wrong imho. WSL taught how he wanted to teach, and made further refinements he thought were required. He also taught the 'hardcore' westerner, which Ip Man did not, so his teaching would have been different. Now THAT makes sense ;)

Secondly, you can't even answer my simple question without babbling on about nothing so please! Refering to things as 'junk' because you simply do not understand them is a bit childish, and WCK was not invented for kids y'know?

If you have nothing else to contribute here on this thread... :confused:

I"m only repeating what I have read from interviews with Wsl and also from conversations with myinstructor. It is also based on discussions I've had in Hong Kong with people that were there mate so you can disagree all you like. I"m not bothered. I just like the forum entertainment.

[Graham H]

I said same system not same manner. Get it right me old China. No pun intended. LOL

[LoneTiger108]

I"m only repeating what I have read from interviews with Wsl and also from conversations with myinstructor. It is also based on discussions I've had in Hong Kong with people that were there mate so you can disagree all you like. I"m not bothered. I just like the forum entertainment.

All is cool, and I'm not 'disagreeing' with you 'mate'. I'm simply questioning your reasoning for having no Animal references in your Wing Chun and you can not give me a sensible answer. You have none because others have said so. I have animals because my Sifu said so. It's all speculative in the end dude.

Seriously though, if you want to research the style I would venture outside Hong Kong ;) but that's just a personal view. ;)

[LoneTiger108]

Let's talk about 'legwork', or what most refer to as 'kicking' in Wing Chun. Look at this clip and tell me what you see...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdaC_ZtwuPM&NR=1

[Hardwork108]

Let's talk about 'legwork', or what most refer to as 'kicking' in Wing Chun. Look at this clip and tell me what you see...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdaC_ZtwuPM&NR=1

Nice one Spencer. Many people do not realize the importance of kicking in WC and wrongly think that this part of the art is "weak".

Going back to the video, we do such combinations a little differently, as we are taught to block and then attack with the same leg. We use blocks such as tan gerk, pong gerk and pack gerk, followed by a kick.

Thanks again for posting.:)

[anerlich]

Look at this clip and tell me what you see...


I see a demo, two big guys trying very hard not to hurt Carol, taking it in turns rather than both jumping on her at the same time, and exaggerating the effects on them of her kicks ... or legwork, or whatever you're calling it this week. Obviously she was trying not to hurt them, too.

She does appear to have some kicking skills, and it was a good demo as far as demos go.

Was there a prize for the nearest correct entry?

Why don't you tell us what you want us to see?

[LoneTiger108]

Nice one Spencer. Many people do not realize the importance of kicking in WC and wrongly think that this part of the art is "weak".

Yes legwork/kicking is an important factor of Wing Chun. A very important factor imho, but I wouldn't go so far to say many don't realize this. I think we all do but some just choose not to train it as much as the hands. Big mistake. That's why I liked the clip. Demo or not I think just moving at such a pace gives a good insight into the legwork on it's own.

AND, no matter what level your at you should understand that when you lift the leg/attack/defend bong, tan or fook gerk, as a Dragon, Crane,or even rooster, you are simply on ONE leg!

To even think that there is no single leg practise in Wing Chun is blindness. :confused:

[PalmStriker]

SNAKE style influence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eao5mDDMI-U&feature=related YKS Wing Chun.:)

[Graham H]

or even rooster, you are simply on ONE leg!

Classic! :D:D


To even think that there is no single leg practise in Wing Chun is blindness. :confused

There isn't. It was invented by somebody who IMO did the most damage to Ving Tsun when he left Hong Kong. A lot of people jumped on the badwagon after his flase claims about being a closed door student of Ip Man.

If anybody reading this is thinking...well we have chi gerk.....yep....you have been fooled as well. You lucky people. ;)

Stevie Wonder

[mvbrown21]

....There isn't. It was invented by somebody who IMO did the most damage to Ving Tsun when he left Hong Kong. A lot of people jumped on the badwagon after his flase claims about being a closed door student of Ip Man.

If anybody reading this is thinking...well we have chi gerk.....yep....you have been fooled as well. You lucky people. ;)

Stevie Wonder

I'm actually curious who you're referring to. I know we have Chi Gurk in our system and it came down straight from the top. I know that Ho Kam Ming didn't pass along anything that he didn't learn from Ip Man himself. Not trying to start anything here, just curious what you're talking about?

