Wing Chun Lineage with Chin Na and Throw

[anerlich]

I swear to God that every single word that I have said here are 100% truth.

I don't believe you :p

[Wayfaring]

Point being, even with the requirement to let go of someone if he taps, if the fighters really wanted to, it would be totally possible to break the limb before the guy had a chance to tap. It's just that an arm bar on the ground allows for so much control that you can give the guy a chance to "say uncle". It's even more that way for ankle locks. They are notorious for being able to break a guys leg before the persons even realized how far it had gone. That's why many schools don't allow ankle locks for relative beginners, they tend not to realize when it's time to tap.

Actually it's heel hooks that you're describing. A straight ankle lock has plenty of pain in the initial stages before damage is done to allow for tapping. Not so with heel hooks.



Human nature. Their not that much harder to pull off compared to lying arm bars.

Flying armbars are not a simple thing to pull off, and are relatively easily defended.


Main thing is, you need to go in with a real intent to break the guys arm. There's no chance to control him and effectively warn him to give up or you'll break his arm. If you notice, all 3 examples I posted happened suddenly and without warning. If any of those 3 guys had paused to wait for a tap, the "victim" would have been able to roll out, squirm out or otherwise neutralize it.

and in tournaments, that's exactly what happens.

[anerlich]

So that's one example from a Jujistu comp, one from Judo and one from MMA.


And a big fat zero from the TCMA standing armlock experts among the forum membership.

[Frost]

I've only met a couple of professional fighters here and there. All the one's I met were really nice, down to earth people. They did not fight with malice. They fought within the rules and when you see the occasional guy who does seem to be fighting "mean", like in the Aoki vs. Wisniewski fight, it's actually controversial.

My experience is that the higher you go up the ranks, the more professional the attitudes are. Of course, when steroids enter the picture, people change a bit but most of the top guys are perfect gentleman.

The Hughes/Gracie match is a **** poor example for your argument. Matt Hughes hyperextended it because Royce wouldn't tap. I've actually read some articles saying that Matt Hughes really is a punk but even so, I've seen nothing of him publicly too suggest that if Royce had just tapped, he would not have let him go. Some of the Gracies have a thing about tapping. With the whole family pride on the line and whatnot many of them would rather have a broken arm than a broken record.

Soccer kick a downed opponent in the head? Are you kidding? Since kicking to the head of a downed opponent is generally illegal that would just get the fighter disqualified. Since their goal is to WIN that makes no sense. Take away the TV cameras and when fights end, fighters hug. You actually still get to see that in Sanda, K1 and many other venues. As soon as the fight it over...it's over. Uncontrolled, violent sociopaths generally lack the discipline and social skills to make it to the top of the profession.

Always exceptions but that's the general rule.

In any case, my original point stands untouched. Faxipants made this claim:


That claim has been falsified. We are only arguing about how difficult it is to accomplish. It clearly can, and has, been done on numerous occasions against highly trained professional fight athletes.

Well I have done more than met a few , I have trained with them, spent years around them, watched them compete (in all organisations including the UFC and pride) and been around their camps, and I agree they are mostly really nice guys, who make a living beating people up… you don’t do that unless you are willing to hurt someone do you? do you really think that if standing locks worked that well they wouldn’t use them because of some installed sense of decency, but then they would kick the c^ap out of they opponent, knee them into unconsciousness, mount them and punch them until they go limp and soccer kick them in the head if the rules allow it?

I brought up the soccer kick because Its only illegal in the USA some of our guys have fought in Japan where it is or was legal and guess what they used it, now many guys in the UFC get warning or have points taken off for being too eager to knee a guy in the head when he has more than 2 points of contact with the floor…tell me they are looking after their opponents wellbeing then?


Standing locks have worked a handful of times, despite the fact that the kimura break from a rear body lock is a standard move…why do you think that is?

