Siu Lim Tao

[kowloonboy]

Hi, I am new to the form, and I am looking for answer for these these questions. In the Siu Lim Tao form, can the Fook Sao be used as a strike for application, as I have tried this on the wall bag and I believe it looks like a crane strike? Also after Fak Sao (movement 101 to 102 of the form), we get into the double Lan Sao, I know that Fak Sao is a strike, but is there another application when get back to the Lan Sao? So after Fak Sao we strike outward, when we return back to Lan Sao, is this an application for ridge hand inward as a strike to the back of the head or something? Please advise.

[YouKnowWho]

can the Fook Sao be used as a strike?

The WC 扶手(Fu Shou) is the same as the Mantis 刁手(Diao Shou). Both can be used for face striking.

[kowloonboy]

The WC 扶手(Fu Shou) is the same as the Mantis 刁手(Diao Shou). Both can be used for face striking.


Thanks. I have been trying to use Fu Shou on the wall bag, and I can see that it can be a strike. :) And after you have confirm that Diao Shou in Mantis is actually a strike, I can see that I can keep practicing the same technique as a strike. Thanks mate. :)

[Lee Chiang Po]

fook sao is not a strike.

[Phil Redmond]

NEVER use a fuhk sao for striking. Fuhk means control. Not strike. You can break the bones in the back of the hand if you strike with it. Now I know that some martial arts do it but they have problems with their hand when they get older. I know because my Okinawan Sensei couldn't even thread a needle because of his hand training.

[YouKnowWho]

You can break the bones in the back of the hand if you strike with it.

Not if you just use it to strike on your opponent's nose. You will break your opponent's nose before breaking your own hand. You may not be able to "kill" your opponent with that strike, but that strike can make your opponent's eyes watery, that will give you a chance to do a lot of other things.

Here is one example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRTHBPQdRDE

[Phil Redmond]

Not if you just use it to strike on your opponent's nose. You will break your opponent's nose before breaking your own hand. You may not be able to "kill" your opponent with that strike, but that strike can make your opponent's eyes watery, that will give you a chance to do a lot of other things.

Here is one example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRTHBPQdRDE
Nice "demo".

[Hendrik]

NEVER use a fuhk sao for striking. Fuhk means control. Not strike. You can break the bones in the back of the hand if you strike with it. Now I know that some martial arts do it but they have problems with their hand when they get older. I know because my Okinawan Sensei couldn't even thread a needle because of his hand training.


I totally agree with you Phil. mesh up the wrist is an extremely bad deal.

Back hand palm strike is not using the same mechanic as Fuhk Sao.

The white Crane metal hand is different type too.

So, Dont do it.

[Hendrik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKWVOc2HOig

start 5.22 that is not fook sau but Kong sau which could be used for strike but it is a very different mechanics even it might look close to fook sau. pay attention to my wrist and how I hold my hand and fingers.

[YouKnowWho]

It can be seen from 1.00 to 1.16 (from inside then tap). The combat application should have no "style boundary". If it works for you, use it, otherwise, don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M7M7rLxcYg

[FongSung]

Hi Phil,
I watched a vdo of yours showing how to use Fuk Sao in Chi Sao with fwd intention but you did not use the hand (sao) but the inside of the forearm to control with. In this situation the "shape" of the hand could be said to be not "that" important so therefore could be used to strike with any hand shape - as the hand is going fwd anyway and forearm is doing the controlling. I think you even have shown this on vdo actually.. but as a second step?

If it is possible to control and hit why not do it as one action, food for thought?

The outside of the forearm can also be used to control. As you said recently the cantonese names are verbs / actions and not describing a specific hand shape / posn.

[k gledhill]

"If it is possible to control and hit why not do it as one action, food for thought?"
you may be onto something there ;):D

[Graham H]

Hi, I am new to the form, and I am looking for answer for these these questions. In the Siu Lim Tao form, can the Fook Sao be used as a strike for application, as I have tried this on the wall bag and I believe it looks like a crane strike?

