Lineage Change

[GlennR]

Hi all

So, needless to say, theres been a bit of inter-lineage squabbling lately (thanks KG & GH, all good fun) but im interested in how many have changed lineage, why they did it, and if its been of benefit to them. And if anyone has regretted the change also.

Id also be interested in hearing from the guys that have stuck with one and are happy to stay where they are.

Having come from good exposure to 2 lineages (TST & a mainland style), im open minded to the different approaches.

Anyway.... fire away

GlennR

[GlennR]

Heres one for you Kevin

You said this on a post when i asked you about your previous lineage...

"V Kan .
The system was taught without the elbow development and why.
wristing sticky hands Chi Sao. No jum sao ....using tan as a block leaving the line.
And more....once I had certain elements from PB I could see the reasons for confusion and plain gaps in a lot of others too.
Not secrets or marketing. "


Was there anything in the VK system you preferred to the PB system?

[kowloonboy]

Hi all

So, needless to say, theres been a bit of inter-lineage squabbling lately (thanks KG & GH, all good fun) but im interested in how many have changed lineage, why they did it, and if its been of benefit to them. And if anyone has regretted the change also.

Id also be interested in hearing from the guys that have stuck with one and are happy to stay where they are.

Having come from good exposure to 2 lineages (TST & a mainland style), im open minded to the different approaches.

Anyway.... fire away

GlennR

Hi, sorry I am new to Wing Chun, could you tell me what TST stands for? Thanks :)

[LoneTiger108]

I've never felt the need to change, but I did 'leave' my Sifu after our unspoken contract was done! :D Then, I researched other families and met as many Sifus in the UK as I could to see what the outside world was doing ;)

My Sifu started teaching officially in 1978 and he still has guys with him that started back then. They went everywhere and experienced all sorts of different approaches but still never found anything or anyone like him. Just saying :)

[CFT]

Hi, sorry I am new to Wing Chun, could you tell me what TST stands for? Thanks :)Tsui Shong Tin, direct Yip Man student. Possibly the oldest surviving HK student.

[GlennR]

Hi, sorry I am new to Wing Chun, could you tell me what TST stands for? Thanks :)



Sure... its a common abbreviation for him, this should help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_Shong-tin

[GlennR]

I've never felt the need to change, but I did 'leave' my Sifu after our unspoken contract was done! :D Then, I researched other families and met as many Sifus in the UK as I could to see what the outside world was doing ;)

My Sifu started teaching officially in 1978 and he still has guys with him that started back then. They went everywhere and experienced all sorts of different approaches but still never found anything or anyone like him. Just saying :)

Thanks for sharing Spencer

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1098472

Id also be interested in hearing from the guys that have stuck with one and are happy to stay where they are.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Glenn- just answering your question- not selling or recruiting:
It was my great good fortune to be living in Tucson 1972-1979)- where I met my sifu Augustine Fong and began wing chun regularly in 1976. After 1979 I traveled weekend from Las Cruces, New Mexico friday through Sundays for instruction 79-85..then traveled from Tempe to Tucson once a month and seminars 85 to now.
I did other martial stuff before wing chun and have had some instruction to some other kung fu. I have not changed lineages and don't plan to. I have visited quite a few other wing chun places and done chi sao with some very well known people.
I don't change because my exposure to wing chun opened a gateway to understanding much about being natural, open and experimental and this continues and evolves.

I do not put down other major IM wing chun lineages, and respect people's choices of any other
wing chun or martial art or sport.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

I do not put down other major IM wing chun lineages, and respect people's choices of any other wing chun or martial art or sport.

Very wise words Joy, but you previously said...


Hi Glenn- just answering your question- not selling or recruiting

As if others here are? A 'silent dig' at the PB boys I wonder??

Many of us here that try to exchange openly with the forum are not 'selling' or 'recriuiting' too :) and you might want to remember that

[ntc]

"Originally Posted by Vajramusti

Very wise words Joy, but you previously said...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vajramusti
Hi Glenn- just answering your question- not selling or recruiting

As if others here are? A 'silent dig' at the PB boys I wonder??

Many of us here that try to exchange openly with the forum are not 'selling' or 'recriuiting' too and you might want to remember that
"

--> I don't think Joy meant that; he doesn't strike me as that type of person. I believe all he was trying to do was to add a disclaimer that he was not trying to promote or sell the Augustine Fong lineage with his positive remarks.

Regarding myself, I have been with Sifu Ho Kam Ming since the early 70s in Macao. Throughout the course of time I've had the chance to visit with a number of different Ip Man lineages, including personal acquaintances with WSL, LT, Kenneth Chong, Stephen Chan, Chow Tze Chuen, Francis Fong, and quite a few others themselves. I have to admit, though, I have little to no experience with WC outside the Ip Man line and so cannot comment on them. In addition, I have had the opportunity to do exchanges and research with other styles such as Long Fist, Bak Mei (White Eyebrow), Yau Gong Moon, CLF, Hung Gar, Mok Gar, Southern Dragon, Nan Chuan, as well as the Korean and Japanese styles Tae Kwon Do, Goju Ryu, Karate, and Aikido. And I found that the deeper I dove into kung fu, the more I really appreciated having Sifu Ho Kam Ming as my teacher, and how deeply I really loved WC. He was very meticulous in explaining things to us, made us explore and question what we were doing to make sure we understood and not just do, constantly challenged us, and was adamant about having good, solid foundations as a pre-cursore to the more advanced aspects of WC. If you did not have solid foundation, you were not moved on, and yes, you could leave the school then if you were frustrated. He placed a lot of emphasis on developing reaction skills through close-range sensitivity via Chi Sao, and I have to say that I have not seen too many schools that do Chi Sao the way HKM lineage does it. He was very clear when it came to training and which aspect were a part of building structure, developing WC skills, or getting ready for combats and tournaments. We were all pretty much like a family and we all treated him like a fatherly figure. I have a lot of wonderful memories from that.

I feel very fortunate to have come across HKM at the beginning of my kung fu journey, then having him guide me along the way, and now cherish the opportunity to pass on what I learned to my own students. I have also had the opportunity to train a Golden Glove boxer, Muay Thai fighters, a Navy Seal, law enforcement officers, and fighters from other disciplines, and loved seeing how they were able to apply their newly-acquired WC close-range fighting skills to their style, and how they made themselves much more effecient/effective fighters as a result.

And, just as Joy said, I am not trying to market or sell Ho Kam Ming... just relating back to the title of the thread on why I liked my lineage.

[Vajramusti]

Lone Tiger- NTC is correct- I was not attacking anyone- just a disclaimer.

Sigung Ho's knowledge
of Ip man and his art is deep and extensive... and like good gung fu folks his students have personalized what they have learned...Fong, Lui, Tam, Chan,Buddy, NTC,Kiet. Leung , several Chinese women,and others.
He is not the marketing type and is a fairly stern old school teacher. When he goes much wing chun knowledge will go with him.

Being of Indian descent, I doubt that Tp Man would have taught me(in the old days)... but am grateful that I learned something about his art.