Royce v Hughes is a great example, as you say it was hyperextended because Royce didn’t tap, which proves my point its up to the opponent to look after himself you go for the lock as fast as possible you don’t go controlled and slow because if your too nice he escapes and you are in trouble, the fact see so few injuries is because people are trained to escape the locks and tap quickly out of self preservation if they cant, its nothing to do with your opponent being nice to you. Does that mean you go out to break something probably not but you go out to finish your opponent within the rules of the fight and his health is his responsibility

Im not fax I never said it cant be done, anything can happen in life even monkeys fall out of trees, BUT I will argue with people who say standing locks work in fights and are high percentage, that’s simply not the case you only really see them successfully used where those Appling them have a numerical advantage (so the two of you can limit his ability to move) I will also argue with people who say they are just as useful as ground submissions but you don’t seem them as much because fighters don’t have the intent to go out and hurt each other…that in my experience is simply wrong

The easiest way to prove this stuff is to go compete and try it, if you break your opponent’s wrist arm leg etc so what it happens all the time in comps it’s a hazard of the game, I can guarantee the other guy will be trying to throw you on your head, and do similar nasty things to you, it doesn’t mean you are both bad men, it means you are competing within the agreed rule set

As for the hug stuff please, respect and winning within the rules are not mutually exclusive MMA fighters hug opponents after kicking them unconscious, the axe murderer in pride used to bow and hug guys after his fight, didn’t stop him stamping on their heads, roger Gracie hugged jacare in the worlds after breaking his arm, no hard feelings its just the rules of the game

[Frost]

Actually it's heel hooks that you're describing. A straight ankle lock has plenty of pain in the initial stages before damage is done to allow for tapping. Not so with heel hooks.


Flying armbars are not a simple thing to pull off, and are relatively easily defended.

and in tournaments, that's exactly what happens.

thank you some common sense for once

[Frost]

If you you tube you can see standing arm bar 101 BJJ shown standing, and more...not just a few clips.
I would agree that sportsmanship rather than ego, accounts for LESS 'intentional' arm injuries than some other ego driven opinions.

no offense but two little things, even BJJ guys agree that standing stuff put out by the graices is silly, i dont know anyone that trains it

its not about ego or sportmanship, its about competing under the rules and winning under the, once you compete you understand that you are responsible for your own safety

[omarthefish]

And a big fat zero from the TCMA standing armlock experts among the forum membership.

No. Actually, YouKnowWho posted an example from his personal experience but that's missing the point. I posted examples from Judo, MMA and Jujustu because it makes a stronger argument. If I post examples from TCMA you could always say that well, that's ok for some CMA schuck but that would never work against XYZ. So I made a point of pulling examples from the experiences of the "opposing side". That's just standard rhetorical technique. In any topic, doesn't have to be MA, you should always base your arguments on evidence that the other side has already accepted otherwise you end up begging the question.

Again, as YouKnowWho has pointed out, the arm breaks I showed in 2 of the 3 clips are standard Shuai Jiao techniques which many Shuai Jiao people train to apply in combat. His own teacher has been successful applying it even against a trained boxer. If I view the argument from Faxipraxy's shoes, or from your shoes perhaps, then it still begs the question: Is anecdotal evidence from a TCMA guy reliable as having actually happened? Maybe the "boxer" was just some semi-trained tomato can. Maybe it was actually just a hobbyest or an inexperienced amateur.

So I have to consider what form of evidence is being held up as the gold standard of evidence for "what works". Since the challenge was placed out there repeatedly to "get in the ring and try that on an MMA guy..." I went and selected examples of people who did exactly that.

Are you now moving the goalposts?

[goju]

Clinches happen in almost every fight. Standing arm locks hardly ever happen.

Point being if they are going to be attempted the best way to do it is from an already attached position rather than the typical catch the punch in mid air or from the unlikely wrist grabs scenarios

[sanjuro_ronin]

In all my years competing in Judo, I don't recall but a couple of times that standing locks worked.
They are indeed very low percentage, which DOESN'T mean they DON'T work, just that the chances are less.
For every standing arm break you will find a dozen on the ground.
I do notice that they do work more against the untrained crowd and I used them a tad while bouncing.
They do NOT work against punches because the strikes come to fast and in multiples ( while you are busy trying to lock the joint, you are getting punched in the face, quite annoying at times I must say).
The work well vs grabs or in clinches and even better after you've pasted the guy a few times and he is almost out on his feet.
It is quite easy to turn any lock in to a "break", you just apply it explosively.