It all depends which lineage you are involved in. Most people use fook sau for controlling arms. There are many many different ideas as to what Fook Sau actually defines. In my system Fook Sau is a punching concept, not an application. In the first part of SLT we are training the elbow to come in and forward which is not a natural punching way for human beings. The reason for the elbow having to come into the center and forward do not become apparent until Chum Kiu and the various drills that follow. SLT is not a fighting form it is an exercise. The hand is turned inwards to encourage the elbow to come into the center whilst we are slowly pushing the elbow around the body and forward. In essence fook sau trains a certain punch...........in my lineage of course.


Also after Fak Sao (movement 101 to 102 of the form), we get into the double Lan Sao, I know that Fak Sao is a strike, but is there another application when get back to the Lan Sao? So after Fak Sao we strike outward, when we return back to Lan Sao, is this an application for ridge hand inward as a strike to the back of the head or something? Please advise.

As I have said SLT is an exercise. Its abstract and is not for fighting people with. There is no application to bringing Fak Sau back to Lan Sau other than to train the next movement.....jum sau. The correct rotation of the elbow (back to the fixed elbow position) ready for the punch......i.e. elbows remain down for punching. You may ask why these actions are done together......its so we can attain balance in both arms. One helps the other. Doing these actions with one arm only after not too much time spent training can cause other problems.

An important error that this movement addresses is that when we rotate the elbow back down that we do not chop down with the forearms. The elbows just rotate and the punching position is then perfect.

It's up to you which idea you wish to follow and as you will see there are always conflicting ideas.....

GH

[Graham H]

"If it is possible to control and hit why not do it as one action, food for thought?"
you may be onto something there ;):D

Heaven forbid!!! :D:D:D:D ;)

GH

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . . . . .

As I have said SLT is an exercise. Its abstract and is not for fighting people with. . . . .

GH
There are many fighting applications in the SLT form. I teach them every class. One of the things I've learned over years is to not say what WC has and doesn't have. None of us were around during the development of WC so all we have to go on is what our Sifus say. They repeat to us what their Sifus said.

[couch]

1. The Fok Sau can be extrapolated as an Ox Bow Hand and you can strike with your wrist. However, I personally pull that out of the form elsewhere. As some have pointed out, it better be on some 'soft tissue' areas. Also, just the same as a Phoenix Eye fist, it is recommended that you condition that part of your body before you use it.

2. The 'returning Lan' has been shown to me in another lineage as a Kow Sau - like a catching hand. If my hand is out and a punch is coming, I can come back and catch it with that hand. Never thought of an inside ridge hand - but coming from a Kenpo-ish background - I like that idea!

Best
CTK

[LoneTiger108]

Hi, I am new to the form, and I am looking for answer for these these questions. In the Siu Lim Tao form, can the Fook Sao be used as a strike for application, as I have tried this on the wall bag and I believe it looks like a crane strike? Also after Fak Sao (movement 101 to 102 of the form), we get into the double Lan Sao, I know that Fak Sao is a strike, but is there another application when get back to the Lan Sao? So after Fak Sao we strike outward, when we return back to Lan Sao, is this an application for ridge hand inward as a strike to the back of the head or something? Please advise.

It is quite hard for me to see what part of the SLT you're talking about but from the spelling/sounds and other posts I will offer my view.


The WC 扶手(Fu Shou) is the same as the Mantis 刁手(Diao Shou). Both can be used for face striking.

The WC 扶手(Fu Shou)?? I thought kowloonboy was talking about Fook Sau (Cantonese please!) which isn't even the same character you have here.


NEVER use a fuhk sao for striking. Fuhk means control. Not strike.

As a learned Cantonese talker you surely must have heard that Fook/Fuhk means 'hidden' (?) AND control AND subdue, so it can be looked upon as a 'concept'. Please tell me that you have learnt about Fook Da, Tan Da, Bong Da??!! THAT is a 'hidden hit' ;)

And then you go on to say...