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

Chung Kwok Chow
Moy Yat
Lee Moy Shan
Pan Nam WC (5 Tigers School NYC)
Duncan Leung
Alan Lee
Alan Lamb
Henry Leung
William Cheung

[anerlich]

My first instructor taught a mixture of WC, CLF and Northern Sil Lum, and bits and pieces of other things he picked up along the way. He was a Nidan in Goju Ryu Karate and a Shodan in JJJ before he took up TCMA, so he was pretty knowedgable for a Gwailo in the 60's/70's.

He instilled in me the attitude that the lineage, style or system are far less important than the instructor and your ability to relate to him. "Find an instructor that suits you" was his advice. Also, that it's foolish to remain in a stylistic black hole without at least considering what's outside. He cultivated friendships and joint training with other local instructors of all styles of MA for his students and himself.

I had to stop training with him due to employment and geographical reasons.

When I find something I generally stick with it. Sometimes way past the point where I should have left, with a Xingyi/Bagua instructor I spend five years with and a couple of jobs I had.

I've been where I am now coming up to 22 years. I enrolled at another BJJ school as well as training BJJ under my WC instructor because IMO the new school's instructor is the best in my city and state, and my personal goals required me to seek more tuition than I could get at the WC academy.

[ntc]

Anerlich... thanks for posting. I think it is really cool that you continued to pursue WC along with BJJ, and also looked into Xing Yi to broaden your skills and experience. It shows the quality of student that you are, and especially your will and perserverance in not letting obstacles like money or geographical options bog you down. You are a good example to a lot of folks out there.

[k gledhill]

Heres one for you Kevin

You said this on a post when i asked you about your previous lineage...

"V Kan .
The system was taught without the elbow development and why.
wristing sticky hands Chi Sao. No jum sao ....using tan as a block leaving the line.
And more....once I had certain elements from PB I could see the reasons for confusion and plain gaps in a lot of others too.
Not secrets or marketing. "


Was there anything in the VK system you preferred to the PB system?

No I am very happy with the level of information I am getting now.

[wkmark]

"Originally Posted by Vajramusti

Very wise words Joy, but you previously said...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vajramusti
Hi Glenn- just answering your question- not selling or recruiting

As if others here are? A 'silent dig' at the PB boys I wonder??

Many of us here that try to exchange openly with the forum are not 'selling' or 'recriuiting' too and you might want to remember that
"

--> I don't think Joy meant that; he doesn't strike me as that type of person. I believe all he was trying to do was to add a disclaimer that he was not trying to promote or sell the Augustine Fong lineage with his positive remarks.

Regarding myself, I have been with Sifu Ho Kam Ming since the early 70s in Macao. Throughout the course of time I've had the chance to visit with a number of different Ip Man lineages, including personal acquaintances with WSL, LT, Kenneth Chong, Stephen Chan, Chow Tze Chuen, Francis Fong, and quite a few others themselves. I have to admit, though, I have little to no experience with WC outside the Ip Man line and so cannot comment on them. In addition, I have had the opportunity to do exchanges and research with other styles such as Long Fist, Bak Mei (White Eyebrow), Yau Gong Moon, CLF, Hung Gar, Mok Gar, Southern Dragon, Nan Chuan, as well as the Korean and Japanese styles Tae Kwon Do, Goju Ryu, Karate, and Aikido. And I found that the deeper I dove into kung fu, the more I really appreciated having Sifu Ho Kam Ming as my teacher, and how deeply I really loved WC. He was very meticulous in explaining things to us, made us explore and question what we were doing to make sure we understood and not just do, constantly challenged us, and was adamant about having good, solid foundations as a pre-cursore to the more advanced aspects of WC. If you did not have solid foundation, you were not moved on, and yes, you could leave the school then if you were frustrated. He placed a lot of emphasis on developing reaction skills through close-range sensitivity via Chi Sao, and I have to say that I have not seen too many schools that do Chi Sao the way HKM lineage does it. He was very clear when it came to training and which aspect were a part of building structure, developing WC skills, or getting ready for combats and tournaments. We were all pretty much like a family and we all treated him like a fatherly figure. I have a lot of wonderful memories from that.

I feel very fortunate to have come across HKM at the beginning of my kung fu journey, then having him guide me along the way, and now cherish the opportunity to pass on what I learned to my own students. I have also had the opportunity to train a Golden Glove boxer, Muay Thai fighters, a Navy Seal, law enforcement officers, and fighters from other disciplines, and loved seeing how they were able to apply their newly-acquired WC close-range fighting skills to their style, and how they made themselves much more effecient/effective fighters as a result.

And, just as Joy said, I am not trying to market or sell Ho Kam Ming... just relating back to the title of the thread on why I liked my lineage.

The HKM lineage is a very well known and respected lineage amongst the Yip Man VT line in Hong Kong. I have personally met Sifu Lui Ming Fai and had friends who went up to train at his class in Macau a couple years ago. They train exceptional fighters back in the days in Macau. I have nothing but great respect for that lineage. =)

[wkmark]

Hi all

So, needless to say, theres been a bit of inter-lineage squabbling lately (thanks KG & GH, all good fun) but im interested in how many have changed lineage, why they did it, and if its been of benefit to them. And if anyone has regretted the change also.

Id also be interested in hearing from the guys that have stuck with one and are happy to stay where they are.

Having come from good exposure to 2 lineages (TST & a mainland style), im open minded to the different approaches.

Anyway.... fire away

GlennR

I Personally have stuck with the WSL lineage for years. Just wasn't really in my personality to change due to that fact that once he is my Sifu.. he will always be my sifu mentality. (besides, sifu being a family friend of my parents, it would not have been good to go learn VT from someone else. HAHA) Nevertheless... I have seen students from other lineage and have been able to do some exchanges with them. All in all.. different people do VT for different reasons. We don't convert or sell to anyone... If you like what you are doing.. then keep doing it. (Just be realistic about what you are trying to achieve) I enjoy the WSL lineage and I have no plans ever to move especially since I am helping to teach now.

We do stuff our way and if you ask we will gladly explain, then you can determine which path you wish to continue to follow.

There is MORE than one way to do VT. Each to their own. =)

[Vajramusti]

I Personally have stuck with the WSL lineage for years. Just wasn't really in my personality to change due to that fact that once he is my Sifu.. he will always be my sifu mentality. (besides, sifu being a family friend of my parents, it would not have been good to go learn VT from someone else. HAHA) Nevertheless... I have seen students from other lineage and have been able to do some exchanges with them. All in all.. different people do VT for different reasons. We don't convert or sell to anyone... If you like what you are doing.. then keep doing it. (Just be realistic about what you are trying to achieve) I enjoy the WSL lineage and I have no plans ever to move especially since I am helping to teach now.

We do stuff our way and if you ask we will gladly explain, then you can determine which path you wish to continue to follow.

There is MORE than one way to do VT. Each to their own. =)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True on more than one way. And good reasoning for sticking with your lineage

joy

[anerlich]

Anerlich... thanks for posting. I think it is really cool that you continued to pursue WC along with BJJ, and also looked into Xing Yi to broaden your skills and experience. It shows the quality of student that you are, and especially your will and perserverance in not letting obstacles like money or geographical options bog you down. You are a good example to a lot of folks out there.

You, sir, are a gentleman. Thank you very much.

