Goat Restraining or Pigeon Toed Stance

[wolf3001]

Because I am from the William Cheung branch we do not use this at all. Over the years I have heard many arguments against this being used in any way or at least as a fighting stance. I have read a bit about it but not enough to really understand it. So I am going to ask what is it's uses and how is it used in your system if you use it at all? Cheung practiced Wing Chun under Ip Man I find it hard to understand why it's not used in our system if he had learned it. I have seen a few who come from other branches doing Siu Lim Tau and it seemed to me they left it out as well but I think they used it in other areas.

As a fighting stance I don't see it's usefulness although I have seen some similar techniques in other arts but they were used only as a step in transitioning between stances. One such example was talking about protecting the Femoral Artery during a knife attack. This came from a Ninjutsu technique I read about as a kid. I believe I have even seen Hung Gar people turning into such a stance but again it was a transitioning movement between stances.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

The stance is for training, not for fighting. I doubt you will find anyone, compentent anyhow, trying to utilize this stance in actual combat. However, this stance is found in many other arts to include several of the Silat or Kuntao variety.

[trubblman]

It's clearly not a fighting stance despite what some practitioners of a certain lineage assert. IMO, it's used to strengthen legs, and for internal strength development.
Here is what CST says
"We want to measure a good position with the natural stance or Yee Chi Kim Yeung Ma. After finishing the natural stance, both of my feet are angle inward to form a triangle shape if you image there are two lines extends from my both feet where the tip of my toes and the tip of my heel to the front of my body. When both imaginary lines of my feet reached an intersection, it creates a point. This point is where we put our entire body force. When we punch, we must use that point as our target."
He goes on to say you are supposed to pull up the perineum, straighten the spine and thus the 'hei' will rise. I am assuming corresponds to chi.

[k gledhill]

Hello,

The stance is for training, not for fighting. I doubt you will find anyone, compentent anyhow, trying to utilize this stance in actual combat. However, this stance is found in many other arts to include several of the Silat or Kuntao variety.

We use it to train the foot angles that in turn stabilize the hip joint. We deliver lateral GING force simultaneously as we strike /deflect , pak sao, tan elbow, jum elbow, Bong sao = <sharp energy> left or right relative to the joan sien [centerline] so we have to have a good hip base with knees inwards and hips stabilized.
Also in chi-sao striking drilling , each partner is aligning intensive pressure of strikes in rotation, tan strike elbow force >versus< jum strike elbow force, each arm creating an invisible plane of equilibrium, as this happens the hips are fighting to stay forwards constantly in a battle of stability with the partner, not sparring yet :D just preparing the structure delivering the arms.
Each partner is deliberately placing the other in an exchange of force. The hips need to stay forwards to allow the legs to drive them forwards , ie not try to lean forwards to compensate....
We move from this equilateral stance into testing structures in motion, seung ma toi ma , seung ma toi ma with angling, etc...then drills with no pre-contact to simulate the angles adopted in chi-sao but using the developed strong stances in motion with striking and parrying in tactical lines of engagement randomly, furthering into free sparring.
Many ime don't do this form of chi-sao and usually do the steering wheel wristing hand chase bs thing that doesn't translate to the aforementioned drilling ideas. WHY ?
because they don't encompass striking and alignment with structured force to back them up. they go into 'statue blocking' and turning stances to 're-direct' force with whole body instead of more efficient strikes with dual deflecting ability.
Its not a fighting stance, just a neutral training stance to move from, as posted above the triangulation helps students to focus their lines.
even in chum kil the leading foot is turned slightly inwards for this thinking, stability. The SLT ygkym conditions this .

[Phil Redmond]

It's clearly not a fighting stance despite what some practitioners of a certain lineage assert. . .
As a TWC Sifu I will agree that it's not a fighting stance. :)

[k gledhill]

Not a fighting stance...

[YouKnowWho]

If this is the stance that we are talking about here, I believe it could be used as a fighting stance on a small boat in the old China. Any snow ski beginner will know how to use this stance on ski slope.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://happehtheory.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/WingChunStance3View.png&imgrefurl=http://happehtheory.org/2010/07/27/knowledge-of-science-can-be-useful-to-a-kung-fu-man-part-03-10-17-08/&usg=__OnyMPPLlBXrNWe5dUJ8AHqrjuOI=&h=480&w=640&sz=177&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=gxoGrpGwKbk8vM:&tbnh=123&tbnw=170&ei=scnZTaaVEYu8sQPQxfiEDA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwing%2Bchun%2Bstance%26hl%3Den%26sa%3 DX%26rlz%3D1T4PPST_enUS398US398%26biw%3D1659%26bih %3D734%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=671&sqi=2&page=1&ndsp=42&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0&tx=67&ty=46

[trubblman]

Here is what Chu Shong Tin thinks of SLT; I think he says it best and most authoritatively:

http://www.tstvingtsun.bc.ca/HiddenPowerOfSNT_remix.html

[trubblman]

His view, isnt everyones....the 'arc' of the arms he uses to make beachball arm rolling chi-sao :o even my old sifu said you cant touch him becasue he rolls like a balloon :D and he ...doesnt fight ;)

I think you went off on a tangent. The thread is about YGKYM stance - what is it's purpose, not chi sao. People answered the first part of his question, that is not for fighting. The second is if not for fighting then why do it? That's why I quoted the article.

[wolf3001]

I have heard things about the stance dealing with Chi cultivation but have little to no knowledge in Chi Gung like exercises. When we do Siu Lim Tau our toes point forward legs are about shoulder width apart knees slightly bent. My Sifu would at times make us go through the form extremely slow until your legs would burn.

This is exactly what im talking about. This seems to much but like this depiction I have seen people doing this I mean really leaning. To me it looks like someone could push you right over. I have also seen people shifting into a side stance leaning heavily on one side.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...:0&tx=67&ty=46

A Side Stance like this to me seems like limiting your ability to move from side to side quickly. Am I wrong here? I keep a 50/50 weight distribution this seems like your leaning on one leg. To me pinning you down making it slow to change directions. Even the Front Stance I have seen usually has leaning on the back leg.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_syir5ZkTizI/SqKcQNU9NLI/AAAAAAAAAHM/nDqtVRLVA20/s400/Stance+%26+Forwork+2.jpg

Other than the hand position this is what I am most used to if his lead foot was turned in a bit more about 45 degrees.
http://www.theonetwopunch.com/images/fittip1199.jpg

[Phil Redmond]

Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma
Character 2 clamping (the) goat, stance

Yee Jee - Character two (number 2)
Kim - clamping/squeezing
Yeung - Goat
Mah - Horse (stance)
We train the stance using the character two as in the second column second row. Many use the pigeon toed stance like the character 8 as in the third column sixth row.

[k gledhill]

I think you went off on a tangent. The thread is about YGKYM stance - what is it's purpose, not chi sao. People answered the first part of his question, that is not for fighting. The second is if not for fighting then why do it? That's why I quoted the article.

that why I deleted it....;)

[imperialtaichi]

In my opinion, "Yeung" as in "Yang" and not "goat". So the stance trains the "squeezing" of yang power, which resides within the entire pelvic apparatus.

The "Yee Jee" is the number two character, the "Uneven lines" as the power and the whole framework is asymmetric everywhere.

It is a training stance, not fighting stance.

For fighting I use the stance from Baat Jaam Dou.

[Phil Redmond]

In my opinion, "Yeung" as in "Yang" and not "goat". So the stance trains the "squeezing" of yang power, which resides within the entire pelvic apparatus.

The "Yee Jee" is the number two character, the "Uneven lines" as the power and the whole framework is asymmetric everywhere.

It is a training stance, not fighting stance.

For fighting I use the stance from Baat Jaam Dou.
Your opinion is fine with me but the character used IS goat and not the character for Yang. Romanizations can be complicated for some Westerners. It's easy enough to research the Chinese character on the web.

[Phil Redmond]

In my opinion, "Yeung" as in "Yang" and not "goat". So the stance trains the "squeezing" of yang power, which resides within the entire pelvic apparatus.

The "Yee Jee" is the number two character, the "Uneven lines" as the power and the whole framework is asymmetric everywhere.

It is a training stance, not fighting stance.

For fighting I use the stance from Baat Jaam Dou.
羊 Yeung - Goat (used in the WC stance) In Yip Man WC. Not sure about other lineages.
陽 Yang - as in the Taoist belief

[Phil Redmond]

I just found out that some lineages use Yang and not Yeung (goat) so I stand a corrected. :o

[Runlikehell]

Phil, it's entirely possible that it was originally meant to be 陽, but without much written translation early on it could have been recorded as 羊. Similar to the differing opinions regarding 詠 and 永.

Of course, this is just a thought.

EDIT: Disregard this post, as we must have been writing at the same time.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil, it's entirely possible that it was originally meant to be 陽, but without much written translation early on it could have been recorded as 羊. Similar to the differing opinions regarding 詠 and 永.

Of course, this is just a thought.

EDIT: Disregard this post, as we must have been writing at the same time.
imperialtaichi is Kulo lineage. They use Yang. Kulo is older then YMWC so Yang could be correct.

[Graham H]

YJKYM for learning and developing the correct structure. Not for fighting or developing stupid ideas like "chi". It's a training stance. It seems most agree which is a good sign for a change!! :D

G

[LoneTiger108]

Wow! :eek:

Still the same old disagreements over a 'core fundamental' method of Wing Chun. It's almost laughable, and at the same time totally embarrassing to see the lack of confidence in simple language here. I mean, I'm practically illiterate with the written Chinese word without my dictionaries but still know why (according to verbal transmission) Ip Man used Yeung (Goat) over Yeurng (Yang) AND I can also see the benefits of 'both'.

Where 'pigeons' come into it I really don't know! Maybe another dig at the British, like the infamous 'Fox'! :D ;)

[TenTigers]

Hung Kuen and other Nam Siu Lum styles use YJKYM (Yeung)
I find it odd that they use Yi, rather than Bot.
But, if you stand in YJKYM, if you draw a line connecting the toes and another connecting the heels, it forms the Yi Ji.
(I still say it looks more like a bot ji of you look at the feet...)

[LoneTiger108]

But, if you stand in YJKYM, if you draw a line connecting the toes and another connecting the heels, it forms the Yi Ji.

Man! The first person to explain it simply (like, as it IS!) isn't even a Wing Chun man :eek:

FWIW There were foot positions I have referred to as 'poon long' that are 'faan baat' (inverted 8) in TCMA terms ;)

[k gledhill]

I would lean more to Yang hip. It is a hip
position workout when exchanging energy.

[Phil Redmond]

Wow! :eek:

Still the same old disagreements over a 'core fundamental' method of Wing Chun. It's almost laughable, and at the same time totally embarrassing to see the lack of confidence in simple language here. I mean, I'm practically illiterate with the written Chinese word without my dictionaries but still know why (according to verbal transmission) Ip Man used Yeung (Goat) over Yeurng (Yang) AND I can also see the benefits of 'both'.

Where 'pigeons' come into it I really don't know! Maybe another dig at the British, like the infamous 'Fox'! :D ;)
So your slam was to whom?

[Phil Redmond]

Hung Kuen and other Nam Siu Lum styles use YJKYM (Yeung)
I find it odd that they use Yi, rather than Bot.
But, if you stand in YJKYM, if you draw a line connecting the toes and another connecting the heels, it forms the Yi Ji.
(I still say it looks more like a bot ji of you look at the feet...)
It does look like a baat ji. If the feet are straight is looks more like a yih jee.

[wolf3001]

I read some stuff awhile back as I said about it dealing with Chi cultivation. After reading some here I think that has some or all to do with it if not cultivation it has something to do with energy. I may be wrong but I believe some of what I read said something about locking in the energy..... It could very well be a strengthening exercise and nothing more.