There are many fighting applications in the SLT form. I teach them every class. One of the things I've learned over years is to not say what WC has and doesn't have.

Really??

And as far as using something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRTHBPQdRDE I understand that this is part of the fook controling concept but the hand technique itself is kao sau or 'hooking or latching hand', like in the SBF section of SLT.

So, looking at all the posts here, does anyone really know their SLT or Wooden Man for that matter as the fook sau kuen is present in the second set???!! :o


"If it is possible to control and hit why not do it as one action, food for thought?"

You see!! That's why I like and respect some things that WSL people say!! Although I do think EVERYONE here missed what you were saying Kev. ;)

Fook sau kuen. Bong sau kuen. Tan sau kuen.

Wake up guys :D

[Graham H]

There are many fighting applications in the SLT form. I teach them every class. One of the things I've learned over years is to not say what WC has and doesn't have. None of us were around during the development of WC so all we have to go on is what our Sifus say. They repeat to us what their Sifus said.

Correct. So can you give me some examples of your SLT fighting applications Phil? Let's say the 3 crossing actions before the punches at the end of the form. There are many in other lineages but only one concept in my system. My concept is small in idea.

G

[k gledhill]

You would be surprised whats hidden before us when doing SLT ;)

stare past the abstract image of forms, arms angles, redundant drills and you might see a clear picture of your goals for fighting.

look deep past the surface ....:D

a little bit of all the abstract parts make up a clear and sophisticated idea for fighting...some never see this simply because their teacher never gained a deep enough knowledge of the system to look past the pointing finger and see the heavenly glory . A large part of the image isnt used in the final goals ...

in the image is an airplane in 3D...if I tell you its there you will try to look for it. If I dont explain you see abstract image, with a meaning to every individual who has no idea of the image lying inside it.

[k gledhill]

It is quite hard for me to see what part of the SLT you're talking about but from the spelling/sounds and other posts I will offer my view.



The WC 扶手(Fu Shou)?? I thought kowloonboy was talking about Fook Sau (Cantonese please!) which isn't even the same character you have here.



As a learned Cantonese talker you surely must have heard that Fook/Fuhk means 'hidden' (?) AND control AND subdue, so it can be looked upon as a 'concept'. Please tell me that you have learnt about Fook Da, Tan Da, Bong Da??!! THAT is a 'hidden hit' ;)

And then you go on to say...



Really??

And as far as using something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRTHBPQdRDE I understand that this is part of the fook controling concept but the hand technique itself is kao sau or 'hooking or latching hand', like in the SBF section of SLT.

So, looking at all the posts here, does anyone really know their SLT or Wooden Man for that matter as the fook sau kuen is present in the second set???!! :o



You see!! That's why I like and respect some things that WSL people say!! Although I do think EVERYONE here missed what you were saying Kev. ;)

Fook sau kuen. Bong sau kuen. Tan sau kuen.

Wake up guys :D

yup, they missed that one...

[duende]

Fook Sau can look similar to Tahn sau (not Tan Sau). But the applications are different.

Tahn Sau can be used as a soft tissue strike, (nose etc..) but one needs to be careful as the back of the hand is very fragile as other's here have already mentioned.

[Phil Redmond]

Fook Sau can look similar to Tahn sau (not Tan Sau). But the applications are different.

Tahn Sau can be used as a soft tissue strike, (nose etc..) but one needs to be careful as the back of the hand is very fragile as other's here have already mentioned.
I think you mean Daahn Sao, bounce off hand. That uses the lower forearm, not the wrist.

[Phil Redmond]

Correct. So can you give me some examples of your SLT fighting applications Phil? Let's say the 3 crossing actions before the punches at the end of the form. There are many in other lineages but only one concept in my system. My concept is small in idea.

G
Someone grabs my left arm. I step back with the left leg snatching my arm towards me while simultaneously executing a strike to his hand with my other hand. This is called a Chit Sao. Almost everything in my forms have fighting apps.

