Wing Chun Lineage with Chin Na and Throw

[kowloonboy]

I am new to Wing Chun, and I read there are Chin Na and Throws in Wing Chun. But also I have read that Chin Na and Throws doesn't exist in Wing Chun.

Could people please advice me if Wing Chun have Chin Na and Throws? Also if it does exist, then which lineage will this be in? Thanks :)

[LoneTiger108]

Could people please advice me if Wing Chun have Chin Na and Throws? Also if it does exist, then which lineage will this be in? Thanks :)

I think most Wing Chun that has some sort of emphasis on weaponry, especially the pole, will have chin na (promounced 'cum la' in Cantonese) The beginners exercise of Lapsau introduces this method of training.

This may narrow your search somewhat though as there aren't that many schools that teach pole plays to beginners fme ;)

[trubblman]

You probably can work throws into your using of VT. Throws and Chin Na on the grand scheme of things are relatively simple techniques to learn. The difficulty in my opinion is positioning yourself to work the techniques on your opponent. IMO I dont think there are throws or chin na intrinsic to VT because in trying to execute them the practitioner has to position his or her body facing away from the opponent in many cases. For example to perform a hip throw, a common throw in most martial arts, you have to turn your body away from the opponent.

[mjw]

THere is foot work for a few throws in the 3rd form then in the 2nd form the part with the 3 arm breaks could also be chin na type finger/wrist manipulations if you can make locks and throws work in your chi sau/ gore sau then use them just stick to the theory be simple and direct :)

[Jansingsang]

I believe Gary lam uses a bit of Chin na within his syllabus of Wing Chun finger pointing to the moon Peace:)

[trubblman]

I have seen some of Gary Lam's videos and he uses a lot of seizes and throws with his Wing Chun. It looks as if he uses a lot of arm wrap with kicks for takedowns. I have to say of all the practitioners of VT I am most impressed by him. Alas! I live on the East Coast.

[mvbrown21]

I am new to Wing Chun, and I read there are Chin Na and Throws in Wing Chun. But also I have read that Chin Na and Throws doesn't exist in Wing Chun.

Could people please advice me if Wing Chun have Chin Na and Throws? Also if it does exist, then which lineage will this be in? Thanks :)

Hey Kowloonboy,

It's nice to see your interest in WC and I wish you well on your journey!

Joy or ntc might be able to answer this better than me(Joy, hopefully there's no hard feelings between us :)), but I know that the Fong system has quite a few applications of wrist locks and arm bars. My Sifu is really good at them out of flow and in real application(he works at a mental health hospital). I know he did some supplemental training in them as well.

I would imagine too that you might find more "chin na" type applications in what some here call the "wristing" systems as opposed to the immovable elbow systems. This would probably be due to the fact that having control of the arm in that manner sets you up for easier application of locks. I may be wrong though?

You can see a few examples of some locks from our lineage in these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2UrDGNOBk0&feature=channel_video_title

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVl2JzhoDSQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfYa4RxW1E0&playnext=1&list=PLDEC69A4868878EEA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBEwkWwpf90&feature=BFa&list=PLDEC69A4868878EEA&index=5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0u3IFLCrBU&feature=channel_video_title

And then there's a few much less skilled examples in my video "Wing Chun Flow, Pt. 1" which you can find on my youtube page.

Good luck!

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=mvbrown21;1098544]Hey Kowloonboy,

It's nice to see your interest in WC and I wish you well on your journey!

Joy or ntc might be able to answer this better than me(Joy, hopefully there's no hard feelings between us :)), but I know that the Fong system has quite a few applications of wrist locks and arm bars.

----Matt- rest assured- no hard feelings whatsoever.
I respect Anerlich(Andrew N) but we will have different POVs on this.

(( I rather take flack than have it directed at my seniors. Common disclaimer in publishing as well)))))

IMO- control (the self and the other) are more important in wing chun than technique and when you keep developing on that path...throws, and joint control and breaks are goodies along the way. You don't need to change boats in midstream .

I respect and am interested in other approaches to chin na, throws and ground work.

joy chaudhuri

[YouKnowWho]

Trying to find locking and throwing in the WC system is almost the same as trying to find kicking and punching in the Judo system. Both make little sense IMO.

[Vajramusti]

Trying to find locking and throwing in the WC system is almost the same as trying to find kicking and punching in the Judo system. Both make little sense IMO.
----------------------------------------
It's ok- you have your own pre conceptions of what wing chun is about and you apparently
misread my post.

joy chaudhuri

[Mulong]

Even though some shifu don’t teach qinna or shuai, but all style of Chinese martial arts possess them.

[Vajramusti]

Even though some shifu don’t teach qinna or shuai, but all style of Chinese martial arts possess them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Ip man's wing chun as a system is fairly open ended- the limits may be in the practitioner, his
learning, diligence in practice and experience, imo ofcourse.

joy c

[anerlich]

I respect Anerlich(Andrew N) but we will have different POVs on this.


I appreciate and reciprocate the respect but am not so sure our opinions are that divergent.

Alan Orr's vids give a good overview of his and Robert Chu's approach to Chin-na as an aspect of their WC.

There are a few throwing applications on the forms and dummy sets, but very few if any practitioners train them to the degree where they could hang with a judo BB or experienced wrestler. IMO WC's forte is as a pugilistic system, and if you want to become a world class thrower of takedown artist you would be better studying other systems.


Ip man's wing chun as a system is fairly open ended- the limits may be in the practitioner, his
learning, diligence in practice and experience, imo ofcourse.


Agreed.

[dirtyrat]

Trying to find locking and throwing in the WC system is almost the same as trying to find kicking and punching in the Judo system. Both make little sense IMO.

Wing chun's arrow punch can easily lead to a throw called 'cracking' in shuaijiao.
In the CK set, you can find a shuaijiao move called 'elbow locking'. The 'lan sao' posture looks to me like a variation of shuaijiao 'pulling' throw. etc, etc.

WC seems to me, based on its favored structure and postures, to be a system that would favor more leg sweeping type of throws.

[YouKnowWho]

Wing chun's arrow punch can easily lead to a throw called 'cracking' in shuaijiao...

The major part of the throw is not the hand movement but the body movement. The throwing Shenfa (body method) requires:

- bend forward to touch your head to your knee.
- bend head down and kick leg up.
- spin your whole body along your spine axis.
- spin your upper body in one direction and spin your low body in opposite direction.
- ...

Those principles and trainings are missing in longfist, mantis, Baji, Tong bei, Zimer, Taiji, XingYi, Bagua, ... and not just missing in WC (if we can be honest to ourselves).

[dirtyrat]

The major part of the throw is not the hand movement but the body movement. The throwing Shenfa (body method) requires:

- bend forward to touch your head to your knee.
- bend head down and kick leg up.
- spin your whole body along your spine axis.
- spin your upper body in one direction and spin your low body in opposite direction.
- ...

Those principles and trainings are missing in longfist, mantis, Baji, Tong bei, Zimer, WC, Taiji, XingYi, Bagua, ...

Its missing because most of today's kung fu systems focus too much on forms training and not enough on basic fighting skills, tactics and strategies. The Chinese are notoriously secretive even among their own. Frankly IMHO much is lost in kung fu. Which is why many TCM practitioners can't hold their own against other MA. They only got pieces of an incomplete puzzle; the 'classical mess' Bruce Lee referred.

[YouKnowWho]

Its missing because most of today's kung fu systems focus too much on forms training and not enough on basic fighting skills, tactics and strategies. The Chinese are notoriously secretive even among their own. Frankly IMHO much is lost in kung fu. Which is why many TCM practitioners can't hold their own against other MA. They only got pieces of an incomplete puzzle; the 'classical mess' Bruce Lee referred.

Agree with you 100% there. Today, people only care about how many forms that they train. They don't look at TCMA from the angle of kicking, punching, locking, and throwing.

The 1st time that I saw a MT flying knee, I told myself that I wanted it even it wasn't in my style.

[dirtyrat]

The second section of SLT and Chum Kiu as a whole contain some pretty simple grappling dynamics.

Fan Sau combined with a cutting sweep is nice. This guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1si-7CPuiE) starts the tech as I would then moves into lots of striking... why not just throw the guy? Or hit him AND throw him? :confused: That's my understanding of the essence of Wing Chun - the violent takedown.Lan Sau has similar options: when combined with Chum Kiu's turning, a single Lan sao can be part of a neck throw and a double can be bear-hug type throw.

Totally agree with you. ;)

[dirtyrat]

Agree with you 100% there. Today, people only care about how many forms that they train. They don't look at TCMA from the angle of kicking, punching, locking, and throwing.

The 1st time that I saw a MT flying knee, I told myself that I wanted it even it wasn't in my style.

Make it yours :D. I feel that a system's forms shouldn't dictate your fighting preferences.

[Liddel]

I can only comment on my own school/lineage - we do not have any Chi Na to the true extent of the term. Grabbing and seizing limbs is counter to our fight strategy/mentality and breaks a major rule for us of using two hands on one etc.

However there is the odd elbow lock which tends to be momentary transition rather than a sunk lock like a 'come along' tech. Those of us that do employ locks have picked them up from sources other than VT.

Many VT systems use a traditional VT grab most often seen in a drill called Lop Sau where the thumb is not employed in the grab to avoid getting caught with Chi Na techs etc

We do not employ any throws either mainly due to range and with a focus on trips and sweeps rather than utilizing the hips to unbalance an opponent.

[YouKnowWho]

There are only around 40 different joint locks. It may take 8 hours to learn (assume you can learn 10 joint locks in 2 hours session). The joint lock is easy to learn but hard to apply (it's easier to apply in the ground game).

There are more than 60 categories of throws, a total over 400 throws. Both "踢(Ti) - foot sweep" and "别(Bie) - leg block" categories all contain more than 30 different way to apply. It may take you more than your life time to learn and master those 400 throws. But you only need to master 4 to 6 throws to use in combat.

It doesn't take that much time to bring both locking skill and throwing skill into your system no matter which style that you may come from. Both locking and throwing are not styles. It can be added into any TCMA style and there will be no conflict at all.

[Sihing73]

Trying to find locking and throwing in the WC system is almost the same as trying to find kicking and punching in the Judo system. Both make little sense IMO.

Hmmm,

Such a broad statement for both arts ;)

I guess you are unfamiliar with Atemi Wazi which is taught in some methods of Judo. :p

Sometimes, to say something makes little sense shows how little sense one actually has :D

[YouKnowWho]

I guess you are unfamiliar with Atemi Wazi which is taught in some methods of Judo.

Will you choose Judo as if you want to learn your striking skill?

[Sihing73]

Will you choose Judo as if you want to learn your striking skill?

I did Judo first and earned my Black Belt. I found it to be quite a good martial art and, when incorporating strikes, to be effective for the street also. I think one of the main benefits was the conditioning. Spend a lot of time falling and throwing and you will be used to contact and very well conditioned.

However, to answer your question, Judo is not primarily a striking art so no I would not take Judo if I wanted to learn to strike. I was introduced to WC by a guy I worked with when I was competing and thought I was pretty hot. He took me down quite a few notches.

Still, Judo, with Atemi Wazi, which is part of traditional training, is very effective.

[kowloonboy]

Thanks to all which have gave me more knowledge in the understanding of Wing Chun. :)

From the replied so far, I see that Chin Na, Throw, or control does exist in Wing Chun. Which is good. There are also some which suggested that if I apply the Wing Chun principle, and if I can Chin Na, throw or control, there is nothing wrong in adding into my Wing Chun style.

My new question is this, if I stick with the Wing Chun principle, and if I see that there are other applications which might be able to applied to Wing Chun, I can use it? Because that is my Wing Chun? Also from what I have seen so far (Don't flame me). A few of Yip Man's student's Wing Chun is now know as WSL Wing Chun, William Cheung Wing Chun, Ho Kam Ming Wing Chun, and so on. They are all different because that is how their interpretation in Wing Chun. So when I am good enough one day to teach, it will become Kowloon Boy's Wing Chun? (Not my real name of course, but for example) So I can add things into my Kowloon Boy Wing Chun? Is this how it work? As I seen that Sifu Augustine Fong and Sifu Gary Lam have a lot of Chin Na in their Wing Chun as seen from clips in this thread. Is this what it meant by my Wing Chun is not your Wing Chun?

[kowloonboy]

From Wikipedia:
Principles

The eight principles of Wing Tsun form a system of aggressive self-defense that allows one to adapt immediately to the size, strength and fighting style of an attacker. There are many ways to express the principles, since they are essentially very simple. However, it takes years of performing the forms and practicing chi sao with a knowledgeable instructor to train the body to follow the principles reflexively and to understand their applications in specific situations.

As well as describing the progression of a self-defense response, the strength principles also describe the progression a WingTsun student must follow over years of training: first, form training and a great deal of punching to learn to be relaxed in a fight and to (counter intuitively) punch without tension; second, countless hours of chi sao training to be able to yield to — and exploit — the attacker's strength; finally, strength training specific to WT to increase punching and striking power.
Fighting Principles

Go forward (問路尋橋手先行) Advance immediately in order to establish contact with the limbs (allowing for Chi Sao reflexes to take over) or — even better — to strike first. This counter intuitive reaction will often surprise the attacker, and moves the fight into a close distance in which tactile reflexes will dominate over visual reactions, where the Wing Tsun practitioner is likely to have an advantage.
Stick to the opponent (手黐手,無埞(地方)走) If you are unable to strike and disable your opponent, but instead make contact with some part of his body (other than his face, throat, etc.), stick to it. Often this will be an opponent's arm; if you maintain constant contact with his arms, how can he launch an attack at you without your knowing? This applies for the time only when the opponent is blocking your shortest way of attack. Once there is opportunity, you give up sticking, and go in with your attack (flow).
Yield to a greater force (用巧勁，避拙力-即借力） Since one cannot expect to be stronger than every potential attacker, one must train in such a way as to be able to win even against a stronger opponent. Chi Sao teaches the reflexes necessary to react to an opponent's attacks. When an attack is simply stronger than yours, your trained reflexes will tell your body to move out of the way of the attack and find another angle for attack.
Follow through (迫步追形) As an extension of the first principle, if an opponent retreats, a WingTsun practitioner's immediate response is to continue moving forward, not allowing the opponent to recover and have an opportunity to reconsider his strategy of attack. Many styles that rely on visual cues prefer to step back and wait and time their attacks, as commonly seen in sport and tournament fighting.

Energy Principles

Give up your own Force One needs to be relaxed in order to move dynamically and to react to the actions of an opponent. When you are tense, your "own force" acts as a parking brake—you must disengage it first before you can move quickly.
Get rid of your opponent's Force This is similar to the third fighting principle. When an attacker wants to use strength to overpower a fighter, the response is not to try to overcome strength with strength but to nullify this force by moving your attacker's force away from you or to move yourself away from it.
Use Your Attacker's Force against him Take advantage of the force your opponent gives you. If an opponent pulls you toward him, use that energy as part of your attack. Or if an opponent pushes the left side of your body, you can act as a revolving door and use that force in an attack with your right arm.
Add Your Own Force In addition to borrowing power from your attacker, you can add your own force in an attack when your hand is free.

---

So if other applications, which can be added without breaching the principles then it is still Wing Chun?

[YouKnowWho]

my Wing Chun is not your Wing Chun?

If your WC is your teacher's WC, you are only a good "copy machine". You will have no contribution to the TCMA world. You train TCMA for you and not for your teacher or for your style.

The following principles are general TCMA principles (not only for the WC system). You can go a bit deeper than that.

1. Go forward (問路尋橋手先行) - you have to build leg bridge before you can build arm bridge.

2. Stick to the opponent (手黐手,無埞(地方)走) - Tinjin can go both ways. It's better to stick, break, enter then just stick there too long.

3. Yield to a greater force (用巧勁，避拙力-即借力）- You have to give force before you can borrow force.

4. Follow through (迫步追形) - To run your opponent down is better than just to chass him.


So if other applications, which can be added without breaching the principles then it is still Wing Chun?
In the Zimen system, there is a principle "乱抽麻(Luan Chou Ma) - pull thread heads off your opponent's shirt" that can be integrated into your WC chain punches very well. Instead of thinking about striking out, you think about pulling your striking hands back as fast as you can instead. This will increase your chain punches speed big time.

[kowloonboy]

If your WC is your teacher's WC, you are only a good "copy machine". You will have no contribution to the TCMA world. You train TCMA for you and not for your teacher or for your style.

The following principles are general TCMA principles (not only for the WC system). You can go a bit deeper than that.

1. Go forward (問路尋橋手先行) - you have to build leg bridge before you can build arm bridge.

2. Stick to the opponent (手黐手,無埞(地方)走) - Tinjin can go both ways. It's better to stick, break, enter then just stick there too long.

3. Yield to a greater force (用巧勁，避拙力-即借力）- You have to give force before you can borrow force.

4. Follow through (迫步追形) - To run your opponent down is better than just to chass him.


In the Zimen system, there is a principle "乱抽麻(Luan Chou Ma) - pull thread heads off your opponent's shirt" that can be integrated into your WC chain punches very well. Instead of thinking about striking out, you think about pulling your striking hands back as fast as you can instead. This will increase your chain punches speed big time.

Thanks for passing on this knowledge and wisdom. Cheers. :)

[Runlikehell]

Yes, many thanks for sharing this information.

[wtxs]

The second section of SLT and Chum Kiu as a whole contain some pretty simple grappling dynamics.

Fan Sau combined with a cutting sweep is nice. This guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1si-7CPuiE) starts the tech as I would then moves into lots of striking... why not just throw the guy? Or hit him AND throw him? :confused: That's my understanding of the essence of Wing Chun - the violent takedown.

The goal WC is to end an confrontation quickly.

What you had suggested would give your opponent an second chance at you ... I would not consider that to be the essence of WC ... just MHO.

[kowloonboy]

why not just throw the guy? Or hit him AND throw him?

Even though I am new to Wing Chun, I don't see anything wrong with this. If we throw the guy on the ground and follow up with attacks, then our opponent no longer has control right? Since he/she didn't expect to be on the floor. During this shocking period, we can finish them off, right? One of the key strategy in fighting to surprise our opponent, doesn't this surprise them?

[YouKnowWho]

Why not just throw the guy? Or hit him AND throw him?

It make sense to throw your opponent and then hit him because when he is on the ground, he is not going anywhere. It also makes sense to combine strike and throw as one move. It doesn't make sense to hit him and then throw him. The reason is simple. Your striking may cause the distance between you and your opponent to be increased, that will not be helpful for your throw.

[couch]

Wing Chun is opportunistic. If a throw presents itself and you are comfortable in this arena, go for it.

[YouKnowWho]

such as holding the back of your opponent's head and smashing their face, ... To follow this kind of strike up with a throw has a narrower set of requirements and is not as high percentage as the methods outlined above.

I won't call that throw but to "let go your opponent's dead body" instead. :D

[wolf3001]

Each school is different I have read several branches out of China use Chin Na but to my knowledge my teacher doesn't have much knowledge of it. I for one never learned many joint locks or holds. My teacher did some Jujutsu and has showed us a few things although not much. We have learned to throw someone who is choking us from behind as well as some knife defenses. The only throws or sweeping techniques I know come out of the forms. I know some other things but they aren't from Wing Chun.

Just looking on yuotube because I have seen Wing Chun people using Chin Na here before I found this. I have used some of this stuff before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fWMuCYCdd0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ioeClKgnuY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFyYOFd3A0w&feature=related

Some other people from the William Cheung system showing off ways to use our Siu Lim Tau.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqQ4x_sb-U0

[kowloonboy]

Just looking on yuotube because I have seen Wing Chun people using Chin Na here before I found this. I have used some of this stuff before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fWMuCYCdd0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ioeClKgnuY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFyYOFd3A0w&feature=related

Some other people from the William Cheung system showing off ways to use our Siu Lim Tau.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqQ4x_sb-U0

Thanks, they are very educational. :)

[wolf3001]

I would like to learn Chin Na more because I have very limited joint lock knowledge. I wouldn't mind doing some Aikido or Jujutsu as well. There are a lot of Wing Chun techniques that to me are good set up for applying a lock. Also if I could I would try some Shuai Jiao.