[Frost]

Point being if they are going to be attempted the best way to do it is from an already attached position rather than the typical catch the punch in mid air or from the unlikely wrist grabs scenarios

Yep and in competitions where that attached fighting is allowed how often do you see standing locks attempted or pulled off? I mean they are allowed in the rules, you are in as you say an ideal position to go for them, why do you see so few?

[LoneTiger108]

If I may say, we have progressed from no qinna to the possibility of qinna existing within yongchunquan...

At the end na is just another skill which works from time to time, but it is good to possess when the time calls for it. :)

Well, isn't it funny :confused: That's why I like this place! Just shoot the messenger and discuss later :eek:

And as for this gem, it really made me smile...


Ask any BJJ professor how similar he thinks WC is to BJJ. They will say they are very different.

[Frost]

Well, isn't it funny :confused: That's why I like this place! Just shoot the messenger and discuss later :eek:

And as for this gem, it really made me smile...

why how many BJJ blackbelts have you spoken to :D

[omarthefish]

Actually it's heel hooks that you're describing. A straight ankle lock has plenty of pain in the initial stages before damage is done to allow for tapping. Not so with heel hooks.

Thank you for the correction.

[LoneTiger108]

why how many BJJ blackbelts have you spoken to :D

Ha! :D It aint the quantity, but the quality ;)

I don't like to name drop, so carry on with your rambling...

[faxiapreta]

Human nature. Their not that much harder to pull off compared to lying arm bars. Main thing is, you need to go in with a real intent to break the guys arm.

The first time someone enters a grappling or mma competition, he immediately figures out how wrong the above statement is.



There's no chance to control him and effectively warn him to give up or you'll break his arm. If you notice, all 3 examples I posted happened suddenly and without warning. If any of those 3 guys had paused to wait for a tap, the "victim" would have been able to roll out, squirm out or otherwise neutralize it.

Those happened so fast because they were incidental as well as accidental to the situation. Watch some matches and you will see those very same situational positions occuring. Most times, there is no break because they are so easily countered.




With gi wrestling they are even easier to apply because every time a guy goes for a lapel grip, he has done half the set up for you. That's why it's such a standard technique in Shuai Jiao. It's illegal...but standard. Everyone knows how to do it.

People who do full force grappling generally understand you never grab with the arm fully extended, so you don't give any kind of set-up like that.

[faxiapreta]

Same old, same old.

The people who actually compete in these events invariably say this:


I have seen knees blown out, arms brocken ankles snapped, shoulders wrecked etc, almost every comp has a big injury and thats just at local amature level, wnt to guess how much harder they go at it at national and pro MMA level?

In competition you are there to win, the opponent is responsible for his safety you apply the lock as hard and fast as you can, their is a reason that out of eevry kimura done standing to escape a rear body lock (which you see a lot because its a high percentage escape) you can only find about 3 examples of the arm breaking, there is a reson that you can only find about 2 examples of standing locks resulting in a break in the thousands of MMA fights on you tube, anyone want to guess what that reson is?


While people who have never competed almost always say this:




Their not that much harder to pull off compared to lying arm bars. Main thing is, you need to go in with a real intent to break the guys arm. There's no chance to control him and effectively warn him to give up or you'll break his arm. If you notice, all 3 examples I posted happened suddenly and without warning. If any of those 3 guys had paused to wait for a tap, the "victim" would have been able to roll out, squirm out or otherwise neutralize it.

With gi wrestling they are even easier to apply because every time a guy goes for a lapel grip, he has done half the set up for you. That's why it's such a standard technique in Shuai Jiao. It's illegal...but standard. Everyone knows how to do it.