[duende]

I think you mean Daahn Sao, bounce off hand. That uses the lower forearm, not the wrist.

Nope... Tahn Sau.

The wrist has to be held is a specific way though for structural support.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . The WC 扶手(Fu Shou)?? I thought kowloonboy was talking about Fook Sau (Cantonese please!) which isn't even the same character you have here. . . .
All Chinese read the same characters regardless of their native dialect. Fu Shou and Fook Sao are the same thing.



As a learned Cantonese talker you surely must have heard that Fook/Fuhk means 'hidden' (?) AND control AND subdue, so it can be looked upon as a 'concept'. Please tell me that you have learnt about Fook Da, Tan Da, Bong Da??!! THAT is a 'hidden hit' ;)
I'm not "learned" in Cantonese. I speak enough to get by and I'm getting better since I've moved back East where there are more Cantonese speakers.
Yale University Romanization of the Cantonese dialect teaches that there are 7 tones in Cantonese.
Haih can mean the verb 'to be', shoe, a point in space, crab, vagina, etc. The character for Fuhk/Fook that ALL WC people use means control/subdue. Not hidden. Here's the character 伏手. Please show it to anyone who can read Chinese. If they tell you it means hidden then thank you for teaching me something new.

Yes, most of the movements in our SLT form and the other forms have fighting apps. I personally wouldn't train in a system that didn't. My Chen Tai Chi Sifu Yu Guo Shun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WPMWutnSdc says the same thing. He teaches the fighting apps in the forms. Obviously we do different WC and that's all good my friend.

[Hendrik]

The character for Fuhk/Fook that ALL WC people use means control/subdue.

Not hidden. Here's the character 伏手.

Please show it to anyone who can read Chinese. If they tell you it means hidden then thank you for teaching me something new.




Phil,

You are absolutely correct and nothing hidden. lets see it as it is instead of side track to other stuffs. general Chinese some times has a problem of side track and lost the focus.

[Phil Redmond]

Nope... Tahn Sau.

The wrist has to be held is a specific way though for structural support.
Do you mean like 3:16 here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhL54FY1XO4

If so that is pronounced Daahn.

[duende]

Do you mean like 3:16 here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhL54FY1XO4

If so that is pronounced Daahn.

Kind of similar, but not the same. We use a different wrist structure than what you have shown in your vid. Also in our version, the angle of motion is quite different in both our SLT form and application.

you say tomato, I say tomato... ;)

[YouKnowWho]

The WC 扶手(Fu Shou)?? I thought kowloonboy was talking about Fook Sau (Cantonese please!) which isn't even the same character you have here.
I'm not Cantonese. I don't like Judo system to force US Judo students to learn Japanese. After all Japanese is an international language, but Cantonese is only one of the Chinese local dialects.

[Phil Redmond]

I think these are the characters. Hopefully a native speaker can concur, or not. :)

彈手

[Graham H]

Someone grabs my left arm. I step back with the left leg snatching my arm towards me while simultaneously executing a strike to his hand with my other hand. This is called a Chit Sao. Almost everything in my forms have fighting apps.

Ok, that's what I used to think when I was involved in the Ip Chun lineage. I've since been shown the error of my ways. No problem.

I also used to have a fighting application for every single action in the forms. When I met Philipp it took me a while for the penny to drop but I will never go back to those ideas as long as I am practicing Ving Tsun.

G

[YouKnowWho]

I think these are the characters. Hopefully a native speaker can concur, or not. :)

彈手

This discussion just remind me an old Taiji argument, "飽虎歸山(Bao Hu Gui Shan) - Well fed tiger return back to mountain" vs. "抱虎歸山(Bao Hu Gui Shan) - Carry tiger back to mountain". Since "飽(Bao) - Well fed" and "抱(Bao) - Carry" share the same pronunciation, people had to argue which one was correct for over 100 years. In the ancient time, most of the TCMA masters may not even be able to write. Most of the teaching was from words out of mouth.