[kowloonboy]

I would like to learn Chin Na more because I have very limited joint lock knowledge. I wouldn't mind doing some Aikido or Jujutsu as well. There are a lot of Wing Chun techniques that to me are good set up for applying a lock. Also if I could I would try some Shuai Jiao.

I came from Shaolin Kung Fu background, and I think that you might be better off learning Shaolin Chin Na, as it will be closer to Wing Chun as it is still Kung Fu. Since Wing Chun's root is supposed to came from Shaolin, it make more sense.

There is a good book "Shaolin Chin Na by Jwing-Ming Yang", check it out. Also from my limited knowledge of Aikido and Traditional Jujutsu, they use big circle to do locks (Chin Na). Kung Fu Chin Na, doesn't use big circle so it might be better to apply to Wing Chun Principle. As it is more direct and use smaller movement to do the same thing.

http://www.artofwarfc.cn/?q=node/276

[YouKnowWho]

I would like to learn Chin Na more because I have very limited joint lock knowledge. I wouldn't mind doing some Aikido or Jujutsu as well. There are a lot of Wing Chun techniques that to me are good set up for applying a lock. Also if I could I would try some Shuai Jiao.

SC master David C. K. Lin has a video tape that contain 40 different joint locking skills. That's the best joint locking information that I'll recommand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vXM3zaBnO4

Of course my longfist brother Jwing-Ming Yang's Shaolin Chin Na book is good too.

[wtxs]

- a freshly downed opponent loses the initiative (at least temporarily.)

So the violent takedown is a very important part of Wing Chun's method; the more damage you inflict on an opponent going down, the less likely they are to recover quickly (if at all) and the more time you have to deal with whatever situation you find yourself in.

My question to you is ... why do you learn WC? Could it be that you hope to end an confrontation quickly if happens. and not give your attacker the remote possibility of an second chance? This is the goal of any martial art ... WC"s goal is to use the least number of technique/movement toward that end.

The violent take down is good, I prefer the violent knock down / knock out.

[Phil Redmond]

Trying to find locking and throwing in the WC system is almost the same as trying to find kicking and punching in the Judo system. Both make little sense IMO.
A fight is a fight. You take what's available. Also Jigaro Kano didn't develop Judo as a fighting system. Wing Chun is a fighting system. It'd be better to say that there is no Cum Na in the Wing Chun you do than to say that it doesn't exist. I know it exists for me and other WC people.

[faxiapreta]

A fight is a fight. You take what's available. Also Jigaro Kano didn't develop Judo as a fighting system. Wing Chun is a fighting system. It'd be better to say that there is no Cum Na in the Wing Chun you do than to say that it doesn't exist. I know it exists for me and other WC people.

Yes Kano developed judo as a fighting system. That was his whole original philosophy.

He turned traditional jujutsu into a more realistic fighting system by emphasizing randori and groundwork.

[Phil Redmond]

Yes Kano developed judo as a fighting system. That was his whole original philosophy.

He turned traditional jujutsu into a more realistic fighting system by emphasizing randori and groundwork.
Some say that he took the more violent aspects of Jujitsu out so that his art could be used in competitions and taught in schools.

[faxiapreta]

Some say that he took the more violent aspects of Jujitsu out so that his art could be used in competitions and taught in schools.

What he did was take out the parts that couldn't be practiced full force in order to make it more effective.

He proved his point in a match-up between older styles of Jiu-jitsu and Judo at the Tokyo police headquarters in the late 1800's. After that, Judo was named the Japanese national martial art and became the official art used by law enforcement.

Supposedly Kano actually became disappointed that sport judo started to become too watered down as a sport.

[B.Tunks]

Welcome back Knifefighter.

[Phil Redmond]

What he did was take out the parts that couldn't be practiced full force in order to make it more effective.

He proved his point in a match-up between older styles of Jiu-jitsu and Judo at the Tokyo police headquarters in the late 1800's. After that, Judo was named the Japanese national martial art and became the official art used by law enforcement.

Supposedly Kano actually became disappointed that sport judo started to become too watered down as a sport.
Then I stand corrected. Thanks... :)

[Frost]

A fight is a fight. You take what's available. Also Jigaro Kano didn't develop Judo as a fighting system. Wing Chun is a fighting system. It'd be better to say that there is no Cum Na in the Wing Chun you do than to say that it doesn't exist. I know it exists for me and other WC people.

already said i know but what kano did was develop a fighting system that was so good during the police trials his guys killed a few of the deadly JJJ guys, thats why the police took it as their official art

[kowloonboy]

Wing Chun is a fighting system. It'd be better to say that there is no Cum Na in the Wing Chun you do than to say that it doesn't exist. I know it exists for me and other WC people.

I have just finished reading the "Complete Wing Chun - The definitive guide to Wing Chun's History and Traditions by Robert Chu, Rene Ritchie, and Y. Wu" And I found that there are lineages in Wing Chun does have techniques for uprooting (Throwing?), controlling, choking, joint locking, counter joint locking, moving stance take down and sweeping.

I think I need to read the book again, and make notes. Because there are so much to take in. :)

[Mulong]

A classical martial artist has to be able to dismantle his discipline down to its cores, i.e., primary movements, which in Chinese martial arts (Zhongguowushu/中国武术) refer to as siji/四击 or the four attacks, which consist of:


Da/打:
Da refers to as striking with any part of the upper torso; be it with the first, palm, shoulder, hip, head, etc.

Ti/踢:
Ti refers to kicks; therefore, strikes generated by the legs; be it kicks or knees.

Na/拿:
Na refers to holds, which is actually short for qinna/擒拿 or seize and hold which consist of varies form of manipulating of the human anatomy:
•Dividing muscles or fenjin/分筋 (The theory of tearing muscles)
•Grabbing muscles or zhuajin/抓筋; (The theory of grasping muscles)
•Cross bone or cuogu/错骨 (The theory of breaking bones)
•Point hole or dianxue/点穴 (The theory of hitting pressure points)
•Hold pulse or namei/拿脉 (The theory of holding arteries)
•Closing air biqi/闭气 (The theory of closing the meridian line/pass-through web (jingluo/经络)

Shuai/摔
Shuai refers to throwing-down, which is actually short for shuaijiao/摔跤 or throwing-wrestling, which consist of varies take-downs:

•Holding foot throwing or baojiaoshuai/抱脚摔 (Theories/applications consisting of leg grasp.)
•Going over one’s back, holding waist throw or guobeiyaoshuai/過背抱腰摔 (Theories/applications consisting of any throw over ones’ back, or lifting someone via their waist.)
•Hooking foot throwing or goujiaoshuai/勾脚摔 (Theories/applications consisting of leg trips or sweeps.)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some say that he took the more violent aspects of Jujitsu out so that his art could be used in competitions and taught in schools.

He kept those in for the advanced levels.
Kano thought, and was proven correct, that if you train the basic and "safer" moves that can be done at full force VS a resisteing opponent, you become a better fighter, quicker and with THAT CORE you can then apply those techniques that are "too dangerous" to apply at full speed in training.
In other words and applying it to WC:
You take punching and palm to the head and torso, develop it at full speed and full force VS a resisting opponent, then you take those skills and attributes and you can apply them to a punch or open hand to the neck or throat without having to actually hit anyone in the throat full force.

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCkJ8I7ZqXU&feature=player_embedded :) ;)

[Lee Chiang Po]

Yes Kano developed judo as a fighting system. That was his whole original philosophy.

He turned traditional jujutsu into a more realistic fighting system by emphasizing randori and groundwork.

No, No, No. He developed judo simply for compitition. It is not a fighting system, but it can be. You will not improve on real Jiujitsu. Not by removing all the good stuff.

[Frost]

No, No, No. He developed judo simply for compitition. It is not a fighting system, but it can be. You will not improve on real Jiujitsu. Not by removing all the good stuff.

of course not, its not like the organised competition came years later ...and its not like he destroyed the JJJ clubs in the police trials, and his sport guys ended up killing a few of the JJJ guys, and the domination was so total the police accepted Judo as their offical martial art

i mean non of that is documentated fact or anything :rolleyes:

[Vajramusti]

I am new to Wing Chun, and I read there are Chin Na and Throws in Wing Chun. But also I have read that Chin Na and Throws doesn't exist in Wing Chun.

Could people please advice me if Wing Chun have Chin Na and Throws? Also if it does exist, then which lineage will this be in? Thanks :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another long and wandering thread!!


Na and throw are functions-not styles. A trained and good wing chun person when taught properly and practices accordingly should be able to use chin na, cum na,cum la and throws.

So the answer is depends on who, what,when ,where. A mechanical and only technique based sub style is a different matter. But then- people like to argue.

A sense of the structure of joints and a sense of balance and controlling both are part and parcel of wing chun.

But the art has spread quite unevenly-hence the reference to who, what, when and where.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

A trained and good wing chun person when taught properly and practices accordingly should be able to use chin na, cum na,cum la and throws.

So the answer is depends on who, what,when ,where

Agreed. Good post Joy :) But I would also add the 'why' factor!

[faxiapreta]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another long and wandering thread!!


Na and throw are functions-not styles. A trained and good wing chun person when taught properly and practices accordingly should be able to use chin na, cum na,cum la and throws.

So the answer is depends on who, what,when ,where. A mechanical and only technique based sub style is a different matter. But then- people like to argue.

A sense of the structure of joints and a sense of balance and controlling both are part and parcel of wing chun.

But the art has spread quite unevenly-hence the reference to who, what, when and where.

joy chaudhuri

What is a mechanical and only technique based sub style.

[ShortBridge]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Na and throw are functions-not styles. A trained and good wing chun person when taught properly and practices accordingly should be able to use chin na, cum na,cum la and throws.

So the answer is depends on who, what,when ,where. A mechanical and only technique based sub style is a different matter. But then- people like to argue.

A sense of the structure of joints and a sense of balance and controlling both are part and parcel of wing chun.

But the art has spread quite unevenly-hence the reference to who, what, when and where.

joy chaudhuri

Well, said.

A Wing Chun sifu who I usually don't see eye to eye with once answered the question "Is chin na part of wing chun?"

With; "Chin Na is part of kung fu"

His answer stuck with me and has made more and more sense to me over time as I've grown to understand things better and as I've spent time with Chinese sifus who don't have the hangups that their western counterparts sometimes do with "what's traditional".

The facts (according to lowly me) are that there are clear examples of some Chin Na in wing chun. Simply; Lap Sao is chin na. There are others, but not an extensive vocabulary spelled out as a ju jistsu-type system. That doesn't mean that before we (westerners) started writing down and debating the purity of ciricula that Chinese practitioners following very traditional examples wouldn't have found and used this connection and taken it wherever made sense to them.

Is breathing part of wing chun? Most "traditional" wing chun schools that I've had a chance to exchange with don't "teach" a prescriptive set of breathing with wing chun. That doesn't mean it wouldn't have been something a traditional, advancing or advanced practitioner back in the day wouldn't have done. Same with a lot of things; physical exercise, meditation...

Whether someone chooses to develop themselves and their students in that direction is a choice. I don't think either choice is more or less legitimate.

But, that's just my humble opinion, of course. I make no claims of expertise actual or implied. It's just where asking myself that question for the last 15 years or so has led me. I may feel differently some day. I don't expect this question to be "resolved" for everyone ever.

[Wayfaring]

A Wing Chun sifu who I usually don't see eye to eye with once answered the question "Is chin na part of wing chun?"

With; "Chin Na is part of kung fu"

His answer stuck with me and has made more and more sense to me over time as I've grown to understand things better and as I've spent time with Chinese sifus who don't have the hangups that their western counterparts sometimes do with "what's traditional".


So the understanding is that if something fits in to the overall fight game that you need to develop it regardless of individual attachment to style.

And if you call it "kung fu" then apparently western people who do Chinese arts can accept that fact too.

Of course if you label that "MMA" then they immediately grow less intelligent....

[ShortBridge]

I don't think that's exactly right. But, lets not argue about MMA, that never goes anywhere.

[Vajramusti]

So the understanding is that if something fits in to the overall fight game that you need to develop it regardless of individual attachment to style.

((Not an accurate representation of what was said. See Jon's post and mine))Joy


Of course if you label that "MMA" then they immediately grow less intelligent....

((Don't care to get deflected to a discussion of MMA. No reflection on those who do MMA))Joy

[Wayfaring]

((Don't care to get deflected to a discussion of MMA. No reflection on those who do MMA))Joy

Well in that case let's have a good healthy discussion of the necessity of Chin Na techniques within overall "kung fu" and nobody will mention the dreaded "M" acronym.

I won't deflect the conversation too far to point out the mind-numbingly obvious fact that once you do "wing chun" with "another unnamed kung fu discipline that does chin na", you in fact are "mixing" your martial arts. Oh, horror.

But hey, let's not discuss those people. You know, the ones who mix their martial arts. And of course it's no reflection on "those people".

In fact, let's just skip over the mindset akin to racism and just discuss this on the merits.

What merits, you say? Oh, that you might need to develop some skills in clinch, throw, joint locks, takedowns. Oh, we can discuss those. But we have to make sure that we use Chinese terms now. In case we might gravitate too close to discussions related to "those people".

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Wayfaring]

Na and throw are functions-not styles. A trained and good wing chun person when taught properly and practices accordingly should be able to use chin na, cum na,cum la and throws.


Oh really. And I suppose you practice these on a regular basis, right? Otherwise how can you obtain skill at them? So, out of say 2 times a week practice, what percentage of time would you say you work with chin na, cum na, cum la and / or throws?

And of your students, what percentage of them would you say, including the 3 other instructors you have listed, could engage in chin na, cum na cum la or throws successfully against a skilled opponent?

Or rather after reconsideration, is this statement a lot of hot air and there are a very low percentage of wing chun persons that are taught properly techniques relating to chin na, cum na, cum la and throws? And of those most of them learn this via cross-training in other arts that specialize in these techniques and approaches?

[Wayfaring]

I don't think that's exactly right. But, lets not argue about MMA, that never goes anywhere.

So the person you were quoting, when making the statement "chin na is part of kung fu" did not intend for a person to pick up that skillset from other places than wing chun?

Or what "don't you think is exactly right"?

To me it was fairly clear and obvious that this was a veiled instruction to cross-train.

You know, kind of like Yip Man did. Kind of like most of the "masters" referenced do.

But hey, if I misunderstood the lesson, please clear it up for me. I'm all ears.

[ShortBridge]

You did misunderstand, but I'm not getting sucked into this argument. There is no part of me that things you may in fact be trying to understand.

I'll point out, though that I never said it was necessary to do Chin Na. As a matter of fact, if you read what I wrote without agenda, you'll see that I said it was a choice, that's far from saying it's necessary. I also never said you go get these techniques from another kung fu system.

You're reading what you want to read and you're going to continue arguing for what you want to argue for. I'm fine with you training however you want to train, so I'm not sure why this is necessary, unless you're trying to influence me, which is just as unlikely, I'm afraid.

As for a suggestion that I was offering a "lesson", another misconception, I am not. I just threw my thoughts in on the original question. Take um or (in your case) leave 'um. I haven't suggested that I'm anyone of consequence, so how about ignoring the 2 posts a month I contribute to this forum since we're clearly not of the same mindset.

[faxiapreta]

What merits, you say? Oh, that you might need to develop some skills in clinch, throw, joint locks, takedowns. Oh, we can discuss those. But we have to make sure that we use Chinese terms now. In case we might gravitate too close to discussions related to "those people"

You mean the ones in which, to be effective, you might have to abandon some of the "principles" of your main system to make it effective?

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=

In fact, let's just skip over the mindset akin to racism and just discuss this on the merits.

[/QUOTE]



That sir, is the most succint point ever made.

[Vajramusti]

Oh really. And I suppose you practice these on a regular basis, right? Otherwise how can you obtain skill at them? So, out of say 2 times a week practice, what percentage of time would you say you work with chin na, cum na, cum la and / or throws?

And of your students, what percentage of them would you say, including the 3 other instructors you have listed, could engage in chin na, cum na cum la or throws successfully against a skilled opponent?

Or rather after reconsideration, is this statement a lot of hot air and there are a very low percentage of wing chun persons that are taught properly techniques relating to chin na, cum na, cum la and throws? And of those most of them learn this via cross-training in other arts that specialize in these techniques and approaches?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Given the tone of the above post - not worth an answer, Would be a waste of time.

joy chaudhuri

[ShortBridge]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1103953]That sir, is the most succint point ever made.

What is, comparing the fact that I'm not personally drawn to octagon fighting to the oppression of people based on their ethnic heritage?

I'm not particularly interested in badminton either, what does that make me, an anti-semite?

[Wayfaring]

You mean the ones in which, to be effective, you might have to abandon some of the "principles" of your main system to make it effective?

yes those.

[Wayfaring]

You did misunderstand, but I'm not getting sucked into this argument.

What argument? I am asking you to explain the detail of an exchange with an unnamed wing chun sifu where he seemed to indicate that chin na techniques were not in wing chun but were in kung fu.

You started acting weird, and refused to answer, and instead are making up a bunch of stuff to do with arguments.

What did the guy mean?

Is that simple and clear enough?

[Wayfaring]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Given the tone of the above post - not worth an answer, Would be a waste of time.

joy chaudhuri

No Joy, what is a waste of time is the condescending attitude which you are portraying here.

Why it is a waste of time is because the general public already knows you are full of hot air when you state that properly trained wing chun personnel are adept at chin na, throws and other grappling and ground related arts.

Why they know this is that there exists plenty of evidence supporting the arts that are adept in those things. And zero evidence supporting your conjecture.

So for you it is simpler to denigrate me and say I'm not worth conversing with.

Talk to the wind. That's where your arguments are, and where your non-existent skills in areas you don't train are.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1104096]No Joy, what is a waste of time is the condescending attitude which you are portraying here.

Why it is a waste of time is because the general public already knows you are full of hot air when you state that properly trained wing chun personnel are adept at chin na, throws and other grappling and ground related arts.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Don't waste your time or mine.

[ShortBridge]

What argument? I am asking you to explain the detail of an exchange with an unnamed wing chun sifu where he seemed to indicate that chin na techniques were not in wing chun but were in kung fu.

You started acting weird, and refused to answer, and instead are making up a bunch of stuff to do with arguments.

What did the guy mean?

Is that simple and clear enough?

Can't say for sure what he meant and I don't want to speak for him or drag his name into this thread. What I took it to mean was that Chinese martial artists traditionally drew from a number of things, not systems, not styles, but things like qi gung, meditation, chinese medicine, etc and that chin na was among those things. It wasn't important whether they were explicitly a codified part of the system that they practiced or not, they just didn't think of it that way. Whether or not that's what he meant, that's how I took it and how I have come to think over the years of meeting and training with people.

I don't think that's the same as American MMA. Not saying anything negative about MMA, it's just not what I do and I see them as different paths.

[Wayfaring]

What is, comparing the fact that I'm not personally drawn to octagon fighting to the oppression of people based on their ethnic heritage?


No. Since you are not understanding, let me draw you a picture. This thread portrays a tone of elitism to do with wing chun. How this plays out is the smiles and winks and conjecture about how people who train in a close quarter striking art somehow automagically pick up amazing skills in grappling, throws, locks, and similar techniques which they don't train. And in a similar sense, a nose in the air attitude towards "MMA".

What is remarkable about that is that it is somewhat of an elitist western mindset. Chinese sifus seem to be much more practical in nature dealing with this. They train what works. However, the western mind, infused with eastern exotic concepts, training and skills, somehow seems to lose objectivity and construct a paper mache house to live in.

Only in the west do you find the obnoxiousness to take culture which originates somewhere else and so fixate upon it that you build little cults far removed from reality, even far removed from where the original culture intends. The hilarious aspect of this is that even the original masters cross-trained. They just attributed all their learning to their main sifu as that was proper culturally.

[Wayfaring]

Don't waste your time or mine.

Get real.

Posting on a forum in any sense wastes both yours and my time.

So either substantiate your claims of a properly trained wing chun person being able to perform in a live environment doing chin na, cum na, throws, or admit you were spouting BS.