[faxiapreta]

If you you tube you can see standing arm bar 101 BJJ shown standing, and more...not just a few clips.
I would agree that sportsmanship rather than ego, accounts for LESS 'intentional' arm injuries than some other ego driven opinions.

You might see them in demos, but there's a reason you rarely see them in competitions.

The rarely work.

[faxiapreta]

Ha! :D It aint the quantity, but the quality ;)

I don't like to name drop, so carry on with your rambling...

Quality meaning bjj blackbelts that agree with you?

Quantity-wise, you will find that the huge majority of bjj blackbelts will laugh and then commence to demonstrate to you how different they are.

Eddie Brave even did a great spoof on wing chun.

[k gledhill]

Quality meaning bjj blackbelts that agree with you?

Quantity-wise, you will find that the huge majority of bjj blackbelts will laugh and then commence to demonstrate to you how different they are.

Eddie Brave even did a great spoof on wing chun.

Eddie brave is ?

[Frost]

Eddie brave is ?

google him :)

failing that hes a BJJ blackbelt who comentates for the UFC

[Frost]

Ha! :D It aint the quantity, but the quality ;)

I don't like to name drop, so carry on with your rambling...

hell you name drop your sifu all the time so come on name them....i know a few of them, competed at their events so come on ....

[Frost]

Quality meaning bjj blackbelts that agree with you?

Quantity-wise, you will find that the huge majority of bjj blackbelts will laugh and then commence to demonstrate to you how different they are.

Eddie Brave even did a great spoof on wing chun.

to be fair most BJJ blackbelts probably dont care about wng chun, they are too busy competing, and if they do rain for MMA its not wing chun they turn to for their striking :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

google him :)

failing that hes a BJJ blackbelt who comentates for the UFC

You mean Eddie Bravo ?

[Frost]

You mean Eddie Bravo ?

yep im assuming thats who he meant him and rogan did a few spoofs, to be honest i simply read it as bravo, hes the only bjj blackbelt i know who gets up to that stuff:eek:

[LoneTiger108]

hell you name drop your sifu all the time so come on name them....i know a few of them, competed at their events so come on ....

That's because I promote him and he's a Wing Chun Sifu! :)

I've discussed before here who I've promoted in BJJ as my company was one of the first to do so at the SENi expo and seminars back in 2005. That was Roger Gracie and Braulio Estima with his brother Victor. All great great guys. And all could see what I was saying about the similarities.

The Judo 'legend' we hosted a seminar for was Neil Adams ;)

[Frost]

That's because I promote him and he's a Wing Chun Sifu! :)

I've discussed before here who I've promoted in BJJ as my company was one of the first to do so at the SENi expo and seminars back in 2005. That was Roger Gracie and Braulio Estima with his brother Victor. All great great guys. And all could see what I was saying about the similarities.

The Judo 'legend' we hosted a seminar for was Neil Adams ;)

so do you train them, or are they actually just placating you because they are making money off you? Like carlson did with Samuel?

Vitor refed several of my early comps at braulios place both great guys, and both train their striking out of places i know :)

[faxiapreta]

so do you train them, or are they actually just placating you because they are making money off you? Like carlsondid with Samuel?

victor refed several of my early comps at braulios place both great guys, and both train their striking out of places i know :)

You can find common ground between almost anything if you generalize enough. There are places in BJJ where you would use the centerline. There are also places in cricket where you would do the same. Same with swimming.

Of course they aren't going to start an argument with you about the differences. They are making money from their seminars for you.

You want to know the real feelings about what BJJ guys think the differences are between BJJ and WC? Go post on a BJJ forum and you will quickly find out.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Similarities between WC and BJJ:

In-close fighting systems.
Both advocate position before finishing manuvers
Principle based systems
Both seem to attract people that like to argue about crap.
Both have people over-consumed with lineage.
Neither is a cool as babes playing with bubbles !
http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2007/10/03oct26-bubbles-babe.jpg

[Frost]

Similarities between WC and BJJ:

In-close fighting systems.
Both advocate position before finishing manuvers
Principle based systems
Both seem to attract people that like to argue about crap.
Both have people over-consumed with lineage.
Neither is a cool as babes playing with bubbles !
http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2007/10/03oct26-bubbles-babe.jpg

umm have you seen kyra graice..... BJJ rules :o

[faxiapreta]

Principle based systems

And a non-principle based system would be...?