I do believe that:

- The name of technique is not important.
- There is no standard for every technique.

[Phil Redmond]

This discussion just remind me an old Taiji argument, "飽虎歸山(Bao Hu Gui Shan) - Well fed tiger return back to mountain" vs. "抱虎歸山(Bao Hu Gui Shan) - Carry tiger back to mountain". Since "飽(Bao) - Well fed" and "抱(Bao) - Carry" share the same pronunciation, people had to argue which one was correct for over 100 years. In the ancient time, most of the TCMA masters may not even be able to write. Most of the teaching was from words out of mouth.

I do believe that:

- The name of technique is not important.
- There is no standard for every technique.
I'm glad you said that. And yes, many Sifus weren't literate back then. Yip Man was one of the exceptions.

[Phil Redmond]

Ok, that's what I used to think when I was involved in the Ip Chun lineage. I've since been shown the error of my ways. No problem.

I also used to have a fighting application for every single action in the forms. When I met Philipp it took me a while for the penny to drop but I will never go back to those ideas as long as I am practicing Ving Tsun.

G
Well I'm glad you're happy with what you're doing. I'm very happy with what I do. I'll also adopt things that work for me from other lineages. If it works I could care less what lineage it comes from.

[wolf3001]

I have used it as a strike as stated by others it's like a Mantis technique. It should probably be used as a quick whipping motion it's devastating against the side of the head and nose. Can lay someone out if used against the neck if you know where to strike. You strike with the wrist not the hand or really the back of the hand you can easily break a bone. It's actually probably safer than striking with your fist as with this you are striking with the area where your forearm attaches to the hand. The hand is bent so your not hitting with the hand just the end of the forearm. Just an example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zaKE_ZQijc

[YouKnowWho]

The reason that you strike this way is for speed. When you block and catch your opponent's striking hand, and while his body is still moving forward, you want to borrow his momentum and force and create a "head on collusion". You may not have time to change your hooking hand into a fist. So you sacrisfice your power for speed. After all, to hit on the face, 30 lb or 50 lb force may not make that much difference.

[Graham H]

Well I'm glad you're happy with what you're doing. I'm very happy with what I do. I'll also adopt things that work for me from lineages. If it works I could care less what lineage it comes from.

Its a shame everybody isn't like you on this forum Phil!!! ;) There would be less bickering.

GH

[Phil Redmond]

Its a shame everybody isn't like you on this forum Phil!!! ;) There would be less bickering.

GH
Thanks, The WC bickering is getting old and it doesn't help ones gung fu get better. ;)

[GlennR]

Its a shame everybody isn't like you on this forum Phil!!! ;) There would be less bickering.

GH

??????????????????
Youve been bagging anything non-pb fo months!

[LoneTiger108]

The character for Fuhk/Fook that ALL WC people use means control/subdue. Not hidden. Here's the character 伏手. Please show it to anyone who can read Chinese. If they tell you it means hidden then thank you for teaching me something new.

Well, at least you have the right character here Phil, because that was not the character used by others here ;)

As for the 'hidden' reference, I know that many various dictionaries have a massive array of variations, and in fact whack that character into Google translate and you will get 'conceal' :D

http://translate.google.co.uk/?hl=en&tab=wT#auto|en|%E4%BC%8F%0D%0A

Always being open to learning should be mandatory for all Wing Chun teachers imho as I learn new things about myself and my style every single day! One of the many reasons I still love Wing Chun :)

[Graham H]

??????????????????
Youve been bagging anything non-pb fo months!



Bagging it??? :D.....in fact I knew it would be you who came back with a dig like that!!!

Rather than have a bickering match with you again...(you're not worth it)......explain to me why people leave certain lineages and go and join others.....if you can. I only bag things if I have experienced them before and been shown that they do not work which is quite common in VT.

Thank you please.