[GlennR]

My first instructor taught a mixture of WC, CLF and Northern Sil Lum, and bits and pieces of other things he picked up along the way. He was a Nidan in Goju Ryu Karate and a Shodan in JJJ before he took up TCMA, so he was pretty knowedgable for a Gwailo in the 60's/70's.

He instilled in me the attitude that the lineage, style or system are far less important than the instructor and your ability to relate to him. "Find an instructor that suits you" was his advice. Also, that it's foolish to remain in a stylistic black hole without at least considering what's outside. He cultivated friendships and joint training with other local instructors of all styles of MA for his students and himself.

I had to stop training with him due to employment and geographical reasons.

When I find something I generally stick with it. Sometimes way past the point where I should have left, with a Xingyi/Bagua instructor I spend five years with and a couple of jobs I had.

I've been where I am now coming up to 22 years. I enrolled at another BJJ school as well as training BJJ under my WC instructor because IMO the new school's instructor is the best in my city and state, and my personal goals required me to seek more tuition than I could get at the WC academy.

Yeh, nice one Andrew
Where do you do your BJJ? Im sort of tossing the idea up at starting it
GlennR

[GlennR]

He instilled in me the attitude that the lineage, style or system are far less important than the instructor and your ability to relate to him. "Find an instructor that suits you" was his advice. Also, that it's foolish to remain in a stylistic black hole without at least considering what's outside. He cultivated friendships and joint training with other local instructors of all styles of MA for his students and himself.




And id say thats my attitude now after my years of training, meeting other people, testing my skills and just getting out there.

Pride in lineage is fine but theres 2 points i now adhere to.
- if your getting no better or not learning anymore where you are..... leave, it will only be a positive. If not to another lineage, another style.

- even if you are 100% happy where you are, continuing to learn and seeing it as long term.... still "get out there", meet your local people from other gyms, have some cross training sessions, put on some gloves and spar a boxer... whatever

All of these things are positive and id think that any of our greats, Yip Man, WSL, Sum Nung etc would all think the same thing

My two bobs worth ;)

GlennR

[YouKnowWho]

A father told his son that an old man who lived few blocks away had a special move but won't teach anybody outside of his own family. The young boy went to that old man's house, kicked on his door, cursed on his whole family included his 8 generation ancestor. The old man ran outside, extreamly mad, and beated that young boy up badly by his special move. The boy ran like hell, turned his head, and said, "Thank you for showing me your move."

You don't have to change your lineage in order to learn something new.

[GlennR]

A father told his son that an old man few blocka away had some special skill but won't teach anybody outside of his own family. The young boy went to that old man's house, kicked on his door, cursed on his whole family included his 8 generation ancestor. The old man came outside. extreamly mad, and beated that young boy up badly. The boy ran like hell, turned his head, and said, "Thank you for shown me your favor move."

You don't have to change your lineage in order to learn something new.



Hahah.... good little story

[anerlich]

Yeh, nice one Andrew
Where do you do your BJJ? Im sort of tossing the idea up at starting it
GlennR


I train at Lange's MMA, in Manly, part of the Machado organisation. Link there is part of my .sig

There are plenty of good BJJ schools around Sydney. Whereabouts are you?

[GlennR]

I train at Lange's MMA, in Manly, part of the Machado organisation. Link there is part of my .sig

There are plenty of good BJJ schools around Sydney. Whereabouts are you?

Im in newtown... any suggestions ??

[anerlich]

A few guys I used to train with at Rick Spain's go to Gracie Oceania at Marrickville. They speak highly of it, as do their skills.

[GlennR]

A few guys I used to train with at Rick Spain's go to Gracie Oceania at Marrickville. They speak highly of it, as do their skills.


Cool, i was thinking of checking them out

Thanks again

[Phil Redmond]

Hi all

So, needless to say, theres been a bit of inter-lineage squabbling lately (thanks KG & GH, all good fun) but im interested in how many have changed lineage, why they did it, and if its been of benefit to them. And if anyone has regretted the change also. . . . . .

GlennR
I was into fighting when I was younger. I didn't care about a Sifu's name, or lineage. Back in the day Kung fu people had a rep for having pretty forms but not being able to fight. I was about to give up on Wing Chun until I met Duncan Leung. His guys competed using Wing Chun. Duncan always spoke highly of William Cheung as a fighter. So after Duncan left for Virginia I found out the William Cheung was doing a seminar in 1983 in L.A. I went and liked what i saw. My fighting got better so I stuck with him. Here's a pic of some of Duncan's fighters after a fight at Madison Square Garden.
You can all laugh a my 70's Afro if you like. :eek:

[russellsherry]

hi all when i first started in it was at a school which olny taught , up till chum kill always excuse made for not teaching dummy and bill jee , the sifu not knowing them was the real reason for not teaching . so i left in 89 went walkabout and found sifu williams thank god for inside kung fu giveing me ideas what to look for in real wing chun . s chan was unreal with kicks as wel and meeting guro roland dantes was god sent

regards russellsherry

[wingchunIan]

I'm firmly of the belief that its good to have an open mind and exchange ideas but I have never changed lineage and almost certainly never will as my seniors, my sifu and my si gung continue to humble me with skill levels that I can only dream of. I may never be the very best in the world but if I can be even half as good as they are I will be a very happy man.

[GlennR]

I'm firmly of the belief that its good to have an open mind and exchange ideas but I have never changed lineage and almost certainly never will as my seniors, my sifu and my si gung continue to humble me with skill levels that I can only dream of. I may never be the very best in the world but if I can be even half as good as they are I will be a very happy man.

Honorable ian.... but in the long term its all about whats best fo you

After all, it appears Yip Man learnt of more that one

[wingchunIan]

got nothing against having multiple sources of info, my point was really more that there is still so much for me to learn within my current lineage and whilst i still have access to such an abundance of knowledge, and am still improving there is no need for me to look elsewhere. Still got full respect for others that have followed a different route though.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1100495]Honorable ian.... but in the long term its all about whats best fo you

After all, it appears Yip Man learnt of more that one

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is true but per the tradition he followed he listed his first teacher as his sifu. Then he learned from a sihing and later from a kung fu "uncle".

joy chaudhuri

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1100495]Honorable ian.... but in the long term its all about whats best fo you

After all, it appears Yip Man learnt of more that one

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is true but per the tradition he followed he listed his first teacher as his sifu. Then he learned from a sihing and later from a kung fu "uncle".

joy chaudhuri

Tradition may have listed one thing.
But reality, as you say, is a different thing.

I cant help but think that all the greats have learnt of multiple teachers yet so may people frown on this.

Yips legacy is from more than one teacher. Persoanally, i think we could all learn something from that

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1100515][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1100510]

Tradition may have listed one thing.
But reality, as you say, is a different thing.

I cant help but think that all the greats have learnt of multiple teachers yet so may people frown on this.

Yips legacy is from more than one teacher. Persoanally, i think we could all learn something from that
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly you missed part of my point. perhaps our values could be also somehwhat different. That's ok.Sure we can learn from different people- Ip Man did and said so. But when listing a sifu- the old way was you list one sifu- your original one in a style.
But one of the pluses of the old way that is often lost is that you were thankful to the teachers along the way., i,e you thank those who were upstream before you.

joy chaudhuri

[GlennR]

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly you missed part of my point. perhaps our values could be also somehwhat different. That's ok.Sure we can learn from different people- Ip Man did and said so. But when listing a sifu- the old way was you list one sifu- your original one in a style.
But one of the pluses of the old way that is often lost is that you were thankful to the teachers along the way., i,e you thank those who were upstream before you.

joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]


No, i got your point.