[LoneTiger108]

so do you train them, or are they actually just placating you because they are making money off you? Like carlson did with Samuel?

No I didn't take it up then as they based themselves in Birmingham. Besides, I'm a Wing Chun loyalist of sorts and they understood that!

Placate me? Maybe ;) It was a long time ago and what we helped them promote had not really been seen in such a way before 2005. Not publically. It was never about the money, never has been for me and there wasn't much to make then anyway!!


Vitor refed several of my early comps at braulios place both great guys, and both train their striking out of places i know :)

It would be cool to see them again, but they were more interested in all the weaponry stuff and performance training than anything else at the time. Man, Braulio is HUGE but I haven't really followed their success in the UK. I just know they're set up now, teaching fulltime and living it, so good luck to 'em!

[Frost]

No I didn't take it up then as they based themselves in Birmingham. Besides, I'm a Wing Chun loyalist of sorts and they understood that!

Placate me? Maybe ;) It was a long time ago and what we helped them promote had not really been seen in such a way before 2005. Not publically. It was never about the money, never has been for me and there wasn't much to make then anyway!!



It would be cool to see them again, but they were more interested in all the weaponry stuff and performance training than anything else at the time. Man, Braulio is HUGE but I haven't really followed their success in the UK. I just know they're set up now, teaching fulltime and living it, so good luck to 'em!

braulio is massive, no where near as big as roger, shame braulio wont be fighting MMA in the future he would have been very good,

[sanjuro_ronin]

And a non-principle based system would be...?

Irish shin kicking and Scottish head butting, that's ****s crazy !

[k gledhill]

Can we get back to the bubbles ?:D

As far as Brave/o , fair enough, VT has been so *******ized for the commercial side its lost its way LONGggg ago, UFC did it a favor and slapped its proverbial face awake :D
Better to be woken up than let snooze in a delusional daydream any longer.

[LoneTiger108]

braulio is massive, no where near as big as roger, shame braulio wont be fighting MMA in the future he would have been very good,

I found them quite similar, but Roger was defnitely the 'elder' ;)

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-ash1/v167/175/60/691719531/n691719531_595658_6935.jpg

[GlennR]

Can we get back to the bubbles ?:D

As far as Brave/o , fair enough, VT has been so *******ized for the commercial side its lost its way LONGggg ago, UFC did it a favor and slapped its proverbial face awake :D
Better to be woken up than let snooze in a delusional daydream any longer.


So what changes has VT made since the Gracie/ufc started Kevin?

To be honest, hardly anything worth a mention IMO

[anerlich]

+1 for the bubbles

[anerlich]

No. Actually, YouKnowWho posted an example from his personal experience but that's missing the point. I posted examples from Judo, MMA and Jujustu because it makes a stronger argument. If I post examples from TCMA you could always say that well, that's ok for some CMA schuck but that would never work against XYZ. So I made a point of pulling examples from the experiences of the "opposing side". That's just standard rhetorical technique. In any topic, doesn't have to be MA, you should always base your arguments on evidence that the other side has already accepted otherwise you end up begging the question.

Again, as YouKnowWho has pointed out, the arm breaks I showed in 2 of the 3 clips are standard Shuai Jiao techniques which many Shuai Jiao people train to apply in combat. His own teacher has been successful applying it even against a trained boxer. If I view the argument from Faxipraxy's shoes, or from your shoes perhaps, then it still begs the question: Is anecdotal evidence from a TCMA guy reliable as having actually happened? Maybe the "boxer" was just some semi-trained tomato can. Maybe it was actually just a hobbyest or an inexperienced amateur.