G

[Phil Redmond]

Well, at least you have the right character here Phil, because that was not the character used by others here ;)

As for the 'hidden' reference, I know that many various dictionaries have a massive array of variations, and in fact whack that character into Google translate and you will get 'conceal' :D

http://translate.google.co.uk/?hl=en&tab=wT#auto|en|%E4%BC%8F%0D%0A

Always being open to learning should be mandatory for all Wing Chun teachers imho as I learn new things about myself and my style every single day! One of the many reasons I still love Wing Chun :)
Google translate gave me; Hand V . . . lol.
I'm not trusting google again for translations. :)

[Vajramusti]

Please don't be confused by net chatting --it's not serious. Also not to be confused by all the different "sub styles" and pseudo styles..one day a "true and original" green flag wing chun may emerge
from the shores of Tripoli! Or from the halls of Montezuma.Or the sands of Iwojima.

Get a good teacher, unless you have one,, and then practice and discover things for yourself.

Joy Chaudhuri

[duende]

Please don't be confused by net chatting --it's not serious. Also not to be confused by all the different "sub styles" and pseudo styles..one day a "true and original" green flag wing chun may emerge
from the shores of Tripoli! Or from the halls of Montezuma.Or the sands of Iwojima.

Get a good teacher, unless you have one,, and then practice and discover things for yourself.

Joy Chaudhuri

What's to be confused?

A lot of us gave genuinely kind insights and perspectives on the matter. What's pseudo or sub-stylistic in that?

[GlennR]

Bagging it??? :D.....in fact I knew it would be you who came back with a dig like that!!!

Rather than have a bickering match with you again...(you're not worth it)......explain to me why people leave certain lineages and go and join others.....if you can. I only bag things if I have experienced them before and been shown that they do not work which is quite common in VT.

Thank you please.

G

Geez Graham..... youve hurt my feelings ;)
And ill try to answer your well thought out question.
Id suggest people leave lineages and go to others...... because they want to.
It doesnt have to be a measurement of the school, maybe the person just wanted to go somewhere else.
Personalities, class size, class mix, location etc etc would all contribute to people moving around.... just like a job
So are you telling me that no one has ever left PB for another school??
I'll tip my hat to him if thats true.

[Graham H]

Geez Graham..... youve hurt my feelings ;)
And ill try to answer your well thought out question.
Id suggest people leave lineages and go to others...... because they want to.
It doesnt have to be a measurement of the school, maybe the person just wanted to go somewhere else.
Personalities, class size, class mix, location etc etc would all contribute to people moving around.... just like a job
So are you telling me that no one has ever left PB for another school??
I'll tip my hat to him if thats true.

Oh yeah...thats it......LOL. If you believe that then lets leave it at that and if you ever decide to go try for yourself then we can discuss. Until then shall we stop arguing??? People may think we are in love!! :D:D:D

GH

[Vajramusti]

What's to be confused?

A lot of us gave genuinely kind insights and perspectives on the matter. What's pseudo or sub-stylistic in that?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
No problem. Good if he is not confused. Confusion is not all bad... can be the beginning of clarity.

[GlennR]

Oh yeah...thats it......LOL. If you believe that then lets leave it at that and if you ever decide to go try for yourself then we can discuss. Until then shall we stop arguing??? People may think we are in love!! :D:D:D

GH


Id say at a guess ive tried a bit more than you dearest.... but youre right, lets agree to disagree ;)

[mvbrown21]

I'll repost this here because I think it can apply to this thread also


[/QUOTE] Originally Posted by kowloonboy Here is the biggest hurdle which I have been trying to jump or climb over for the last few months and losing motivation. After more research in Wing Chun on other sites, and from this forum. I now know that there are so many styles of Wing Chun, some Wing Chun systems have more form in their system then my current studying system.I am in the Yip Man lineage. Then there are also the political aspect in Wing Chun, different lineage, and so on. Just searching on the SLT form online, I see so many versions. Can other members please help me to overcome this big hurdle which I still fail to climb over.[/QUOTE]

"I know I've made some controversial statements of late but I hope my word can help.