But if you learnt of one guy..... for say 8 years.... and another for 8 are you saying that if you drew a lineage chart you'd not put down your second teacher?

glennR

[Vajramusti]

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly you missed part of my point. perhaps our values could be also somehwhat different. That's ok.Sure we can learn from different people- Ip Man did and said so. But when listing a sifu- the old way was you list one sifu- your original one in a style.
But one of the pluses of the old way that is often lost is that you were thankful to the teachers along the way., i,e you thank those who were upstream before you.

joy chaudhuri


No, i got your point.

But if you learnt of one guy..... for say 8 years.... and another for 8 are you saying that if you drew a lineage chart you'd not put down your second teacher?

glennR[
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the the traditional way that would be correct. You can learn from many but traditionally you would have one sifu in your style. Even when you learn from your sigung later your sifu is your sifu. But people don't always follow that these days so the older pre Mao Chinese
meaning of lineage is replaced often by name dropping.
Often-A few seminars . long distance learning and DVDs-presto- you have sifus running all over the place.
OTOH- you know what you know-it shows....

joy chaudhuri

[GlennR]

In the the traditional way that would be correct. You can learn from many but traditionally you would have one sifu in your style. Even when you learn from your sigung later your sifu is your sifu. But people don't always follow that these days so the older pre Mao Chinese
meaning of lineage is replaced often by name dropping.
Often-A few seminars . long distance learning and DVDs-presto- you have sifus running all over the place.
OTOH- you know what you know-it shows....

joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]


Thanks for your thoughts Joy

[bennyvt]

sort of my story. Bill will always be my teacher. but I have been lucky to also be able to learn off Barry's other top guys and Barry himself. Have learnt stuff of other guy from Australia, HK, china but Bill will always be my teacher.

[LoneTiger108]

Sure we can learn from different people- Ip Man did and said so. But when listing a sifu- the old way was you list one sifu- your original one in a style.
But one of the pluses of the old way that is often lost is that you were thankful to the teachers along the way., i,e you thank those who were upstream before you.

This is essential info Joy, especially considering my own Sigung Lee Shing. He felt he 'had to' disregard his previous teachers in WCK to learn from Ip Man and from his first day he took Ip Man as his Sifu and Ip Man in turn took him as a student. Anything previous was simply wiped from the history books!

Today, much time is spent researching my Sigungs previous teachers but with all respects that is not neccessary. He was Ip Mans student, and that should be enough imho. I know that some, including me, promote his other learning as it's quite obvious in the present generations that we hold other mainland flavour stuffs, but Ip Mans influence should not be overlooked.

And I wouldn't say Lee Shing would have considered what he had done as a 'Lineage Change' either to be honest, because back then Wing Chun was all one family! One lineage. ;)

Maybe we could learn more from the old days than we care to admit.

[GlennR]

This is essential info Joy, especially considering my own Sigung Lee Shing. He 'had to' disregard his previous teachers in WCK to learn from Ip Man and from his first day he took Ip Man as his Sifu and Ip Man in turn took him as a student. Anything previous was simply wiped from the history books!

Today, much time is spent researching my Sigungs previous teachers but with all respects that is not neccessary. He was Ip Mans student, and that should be enough imho. I know that some, including me, promote his other learning as it's quite obvious in the present generations that we hold other mainland flavour stuffs, but Ip Mans influence should not be overlooked.

And I wouldn't say Lee Shing would have considered what he had done as a 'Lineage Change' either to be honest, because back then Wing Chun was all one family! One lineage. ;)

Maybe we could learn more from the old days than we care to admit.

Im curious Spencer, if "Anything previous was simply wiped from the history books!" and you adhere to this , why are you researching what Lee Shing did earlier?
Arent you contradicting the very thing youre trying to prove??

Personally, theres a hint of ethical superiority that creeps into the "one teacher" guys which i dont get..... we're not in 1930's China now.

So ill ask you the question i asked Joy. Ive done 8 years mainland style (under one teacher) and more again with a TST teacher.... if i put up a lineage chart for a prospective student should i leave one out??

Glennr

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1101126]
Personally, theres a hint of ethical superiority that creeps into the "one teacher" guys which i dont get..... we're not in 1930's China now.

So ill ask you the question i asked Joy. Ive done 8 years mainland style (under one teacher) and more again with a TST teacher.... if i put up a lineage chart for a prospective student should i leave one out??
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No claim to superiority on my part Glenn. I am not peddling or advertising here...just chit chatting.The fact is that I have visited other schools and teachers and see no reason for sifu hopping. I am happy with the path that I have taken...Yuanfen and good fortune that I was living in Tucson in the 70s. If I was living somewhere else- there is a very good chance that I would be doing something else besides wing chun.

Glenn- I would not presume any right to tell you what you should tell your students.
But the fact is that the meaning of "lineage" has changed considerably over time.((Further-wing chun is NOT a community in any disciplined sense of the word and without much quality control)

Truth in labeling is always in season- helps honest people understand the background of a teacher... the equivalent of a contemporary academic vita perhaps.In major universities in the USA..inquiring students can look up the vita of their teachers if they want to. And fudging on a vita is a major no no.

If I were a wing chun student I would try to find out at least how long a potential teacher has studied and with whom and with what regularity. My take anyway....

joy chaudhuri

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1101126]
Personally, theres a hint of ethical superiority that creeps into the "one teacher" guys which i dont get..... we're not in 1930's China now.

So ill ask you the question i asked Joy. Ive done 8 years mainland style (under one teacher) and more again with a TST teacher.... if i put up a lineage chart for a prospective student should i leave one out??
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No claim to superiority on my part Glenn. I am not peddling or advertising here...just chit chatting.The fact is that I have visited other schools and teachers and see no reason for sifu hopping. I am happy with the path that I have taken...Yuanfen and good fortune that I was living in Tucson in the 70s. If I was living somewhere else- there is a very good chance that I would be doing something else besides wing chun.

Glenn- I would not presume any right to tell you what you should tell your students.
But the fact is that the meaning of "lineage" has changed considerably over time.((Further-wing chun is NOT a community in any disciplined sense of the word and without much quality control)

Truth in labeling is always in season- helps honest people understand the background of a teacher... the equivalent of a contemporary academic vita perhaps.In major universities in the USA..inquiring students can look up the vita of their teachers if they want to. And fudging on a vita is a major no no.

If I were a wing chun student I would try to find out at least how long a potential teacher has studied and with whom and with what regularity. My take anyway....

joy chaudhuri


Thanks Joy
I guess thats what im about... Truth in Labelling.
If you've studied say 20 years in total, yet only mention your first teacher (or last) isnt it being dishonest? Like it or not you have to acknowldege any major influences in your own learning

I mean, after all, YM himself claims two teachers... his 1st and then his second.
And when you llook at it, he actually gives LB the most cudos if the story is true

GlennR

[anerlich]

The virtues of loyalty are not to be underestimated. I've been with my current WC instructor for over 20 years, and I'm still in occasional contact and on good terms with my first ever teacher from 1977. He's even a friend on Facebook :p

however, I view with distaste the notion that to take up with one instructor you have to disavow all previous. Why does it have to be either/or and not both/and? AS Glenn alluded, this isn't a period drama.