I am sure years ago I seen people standing in the stance and practicing fighting techniques. They were leaning far back and doing a drill against a straight punch. To me it seems odd practicing the fighting techniques in such a way. I know that many in my school have an incorrect view on the stance it's curious to me why William Cheung's Siu Lim Tau lacks this and wondering if any other more major branches also lack this.

[anerlich]

Basically, it's a goat-clamping stance - and the goat in question is the opponent's lead leg. If your opponent steps between your legs and attempts a throw, trip or push, just clamp down on their leg (thigh area.) Continue your assault as able.


Interesting take - there are wrestling techs which require you to trap your opp's leg with both of your own.

I found that my training in TWC parallel stance (we do not turn the toes in) helped significantly with my standing guard passes and standing postural defence against sweeps in BJJ.

[wolf3001]

Where 'pigeons' come into it I really don't know! Maybe another dig at the British, like the infamous 'Fox'! :D ;)

The pigeon toe reference is just what people say when someone has their toes in like that. Has nothing to do with the stance but many refer to it as a Pigeon Toed Stance. I had no idea what it was called before reading a bit about it. Thats when I read Goat Holding, Gripping or Restraining stance.

Qigong Goat Gripping Stance
When the form of this stance is correct and you are relaxed, chi flowing in from the Cosmos will naturally accumulate at your dan tian as well as root you to the ground. This is the secret why practicing this stance (as well as other stances) develops internal force. In some schools, the knees are hooked in tightly, but in our school the knees are only slightly hooked in and are relaxed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sebCAJhVH_o

This doesn't really say much of why we use it in Wing Chun but describes much of what I have read here thus far.
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/print.php?article=919

[anerlich]

Where 'pigeons' come into it I really don't know! Maybe another dig at the British, like the infamous 'Fox'!

Pigeon Toe is a reference to a medical condition where the toes point inward to an exaggerated degree.

No dig at the British, they probably invented the term. (though of course all us Aussies, Irish and Americans hate the Brits)

No idea what the Fox reference refers to.

Does the word "paranoid" mean anything you?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=anerlich;1098567]Pigeon Toe is a reference to a medical condition where the toes point inward to an exaggerated degree.

No dig at the British, they probably invented the term. (though of course all us Aussies, Irish and Americans hate the Brits)
------------------------------------------------------------
pigeon toe- yes- an English term.

Some Indians too. Much of the world is now paying for the hegemony the Brits created in South Asia(divide and conquer, Middle east (they carved much of the boundaries and started the oil theft), the Opium trade(my hometown Calcutta) is where ships were loaded with opium bound for Canton> Nota racist comment but a cultural one.
As a boy and youth I had to sing God Save the King for that stuttering rascal while I was not allowed into the tennis clubs, swimming clubs etc. And Churchill aaargh! Enough.

joy

[anerlich]

Sorry, Joy, didn't mean to leave you out of my list ;)

[Vajramusti]

No problem Andrew.
joy

[Vajramusti]

YGKYM is a devlopmental stance for byulding some key attributes of structure. But each to his own

joy c

[k gledhill]

YGKYM is a devlopmental stance for byulding some key attributes of structure. But each to his own

joy c

Shame you waste in on waddling hand chasing....;)

[Vajramusti]

Shame you waste in on waddling hand chasing....;)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------No shame that you have not learned how to write clearly. Write one clear paragraph every day- you can make it yet.

[k gledhill]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------No shame that you have not learned how to write clearly. Write one clear paragraph every day- you can make it yet.

Shame you haven't managed to stop waddling and hand chasing either, one day at a time Joy there's still time, well maybe not. ;) may the flow be with you....may the punctuation be with me .

[Eric_H]

In HFY we translate Yee Ge Kim Yeung Ma as "character 2 stance" where it is the short line over the longer one. We do not have the pidgeon toes like I did in Moy Yat WC, rather it is a very slight inward turn which allows the hip to connect all the way down the leg.

As for it being a fighting stance, it can be. Stance usages are range and leverage dependent.

[wolf3001]

In HFY we translate Yee Ge Kim Yeung Ma as "character 2 stance" where it is the short line over the longer one. We do not have the pidgeon toes like I did in Moy Yat WC, rather it is a very slight inward turn which allows the hip to connect all the way down the leg.

As for it being a fighting stance, it can be. Stance usages are range and leverage dependent.

I take it HFY is Hung Fa Yi?

Awhile back I stumbled upon Hung Fa Yi but know nothing about it really. I got a book with Garett Gee in it. I was doing some things online dealing with William Cheung and how his system is so different from Ip Man's. It was brought up that some of it resembled Hung Fa Yi and that had been my thoughts. Someone asked if it was possible Cheung had contact with Hung Fa Yi. I have not to my knowledge seen full forms from Hung Fa Yi do you know where any may be posted?

Just found this if it's Hung Fa Yi but would be interested in seeing more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEfMlbAoghU&playnext=1&list=PL29E5713358314594

[Hendrik]

Here is the nature and raw form of goat stance

this is the idea of what SLT/SNT is about in the begining before many people evolve it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxv0qVxqdOE&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=SP1408CFB0BB5A5F4A


What do you think?

[Eric_H]

I take it HFY is Hung Fa Yi?

Awhile back I stumbled upon Hung Fa Yi but know nothing about it really. I got a book with Garett Gee in it. I was doing some things online dealing with William Cheung and how his system is so different from Ip Man's. It was brought up that some of it resembled Hung Fa Yi and that had been my thoughts. Someone asked if it was possible Cheung had contact with Hung Fa Yi. I have not to my knowledge seen full forms from Hung Fa Yi do you know where any may be posted?

Just found this if it's Hung Fa Yi but would be interested in seeing more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEfMlbAoghU&playnext=1&list=PL29E5713358314594

Hello wolf3001,

Yes HFY is Hung Fa Yi, sorry, acronyms come with being a programmer ;)

That video is not Hung Fa Yi, we do not have videos available. There was some talk of an online video project to be done in 2011, but I don't know the status of it at this time.

As for TWC and HFY, Garrett Gee and William Cheung have never met. W. Cheung was a student of Yip Man, and claims to know the Leung Bik version of wing chun that Yip Man learned after Chun Wa Shun's version. Whether you believe that or not is up to you, but TWC and HFY have some pretty radical differences.

In the end it's all WC, every lineage I know of descends from Taan Sau Ng anyways.

[YouKnowWho]

One WC guy told me this joke (don't be too serious about this). The WC Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma (二字箝羊馬) and Tan Sau (摊手) was invented by Yip Wing Chun to protect her ...

[anerlich]

I am a TWC guy who had the good fortune to meet duende on this forum, an HFY guy, in Sydney a while back.

We compared forms and partner drills ... suffice to say there is some commonality, but also a world of difference. I was convinced that if there is a common source it was well before Garrett Gee and William Cheung's time on the planet.

Lest someone read something into that that isn't there, from what I've seen I think HFY is great.

[GlennR]

Shame you waste in on waddling hand chasing....;)



Shame you act like a 13 year old

[LoneTiger108]

No dig at the British, they probably invented the term. (though of course all us Aussies, Irish and Americans hate the Brits)

No idea what the Fox reference refers to.

Does the word "paranoid" mean anything you?

Exlplains a lot :D

Fox reference was to posts a while back, but you must've missed the whole 'Animal' thing. And paranoid? Me?

Hmm... perhaps!


pigeon toe- yes- an English term.

Some Indians too. Much of the world is now paying for the hegemony the Brits created in South Asia(divide and conquer, Middle east (they carved much of the boundaries and started the oil theft), the Opium trade(my hometown Calcutta) is where ships were loaded with opium bound for Canton> Nota racist comment but a cultural one.
As a boy and youth I had to sing God Save the King for that stuttering rascal while I was not allowed into the tennis clubs, swimming clubs etc. And Churchill aaargh! Enough.

joy

Many here seem to 'say' they mean no offence, but in truth?

Nothing like people holding onto the past to feed their ignorance imho. Goes the same for the Wing Chun squabbles. I feel we all need to get past that, we are entering a new era, but it just may be impossible for some...

[wolf3001]

Hello wolf3001,

Yes HFY is Hung Fa Yi, sorry, acronyms come with being a programmer ;)

That video is not Hung Fa Yi, we do not have videos available. There was some talk of an online video project to be done in 2011, but I don't know the status of it at this time.

As for TWC and HFY, Garrett Gee and William Cheung have never met. W. Cheung was a student of Yip Man, and claims to know the Leung Bik version of wing chun that Yip Man learned after Chun Wa Shun's version. Whether you believe that or not is up to you, but TWC and HFY have some pretty radical differences.

In the end it's all WC, every lineage I know of descends from Taan Sau Ng anyways.

I didn't think it really was because I have found nothing else im not sure why the video came up when I typed in Hung Fa Yi. What I read almost a year ago was that Garrett Gee has claimed to have never met him or they just said he hadn't. Because I have had no contact with anyone in the system I have yet to see it's forms. I have only seen a part of the Siu Lim Tau and Chum Kiu because the photos are incomplete. but it looks somewhat similar from what I can tell I need to see video. I became interested in Hung Fa Yi mainly because it was what I discovered while looking for an older branch that came from beyond Leung Jan and followed a different line. I think thats where I began anyway it's been awhile. This is why I got the book with him in it.

I have a hard time trusting anyone within the Ip Man line it's my view that this line is where many of the political issues originated from. Ip Man never openly to my knowledge stated who was to become the head. My view is because he didn't care or there was nothing to head. I wasn't there and can't say but from what I read he wasn't even considered anything of a head of Wing Chun until he went to Hong Kong. To me it would be like my Sifu going off and teaching here or whatever and then we started calling him a Grandmaster. He is a Master and has taught many to instructor level. Ip Chun had to apologize to the grandson of Yuen Kay San I honestly didn't know much about Yuen Kay San until very recently because I didn't realize there was any connection to Ip Man. Im wondering who were the top dogs of Wing Chun during Ip Man's years before going to Hong Kong I read he was sort of a nobody.

Yuen Kay San from what I read taught Ip Man Chi Sau because he had never learned it but he did so reluctantly and asked Ip Man to not show others. Acording to what im reading Ip Man learned from various people but was under Yuen Kay San in their group. I had heard at one time after he met Leung Bik he went to Foshan and easily defeated other Wing Chun students he had knew and they were upset at what he was using like he had mixed it with something different. I just find it hard to believe that there was some major secret Wing Chun that Ip learned from Leung Bik that Yuen Kay San and others didn't know. Concidering Yuen Kay San's came from Wong Wah Bo. Anyway......

[GlennR]

Many here seem to 'say' they mean no offence, but in truth?

Nothing like people holding onto the past to feed their ignorance imho. Goes the same for the Wing Chun squabbles. I feel we all need to get past that, we are entering a new era, but it just may be impossible for some...[/QUOTE]



You are kidding arent you??

You latch onto your sigung, the old ways, links with animals etc and then have the hide to say this nonsense!

New era??

Tell us about your New Era??

Your hypocrisy astounds me

[LoneTiger108]

You are kidding arent you??

You latch onto your sigung, the old ways, links with animals etc and then have the hide to say this nonsense!

New era??

Tell us about your New Era??

Your hypocrisy astounds me

Dude, if you find discussing 'older' stuffs insulting I can't do anything about that!

I have rarely made any personal comments about what I think of other countries or cultures and I have always tried my best to not sling sh!t at people here :eek: I have a resounding repsect for anyone that has stayed in WCK for more than 10 years and I especially have a soft spot for people who stayed loyal to their WCK Sifu.

And FWIW I don't 'latch on' to my Sigung. I am free of him. He is dead. If anything I am one of the only westerners with permission to talk about Lee Shing so publically, and that's because of my own Sifus status in the family. I come here to share ideas, only to be flogged continuously by random posters who know little or nothing about the Lee Shing 'way'.