The only waste of time is the amount of time you stay in denial that you can obtain skill in an area without training it directly, or the amount of time you are wasting in avoiding admitting that is a dumb idea so you can save face. That is the real waste of time.

[Wayfaring]

Can't say for sure what he meant and I don't want to speak for him or drag his name into this thread. What I took it to mean was that Chinese martial artists traditionally drew from a number of things, not systems, not styles, but things like qi gung, meditation, chinese medicine, etc and that chin na was among those things. It wasn't important whether they were explicitly a codified part of the system that they practiced or not, they just didn't think of it that way. Whether or not that's what he meant, that's how I took it and how I have come to think over the years of meeting and training with people.

You are getting closer to reality here. The truth is yes they drew from a number of things as you state. However, they had no clear line of distinction between whether something was a system or style as opposed to internals, meditation, medicine, etc.

Do you think someone saw a skilled judo player and said "whoa, that's a system we can't learn that". Or do you think they got on the mat and exhanged technique and learned from one another?



I don't think that's the same as American MMA. Not saying anything negative about MMA, it's just not what I do and I see them as different paths.

There are similarities and differences in any comparison and contrast exercise. There certainly are glaring similarities in this comparison on many fronts. Except that it's not what you do.

So what do you see as the most obvious differences?

[ShortBridge]

No. Since you are not understanding, let me draw you a picture. This thread portrays a tone of elitism to do with wing chun. How this plays out is the smiles and winks and conjecture about how people who train in a close quarter striking art somehow automagically pick up amazing skills in grappling, throws, locks, and similar techniques which they don't train. And in a similar sense, a nose in the air attitude towards "MMA".

What is remarkable about that is that it is somewhat of an elitist western mindset. Chinese sifus seem to be much more practical in nature dealing with this. They train what works. However, the western mind, infused with eastern exotic concepts, training and skills, somehow seems to lose objectivity and construct a paper mache house to live in.

Only in the west do you find the obnoxiousness to take culture which originates somewhere else and so fixate upon it that you build little cults far removed from reality, even far removed from where the original culture intends. The hilarious aspect of this is that even the original masters cross-trained. They just attributed all their learning to their main sifu as that was proper culturally.

I joined this thread late and to be honest haven't read it all. No winkies or smilies in my posts on it and I don't see myself in your comments at all, so I'm just going to assume that I stepped into the middle of something that's got nothing to do with me.

I am a wing chun player, though I have not always been. I have learned some chin na from reliable sources, though I don't claim to be a ground fighter. As a matter of fact, I don't claim to be anything.

Would really like to get through a thread on this forum someday that doesn't end up in an argument about MMA. Haven't managed it yet, though.

[GlennR]

What is, comparing the fact that I'm not personally drawn to octagon fighting to the oppression of people based on their ethnic heritage?

I'm not particularly interested in badminton either, what does that make me, an anti-semite?



Who said anything about MMA or you in fact

I was commenting on his statement in a general context

He makes a very valid point.... lets talk about each point on its merit, not if its kung fu, karate, silat or effin badmington.

GlennR

[Wayfaring]

I am a wing chun player, though I have not always been. I have learned some chin na from reliable sources, though I don't claim to be a ground fighter. As a matter of fact, I don't claim to be anything.

Many of us have similar backgrounds. There aren't a lot of lineages in wing chun with chin na, throw, and ground games. Actually probably one exception is weng chun and Andreas Hoffman.


Would really like to get through a thread on this forum someday that doesn't end up in an argument about MMA. Haven't managed it yet, though.

Why are you so overly sensitive about MMA arguments? Especially in a thread that is discussing locking and throwing skills which probably intuitively are less present in main wing chun training than they are in MMA training?

What is it about discussing MMA types of training and rounded skillsets that is so upsetting to you? To me it's just a normal discussion of the ranges of training and what's available out there.

[Vajramusti]

I am new to Wing Chun, and I read there are Chin Na and Throws in Wing Chun. But also I have read that Chin Na and Throws doesn't exist in Wing Chun.

Could people please advice me if Wing Chun have Chin Na and Throws? Also if it does exist, then which lineage will this be in? Thanks :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
kowloonboy- are you confused enough by the course of the thread?

Some folks cliam they do throws or chin-na with their wing chun training when the timing or necessity is there. Wing chun is opportunistic and the tool box is large.

Throws for instance involve manipulation of balance and good wing chun training involves control and manipulation of balance. Different styles- aikido, judo etc have their own approach to balance: ditto for for wrestling, football etc..

Similarly a wing chun person with good structure, balance and mobility themselves can upend a person when the opportunity is there and it is the optimum alternative as opposed to striking.
The third form has some motions that can be sharpened for this purpose.

On cum na..the situation has its parallels-the tool box for joint or cavity control is also extensive..
variations and applications of lop sao, jip sao, and other two handed combinations- dai bong with lop, lop and gum are few that come to mind..even the hand closing after huen at the end of each section of forms together with other motions can be used for seizing, controlling and breaking.

No easy answers.

Good luck with your training.Ignore the noise and the put downs.

joy chaudhuri

[Frost]

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1104096]No Joy, what is a waste of time is the condescending attitude which you are portraying here.

Why it is a waste of time is because the general public already knows you are full of hot air when you state that properly trained wing chun personnel are adept at chin na, throws and other grappling and ground related arts.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Don't waste your time or mine.

so does that mean you are not here to actually debate anything....just made statements that when challanged you cant be bothered to support.....if thats the case then why bother.....

[CFT]

What argument? I am asking you to explain the detail of an exchange with an unnamed wing chun sifu where he seemed to indicate that chin na techniques were not in wing chun but were in kung fu.

You started acting weird, and refused to answer, and instead are making up a bunch of stuff to do with arguments.

What did the guy mean?Is it that difficult to understand? Wing Chun is a form of Chinese kung fu. Chinese kung fu has chin na. Ergo Wing Chun has chin na.

Maybe my inference is too simplistic?

[Graham H]

kowloonboy- are you confused enough by the course of the thread?

Some folks cliam they do throws or chin-na with their wing chun training when the timing or necessity is there. Wing chun is opportunistic and the tool box is large.

Throws for instance involve manipulation of balance and good wing chun training involves control and manipulation of balance. Different styles- aikido, judo etc have their own approach to balance: ditto for for wrestling, football etc..

Similarly a wing chun person with good structure, balance and mobility themselves can upend a person when the opportunity is there and it is the optimum alternative as opposed to striking.
The third form has some motions that can be sharpened for this purpose.

On cum na..the situation has its parallels-the tool box for joint or cavity control is also extensive..
variations and applications of lop sao, jip sao, and other two handed combinations- dai bong with lop, lop and gum are few that come to mind..even the hand closing after huen at the end of each section of forms together with other motions can be used for seizing, controlling and breaking.

No easy answers.

Good luck with your training.Ignore the noise and the put downs.

joy chaudhuri
______________



What is Jip Sau??? :confused:

GH

[CFT]

What is Jip Sau??? :confused:I think it is that jut over tan repeated 3 times in Chum Kiu, after the double lan sau turns.

My old school used to teach it as fook/jum over tan rather than jut over tan.

[duende]

lets talk about each point on its merit, not if its kung fu, karate, silat or effin badmington.

Glennr

here here!

FWIW... I'd say the wooden dummy form is chock full of joint locks, grapples, sweeps, throws and what have you.

Does this consummate Wing Chun as a grappling art? Imo no. As ultimately I would not consider grappling, chin na, or cum la the primary focus or over-all combat strategy. But instead simply just a means to end and inherent part of WC's bridging methods and techniques.

[Graham H]

I think it is that jut over tan repeated 3 times in Chum Kiu, after the double lan sau turns.

My old school used to teach it as fook/jum over tan rather than jut over tan.

That doesn't tell me much. What is it for???

GH

[Graham H]

FWIW... I'd say the wooden dummy form is chock full of joint locks, grapples, sweeps, throws and what have you.
.

Is it really??? Where???

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Wow! What a crazy thread!?

I see everybody comparing what we would refer to as cum la (seizing and taking) methods like they're supposed to be rolling on the floor with eachother or something (?) or competing 'on the mats' with it!

It's simple. Yes ALL Wing Chun has this 'manipulation' of joints for contrilling and throwing, as I tried to share a little with my video link (which nobody commented on either! :eek:) And it's beginning stages are found in our simple Lapsau drills.

From personal experience, if you have little or no weaponry, especially pole practise, then your manipulation methods could 'originate' from anywhere. Yes, this is 'cross training' already or 'adding' various aikido/judo/mma ideas to your WCK, which is great in many ways, but that's NOT my WCK method.

I transfer my whole pole form into cum la methods and takedowns, because that's what it gives you ;) and I would say THAT is a distinctive Wing Chun method.

[Graham H]

It's simple. Yes ALL Wing Chun has this 'manipulation' of joints for contrilling and throwing,


No it doesn't!!!

GH

[LSWCTN1]

No it doesn't!!!

GH

so you dont use a pressing pak to keep someones elbow controlled from a slight angle?

to me, thats a manipulation of the jointfor controlling, no?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1104100]

so does that mean you are not here to actually debate anything....just made statements that when challanged you cant be bothered to support.....if thats the case then why bother.....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Debate? No. Exchange info on wing chun in civil fashion -yes. Discuss MMA?? there is a separate forum for that.I have no problem with MMA but wing chun is my main interest.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

I posted: It's simple. Yes ALL Wing Chun has this 'manipulation' of joints for controlling and throwing,


No it doesn't!!!

GH

Are you saying that you don't do lapsau drills G? Takedowns? Or are you referring to other lineages?

[GlennR]

No it doesn't!!!

GH



God.... i agree with Graham

The apocalypse must be upon us!

[GlennR]

Wow! What a crazy thread!?

I see everybody comparing what we would refer to as cum la (seizing and taking) methods like they're supposed to be rolling on the floor with eachother or something (?) or competing 'on the mats' with it!

It's simple. Yes ALL Wing Chun has this 'manipulation' of joints for contrilling and throwing, as I tried to share a little with my video link (which nobody commented on either! :eek:) And it's beginning stages are found in our simple Lapsau drills.

From personal experience, if you have little or no weaponry, especially pole practise, then your manipulation methods could 'originate' from anywhere. Yes, this is 'cross training' already or 'adding' various aikido/judo/mma ideas to your WCK, which is great in many ways, but that's NOT my WCK method.

I transfer my whole pole form into cum la methods and takedowns, because that's what it gives you ;) and I would say THAT is a distinctive Wing Chun method.

No, ALL WC doesnt
The occasional opportunistic lock might happen to someone that practises looking for them but really......
Pole into takedowns??
Do tell

GlennR

[Wayfaring]

Wow! What a crazy thread!?

I see everybody comparing what we would refer to as cum la (seizing and taking) methods like they're supposed to be rolling on the floor with eachother or something (?) or competing 'on the mats' with it!

Misinformation about grappling arts is a main source of the problem here in this thread.

While there are plenty of manipulation techniques within WCK, the primary goal is to control your opponent without being attached. Cum la (seizing / taking) and Cum na (capture / control) both have a primary goal of attaching, and turning that attachment into an advantage. You can't have two primary goals at the same time.

Grappling arts, such as BJJ, Sambo, Judo, and various forms of wrestling - freestyle, folkstyle, greco, catch all share those primary goals that cum la/na do. Wing chun does not.

What you practice and focus on is where your skills develop. Yet so many are basked in sheer delusion that they can't recognize that very simple fact.



It's simple. Yes ALL Wing Chun has this 'manipulation' of joints for contrilling and throwing, as I tried to share a little with my video link (which nobody commented on either! :eek:) And it's beginning stages are found in our simple Lapsau drills.

Delusion. Lap sau drills are very far from any effective grappling techniques. That only works on the unskilled.



From personal experience, if you have little or no weaponry, especially pole practise, then your manipulation methods could 'originate' from anywhere. Yes, this is 'cross training' already or 'adding' various aikido/judo/mma ideas to your WCK, which is great in many ways, but that's NOT my WCK method.

I transfer my whole pole form into cum la methods and takedowns, because that's what it gives you ;) and I would say THAT is a distinctive Wing Chun method.
Again, delusion. Practicing the pole adds little to nothing to effective grappling skills. Except maybe grip strength, which is a far stretch.

[Wayfaring]

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Some folks cliam they do throws or chin-na with their wing chun training when the timing or necessity is there. Wing chun is opportunistic and the tool box is large.

Throws for instance involve manipulation of balance and good wing chun training involves control and manipulation of balance. Different styles- aikido, judo etc have their own approach to balance: ditto for for wrestling, football etc..

Similarly a wing chun person with good structure, balance and mobility themselves can upend a person when the opportunity is there and it is the optimum alternative as opposed to striking.
The third form has some motions that can be sharpened for this purpose.

While this is true it is a far cry from skill in these areas. As a simple test of this fact, trot your class on across the campus to the ASU wrestlers practice. See how many of those individuals you can manipulate balance on and upend.


On cum na..the situation has its parallels-the tool box for joint or cavity control is also extensive..
variations and applications of lop sao, jip sao, and other two handed combinations- dai bong with lop, lop and gum are few that come to mind..even the hand closing after huen at the end of each section of forms together with other motions can be used for seizing, controlling and breaking.

Grasping at straws - no pun intended. "Can be used" and "developed into an effective skillset" are worlds apart.


Good luck with your training.Ignore the noise and the put downs.

joy chaudhuri

Ignoring the air of superiority and refusal to engage in meaningful exchanges.

[Wayfaring]

here here!

FWIW... I'd say the wooden dummy form is chock full of joint locks, grapples, sweeps, throws and what have you.

WCK has contact on the bridge. These elements have the effect of the disruption or interruption of balance rather than the end goal of grappling to a takedown, choke or joint lock that can cause permanent damage. In a similar fashion a boxer's jab that is well executed disrupts an opponents rythym and timing and opens a door for the cross.


Does this consummate Wing Chun as a grappling art? Imo no. As ultimately I would not consider grappling, chin na, or cum la the primary focus or over-all combat strategy. But instead simply just a means to end and inherent part of WC's bridging methods and techniques.
Agreed. Manipulation of the bridge to secondarily manipulate the center of gravity to obtain an advantageous facing and position to strike.

Not at all grappling, chin na, cum la.

[Wayfaring]

so you dont use a pressing pak to keep someones elbow controlled from a slight angle?

yes, of course.


to me, thats a manipulation of the jointfor controlling, no?
There is a distinction which I describe in other posts.

[Wayfaring]

[QUOTE=Frost;1104143]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Debate? No. Exchange info on wing chun in civil fashion -yes. Discuss MMA?? there is a separate forum for that.I have no problem with MMA but wing chun is my main interest.

joy chaudhuri



Back in the 1960′s and 70′s, in addition to teaching Wing Chun for self-defense, Grandmaster Ho [Kam Ming] also trained professional Wing Chun fighters. His full contact Wing Chun teams fought in martial arts tournaments throughout southeast Asia and they had achieved considerable recognition.

From http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.HoKamMing

Quite a MMA coach there, was Ho Kam Ming.

Too bad his students didn't pick any of that up.

[Graham H]

so you dont use a pressing pak to keep someones elbow controlled from a slight angle?

to me, thats a manipulation of the jointfor controlling, no?

Pressing Pak??? WTF is that? :eek::confused:

GH

[Graham H]

I posted: It's simple. Yes ALL Wing Chun has this 'manipulation' of joints for controlling and throwing,



Are you saying that you don't do lapsau drills G? Takedowns? Or are you referring to other lineages?

Of course I do lap sau drills and there are no takedowns in it!! Lap Sau is for improving the togetherness of Bong/Wu, the rotation of the elbow for bong sau and the punch (tan Sau), the correct rotation of the body and placement of elbow, the abilty to change from one side to the other fluently using the following actions:

1. jut sau from man sau
2. jut sau from bong sau
3. from a punch (wu sau)
4. from cheun sau
5. from inside pak sau and outside pak sau

we then go on to add the "cutting your opponents way" step with simultaneous jut sau and punch and also just a punch (jum sau). All this with actions and responses with the correct co-operation of two training partner for correcting errors.

and also (FWIW) this action in chum kiu is not an arm break or lock!! There is no time in fighting for stupid ideas like that. These actions are a combination of pak/jut sau with a punch (tan Sau) and they are used for clearing the way for punching which allows us to find the most simple, efficient and direct path to your oppoent which is what the whole form teaches you. Ving Tsun is about economy. If you want arm breaks, locks, takedowns and things then FO to MMA!! ;)

GH

[Graham H]

BTW if anybody thinks they can catch my arm and break it using "jip sau" then please come and try. These things only work in classrooms and not on an opponent that is trying to tear your head from your shoulders!!!

GH

[LoneTiger108]

No, ALL WC doesnt
The occasional opportunistic lock might happen to someone that practises looking for them but really......
Pole into takedowns??
Do tell

GlennR

Interested now? Then why haven't you asked your Sifu about how he teaches the pole?? I'm sure you really don't want me to share... ;)


Delusion. Lap sau drills are very far from any effective grappling techniques. That only works on the unskilled.

Wrong imho. The commonly 'seen' lapsau drill is the tip of the iceberg fme. If you think that's all there is to lapsau it indicates to me that your overall experience of Wing Chun may be unfulfilled. Lapsau is the beginning of ALL joint locks and manipulations because it trains your seizing methods. You can't manipulate joints without catching the hand/arm/neck first!


Again, delusion. Practicing the pole adds little to nothing to effective grappling skills. Except maybe grip strength, which is a far stretch.

And again, you know this to be fact because you are skilled in Wing Chun pole methods? And was I talking of 'grappling'? No. Throwing and Takedowns I consider Wing Chun 101, not grappling the clothes/gi training. There are better methods to train that like lapsau! ;)

Now you have my attention, what pole do you train?

[k gledhill]

When guys try to see 'all things' in VT, it tells me they are missing more than they can find ;)

[LoneTiger108]

... also (FWIW) this action in chum kiu is not an arm break or lock!! There is no time in fighting for stupid ideas like that. These actions are a combination of pak/jut sau with a punch (tan Sau) and they are used for clearing the way for punching which allows us to find the most simple, efficient and direct path to your oppoent which is what the whole form teaches you. Ving Tsun is about economy. If you want arm breaks, locks, takedowns and things then FO to MMA!! ;)

GH

Sheesh G! "Sifu says!" and all that jazz :D If that's how you view your CK I can't argue...

Guess the way I was taught was with an MMA mindset :confused: from a guy who has been learning Wing Chun (only!) since 1965!! :rolleyes:

[LoneTiger108]

When guys try to see 'all things' in VT, it tells me they are missing more than they can find ;)

FWIW There is no 'trying to see' on my part. It IS there :)

And I aint seeing 'all' things either dude. This is very specific. Chin La (Cum La) and throws.

And to be honest, when it comes to pole methods I am confident of what I have and I know it's very specialized and not so common in other families. Man, you wouldn't even recognize our form so how could you comment?? We don't just throw drills out there like Ip Man did :p

If you really want to know what I'm on about then all you need do is visit and bring your poles :D

[Graham H]

Sheesh G! "Sifu says!" and all that jazz :D If that's how you view your CK I can't argue...

Guess the way I was taught was with an MMA mindset :confused: from a guy who has been learning Wing Chun (only!) since 1965!! :rolleyes:

Spencer

The fact that Lee Shing and WSL have totally different versions of Kung Fu raises certain questions!! ;)

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer

The fact that Lee Shing and WSL have totally different versions of Kung Fu raises certain questions!! ;)

GH

Yes it does. For both families ;)

WSL started a little after Lee Shing according to my research and they would have met eachother on numerous occasions. They were even pictured together! You should understand that Lee Shing was considered pretty good at Wing Chun before he was introduced to Ip Man through Jiu Wan, especially the weaponry of Wing Chun :) as he exchanged with Lok Yiu too.

Who did WSL train the pole with exactly?

You see what I mean...

[Wayfaring]

Wrong imho. The commonly 'seen' lapsau drill is the tip of the iceberg fme. If you think that's all there is to lapsau it indicates to me that your overall experience of Wing Chun may be unfulfilled. Lapsau is the beginning of ALL joint locks and manipulations because it trains your seizing methods. You can't manipulate joints without catching the hand/arm/neck first!