[wolf3001]

Other than the obvious Wing Arm (Bong Sau) we use the term Monkey Grip when executing a Lap Sau. I have seen a few people grip the attackers arm with the thumb but I was always warned against this and we are told to use a Monkey grip. I really doubt that it has much to do with the Monkey system though. However from everything I have read on Wing Chun Ng Mui was a Crane practitioner. It has always been said that Wing Chun was heavily based on the Crane system Fujian White Crane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKkxjLaiUnE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVnuWZqatfA&feature=related

I have read that the White Crane system also influenced many systems of Karate. It is also said that Snake Style can be seen as an influence of Wing Chun. Because Wing Chun is said to be a mixture of other arts im going to guess that there are many animal characteristics but not all arts are considered animal systems. I wouldn't call Wing Chun an animal art it just contains animal based techniques here and there. I have even heard Pak Mei the White Eyebrow system has influence in Wing Chun it is believed by some that Pak Mei was one of the 5 Elders who escaped the temple. He is also regarded by some as a traitor supposedly but he may have had his reasons there are various stories. Pak Mei from what I have read is a very deadly art and was taught in secret for a long time because many regarded Pak Mei himself as a traitor.

I haven't studied many arts I did very little Tae Kwon Do as a kid I hardly remember much other than the basics. I own a book Kung Fu Elements and many other books. Chinese arts are a major influence to my fighting techniques. I throw in a lot of stuff into what I actually use in a fight. I use it in class while sparring my friends to help us learn how to deal with other things. I was taught Phoenix Eye strikes in class and we did some stuff with William Cheung over a weekend. I use leopard fist at times as I like it for various targets. I have even used a Crane Beak.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuUWpT_Pcf0

[Graham H]

I'm actually curious who you're referring to. I know we have Chi Gurk in our system and it came down straight from the top. I know that Ho Kam Ming didn't pass along anything that he didn't learn from Ip Man himself. Not trying to start anything here, just curious what you're talking about?

Oooooooo and start another war of words??? Not today! It's Sunday and I'm praying to a false God like the rest of the population.

What do you think Chi Gerk brings to fighting??? I also used to practice Chi Gerk but like most things common to generic Wing Chun I don't anymore!!!

Chi Gerk only makes sense if one doesn't understand Chi Sau. The whole "sticky" idea is incorrect! I know that most people will protest that "chi" translates as sticky so arms stick to arms and legs stick to legs but IMO this is just another kung fu fallacy that people in silky pyjamas fool each other with!

If somebody is punching and kicking hell out of you your chi gerk skills will elude you like many other things that can happen in the Wing Chun training hall. If you are not convinced then try at and film it so I can see and if you can make it work then I would like to be taught it myself. I know that won't happen from experience. ;)

GH

[Graham H]

Matt

I see you have been posting on PB's website. If I were you I would take the advice that you were given on there. Maybe it won't be for you but I personally think it will be a positive move. At least you will have more of an idea of the WSL method.

Although I have never met Augustine Fong I did practice it under a student of his. It cost me a lot of money and wasted time. Maybe it wasn't a good representation of Fong's way, in which case I would ask why?, but there were many things that were how can I say it.........? Stupid!

My opinion of course before the Fong followers jump down my neck!!:D

GH

[Graham H]

.......................................need I say more??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ui6rj58DA0

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1098319]Matt

I see you have been posting on PB's website. If I were you I would take the advice that you were given on there. Maybe it won't be for you but I personally think it will be a positive move. At least you will have more of an idea of the WSL method.

Although I have never met Augustine Fong I did practice it under a student of his. It cost me a lot of money and wasted time. Maybe it wasn't a good representation of Fong's way, in which case I would ask why?, but there were many things that were how can I say it.........? Stupid!

My opinion of course before the Fong followers jump down my neck!!:D

------------------------------------------
Same old same old repetitious drivel.
Some more PB selling! And guilt by pseudo-association again--- studying under some unknown student of unknown ability .Fong sifu has no school in the UK.I have rolled with WSL twice-as I have rolled with several others IM first generation students-but I don't care to make catty comments on a chat list.
BTW-You are not doing the late WSL and his reputation any favors.

joy

[Wayfaring]

Let's talk about 'legwork', or what most refer to as 'kicking' in Wing Chun. Look at this clip and tell me what you see...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdaC_ZtwuPM&NR=1

1) A WCK short from a "3 Stooges" clip?

2) An audition tape for a Jackie Chan movie?

3) A Chinese girl with a practiced "mean mug"?

[Vajramusti]

1) A WCK short from a "3 Stooges" clip?

2) An audition tape for a Jackie Chan movie?