[GlennR]

Dude, if you find discussing 'older' stuffs insulting I can't do anything about that!

I have rarely made any personal comments about what I think of other countries or cultures and I have always tried my best to not sling sh!t at people here :eek: I have a resounding repsect for anyone that has stayed in WCK for more than 10 years and I especially have a soft spot for people who stayed loyal to their WCK Sifu.

And FWIW I don't 'latch on' to my Sigung. I am free of him. He is dead. If anything I am one of the only westerners with permission to talk about Lee Shing so publically, and that's because of my own Sifus status in the family. I come here to share ideas, only to be flogged continuously by random posters who know little or nothing about the Lee Shing 'way'.


Well im glad you only "rarely" make personal comments about other cultures or countries..... Thats very reassuring.

And the fact that you adhere to things such as "i am the only westernerer with permission" and "my own sifus status in the family" shows where you are stuck.
And then you finish up with "the lee shing way"

Dude (really), why dont you try the Spencer way and stop being a lee shing record thats stuck

[LoneTiger108]

Well im glad you only "rarely" make personal comments about other cultures or countries..... Thats very reassuring.

And the fact that you adhere to things such as "i am the only westernerer with permission" and "my own sifus status in the family" shows where you are stuck.
And then you finish up with "the lee shing way"

Dude (really), why dont you try the Spencer way and stop being a lee shing record thats stuck

Sorry but I see that as no different than anyone here saying they train the Ip Man/WSL/CST/HKM/whatever way. It's just an expression to highlight my origin. That's all.

And to correct you, I said I am one of the only...

And I am far from 'stuck'. I'm just loyal to my Sifu, but I do iunderstand that these things may seem a bit old fashioned to many but it's the way I am dude. I aint apologizing for that.

And let's be real honest here, what have you contributed to this thread exactly?
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1098655&postcount=46

1 post insulting Kevin and the rest are aimed at me... :confused: I'm sorry that you feel the way you do about my background and the way I'm trying to express myself here, but maybe you want to take some of your own advice and criticisms too sometimes?

FWIW Flystudio IS me and only me. But if you think I can take credit for the literature and curriculums I have learnt, think again...

[k gledhill]

Shame you act like a 13 year old

Its a joke dude, a forum.....

[Hendrik]

Here is the nature and raw form of goat stance

this is the idea of what SLT/SNT is about in the begining before many people evolve it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxv0qVxqdOE&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=SP1408CFB0BB5A5F4A


What do you think?


may be some of you dont understand what I am bringing up.

What I am bringing up is

the question of if that YJKYM according to us support the upper body such as in this break dancing clip.

the break dancing clip show a nature way of the lower body supporting the upper body and hand's movement.

Now, if we lock the stance or take a fix posture like putting a concrete instead of a spring stance, it is not going to support the upper body well and the upper and lower body will break under pressure.

Those triangle concept are great, however, those are just an instantaneous state of transformation from a neutral positoin instead of a rigid fix position from begining to end.

So, if a stance is so fixed and clumpsy ;and not echoing the upper body/ arm/hands..because it has all kind of fix rules needs to follow;
the stance cannot even support dancing with ease, with that it is not likely to support a fight. that just shows the evolution of the stance has gone off marks.

Take the above clip seriously and compare with the SLT/SNT practice clip and see.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1098717]may be some of you dont understand what I am bringing up.

What I am bringing up is

the question of if that YJKYM according to us support the upper body such as in this break dancing clip.

------------------------IMO-
You are going off a bit on a tangent Hendrik. The break dancing clip shows a good degree of looseness...but the YGKYM that I do teaches good structure with right joint linkage and flexibility not rigidity.

joy

[Hendrik]

in my understanding,


YJKYM for SLT/SNT training is

a nature parallel feet ,
equal shoulder wide stance,
and the body weight rest on the external side of the legs,
with all legs joints loose up, sligly bend for aliveness;



So

Yee, or two, means parallel feet and egual shoulder wide,
the external side of legs is called Yang (male, positive) side.

it is shoulder wide because that is the optimal for human body in standing and moving the upper body.

it is parallel feet because that is optimal to loose up every joints of legs up to the hip-thight joints. which then influence the spine aliveness.


clamping Yang means rest the body weight in both of the Yang side of the both feets; that way the legs naturally "clamp" , and the out come is a body structure effortless and balancely "root/lavitate" on ground with ease.

all joints of the legs up to the hip-thight joints is loose and effortless. every part of the body is as light weight as feather.


That is the biomechanics.





For those who knows TCMA and Qi and medirians.

Clamping Yang comes naturally with loose and relax leg/lower body instead of using effort to clamping anything. that is because any tensing will disturb the qi flow.

just rest the body weight naturally to the external side, that way the ying side or the inner thigh side will be relax and allow 3 legs' yin medirians' qi flow up to the body and smooth lower abs breathing.

It has to be parallel feet because that is the only way to be able to get all legs to hip joints to loose up and open up the Hui Yin Ren and Du medirians for the small cosmic cycle and also other special medirians.

That is the Qi flow mechanics.




Thus, the YJKYM is doing something similar to the break dance above; it is
loose, with ease, nature, and fully support the upper body's motion and power generation to flow with ease.

You dont have to believe me, try it and see for yourself.



It is my view, this stance has become a blind religion and dead.


it is like the evolution of spiritual to religion. first it is spiritual because that serve a needs then it becomes a religion and lost the spiritual part where every one has to obey it but it is not serving much spiritual at all.



When a stance is no longer nature but man made, you will never see it in the mmA match. if it can support dancing, forget about it to support fighting. so that training is actually useless and even damaging because it get one into bad habit which is un nature.


Just my 5 cents.

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1098717]may be some of you dont understand what I am bringing up.

What I am bringing up is

the question of if that YJKYM according to us support the upper body such as in this break dancing clip.

------------------------IMO-
You are going off a bit on a tangent Hendrik. The break dancing clip shows a good degree of looseness...but the YGKYM that I do teaches good structure with right joint linkage and flexibility not rigidity.

joy


Joy,


1, let's first appreciate all the evolution of YJKYM because everyone is doing their best to satisfy their needs.

2,



For a religion point of view, yes I could be off tangent totally even.

As you know, I am pushing the boundary of "religion" to go back to "spiritual".

I think , for WCKner,

We need to know why we are doing it, how we are doing it, and the result we are expecting. instead of a "religion" because God says so or the Pope says so.


YJKYM is just as its name said, the chinese is very precise in naming.

Letter two means parallel feet and equal shoulder
Clamping Yang means rest the body weight in the yang side of the both legs.

That's all, nothing mysterious or specific application. But supporting all application because it is a neutral nature effortless human stance one uses it daily. Like in the break dance.



Just my 5 cents

[Lee Chiang Po]

If ygkym was not meant as a fighting stance, there would be some other stance trained. Why train in that stance when it is not to be used for fighting? Naturally, when we fight we will not hold the basic stance as it would require us to stand in one place. We move about, that is what footwork is practiced for. We can break the stance up when we move, but still maintain the stance as a basic. In training WC as a young man, I spent many hours just doing the shifting footwork. I moved about quickly too, and could cut you off, move clear of you, angle to your side, and even get in behind you at times. You never see anyone training simple footwork, rapid shifting, things like that. I can run, move in any direction quickly, and all the while maintaining the ygkym stance. I consider it to be a real fighting stance, and I also consider it to be the best fighting stance. I think most people just think it is the sunken, pigeon toed, fists at the arm pit stance. That is just the basic square stance. Or triangle stance as some call it, then there are the side front stances, and even a side horse, or goat. Any stance, jujitsu, karate, boxing, all require that you be able to alter it to meet the need, but everything has to have a basic starting point.

[YouKnowWho]

everything has to have a basic starting point.

It's not tha hard to figure out the best fighting stance for the human body. If you

- face your opponent, you will expose too much area (CON), but both of your hands can reach your opponent (PRO).
- use your side to face your opponent, you will expose less area (PRO), but you have one long arm and one short arm (CON).

Something in between should be better.

If you have

- 50%-50% weight on both legs, before you move, you have to shift more weight to one leg first (CON), but you can shift any leg you want to (PRO).
- 0%-100% weight distribution, you can move your front leg anytime you want to (PRO), but you can only move your front leg (CON).

Something in between should be better.

So a 30%-70% or 40%-60% and 45 degree body turn stance should be the best comprimise fighting stance.

[LoneTiger108]

I consider it to be a real fighting stance, and I also consider it to be the best fighting stance.

I agree. I also have to say that the YJKYM I learnt definitely wasn't standing with even feet (ping ma) it is 'kim' or gripping/pincered which means the toes are turned in slightly and the knees sit a little. Totally alien in the beginning but so natural now.

Also, as TenTigers already mentioned, when drawing a line from toe to toe and the second from heel to heel you will have the 'character two' ;)


45 degree body turn stance should be the best comprimise fighting stance.

I call this pinsan or slanted body and it is present throughout the 2nd, 3rd and wooden man forms, hence why they are specifically 'practical' in nature moreso than SLT which is learnt in ginsan or square body.

[duende]

In our system, not only is YGKYM a fighting stance, but it is the basis for all our stances.

We have a saying in HFY. "It's not the footwork (stance) that is different. It's how you get there that's different"

So essentially beyond any transitioning footwork (ie t-stance etc..), we really only have the one stance. How it is conceived, and how it is employed amongst various facings, ranges, and bridging energy are what is what makes it "seem" different.

However, in terms of structure and actual body mechanics... One can easily see how HFY footworks such as our Buhn Yat Ma and Leung Yi Ma for instance, are derived from the YGKYM.


Of course, our YGKM is quite different than most. As we employ 50/50 footwork and do not lean back like some WC lineages. We also do not bend our knees or toe in our feet to the extreme as seen in many WC's. In general, our stance is also slightly wider too.

It speaks volumes that so many here say the YGKYM is not for fighting and only for form training. Where did such a HUGE disconnect come from? One has to ask. What kind of logic flow is that? Train one way, fight another? Now there's a HUGE problem for ya.

[Vajramusti]

Hendrik with parallel stance you are describing your own ygkym not Ip Man ygkym and Ip man, Ho Kam Ming and Fong chi wing are all Chinese too and understand Chinese terminology.
Experimentally on boats, buses, trains and ice and against reasonable pushing tests the feet's memory of ygkym was validated for me time and again. Its not dogma or religion.

Your commitment to pushing your yik(?) kam version of wing chun comes closer to dogma and religion.

joy

[anerlich]

Nothing like people holding onto the past to feed their ignorance imho.

You were the one that brought up the supposed Brit-hate. And the criticism above Is as applicable to you as to anyone else.

[mvbrown21]

Hendrik,

I'll give you this much. In the lineages that use the ygkym stance for footwork it appears that even if they keep their toes pointed in for the form they do their footwork in the way you're describing. But for us ygkym stance form only guys we see it differently. Neither is right nor wrong, just different structures work for different folks. There's pros and cons in everything and only the religious or ignorant believe there is one path. Try not to be either and you'll spend more time training and less time writing...

[Hendrik]

Hendrik with parallel stance you are describing your own ygkym not Ip Man ygkym and Ip man, Ho Kam Ming and Fong chi wing are all Chinese too and understand Chinese terminology.
Experimentally on boats, buses, trains and ice and against reasonable pushing tests the feet's memory of ygkym was validated for me time and again. Its not dogma or religion.

Your commitment to pushing your yik(?) kam version of wing chun comes closer to dogma and religion.

joy



Joy,

I found you are being defensive and un friendly.



In my post, it is all strict based on human biomechanics and chinese qi flow technical stuffs.