Of course a person with a deluded mindset will think they are not wrong. If they really were looking at things objectively they wouldn't have the mindset.

"Lapsau is the beginning of ALL joint locks and manipulations"???????? :eek::eek:

Step away from the bong / lap drills and listen to yourself, man.

What about all those experts in grappling arts that have never done a bong/lap drill? And if that is true, why is it that wing chun competitors aren't tearing up the judo competition circuit? Or wrestling? Are you saying they could but they just don't because they do "wing chun" and aren't interested in that?

Laughable. I remember at our WCK school we had a BJJ purple belt (semi-legit) train with us for a period of time. Everybody wanted to play around sparring. They didn't do such a great job of being able to joint lock and manipulate him. On the other hand he seemed to be able to easily joint lock everyone else.

Maybe they all just needed some more time doing bong / lap drills. ;)

[LoneTiger108]

Of course a person with a deluded mindset will think they are not wrong. If they really were looking at things objectively they wouldn't have the mindset.

"Lapsau is the beginning of ALL joint locks and manipulations"???????? :eek::eek:

Step away from the bong / lap drills and listen to yourself, man.

Whoops! Definitely should have included "for Wing Chun students" in that sentence shouldn't I?

And what's wiv all the BJJ strutting dude?? Even reading your 'bong/lap' comment shows me that's all you think lapsau is :rolleyes: That's fine for beginners, but I'm talking of delving into what lapsau means to people who have been in Wing Chun for a time. We don't all just stand there copying the Master hoping we get the 'look' right :D some of us take our training just as seriously as any BJJ/MMA guys, if not more.

As for being deluded, I don't think I am. But I may need to get a second opinion on that one! :D

[ShortBridge]

This thread has frustrated me, in part because Chin Na in Wing Chun is of special interest to me and it would be nice to have a discussion on it instead of the same tired MMA is the only true path dust up.

I think part of the reason we are arguing is that for some people "chin na" means "Seize and control" and for others it means competition submission wrestling.

To me, lap sao is chin na simply because it is an act of seizing, but no, I don't think that's got any relation to judo. I like judo, but I don't claim to know it because of anything in wing chun.

There are other such techniques in wing chun and other southern short bridge systems, including white crane, but they still don't in my experience relate to BJJ or any other type of ground fighting. It's a different thing.

Now, if you want to argue that my style doesn't work and I'm wasting my time, I'm not interested. It's really tiresome and no one ever changes their mind.

[YouKnowWho]

it would be nice to have a discussion on it instead of the same tired MMA is the only true path dust up.

If I want to learn

- chain punches, I'll go to WC.
- chain kicks, I'll go to longfist.
- Chin Na, I'll go to eagle claw.
- throw, I'll go to SC.

Every style has their own speciality. There are only about 40 to 50 different Chin Na skills. If a WC guy just spend few hours to find all those Chin Na skills (it's not hard to find online), link those moves into a new 2 men form like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LVjwPGhQg

and start to teach your students as a new WC form. This way the next WC generation will not have to argue about this issue. To me, that will be a great contributation to the WC system. As far as the throw, it may be difficult to create a new form to cover more than 400 throws.

[LoneTiger108]

If a WC guy just spend few hours to find all those Chin Na skills (it's not hard to find online), link those moves into a new 2 men form like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LVjwPGhQg

and start to teach your students as a new WC form. This way the next WC generation will not have to argue about this issue.

Even if this was 'already there' we would all still be arguing with MMA peeps! :D;)

Just as a little test; try using your first point of the pole form (side body thrust) while you are holding someones arm. Which sides work best against eachother? Where is the best place on the arm to seize and hold? What stepping do you require? What stance works best? What happens when you get it right?

If you train the pole you will already have your answers. No need for other systems because it's there in Wing Chun! Although I understand where you're coming from and have respect for all other chinese martial arts. WHEN they're taught and practised well!! ;)

[YouKnowWho]

Just as a little test; try using your first point of the pole form (side body thrust) while you are holding someones arm. Which sides work best against eachother? Where is the best place on the arm to seize and hold? What stepping do you require? What stance works best? What happens when you get it right?
I think I know what you are talking about here. The first thing that you teach someone a shoulder lock is to show him how to control the elbow and wrist. Some people will hold his opponent's elbow with his "tiger mouth" facing to himself (most mantis guys will do this). You just have to tell him that he should hold his opponent's arm just like holding a "pole" with both "tiger mouths" facing to his opponent.

When you apply a shoulder lock, your opponent will try to bend his elbow to resist it, you will then need to change your shoulder lock into an elbow lock. I'm not sure that elbow lock is also in the pole form training.

[ShortBridge]

If I want to learn

- chain punches, I'll go to WC.
- chain kicks, I'll go to longfist.
- Chin Na, I'll go to eagle claw.
- throw, I'll go to SC.

Every style has their own speciality. There are only about 40 to 50 different Chin Na skills. If a WC guy just spend few hours to find all those Chin Na skills (it's not hard to find online), link those moves into a new 2 men form like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LVjwPGhQg

and start to teach your students as a new WC form. This way the next WC generation will not have to argue about this issue. To me, that will be a great contributation to the WC system. As far as the throw, it may be difficult to create a new form to cover more than 400 throws.

I more or less agree with this. I have broader notion of what constitutes wing chun than your posts suggest that you might, but I follow what you're saying. I've never trained with Eagle Claw folk, I met some once, but they were of the performance-for-judges persuasion, so my Chin Na has come from other places.

As for the rest, I'm happy with the kicks that are in Wing Chun already. I think "chain punching" is a small part of what I value about Wing Chun. I'm not sure what SC is. I think disrupting someone's ground/center and putting them off-balance or down is a very natural part of wing chun and it's something that I practice all the time without looking too far outside of the system.

Ground fighting is something different. I think that (get ready) if you want to develop skills in you should spend some time doing so at a good source, BJJ, Sambo, etc. I don't have plans to do so personally at the moment and I wouldn't try to make it part of any wing chun program that I was involved in, though.

[Wayfaring]

Whoops! Definitely should have included "for Wing Chun students" in that sentence shouldn't I?


That certainly is a good portion of the problem. There is one standard for measuring skill "for Wing Chun students" that excludes measuring against anything else outside in the real world.

[Wayfaring]

And what's wiv all the BJJ strutting dude??

No strutting - just relating a personal experience training in a WCK school.


Even reading your 'bong/lap' comment shows me that's all you think lapsau is :rolleyes: That's fine for beginners, but I'm talking of delving into what lapsau means to people who have been in Wing Chun for a time. We don't all just stand there copying the Master hoping we get the 'look' right :D some of us take our training just as seriously as any BJJ/MMA guys, if not more.

What lap sau means to people who have been in Wing Chun a long time still is not chin na and / or throws, or anything related to skilled capture/control/joint lock submission.

Read my distinction in intent on these posts to understand the difference.

[Wayfaring]

This thread has frustrated me, in part because Chin Na in Wing Chun is of special interest to me and it would be nice to have a discussion on it instead of the same tired MMA is the only true path dust up.

IMO this thread is frustrating you because you want to believe that somehow training a few wing chun motions is going to make you some bad@$$ at joint locks and takedowns.

And that is far removed from reality.


I think part of the reason we are arguing is that for some people "chin na" means "Seize and control" and for others it means competition submission wrestling.

chin na doesn't mean competition submission wrestling to me. However, a competitive submission wrestler would be the perfect person to practice those moves on to evaluate the true level of skill.


Now, if you want to argue that my style doesn't work and I'm wasting my time, I'm not interested. It's really tiresome and no one ever changes their mind.
It's not the style that doesn't work. It's people and their mindsets and methods of training them.

[Wayfaring]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LVjwPGhQg

and start to teach your students as a new WC form. This way the next WC generation will not have to argue about this issue. To me, that will be a great contributation to the WC system. As far as the throw, it may be difficult to create a new form to cover more than 400 throws.

What those guys are doing is not competant takedowns, throws, or joint locks.

[ShortBridge]

IMO this thread is frustrating you because you want to believe that somehow training a few wing chun motions is going to make you some bad@$$ at joint locks and takedowns.

And that is far removed from reality.

chin na doesn't mean competition submission wrestling to me. However, a competitive submission wrestler would be the perfect person to practice those moves on to evaluate the true level of skill.


It's not the style that doesn't work. It's people and their mindsets and methods of training them.

You don't know anything about me.

[Wayfaring]

You don't know anything about me.

Awesome response. I loved the way you considered chin na and how to test it to obtain an objective measurement of skill.

[ShortBridge]

Awesome response. I loved the way you considered chin na and how to test it to obtain an objective measurement of skill.

Quote me saying anything like that. Go back through my 50x posts and quote me using the word "badass" to describe anything that I do.

Clearly you had some bad experience with wing chun, moved on and found something that works better for you. I'm fine with that. Somehow you're not okay with the fact that we didn't all follow your example.

You walked away from Wing Chun. Great, now all that's left is to walk away from the wing chun forums and you'll be free. Go free yourself. I'm researching the "ignore list" function so that I don't have to be your therapist anymore.

[ShortBridge]

I'm researching the "ignore list" function so that I don't have to be your therapist anymore.

Success! Now on to the guy who hates women!

[anerlich]

As for being deluded, I don't think I am. But I may need to get a second opinion on that one!

You wouldn't want to ask me for that second opinion.

My first instructor, David Crook, (training since '63! Beat yah, Spencer!) was one of VERY few Kung Fu people I have met who I regard as competent at Chinese seizing and joint locking techniques.

He's probably up there in Chi Sao, lap sau drills. etc. with anyone I've touched hands with, but his joint locking techs, nerve point manipulation etc. came mostly from the Northern Sil Lum he trained. He and his students are very competent with this stuff, especially using the point attacks to set up the joint manipulations. That stuff HURTS.

That said, David had a black belt in JJJ and Nidan in Goju Ryu before he took up Chinese styles.

BJJ/MMA have little in common with this stuff IMO. Personally i have found the former to be much easier to learn to use effectively.

[Wayfaring]

You wouldn't want to ask me for that second opinion.

My first instructor, David Crook, (training since '63! Beat yah, Spencer!) was one of VERY few Kung Fu people I have met who I regard as competent at Chinese seizing and joint locking techniques.

He's probably up there in Chi Sao, lap sau drills. etc. with anyone I've touched hands with, but his joint locking techs, nerve point manipulation etc. came mostly from the Northern Sil Lum he trained. He and his students are very competent with this stuff, especially using the point attacks to set up the joint manipulations. That stuff HURTS.

That said, David had a black belt in JJJ and Nidan in Goju Ryu before he took up Chinese styles.

BJJ/MMA have little in common with this stuff IMO. Personally i have found the former to be much easier to learn to use effectively.

Wally Jay, who just died recently, was another in that category. BTW I agree with you on the ease of use - the delivery system is much more clear to deal with.

[Wayfaring]

Success! Now on to the guy who hates women!

Awesome. So any other ostrich types on the forum feel the burning need to research the "ignore" functionality to better hide their heads in the sand?

[GlennR]

Interested now? Then why haven't you asked your Sifu about how he teaches the pole?? I'm sure you really don't want me to share... ;)



Wrong imho. The commonly 'seen' lapsau drill is the tip of the iceberg fme. If you think that's all there is to lapsau it indicates to me that your overall experience of Wing Chun may be unfulfilled. Lapsau is the beginning of ALL joint locks and manipulations because it trains your seizing methods. You can't manipulate joints without catching the hand/arm/neck first!



And again, you know this to be fact because you are skilled in Wing Chun pole methods? And was I talking of 'grappling'? No. Throwing and Takedowns I consider Wing Chun 101, not grappling the clothes/gi training. There are better methods to train that like lapsau! ;)

Now you have my attention, what pole do you train?



Vague, non-answering nonsense Spencer.
Seriously, you lunge back to "well in our form" and "ask your Sifu" so often it makes peoples heads spin.

Youre wrong. Simple as that.

But if youd like to educate us, tell me what massive iceberg lurks below the surface of your all-range encompassing Lap-sau?

And as far as the pole form goes, please dont tell me its the stance that forms your connection with grappling and throws

[Wayfaring]

When guys try to see 'all things' in VT, it tells me they are missing more than they can find ;)

VTFU, mate. As they say on the UG.

[k gledhill]

VTFU, mate. As they say on the UG.


look past all the abstractions and we see a clear image...look hard and you MAY even see Spencer grappling his pole...:D

the image below is hidden 3D with a fighter plane , focus past the surface ...

[anerlich]

look hard and you MAY even see Spencer grappling his pole...

That can be interpreted several ways, and some of the related mental pictures I would rather not have seen ... :o

[duende]

WCK has contact on the bridge. These elements have the effect of the disruption or interruption of balance rather than the end goal of grappling to a takedown, choke or joint lock that can cause permanent damage. In a similar fashion a boxer's jab that is well executed disrupts an opponents rythym and timing and opens a door for the cross.

Agreed. Manipulation of the bridge to secondarily manipulate the center of gravity to obtain an advantageous facing and position to strike.

Not at all grappling, chin na, cum la.

Nice one Dave.

I think people are arguing over two different points here.

1. whether or not WC has grapples, locks, and throw techniques in the system or forms

2. whether or not WC can be considered a grappling art. Meaning the end goal is submission and take down.

In my opinion the answer is yes to number 1 and no to number 2.

Here's a YM example of what I was referring to in my initial post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEPpxcluFTw

Show's a WSL Sifu using a simple stretched-out arm lock to throw his opponent. From straight out of the YM Wooden Dummy first section.

Took me about two seconds to find doing a simple net search.


In our system, most sections of the wooden dummy end with an arm break, joint lock, or grapple of some fashion.

But we all do WC don't we...? So I didn't feel the need to differentiate between lineages to prove my point. Unlike some of the folks here.

FWIW... I've had the pleasure of sharing some of our locks, and grappling hold techniques with wrestlers over the years. On those occasions, not only did they have an open mind, but showed a genuine interest and we had a real sharing of marital knowledge.

Imagine that... no dogmatism.. no small mindedness.

Some of you come off as so insecure here, that it's no wonder why WC gets made fun of.

This whole thread reminds me of the WC/stand-up grappling thread Terence posted awhile back.

And I agreed with Terrance back then, because on this occasion he was dead on right.


WC uses momentary control to offset timing, balance, and thereby diminish power generation of your opponent. That's a major part of WC101

Go ahead... say I'm not doing WC. It will really hurt my feelings. ;) :p

[YouKnowWho]

try using your first point of the pole form (side body thrust) while you are holding someones arm.

In our system, most sections of the wooden dummy end with an arm break, joint lock, or grapple of some fashion.

If you can take all the Chin Na and throws out of the "wooden dummy training" and "pole form" and create a set of drills (or link into one long form), your name will be recorded in the WC history for the next 5,000 years. It will be a glory task to accomplish.

[LoneTiger108]

I think I know what you are talking about here...

When you apply a shoulder lock, your opponent will try to bend his elbow to resist it, you will then need to change your shoulder lock into an elbow lock. I'm not sure that elbow lock is also in the pole form training.

I ask that if you're 'not sure' then how much pole training have you done exactly? I am sure what you describe is there. Part of our boon gwan. Tried and tested.

[LoneTiger108]

If you can take all the Chin Na and throws out of the "wooden dummy training" and "pole form" and create a set of drills (or link into one long form), your name will be recorded in the WC history for the next 5,000 years. It will be a glory task to accomplish.

Really? I don't think so. And besides, the idea has already been passed down by my own Sigung so it is HE who should be represented in this history book of yours ;) But to create ANOTHER form??!! Now that WOULD be silly imho

[LoneTiger108]

My first instructor, David Crook, (training since '63! Beat yah, Spencer!)

Didn't realize it was some sort of comeptition! Trained in Wing Chun since '63 dude? It doesn't look like it. Sounds like a JJJ/Karate man who wanted more flow :D


Youre wrong. Simple as that.

Maybe. For what you have in your own head and how you view VT, I will always be wrong :) And I'm fine with that too. One day, if you could ever be bothered to look outside your own well, we may meet and have a good laugh about our differences :D

[Graham H]

Fairplay Spencer. Your ideas of Ving Tsun get more and more bizarre as time goes on. :D:D:D

GH

[Graham H]

Really? I don't think so. And besides, the "wrong" idea has already been passed down by my own Sigung so it is HE who should be represented in this history book of yours ;) But to create ANOTHER form??!! Now that WOULD be silly imho

....would be more correct!!! ;)

GH

[k gledhill]

FWIW There is no 'trying to see' on my part. It IS there :)

And I aint seeing 'all' things either dude. This is very specific. Chin La (Cum La) and throws.

And to be honest, when it comes to pole methods I am confident of what I have and I know it's very specialized and not so common in other families. Man, you wouldn't even recognize our form so how could you comment?? We don't just throw drills out there like Ip Man did :p

If you really want to know what I'm on about then all you need do is visit and bring your poles :D

Why is it 'hidden' in the pole form ?

Whats hidden in the knife form ?

Bil gee contains techniques to break out of
Attempts to grapple our arms. Things people do when they cant stop our arms from attacking with fists.

Lap sao drills arent grappling , why train something your not trying to do in a lightning fast striking attack ?

When we do LOP controlling hand it is to regain an attacking angle by pivoting a 290 lb guy like spinning a hanging heavy bag on its axis. So they lose facing.....even if their extended arm stops our advance....not to submit a guy 290 lbs .with lop sao...

If you dont believe me try it.

[ShortBridge]

Lap sao drills arent grappling...

...not to submit a guy 290 lbs .with lop sao...



No argument from me. Lap Sao is not grappling and it certainly isn't a submission technique, but I do think that it falls in the category of things that the Chinese would call Chin Na. Maybe we're arguing semantics, which in the end isn't important.

[duende]

No argument from me. Lap Sao is not grappling and it certainly isn't a submission technique, but I do think that it falls in the category of things that the Chinese would call Chin Na. Maybe we're arguing semantics, which in the end isn't important.

+1

Keep it simple, don't try and make it more than it is.

[LoneTiger108]

Why is it 'hidden' in the pole form ?

Whats hidden in the knife form ?

Why do you think it's 'hidden'?? I didn't say that did I?


Lap sao drills arent grappling , why train something your not trying to do in a lightning fast striking attack ?

Re-read what I have written. I agree 100% Lapsau isn't grappling. :D


When we do LOP controlling hand it is to regain an attacking angle by pivoting a 290 lb guy like spinning a hanging heavy bag on its axis. So they lose facing.....even if their extended arm stops our advance....not to submit a guy 290 lbs .with lop sao...

If you dont believe me try it.

Can't comment on your LOP, I've been talking about Cum La and the fact Lapsau is the tip of that kinda iceberg (for Wing Chun peeps!) What you're talking of is the simple drill, which is all good dude, but it's where this drill goes! How we advance ourselves with the drill as a 'key'. What the drill is actually 'teaching' us advanced/elder practitioners. Don't be a fool :o

Sure it's harder to control and manipulate the bigger guy, I really do understand that! If you haven't been able to do it then that speaks for itself. I'm only 5ft 7 and 140lbs and I've moved my fair share of 'beasts' ;) :D And they have shut me down too before I could do anything!!

Manipulation, seizing and taking methods are a timing game. And if you get it right (which IS possible!!) then you yourself will see what happens ;)

[k gledhill]

The difference between lop and chi na
Is a thought process.
We use levers to gain angles guided by tactics.
Not to put guys into submission joint locks.
We hit our way directly out of arm grappling.
If you do grab my arm you cant hit me with that hand.
if you train to grab arms out of the air then you're in for a bad time with a feinter or vt line attack.

We use lop to turn guys when their extended arm interupts our entry and jut is stopped by a 290 lb arm that isnt complying.

With a long enough lever you can move the world.

[LoneTiger108]

With a long enough lever you can move the world.

And of course the long pole doesn't use leverage at all Kev? ;) We just poke people with it :o

[k gledhill]

And of course the long pole doesn't use leverage at all Kev? ;) We just poke people with it :o


are you trying to make a case for it being secret grappling techniques ? :D

we use ballistic force = sharp 'ging' slapping force, tranfering energy sharply to "displace and take the space" ....Dan Guan !