No one person is the fount of all wisdom. Sane instructors realise this and encourage the student to become a proactive, initiative-using seeker of knowledge and skill, rather than a passive disciple working toward a "transmission" drip fed at the instructor's discretion. The oft-heralded goal of the student surpassing the teacher ain't going to happen under such arrangements.

Yip Man might have been a great WC exponent. Some of his outcomes as a teacher and manager of students IMO would be graded a B- at best, and that's probably being kind.


Maybe we could learn more from the old days than we care to admit.

Perhaps, but as much about what to avoid as about what to do IMO.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1101153][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1101134]


Thanks Joy
I guess thats what im about... Truth in Labelling.
If you've studied say 20 years in total, yet only mention your first teacher (or last) isnt it being dishonest? Like it or not you have to acknowldege any major influences in your own learning

I mean, after all, YM himself claims two teachers... his 1st and then his second.
And when you llook at it, he actually gives LB the most cudos if the story is true
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn- I may be repeating myself. I see no problem in people listing who they learned from and I see no problem in someone learning from different teachers.But there are possible differences in value systems and cultures involved. Ip Man clearly told his top students and his sons that he first learned wing chun from Chan Wah Shun, then his sifu's senior students and later from Leung Bik. Ip Man followed correctly the meaning of "sifu" in the martial culture of his time and listed his first teacher as his sifu. No dishonesty in that.
Re difference in values.. my sifu remains my sifu though I have learned things from others- some from other styles as well. That is based on my sense of values and it so happens also that what I have learned from my sifu more than holds it's own compared to other exposures. The older term sifu is different from the more modern notion of a "coach". I use the term sifu but understand when others use therm coach.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

Im curious Spencer, if "Anything previous was simply wiped from the history books!" and you adhere to this , why are you researching what Lee Shing did earlier?
Arent you contradicting the very thing youre trying to prove??

Firstly, I'm not trying to prove anything about my Sigung. I just like to research and learn as much as I can about the man who brought Wing Chun to England :D

He was very loyal to Ip Man until his passing, and it was only much later that Lee Shings eldest students started to ask more questions about his personal Wing Chun journey. Because of this 'alliance' with Ip Man, the curriculums promoted were actually representative of "Wing Chun Pye" as a whole and not just a singular family. Lee Shing wasn't teaching 'Ip Man Wing Chun' because that didn't even exist at that time. He was simply teaching Wing Chun!

Later, once Ip Chun had taken over the HK operations the family started to promote Ip Man WCK and Lee Shings connection and promotions were left alone. It is still like this today.

How you promote your own family tree is up to you and who you want to credit/discredit is your choice too because, like you say, this isn't 1930's China. But FWIW my own Sifu will continue to be my only Sifu, even though I am researching and learning from others all the time ;) But what I teach isn't 'his' WCK or 'Lee Shings' or 'Ip Mans'. Its not even mine!!

It's simply Wing Chun :D

[Eric_H]

Doesn't who you bai si to also make a difference?

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1101153][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1101134]


Thanks Joy
I guess thats what im about... Truth in Labelling.
If you've studied say 20 years in total, yet only mention your first teacher (or last) isnt it being dishonest? Like it or not you have to acknowldege any major influences in your own learning

I mean, after all, YM himself claims two teachers... his 1st and then his second.
And when you llook at it, he actually gives LB the most cudos if the story is true
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn- I may be repeating myself. I see no problem in people listing who they learned from and I see no problem in someone learning from different teachers.But there are possible differences in value systems and cultures involved. Ip Man clearly told his top students and his sons that he first learned wing chun from Chan Wah Shun, then his sifu's senior students and later from Leung Bik. Ip Man followed correctly the meaning of "sifu" in the martial culture of his time and listed his first teacher as his sifu. No dishonesty in that.
Re difference in values.. my sifu remains my sifu though I have learned things from others- some from other styles as well. That is based on my sense of values and it so happens also that what I have learned from my sifu more than holds it's own compared to other exposures. The older term sifu is different from the more modern notion of a "coach". I use the term sifu but understand when others use therm coach.

joy chaudhuri

Yes, i understand the older notion of Sifu Joy, in fact i have no argument/problem/lack of understanding with it.

But see, from my angle i dont think YM was that hung up on it.
The fact that he openly tells students about the other people he learnt from, and indeed says he learnt a "better" version of Bik, throws the whole 1st Sifu thing out the window.
What he's saying is.... i learnt of one guy but later on found one that showed me more.

Personally, i think YM would have liked the term "Coach" ;)

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1101304][QUOTE=GlennR;1101153]

Yes, i understand the older notion of Sifu Joy, in fact i have no argument/problem/lack of understanding with it.


Personally, i think YM would have liked the term "Coach" ;)
_______________________________________________
I don't think so but then -I can't ask him!!

Joy Chaudhuri

[GlennR]

Yep.... all conjecture ;)

So you see Yip as the more tradiotional type Joy?
Whats your take on him?

GlennR

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1101592]Yep.... all conjecture ;)

So you see Yip as the more tradiotional type Joy?
Whats your take on him?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One foot very much in the old world.Even in his social pictures he wears the traditional clothing
while his students don't.An old time sifu who was brief and selective in providing information.Prone to some vices that were not uncommon among people of leisure in Fatshan. WSL had a couple of them too. Ip man had
a couple of additional ones. Polite in a Confucian way. Saddened by the behavior of some of his students when he got older. A Chinese nationalist to the core. A fighter for sure who didn't brag about his fights. Didn't have to.Probably killed a man when he was a law enforcer just before leaving the PRC. Even as a school boy beat up an Indian policeman (rightly so)in HK who was bullyinga Chinese boy. Somehat of a "distant" father. A survivor. Loyal to friends.A sense of chivalry--Victor Kan mentioned him hitting a man who was bullying a female on the street. Proud of his community. Ip Ching decribes a challenge match with a northern stylist in Fatshan. A Chinese girl I knew tells the story of Ip man going toa wealthy student's(her friend's father) house to teach him in the courtyard. Several visitors who knew karate challenged him. He smiled. They came kicking at him and he sent them flying.
Quick but wry sense of humor... once when asked whether he did any martial art- came the smile and the answer "A little HsingI".
In spite of some weaknesses--- an amazing man- a real sifu.
Probably would not give me the time of the day.
I have more impressions of him- but that's enough.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1101592]Yep.... all conjecture ;)

So you see Yip as the more tradiotional type Joy?
Whats your take on him?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One foot very much in the old world.Even in his social pictures he wears the traditional clothing
while his students don't.An old time sifu who was brief and selective in providing information.Prone to some vices that were not uncommon among people of leisure in Fatshan. WSL had a couple of them too. Ip man had
a couple of additional ones. Polite in a Confucian way. Saddened by the behavior of some of his students when he got older. A Chinese nationalist to the core. A fighter for sure who didn't brag about his fights. Didn't have to.Probably killed a man when he was a law enforcer just before leaving the PRC. Even as a school boy beat up an Indian policeman (rightly so)in HK who was bullyinga Chinese boy. Somehat of a "distant" father. A survivor. Loyal to friends.A sense of chivalry--Victor Kan mentioned him hitting a man who was bullying a female on the street. Proud of his community. Ip Ching decribes a challenge match with a northern stylist in Fatshan. A Chinese girl I knew tells the story of Ip man going toa wealthy student's(her friend's father) house to teach him in the courtyard. Several visitors who knew karate challenged him. He smiled. They came kicking at him and he sent them flying.
Quick but wry sense of humor... once when asked whether he did any martial art- came the smile and the answer "A little HsingI".
In spite of some weaknesses--- an amazing man- a real sifu.
Probably would not give me the time of the day.
I have more impressions of him- but that's enough.

joy chaudhuri


I heard similar...