I mention nothing about lineage, so there is no need to bring up lineage and personal attack if you dont like my post.




Re read my post here and see for yourself.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1098743&postcount=57
http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1098740&postcount=56




I choose to reply you this way because I am ok with people have different point of view. However, similar to everyone, I dont like to be attacked wrongly.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

I'll give you this much.

In the lineages that use the ygkym stance for footwork it appears that even if they keep their toes pointed in for the form they do their footwork in the way you're describing.

But for us ygkym stance form only guys we see it differently. Neither is right nor wrong, just different structures work for different folks.



There's pros and cons in everything and only the religious or ignorant believe there is one path.

Try not to be either and you'll spend more time training and less time writing...



Matt,






In the lineages that use the ygkym stance for footwork it appears that even if they keep their toes pointed in for the form they do their footwork in the way you're describing.


So, what is the reason technically to do form and footwork in a different way? Similar to those MMA guys is asking why do WCK practice something which is not useful in real fight?





What is the point for you to post the following toward me?


Try not to be either and you'll spend more time training and less time writing..

is this necessary in a technical discussion?




I simply present my view with the support from the biomechnics and Chinese Qi medirians background. if you have anything technically to discuss please bring it up and share.



Did I say anything about right or wrong in my post? what did I say about evolution? read my post again.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1098743&postcount=57
http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1098740&postcount=56

[mvbrown21]

Hendrik,

Think about it this way. Get in the stance, leave one side with toe pointed in and then point the other side out in the same direction parallel to each other. That's our footwork in a nutshell. It's not the ygkym stance itself but still retains the same structure.

Now I got to go, gung Fu class is about to start here soon and I'm much more interested in training....

[YouKnowWho]

keep their toes pointed in...

The PRO for this stance is you can protect your groin area from kicking. The CON is you give your opponent an easy angle to sweep. The best foot sweep angle is if your opponent sweeps your foot the same direction as your toes is pointing too. Since you have turn your toes in 45 degree, it will save your opponent to turn his body 45 degree. This way, instead of re-adjust his body angle, your opponent can just sweep you without any footwork because you have just given him the body angle that he needs.

If you go to the other extream and turn your toes out, the PRO is you have just taken away your opponeny's foot sweeping opportunity. The CON is you may expose your groin area too much.

Something in between should be better compromise. This way, you can change to either extream to perform different functions much easier.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

Think about it this way.

Get in the stance, leave one side with toe pointed in and then point the other side out in the same direction parallel to each other. That's our footwork in a nutshell. It's not the ykjym stance itself but still retains the same structure.

Now I got to go, gung Fu class is about to start here soon and I'm much more interested in training....



Ok, Thanks for sharing.

[Vajramusti]

In a bit of a hurry- so I will be very brief-

Hendrik- I don't intend to be unfriendly. I just technically disagree with you on ygkym.

Duende- correct- you should be able to fight with ygkym--after a while with practice you fight from any stance.

Lone tiger- I was not dealing with the past but the continuing impact of the past.

Gotta go and do some wing chun

Joy Chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

In a bit of a hurry- so I will be very brief-

Hendrik- I don't intend to be unfriendly. I just technically disagree with you on ygkym.

Duende- correct- you should be able to fight with ygkym--after a while with practice you fight from any stance.

Lone tiger- I was not dealing with the past but the continuing impact of the past.

Gotta go and do some wing chun

Joy Chaudhuri



Joy,

No problem. disagree is ok.

[Lee Chiang Po]

It's not tha hard to figure out the best fighting stance for the human body. If you

- face your opponent, you will expose too much area (CON), but both of your hands can reach your opponent (PRO).
- use your side to face your opponent, you will expose less area (PRO), but you have one long arm and one short arm (CON).

Something in between should be better.

If you have

- 50%-50% weight on both legs, before you move, you have to shift more weight to one leg first (CON), but you can shift any leg you want to (PRO).
- 0%-100% weight distribution, you can move your front leg anytime you want to (PRO), but you can only move your front leg (CON).

Something in between should be better.

So a 30%-70% or 40%-60% and 45 degree body turn stance should be the best comprimise fighting stance.

And this is why we have the side forward stances and the side horse. The lead side covers the outer gate, the rear side covers the inner gate. That can be switched side to side, and the side horse can be applied the same way.
Most everyone that is right handed will lead with their left hand. When they do, I will lead with the right, which puts their own most powerful weapon out of reach of me so to speak. Or at least it will not be easy for them to bring it up and use it on me. If they kick, it will likely be the rear foot, again, the ****hest from me. I can angle step to my right and their kick will burn out at their own center line. If it tags me beyond that point it will have lost a great deal of it's power. Normally I can counter attack when the leg is in the air and the opponent is in a bad position.
You can not really put a % on anything. You just do what you gots to do. I don't really consider the pro and con of giving him more or less target to shoot at, mostly because he will usually have to come around my defenses to get to me anyway. If I mirror him with my lead, I put him at a slight disadvantage. However, it is only a stragegy, and nothing is cut and dried.

[YouKnowWho]

Most everyone that is right handed will lead with their left hand. When they do, I will lead with the right, which puts their own most powerful weapon out of reach of me so to speak. Or at least it will not be easy for them to bring it up and use it on me. If they kick, it will likely be the rear foot,...
I don't like to put strong side back either. When I do that, if my opponent uses my front arm to jam my back arm, I will be in trouble.

We all know that wrestler always put strong side forward. I still think it's better for striker to put strong side forward.

[LoneTiger108]

Lone tiger- I was not dealing with the past but the continuing impact of the past.

Okay Joy. Thanks for explaining, kind of! ;)


You were the one that brought up the supposed Brit-hate.

Dude?? Really??

I will always admit mistakes or apologize if I'm out of order here, but I was on my back foot from the get go for linking the fox and pigeon comments to us Brits, which as I have already admitted may have been my paranoia coming in from another thread!

But you did say, joking or not...


though of course all us Aussies, Irish and Americans hate the Brits

Back to the thread guys! Sorry for the blip...

[CFT]

I think Andrew N's comments about the Brits were tongue in cheek.

Like Joy said, the term pigeon-toed is a common enough term in English-speaking locales.

I have read the same explanaton of the 'yi ji' part of the stance that TenTigers described. i.e. line between toes and line between heels is the Chinese character for 'two'.

The TWC explanation for 'yi ji' at first doesn't make sense since the parallel feet are not the same size. However, if you use 'counting rod' numerals then it would make sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chounumerals.jpg

[LoneTiger108]

I have read the same explanaton of the 'yi ji' part of the stance that TenTigers described. i.e. line between toes and line between heels is the Chinese character for 'two'.

Okay. But are you saying that is NOT what your YJKYM represents? That in fact your understanding uses Chounumerals???

I was 'taught' this by my Sifu, it wasn't something I read about. But I understand that my understanding of what my Sifu taught could be wrong too :eek:

[CFT]

Okay. But are you saying that is NOT what your YJKYM represents? That in fact your understanding uses Chounumerals???

I was 'taught' this by my Sifu, it wasn't something I read about. But I understand that my understanding of what my Sifu taught could be wrong too :eek:It doesn't matter. It's what you do that is more important. I practiced with toes turned in rather than feet parallel.

[trubblman]

I am gonna go out on a limb here and I hope it's not too much flame bait: But to fight in YGKYM ( feet parallel with toes turned in ) has to be the silliest thing I have ever heard of. Anyone who does that has never been in a real fight before. I have seen some lineages 'say' they fight in YGKYM but what they were really doing was standing in a prefight ready position, that was outside of the opponent's punching and kicking. I have never seen or heard of anyone stand in YGKYM go toe-to-toe blow-for-blow. I have seen fighting pigeon toed stances where one foot was forward and one back but that's not IMO YGKYM.

[duende]

I am gonna go out on a limb here and I hope it's not too much flame bait: But to fight in YGKYM ( feet parallel with toes turned in ) has to be the silliest thing I have ever heard of. Anyone who does that has never been in a real fight before. I have seen some lineages 'say' they fight in YGKYM but what they were really doing was standing in a prefight ready position, that was outside of the opponent's punching and kicking. I have never seen or heard of anyone stand in YGKYM go toe-to-toe blow-for-blow. I have seen fighting pigeon toed stances where one foot was forward and one back but that's not IMO YGKYM.

Of course fighting from a fixed position as you describe is ridiculous. You are skipping the entire strategy part of the equation here. On top of that, it's important to recognise how ygkym translates into multiple footworks via engagement angles and facings. And how it comes into play when broken structure of an opponent has been had and superior positioning/leverage comes into play.

Ygkym is where all other stances are born. :)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The stance is used in Silat to pin a downed opponents head just prior to sinking down and crushing thier wind pipe with it.

Having had it done to me in class, I am quite convinced you can kill a man with it.

[YouKnowWho]

The inward stance (both toes point in, both knees bend as close to the ground as possible) can be a very useful combat skill - shin bitting.

[LoneTiger108]

I have seen fighting pigeon toed stances where one foot was forward and one back but that's not IMO YGKYM.

Of course you're right to question a 'flat footed square on' stance and it's suitability for fighting. Every WCK student will at some point! But what makes you think the foot fwd example you give IS NOT YJKYM??


Ygkym is where all other stances are born.:)

I totally agree, coming from a WCK perspective. But I also think Taichi guys will hold a different view and use ping ma as their basic stance platform.

[CFT]

I totally agree, coming from a WCK perspective. But I also think Taichi guys will hold a different view and use ping ma as their basic stance platform.I think duende means the stances used in WCK, not other types of kung fu.

[LoneTiger108]

I think duende means the stances used in WCK, not other types of kung fu.

I did catch that Chee ;)

Even on my latest clip online I (casually!) express part of how I trained YJKYM using snake & crane concepts with some family from Europe. Done the same at the weekend with a brother and it is something I would recommend to anyone who wants to feel the liveliness of Wing Chun interactive methods. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN1e_SvP3dQ

[trubblman]

Of course fighting from a fixed position as you describe is ridiculous. You are skipping the entire strategy part of the equation here. On top of that, it's important to recognise how ygkym translates into multiple footworks via engagement angles and facings. And how it comes into play when broken structure of an opponent has been had and superior positioning/leverage comes into play.

Ygkym is where all other stances are born. :)


I didnt really skip it. Its one thing to say YGKYM is the basis of other fighting stances. I am not disagreeing with that. But I think some are saying that YGKYM is a fighting stance in and of itself. My comment was directed only to that idea.

[LoneTiger108]

I didnt really skip it. Its one thing to say YGKYM is the basis of other fighting stances. I am not disagreeing with that. But I think some are saying that YGKYM is a fighting stance in and of itself. My comment was directed only to that idea.

Interesting ;)

I personally think it IS both examples you mention here. It's the basis for all WCK horse, stepping, angling and shifting AND it can be used to fight with in a 'stationary' or fixed way BECAUSE its the basis for all WCK etc etc

[PalmStriker]

:) There is only one combat technique that I would use the "catch goat" stance for maximized power deliverance. Otherwise, I agree on it's foundation training purposefulness.

[YouKnowWho]

:) There is only one combat technique that I would use the "catch goat" stance for maximized power deliverance. Otherwise, I agree on it's foundation training purposefulness.

It can be used for "shin biting" but I don't think the form creator had thought about it.

9170

[Sihing73]

It can be used for "shin biting" but I don't think the form creator had thought about it.

9170

That is not the YJKM or Pigeon Toed/Goat Restraining stance in that picture. ;)
Once one turns or steps the stance is no longer the one trained in the SNT.
I would expect most with an understanding of Wing Chun to already know that though.

Although one could argue that if you take something out of context you could make it fit into anything you want with the right window dressing.

[YouKnowWho]

Once one turns or steps the stance is no longer the one trained in the SNT.