[faxiapreta]

If your style's technique look like the clips below, it has chi na and throws.

If if it doesn't have techniques that look like those, for all intents and purposes, it doesn't have chi na and throws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o63lZQnvsKA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1or4TVUJF2g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAssD5SBAgQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5440TDSn1E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G9loymv4Xg

[k gledhill]

If your style's technique look like the clips below, it has chi na and throws.

If if it doesn't have techniques that look like those, for all intents and purposes, it doesn't have chi na and throws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o63lZQnvsKA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1or4TVUJF2g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAssD5SBAgQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5440TDSn1E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G9loymv4Xg

Mine has no chi-na and throws :D love the first clip...

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=Maybe. For what you have in your own head and how you view VT, I will always be wrong :) And I'm fine with that too. One day, if you could ever be bothered to look outside your own well, we may meet and have a good laugh about our differences :D[/QUOTE]


Youre trying to label me Spencer , maybe ask me why ive come to the conclusions ive come to rather than make out im a knuckle headed kickboxer ;)

Ive done 2 lineages over a lot of years now (god im getting old) trained with TWC, WSL and other mainland lineages, and every time ive seen anyone claim "grappling-chin na-locks" etc is part of the WC forms i see them completeley undone by the people that actually train those things. The BJJ, JJJJ, Wrestlers etc.

Dont you find it a bit condascending to these guys, that put all the blood sweat and tears into their style, only to be told by a WC guy that he has these techniques in his forms and chi-sao????

Spar with them..... youll get murdered trying grappling techniques cobbled up from the pole form.

I admire your passion for WC Spencer,i really do, but it is NOT the be all and end all martial art style.

And you know what, i might be in the UK later this year, we should have a beer and a laugh ;)

Lets get Graham along!!

GlennR

[Graham H]

Ny
Youre trying to label me Spencer , maybe ask me why ive come to the conclusions ive come to rather than make out im a knuckle headed kickboxer ;)

Ive done 2 lineages over a lot of years now (god im getting old) trained with TWC, WSL and other mainland lineages, and every time ive seen anyone claim "grappling-chin na-locks" etc is part of the WC forms i see them completeley undone by the people that actually train those things. The BJJ, JJJJ, Wrestlers etc.

Dont you find it a bit condascending to these guys, that put all the blood sweat and tears into their style, only to be told by a WC guy that he has these techniques in his forms and chi-sao????

Spar with them..... youll get murdered trying grappling techniques cobbled up from the pole form.

I admire your passion for WC Spencer,i really do, but it is NOT the be all and end all martial art style.

And you know what, i might be in the UK later this year, we should have a beer and a laugh ;)

Lets get Graham along!!

GlennR

Ahhhh you want a cuddle Glenn. Cutchy Cutchy coooo! LOL

[LoneTiger108]

If your style's technique look like the clips below, it has chi na and throws.

If if it doesn't have techniques that look like those, for all intents and purposes, it doesn't have chi na and throws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o63lZQnvsKA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1or4TVUJF2g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAssD5SBAgQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5440TDSn1E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G9loymv4Xg

You know what I find funny?? It's when people get the wrong end of the proverbial stick and start chest beating. Especially MMA guys :(


Dont you find it a bit condascending to these guys, that put all the blood sweat and tears into their style, only to be told by a WC guy that he has these techniques in his forms and chi-sao????

I find it even more condescending when MMA guys judge my own experience of Wing Chun, which involved much blood, sweat and tears, on the sh!t teaching that they have experienced (of Wing Chun maybe?)

Let me ask anyone to re-read over my comments and tell me when I have said that Wing Chun has submission holds like BJJ/wrestling?? I haven't.

Where have I mentioned the word 'grappling'?? I haven't.

THIS seems to be a mojor issue with guys who may be struggling to actually READ what I write! Now I aint saying MMA guys can't read!! I'm saying that you're reading what 'you like' and half the time start diverting our Wing Chun threads because of this. So, let's be clear...

Chin Na (Cumla in 'lazy' Cantonese!) describes seizing. It does not say 'what' you're seizing. It's a method used (at the beginning!) in conjunction with lapsau, which is describing the 'purpose' of a hand. Everyone here should know what 'lap' is I guess so I won't even go there.

This is why lapsau, for Wing Chun guys and girls, is the start of everything we do with regards to seizing and manipulating joints etc. If you have a lineage where the masters have been doctors or herbalists or TCM practitioners, then 9 times out of 10 you will have these elements in your training drills. AND they will be represented in the forms of the system.

FACT1: Leung Jan was such a TCM practitioner, even a 'Doctor' by todays standards, and it may be hard to take this one, FACT2: so was my own Sigung Lee Shing!

All I am saying here is that, yes, I have Cumla methods in what I have learnt, and I am free to express these ideas as I like. As I said earlier, there's mention of Cumla but as a method to seize 'anything'. I've even sat and discussed this with some excellent BJJ/Judo players so please don't think I have no respect for what these guys do coz I do!

So looking at all your clips I see this Cumla Wing Chun method being used. Now, HOW an individual uses this stuff is what I think you're getting at. The BJJ guys are doing this all day. I can't argue with that! They're skilled in reactive and proactive play and they can lock you up easily because of this. Doesn't seem to matter about size either, good crisp technique reins supreme.

Now, isn't THAT Wing Chun?

I get fed up with people, who may never have even practised Wing Chun for any serious length of time or with a reputable, proven teacher, come here and tell me that 'unless you do this you aint doing cum la'!

Grow up dude. Realize that Wing Chun isn't a 'kung fu' thing that's filled with cheap tricks to sell to the uninitiated, it's a Martial Art and a complete one at that. :) And dare I say, more 'complete' as a Martial Art than any competitive trend I have seen to this day.

We can all learn from eachother too, if you keep your eyes open you might well see that...

[Graham H]

Now I aint saying MMA guys can't read!!

Are you saying that they can read??? Wo! Really? :D


Everyone here should know what 'lap' is I guess so I won't even go there.

Why not? Go on, explain what lap sau is for!


seizing and manipulating joints etc..

I don't think so. My Teacher doesn't think so which means his Teacher wouldn't of thought so nor would his Teachers Teacher....have I arrived at Ip Man yet???.....oh yeah who was your Teacher taught by again??:confused:


FACT1: Leung Jan was such a TCM practitioner, even a 'Doctor' by todays standards, and it may be hard to take this one, FACT2: so was my own Sigung Lee Shing!

and?


All I am saying here is that, yes, I have Cumla methods in what I have learnt

Ok for your mainland Wing Chun but there is no cumla in Yip Man's Hong Kong Ving Tsun!!........who taught your Teacher again??? :D

Since I have moved on from the misinterpreted chi sau rubbish Wing Chun nobody has been able to lock my arms up. Only can happen if you are locked on each others arms which is wrong!......not likely to meet a well rounded wrestler down the pub on a Saturday night so I guess I'm safe. :D




I get fed up with people, who may never have even practised Wing Chun for any serious length of time or with a reputable, proven teacher, come here and tell me that 'unless you do this you aint doing cum la'!

I have been practicing Ving Tsun for nearly 15 years and I will tell you there isnt any!!! Wanna argument about it?? LOL


Realize that Wing Chun isn't a 'kung fu' thing that's filled with cheap tricks to sell to the uninitiated

So what are you saying then? Saying that there are things in pole training that aren't, using knives in SLT, flag waving and rattan ring BS tells me you are not on the right track mate! I wouldn't be practicing VT if there was because all defeats the main object IMHHHHHHHHHHHO.;)


We can all learn from eachother too, if you keep your eyes open you might well see that..


Why would I want to learn from you. I'd be doing another Martial Art if I did and I practice Ving Tsun (says Graham as he beats his chest......oh no thats only MMA guys)

Tarzan

[k gledhill]

Someone who is looking at Ving Tsun and has not spent enough time with a teacher, probably will not know enough footwork. He will not understand the mobility involved in Ving Tsun, the angles of attack, the kicks in all situations. He will therefore want to add kicks for all situations. He will therefore want to add something else to the style that he thinks is better for the sake of not knowing.

(Wong Shun Leung)

[Frost]

You know what I find funny?? It's when people get the wrong end of the proverbial stick and start chest beating. Especially MMA guys :(



I find it even more condescending when MMA guys judge my own experience of Wing Chun, which involved much blood, sweat and tears, on the sh!t teaching that they have experienced (of Wing Chun maybe?)

Let me ask anyone to re-read over my comments and tell me when I have said that Wing Chun has submission holds like BJJ/wrestling?? I haven't.

Where have I mentioned the word 'grappling'?? I haven't.

THIS seems to be a mojor issue with guys who may be struggling to actually READ what I write! Now I aint saying MMA guys can't read!! I'm saying that you're reading what 'you like' and half the time start diverting our Wing Chun threads because of this. So, let's be clear...

Chin Na (Cumla in 'lazy' Cantonese!) describes seizing. It does not say 'what' you're seizing. It's a method used (at the beginning!) in conjunction with lapsau, which is describing the 'purpose' of a hand. Everyone here should know what 'lap' is I guess so I won't even go there.

This is why lapsau, for Wing Chun guys and girls, is the start of everything we do with regards to seizing and manipulating joints etc. If you have a lineage where the masters have been doctors or herbalists or TCM practitioners, then 9 times out of 10 you will have these elements in your training drills. AND they will be represented in the forms of the system.

FACT1: Leung Jan was such a TCM practitioner, even a 'Doctor' by todays standards, and it may be hard to take this one, FACT2: so was my own Sigung Lee Shing!

All I am saying here is that, yes, I have Cumla methods in what I have learnt, and I am free to express these ideas as I like. As I said earlier, there's mention of Cumla but as a method to seize 'anything'. I've even sat and discussed this with some excellent BJJ/Judo players so please don't think I have no respect for what these guys do coz I do!

So looking at all your clips I see this Cumla Wing Chun method being used. Now, HOW an individual uses this stuff is what I think you're getting at. The BJJ guys are doing this all day. I can't argue with that! They're skilled in reactive and proactive play and they can lock you up easily because of this. Doesn't seem to matter about size either, good crisp technique reins supreme.

Now, isn't THAT Wing Chun?

I get fed up with people, who may never have even practised Wing Chun for any serious length of time or with a reputable, proven teacher, come here and tell me that 'unless you do this you aint doing cum la'!

Grow up dude. Realize that Wing Chun isn't a 'kung fu' thing that's filled with cheap tricks to sell to the uninitiated, it's a Martial Art and a complete one at that. :) And dare I say, more 'complete' as a Martial Art than any competitive trend I have seen to this day.

We can all learn from eachother too, if you keep your eyes open you might well see that...

to be fair it’s hard to judge someone when they write about how complete their art is, how great their teacher was and how good a fighting system it is yet you can’t find any clips of that lineage in action and the only thing you can find on the author films of him in his garden hitting the wooden dummy

you say it’s more complete than any competitive trend you see today...yet you admit it doesn’t have throws submissions or ground work like MMA (i.e. grappling that actually works) and the clips of chin na from wing chun you posted earlier...want to know why no one commentated on it.....it’s because its c^ap, whether they got it from the pole or not doesn’t change the fact its cr*p

[k gledhill]

if your VT looks like this, then you have added something that isnt VT....:D but thats not a bad thing at all. I just get a little irked when guys say its already there, just look deeper into your pole, turn chi-sao into wrestling, dirty clinching... :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etmI0OraeoQ&NR=1

[LoneTiger108]

Ok for your mainland Wing Chun but there is no cumla in Yip Man's Hong Kong Ving Tsun!!

Oh dear! There must be others here who do understand that Cumla is in ALL Wing Chun? HK/Mainland/Vietnamese etc


I have been practicing Ving Tsun for nearly 15 years and I will tell you there isnt any!!! Wanna argument about it?? LOL

I feel sorry for you dude :o and you're still such a young Wing Chun student! You've still got time :D


So what are you saying then? Saying that there are things in pole training that aren't, using knives in SLT, flag waving and rattan ring BS tells me you are not on the right track mate! I wouldn't be practicing VT if there was because all defeats the main object IMHHHHHHHHHHHO.;)

What this tells me is that you are just a bit ignorant to others mate ;) Your main objective could be screwed. Research more and come back to me when you have trained outside your own bubble. I have, especially recently! And I found more treasures in my European brothers...

[Vajramusti]

Oh dear! There must be others here who do understand that Cumla is in ALL Wing Chun?
(Spencer D)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure but I don't expect everyone to understand that.

joy

[LoneTiger108]

to be fair it’s hard to judge someone when they write about how complete their art is, how great their teacher was and how good a fighting system it is yet you can’t find any clips of that lineage in action and the only thing you can find on the author films of him in his garden hitting the wooden dummy

Okay. Good point! :) But answer me this...

"From the little wooden man I have shown, is it even 'familiar' to you?"

I would guess not to be honest, because what I have put out so far has never been shared with the public, like ever. And I took a risk actually putting the stuff out! :eek: Luckily it just spurred my own Sifu to do very similar things himself on Facebook, so we're all still talking.


you say it’s more complete than any competitive trend you see today...yet you admit it doesn’t have throws submissions or ground work like MMA (i.e. grappling that actually works) and the clips of chin na from wing chun you posted earlier...want to know why no one commentated on it.....it’s because its c^ap, whether they got it from the pole or not doesn’t change the fact its cr*p

Firstly, the clip I posted was of an Italian student of Austin Goh. I thought he was being quite inventive, and I can see the techs that are more 'Lee Shing' compared to others that he has simply added to his stuff from his experience. I can appreciate some things like that because I know how vast our tool bag is. Can you? No. You just think it's crap. But why exactly?

Secondly, I have and will never admit that we don't have 'throws, submissions or groundwork'. It all has specifics that need to be understood, That's what this whole debate was about for me. Going beyond our Lapsau to the Cumla methods is there. How most express it is totally personal because they simply have no pole training, which is a shame because all that's there too! Also more advanced Cumla uses pressure point knowledge that's not funny. First hand, I've heard big men squeal like girls :D

I may not have the same technique 'names' as a BJJ player, but I do have an array of options for that sort of encounter which may look similar, and I draw that knowledge from my own training experience in Wing Chun. I know most find that hard to believe, but why should I lie?

[LoneTiger108]

Oh dear! There must be others here who do understand that Cumla is in ALL Wing Chun?
(Spencer D)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure but I don't expect everyone to understand that.

joy

Joy I have little to no expectation of anything from anyone on here any more! :eek:

[Graham H]

Oh dear! There must be others here who do understand that Cumla is in ALL Wing Chun? HK/Mainland/Vietnamese etc

Cumla?? Ok mate! If you say so! I'm just glad I'm not in your Universe!


I feel sorry for you dude :o and you're still such a young Wing Chun student! You've still got time :D

Aw bless. Feeling sorry for little old me? :o


What this tells me is that you are just a bit ignorant to others mate ;) Your main objective could be screwed. Research more and come back to me when you have trained outside your own bubble. I have, especially recently! And I found more treasures in my European brothers.

What it tells me is that you aint got a clue what your on about mate but I enjoy reading your self obsessed posts. You and several other naughty kung fu monkeys brighten up my day! :rolleyes:

GH

[faxiapreta]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCkJ8I7ZqXU&feature=player_embedded :) ;)

I would be ashamed to claim that as the "grappling" component of my style.

About the only person you could make that stuff work on might be an 80-year-old grandmother.

[Frost]

Okay. Good point! :) But answer me this...

"From the little wooden man I have shown, is it even 'familiar' to you?"

I would guess not to be honest, because what I have put out so far has never been shared with the public, like ever. And I took a risk actually putting the stuff out! :eek: Luckily it just spurred my own Sifu to do very similar things himself on Facebook, so we're all still talking.



Firstly, the clip I posted was of an Italian student of Austin Goh. I thought he was being quite inventive, and I can see the techs that are more 'Lee Shing' compared to others that he has simply added to his stuff from his experience. I can appreciate some things like that because I know how vast our tool bag is. Can you? No. You just think it's crap. But why exactly?

Secondly, I have and will never admit that we don't have 'throws, submissions or groundwork'. It all has specifics that need to be understood, That's what this whole debate was about for me. Going beyond our Lapsau to the Cumla methods is there. How most express it is totally personal because they simply have no pole training, which is a shame because all that's there too! Also more advanced Cumla uses pressure point knowledge that's not funny. First hand, I've heard big men squeal like girls :D

I may not have the same technique 'names' as a BJJ player, but I do have an array of options for that sort of encounter which may look similar, and I draw that knowledge from my own training experience in Wing Chun. I know most find that hard to believe, but why should I lie?

i think the clips cr*p becaused well, i could break it down for you...no real control, consentrating on limb catures that simply dont work, unrealstic takedowns that only work on compliant partners....so on and so on but its pointless, if you think its good and inventive, that pressure points really make it work better etc then its pointless because im you seem very deluded where really grappling is concerned

[faxiapreta]

One sign of someone who has zero clue about grappling is that they believe that pressure points are effective. Pressure point are only effective when they involve putting enough pressure on both carotid arteries to shut off the blood flow (can you say choke?) or to shove a finger into the eye socket. That's about the extent of pressure points.

[Frost]

One sign of someone who has zero clue about grappling is that they believe that pressure points are effective. Pressure point are only effective when they involve putting enough pressure on both carotid arteries to shut off the blood flow (can you say choke?) or to shove a finger into the eye socket. That's about the extent of pressure points.

true and the comment about making big men scream....thats a give away to real insecurity

[GlennR]

You know what I find funny?? It's when people get the wrong end of the proverbial stick and start chest beating. Especially MMA guys :(

I find it even more condescending when MMA guys judge my own experience of Wing Chun, which involved much blood, sweat and tears, on the sh!t teaching that they have experienced (of Wing Chun maybe?)

Let me ask anyone to re-read over my comments and tell me when I have said that Wing Chun has submission holds like BJJ/wrestling?? I haven't.

Where have I mentioned the word 'grappling'?? I haven't.

THIS seems to be a mojor issue with guys who may be struggling to actually READ what I write! Now I aint saying MMA guys can't read!! I'm saying that you're reading what 'you like' and half the time start diverting our Wing Chun threads because of this. So, let's be clear...

Chin Na (Cumla in 'lazy' Cantonese!) describes seizing. It does not say 'what' you're seizing. It's a method used (at the beginning!) in conjunction with lapsau, which is describing the 'purpose' of a hand. Everyone here should know what 'lap' is I guess so I won't even go there.

This is why lapsau, for Wing Chun guys and girls, is the start of everything we do with regards to seizing and manipulating joints etc. If you have a lineage where the masters have been doctors or herbalists or TCM practitioners, then 9 times out of 10 you will have these elements in your training drills. AND they will be represented in the forms of the system.

FACT1: Leung Jan was such a TCM practitioner, even a 'Doctor' by todays standards, and it may be hard to take this one, FACT2: so was my own Sigung Lee Shing!

All I am saying here is that, yes, I have Cumla methods in what I have learnt, and I am free to express these ideas as I like. As I said earlier, there's mention of Cumla but as a method to seize 'anything'. I've even sat and discussed this with some excellent BJJ/Judo players so please don't think I have no respect for what these guys do coz I do!

So looking at all your clips I see this Cumla Wing Chun method being used. Now, HOW an individual uses this stuff is what I think you're getting at. The BJJ guys are doing this all day. I can't argue with that! They're skilled in reactive and proactive play and they can lock you up easily because of this. Doesn't seem to matter about size either, good crisp technique reins supreme.

Now, isn't THAT Wing Chun?

I get fed up with people, who may never have even practised Wing Chun for any serious length of time or with a reputable, proven teacher, come here and tell me that 'unless you do this you aint doing cum la'!

Grow up dude. Realize that Wing Chun isn't a 'kung fu' thing that's filled with cheap tricks to sell to the uninitiated, it's a Martial Art and a complete one at that. :) And dare I say, more 'complete' as a Martial Art than any competitive trend I have seen to this day.