The lineage/style of WC doesn't matter so much as the quality of the teacher. Some put a lot of stock into their Sifu's right away and give him an almost God-like persona. Personally I wouldn't recommend putting any stock into your Sifu until he has proven himself to you as much as you have proven yourself to him.

There are many different styles of good teaching out there. One thing I learned back when I was with the Fire Department was that, as a 'proby', you were going to get one of two styles of Captains. The one who is completely committed to your training and will bend over backwards to show you how to do just about everything. And the one who acts like he wants as little to do with you as possible. The latter won't lead you astray but he leaves the learning up to how bad you really want it, forcing you to figure out a lot of things on your own. Now, it's obvious, which Captain 99% of the 'probies' would go for if they had a choice. The interesting thing, however, was that the committed, goal-getter Captains pushed out robots, by-the-book clones of themselves, while the Captains that appeared to not care pushed out capable, think for themselves, problem solving kind of guys, whom were overall more efficient on the fireground. It seems backwards, doesn't it?

Myself, being one of the lucky ones,(who didn't think he was too lucky at the time!!), realized that by my Captain giving me nothing more than the basic tools of the job, it forced me to adapt my own body and mind uniquely to myself. Sure there were "principles" of firefighter safety that he would be quick to correct me on but ultimately at the end of the day, he couldn't show me how to chop through a roof or drag a 250lb hoseline any better than my body itself could make work. His body and his movement wasn't mine no matter how much our movements might have mirrored each other. So he didn't even try and by him doing that, I learned how to become more efficient with my physical tasks and to think outside the box.

The point is, that WC itself, regardless of lineage, are that basic set of tools. You might use the screwdriver like the label says or you might use it to stab open a can of beans. You might try to muscle that bolt off with the wrench or you might use a cheater bar to help you out. All that matters in your training is that someone shows you what each tool does and how it's 'normally' used. The rest is up to you with what you want to do with it!!


Good luck...


"The second-hand artist blindly following his sensei or sifu accepts his pattern. As a result, his action and, more importantly, his thinking become mechanical. His responses become automatic, according to set patterns, making him narrow and limited." -Bruce Lee

[Graham H]

Id say at a guess ive tried a bit more than you dearest.... but youre right, lets agree to disagree ;)

Dearest? Aw bless! mwah :o

G

[kowloonboy]

mvbrown21,

Thanks :)

[Liddel]

For a Martial art like WC which is supposed to favour simplicity and under complicated actions and/or less is more - type mindset, we certainly do have people that like to muddy the waters and complicate things.

If i can use a fist to punch why use Fook Sau ? whats the added advantage ?

IMO there is none, its just trying to be fancy. You also negate the use of Inch power when using the wrist as a touch point, a better alternative is to use the edge of your plam (pinky edge) or a backfist, At least you see examples in the forms and dummy all the way through chi Sau to sparring.

Anyone who's sparred with some force understands the fact that punches seldom land clean and can hurt your wrist fist, the chances of glancing somone with the fook changing your touch point from the wrist (the strongest part) to an area towards the knuckles (the part with the least support) is too risky.

It may work in an isolated demo, it may even work once in sparring (keeping an open mind) but you will end up hurting yourself and that could result in bad things for you :o

[Phil Redmond]

For a Martial art like WC which is supposed to favour simplicity and under complicated actions and/or less is more - type mindset, we certainly do have people that like to muddy the waters and complicate things.

If i can use a fist to punch why use Fook Sau ? whats the added advantage ? . . . . .



Very good post except you spelled "favor" wrong. :D

[Vajramusti]

Very good post except you spelled "favor" wrong. :D
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Dat is the Ingles spelling! Or Aussie etc..

I had to spell it that way once and was forced to stand up when God Save the king was sung..
and the king was the one portrayed not so accurately in The King's Speech!!