Will you call this YJKM or Pigeon Toed/Goat Restraining stance?

9171

- Both toes are pointing inward,
- both knees are bending inward.

The only difference is the stance is much wider. It's also a training stance for "shin bite". You use this training stance to reduce the angle between your foot and your lower leg. This way when you use it to bite on your opponent's leg, you can apply more pressure on your opponent's leg.

As for

- training stance, it's similar to the YJKM or Pigeon Toed/Goat Restraining stance.
- combat usage, it can be applied any way that you like.

IMO, you should not let the outlook of the training stance to limit your combat application.

[Sihing73]

Will you call this YJKM or Pigeon Toed/Goat Restraining stance?

9171

- Both toes are pointing inward,
- both knees are bending inward.

The only difference is the stance is much wider. It's also a training stance for "shin bite". You use this training stance to reduce the angle between your foot and your lower leg. This way when you use it to bite on your opponent's leg, you can apply more pressure on your opponent's leg.

Definitely NOT Wing Chun.
There are several other difference than the width of the stance. The center of gravity is different and the groin is open a whole lot more than YJKM, just to begin.
Question, why post on a Wing Chun forum about things you seem to have little experience with?
Like I said before, I did Judo almost 35 years ago, even earned a Black Belt but I have not practiced Judo for at least 25 years.
Should I go post on a Judo forum and expect those who are actually training in Judo to listen to anything I say about Judo??
You trained Wing Chun but by your own admission it was back in the 70's so I would argue that while you may be good at the art you practice, it is not Wing Chun. Adding an element of something to what or how you practice does not mean the same thing as practicing a specific way. Just saying...............:)

Like I said earlier, you can say whatever you want and take things out of context.
If I add meat to broth it could be soup, then again it could be stew there is a world of difference between the two.

There is also a big difference between how a chef would cook and I would, has to do with a deeper understanding of the subject at hand.

[YouKnowWho]

Definitely NOT Wing Chun.
Of course I know it's not WC. Since people all agree that the "pigeon toed stance" is just a "training stance". The outlook of the training stance should not limit your combat application.

The day that you may consider to use your "pigeon toed stance" to stick your leg on your opponent's leg, and build your "leg bridge", you will understand that your "pigeon toed stance" could have more usage than you may think. It's just a "suggestion" for a very valuable combat usage, "build the leg bridge" since so far nobody has mentioned about this so far.

It's just a suggestion and nothing needed to argue about.

[LFJ]

to stick your leg on your opponent's leg, and build your "leg bridge",

Leg bridge? As if trying to stick and build bridges with your arms wasn't crazy enough...

[Sihing73]

Of course I know it's not WC. Since people all agree that the "pigeon toed stance" is just a "training stance". The outlook of the training stance should not limit your combat application.

The day that you may consider to use your "pigeon toed stance" to stick your leg on your opponent's leg, and build your "leg bridge", you will understand that your "pigeon toed stance" has no usage than you may think.

So why continue posting on a Wing Chun forum things that are not Wing Chun???

Please go and read some of my posts; you will see that I have often stated that application will differ from specific practice "techniques"
This is because it is the concept which is used not the shape, in some cases. In other cases the shape is used while applying a concept.

I think you meant to say: you will understand that your "pigeon toed stance" has more usage than you may think
Then again maybe you did mean what you wrote.

[YouKnowWho]

So why continue posting on a Wing Chun forum things that are not Wing Chun???
As I have said, it's just a suggestion and I don't like to get into any argument.

[YouKnowWho]

Please go and read some of my posts; you will see that I have often stated that application will differ from specific practice "techniques"
This is because it is the concept which is used not the shape, in some cases. In other cases the shape is used while applying a concept.
Then we agree that "combat application can be different from training stance". I just suggest another combat application. What are we arguing about here?

[Sihing73]

The day that you may consider to use your "pigeon toed stance" to stick your leg on your opponent's leg, and build your "leg bridge", you will understand that your "pigeon toed stance" could have more usage than you may think. It's just a "suggestion" for a very valuable combat usage, "build the leg bridge" since so far nobody has mentioned about this so far.

I will not try to speak for other lineages but leg bridging was something we were taught early when I did WT.
We usually incorporated from the sidelong stance, which was really just the YJKM turned and weight on the rear leg for simplification.
No need to step outside the system either as it is already built into the Wing Chun I trained.

Of course, if you are looking from outside of the system you could, in error, think you found something new or a novel approach to training.
However, if you train in the system and develop deeper understanding you may come to see that what you thought was absent was there all along.

[YouKnowWho]

leg bridging was something we were taught early when I did WT. ... you may come to see that what you thought was absent was there all along.

If it's already in your WC system, that's excellent. No more argument from me.

[Sihing73]

Then we agree that "combat application can be different from training stance". I just suggest another combat application. What are we arguing about here?

There would be little point in any "training" if it did not develop attributes that carried over to "application" :D

Not really arguing per se, just find it kind of amusing that some from outside the system come to a Wing Chun board and attempt to "school" those who actually practice the system. Not saying those others may not be good at how they do things, just that they may not really understand the art they are commenting on.

For example, I like Silat and I find that it blends well with how I do my Wing Chun. I enjoy it. However, Silat is not Wing Chun and while some of the exercises carry over, it is not the same as doing Wing Chun. Now there is nothing wrong, imho, with blending them if I want, and if someone wants to discuss the similarities that is fine. But is not Wing Chun. So I will not come onto a Wing Chun forum and espouse the art of Silat, I will do that on a Silat forum should I so choose.

Someone who does JKD for example may take some things from Wing Chun and blend it with some other arts, but they are not doing Wing Chun. Also, since they never truly explored Wing Chun they do not have a deep enough understanding of that art to go outside of the system. Now if someone does delve deeper than they can go outside the system but they will still do things from that foundation and a Wing Chun perspective.

When I practiced Pekiti Tirsia I did it from my base of Wing Chun. When you observed my Guru and I interacting you would see that while we used the same movements, we each had a different "flavor". This was due to my foundation of Wing Chun and my movements came from that foundation and concepts. Kind of hard to explain on a forum. Then again I have always said that each person needs to internalize their approach and make the system their own.

This is different that simply training several different arts and throwing them all together and calling it Wing Chun, or whatever system you train.

It is hard enough to have any meaningful discussion with other Wing Chun practitioners than to add those who do not even practice the system.
While much of outside information can be useful, it is not, imo, of benefit to come onto a forum and try to "teach" those who train the system in their own system. Kind of like me going to Germany and trying to teach German to the native inhabitants there. While I may know German, I am sure that any native speaker would know it better than I.

[YouKnowWho]

training several different arts and throwing them all together and calling it Wing Chun ...

I won't call it WC. I will call it "combat".

All I have said was:


It (pigeon toed stance) can be used for ...

I use the WC

- center line theory,
- deflect and strike back at the same time,
- protect center from inside out, and
- double Tan Shou application,

to develop my "rhino (big fist)" strategy. I use WC principles but I don't train WC as a "system". I'm a "cross training" guy. The word "style" has no meaning to me. I only use whatever that I want to use and not any system wants me to use.

If my way of thinking may upset others here, and since you are the moderator, if you want me stay out of all WC threads, I will.

[Sihing73]

to develop my "rhino (big fist)" strategy. I use WC principles but I don't train WC as a "system". I'm a "cross training" guy. The word "style" has no meaning to me. I only use whatever that I want to use and not any system wants me to use.
If my way of thinking may upset others here, and since you are the moderator, if you want me stay out of all WC threads, I will.

Not my forum so I will not tell you to stay away.

However, realize that you come across, at least to me and perhaps some others, as a "jack of all trades, master of none".
Especially when you make statements like I use what I want to and not what any system teaches, to paraphrase.

[bawang]

the stance is called five tigers rip apart sheep stance.

there are soft kung fu styles. there are no FEMINE kung fu styles.

[YouKnowWho]

However, realize that you come across, at least to me and perhaps some others, as a "jack of all trades, master of none".
Especially when you make statements like I use what I want to and not what any system teaches, to paraphrase.
Of course you will need a primary system. After you have a strong primary system as your foundation, you can pick and choose whatever that you like from other systems. All your minor systems are just to enhance your primary system.

[Faux Newbie]

Wing Chun did not develop in a vacuum, it is more similar to other southern gongfu styles than different, so it seems like the more appropriate relation would be dialects of German.

The only reason wing chun is not in the southern forum is because of the popularity of the style, so that its practitioners can populate a whole forum.

One could certainly say that YM did not do the wing chun he first trained, but was open to influence by what was around him.

Additionally, sometimes raising questions is not a search for who is right and wrong, but openness to the pleasant surprise of someone's answer being interesting.

[Frost]

Not my forum so I will not tell you to stay away.

However, realize that you come across, at least to me and perhaps some others, as a "jack of all trades, master of none".
Especially when you make statements like I use what I want to and not what any system teaches, to paraphrase.

really jack of all trades and master of none? I dont always agree with John but calling someone who was a disciple of one of the greatest fighters and masters to come out of china this is a bit silly isnt it?

[Grumblegeezer]

really jack of all trades and master of none? I dont always agree with John but calling someone who was a disciple of one of the greatest fighters and masters to come out of china this is a bit silly isnt it?

Good point. Maybe you could say, "Jack of many trades and master of one"? Regardless, I often disagree with John's observations on WC based on his experiences nearly 40 years ago. But his input is interesting. Sometimes an outsider perspective is a good thing.

[Phil Redmond]

the stance is called five tigers rip apart sheep stance.

there are soft kung fu styles. there are no FEMINE kung fu styles.
You are very wrong. Wu Mei Pai (Ng Mui Pai) is a feminine system. It was tha style that Ng Mui did.

[Sihing73]

really jack of all trades and master of none? I dont always agree with John but calling someone who was a disciple of one of the greatest fighters and masters to come out of china this is a bit silly isnt it?

So using your logic, anyone who trained with Yip Man was definitely good at Wing Chun, yet based on much of the infighting I would propose that is not the case.
Then again using the same logic if my father was a great cardio surgeon and I became a general practitioner I would, by inference, be a great doctor. Not always the case..................again.
Also along your logical line of thought; a great fighter would, by virtue of their ability, naturally produce other great fighters............again not the case.

John admits in his posts that he takes whatever he wants and applies that in his own way and not necessarily in relation to his original style.

He further comes to a Wing Chun forum and posts things which have little, if anything to do with Wing Chun.
He also failed to answer simple questions when I posed them to him, go read my posts and the responses he gave.
To be blunt, in many ways he reminds me of another poster who recently left, and I am sure will return again soon.

I am not saying he is not skilled but again using your logic; Hendrick was reputed to have been a fighter of some note, though not in Wing Chun, so we should give heed to what he said as he fought at one time. :rolleyes:

My main point is that while it is sometimes interesting to hear from someone outside, when they post as though they have the secret sauce then it is time to call them on it. This is a Wing Chun forum and we have enough trouble with people that practice the style without someone with a limited understanding of this system coming and trying to enlighten us.

Compare it to a Harley forum where people discuss Harley motorcycles.
While it may be okay for someone who rides a Honda to come on and post from time to time, would it be proper for the Honda rider to try to school those that actually own and ride a Harley? While some things may be in common some are specific to that brand. While there is a degree of commonality in all martial arts, would you really listen to a Judo guy posting about Wing Chun? Particularily if by their own admission any exposure to Wing Chun training was almost a half century earlier?

[Sihing73]

Good point. Maybe you could say, "Jack of many trades and master of one"? Regardless, I often disagree with John's observations on WC based on his experiences nearly 40 years ago. But his input is interesting. Sometimes an outsider perspective is a good thing.