We can all learn from eachother too, if you keep your eyes open you might well see that...

Where do i start with this post??

To be honest i have no idea. Theres so much that is wrong with the TCMA approach , which you only highlight over and over again. But ill give it a shot


'This is why lapsau, for Wing Chun guys and girls, is the start of everything we do with regards to seizing and manipulating joints etc. If you have a lineage where the masters have been doctors or herbalists or TCM practitioners, then 9 times out of 10 you will have these elements in your training drills. AND they will be represented in the forms of the system.

FACT1: Leung Jan was such a TCM practitioner, even a 'Doctor' by todays standards, and it may be hard to take this one, FACT2: so was my own Sigung Lee Shing!'

Those 2 paragraphs reek of "wishing it so", assuming a required relationship between being a Dr and fighting skill, which is nonsense. Might be handy to know the anatomy, but it hardly makes you a clawing joint manipualting killing machine.
And the "FACTS1&2" reek of association with an expert to give your argument credability.
Heres one for you then , my mainland lineage is Leung Chun, Leung Jans son. We dont have the Chin na you have, yet my lineage is closer to the "source".
My YM lineage is TST, same again.
Both these lineages (whilst different in some areas) advocate striking whilst attacking and controlling the opponents COG. And thats a common theme amongst pretty much all the WC i have seen
Yours isnt. So by all means tell people that in your lineage you do it, but stop telling anyone asking that everyone does/should.

And as for this....


"So looking at all your clips I see this Cumla Wing Chun method being used. Now, HOW an individual uses this stuff is what I think you're getting at. The BJJ guys are doing this all day. I can't argue with that! They're skilled in reactive and proactive play and they can lock you up easily because of this. Doesn't seem to matter about size either, good crisp technique reins supreme.

Now, isn't THAT Wing Chun?"

NO... its BJJ!!!!!

Again..... BJJ!

And finally.....


"Grow up dude. Realize that Wing Chun isn't a 'kung fu' thing that's filled with cheap tricks to sell to the uninitiated, it's a Martial Art and a complete one at that. :) And dare I say, more 'complete' as a Martial Art than any competitive trend I have seen to this day."

My friend, if i thought WC was cheap tricks, i would have given it up years ago. I train with boxers and Thai boxers and have tested it more in the last week than i think you have in the last 10 years.
I did my "growing up" the 1st time i walked into the MT gym.

WC is not a complete martial art, no more that boxing, MT or bjj are to name 3.
They give you an arsenal in their preferred range/scenario which will hopefully get you out of trouble. And, they happily admit it.

Get out of the kwoon and walk into a gym, and grow up yourself. I opened my eyes years ago

GlennR

[GlennR]

if your VT looks like this, then you have added something that isnt VT....:D but thats not a bad thing at all. I just get a little irked when guys say its already there, just look deeper into your pole, turn chi-sao into wrestling, dirty clinching... :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etmI0OraeoQ&NR=1


Yep spot on

[YouKnowWho]

Let's make this discussion a bit more "concrete". By using the following list of Judo throws as an example, can anybody come up a list of all the throws that can be found in the WC system? Can you list 30, 20, or even 10?

http://www.judoinfo.com/animate.htm

How about the hip throw (mother of all throws)?

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm

let's also come up a list of all the Chin Na that exist in the WC system.

- finger lock?
- wrist lock?
- elbow lock?
- shoulder lock?
- head lock?
- spin lock?
- knee lock?
- ankle lock?
- toe lock (not sure this one exist :D)?

[LoneTiger108]

Where do i start with this post??

To be honest i have no idea. Theres so much that is wrong with the TCMA approach , which you only highlight over and over again.

To be frank with you, I respect your opinion (shame you have no respect for mine) but you yourself can not see the woods through the trees as you can dismiss thousands of years of culture so easily and not even 'see yourself'.

For one, I never meant anything I said tyo come acroos as 'because they knew some TCM they're awesome fighters!' In fact, have I even mentioned fighting? No. That seems to be your tip, and most others here, and I simply do not care for such chat.

Oh, and here comes the big guns!


Heres one for you then , my mainland lineage is Leung Chun, Leung Jans son. We dont have the Chin na you have, yet my lineage is closer to the "source".
My YM lineage is TST, same again.
Both these lineages (whilst different in some areas) advocate striking whilst attacking and controlling the opponents COG. And thats a common theme amongst pretty much all the WC i have seen

I'm sorry that you have had such experience of narrow minded teaching. I feel that you, like so many others, have accepted your little Wing Chun box and will be fighting yourselves in it for life. Too late to change now. Too late to adapt. And if you wanted to, you would drop the Wing Chun and start wrestling.


So by all means tell people that in your lineage you do it, but stop telling anyone asking that everyone does/should.

Finally we come full circle. Now it's you telling everyone what their Wing Chun should be and you come at me with this gem :rolleyes:


WC is not a complete martial art, no more that boxing, MT or bjj are to name 3.

Keep telling yourself that, and you will remain in your little box. Ot maybe return to your SLT to look for more answers because you're on a dead-end pathway there dude imhhhhhhhhho.

Answer me this, because we may have missed eachothers meaning somewhere along the line; what do you consider a 'complete' martial art?

For me, it's skilled practise in areas like weaponry, drilling equipment like the wooden man, interactive training like our chisau, foundation knowledge like our forms and the transmission of cultural heritage like our kuit and literature/curriculums. And the Wing Chun I have learnt does contain all of that. Pretty complete I'd say.

[LoneTiger108]

true and the comment about making big men scream....thats a give away to real insecurity

No. Seeing what I wrote and coming back with THAT screams of your own insecurities :D Are you a big guy with big guns??! ;)

I only say it how I see it, and if you have never seen Sifu Ziegler move and demonstrate his cumla methods then what do you know about what I have seen?! He's quite a big guys himself, so my comment had nothing to do with some 'little man' complex.

Funny that. How wrong people can be about me :D

[GlennR]

To be frank with you, I respect your opinion (shame you have no respect for mine) but you yourself can not see the woods through the trees as you can dismiss thousands of years of culture so easily and not even 'see yourself'.

For one, I never meant anything I said tyo come acroos as 'because they knew some TCM they're awesome fighters!' In fact, have I even mentioned fighting? No. That seems to be your tip, and most others here, and I simply do not care for such chat.



If you dont profess to be interested in the fighting side thats fine, just dont give advice on fighting applications then


Oh, and here comes the big guns!

I'm sorry that you have had such experience of narrow minded teaching. I feel that you, like so many others, have accepted your little Wing Chun box and will be fighting yourselves in it for life. Too late to change now. Too late to adapt. And if you wanted to, you would drop the Wing Chun and start wrestling.

Mate, ive never insulted your lineage or teachers, how about you keep it the same.


Finally we come full circle. Now it's you telling everyone what their Wing Chun should be and you come at me with this gem :rolleyes:

Nonsense. All i said was that there wasnt Chin na in most WC, which you claimed there was. Roll your eyes all you like but youre wrong.




Answer me this, because we may have missed eachothers meaning somewhere along the line; what do you consider a 'complete' martial art?

For me, it's skilled practise in areas like weaponry, drilling equipment like the wooden man, interactive training like our chisau, foundation knowledge like our forms and the transmission of cultural heritage like our kuit and literature/curriculums. And the Wing Chun I have learnt does contain all of that. Pretty complete I'd say.

I have a culture, im Australian and that culture will do me.
As far as a complete martial art is concerned, that would depend on your definition of Martial Art. Ours differ, so if youre happy with yours great, lets agree to disagree.

[Mulong]

Pardon me; I am curious why is it so hard to believe all style/disciplines of Chinese martial arts contain qinna/kahm nah (擒拿) and shuai/syut (摔) even though your shifu/sifuh hasn’t introduce it to you?

Indeed, a discipline may prefer certain primary theories/techniques, e.g., strikes and kicks, but it doesn’t imply that it doesn’t include controlling or throwing techniques. The biggest problem I see here is that some individual really believe that their shifu is a demigod, that they are the all knowing and simply forgetting that he is merely a human, who has strength and weakness. Therefore, why would he show his weakness to his students? Mm, I don’t think so; therefore, it is better to say that it doesn’t exist.

This reminds me of one of my shifu, who always stated there was no qinna in our style, even though I was able to recognize someone. He even stated I was doing jiu jitsu, which I chuckle, because I have never official studied it; however, I was expose to it and was able to recognize that certain posture did correlate and actually worked. (Isn’t that the objective?) Shortly afterward I left my shifu’s wuguan for my martial arts journey and a few years later I saw that my shifu was now teaching qinna, after he came back from a trip to China.

Another shifu of mine was very cautious towards qinna, because he knew by personal experience that not all the controls worked in a tactical situation; therefore, it was better to focus on primary techniques that worked under pressure. However, it didn’t mean he didn’t know qinna, but he believed it should be used sparsely.

I have been very fortunate that I have been exposed and studied with the pioneer of qinna within this States, and it was an eye opener, because each one prefers certain attribute of qinna which means that qinna isn’t as generic as some believe it to be. Therefore, each style imparts its brand/flavor of qinna which makes it interesting. For example, some of yongchunquan’s shuai techniques are similar to baguazhang, not judo, i.e., smaller fulcrums.

At the end all Chinese martial arts are one of the same; the difference is based upon individual’s psychological makeup and physical capacity. :)

[Frost]

No. Seeing what I wrote and coming back with THAT screams of your own insecurities :D Are you a big guy with big guns??! ;)

I only say it how I see it, and if you have never seen Sifu Ziegler move and demonstrate his cumla methods then what do you know about what I have seen?! He's quite a big guys himself, so my comment had nothing to do with some 'little man' complex.

Funny that. How wrong people can be about me :D

yep 220 pounds and a registered powerlifter :)

but hey im so insecure i have to demo my grappling against a wooden dummy in my specially built studio in by back garden....oh no wait i have actually competed in both TCMA traditonal sparring and in grappling tournements

oh i dont think anyone here has an opinion on you thats incorrect but hey prove us wrong post a clip of you using your pole grappling in an actual match :D

[Vajramusti]

Pardon me; I am curious why is it so hard to believe all style/disciplines of Chinese martial arts contain qinna/kahm nah (擒拿) and shuai/syut (摔) even though your shifu/sifuh hasn’t introduce it to you? (Mulong)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That does not surprise me but I am no preacher. Folks are free to do what they want to and can.Partly repeating myself-throwing and seizing are functions and they can be approached by different styles using their own unique principles and methods.The wing chun that i do does have seizing and/or throwing if the opportunity is there
and it is the most spontaneous and efficient path at a given moment.Performing those functions are not easy for beginners.
To me wing chun has distinctive principles that come alive through teaching, learning and practice-it is not a collection of techniques.

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

[FONT="Georgia"]Pardon me; I am curious why is it so hard to believe all style/disciplines of Chinese martial arts contain qinna/kahm nah (擒拿) and shuai/syut (摔) even though your shifu/sifuh hasn’t introduce it to you?


Perhaps one thing mistaken commonly is the idea that a system "contains" certain techniques and that a system trains the individual to a high level of skill in that technique or discipline.

[Wayfaring]

The wing chun that i do does have seizing and/or throwing if the opportunity is there
and it is the most spontaneous and efficient path at a given moment.Performing those functions are not easy for beginners.
To me wing chun has distinctive principles that come alive through teaching, learning and practice-it is not a collection of techniques.

joy chaudhuri

Joy,

Here is a highlight clip of an individual who lives and teaches in your city who has actual proven skills in these areas as opposed to posturing about having those skills. While you may be too advanced in age to test out your skills against someone like this, what about one of your instructors at your school?

Wouldn't you really like to know where the skills you are supposedly building in the wing chun you do that has seizing and throwing in it compared to someone else in an art that has proven skills in those areas?

"Performing those functions are not easy for beginners".

By that statement it sounds like you are stating to the forum that you are not a beginner in this area, and have traveled the path to becoming an advanced practitioner of seizing and throwing.

I highly doubt that claim. The ease of investigating this would simply involve traveling 15 minutes, and asking do do a simple chi sau type test from the feet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRq-1LC8-Do

Now I hope that you will respond to this in a mature and objective fashion, and will not ignore it, talk down your nose at such a concept, or try to rationalize further by saying "what I do works for me" in some fashion.

Really. Something like this is a very simple test, and it's not asking someone to get in a cage with someone for a paid fight or anything similar. It's a simple test of objective skill. This is not trash talk. I am taking any of that out of the mix so that it is not something you can point to as a reason to ignore the logic and the argument.

It is a simple request. If you are going to make claims and speak like you have advanced skill in an area it should be at least partially be able to be supported with objective evidence.

Thanks for the consideration.

[Mulong]

Actually basic controlling and throwing can be taught earlier on with success. However, focus should be placed on primary techniques, not secondary or tertiary which are hard to do in a real tactical situation. Sadly, most schools enjoy teaching those because they look cool. This remind me of the early day of UFC, when the Gracie will demonstrate some complex techniques for the audience which they wouldn’t ever attempt within the octagon because of the risk factor.

For example, an easy technique which can be found in siu lien tao/xiaoliantou, which is包拳 baoquan (pouh kyuhn): Embracing Fist and伏手/ fushou (fuhk sau): Hiding Hand or 盖手/gaishou (goi sau): Covering Hand which creates 壓肘yazhou (ngaat jaau): Pressing Elbow.



Here is a basic throw that all individuals can execute easily. It can be taught on three levels:

1. Kicking in the back of the knee
2. Sweeping back the leg
3. Twisting the waist



撞胸前切摔
Zhuang Xiong Qian Qie Shuai
Colliding Chest, Front Cutting, Throwing-Down

[Vajramusti]

Mulong- thanks for the interesting illustrations.

joy chaudhuri

[YouKnowWho]

1. Kicking in the back of the knee
2. Sweeping back the leg
3. Twisting the waist

撞胸前切摔
Zhuang Xiong Qian Qie Shuai
Colliding Chest, Front Cutting, Throwing-Down

The

- "切(Qie) - Front Cut" may be the most commone one used in the TCMA.
- "踢(Ti) - Foot Sweep" will require good timing and correct angle. There are more than 30 different ways to execute it.

Besides "踢(Ti) - Foot Sweep", the "别(Bie) - Leg Block" is another popular throw. It also includes more than 30 different ways to execute it.

TCMA has more than 60 different categories of throws. Both "踢(Ti) - Foot Sweep" and "别(Bie) - Leg Block" categories all have more than 30 throws. The total number of throws that exist in TCMA are more than 400 in number.

Here is the most common TCMA "小纏絲(Xiao Chan Xi) - wrist lock".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vXM3zaBnO4

[faxiapreta]

Here is the most common TCMA "小纏絲(Xiao Chan Xi) - wrist lock".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vXM3zaBnO4

Using that clip as an example of an effective joint lock demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of effective joint lock.

You might have a background and knowledge of throws, but, based on the above clip, one would have to assume you have almost no experience with joint locks.

Here is why that lock won't work:

- Anyone with half a clue will retract the arm when you attempt to grap the hand with your other hand.

- If you did manage to grab his hand, to move your arm into position after you have grabbed your opponent's hand, you have to externally rotate your wrist upwards and in an external rotation. The small muscles that do this will always be significantly weaker that the large muscle groups the opponent will use to pull his arm back and downward to counter your upward rotation.

- On the small chance that you did pull the technique off and bring the opponent down, he simply needs to roll over his inside shoulder to escape any pressure. This lock lacks the single most important component of a joint lock- full control of the opponent's mobility.

[TenTigers]

the clip left out a few things-due to the fact that it is an instructional video, and the techniques are shown in simplified form for learning peurposes:
1) In cum-na sao faht, the basic rule is strike to set up a lock, to set up a strike.
The clip simply focuses on the lock, without the set-up strike, which is in most cases, a strike to a nerve plexus.
2) the lock was demonstrated slowly and compliantly-obviously for the sake of teaching. When applied combatively, it is fast and forceful, and tighter/closer to the body.

[YouKnowWho]

based on the above clip, one would have to assume you have almost no experience with joint locks.
The joint lock skill is not only used in the "ground game".

From your comment, if you don't even understand how the wrist lock work (joint lock 101), I can tell that you are clueless about how the "stand up" joint lock work. This "wrist lock" can be used to set up many things. It's the 1st step of 三把腕子(San Ba Wan Z1). There are much more after that. It's not my place to teach you such basic joint lock skill.

[faxiapreta]

The joint lock skill is not only used in the "ground game".

From your comment, if you don't even understand how the wrist lock work (joint lock 101), I can tell that you have no idea about how the "stand up" joint lock work.

Do you think the "shoulder jack" can only be used in the ground game?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LS-SeoWvaw

How about just simple "finger break"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyxwMVnpV3c

It has nothing to do with standup or ground.

Neither the wrist lock or the shoulder jack will work. You can easily prove me wrong. Go to any submission grappling tourney and attempt either of these. You will quickly see that neither works against opponents who are not compliant.

It is clear you've never actually gone against resisting opponents who are even halfway trained in this stuff.

As far as the finger break, I'll leave that for you to figure out on your own why that doesn't work with some simple critical and objective thinking.

[YouKnowWho]

Here is why that lock won't work:

1. Anyone with half a clue will retract the arm when you attempt to grap the hand with your other hand.

2. If you did manage to grab his hand, to move your arm into position after you have grabbed your opponent's hand, you have to externally rotate your wrist upwards and in an external rotation. The small muscles that do this will always be significantly weaker that the large muscle groups the opponent will use to pull his arm back and downward to counter your upward rotation.

3. On the small chance that you did pull the technique off and bring the opponent down, he simply needs to roll over his inside shoulder to escape any pressure. This lock lacks the single most important component of a joint lock- full control of the opponent's mobility.

1. Do you think that I won't know that my opponent will try to pull his arm back? I'll have many things waiting for him to do that.

2. It's not a simple "upward rotation". There is a set up that you can fool your opponent before that, but I don't feel like to go into deeper discussion beyond this. It's OK to share information among TCMA lovers. It's not OK to share information to those who has no faith in TCMA.

3. After you have taken your opponent down, you can kick his head, run to your car, come back with your Colt 45, and finish it.

[faxiapreta]

1. Do you think that I won't know that my opponent will try to pull his arm back?
2. It's not a simple "upward rotation". There is a set up that you can fool your opponent before that, but I don't feel like to go any deeper on this.

There are thousands of submission grapplers who have traditional backgrounds somewhere in their past who have seen that technique. There is a reason that they never pull it off... because after a couple of months of actually doing submissions, everyone understands it doesn't work.

It would be great to add that to one's repetoire if it worked, but, unfortunately, it doesn't.

Like I said, if you think I'm wrong, it would be a simple thing to prove me wrong. Enter a submission grappling tourney and show it working.

[TenTigers]

Like I said, if you think I'm wrong, it would be a simple thing to prove me wrong. Enter a submission grappling tourney and show it working.
General Rules
1) No unsportsmanlike conduct will be allowed. You may be disqualified or ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct. The referees will be shown maximum respect at all times. Their decisions are final and will not be overturned.
2) No striking, biting, eye gouging (includes chin to eye), head butting, small joint manipulation (finger or toe locks), hair pulling, grabbing the windpipe, or ear pulling will be permitted.
3) No slamming allowed. Illegal slamming will be defined as slamming your opponent to escape submissions and/or to pass the guard; or standing from the guard and/or jumping from a standing position to slam your opponent. Slamming will result in an automatic DQ. There are no exceptions to this rule. Takedowns are NOT considered slams, but you must deliver your opponent safely to the mat.
4) No infectious skin diseases (such as ringworm, staph, and MRSA) or open wounds will be permitted. No lubricants, oils, or lotions of any kind will be permitted on any part of the body or clothing.
5) Competitors will be allowed to continue grappling anywhere on the matted area, provided they don’t interfere with another match. If the competitors near the edge of the mat, they will be restarted from the same position, unless the referee is unable to duplicate the position for any reason. In case the referee is unable to duplicate the position, the competitors will restart from a standing position.
6) If a competitor flees the ring when a submission is locked in and the competitor is obviously fleeing to avoid submission, he or she will be automatically disqualified.
7) Women will not be permitted to compete in Men’s divisions. Men will not be permitted to compete in Women’s divisions. Teens (13+) may compete in Men’s or Women’s divisions with permission from their parent or coach. Men over age 30 are eligible to compete in the 30+ divisions, but may also compete in the Men’s divisions.
8) In Juvenile (ages 4-17) matches, the referee has the discretion to call a match if the referee believes that a submission will cause immediate damage or injury, especially in the beginner divisions.