Holy crap, I'm back in English class.


Are you now moving the goalposts?

No, I'm looking at the argument from my own shoes, and marvelling at your facility for the mixed metaphor...

[omarthefish]

Holy crap, I'm back in English class.
Just remember to raise your hand first next time if you want to ask a question.:p


No, I'm looking at the argument from my own shoes, and marvelling at your facility for the mixed metaphor...
As long as we're in English class, I feel like I should point out that I was not using a metaphor (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/metaphor). That was an analogy (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/analogy).
;)

[anerlich]

Just remember to raise your hand first next time if you want to ask a question.


No questions, but my middle finger is raised.


That was an analogy.


"Looking" and "shoes" are not analogous.

Back to school for you, fish-boy.

[k gledhill]

So what changes has VT made since the Gracie/ufc started Kevin?

To be honest, hardly anything worth a mention IMO

Your opinion, noted.

[omarthefish]

No questions, but my middle finger is raised.
"Looking" and "shoes" are not analogous.

Back to school for you, fish-boy.
"looking" and "shoes" are also both from your post, not mine. So, back to ESL class until you figure out how comments from your post are indicative of me mixing metaphors.

Or are you just off your meds again and therefor confused about which comments came from outside your head and which comments were your own. . .

[Wayfaring]

I found them quite similar, but Roger was defnitely the 'elder' ;)

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-ash1/v167/175/60/691719531/n691719531_595658_6935.jpg

Either way, from a BJJ perspective and what has been proven on an international competition level, you don't get any better than those two guys ground skills wise.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I am new to Wing Chun, and I read there are Chin Na and Throws in Wing Chun. But also I have read that Chin Na and Throws doesn't exist in Wing Chun.

Could people please advice me if Wing Chun have Chin Na and Throws? Also if it does exist, then which lineage will this be in? Thanks :)

My instructor has an instructorship in Chin Na so there was an emphasis on it with our Wing Chun. It is the basis for a lot of our nonlethal self-defense. All wrist locks and so forth are Chin Na. You could call it WC. I suppose, but a lot of people just think of it is Chin Na elements within WC.

[LoneTiger108]

Either way, from a BJJ perspective and what has been proven on an international competition level, you don't get any better than those two guys ground skills wise.

Agreed. But I do have very limited knowledge of others and I use what I briefly learnt from these gents to assess what I see and hear.


My instructor has an instructorship in Chin Na so there was an emphasis on it with our Wing Chun. It is the basis for a lot of our nonlethal self-defense. All wrist locks and so forth are Chin Na. You could call it WC. I suppose, but a lot of people just think of it is Chin Na elements within WC.

Kind of like what I was suggesting about teachers having a TCM background. Accupuncture, Tui Na and especially herbal remedies were what my own Sigung was recognised for in the Chinese community, among other things like teaching Chinese reading, writing and Cooking skills, THEN his Martial Arts!

This is why the old term of 'Sifu' meant many things then. ;)

[anerlich]

So, back to ESL class until you figure out how comments from your post are indicative of me mixing metaphors

Omar, you would be one of the fish John West rejected. I'm going to follow his example.

[Wayfaring]

Agreed. But I do have very limited knowledge of others and I use what I briefly learnt from these gents to assess what I see and hear.

Unfortunately ground skills develop slowly over time. Attending one seminar with Braulio and Roger is really not going to make much difference at all in that respect unless you are putting into practice what you learned by training consistently.

[LoneTiger108]

Unfortunately ground skills develop slowly over time. Attending one seminar with Braulio and Roger is really not going to make much difference at all in that respect unless you are putting into practice what you learned by training consistently.

I didn't 'attend' this seminar, I organised it with business partners so we all had some time to chat about our stuff.

And, like I've said, I'm a Wing Chun loyalist who is not too interested in taking up wrestling/BJJ/Judo etc BUT if I did I would track these guys down. FWIW the best thing I learnt from Braulio and Roger was just their basic pleasurable attitude and approach to basic warm ups!! :D