So which art is he a "Master" of?
Okay, I will say that he is akin to someone with a Liberal Arts Degree, a broad based educational approach and a basic knowledge of several things.
In comparison someone who trains in Wing Chun for a good number of years and develops some skill could be akin to someone completing a graduate program in a specific subject area.

What would happen if someone with a degree in Liberal arts tried to lecture a Professor in the subject he had obtained a degree?
While they may have some insight which could be helpful they do not possess the depth of knowledge or experience of someone trained in their specific curriculum. I am reminded of the story of a brilliant math major who was on the fast track to fame in their field. They thought they found some flaws in their instructors equations, but the reality was that they simply had not advanced enough to fully follow their teachers equations. This is often the case in many things but particularly when someone tries to instruct those who actually do the subject of instruction.

Now with that being said that does not mean I feel John does not bring anything of value to this forum, just that he does not know as much about Wing Chun as he may think.

[Sihing73]

You are very wrong. Wu Mei Pai (Ng Mui Pai) is a feminine system. It was tha style that Ng Mui did.

Had an opportunity some years ago to visit a school in NYC.
Unless I am mistaken this was the only school teaching in the US.
Interesting system in it's own right.

[Frost]

So using your logic, anyone who trained with Yip Man was definitely good at Wing Chun, yet based on much of the infighting I would propose that is not the case.
Then again using the same logic if my father was a great cardio surgeon and I became a general practitioner I would, by inference, be a great doctor. Not always the case..................again.
Also along your logical line of thought; a great fighter would, by virtue of their ability, naturally produce other great fighters............again not the case.

John admits in his posts that he takes whatever he wants and applies that in his own way and not necessarily in relation to his original style.

He further comes to a Wing Chun forum and posts things which have little, if anything to do with Wing Chun.
He also failed to answer simple questions when I posed them to him, go read my posts and the responses he gave.
To be blunt, in many ways he reminds me of another poster who recently left, and I am sure will return again soon.

I am not saying he is not skilled but again using your logic; Hendrick was reputed to have been a fighter of some note, though not in Wing Chun, so we should give heed to what he said as he fought at one time. :rolleyes:

My main point is that while it is sometimes interesting to hear from someone outside, when they post as though they have the secret sauce then it is time to call them on it. This is a Wing Chun forum and we have enough trouble with people that practice the style without someone with a limited understanding of this system coming and trying to enlighten us.

Compare it to a Harley forum where people discuss Harley motorcycles.
While it may be okay for someone who rides a Honda to come on and post from time to time, would it be proper for the Honda rider to try to school those that actually own and ride a Harley? While some things may be in common some are specific to that brand. While there is a degree of commonality in all martial arts, would you really listen to a Judo guy posting about Wing Chun? Particularily if by their own admission any exposure to Wing Chun training was almost a half century earlier?

logic seems to be missing from your post, because logically you cant compare a simple student of an opium addicted largely unknown teacher who owes his fame to kids fighting on roof tops in hong kong and having had a movie star pass through his gym and who was bankrupt upon turning up in hongkong and and taught to scratch together a living (who seems to have taught anyone for the right price) to a disciple (not a regular student an indoor disciple) of probably the most famous fighting master to come out of china in the last century, a man who won the all chinese heavyweight title twice, who taught empty hand fighting throughout the military, who was the youngest faculty member in the Nanjing Central Kuoshu Institute, who upon escaping to taiwan was given a position of Senior Instructor in unarmed training by Presidential edict at the centeral police academy, and a man who was never defeated in countless wrestling, sanda and striaght up challanges,

do you see where im going with this? Yipman was broke when he escaped the mainland, taught to feed himself and if you had enough money you were his student, was largely unkown outside kong kong and his students largely teenagers who slap vested on roof tops, so being his student didnt mean much

Now being an indoor disciple of a man famous for winning fights, being the best fighter in china and later taiwan, a man who didnt need to teach beginners and teenagers as people begged him to teach them, who the president paid to teach his police and military, well that means a little bit more doesnt it? it means you must know the system inside and out and be ready to answer challenges (john was the guy they used to answer challanges when his master wasn't around) and since he has been teaching that art with his masters blessing since 1972 its fair to say he knows that art fairly well no? when did you start teaching wing chun, hell when did you start training it for that matter?

So we can logically say know he mastered one art, and since he one countless challenges, was the heavyweight wrestling champion three years in a row, trained the first american team to go and compete in Taiwan and has posted clips of his students winning in sanda we can also say he knows about fighting can we not, that would be logical no?

ANd that not even going into his longfist background which he started before his wrestling, or the fact he started wing chun back in 78 or so, when did you start it again?

He might have only studied wing chun for a few years, but since where here does it say you have to still train wing chun as your main art or for a set number of years before contributing?

so logically , well you are being a bit silly no?

[Frost]

So which art is he a "Master" of?
Okay, I will say that he is akin to someone with a Liberal Arts Degree, a broad based educational approach and a basic knowledge of several things.
In comparison someone who trains in Wing Chun for a good number of years and develops some skill could be akin to someone completing a graduate program in a specific subject area.

What would happen if someone with a degree in Liberal arts tried to lecture a Professor in the subject he had obtained a degree?
While they may have some insight which could be helpful they do not possess the depth of knowledge or experience of someone trained in their specific curriculum. I am reminded of the story of a brilliant math major who was on the fast track to fame in their field. They thought they found some flaws in their instructors equations, but the reality was that they simply had not advanced enough to fully follow their teachers equations. This is often the case in many things but particularly when someone tries to instruct those who actually do the subject of instruction.

Now with that being said that does not mean I feel John does not bring anything of value to this forum, just that he does not know as much about Wing Chun as he may think.
Shuai jiao, he has been teaching it since the 70s, and was the indoor disciple of the late great Chang Tung Sheng, so over 40 years in that art would qualify as a master no, he has been doing longfist even longer, thats what you class as basic knowledge is it, close to 5 decades in two main arts???? heavyweight champions three years running in one of them? thats a good grounding in chinese arts no? he also did formal wing chun back in the 70s for a few years so has been playing around with wing chun for over 30 years i suppose

want to remove your foot from your mouth yet?

[Frost]

Good point. Maybe you could say, "Jack of many trades and master of one"? Regardless, I often disagree with John's observations on WC based on his experiences nearly 40 years ago. But his input is interesting. Sometimes an outsider perspective is a good thing.

probably master of two, or even three including his teacher taichi?? regardless of length of formal wing chun training someone with such a background would be able to pick any chinese art up quickly would you think? and be better able to judge its merits within the context of chinese martial arts than someone with only one or two arts in their background and with only a mere 10 years of constant training?

[Vajramusti]

probably master of two, or even three including his teacher taichi?? regardless of length of formal wing chun training someone with such a background would be able to pick any chinese art up quickly would you think? and be better able to judge its merits within the context of chinese martial arts than someone with only one or two arts in their background and with only a mere 10 years of constant training?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am confident that 1. John knows his shuai chao and 2. that he can add for his own purposes can add techniques from here and there
from elsewhere.

But his understanding of wing chun is quite shallow. Why are we discussing John? Oh well....

Truly- there is a lot of bad wing chun on the net as well.

[Sihing73]

want to remove your foot from your mouth yet?

Nope, I find it quite satisfying :D

Still does not mean he knows Wing Chun

A point which seems to be obvious so a few others here as well.

Did you get your check from John in the mail yet? ;)

[Sihing73]

logic seems to be missing from your post, because logically you cant compare a simple student of an opium addicted largely unknown teacher who owes his fame to kids fighting on roof tops in hong kong and having had a movie star pass through his gym and who was bankrupt upon turning up in hongkong and and taught to scratch together a living (who seems to have taught anyone for the right price) to a disciple

do you see where im going with this? Yipman was broke when he escaped the mainland, taught to feed himself and if you had enough money you were his student, was largely unkown outside kong kong and his students largely teenagers who slap vested on roof tops, so being his student didnt mean much

when did you start teaching wing chun, hell when did you start training it for that matter?

So we can logically say know he mastered one art, and since he one countless challenges, was the heavyweight wrestling champion three years in a row, trained the first american team to go and compete in Taiwan and has posted clips of his students winning in sanda we can also say he knows about fighting can we not, that would be logical no?

He might have only studied wing chun for a few years, but since where here does it say you have to still train wing chun as your main art or for a set number of years before contributing?

so logically , well you are being a bit silly no?

Wow, you have something against Yip Man and are riding Johns crotch, sorry did not mean to upset your relationship. :eek:

Go back and read my post because I did not only reference Yip Man. Then again it is far easier to refute points if you ignore the whole thought. Now that is certainly logical............at least for you.

Never said he did not know his art, just that he does not know Wing Chun.

As to when I started teaching Wing Chun it was in 1987, that is when I was officially given permission to teach WT.
As to when I started Wing Chun, I started it when I was about 15 after earning a Black Belt in Judo.
So let's see, I am now 50 so that means I have been training in Wing Chun for some 35 years.
While I have also trained in other arts, Wing Chun remains my foundation and part of my regular training.
Oh, I am also listed a "disciple" under Chung Kwok Chow, does that somehow make me special :rolleyes:

Oh, I have worked as a Correctional Officer and Police Officer for a number of years too. During that time I had some encounters which were less than friendly. I mean people actually trying to hurt or kill me. I am still here, does that make me some kind of super man or awesome fighter? Not necessarily, I could just be really lucky.

How long have you been doing Wing Chun??

One truth is that it really does not matter how long someone has been training but rather the quality of that training that matters.

But Joy is correct, no need to keep discussing John, his knowledge of Wing Chun is not as deep as his main system. I concede he is able to blend things from other arts to enhance his own approach, which I believe is the traditional method. However, his grasp of Wing Chun is not as deep as he would seem to think.

[Frost]

Wow, you have something against Yip Man and are riding Johns crotch, sorry did not mean to upset your relationship. :eek:

Go back and read my post because I did not only reference Yip Man. Then again it is far easier to refute points if you ignore the whole thought. Now that is certainly logical............at least for you.

Never said he did not know his art, just that he does not know Wing Chun.

As to when I started teaching Wing Chun it was in 1987, that is when I was officially given permission to teach WT.
As to when I started Wing Chun, I started it when I was about 15 after earning a Black Belt in Judo.
So let's see, I am now 50 so that means I have been training in Wing Chun for some 35 years.
While I have also trained in other arts, Wing Chun remains my foundation and part of my regular training.
Oh, I am also listed a "disciple" under Chung Kwok Chow, does that somehow make me special :rolleyes:

Oh, I have worked as a Correctional Officer and Police Officer for a number of years too. During that time I had some encounters which were less than friendly. I mean people actually trying to hurt or kill me. I am still here, does that make me some kind of super man or awesome fighter? Not necessarily, I could just be really lucky.

How long have you been doing Wing Chun??

One truth is that it really does not matter how long someone has been training but rather the quality of that training that matters.

But Joy is correct, no need to keep discussing John, his knowledge of Wing Chun is not as deep as his main system. I concede he is able to blend things from other arts to enhance his own approach, which I believe is the traditional method. However, his grasp of Wing Chun is not as deep as he would seem to think.
riding johns crotch? really you should again remove your foot from your mouth the taste must be quite bad by now, read any of the threads here over the years and you will see i disagree alot with him, on strength training, on submission grappling and mma in particular, BUT to call someone who started wing chun a decade before you a jack of all trades is a bit silly no?

And i have nothing against yip man but the differences between him and johns teacher are night and day wouldnt you agree? and thus who they taught and how they taught also different

[Sihing73]

riding johns crotch? really you should again remove your foot from your mouth the taste must be quite bad by now, read any of the threads here over the years and you will see i disagree alot with him, on strength training, on submission grappling and mma in particular, BUT to call someone who started wing chun a decade before you a jack of all trades is a bit silly no?