3) A Chinese girl with a practiced "mean mug"?
-----------------------------------------------------------

If it's an audition- not a bad one.

joy c

[mvbrown21]

Matt

I see you have been posting on PB's website. If I were you I would take the advice that you were given on there. Maybe it won't be for you but I personally think it will be a positive move. At least you will have more of an idea of the WSL method.

Although I have never met Augustine Fong I did practice it under a student of his. It cost me a lot of money and wasted time. Maybe it wasn't a good representation of Fong's way, in which case I would ask why?, but there were many things that were how can I say it.........? Stupid!
GH


You're right Graham, I did post on PB's forum, back when I first entered this rather dysfunctional world of internet kung fu forums. See, unlike one of his student's students, I actually have a lot of respect for WSL and his method. And I wanted to share and also see sharing of others so that I could cultivate my mind to an openness that allows me to learn new things.

I've been on these forums for about 2-3 months now and I must say that by observation alone, whether it be this forum, or youtube comments, or other WC forums, the PB crew in general seem to all have this sort of arrogant attitude to them. I don't know what it is, whether PB's german translated over makes all of you think you're tough or just a result of PB himself. And it's kind of sad really, because at least the impression that I got from all the people that knew WSL was that he was an incredibly humble man. The David Peterson crew seems to be pretty cool and humble. What happened with you guys? Why such a stark contrast from what WSL represented?

[k gledhill]

You're right Graham, I did post on PB's forum, back when I first entered this rather dysfunctional world of internet kung fu forums. See, unlike one of his student's students, I actually have a lot of respect for WSL and his method. And I wanted to share and also see sharing of others so that I could cultivate my mind to an openness that allows me to learn new things.

I've been on these forums for about 2-3 months now and I must say that by observation alone, whether it be this forum, or youtube comments, or other WC forums, the PB crew in general seem to all have this sort of arrogant attitude to them. I don't know what it is, whether PB's german translated over makes all of you think you're tough or just a result of PB himself. And it's kind of sad really, because at least the impression that I got from all the people that knew WSL was that he was an incredibly humble man. The David Peterson crew seems to be pretty cool and humble. What happened with you guys? Why such a stark contrast from what WSL represented?

I for one am not trying to be arrogant, we just know who is wasting time and why. And trying to SAVE you YEARS of wasted time too......WE.. ME , GH, wasted time too. Its not that we chose you or anyone randomly or we are selling PB ! as Joy likes to dismiss.
My students all followed me too when I left my old 'thinking' and saw too the missing ideas and redundant misunderstood chi-sao drills that didnt work in fighting.
We all try to spar with VT , ask yourself why most turns into kickboxing after all the sticky stuff ?
Why you have found a plateau of ability ....I found one too, So did GH. I know guys much better than me who also left to study with PB. Philipp is most humble too...we are the forum voices, he would never do this.
But I can see from your clips that your doing EXACTLY what I used to do too, so did GH.....so we are seeing our old ways, its not that we are arrogant, we see our old selves...application thinking, wrong, tan sao blocks, flowing in chi-sao etc....sticky leg ...

Wasting time ? or not, its your time. You can only find out one way. I have shown this to a Fong student who visited me, no bloodshed, no fighting, he saw straight away the thinking and agreed. He was sad that he would have to unlearn the years of muscle memory. I dont make more money for saying this or try to recruit you. its your choice.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1098371]I for one am not trying to be arrogant, we just know who is wasting time and why. And trying to SAVE you YEARS of wasted time too......WE.. ME , GH, wasted time too. Its not that we chose you or anyone randomly or we are selling PB ! as Joy likes to dismiss.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good grief- he is not trying to be arrogant- in the next part of the sentence he is trying to save people and direct them to PB. The logic train passed him by.

BTW I have seen PB's videos-nice.. but not necessarily the greatest things since sliced bread.... even with the two dogmatic disciples' butter on them.


joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

I for one am not trying to be arrogant, we just know who is wasting time and why. And trying to SAVE you YEARS of wasted time too......WE.. ME , GH, wasted time too. Its not that we chose you or anyone randomly or we are selling PB ! as Joy likes to dismiss.


L o r d, it's hard to be humble,
When you're perfect in every way....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn1Qolv4ntQ

[k gledhill]

L o r d, it's hard to be humble,
When you're perfect in every way....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn1Qolv4ntQ

wayfaring do you do VT ?