Note: U.S. Grappling reserves the right to expand or combine divisions to accommodate competitors.

[YouKnowWho]

Enter a submission grappling tourney and show it working.
I feel like that I'm a chicken and talking to a duck. This wrist lock won't work on the ground because a 45 degree angle will be needed to execute this move. But I'm sure you are clueless about what "45 degree angle" means here.

I don't like to wait for my opponent to grab me. I like to grab my opponent's arm. Since we are talking about joint lock. Let me throw out 2 more here:

Finger Break (Is this clear enough that this won't allow on the ground?):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyxwMVnpV3c

Shoulder Jack (Is this clear enought that this won't work on the ground?):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LS-SeoWvaw

[faxiapreta]

, small joint manipulation (finger or toe locks),

No finger locks, but you can do both the shoulder lock and the wrist lock you were referring to.


When will you be entering that tourney?

[faxiapreta]

I feel like that I'm a chicken and talking to a duck. This wrist lock won't work on the ground because a 45 degree angle will be needed to execute this move. But I'm sure you are clueless about what "45 degree angle" means here.

I don't like to wait for my opponent to grab me. I like to grab my opponent's arm. Since we are talking about joint lock. Let me throw out 2 more here:

Finger Break:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyxwMVnpV3c

Shoulder Jack:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LS-SeoWvaw

You already showed those. They don't work.

[TenTigers]

No finger locks, but you can do both the shoulder lock and the wrist lock you were referring to.


When will you be entering that tourney?
the shoulder lock is also the same (when completed) as an outward shoulder throw, which is a common throw used in competitions.
My students have entered and placed in shuai jiao competitions.
We are presently interested in competing in sport jiujutsu, which sounds like a fun and well-regulated compietion which contains stand-up as well as submission grappling. I will keep you posted of the results.

[faxiapreta]

Shoulder Jack (Is this clear enought that this won't work on the ground?):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LS-SeoWvaw

You don't have to use it on the ground. You can use it standing.

When will you be entering that tourney and posting the clips?

[YouKnowWho]

When will you be entering that tourney?

I still feel like I'm a chicken and trying to talk to a duck.

Both "wrist lock" and "shoulder jack" only work in stand up game and you want me to prove it also work in the ground game. I would like you to show me how to use a MT "flying knee" and "roundhouse kick" in the ground game as well.

[faxiapreta]

the shoulder lock is also the same (when completed) as an outward shoulder throw, which is a common throw used in competitions.

No, it's not. You will never see anyone rotating the arm like that in a competition because it doesn't work.

[faxiapreta]

I still feel like I'm a chicken and trying to talk to a duck.

Both "wrist lock" and "shoulder jack" only work in stand up game and you want me to prove it also work in the ground game. I would like you to show me how to use a MT "flying knee" and "roundhouse kick" in the ground game as well.

Um... hello!! Do you understand that submission grappling is BOTH standing and ground?

You can do either of those techniques. From standing in your match. No one says you have to go to the ground.

When will you be doing this?

[TenTigers]

No, it's not. You will never see anyone rotating the arm like that in a competition because it doesn't work.
(sigh) Well! Ya can't argue with that logic! Problem solved!

[YouKnowWho]

Um... hello!! Do you understand that submission grappling is BOTH standing and ground?

You can do either of those techniques. From standing in your match. No one says you have to go to the ground.

When will you be doing this?

If you said that MT "flying knee" exsit, do you have to go to a MT tournament to use it in order to prove it?

I have always said that "standing up joint lock is easy to learn but hard to apply". I said, "Here is the most common TCMA "小纏絲(Xiao Chan Xi) - wrist lock". I didn't say that lock is my favor move.

[Wayfaring]

You might have a background and knowledge of throws, but, based on the above clip, one would have to assume you have almost no experience with joint locks.

This thread is full of posters/posers that have at the very best a novice level of experience with joint locks and throws as well.

And yet they want to pretend they are "advanced" and teachers of this skillset. They completely ignore evidence to the obvious and prefer to keep their head buried in the sand. This is extremely dishonest.

As you correctly point out the largest problem with most of these approaches to joint locks is that people's delivery systems fail to limit the mobility of the rest of the body to escape them. Thus they will only work on the most extreme novice.

Chin na, Cum na/la in WCK from a realistic objective sense has to be looked at as a temporary transitional control over an opponent for the purpose of off-balancing, affecting center of gravity and moving to a position and facing that allows for finishing the opponent with close quarter striking.

If WCK people were honest enough and objective enough to face this fact there really would be no issue with this, even from a MMA / BJJ perspective.

But unfortunately, in this thread, many people are showing very poor overall martial art quality in general and a dishonest reasoning process and evaluation process. I would have zero interest in interacting with or training with people like that.

[YouKnowWho]

This is what I said.


Here is the most common TCMA "小纏絲(Xiao Chan Xi) - wrist lock".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vXM3zaBnO4

This is the conclusion according to your logic.


based on the above clip, one would have to assume you have almost no experience with joint locks.

Can you see that why you are not "loved" in this forum? You jump from general discussion to personal attack so quickly that you don't even realize yourself.

[faxiapreta]

(sigh) Well! Ya can't argue with that logic! Problem solved!

I shall await the clips of your students doing this in tourneys.

[faxiapreta]

If you said that MT "flying knee" exsit, do you have to go to a MT tournament to use it in order to prove it?

No, because you see it all the time in both MMA and Muay Thai.


I have always said that "standing up joint lock is easy to learn but hard to apply". I said, "Here is the most common TCMA "小纏絲(Xiao Chan Xi) - wrist lock". I didn't say that lock is my favor move.

So, basically, you post moves that don't work against non-compliant opponents.

Your reasoning is about the same as someone saying BJJ has punches and then showing a clip of some crappy punching.

[faxiapreta]

This is what I said.



This is the conclusion according to your logic.



Can you see that why you are not "loved" in this forum? You jump from general discussion to personal attack so quickly that you don't even realize yourself.

You are claiming to have experience with joint locks, are you not?

You are also posting a technique that there is no evidence for being done against resisting opponents.

[Mulong]

Thanks Vajramusti…

You are defiantly right YouKnowWho; I was simply giving a basic outline.

Concerning the video; wrist controls are a no-no in actual tactical training, because they are so hard to pull-off. Elbow, shoulder, and the neck are primary links, wrist is secondary techniques. Sadly, most school teach for first wrist control (not sure why), but they are usually useless.

[faxiapreta]

Thanks Vajramusti…

You are defiantly right YouKnowWho; I was simply giving a basic outline.

Concerning the video; wrist controls are a no-no in actual tactical training, because they are so hard to pull-off. Elbow, shoulder, and the neck are primary links, wrist is secondary techniques. Sadly, most school teach for first wrist control (not sure why), but they are usually useless.

Nothing wrong with wrist control. It happens all the time in grappling and MMA.

The problems come when you try to turn wrist control into a lock.

[YouKnowWho]

wrist controls are a no-no in actual tactical training, because they are so hard to pull-off. Elbow, shoulder, and the neck are primary links, wrist is secondary techniques. Sadly, most school teach for first wrist control (not sure why), but they are usually useless.
The wrist control is the beginning of the "cheating" game. The moment that you force your opponent to pay attention on his wrist, the moment that he may forget about the rest part of his body. Since your opponent's wrist is closer to you than his elbow, shoulder, and neck, you start from his wrist and gradually work toward his elbow, shoulder, and finally his neck.

[Frost]

the clip left out a few things-due to the fact that it is an instructional video, and the techniques are shown in simplified form for learning peurposes:
1) In cum-na sao faht, the basic rule is strike to set up a lock, to set up a strike.
The clip simply focuses on the lock, without the set-up strike, which is in most cases, a strike to a nerve plexus.
2) the lock was demonstrated slowly and compliantly-obviously for the sake of teaching. When applied combatively, it is fast and forceful, and tighter/closer to the body.

And still doesn’t work (but hey don’t let that stop you talking about it)

[Frost]

There are thousands of submission grapplers who have traditional backgrounds somewhere in their past who have seen that technique. There is a reason that they never pull it off... because after a couple of months of actually doing submissions, everyone understands it doesn't work.

It would be great to add that to one's repetoire if it worked, but, unfortunately, it doesn't.

Like I said, if you think I'm wrong, it would be a simple thing to prove me wrong. Enter a submission grappling tourney and show it working.

This = me, 10 years of TCMA, loved chin na worked on it for years, demoed it at national comps…took me weeks of grappling to realise why I couldn’t pull it off in sparring, and also why non of my former class mates could either, but hey I probably didn’t have the real deal so please can someone like ten tigers step up (or his students) and enter a grappling comp and prove it works……

[Frost]

the shoulder lock is also the same (when completed) as an outward shoulder throw, which is a common throw used in competitions.
My students have entered and placed in shuai jiao competitions.
We are presently interested in competing in sport jiujutsu, which sounds like a fun and well-regulated compietion which contains stand-up as well as submission grappling. I will keep you posted of the results.

So you have never competed in submission grappling nore trained anyone for it but you are telling people who have what works in that environment. how about MMA have your guys pulled of wrist locks there?

[Frost]

Um... hello!! Do you understand that submission grappling is BOTH standing and ground?

You can do either of those techniques. From standing in your match. No one says you have to go to the ground.

When will you be doing this?

True all comps allow standing subs….now I wonder why you see so few…..

[Frost]

(sigh) Well! Ya can't argue with that logic! Problem solved!

Here we go……….lets keep it simple shall me show it works in a comp….because telling people who have grappled what does and does not work when you haven’t is silly

[Mulong]

Elbow wraps are the best, because they are obtainable; for example, 摊手 taan sau/tanshou (spread arm) is great posture for qinna and even shuai:

別肘 biht jaau/biezhou (pinning elbow)

[faxiapreta]

Elbow wraps are the best, because they are obtainable; for example, 摊手 taan sau/tanshou (spread arm) is great posture for qinna and even shuai:

別肘 biht jaau/biezhou (pinning elbow)

There is a reason you will never see these things done in a resisting environment.

This is simply more b.s. that doesn't work.

In this day and age, it's amazing the stuff people still fall for.

[Mulong]

I was giving an example of an elbow wrap... Trust me this work if you know what you are doing.

Therefore, you didn't approve of that particular technique which I respect your opinion; then share diagrams to assist others with your personal insight?

Honestly, just trying to be helpful with ideals/notions. It easy to stay shut and not share…

[faxiapreta]

I was giving an example of an elbow wrap... Trust me this work if you know what you are doing.

Therefore, you didn't approve of that particular technique which I respect your opinion; then share diagrams to assist others with your personal insight?

Honestly, just trying to be helpful with ideals/notions. It easy to stay shut and not share…

Earlier in the thread, I posted a variety of clips showing what works.

[Mulong]

Cool…

As you well know they are some many variations out there; diagrams/video are highlighting one particular situation, because in an actual tactical situation anything happens; we don’t have control of that.

However, my intent was simply illustrated that a certain posture in this case spread arm possesses more attribute then a mere block which I refer to as first-dimension techniques, i.e., obvious to the eyes. Sadly, most shifus only teach first-dimension techniques because it is no-brainer. (Indeed, it is better to train primary movements/techniques, but in their cases they aren’t aware that there is more.)

[Wayfaring]

Cool…

As you well know they are some many variations out there; diagrams/video are highlighting one particular situation, because in an actual tactical situation anything happens; we don’t have control of that.

However, my intent was simply illustrated that a certain posture in this case spread arm possesses more attribute then a mere block which I refer to as first-dimension techniques, i.e., obvious to the eyes. Sadly, most shifus only teach first-dimension techniques because it is no-brainer. (Indeed, it is better to train primary movements/techniques, but in their cases they aren’t aware that there is more.)

But what you do have control over is to do things in a tactical situation that aligns with good fundamental grappling / throwing techniques.

The above diagram does neither. And unfortunately, that it is wrapped with Chinese characters and descriptions is even more of the problem, as just that fact alone will appeal to TCMA traditionalists, causing them to be even more deluded.

As one possible example of problems there, in the transition between A and B above, uke in the diagram can easily transition to taking the back of tori exposing a mata leon - RNC. There is no kuzushi, and the finishing attempt at a shoulder lock does not isolate the body. The transition point between the pictures even if done with skill presents too much of an opening for countering hip movement which would reverse the technique.

Judoka would laugh at that, BJJ practitioners, sambo, and so would anyone with wrestling technical skill. If someone took that diagram and relating instruction and tried to use it in say a bar scenario to subdue an opponent, they could get seriously injured.

Those are the problems with showing BS techniques.

[Wayfaring]

Earlier in the thread, I posted a variety of clips showing what works.

You mean training with Gokor? Yes that definitely would work. Could be a little painful initially, but if someone stuck with it over time it would work well.

[Mulong]

I appreciate your viewpoint/knowledge, but as you already know it takes years of practice to understand this. However, how do we introduce “Na” to individuals who have no experience with it?

[Wayfaring]

I appreciate your viewpoint/knowledge, but as you already know it takes years of practice to understand this. However, how do we introduce “Na” to individuals who have no experience with it?

Students are already familiarizing themselves with the "feel" of controlling centerline and how to connect to and influence the opponents COG through chi sau and/or kiu sau bridge contact. IMO the "na" concepts are a little bit extra grip or "bite" on the opponents bridge to control them. Explain the use and the limitations as well - that you MAY be able to completely offbalance the opponent and take them to the ground, or MAY be able to move to a standing joint lock, but that you do not want to sacrifice position and advantageous facing to do so. The preferred approach would be to move your opponent to a position where they are open to attack with finishing strikes from close quarters and facing advantage.

Lap sau is a perfect example. If you have good energy, timing, and get a good "bite" on the grip, your opponent is left with their back and shoulder exposed and you in perfect balance. You can strike with little chance of the opponent either blocking or countering and striking back. You can punch to targets on the back, head, attack the back of the knee with a foot, etc. But you don't want to attempt some Steven Seagal-esque complicated aikido type continuation of a wrist-lock set up from the "bite" on your lap sau grip, even if it looks cool on TV. If you are skilled at grappling, you could also take the back at that point - the "lap sau" accomplishes a similar thing to a wrestlers arm drag, from a different contact point.

[Mulong]

Thanks for the responses (I’m actually familiar with that) … Truly appreciate these exchanges, because we are now engaging with knowledge and simply sharing insight with others who aren't familiar.

This type of forum didn’t exist when I started eons ago and that is why I’m taken back by narrower mindlessness in this day in age. Back then we didn’t know better, because it was the days before VHS and and styles/shifu didn't intermingle that much, but now most concepts have been published or recorded on some form of video for all to see; therefore, making it easier to learn.

In closing, let's find the links that connect us not separate us which is so easy to do... :)

[Vajramusti]

Elbow wraps are the best, because they are obtainable; for example, 摊手 taan sau/tanshou (spread arm) is great posture for qinna and even shuai:

別肘 biht jaau/biezhou (pinning elbow)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mulong- FWIW- wing chun IMO is opportunistic- awareness of the line relationships and the most efficient solution to self defense at that moment(timing). There are choices. In your illustration- the person is committed to doing qinna..he may not need to be--flexibility and open mindedness and good wing chun structural development(joints, ligaments) and coordination(linking) and footwork (huen ma for instance) can result in different outcomes. If qinna or shuai is interfered with you can biu ma and elbow and possibly follow up qinna or shuai..not to be a prisoner of a technique.

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

I'm sure that particular example is mainstream enough that most WCK people on this board can relate to it.

If people could stick to the fundamental WCK learning in many cases they'd be fine. It's when they try to take those and turn it into the "one system to defeat all systems" and stretch outside their fundamentals they get into some real problem areas. Like you did when you posted the last images.

As an extension to my lap sau example, I've also commonly seen people teach and try to practice following up the lap sau by keeping the wrist grip and place a forearm behind above the elbow to use a modified control / joint lock. While that could work on an untrained opponent, it's not high percentage against a trained opponent, as it opens up a turning elbow and several other counters.

My overall point on here is to stick to what WCK does best and with those fundamentals. Don't try to get into the mindset that WCK is great at everything - it simply doesn't cover enough to be.

On the other end of things, BJJ people have problems in this area too. I recently heard an example of a BJJ person doing a challenge match with a WCK person, saying they were going to knock them out. The BJJ guy ended up with a broken nose.

Another example - I was talking to Ralek Gracie a couple of months ago (Ralek beat Sakuraba last year in a MMA match). He attributed his win to sticking to the fundamentals he knew. He also said he thought Royce got beat by Matt Hughes because he was trying to cross-train striking too much and got out of his game.

It's a good overall lesson.

[duende]

Students are already familiarizing themselves with the "feel" of controlling centerline and how to connect to and influence the opponents COG through chi sau and/or kiu sau bridge contact. IMO the "na" concepts are a little bit extra grip or "bite" on the opponents bridge to control them. Explain the use and the limitations as well - that you MAY be able to completely offbalance the opponent and take them to the ground, or MAY be able to move to a standing joint lock, but that you do not want to sacrifice position and advantageous facing to do so. The preferred approach would be to move your opponent to a position where they are open to attack with finishing strikes from close quarters and facing advantage.

Lap sau is a perfect example. If you have good energy, timing, and get a good "bite" on the grip, your opponent is left with their back and shoulder exposed and you in perfect balance. You can strike with little chance of the opponent either blocking or countering and striking back. You can punch to targets on the back, head, attack the back of the knee with a foot, etc. But you don't want to attempt some Steven Seagal-esque complicated aikido type continuation of a wrist-lock set up from the "bite" on your lap sau grip, even if it looks cool on TV. If you are skilled at grappling, you could also take the back at that point - the "lap sau" accomplishes a similar thing to a wrestlers arm drag, from a different contact point.

+1

Very well said.



Youknowwho,

With all due respect, the vids and attached images are not what I was referring to in my prior posts.

Such techniques are idealistic in nature and will not work against an opponent with any skill level.

They all can easily be shut down with some simple sinking of bridge contact and applied forward pressure.

Not to mention, that that all the "chin na" techniques demonstrated would leave you wide open to upper gate attacks. (IE getting hit in the head)



IF you have to struggle to pull off a technique, then chances are the window timing or opening where that technique would be effective... will be long gone.

This goes against many WC principles. Techniques do not lead the over-all strategy and concepts, but instead support it. Whenever these fundamental principles are in conflict, you most likely will find yourself in trouble.

[faxiapreta]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mulong- FWIW- wing chun IMO is opportunistic- awareness of the line relationships and the most efficient solution to self defense at that moment(timing). There are choices.

Which would apply to any system.



In your illustration- the person is committed to doing qinna..he may not need to be--flexibility and open mindedness and good wing chun structural development(joints, ligaments) and coordination(linking) and footwork (huen ma for instance) can result in different outcomes. If qinna or shuai is interfered with you can biu ma and elbow and possibly follow up qinna or shuai..not to be a prisoner of a technique.

The real problem with those illustrations is not the commitment or lack thereof. It is the fact that there's no delivery system that would allow one to get to those positions in the first place. The fact that they wouldn't work is secondary.

[WC1277]

Looking at WC from a purely structure standpoint, I was always under the impression that it was of the same family as BJJ. Just one's on the ground w/ limited strikes and the other is standing up with emphasis on strikes. Both are focused on disruption of the opponents center of gravity and manipulation of joints. WC being manipulation of joints if applicable. While in training you can apply locks to a willing opponent, in real application against a resisting opponent, those locks become arm breaks instead. Anyone who says WC doesn't have this significantly misunderstand WC structure.