And i have nothing against yip man but the differences between him and johns teacher are night and day wouldnt you agree? and thus who they taught and how they taught also different

To paraphrase a saying;

It is not the one who starts first but the one who understands that is the senior.
By the way, Frost, when was it you said you started Wing Chun?
Perhaps your grasp of the art is also shallow...............not sure if that is the case but then again :confused:

Frost, you seem to have an oral fixation, good luck with that :p

If you wish to continue discussing John then I suggest we do it on another thread or by IM rather than we keep going on this thread.

[Frost]

To paraphrase a saying;

It is not the one who starts first but the one who understands that is the senior.
By the way, Frost, when was it you said you started Wing Chun?
Perhaps your grasp of the art is also shallow...............not sure if that is the case but then again :confused:

Frost, you seem to have an oral fixation, good luck with that :p

If you wish to continue discussing John then I suggest we do it on another thread or by IM rather than we keep going on this thread.

Oh I see as per usual you want to get the last word in then seek to close a thread, high-handed and sarcastic well done you �� well I started wing Chun 2002 but why does that matter when you say its not the one who starts first but the one one who understands it better.... honestly I see wing chun as an inferior southern art which no one seems to be able to show actually working as they say it should, it has it's uses in certain circumstances as part of a larger skillset at least for me and since no one here can post it being used as they say it should outside the confines of their own gym with compliant students ill stand by thy view, I just like visiting this forum as some of the threads are funny as hell , and some of the posters unintentionally funny and stuck up �� by the way dont you think my point in yip man is correct? He was penniless upon arriving in Hong Kong no? He was largely a no one outside Hong Kong and did teach to make a living and did take money from anyone to survive no?

[Sihing73]

Oh I see as per usual you want to get the last word in then seek to close a thread, high-handed and sarcastic well done you �� well I started wing Chun 2002 but why does that matter when you say its not the one who starts first but the one one who understands it better.... honestly I see wing chun as an inferior southern art which no one seems to be able to show actually working as they say it should, it has it's uses in certain circumstances as part of a larger skillset at least for me and since no one here can post it being used as they say it should outside the confines of their own gym with compliant students ill stand by thy view, I just like visiting this forum as some of the threads are funny as hell , and some of the posters unintentionally funny and stuck up �� by the way dont you think my point in yip man is correct? He was penniless upon arriving in Hong Kong no? He was largely a no one outside Hong Kong and did teach to make a living and did take money from anyone to survive no?

Frost,

Are you off your meds?? :o

Where did I imply anything about closing a thread?
Yip Man had a history before Hong Kong, perhaps you should research that to get a better overall picture of his level of skill.
Given that you feel Wing Chun is an inferior system, I am curious as to why you train it or post on a forum dedicated to that art?
Oh, that's right you find some of the posts and those who post "funny as hell", I can assure you that you may be viewed in the same vein.
So lets see, you started Wing Chun in 2002, feel it is inferior and apparently without any real value. (It was you who brought the amount of time spent training up)
And who are you again?? What is your claim to fame to make your opinion of value to anyone, particularly to me?
Please continue your life and POV as you wish, I do wish you well.
I do not need the last word so please feel free to post again as I am sure you will need to.

I will add you to my view of those with limited Wing Chun understanding and consider your opinions in that same light.
To be blunt, Just as my opinion hardly matters to others on the internet, your opinion matters even less to me. ;)

Come on now. get that last word in, don't disappoint me :D

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Frost;1277710]logic seems to be missing from your post, because logically you cant compare a simple student of an opium addicted largely unknown teacher who owes his fame to kids fighting on roof tops in hong kong and having had a movie star pass through his gym and who was bankrupt upon turning up in hongkong and and taught to scratch together a living (who seems to have taught anyone for the right price) to a disciple (not a regular student an indoor disciple) of probably the most famous fighting master to come out of china in the last century, a man who won the all chinese heavyweight title twice, who taught empty hand fighting throughout the military, who was the youngest faculty member in the Nanjing Central Kuoshu Institute, who upon escaping to taiwan was given a position of Senior Instructor in unarmed training by Presidential edict at the centeral police academy, and a man who was never defeated in countless wrestling, sanda and striaght up challanges,

do you see where im going with this? Yipman was broke when he escaped the mainland, taught to feed himself and if you had enough money you were his student, was largely unkown outside kong kong and his students largely teenagers who slap vested on roof tops, so being his student didnt mean much

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frost's comments on Ip man involves considerable cherry picking and is quite incomplete. I have great respect for John's teacher and acknowledge John's achievements. Comparing John's teacher with Ip man is irrelevant. Different practitioners, different styles and different acheivements.
Yes- a lot of people learned bits and pieces of wing chun from Ip man- most got a superficial understanding of the art. A mere handful learned wing chun in depth.
Ip Man in his time was involved in real fights--without You tube videos. He was known and respected in Foshan before the post civil war, hurting a person badly and being on the losing Kuomintang side had him head for Macao and then Hong Kong. he represented the Foshan community in a well attended challenge match
where he flung a well known Northern mantis master with a lop sao move. This not a defense of Ip Man because he needs no defender.

I began wing chun in 1976- it is my core art-- though my continuous interest in martial arts including practical experience predates my wing chun and that broad interest continues today. My interest in wing chun had nothing to do with Bruce Lee and I did not know much about Ip Man initially.
It is meeting my wing chun teacher-Augustine Fong and comparing things with him and his best students that got me started with with wing chun. From there my
view of the wingchun world broadened with meeting other Ip man students including my sigung Ho Kam Ming (and many of his students later) Wong Shon Leung, Tsui tsong tin, Victor Kan and Hawkins Cheung and many in the next generation. So I found Ip Man by tracing him backwards from the empirical world
and I have never regretted it. A girl friend of one of my past wing chun students has seen Ip man in action.Her father was a private student. Some kicking artists showed up and challenged Ip Man- the old man threw them all over the place.I have worked out with folks from most major striking and grappling arts... and have trained several topflight students. Real wing chun is a substantial and still relatively unknown style of non sporting self defense.

Based on all this. I can tell you that John's understanding of wing chun is quite superficial. He worked out with a couple of wing chun people- college students in Austin and he knows another underachiever whose bad biu gee looks similar to John's. He only after some "techniques " in wing chun and he has it wrong.
Double tan sao is nota technique- it is a developmental motion for developing some attributes.John cannot add wing chun to his trophy collection.

[PalmStriker]

:) I am also a Cherry Picker of Techniques. I limit my practice to only that which I will use without reservation. If I speak of a technique on this forum it will only be WingChun, otherwise I will seek out a thread or start one in another forum that has to do with anything unrelated to the art. *Quote on the subject : He taught them short bridge and narrow stance (短橋窄馬) instead and modified the big stance to the er zi qian yang stance (二字箝羊馬) [a pair of pliers on a goat]. In practice, the two feet were about a foot apart and the two knees were but a few inches apart. In such a position, the feet would be like a pair of pliers (箝), and if you were riding on a goat’s neck, it would not be able to free its head and escape because of the force of your feet and that was why it was so named.

[Vajramusti]

:) I am also a Cherry Picker of Techniques. I limit my practice to only that which I will use without reservation. If I speak of a technique on this forum it will only be WingChun, otherwise I will seek out a thread or start one in another forum that has to do with anything unrelated to the art. *Quote on the subject : He taught them short bridge and narrow stance (短橋窄馬) instead and modified the big stance to the er zi qian yang stance (二字箝羊馬) [a pair of pliers on a goat]. In practice, the two feet were about a foot apart and the two knees were but a few inches apart. In such a position, the feet would be like a pair of pliers (箝), and if you were riding on a goat’s neck, it would not be able to free its head and escape because of the force of your feet and that was why it was so named.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Diversity and chaos in the wing chun world. The stance is sometimes also called the character two adduction stance.

[PalmStriker]

Yes, that quote was from TCMA Weng Chun material (not to confused with German stuffs), here is excerpt from Post #8 of this thread: :) The Hidden Power of Siu Nim Tau

My master Yip Man first started teaching Ving Tsun in Hong Kong at the Restaurant Worker's Union Association. At the time I was the secretary of the association, so Master Yip and I had many opportunities to be together. Before I became interested in Ving Tsun, I often overheard Master Yip explaining his Ving Tsun theories in his classes. Gradually he sparked my interest in the art. It so happened that I had great interest in physics and mechanics; I enjoyed his theories on body structure and power development methods very much. Through my careful analysis, I was convinced that Master Yip's art was flawless and very advanced. Finally, I decided to follow Master Yip and became his student.

Like every beginner in class, I started my journey with Siu Nim Tau , even though I had already familiarized myself with the form as an observer. It took me little effort to completely learn the basic movements. I then began to wonder about the essence of the form, besides the hand movements. I went to Master Yip and inquired about the meaning of Siu Nim Tau, especially the non-combative tone in the name. Master Yip replied: "This is about Lop Nim -- to establish an idea in the mind". I am sure most of my peers have also heard about this term. Master Yip also added that it required prolonged practice of this form to truly master the essence of lop nim.

This hidden meaning of lop nim really caught my interest. I spent much time analyzing its nature, but could still not grasp the concept. Therefore I decided to drop all my thoughts and simply practiced Siu Nim Tau whenever I could, day and night. After a long time, I began to see the connection between lop nim and the form. I suddenly felt great joy in my Ving Tsun training, which fueled my interest in the art further. I became obsessed with the art. Gradually I discovered some powerful but hidden forces within each Siu Nim Tau movement. All the movements are indeed able to deliver indestructible power, yet they look very soft and graceful. At that moment, the concept of lop nim became extremely enlightening and inspiring to me. I finally understood the reason behind it.

I summarize this hidden power as a kind of nim lik (the force of an idea; or mind/intent force, where nim is the same idea/intent as in nim tau ). In essence, Siu Nim Tau has two major points: nim lik and "structure".

1. Nim Lik (force of idea/intent): it stabilizes all Ving Tsun movements to form a springy and dynamic combination of body structures. It makes Ving Tsun body structure able to sustain great pressure and produce rebound energy. Although there are common terms such as nim lik, qigong, noigong or supernatural abilities that are being perceived as some kind of unusual power, here I would only illustrate the concept behind nim lik (force of idea/intent). Nim lik is the power of a highly focused mind. It helps one bring forth chi flow into every part of the body. Everyone should have this kind of power. However, without training, it is very difficult to focus thoughts. Siu Nim Tau is a great tool to invoke mind focus power. If properly practiced, one can deliver this kind of power at will in every instance. The mind can stay focused even when the structure is adjusting or moving at high speed. So to achieve nim lik is the goal of Siu Nim Tau.

Let's look at a simple example: if a healthy person falls down from a 6 - 7 feet tall platform unprepared, although he/she lands with both feet, he/she is still likely to injury him/herself. However, if the person is mentally prepared for the fall, his/her feet will automatically recoil and absorb the impact. Also, he/she can only have this reflex if his/her feet are relax. This is an unique attribute of human muscle in its relax state. The springy force on the feet that help the person land safely is a direct result of relax muscles and nim lik.

note: according to contemporary scientific findings; when human muscles are in relax state and are moving at steady speed, they can sustain greater pressure than when they are tensed up (using force). It is so amazing that our Ving Tsun ancestor Ng Mui was able to make use of this scientific method to design our Siu Nim Tau hundreds of years ago

2. Structure: Yee Gee Kim Yang Ma allows one to project all energy forward towards the target. Tei Gong (pulling up of the muscle around the anus area) helps unite body and stance. It also helps relax the leg muscles while being in the stance; thus the whole body reaches a highly alert and ready state. These are the necessary conditions to produce nim lik and must be maintained firmly. The core techniques of Siu Nim Tau -- Tan / Bong / Fook -- are indeed subtle uses of body mechanics. These three techniques take the shape of arcs or bows. As we extend the arc shape further, Tan / Bong / Fook become hemispheres. As we all know, an arc or spherical-shaped object can sustain strong impact. It can also transfer or deflect energy dynamically when spinning. A wheel can accelerate faster than objects of other shapes (e.g. square, triangle). Each movement in Siu Nim Tau, inspired by this efficient arc-like structure, and when combined with nim lik, becomes extremely powerful defensive and offensive techniques. In addition, practitioners must not employ brute muscle strength. Siu Nim Tau training should never be tiring. To be proficient in this foundation, all movements should be done with the mind rather than strength.