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1101592]Yep.... all conjecture ;)

So you see Yip as the more tradiotional type Joy?
Whats your take on him?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One foot very much in the old world.Even in his social pictures he wears the traditional clothing
while his students don't.An old time sifu who was brief and selective in providing information.Prone to some vices that were not uncommon among people of leisure in Fatshan. WSL had a couple of them too. Ip man had
a couple of additional ones. Polite in a Confucian way. Saddened by the behavior of some of his students when he got older. A Chinese nationalist to the core. A fighter for sure who didn't brag about his fights. Didn't have to.Probably killed a man when he was a law enforcer just before leaving the PRC. Even as a school boy beat up an Indian policeman (rightly so)in HK who was bullyinga Chinese boy. Somehat of a "distant" father. A survivor. Loyal to friends.A sense of chivalry--Victor Kan mentioned him hitting a man who was bullying a female on the street. Proud of his community. Ip Ching decribes a challenge match with a northern stylist in Fatshan. A Chinese girl I knew tells the story of Ip man going toa wealthy student's(her friend's father) house to teach him in the courtyard. Several visitors who knew karate challenged him. He smiled. They came kicking at him and he sent them flying.
Quick but wry sense of humor... once when asked whether he did any martial art- came the smile and the answer "A little HsingI".
In spite of some weaknesses--- an amazing man- a real sifu.
Probably would not give me the time of the day.
I have more impressions of him- but that's enough.

joy chaudhuri

Thanks Joy............. appreciate the feed back

And im sure he'd give you the time of day ;)

[LoneTiger108]

The fact that he openly tells students about the other people he learnt from, and indeed says he learnt a "better" version of Bik, throws the whole 1st Sifu thing out the window.
What he's saying is.... i learnt of one guy but later on found one that showed me more.

Totally agreed.

My point was that I also consider Lee Shing had a very similar experience with his students; being Ip Mans representative but still passing on stories of his earlier teachings to his closest students.


Personally, i think YM would have liked the term "Coach" ;)

He did have the term I would imagine! You don't just get to the position he had without knowing about the older ways.

I should try and dig out some of my old notes as I was taught at least 10 different terms mapping the progression from student to teacher ;)

[Eric_H]

For the matter of lineage change –

I started doing Moy Yat/Ip Man Wing Chun in 2002, achieved a “black belt” in 2004 (Was one of those 20+ hour a week dojo rats) and felt pretty good about it at the time, but always knew it was lacking. Had done a Jujitsu/Aikido mix style growing up and always felt WC was weak once I clinched/grabbed on to somebody. Similarly, sparring with karate and kickboxing folks led me to find some holes in the long range game too. (Primary being that IMO YM WC doesn’t really have one). Got involved in some program at the same school (which I guess amounts to a lineage change?) that was mostly a mix of Krav Maga, Chi Sim and Taekwondo, but it didn’t fly well once I tested it out against actual kung fu guys.

Fed up with school politics, jumped over to learning Yin Style Bagua for a while which was one of the best decisions I ever made. My coach, Ed Guerra, was one of the best coaches I’ve had and the style had a lot to it.

In 2005 I met my current Sifu, Grandmaster Garrett Gee and really got to see real Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. Once I saw it, I knew it was what I wanted and joined their long distance instructor program. I felt like the WC I had learned before was a candle before the sun in comparison. Decided to Bai Si to Hung Fa Yi in 2008, been a heck of a ride since then, but I wouldn’t trade it for anything.

Only regrets I have are that I didn’t find Hung Fa Yi sooner and having had to learn long distance for a lot of my training.

[GlennR]

For the matter of lineage change –

I started doing Moy Yat/Ip Man Wing Chun in 2002, achieved a “black belt” in 2004 (Was one of those 20+ hour a week dojo rats) and felt pretty good about it at the time, but always knew it was lacking. Had done a Jujitsu/Aikido mix style growing up and always felt WC was weak once I clinched/grabbed on to somebody. Similarly, sparring with karate and kickboxing folks led me to find some holes in the long range game too. (Primary being that IMO YM WC doesn’t really have one). Got involved in some program at the same school (which I guess amounts to a lineage change?) that was mostly a mix of Krav Maga, Chi Sim and Taekwondo, but it didn’t fly well once I tested it out against actual kung fu guys.

Fed up with school politics, jumped over to learning Yin Style Bagua for a while which was one of the best decisions I ever made. My coach, Ed Guerra, was one of the best coaches I’ve had and the style had a lot to it.

In 2005 I met my current Sifu, Grandmaster Garrett Gee and really got to see real Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. Once I saw it, I knew it was what I wanted and joined their long distance instructor program. I felt like the WC I had learned before was a candle before the sun in comparison. Decided to Bai Si to Hung Fa Yi in 2008, been a heck of a ride since then, but I wouldn’t trade it for anything.

Only regrets I have are that I didn’t find Hung Fa Yi sooner and having had to learn long distance for a lot of my training.

Hey eric
Thanks.
Is there anything about your original WC training/style that you preffered?
GlennR

[Eric_H]

Hey eric
Thanks.
Is there anything about your original WC training/style that you preffered?
GlennR

Sad to say it, but no. There's not a thing I learned in YM WC that Hung Fa Yi hasn't had a better answer for so far.

[LoneTiger108]

Sad to say it, but no. There's not a thing I learned in YM WC that Hung Fa Yi hasn't had a better answer for so far.

Wow. Says quite a lot about your previous Sifus.

It is unfortunate that you didn't find anything in your earlier training, but its cool that you like the HFY approach, although I do not know their ways. More Shaolin/Wudang (Jee Shim) based aren't they? Sort of explains the vast difference imo but nothing I haven't seen in the Wing Chun I learnt to be fair

[Savi]

Wow. Says quite a lot about your previous Sifus.

It is unfortunate that you didn't find anything in your earlier training, but its cool that you like the HFY approach, although I do not know their ways. More Shaolin/Wudang (Jee Shim) based aren't they? Sort of explains the vast difference imo but nothing I haven't seen in the Wing Chun I learnt to be fairSifu Richard Loewenhagen, who is Eric's and my Sifu in the Moy Yat lineage (and the HFY lineage), opened our eyes to HFYWCK. He taught us HFYWCK up until his retirement in 2007 where our Grandmaster Gee took over our direct training.

From what I have seen and experienced in HFYWCK and Chi Sim Kung Fu, I have to say the similarities are VERY few. HFYWCK's structure concept is not used in Chi Sim (and vice versa). Mechanically, they are practically unrelated. Conceptually, there are a handful of things shared on a surface level. Many southern MA's have things in common.