[faxiapreta]

Looking at WC from a purely structure standpoint, I was always under the impression that it was of the same family as BJJ. Just one's on the ground w/ limited strikes and the other is standing up with emphasis on strikes. Both are focused on disruption of the opponents center of gravity and manipulation of joints. WC being manipulation of joints if applicable. While in training you can apply locks to a willing opponent, in real application against a resisting opponent, those locks become arm breaks instead. Anyone who says WC doesn't have this significantly misunderstand WC structure.

Anyone who thinks you can simply break arms while standing significantly misunderstands the mechanics of joint manipulation.

And no, BJJ is not much like any standing system.

[faxiapreta]

I don't mean breaking bones, I mean joint dislocation, etc.

Bone breaking, joint dislocation. Neither one works consistently standing. That's why you see mostly joint locks against resisting opponents on the ground.


I don't think bjj and WC are the same, they just go along the same guidelines. They both use the resistance of the opponent to their advantage and find holes through or around each others "structure" which is largely dependant on center of gravity.

Pretty much any style does this.



They both use elbows to either manipulate or manipulate with, and whether you you agree with me or not, they both take advantage of an opponents extended arm, hence controlling by using weakness of elbow structure against them

There are probably many more differences than there are similarities, which is why you won't be able to use WC nearly as effectively on the ground as you would BJJ.

[Wayfaring]

No, I agree with you that it's not easy and is by no means consistently effective. I'm just saying that WC naturally has it in the system because of the way the structure is applied.

No, it does not. as faixa said, that only happens consistenly on the ground, where WC doesn't train. Are you listening?


Also, both systems rely on biomechanics and those laws, of course, are going to be different on the ground then standing up. Gravity is working in a completely different way.

meaning they are not the same and there are different fundamentals in play.



Samuel Kwok and one of the Gracie's did a seminar together because the concepts ARE very similar though. You can find it on YouTube and I think on Kwok's website
Complete inaccuracy. Here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3jJ-lb7N8A

Carlson did not do a seminar with Samuel Kwok because the concepts are similar. He did one because it was a paid seminar and Kwok put it together. It was a simple business arrangement. Ask any BJJ professor how similar he thinks WC is to BJJ. They will say they are very different.

[GlennR]

Students are already familiarizing themselves with the "feel" of controlling centerline and how to connect to and influence the opponents COG through chi sau and/or kiu sau bridge contact. IMO the "na" concepts are a little bit extra grip or "bite" on the opponents bridge to control them. Explain the use and the limitations as well - that you MAY be able to completely offbalance the opponent and take them to the ground, or MAY be able to move to a standing joint lock, but that you do not want to sacrifice position and advantageous facing to do so. The preferred approach would be to move your opponent to a position where they are open to attack with finishing strikes from close quarters and facing advantage.

Lap sau is a perfect example. If you have good energy, timing, and get a good "bite" on the grip, your opponent is left with their back and shoulder exposed and you in perfect balance. You can strike with little chance of the opponent either blocking or countering and striking back. You can punch to targets on the back, head, attack the back of the knee with a foot, etc. But you don't want to attempt some Steven Seagal-esque complicated aikido type continuation of a wrist-lock set up from the "bite" on your lap sau grip, even if it looks cool on TV. If you are skilled at grappling, you could also take the back at that point - the "lap sau" accomplishes a similar thing to a wrestlers arm drag, from a different contact point.

Well said Wayfaring.
A very balanced realistic view of what opportunities WC may open for you in regards to grappling, but aaso acknowledging that once there, there are better options from a WC point of view.
If you want to take that opportuntity further into the grapplers realm... add some grappling training to your WC

Bravo Sir!

[Mulong]

If I may say, we have progressed from no qinna to the possibility of qinna existing within yongchunquan...

At the end na is just another skill which works from time to time, but it is good to possess when the time calls for it. :)

[Vajramusti]

If I may say, we have progressed from no qinna to the possibility of qinna existing within yongchunquan...

At the end na is just another skill which works from time to time, but it is good to possess when the time calls for it. :)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good way to put it, me thinks.

joy chaudhuri

[omarthefish]

Anyone who thinks you can simply break arms while standing significantly misunderstands the mechanics of joint manipulation.

And no, BJJ is not much like any standing system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR1AmIsejDM

For a standing Kimura, skip to the 4 minute mark and consider yourself pwned. ;)

Standing arm bar at 10 seconds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leecBqLeQdg

double pwned!

More famously at 2 minutes in (Shinya Aoki vs. Keith Wisniewski):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_718dOW09k

So that's one example from a Jujistu comp, one from Judo and one from MMA.

[faxiapreta]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR1AmIsejDM

For a standing Kimura, skip to the 4 minute mark and consider yourself pwned. ;)

Standing arm bar at 10 seconds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leecBqLeQdg

double pwned!

More famously at 2 minutes in (Shinya Aoki vs. Keith Wisniewski):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_718dOW09k

So that's one example from a Jujistu comp, one from Judo and one from MMA.

Do standing arm locks happen? Yes, very occasionally... about 1 out of every 10,000 matches.

This happens also: http://newswithattitude.com/boy-killed-after-hit-by-ball-at-little-league-game/... about once every 200,000 games.

Good luck trying to pull any of that off in an actual premeditated way.

People blow out their ACL knee ligaments in fights far more often than they get hurt with arm manipulations. Expecting to pull off an arm break or dislocation is even more stupid that expecting your opponent to blow out his knee when he is trying to take you down.

[goju]

Good luck trying to pull any of that off in an actual premeditated way.

So because the locks were taken advantage of "in the moment" that takes away from them?LoL A good fighter reacts to the circumstances quickly. and that's exactly what they did.



Their locks worked in particular because they did them from an already attached
position and one thats bound to happen often ( clinching).

[faxiapreta]

So because the locks were taken advantage of "in the moment" that takes away from them?LoL A good fighter reacts to the circumstances quickly. and that's exactly what they did.


No, it doesn't take away from them. But it also doesn't make them anything but very low percentage.


Their locks worked in particular because they did them from an already attached
position and one thats bound to happen often ( clinching).

Clinches happen in almost every fight. Standing arm locks hardly ever happen.

[wenshu]

Every time some one offers evidence against one of your absurdly reductionist arguments you change the criteria to conveniently fit some amorphous standard of proof that you never actually make clear in the first place.

Have you been getting your ass whupped in the gym a little too much?

I bet if you applied some of that criticuuuuuuhhhhhhl thunkin you could come up with a more effective high percentage method of giving your inferiority complex a handjob.

[faxiapreta]

Every time some one offers evidence against one of your absurdly reductionist arguments you change the criteria to conveniently fit some amorphous standard of proof that you never actually make clear in the first place.

Why do you think that out of thousands and thousands of matches, there are only a few examples of standing arm locks?

Do you not think that people would be using them if they worked?

Don't you think people would much rather win a fight standing up, rather than spending all that time going to the ground, getting position, setting up locks, and then, finally finishing the opponent after all that?

[k gledhill]

Why do you think that out of thousands and thousands of matches, there are only a few examples of standing arm locks?

Do you not think that people would be using them if they worked?

Don't you think people would much rather win a fight standing up, rather than spending all that time going to the ground, getting position, setting up locks, and then, finally finishing the opponent after all that?

Im no arm breaking expert but I would suggest maybe that the speeds required to make standing arm breaks effective , also make them straight to break, no tap-out .
Uncontrollable inertia to make them work is also not allowing a tap-out.

You dont see them in competitions maybe for that reason...just saying.

IOW what we see in the clips is 'accidental' from uncontrolled speeds and inertia in a given moment of availability. If the fighter slowed down to 'not break' the arm, he would render the action useless while standing, easily allowing the opponent to move with the force.

whos going to develop that as a sport ?

[omarthefish]

This goes out to Faxipettiecoat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buQyAZW30lk

[Wayfaring]

Im no arm breaking expert but I would suggest maybe that the speeds required to make standing arm breaks effective , also make them straight to break, no tap-out .
Uncontrollable inertia to make them work is also not allowing a tap-out.

You dont see them in competitions maybe for that reason...just saying.

IOW what we see in the clips is 'accidental' from uncontrolled speeds and inertia in a given moment of availability. If the fighter slowed down to 'not break' the arm, he would render the action useless while standing, easily allowing the opponent to move with the force.

Yes, in all 3 cases the exploding power broke an arm. That can happen standing up - doesn't a whole lot but can. It happens on the ground even more - exploding power breaking something.


whos going to develop that as a sport ?
unfortunately a whole lot more people in local grappling competitions than you would expect. somehow if you put a little stupid circle of metal out in front of someone that costs about $2, it turns them into spastastic d1ckh3ads.

I think I have not attended a grappling competition where there isn't some kind of injury. Not a large percentage of the competitors, however usually at least 2 or 3.

[faxiapreta]

Im no arm breaking expert but I would suggest maybe that the speeds required to make standing arm breaks effective , also make them straight to break, no tap-out .
Uncontrollable inertia to make them work is also not allowing a tap-out.

You dont see them in competitions maybe for that reason...just saying.

IOW what we see in the clips is 'accidental' from uncontrolled speeds and inertia in a given moment of availability. If the fighter slowed down to 'not break' the arm, he would render the action useless while standing, easily allowing the opponent to move with the force.

whos going to develop that as a sport ?

It's already developed. It's part of the sport. Everyone goes full force at full speed.

[k gledhill]

It's already developed. It's part of the sport. Everyone goes full force at full speed.

Standing ?

[faxiapreta]

Standing ?

Yes, both standing and on the ground.

[k gledhill]

Yes, both standing and on the ground.

I thought you said standing arm doesnt work...?

[faxiapreta]

I thought you said standing arm doesnt work...?

It doesn't. That's why you don't see it other than the occasional fluke. If it worked people would be doing it. It's not against the rules and they are already attempting to do as much damage within the rules as they can.

[k gledhill]

It doesn't. That's why you don't see it other than the occasional fluke. If it worked people would be doing it. It's not against the rules and they are already attempting to do as much damage within the rules as they can.

Its not against the rules to break an arm without any restraint ? standing or ground ?

[faxiapreta]

Its not against the rules to break an arm without any restraint ? standing or ground ?

Nope. It's perfectly legal in MMA, submission grappling, BJJ and SAMBO, although you have to let go of the hold if/when the opponent taps.

[omarthefish]

See, the thing is, most folks are reasonably decent human beings and tend to have strong subconscious or even fully conscious inhibitions against savage brutality like snapping arms or crushing a persons larynx or whatever. The few that don't tend to be either societal outcasts or maybe in some sort of para-military work. "Enhanced" interrelation or something. In a mugging or maybe if you caught someone trying to rape your daughter, those inhibitions might completely disappear for a bit but in an MMA match, the vast majority of the time, it's pretty professional. Dana White likes to stir things up to sell more tickets but many retired fighters have said point blank that their contract required them to do a certain amount of **** talking.

Point being, even with the requirement to let go of someone if he taps, if the fighters really wanted to, it would be totally possible to break the limb before the guy had a chance to tap. It's just that an arm bar on the ground allows for so much control that you can give the guy a chance to "say uncle". It's even more that way for ankle locks. They are notorious for being able to break a guys leg before the persons even realized how far it had gone. That's why many schools don't allow ankle locks for relative beginners, they tend not to realize when it's time to tap.

Getting back to why you don't see many stand up arm bars...

Human nature. Their not that much harder to pull off compared to lying arm bars. Main thing is, you need to go in with a real intent to break the guys arm. There's no chance to control him and effectively warn him to give up or you'll break his arm. If you notice, all 3 examples I posted happened suddenly and without warning. If any of those 3 guys had paused to wait for a tap, the "victim" would have been able to roll out, squirm out or otherwise neutralize it.

With gi wrestling they are even easier to apply because every time a guy goes for a lapel grip, he has done half the set up for you. That's why it's such a standard technique in Shuai Jiao. It's illegal...but standard. Everyone knows how to do it.

[k gledhill]

See, the thing is, most folks are reasonably decent human beings and tend to have strong subconscious or even fully conscious inhibitions against savage brutality like snapping arms or crushing a persons larynx or whatever. The few that don't tend to be either societal outcasts or maybe in some sort of para-military work. "Enhanced" interrelation or something. In a mugging or maybe if you caught someone trying to rape your daughter, those inhibitions might completely disappear for a bit but in an MMA match, the vast majority of the time, it's pretty professional. Dana White likes to stir things up to sell more tickets but many retired fighters have said point blank that their contract required them to do a certain amount of **** talking.

Point being, even with the requirement to let go of someone if he taps, if the fighters really wanted to, it would be totally possible to break the limb before the guy had a chance to tap. It's just that an arm bar on the ground allows for so much control that you can give the guy a chance to "say uncle". It's even more that way for ankle locks. They are notorious for being able to break a guys leg before the persons even realized how far it had gone. That's why many schools don't allow ankle locks for relative beginners, they tend not to realize when it's time to tap.

Getting back to why you don't see many stand up arm bars...

Human nature. Their not that much harder to pull off compared to lying arm bars. Main thing is, you need to go in with a real intent to break the guys arm. There's no chance to control him and effectively warn him to give up or you'll break his arm. If you notice, all 3 examples I posted happened suddenly and without warning. If any of those 3 guys had paused to wait for a tap, the "victim" would have been able to roll out, squirm out or otherwise neutralize it.

With gi wrestling they are even easier to apply because every time a guy goes for a lapel grip, he has done half the set up for you. That's why it's such a standard technique in Shuai Jiao. It's illegal...but standard. Everyone knows how to do it.

Yeah Gi's would seem to make the arm come to you , rather than you have to look...
Granted the ground would give control compared with standing...my point. thanks

[Frost]

Im no arm breaking expert but I would suggest maybe that the speeds required to make standing arm breaks effective , also make them straight to break, no tap-out .
Uncontrollable inertia to make them work is also not allowing a tap-out.

You dont see them in competitions maybe for that reason...just saying.

IOW what we see in the clips is 'accidental' from uncontrolled speeds and inertia in a given moment of availability. If the fighter slowed down to 'not break' the arm, he would render the action useless while standing, easily allowing the opponent to move with the force.

whos going to develop that as a sport ?

this would be nice if it was true unfortunatly this view is held by those that have not competed in grappling the reality is different

I have seen knees blown out, arms brocken ankles snapped, shoulders wrecked etc, almost every comp has a big injury and thats just at local amature level, wnt to guess how much harder they go at it at national and pro MMA level?

In competition you are there to win, the opponent is responsible for his safety you apply the lock as hard and fast as you can, their is a reason that out of eevry kimura done standing to escape a rear body lock (which you see a lot because its a high percentage escape) you can only find about 3 examples of the arm breaking, there is a reson that you can only find about 2 examples of standing locks resulting in a break in the thousands of MMA fights on you tube, anyone want to guess what that reson is?

[Frost]

See, the thing is, most folks are reasonably decent human beings and tend to have strong subconscious or even fully conscious inhibitions against savage brutality like snapping arms or crushing a persons larynx or whatever. The few that don't tend to be either societal outcasts or maybe in some sort of para-military work. "Enhanced" interrelation or something. In a mugging or maybe if you caught someone trying to rape your daughter, those inhibitions might completely disappear for a bit but in an MMA match, the vast majority of the time, it's pretty professional. Dana White likes to stir things up to sell more tickets but many retired fighters have said point blank that their contract required them to do a certain amount of **** talking.

Point being, even with the requirement to let go of someone if he taps, if the fighters really wanted to, it would be totally possible to break the limb before the guy had a chance to tap. It's just that an arm bar on the ground allows for so much control that you can give the guy a chance to "say uncle". It's even more that way for ankle locks. They are notorious for being able to break a guys leg before the persons even realized how far it had gone. That's why many schools don't allow ankle locks for relative beginners, they tend not to realize when it's time to tap.

Getting back to why you don't see many stand up arm bars...

Human nature. Their not that much harder to pull off compared to lying arm bars. Main thing is, you need to go in with a real intent to break the guys arm. There's no chance to control him and effectively warn him to give up or you'll break his arm. If you notice, all 3 examples I posted happened suddenly and without warning. If any of those 3 guys had paused to wait for a tap, the "victim" would have been able to roll out, squirm out or otherwise neutralize it.

With gi wrestling they are even easier to apply because every time a guy goes for a lapel grip, he has done half the set up for you. That's why it's such a standard technique in Shuai Jiao. It's illegal...but standard. Everyone knows how to do it.

if only this was true i dot know how many pro MMA fighters you hang with but i find it hard to beleive that they are ready to knock someone out, break their ribs with kicks throw them on their head, soccer kick a downed opponent in the head etc to put them out of action but suddently dont have the willingness to break the arm......look at hughes v gracie that arm was hyper extended not being nice their was he. Just for the record I have known several pros all nice guys, all fighting for a pay check and heir future who would not hesitate to break a limb in the ring, just like they wouldnt hesitate to knock you out with a kick........its their future and its up to the opponent to escape or the ref to stop the fight

The simple reason you can only find a few examples of standing locks resulting in breaks but alot more of ground locks resulting in breaks is because on the ground they work better its that simple

[omarthefish]

I've only met a couple of professional fighters here and there. All the one's I met were really nice, down to earth people. They did not fight with malice. They fought within the rules and when you see the occasional guy who does seem to be fighting "mean", like in the Aoki vs. Wisniewski fight, it's actually controversial.

My experience is that the higher you go up the ranks, the more professional the attitudes are. Of course, when steroids enter the picture, people change a bit but most of the top guys are perfect gentleman.

The Hughes/Gracie match is a **** poor example for your argument. Matt Hughes hyperextended it because Royce wouldn't tap. I've actually read some articles saying that Matt Hughes really is a punk but even so, I've seen nothing of him publicly too suggest that if Royce had just tapped, he would not have let him go. Some of the Gracies have a thing about tapping. With the whole family pride on the line and whatnot many of them would rather have a broken arm than a broken record.

Soccer kick a downed opponent in the head? Are you kidding? Since kicking to the head of a downed opponent is generally illegal that would just get the fighter disqualified. Since their goal is to WIN that makes no sense. Take away the TV cameras and when fights end, fighters hug. You actually still get to see that in Sanda, K1 and many other venues. As soon as the fight it over...it's over. Uncontrolled, violent sociopaths generally lack the discipline and social skills to make it to the top of the profession.

Always exceptions but that's the general rule.

In any case, my original point stands untouched. Faxipants made this claim:


Anyone who thinks you can simply break arms while standing significantly misunderstands the mechanics of joint manipulation.
That claim has been falsified. We are only arguing about how difficult it is to accomplish. It clearly can, and has, been done on numerous occasions against highly trained professional fight athletes.

[YouKnowWho]

Faxipants made this claim:

Anyone who thinks you can simply break arms while standing significantly misunderstands the mechanics of joint manipulation.

That claim has been falsified. We are only arguing about how difficult it is to accomplish. It clearly can, and has, been done on numerous occasions against highly trained professional fight athletes.
Just to futher support your statement here.

Back in the 70th, in one of my teacher's Chicago workshop, he met a boxer. The boxer said, "If I use boxing against you, what can you do?" My teacher said, "Come and try me." My teacher started his attack first. He used his XingYi continuous kicks to force the boxer to back up against the wall. The moment that boxer committed on his punch at my teacher's face (It was important that my teacher wanted to make sure that boxer committed on his punch and not just a fake punch), my teacher leaned his head back with his body in almost a 45 degree backward angle. His right hand caught on top of the boxer's forearm, he then rotated his body, pressed his other arm under the boxer's punching arm (like a cross lapel hold), spin his body, and "cracked" the boxer's elbow joint.

The move looks just like the following pictures but in combat speed.

http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/7436/cracking1.jpg

Next day the boxer came to his workshop with bandage on his arm but with good attitude.

I swear to God that every single word that I have said here are 100% truth. There were many eye witness that day. Too bad that the whole challenge fight was not recorded on 7 mm camera (there were no video tape camera back then).

I just want all our TCMA lovers to have faith in our TCMA. please don't lose faith just because few MMA guys don't believe in our TCMA. It's your skill against your opponent's skill. Everything is "relative" and not "absolute".

[k gledhill]

If you you tube you can see standing arm bar 101 BJJ shown standing, and more...not just a few clips.
I would agree that sportsmanship rather than ego, accounts for LESS 'intentional' arm injuries than some other ego driven opinions.