[k gledhill]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1098371]I for one am not trying to be arrogant, we just know who is wasting time and why. And trying to SAVE you YEARS of wasted time too......WE.. ME , GH, wasted time too. Its not that we chose you or anyone randomly or we are selling PB ! as Joy likes to dismiss.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good grief- he is not trying to be arrogant- in the next part of the sentence he is trying to save people and direct them to PB. The logic train passed him by.

BTW I have seen PB's videos-nice.. but not necessarily the greatest things since sliced bread.... even with the two dogmatic disciples' butter on them.


joy chaudhuri

Ive read your articles , so not so fast there ...

[GlennR]

wayfaring do you do VT ?



Is that your latest question??

[Graham H]

Joy

Don't just sit there and watch videos like the rest!!! Go and spar with these guys!! If you can, PB himself then you can have concrete evidence to back up all your posts!! The proof is in the pudding not on your PC screen!!!

Don't come out with no BS like "I'm happy with my Wing Chun and my Sifu" either.

FYI one guy has already done it. He too used to mock and accuse me of being arrogant. He has left his old lineage now. I respect him for that. The rest of you haters I just think you're quite boring! :p :D

GH

[GlennR]

Joy

Don't just sit there and watch videos like the rest!!! Go and spar with these guys!! If you can, PB himself then you can have concrete evidence to back up all your posts!! The proof is in the pudding not on your PC screen!!!

Don't come out with no BS like "I'm happy with my Wing Chun and my Sifu" either.

FYI one guy has already done it. He too used to mock and accuse me of being arrogant. He has left his old lineage now. I respect him for that. The rest of you haters I just think you're quite boring! :p :D

GH

I asked it before and ill ask it again...... are you telling me no one has left PB to go to another WC lineage???

[LoneTiger108]

FYI one guy has already done it. He too used to mock and accuse me of being arrogant. He has left his old lineage now.

An interesting comment, as this seems to be exactly what you guys are looking for. You are the 'converters' to PB VT, and I suppose 'someone has to try' eh?

Thing is, you've hijacked this thread, like so many others, when you have had nothing to actually contibute other than sly comments and dismissal of the subject matter entirely. Man, you can't even see the locic of walking, so I can only preseume all you PB guys waddle around like ducks trying to keep both feet on the floor at all times! ;) Ah! I get it! Perhaps that's your Snake character?

Now, I don't know what sort of Martial Artist would want to be converted to your way of thinking, but good luck with it as it seems to be your forte.

[LoneTiger108]

-----------------------------------------------------------

If it's an audition- not a bad one.

joy c

I agree Joy.

And although many negatives can be said about 'performing' or 'acting' there are positives too. :)

[mvbrown21]

Joy

Don't just sit there and watch videos like the rest!!! Go and spar with these guys!! If you can, PB himself then you can have concrete evidence to back up all your posts!! The proof is in the pudding not on your PC screen!!!

Don't come out with no BS like "I'm happy with my Wing Chun and my Sifu" either.

FYI one guy has already done it. He too used to mock and accuse me of being arrogant. He has left his old lineage now. I respect him for that. The rest of you haters I just think you're quite boring! :p :D

GH

Hey Graham,

I'm happy with my lineage and Sifu! Does that mean I'm full of BS? I question everything too. Sh!t, I started a thread that questioned the very efficiency of WC itself! Does that make me closed off to the WSL way?

If I ever get the opportunity to visit a PB/WSL school, I will and it will be with an open mind. But I can tell you right now, that you, Kev, and all the other PB guys, whether on this forum or elsewhere, who make snark, condescending, close-minded remarks have forever burned an image in my mind of what your lineage is all about. And just like the guy's who "over-compensate" by driving a scratch-free gigantic 4X4, you are over-compensating yourselves as well.

It's ridiculous for you to tell someone their "path" is wrong and I often wonder how many good-heartened beginners stumbled upon this forum really excited about their new WC journey and left dis-heartened. I don't think that you or Kev realize how much you're hurting not only your own lineage but, more importantly, the legacy of Wing Chun itself. And it's sad that you don't see that.