[CFT]

From what I have seen and experienced in HFYWCK and Chi Sim Kung Fu, I have to say the similarities are VERY few. HFYWCK's structure concept is not used in Chi Sim (and vice versa). Mechanically, they are practically unrelated. Conceptually, there are a handful of things shared on a surface level. Many southern MA's have things in common.Yet the impression from 'Inside Kung Fu' was pretty much the opposite though? It seemed to draw may parallels between the 2 systems. It was almost HFY/CS WCK vs. Yip Man WCK.

[Savi]

Yet the impression from 'Inside Kung Fu' was pretty much the opposite though? It seemed to draw may parallels between the 2 systems. It was almost HFY/CS WCK vs. Yip Man WCK.I'm not sure what the general impression is of the book to be honest. I know a section of the Mastering Kung Fu book was dedicated to the Chi Sim family for the history section, and that the shared term of "Tien Yan Dei" between the two families was emphasized.

From the time of the writing of MKF to today my personal experience in HFYWCK has taken me to quite a different place, which is a blessing. My comments still stand regarding my opinion on the respective arts.

[Eric_H]

Wow. Says quite a lot about your previous Sifus.


Actually, I consider it quite the opposite, it says more about the art. Frankly, it didn't have much to do with the teacher, my first coach was a **** good one. (7th degree certified by the VTAA) and even he came over to HFY before personal matters took him away from training.

I enjoyed my time doing YM Wing Chun and do think people can be effective fighters with it, I just also believe that HFY suits me way better and makes a lot more sense.

[shaolin_allan]

was it physical aspects that fit you better with hfy? or mental/spiritual or all?

[GlennR]

Actually, I consider it quite the opposite, it says more about the art. Frankly, it didn't have much to do with the teacher, my first coach was a **** good one. (7th degree certified by the VTAA) and even he came over to HFY before personal matters took him away from training.

I enjoyed my time doing YM Wing Chun and do think people can be effective fighters with it, I just also believe that HFY suits me way better and makes a lot more sense.

Hi Eric
Hypothetical here.
If the old Eric had a fight with the new Eric, how would new close down the old??
I suppose im asking what attributes HFY has given you over YM style?
Regards
GlennR

[Eric_H]

Hi Eric
Hypothetical here.
If the old Eric had a fight with the new Eric, how would new close down the old??
I suppose im asking what attributes HFY has given you over YM style?
Regards
GlennR

Hey Glenn,

Interesting question, I hadn't thought about it in those terms before. For attributes, probably the top 2 are the ability to find someone's center of gravity extremely quickly/with much greater influence, and the ability to apply body leverage/structural power much more consistently and easily.

I can also say that studying HFY has really changed how I approach engagements. When doing YM I found that when sparring I'd end up "trading" with my opponent a lot more than I'd like. With HFY, I find myself throwing less strikes but when I do, the opponent doesn't have a comeback. (Better control) Were I able to fight me from my YM days, I imagine it would be a lot of new me locking down old me's gravity and moving him about.

I do like to check my WC against YM guys in our area whenever the opportunity comes up, and most folks walk away saying that I'm very strong (because I've learned to apply leverage) and they're worn out because I'm often moving them and forcing them to catch their balance. I'm no master by any means, but I know those are some things I do pretty well. :D

[LoneTiger108]

I enjoyed my time doing YM Wing Chun and do think people can be effective fighters with it, I just also believe that HFY suits me way better and makes a lot more sense.

Makes more sense? How so? Are you influenced more by the culture and language now than you was during your YM days? Or have you simply got a better teacher?

I find the HFY/JS stuffs really interesting because they're touching on familiar ground to what I have trained, but the language itself seems far more buddhhist/cha'an than Wing Chun. Maybe closer to the northern Shaolin than the southern Martial arts?

Mind you, I've only seen it once first hand and the guy was more JS than HFY and he explained many reasons 'why' his way was more 'authentic'! I do think we may be on the same page, but we have different writing styles! :D;)

[Eric_H]

Makes more sense? How so? Are you influenced more by the culture and language now than you was during your YM days? Or have you simply got a better teacher?


In terms of curriculum, HFY has a really awesome structural gauge called the Saap Ming Dim - in english we refer to it as the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun formula. It's a surefire way to tell if/when you have structured a technique right. I think it's one of the great strengths of the style.



I find the HFY/JS stuffs really interesting because they're touching on familiar ground to what I have trained, but the language itself seems far more buddhhist/cha'an than Wing Chun. Maybe closer to the northern Shaolin than the southern Martial arts?


Can't speak for JS, I missed GM Hoffman when he came to the US so I've never seen the style firsthand other than some youtube clips. Personally, I'd say HFY is southern because it has the 3 animal shape signature that all siu lam styles share. The shaolin "calling card" as it were. As someone who studies tibetan buddhism, I can see a lot of parallels but I'm not qualified to say what would be ch'an or not.


Mind you, I've only seen it once first hand and the guy was more JS than HFY and he explained many reasons 'why' his way was more 'authentic'! I do think we may be on the same page, but we have different writing styles! :D;)

Hah, to ourselves what we do is always the most authentic, go figure :rolleyes:

[LoneTiger108]

In terms of curriculum, HFY has a really awesome structural gauge called the Saap Ming Dim - in english we refer to it as the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun formula. It's a surefire way to tell if/when you have structured a technique right. I think it's one of the great strengths of the style.

I find this very interesting, as I too learnt something similar that we referred to as 'stages' or 'levels'. 10 were used to assess everything we drilled :)

Why would anyone want to change their lineage when the Wing Chun bowl is so full! I see us as ALL one lineage. That lineage called Wing Chun/Ving Tsun etc ;)

[Eric_H]

I find this very interesting, as I too learnt something similar that we referred to as 'stages' or 'levels'. 10 were used to assess everything we drilled :)

Can you expand on that a little more? Is it like TWC's 5 combat stages or something different?

[Savi]

Why would anyone want to change their lineage when the Wing Chun bowl is so full! I see us as ALL one lineage. That lineage called Wing Chun/Ving Tsun etc ;)In my view, the art is what we all have in common, and in that sense we are all one Wing Chun family. We shouldn't, in my opinion, disregard lineage for art because it's each and every lineage that helps us understand where our art comes from! Maybe we can just consider different Wing Chun lineages as all being related like cousins.

[GlennR]

Hey Glenn,

Interesting question, I hadn't thought about it in those terms before. For attributes, probably the top 2 are the ability to find someone's center of gravity extremely quickly/with much greater influence, and the ability to apply body leverage/structural power much more consistently and easily.

I can also say that studying HFY has really changed how I approach engagements. When doing YM I found that when sparring I'd end up "trading" with my opponent a lot more than I'd like. With HFY, I find myself throwing less strikes but when I do, the opponent doesn't have a comeback. (Better control) Were I able to fight me from my YM days, I imagine it would be a lot of new me locking down old me's gravity and moving him about.