Many Ving Tsun practitioners like to impose their techniques into frozen and static postures. Many believe that Bong Sau should be done at certain height or angle, or criticize others for not complying to their artificial standards. Some may call this style traditionalist; that style reformist; and on and on. In fact, movements in Siu Nim Tau are not named as if they were static postures. For example, when rolling up Tan Sau into Bong Sau, it is the course of this rolling movement that makes up the Bong Sau technique; the function of Bong Sau exists in its circular motion. Similarly, all other techniques in Siu Nim Tau employ circular movements in various directions.

It is a popular belief that Bong Sau is a passive technique: practitioners only use Bong Sau to deflect incoming forces. This would apply to the scenario where a statically posted Bong Sau is being used to block attacks. However, this explanation lacks an understanding of Bong Sau. In my experience, Bong Sau can deliver enormous offensive power. Indeed, it is a very aggressive and penetrating technique due to its circular nature.

Finally, I suggest that all fellow Ving Tsun practitioners look carefully into each technique of Siu Nim Tau. Discover the subtle circular movements in each of them. Practice with mind focus and steady speed. Use the mind to command each technique rather than using muscle tension. I am sure you will gradually find great joy and satisfaction in your Siu Nim Tau training!





Tsui Sheung Tin

[GlennR]

Yes, that quote was from TCMA Weng Chun material (not to confused with German stuffs), here is excerpt from Post #8 of this thread: :) The Hidden Power of Siu Nim Tau

My master Yip Man first started teaching Ving Tsun in Hong Kong at the Restaurant Worker's Union Association. At the time I was the secretary of the association, so Master Yip and I had many opportunities to be together. Before I became interested in Ving Tsun, I often overheard Master Yip explaining his Ving Tsun theories in his classes. Gradually he sparked my interest in the art. It so happened that I had great interest in physics and mechanics; I enjoyed his theories on body structure and power development methods very much. Through my careful analysis, I was convinced that Master Yip's art was flawless and very advanced. Finally, I decided to follow Master Yip and became his student.

Like every beginner in class, I started my journey with Siu Nim Tau , even though I had already familiarized myself with the form as an observer. It took me little effort to completely learn the basic movements. I then began to wonder about the essence of the form, besides the hand movements. I went to Master Yip and inquired about the meaning of Siu Nim Tau, especially the non-combative tone in the name. Master Yip replied: "This is about Lop Nim -- to establish an idea in the mind". I am sure most of my peers have also heard about this term. Master Yip also added that it required prolonged practice of this form to truly master the essence of lop nim.

This hidden meaning of lop nim really caught my interest. I spent much time analyzing its nature, but could still not grasp the concept. Therefore I decided to drop all my thoughts and simply practiced Siu Nim Tau whenever I could, day and night. After a long time, I began to see the connection between lop nim and the form. I suddenly felt great joy in my Ving Tsun training, which fueled my interest in the art further. I became obsessed with the art. Gradually I discovered some powerful but hidden forces within each Siu Nim Tau movement. All the movements are indeed able to deliver indestructible power, yet they look very soft and graceful. At that moment, the concept of lop nim became extremely enlightening and inspiring to me. I finally understood the reason behind it.

I summarize this hidden power as a kind of nim lik (the force of an idea; or mind/intent force, where nim is the same idea/intent as in nim tau ). In essence, Siu Nim Tau has two major points: nim lik and "structure".

1. Nim Lik (force of idea/intent): it stabilizes all Ving Tsun movements to form a springy and dynamic combination of body structures. It makes Ving Tsun body structure able to sustain great pressure and produce rebound energy. Although there are common terms such as nim lik, qigong, noigong or supernatural abilities that are being perceived as some kind of unusual power, here I would only illustrate the concept behind nim lik (force of idea/intent). Nim lik is the power of a highly focused mind. It helps one bring forth chi flow into every part of the body. Everyone should have this kind of power. However, without training, it is very difficult to focus thoughts. Siu Nim Tau is a great tool to invoke mind focus power. If properly practiced, one can deliver this kind of power at will in every instance. The mind can stay focused even when the structure is adjusting or moving at high speed. So to achieve nim lik is the goal of Siu Nim Tau.

Let's look at a simple example: if a healthy person falls down from a 6 - 7 feet tall platform unprepared, although he/she lands with both feet, he/she is still likely to injury him/herself. However, if the person is mentally prepared for the fall, his/her feet will automatically recoil and absorb the impact. Also, he/she can only have this reflex if his/her feet are relax. This is an unique attribute of human muscle in its relax state. The springy force on the feet that help the person land safely is a direct result of relax muscles and nim lik.

note: according to contemporary scientific findings; when human muscles are in relax state and are moving at steady speed, they can sustain greater pressure than when they are tensed up (using force). It is so amazing that our Ving Tsun ancestor Ng Mui was able to make use of this scientific method to design our Siu Nim Tau hundreds of years ago

2. Structure: Yee Gee Kim Yang Ma allows one to project all energy forward towards the target. Tei Gong (pulling up of the muscle around the anus area) helps unite body and stance. It also helps relax the leg muscles while being in the stance; thus the whole body reaches a highly alert and ready state. These are the necessary conditions to produce nim lik and must be maintained firmly. The core techniques of Siu Nim Tau -- Tan / Bong / Fook -- are indeed subtle uses of body mechanics. These three techniques take the shape of arcs or bows. As we extend the arc shape further, Tan / Bong / Fook become hemispheres. As we all know, an arc or spherical-shaped object can sustain strong impact. It can also transfer or deflect energy dynamically when spinning. A wheel can accelerate faster than objects of other shapes (e.g. square, triangle). Each movement in Siu Nim Tau, inspired by this efficient arc-like structure, and when combined with nim lik, becomes extremely powerful defensive and offensive techniques. In addition, practitioners must not employ brute muscle strength. Siu Nim Tau training should never be tiring. To be proficient in this foundation, all movements should be done with the mind rather than strength.

Many Ving Tsun practitioners like to impose their techniques into frozen and static postures. Many believe that Bong Sau should be done at certain height or angle, or criticize others for not complying to their artificial standards. Some may call this style traditionalist; that style reformist; and on and on. In fact, movements in Siu Nim Tau are not named as if they were static postures. For example, when rolling up Tan Sau into Bong Sau, it is the course of this rolling movement that makes up the Bong Sau technique; the function of Bong Sau exists in its circular motion. Similarly, all other techniques in Siu Nim Tau employ circular movements in various directions.

It is a popular belief that Bong Sau is a passive technique: practitioners only use Bong Sau to deflect incoming forces. This would apply to the scenario where a statically posted Bong Sau is being used to block attacks. However, this explanation lacks an understanding of Bong Sau. In my experience, Bong Sau can deliver enormous offensive power. Indeed, it is a very aggressive and penetrating technique due to its circular nature.

Finally, I suggest that all fellow Ving Tsun practitioners look carefully into each technique of Siu Nim Tau. Discover the subtle circular movements in each of them. Practice with mind focus and steady speed. Use the mind to command each technique rather than using muscle tension. I am sure you will gradually find great joy and satisfaction in your Siu Nim Tau training!





Tsui Sheung Tin

Yep, it's all about point 2..... Without it you are wasting your time

[Vajramusti]

Yep, it's all about point 2..... Without it you are wasting your time
----------------------------------------------------------
Hi Glenn-true.
Ever good system has it's own ideal structure.
Did you see Golovkin's quick knockout of Rubio. Golovkin has the structure for power
in both hands. The knockout with the down ward left hand landing high on Rubio's forehead was a real finisher.

[Faux Newbie]

Given the topic matter is a stance common to a ton of kung fu styles, I would say that a respected practitioner of another style discussing the virtues of that stance is a wee bit more than a "college student" talking to a master, unless someone can show that Wing Chun's developed entirely independently of common practices related to that stance in kung fu. And then show how the speaker is the master and the person they are talking about is the student. On that stance as they can use it.

And the stance determines the structure as a primary influence, the style only secondarily, and how styles differ on stances falls into a very narrow range of common developments, often by region or group practicing it.

For example, being a black belt in judo may give one insight into throws, being a disciple of a Chinese throwing style logically would infer greater knowledge of Chinese throws. If hierarchies are the goal.

I'm not sure that will exactly rule out John as an authority here.:D

[bawang]

You are very wrong. Wu Mei Pai (Ng Mui Pai) is a feminine system. It was tha style that Ng Mui did.
ng mui was an imaginary person from a five dollar street novel and if she was real i guarentee you ng mui was butch.

all the real women warriors in chinese history fought like men and even looked like men.

[Vajramusti]

Given the topic matter is a stance common to a ton of kung fu styles, I would say that a respected practitioner of another style discussing the virtues of that stance is a wee bit more than a "college student" talking to a master, unless someone can show that Wing Chun's developed entirely independently of common practices related to that stance in kung fu. And then show how the speaker is the master and the person they are talking about is the student. On that stance as they can use it.

And the stance determines the structure as a primary influence, the style only secondarily, and how styles differ on stances falls into a very narrow range of common developments, often by region or group practicing it.

For example, being a black belt in judo may give one insight into throws, being a disciple of a Chinese throwing style logically would infer greater knowledge of Chinese throws. If hierarchies are the goal.

I'm not sure that will exactly rule out John as an authority here.:D
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are differences in stances even among wing chun folks.
I do not focus on John. I just don't think that he knows much about wing chun.
Yes judo and shuai chao are primarily throwing arts.
Good wing chun people can throw too- it is situational and contextual.

[Faux Newbie]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are differences in stances even among wing chun folks.
I do not focus on John. I just don't think that he knows much about wing chun.
Yes judo and shuai chao are primarily throwing arts.
Good wing chun people can throw too- it is situational and contextual.

What he knows about that stance is the topic matter. To endorse a "he is an undergrad and others are professors" logic is dependent on making the discussion about who knows wing chun, not who knows that stance's utility.

Additionally, one can know the same content from different approaches. When people bypass this to define who knows the real wing chun, it's a really weak argument on their part. Especially considering that wing chun's usage of stance is not a complete redesign of kung fu that influences wing chun and many other styles. If they do want to suggest it is entirely different, then they have a lot more scholarly work ahead of them than simply discounting everyone who doesn't do wing chun.

Basically, I cannot see how John is more offensive than calling a recognized and proven kung fu man a neophyte in a conversation involving one stance that he uses in his own style. I can't think of a person who tries more to keep civil conversation going and never insults more than John, and I've argued points with him plenty.

[GlennR]

----------------------------------------------------------
Hi Glenn-true.
Ever good system has it's own ideal structure.
Did you see Golovkin's quick knockout of Rubio. Golovkin has the structure for power
in both hands. The knockout with the down ward left hand landing high on Rubio's forehead was a real finisher.

Sure did watch him joy, he's pretty special.
And you're right, he just has power everywhere, and you can see it all comes from his structure.... From his toes to his fingertips.

[Phil Redmond]

Because I am from the William Cheung branch we do not use this at all. . .
We do use the goat restraining stance in TWC except the toe are parallel like the character 2. The stance is called Yee Jee Kim Yeung Man. Character 2 clamping/pinching the goat stance.

. .