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

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Dat is the Ingles spelling! Or Aussie etc..........

joy chaudhuri

Yeah, I know. I practically lived in Ontario for over 3 years.
I got used to colour, centre, flavour, wxy "zed" . . .:)
Oh, I forgot to mention mayonnaise on chips (fries for us Yanks). When I'd ask for Ketchup on my fries they knew I was American.

[Runlikehell]

Yeah, I know. I practically lived in Ontario for over 3 years.
I got used to colour, centre, flavour, wxy "zed" . . .:)
Oh, I forgot to mention mayonnaise on chips (fries for us Yanks). When I'd ask for Ketchup on my fries they knew I was American.

All those are familiar to me, as an Australian. Except mayonnaise on chips, must be a Canadian thing alone (though, if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me). Interesting to learn of these differences.

[CFT]

All those are familiar to me, as an Australian. Except mayonnaise on chips, must be a Canadian thing alone (though, if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me). Interesting to learn of these differences.The Dutch put mayonnaise on their chips/fries/frites. I think the Belgians do too.

[Runlikehell]

The Dutch put mayonnaise on their chips/fries/frites. I think the Belgians do too.

I learn something new everyday. Maybe I'll try this myself.

[Vajramusti]

The Dutch put mayonnaise on their chips/fries/frites. I think the Belgians do too.
-----------------------------------------------Ruins both the fry and the mayonnaise... no?

joy

[GlennR]

-----------------------------------------------Ruins both the fry and the mayonnaise... no?

joy


Dont tell my Belgian GF that Joy..... she'll have your hide ;)

Its all about frites and mayonnaise

[CFT]

-----------------------------------------------Ruins both the fry and the mayonnaise... no?That's what I thought but it is surprisingly good. You couldn't eat it every day though. Well, you probably could but I wouldn't like to see your cholesterol levels!

Similarly gravy on chips/fries. You'd think 'soggy' chips/fries would be yuck, but again surprisingly good.

[anerlich]

The Dutch put mayonnaise on their chips/fries/frites. I think the Belgians do too.

It's pretty common to get a sachet of tartare sauce (basically, mayo) with fish and chips in Oz these days. You might be only supposed to put it on the fish, but IMO it goes great on the chips (OK,fries!) as well.

You can even get it with a fish burger from Maccas IIRC (would you like fries with that? Supersize me!)

[wolf3001]

I need to see if I can locate the video again but I seen the Fook used as a strike by a Wing Chun guy. I will look later and see if I find it again. I believe it was called something else but the idea is the same the hand is more or less held the same way. The strike was delivered under the chin after a Gum Sau I think.

[kowloonboy]

I need to see if I can locate the video again but I seen the Fook used as a strike by a Wing Chun guy. I will look later and see if I find it again. I believe it was called something else but the idea is the same the hand is more or less held the same way. The strike was delivered under the chin after a Gum Sau I think.

Thanks much appreciated.

[Phil Redmond]

That's what I thought but it is surprisingly good. You couldn't eat it every day though. Well, you probably could but I wouldn't like to see your cholesterol levels!

Similarly gravy on chips/fries. You'd think 'soggy' chips/fries would be yuck, but again surprisingly good.

Gravy on fries/chips uummm good. I had some of the best Poutine when I was in Quebec.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poutine
(I also got Rene Ritchie's autograph on my Complete Wing book).:)

[kowloonboy]

Chips with curry sauce are really good too. We get them from UK Fish and Chips shops.

[wolf3001]

Thanks much appreciated.

I am not finding it I may have been mistaken however there is a strike used in this manner in several Chinese arts Tang Lang being one major one. I don't see why it couldn't be used as such in Wing Chun. In Siu Lim Tau you use a Double Gum Sau followed by Tarn Sau. I have used this Tarn Sau as a strike after I blocked a low blow say a front kick as I sidestepped the kick after using a Gum Sau. I brought my Tarn up to the Carotid Artery. With it's quick whipping motion I think it would daze if not knock someone out. Of course I don't stick to just Wing Chun techniques I have a library of martial arts books and like to throw in all sorts of stuff.