I do like to check my WC against YM guys in our area whenever the opportunity comes up, and most folks walk away saying that I'm very strong (because I've learned to apply leverage) and they're worn out because I'm often moving them and forcing them to catch their balance. I'm no master by any means, but I know those are some things I do pretty well. :D

Thanks for the explanation Eric
And for what i look for in qulaity WC (getting oponents COG & power through structure) sounds like youve found a good choice
Another question for you.
A lot of people draw comparisons bewtween TWC and HFY, and in my opinion TWC tends to fight at a slightly longer range than other WC styles (as i said, in IMO)... your thoughts on this in regards to HFY?
And flank or up the centre?

GlennR

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1104411]Makes more sense? How so? Are you influenced more by the culture and language now than you was during your YM days? Or have you simply got a better teacher?


Maybe its just a better style

[Savi]

Maybe its just a better styleTo each their own findings, but I would never state that as anything more than one's experience and point of view.

[GlennR]

To each their own findings, but I would never state that as anything more than one's experience and point of view.

Sure, and im not actually saying that HFY is the better style

But having said that, surely there are better lineages than others?

[Savi]

Sure, and im not actually saying that HFY is the better style

But having said that, surely there are better lineages than others?I'd chalk that up to differences in value, values, and culture/traditions + what one person prefers to accept.

[GlennR]

I'd chalk that up to differences in value, values, and culture/traditions + what one person prefers to accept.



I guess we all have different things we look at when we are judging the merits of a style.

Its 3 things for me
- Will i be a better fighter
- Will it increase my overall health and fitness
- Will i enjoy it

GlennR

[Eric_H]

Thanks for the explanation Eric
And for what i look for in qulaity WC (getting oponents COG & power through structure) sounds like youve found a good choice
Another question for you.
A lot of people draw comparisons bewtween TWC and HFY, and in my opinion TWC tends to fight at a slightly longer range than other WC styles (as i said, in IMO)... your thoughts on this in regards to HFY?
And flank or up the centre?

GlennR

Glenn,

As a caveat, I've never met a TWC practitioner, so my impression of them is solely based on video and a couple of discussions here on KFO. Though TWC and HFY forms look much more similar than HFY to YM, the operation in application seems to be pretty different. HFY doesn’t use blindside theory like TWC or the 5 stages of combat. (Which I understand are two of their main ideas)

From what I’ve learned so far, HFY’s employment for playing inside/outside is based on what we read off of the engagement and leverage, we don’t have a preference of one over the other.

FWIW, there's a TWC school close to my hometown where I'll be visiting later this year. If they're not closed for the Holiday I'd look forward to meeting up with them and seeing how they work.

[Savi]

I guess we all have different things we look at when we are judging the merits of a style.

Its 3 things for me
- Will i be a better fighter
- Will it increase my overall health and fitness
- Will i enjoy it

GlennRAgreed on those 3 points. In my club I have several points I stress in addition to yours. Here are some of them:

- absolutely no politics
- no social chatter during training
- quality of training over quantity of material
- skill is more important than "getting that sash"
- have the proper view (mentality/attitude/focus) to handle/express/use the art
- keep things fun yet personally challenging in every session
- train to make each other better
- earn everything you learn
- drill it, train it, question it, test it, drill it again

[LoneTiger108]

Can you expand on that a little more? Is it like TWC's 5 combat stages or something different?

I couldn't say because I have no understanding of TWC's 5 combat stages.

All I can share here is that I learnt a transitional program for putting everything we do through it's paces, kind of like a 'diagnostic' test. I have yet to see or hear anything like it, which is why I was intrigued by your own post!

[LoneTiger108]

Maybe we can just consider different Wing Chun lineages as all being related like cousins.

Yes we could, but I tend to consider everyone who learns Wing Chun as brothers from other mothers! :D

Bottom line, you either have the system in place or not, because there isn't 'variations' within the system itself, just individual stylists imho

[Savi]

I couldn't say because I have no understanding of TWC's 5 combat stages.

All I can share here is that I learnt a transitional program for putting everything we do through it's paces, kind of like a 'diagnostic' test. I have yet to see or hear anything like it, which is why I was intrigued by your own post!Interesting choice of words: "diagnostic test". I like that! What I would equate a diagnostic test in HFY is this:

Whole Body Structure and Positional Testing: HFY Sup Ming Dim (spatial reference points check) + HFY WC Formula (conceptual components check), Correct Facing, Range, and Advantageous Leverage Connections

Five Energy Testing: Shape energy, Crash energy, Flow energy, Killing energy, Neutralizing energy

We do these checks all throughout the training process.

[lance]

Hi all

So, needless to say, theres been a bit of inter-lineage squabbling lately (thanks KG & GH, all good fun) but im interested in how many have changed lineage, why they did it, and if its been of benefit to them. And if anyone has regretted the change also.

Id also be interested in hearing from the guys that have stuck with one and are happy to stay where they are.

Having come from good exposure to 2 lineages (TST & a mainland style), im open minded to the different approaches.

Anyway.... fire away

GlennR To me there is no need to change , but if I ever did regret the change , then I ' ll simply go back to the lineages that I myself feel comfortable with .for example WC although Ip Man had alot of students learning under him and sooner or later the students all became senior teachers and became qualified to teach , they went out on their own , some of them modified their WC forms like GM William Cheung his chum kiu is modified but I learn it , as long as I can use it to defend myself with , is good enough for me .

So far I ' m comfortable with my lineage , there are times when I mainly practice on the applications rather the forms itself . Because , you always can modify the WC forms the way you like it , provided that the changes you ' ve done contains the techniques that WC uses .

[EternalSpring]

I've stayed in one lineage (si tai gong moy yat ->sigong moy yee ->my sifu -> me) and I'm very happy with what I'm learning now. Just yesterday my Sisook came back from china after a trip with his school and he was telling me about all the different lineage schools they met up and trained with (from Yip Man lineage schools to those shaolin ving tsun schools to those kulo ving tsun schools).

Overall, they all had their own focuses and preferences but nothing was "number one" or superior to all. When thinking about all the different approaches i was told of (and also ones i've read about or seen on the internet) what I realized was that a person properly trained in Ving Tsun can do all the same techniques or at least similar techniques, but they just dont "specialize" in those things. Or sometimes there may be differences that are huge but the differences have purposes. For example, one school may use the wider "Kay Lo Mah" stance instead of Kim Yeung Mah but each stance has it's uses and advantages. I think each lineage has something great to offer but I dont really look at it as a reason to leave my lineage. I only have one "kung fu father," but I can still learn other things.

It's my own personal opinion, but I it's important to stay loyal to one's lineage. If at any point a person learns everything his/her sifu has to offer, then it's not uncommon for the sifu to help that student learn something new from another sifu.

[EternalSpring]

some of them modified their WC forms like GM William Cheung his chum kiu is modified but I learn it , as long as I can use it to defend myself with , is good enough for me

amen to that. One time my sifu said "Imagine I was just making all this kung fu up and teaching you fake kung fu, would you be mad?"

My instantaneous response was "If this is all stuff you made up then you're a genius because I most certainly can use what you have taught me, and that's what matters most" lol

[lance]

amen to that. One time my sifu said "Imagine I was just making all this kung fu up and teaching you fake kung fu, would you be mad?"

My instantaneous response was "If this is all stuff you made up then you're a genius because I most certainly can use what you have taught me, and that's what matters most" lol

EternalSpring , I like your joke .