“Nothing is more usual and more natural for those, who pretend to discover anything new to the world in philosophy and the sciences, than to insinuate the praises of their own systems, by decrying all those, which have been advanced before them. And indeed were they content with lamenting that ignorance, which we still lie under in the most important questions, that can come before the tribunal of human reason, there are few, who have an acquaintance with the sciences, that would not readily agree with them. ‘Tis easy for one of judgment and learning, to perceive the weak foundation even of those systems, which have obtained the greatest credit, and have carried their pretensions highest to accurate and profound reasoning. Principles taken upon trust, consequences lamely deduced from them, want of coherence in the parts, and of evidence in the whole, these are every where to be met with in the systems of the most eminent philosophers, and seem to have drawn disgrace upon philosophy itself." –

David Hume - Treatise of Human Nature

[k gledhill]

Is that your latest question??

just trying to get a handle on the guys here, thats all. :D

[k gledhill]

Hey Graham,

I'm happy with my lineage and Sifu! Does that mean I'm full of BS? I question everything too. Sh!t, I started a thread that questioned the very efficiency of WC itself! Does that make me closed off to the WSL way?

If I ever get the opportunity to visit a PB/WSL school, I will and it will be with an open mind. But I can tell you right now, that you, Kev, and all the other PB guys, whether on this forum or elsewhere, who make snark, condescending, close-minded remarks have forever burned an image in my mind of what your lineage is all about. And just like the guy's who "over-compensate" by driving a scratch-free gigantic 4X4, you are over-compensating yourselves as well.

It's ridiculous for you to tell someone their "path" is wrong and I often wonder how many good-heartened beginners stumbled upon this forum really excited about their new WC journey and left dis-heartened. I don't think that you or Kev realize how much you're hurting not only your own lineage but, more importantly, the legacy of Wing Chun itself. And it's sad that you don't see that.

“Nothing is more usual and more natural for those, who pretend to discover anything new to the world in philosophy and the sciences, than to insinuate the praises of their own systems, by decrying all those, which have been advanced before them. And indeed were they content with lamenting that ignorance, which we still lie under in the most important questions, that can come before the tribunal of human reason, there are few, who have an acquaintance with the sciences, that would not readily agree with them. ‘Tis easy for one of judgment and learning, to perceive the weak foundation even of those systems, which have obtained the greatest credit, and have carried their pretensions highest to accurate and profound reasoning. Principles taken upon trust, consequences lamely deduced from them, want of coherence in the parts, and of evidence in the whole, these are every where to be met with in the systems of the most eminent philosophers, and seem to have drawn disgrace upon philosophy itself." –

David Hume - Treatise of Human Nature

not hurting, trying to help it....you will see one day, remember I left a direct student of YM too.

[GlennR]

just trying to get a handle on the guys here, thats all. :D


Fair enough...... so which YM student were you originalllya student under?

And what was the most obvious diff you saw between him anfd PB when you came across him

[LoneTiger108]

Fair enough...... so which YM student were you originalllya student under?

And what was the most obvious diff you saw between him anfd PB when you came across him

Better still guys, you could always show a little respect and start your own "Lineage Change" thread if you have no reference to animals in your training ;)

Well, it's a thought :rolleyes:

"Gledhill"?? That would be Victor Kan at a guess? Man, he lost many many students...

[k gledhill]

Fair enough...... so which YM student were you originalllya student under?

And what was the most obvious diff you saw between him anfd PB when you came across him

V Kan .
The system was taught without the elbow development and why.
wristing sticky hands Chi Sao. No jum sao ....using tan as a block leaving the line.
And more....once I had certain elements from PB I could see the reasons for confusion and plain gaps in a lot of others too.
Not secrets or marketing.

[GlennR]

Better still guys, you could always show a little respect and start your own "Lineage Change" thread if you have no reference to animals in your training ;)

Well, it's a thought :rolleyes:

"Gledhill"?? That would be Victor Kan at a guess? Man, he lost many many students...



Fair enough...... ill start one now

Maybe you could also start one... "Please respect my thread so i dont have to roll my eyes"

And if you dont like the change, dont comment on the changed topic

[Graham H]

I asked it before and ill ask it again...... are you telling me no one has left PB to go to another WC lineage???

I dunno!!! Ask him!!

G

[GlennR]

I dunno!!! Ask him!!

G



Well youre waiving the PB flag!

[Graham H]

@ Matt

If it makes any difference to you I used to feel the same as you!!!! In fact I was put off going to PB by another person within my own lineage so I did what you lot haven't done yet......I went and saw for myself!!

....and yes you are full of BS and you are annoying me as much as I am annoying you. Shame we don't live closer!!!!!

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Fair enough...... ill start one now

Maybe you could also start one... "Please respect my thread so i dont have to roll my eyes"

And if you dont like the change, dont comment on the changed topic

Maybe I will continue :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: to things that I see as needing a bit of :rolleyes:

Obviously didn't take Roberts advice on that one either :D

Thanks for starting your thread. Respects where respects due ;)